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20mph speed limit called for in towns

Should a 20mph limit be (sensibly) implemented in towns?


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I like the response from Nigel Humphries, from the Association of British Drivers

"All you achieve by making people drive down the road looking at their speedometer is 10 times as many deaths and that's before you cause more accidents because people aren't looking where they're going".

You've got to laugh. Going slower will cause 10 TIMES AS MANY DEATHS as drivers are not able to judge their speed at 20. Hmmm


Another quality argument from the ABD. A while a go I looked at the ABD website - they refuted an argument that a new road will cause environmental damage by putting a picture of a dual carriage way with a caption saying something like "note the size of the road in comparison to the rest of the countryside"
 
agricola said:
It would be nice if such data was easily available on their website. .

London Cycling Campaign (London Cycling Campaign, 1999)

(1) Reducing fatalities
According to the government report Killing Speed and Saving Lives, a pedestrian hit by a car at 40mph has only a 15% chance of surviving. At 30mph this chance increases to 55%. But at 20mph the chance of survival increases to 95%.
A total of 226 people were killed on London's roads in 1998, 277 in 1997 and 251 in 1996. The majority of those killed each year are vulnerable road users (pedestrians and cyclists).

(2) Reducing casualties
Lowering the speed limit to 20mph reduces total road traffic casualty levels by around 60% and child casualties by around 70% according to studies in both Britain and Denmark. This would mean at least 25,000 fewer road traffic casualties in London each year.

(3) Reducing costs
The total number of reported Greater London road traffic casualties (fatalities included) during 1997 cost £2.17 billion at June 1998 prices (using DETR figures for calculating traffic casualty costs) lowering the speed limit to 20mph would save London over £1 billion per year (four times the mayor's estimated annual transport budget).

(4) Reducing congestion

(a) Congestion on urban roads is governed mainly by the capacity of junctions, and on urban roads "the capacity of a junction tends to be higher when vehicles approach it at a low speed than at a higher one."
Time savings at junctions gained through lower speeds in Vaxjo, Sweden, led to journey times being reduced overall; where 30kph (20mph) zones have been introduced in Germany, drivers spend 15% less time sitting stationary in their vehicles.
In such a situation reducing the standard speed limit to 20mph will not increase journey times, but will prevent speeding between junctions.

(b) Traffic collisions are a major cause of congestion in London; lower speeds lead to far fewer crashes and thus smoother traffic flow. An experiment in west London restricting speeds through use of speed cameras ascribed time savings to precisely this reduction in collisions.

(c) A safer environment on the roads is the key to turning more people to cycling and walking, thereby reducing the number of motor vehicles and reducing congestion. The introduction of Brighton's Hanover 20mph zone in summer 1995 saw a 22% reduction in motor vehicles, while as a result of the cycle-friendly towns scheme in West Germany, cycle use rose by 50% between 1981 and 1991.

As Parliament noted in the Road Traffic Reduction Act 1997, "An increase in cycling's modal share could help reduce both traffic congestion and pollution."

(5) Reducing Pollution
New forecasts show that 500 of London's roads are set to break government nitrogen oxide safety levels over the next five years.
Lower traffic speeds reduce air pollution by improving traffic flow: "Exhaust emissions always contain larger amounts of carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides when a vehicle is accelerating or decelerating, or when the engine is idling, than when the vehicle is cruising."
Where 30kph zones were introduced in Germany, car drivers on average had to change gear 12% less often, used their brakes 14% less often and required 12% less petrol. One study of the effects of traffic calming schemes on exhaust emissions revealed reductions of 30% in nitrogen oxide, 20% in carbon monoxide and 10% in hydrocarbons.
The same holds true for noise pollution, "with a lower speed always resulting in a lower noise level". Again, the major benefits may come from the smoother flow gained from lower speeds, as ~ large proportion of noise is generated through acceleration.

(6) Meeting public demand
In a telephone poll run by Carlton TV's London Tonight programme on 25 January 1999, 81% of the 10,000 respondents voted in favour of a London-wide 20mph speed limit, and only 19% against. Where 20mph zones have already been introduced in London they have been widely welcomed (as they have elsewhere throughout Britain); "overwhelming support" from the public led to the Kew zone's being made permanent in December 1992.

(7) Agreeing with the experts
The only major study to date of optimal speeds in Britain - Speed Control and Transport Policy, by Stephen Plowden and Mayer Hillman (1996) - concluded that 20mph should indeed be the standard urban speed limit, although it argued that 15mph might be justified in university towns or where there are large numbers of tourists (both of which apply to London).
 
Attica said:
I say leave it as it is but also add 8am to 8pm for 30mph, and allow 40 mph limit during the night.

I actually see your logic in some of that but wouldn't go as far as to agree with it BUT I am fucking fed up of driving home from work at 1am and getting stuck behind some drunk cunt driving at 25mph and putting the brakes on everytime they think they're hitting 30. Bloody dangerous.

More checks on drinkers and spliffheads late at night I say. And that goes for cyclists too!
 
From one of the reports behind the 20 mph figure:

Certainly there is a danger in focusing solely on lower speed limits as a means of reducing accidents. Other factors that contribute to road related deaths and injuries include alcohol, tiredness, and poor driving skills. Traffic calming measures and education to improve driver behaviour are also an essential parts of road safety. Education should focus not only on drivers but also on parents and children.

Moreover, imposing lower speed limits in isolation will have only limited impact. The fact that 70% of all drivers currently exceed the 30 mph limit reflects the relatively lenient attitude of the courts towards driving offences. Proper enforcement is as important as setting the limits in the first place. Nevertheless, if local authorities use lower speed limits sensibly, as part of an overall strategy, then the 20 mph speed limit offers a new opportunity for tackling the problem of child deaths and injuries on the road.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1127572
 
editor said:
Assuming that is implemented with a degree of intelligence and not just a blanket restriction regardless of the local road, I'm all for it.

Let's hear your verdict - poll coming!
odd that when i mentioned this to you some time back it was then you chose to call it a flight of fancy and a stream of nonsense ... why the change of heart... (see also hybrid engines cars, electric/hydrogen engines and other such improvements to roads and cars...ad infinitum ad nasuim ...)

Has the idea grown on you now then...
 
citydreams said:
London Cycling Campaign (London Cycling Campaign, 1999)
another nay sayer now endorsing this too.. hey ho... but these petrol head are totally with out idea and make baseless comments :rolleyes:

shame on both of you...
 
Fine by me so long as it's applied sensibly.

I don't look at the speedo much, I just make sure I have a decent number of petrolheads tailgating me.

Side streets should be 15mph.
 
Crispy said:
It's not the accident rate, it's the damage done in said accident. Reducing the speed of an onject involved in a collision reduces the energy transmitted reduces the harm done.

just for those who forgot physics:

kinetic energy is proportional to the square of speed. So 20->30mph more than doubles the amount of energy, which has to be dissipated on impact.
 
No relevant poll option for:

Every road should have a speed limit appropriate to it's own particular circumstances. That may be 20mph in some areas (e.g. outside schools at school times, in shopping streets, in residential areas) but it may equally be 30mph or 40mph (probably as a result of variations in road size and design).

Where circumstances vary with times of day or days of week (e.g. outside schools) the limits should be variable (if possible) or enforced with common sense and discretion if not.

It would make more sense to enforce the 30mph limits on residentiual roads instead of concentrating cameras only on A roads - maybe then there would be no need to change anything ...
 
detective-boy said:
It would make more sense to enforce the 30mph limits on residentiual roads instead of concentrating cameras only on A roads - maybe then there would be no need to change anything ...
I agree. Alas the traffic police seem to always park their speed traps on wide, safe ring roads. Catching people doing 40mph on roads that it's perfectly safe to drive that speed on. I have never seen a police speed trap on a small residential road.
 
chymaera said:
There appears to be a flaw in the argument for extending 20mph limits:-
http://www.dft.gov.uk/172974/173025/221412/221549/227755/285672/WebTables120.xls
In 20mph zones in 2006 17% of injury crashes were fatal or serious
In 30mph zones in 2006 13% of injury crashes were fatal or serious
That logic is reverse. There is no way of knowing if the differences in accident rates are due to the reduced speed, or other factors (which caused the low speed limit to be introduced in the first place)
 
Crispy said:
That logic is reverse. There is no way of knowing if the differences in accident rates are due to the reduced speed, or other factors (which caused the low speed limit to be introduced in the first place)


I would have thought if time has shown the acturial accident rates are counter intuitive in current 20mph zones, it would be most unwise to extend 20mph limits until it is determined why this is.
 
chilango said:
people should just slow down their pace of life too.

polar-bear.jpg
 
citydreams said:
The numbers are not comparable. The 20mph ksi reported are likely to be heavily biased by joyriding.

Find a 20mph zone that has increased road traffic accidents.

They are statistics from 20mph zones.
 
chymaera said:
That data is old, the data I quoted was national data for last year.

..but is statistically meaningless. As pointed out above, to which you haven't replied, the DfT figures do not show how changes to a zone's enforcement affects road traffic accidents.

And you haven't been able to respond to the fact that the very small numbers of ksi's you quote can be heavily biased by joyriding incidents. Excluding these then 30 mph figures are higher as a percentage of accidents.
 
What we need to see is statistics on areas before and after the introduction of a 20mph limit, not comparisons of existing 20 and 30 zones. Which is what citydreams' linked study showed. A large reduction.

I can't think of what mechanism would translate slower traffic to more accidents.
 
citydreams said:
..but is statistically meaningless. As pointed out above, to which you haven't replied, the DfT figures do not show how changes to a zone's enforcement affects road traffic accidents.

And you haven't been able to respond to the fact that the very small numbers of ksi's you quote can be heavily biased by joyriding incidents. Excluding these then 30 mph figures are higher as a percentage of accidents.


I am merely questioning whether it is wise to impose blanket 20mph limits when the available stats show results counter intuitive to those expected.
(It does not surprise me about a rise in accident rates in 20mph limits. There is one outside a school in a town near me and the children don't even check for traffic when they cross the road now.)
 
Crispy said:
I can't think of what mechanism would translate slower traffic to more accidents.
Drivers falling asleep at the wheel from longer, more boring journeys ;)
..tho I doubt it would be significant unless it was a 20 mph limit on all roads :)
 
chymaera said:
I am merely questioning whether it is wise to impose blanket 20mph limits when the available stats show results counter intuitive to those expected.
(It does not surprise me about a rise in accident rates in 20mph limits. There is one outside a school in a town near me and the children don't even check for traffic when they cross the road now.)

The stats you linked to compared currently existing 20mph and 30mph zones. NOT the results of applying a 20mph to an area that had previously been 30mph. That is the critical thing to examine. What changing to 20mph does.

I suspect that areas that have been changed to 20 had that change applied because they were already accident prone - eg. outside schools, narrow residential etc.
 
chymaera said:
There appears to be a flaw in the argument for extending 20mph limits:-
http://www.dft.gov.uk/172974/173025/221412/221549/227755/285672/WebTables120.xls
In 20mph zones in 2006 17% of injury crashes were fatal or serious
In 30mph zones in 2006 13% of injury crashes were fatal or serious

Interesting stats. But break them down and they do not reveal a flaw in the argument.

1. The figures do not bare any relation to the actual speed of the vehicle at the time of the crash.
2. I would guess that a 20mph zone is inherantly less safe than a 30. Regardless of what speed you are allowed to travel
3. Figures probably relate to people in the vehicle as well as people being hit. So at higher speeds the crash does not involve pedestrains - you are safer in the car than being run into by a car

These figures do not support the argument that a 20 zone results in more fatalities.
 
Crispy said:
I can't think of what mechanism would translate slower traffic to more accidents.

Lowering the speed limit without enforcing it, probably.

As was said in one the reports that set this off, at least as important as speed limit reduction is effective punishment of those who break it.
 
Crispy said:
The stats you linked to compared currently existing 20mph and 30mph zones. NOT the results of applying a 20mph to an area that had previously been 30mph. .


I think you will find ALL 20mph zones were previously 30mph zones.
The data is so conterintuitive as to warrant not imposing blanket 20mph zones until much more research is done.
 
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