1999 London Nail-bombings Investigation Documentary 8/1: one to watch

[ViolentPanda]

Mmm, but in that instance they were engaged in a long war with an armed force. In this instance it's hard to see the point.

Except insofar as those aforementioned organs of the secret state have, post-the fall of the "Iron Curtain" and pre 11th september 2001, had to justify their existence and budget more thoroughly.
Complicity of any sort (even through omission rather than commission) would be "helpful" in such justification, especially if it harmed people who by virtue of their race or sexuality were seen as members of "marginal" communities. Just think of all that lovely publicity.

I realise that I'm setting myself up to be branded as a "conspiraloon", but it's hardly as if the history of our security services isn't already replete with tales of agents provocateurs, is it? Vernon Kell would be proud.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I think they'd run the far greater risk of having their budgets cut if complicity were to be demonstrated. Even in war situations, operations like this are difficult to justify with the public or parliament (as in NI, or with GAL here) and they'd have no way of justifying it in these circumstances. They would all go to prison, which doesn't happen if you ambush IRA men even if you shoot civilians in the process.

 

[rich!]

Although I admit that, statistically, the cross-over between Larry's subscriber base and the membership of urban is likely to be small.

*raises hand and waves pile of old NFB's*

given that Larry's been selling NFB at the Bookfair every year for ... oooh, years now;
and given that NFB has at least some distribution in alternative bookshops;

I can't be the *only* person here who has copies, can I?

 

[ViolentPanda]

i suppose you lot all believe the pile of crap searchlight peaddled over the bombs too

Most rational people know to take "Searchlight" with a pinch of salt.

That doesn't mean treating everything they print as a pile of crap, it means checking their sources and unpacking their spin

if you had read the articles that o'hara makes reference too you might understand the points he is making on this issue

I've read Larry's articles, I understand them and believe they are credible. That doesn't, however mean I agree with the conclusions he draws. I think he's pointing in the right direction, though.

IMHO the state allowed the nail bombs to happen for its own ends i dont think they realised the true consequence of what might have happened with the last bomb and the loss of life but the brixton and brick lanes were allowed to occur

Why do you think they'd actually care about the consequences, as long as those consequences didn't present those organs of the state that were involved in a bad light?

And who were the two men who desterted there car in mansfield with bomb making equipment on the day copeland was arrested after there was a threat to trade union event in mansfield

Indeed, who were they?

 

[e19896]

You do refer to the magasine when asked for references or more detail. It's rather irritating and does not help discussion.

I know Larry O'Hara well and trust his info and writeing.

Are you not the one who told myself of for cut n past? but here you are asking so it seems asking for Larry to just that are you just a contradiction or simply a cunt?

Told you i will not ignore you are suspect to say the least Larry gave points for you to google or click his name ill make it easy for you and others goto here
http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/nbbw.cgi that should be a start.

Happy reading.

 

[ViolentPanda]

*raises hand and waves pile of old NFB's*

given that Larry's been selling NFB at the Bookfair every year for ... oooh, years now;
and given that NFB has at least some distribution in alternative bookshops;

I can't be the *only* person here who has copies, can I?

Nope.

I have mine filed on the same shelf as my copies of "Lobster" and various other interesting political and para-political journals. The genre gives (imho) a valuable "outsider" perspective on events.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think they'd run the far greater risk of having their budgets cut if complicity were to be demonstrated. Even in war situations, operations like this are difficult to justify with the public or parliament (as in NI, or with GAL here) and they'd have no way of justifying it in these circumstances. They would all go to prison, which doesn't happen if you ambush IRA men even if you shoot civilians in the process.

Yet we haven't seen any budget cuts or administrative punishments at any time when complicity in illegal acts has been proven, have we?

That's the beauty of the way the security services function; they aren't accountable in the way that ordinary public services are.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Yet we haven't seen any budget cuts or administrative punishments at any time when complicity in illegal acts has been

Yes, but like I say, complicity in a very different situation.

 

[likesfish]

nail bombs easy to put together even I coulddo it.
copeland before convicted was just a nazi sado who'd left the Nf no shortage of nazi nutters out there but most don't turn into nutters
had no previous or any links so essentialy a "clean skin"
if they had no evidence can't just drag someone off the street hindsights briliant.
probably could have done a better job but diid'nt thats life no

 

[Roadkill]

Logically, the people who'd be tasked with making sure it didn't happen again would accrue some benefit.

Cold and cynical, I know, but so (on past evidence) are the spooks.

The problem I have with that is that virtually any crime or security incident could benefit the spooks or the old bill. Using the same logic, you could suggest that the police let the crime rate go up so as to secure themselves more funding.

I can well believe that the security services are cynical enough to conduct the odd false flag operation, but I'd want a bit more evidence than has been put forward so far before I start believing that Copeland was part of one.

Nail bombs aren't that hard to make, and I've not seen anything to convince me that Copeland didn't carry out his crimes alone. And in any case, if the spooks really were into false-flag operations to get themselves a budget increase or avoid cuts or whatever, I can't help thinking they'd cook up a more sustained and apparently systematic threat than one nutter on the loose with a nail bomb.

 

[likesfish]

they may have have even let him run on under survelliance fearing this was the start of a a major campign kind of difficult to make that choice grab him now not knowing if he's allies are planning more or nick tea and medals all round then another bomb goes off

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I rest my case, m'lud...

you of course forget to mention www.911cultwatch.org.uk --doesn't fit your smear, does it?

 

[Larry O'Hara]

In reply to post 70, I have never said this was a 'false flag' operation.

Glad to see some posters with a modicum of common-sense have got involved...

As another post suggests, one can argue that Copeland was allowed to run to see if he had accomplices--there are grave problems with that as an explanation of everythingh, but it is at least arguable. But such debate needs to start with a public admission he was given latitude--which I surmise will hardly pleased the families of those bereaved/injured.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

In reply to post 70, I have never said this was a 'false flag' operation.

Glad to see some posters with a modicum of common-sense have got involved...

As another post suggests, one can argue that Copeland was allowed to run to see if he had accomplices--there are grave problems with that as an explanation of everythingh, but it is at least arguable. But such debate needs to start with a public admission he was given latitude--which I surmise will hardly please the families of those bereaved/injured.

 

[tbaldwin]

Most rational people know to take "Searchlight" with a pinch of salt.

Bit of a sweeping statement that....Speaking for MOST people now are you!

Searchlight has done lots of damage to far right groups over the years. Not sure that Larry O Hara or that countless number of Searchlight critics have though...

The idea that the state was in someway involved in Admiral Duncan etc is obviously a good one for lots of people.
Personally id take that with a pinch of salt.

 

[Roadkill]

In reply to post 70, I have never said this was a 'false flag' operation.

I was responding to ViolentPanda. The phrase 'false flag operation' was mine, but he seemed to be suggesting that something akin to one was a possibility.

As another post suggests, one can argue that Copeland was allowed to run to see if he had accomplices--there are grave problems with that as an explanation of everythingh, but it is at least arguable. But such debate needs to start with a public admission he was given latitude--which I surmise will hardly pleased the families of those bereaved/injured.

Well, I find the idea that Copeland was known about and allowed to run to see if he had accomplices, and was then not picked up in time to prevent the bombings, more convincing by a long way than the suggestion that the security services were actually complicit in the bombings.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I was responding to ViolentPanda. The phrase 'false flag operation' was mine, but he seemed to be suggesting that something akin to one was a possibility.



Well, I find the idea that Copeland was known about and allowed to run to see if he had accomplices, and was then not picked up in time to prevent the bombings, more convincing by a long way than the suggestion that the security services were actually complicit in the bombings.

I reiterate the word complicity was used deliberately--if MI5 knew gays were to be a target, & perhaps even the AD pub itself, then not to inform people is complicity in my book.

 

[dylanredefined]

Its not complicity its incompetence .If you close the pub as its targeted.Bomber choses another target or waits .If you know he is coming to bomb the pub you set a trap .Though did they know/ his last two targets had been ethnic areas so then switching two a gay pub is a bit of a change.

 

[mashedmaryland]

dylan then why did certain MI5 people tip off gay magazines (i think it was the pink paper) 24/48 hours before the attack !

 

[tbaldwin]

I
Well, I find the idea that Copeland was known about and allowed to run to see if he had accomplices, and was then not picked up in time to prevent the bombings, more convincing by a long way than the suggestion that the security services were actually complicit in the bombings.

If the security services were keeping an eye on Copeland but were not really sure of what he was doing and who he had connections with,it wouldnt be much of a suprise.
In weighing up their course of action it would not be that easy to choose the best thing to do.
But the blame lays on the person doing the bomb.

 

[Roadkill]

@mashedmaryland Did they? Got some evidence for that?

I'm with dylan on this: it sounds much more like incompetence than complicity.

I reiterate the word complicity was used deliberately--if MI5 knew gays were to be a target, & perhaps even the AD pub itself, then not to inform people is complicity in my book

Not if they were letting Copeland run whilst they found out more about him, but he acted sooner than they expected. That's not complicity: that's a cock-up.

<edit>
@tbaldwin - that's kind of what I was driving at

 

[tbaldwin]

dylan then why did certain MI5 people tip off gay magazines (i think it was the pink paper) 24/48 hours before the attack !

Just because people say this or that place is likely to be attacked doesnt mean it is though does it...
Its how terrorism works.Expecting the police to get it right every time is just nonsense.

 

[likesfish]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19990502/ai_n14234423

No mention of a tip off more like putting 2+2 and getting four
lets think who do nazi's hate ethnics and gays and jews of course. (the left obvioulsy but there praticly an endangered species these days)
I'd imagine if you searched you'd find warnings in the jewish press as well
can'timagine the pink paper would keep a cotact from the security service quiet to much of a coup see we are important

 

[jæd]

you of course forget to mention www.911cultwatch.org.uk --doesn't fit your smear, does it?

And you've forgotton to post *any* evidence of all this...

 

[jæd]

dylan then why did certain MI5 people tip off gay magazines (i think it was the pink paper) 24/48 hours before the attack !

Evidence please, Mr Conspiratroll...

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Evidence please, Mr Conspiratroll...

on the assumption you can read, tosser

Pink Paper 30/4/99

Independent on Sunday 2/5/99

Pink Paper 7/5/99

(all by David Northmore, & all reproduced NFB 3 p.19)

see also the 'Digital Diversity' list (Duncan Lustig-Prean) etc.

But I forgot: if the above aren't on the internet, for you they aren't real....

 

[Wookey]

on the assumption you can read, tosser

Pink Paper 30/4/99

Independent on Sunday 2/5/99

Pink Paper 7/5/99

(all by David Northmore, & all reproduced NFB 3 p.19)

see also the 'Digital Diversity' list (Duncan Lustig-Prean) etc.

But I forgot: if the above aren't on the internet, for you they aren't real....

I've spoken to David Northmore about this some years after the events, and he told me that on the week ending 4th April 1999 he was scrabbling around for a front page for the Pink Paper. The news that week was dominated by the other bombings, and in an effort to contrive an exciting front page Northmore called a contact at MI5, and suggested to them that, as warnings were going out to the Jewish and Muslim communities, and that there are very often anti-gay sentiments connected to fascist attacks on minorities, that there might well be a risk of a gay venue being bombed next.

The MI5 conceded that there could be a risk, it wouldn't be an outrageous link to make. Northmore asked what the police advice would be in light of this potential risk, and was told that increased vigilance was the line the police were taking.

Hence the next day's front page (the same day as the bomb) was explicit in its warning that there was a percieved risk to gay venues, and that people should keep all eyes open.

Northmore has since rubbished the idea to me that he was used as a plant for MI5. He insisted he was lucky in making a connection, lucky in asking the right source the right question, and lucky in being on print deadline the night before the bomb went off, thus making it look very much like the Pink Paper had some fantastic source and a clear warning from MI5. This wasn't so, acording to Northmore.

Northmore, btw, is and was a very thorough investigative journalist (he's even a published author on the concepts behind good investigative methods) and I personally find it hard to believe he wouldn't try very hard to get to the bottom of these theories if he could.

If he's changed his story since I was his Editor at the Pink Paper I would be fascinated to know how and why.

I await the documentary with great interest.

 

[likesfish]

thats great Mi5 get phoned by agay newspaper editor and goes he might want to target gays as well did'nt think of thats not exactly spooks is it
atleast MI5 are not the intelligent service

 

[jæd]

on the assumption you can read, tosser

Ho-hum... Some-one's point disintegrating so you need insults...?

But I forgot: if the above aren't on the internet, for you they aren't real....

Actually, I can go one better and find a link of this warning...

Pink Paper editor Mike Ross said: "We are very shocked and upset and trying to understand why the gay community has been targeted. We gave out a warning that people should be extra vigilant at this
time. The recent bombs were seen to be targeting minority communities, which
the gay community is to a certain extent."

"extra vigilant"... Not exactly a conspiracy or even "Special Branch/MI5 complicit"...

 

[mashedmaryland]

@mashedmaryland Did they? Got some evidence for that?

I'm with dylan on this: it sounds much more like incompetence than complicity.


Do i have evidence well you could see the front page of the pink paper as it was in the issue released on the day of the bomb

or the open letter from peter tatchall on this issue