16 percent of muslims believe in july 7th martyrs

[In Bloom]

Hardly - I wasn't the one who just steamed out with an 'Ah, it's all a load of bollocks' line without pausing to consider ANY of the above.

And this:



would seem to be implying that you have somewhere seen information that says exactly that.

To be fair, the phrasing of that doesn't necessarily imply a literal reading.

 

[TAE]

The reason I think "over 99%" of muslims are against such violence is that "over 99%" of muslims who I listen to tell me they are against it.

 

[tbaldwin]

The reason I think "over 99%" of muslims are against such violence is that "over 99%" of muslims who I listen to tell me they are against it.

How many muslims do you know? Is it over 1,000?

 

[ViolentPanda]

How many people normally take part in Opinion polls?

That entirely depends.

Why do some people on Urban reject any stat/poll etc that doesnt fit into there narrow world view?

Who's rejected anything?

If you pick up a newspaper, do you accept that the headline is accurate before reading the whole article?
In much the same way that no-one rational accepts a headline before reading the article, if I see a survey, I don't put my faith in the newspaper that publishes the results, I put my faith in the actual survey data.

That's not a "narrow world view", that's common sense.

 

[TAE]

How many muslims do you know? Is it over 1,000?

Surely you mean over 100 ?


In any case, I'm talking about people who have expressed their views, not just personal friends.
People like the two moslems who have just appeared on C4 News.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

I'm a market research professional

really?! I always thought you ran a record shop like in the Nick Hornby book.
Fair play.

 

[tbaldwin]

Surely you mean over 100 ?


In any case, I'm talking about people who have expressed their views, not just personal friends.
People like the two moslems who have just appeared on C4 News.

Do you actually have any muslim friends?

 

[cesare]

I'm still not sure what the point of this thread was. I suppose we'll have to wait for nurcoron to come back and answer my question.

 

[TonkaToy]

Muslim Britain split over 'martyrs' of 7/7
By Alexandra Frean and Rajeev Syal

Times poll reveals divided loyalties as Muslim soldier dies fighting Taleban




A SIGNIFICANT minority of British Muslims believe they are at war with the rest of society, the largest poll of Muslims in this country suggests.
The Populus survey for The Times and ITV News has found that more than one in ten thinks that the men who carried out the London bombings of 7/7 should be regarded as “martyrs”. Sixteen per cent of British Muslims, equivalent to more than 150,000 adults, believe that while the attacks were wrong, the cause was right

Over 16% of westerners don't think Bush is a complete cunt!

 

[mk12]

So what was 'the cause', and how is it separate from the attacks?

If 'the cause' was to send a clear statement that the attacks on afghanistan and iraq were wrong, then a lot more than sections of the muslim community agree.

send a clear statement to who? The ruling class, the government? I doubt that. Why attack civilians then?

 

[TAE]

Do you actually have any muslim friends?

I know a few, but I would not say we are friends in that sense.

 

[Bear]

How many people normally take part in Opinion polls?

Why do some people on Urban reject any stat/poll etc that doesnt fit into there narrow world view?

Yeah, I know what you mean. This isn't the only poll done on Muslim opinion is it? If it were, it would be easy to ignore it, but other polls have produced similar results...

 

[TAE]

Really? Which ones? Do you have any links ?

 

[kyser_soze]

What I don't get is, given that despite it's unpopularity, the Iraq mission still records about 20-30% approval from an unalienated population, that 16% of a population that is experiencing local and international attack on it's faith and whole way of life saying that they support such attacks is a surprise and/or unbelievable.

 

[Aldebaran]

16 percent of muslims believe in july 7th martyrs

It must be my bad English, but can someone explain me in detail the meaning of the words "believe in" in this context?

salaam.

 

[In Bloom]

It must be my bad English, but can someone explain me in detail the meaning of the words "believe in" in this context?

salaam.

I think the phrasing is meant to imply that they agree with their actions, which doesn't appear to be the case. Rather, they have said that they think that they were martyrs. You don't have to be right to be a martyr.

 

[Aldebaran]

Well I think describing the bombers as martyrs is as good as any word .

In context of Islamic way of thinking and beliefs it is not "as good as any word". What is translated as "martyr" has for a Muslim a very specific connotation. It refers to someone who dies "on the way of Allah". The traditional popular belief connected with such an act is that such a person goes "straight to heaven".

If anyone asks me about this I say that it should be obvious Allah does not need humans to be defended. To think so is a sign of human arrogance that easily can lead to blasphemy. On the other hand to defend the Muslim community (Ar. umma) and hence also Allah (His Message and Religion and the practice thereof) against agression from outside is required and (the rules thereof) very specifically described in many verses of Al Qur'an.
From there it is easy to make the (emotional) link to the idea that one also defends Allah ("in person" so to speak.)

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

I think the phrasing is meant to imply that they agree with their actions, which doesn't appear to be the case. Rather, they have said that they think that they were martyrs. You don't have to be right to be a martyr.

In this context they do have to be "right" to deserve that title, but like I explained, it can also be seen as "right" in their cause, which I presume was to protest against UK's involvements in Iraq = they acted in defense of Muslims. This does not mean to imply that those who agree on that agree with the methods used.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

What I don't get is, given that despite it's unpopularity, the Iraq mission still records about 20-30% approval from an unalienated population, that 16% of a population that is experiencing local and international attack on it's faith and whole way of life saying that they support such attacks is a surprise and/or unbelievable.

But did they explicitely stated they supported the attacks?
I agree with posters who said they wanted to see the data (leaving aside that I don't trust any type of "polls". Same counts for most "statistics".)

salaam.

 

[In Bloom]

In this context they do have to be "right" to deserve that title, but like I explained, it can also be seen as "right" in their cause, which I presume was to protest against UK's involvements in Iraq = they acted in defense of Muslims. This does not mean to imply that those who agree on that agree with the methods used.

salaam.

A martyr is generally taken to be somebody who sacrifices themself to further a cause, usually by dying but not necessarily. You really don't have to be serving the right cause to do that.

Though I take your point.

 

[kyser_soze]

It refers to someone who dies "on the way of Allah". The traditional popular belief connected with such an act is that such a person goes "straight to heaven".

Someone can be a martyr to any cause - Islam doesn't have some kind of monopoly use of the word you know. Irrespective of whether the cause is 'just' in other people's eyes, so long as your colleagues/supporters think you're doing the right thing is enough for most...

I read the full article last night and only 2% actually support the action, 16% believe that fighting for Islam was a just cause in the case (combined reasons - Iraq, Palestine, global war on Islam), but they disagreed with the use of a civilian target - support for action against a military/non-civilian target would have been higher.

2% also said that they would 'support' a family member who joined 'Al-Queda', with a slightely higher number saying they would be 'indifferent'.

A vast majority, while supporting undercover investigations, felt that teh OB shouldn't make Muslims any more of a suspect simply beause they were Muslim.

I really don't see why you're all getting upset about this

1. It gives a very positive view of the vast majority of Muslims in the UK as being against the bombers and the use of violence in spite of much provocation

2. It also shows how economically spread the UK Muslim community is - while there is great wealth, by and large Muslims in the UK are less likely to have degrees than any other group, earn £150 a week less that the average for white males and several other stats that show that for many Muslims in the UK life is fucking hard.

(Whoops...OB = Old Bill = Police in case you were wondering Alderbaran )

 

[Aldebaran]

Someone can be a martyr to any cause - Islam doesn't have some kind of monopoly use of the word you know.

Where do I say that Islam has a "monopoly" on an English word? I explained it in context of Islam and Muslims because we *are* talking about Muslims and *their* use of the word (read: their use of the Islamic meaning behind it, as I explained).

2% also said that they would 'support' a family member who joined 'Al-Queda', with a slightely higher number saying they would be 'indifferent'.

I find that *very* high numbers.
It indicates there is something fundamentally wrong in the way these people are guided, religiously. *If* they are Muslim in the sense of "practicing", which is in my view also an open question. It is not because you "look like" and because probably your background is Muslim, that you are practicing or even a believer. In my experience many Muslims in Western nations are only "Muslim" in the social sense of the word. (and like I said, I have no trust in any "polls" and I would like to be able to see the data.)

salaam.

 

[TAE]

Ex Home Secretary Charles Clarke said on C4 News today that he thinks far far less than even a thousandth of a percent of muslims would consider doing something like 7/7. He used the phase 0.000...1 percent.

 

[Aldebaran]

I keep thinking about something else: How many women were "questioned" and when that politician talked about "Muslims", did he also refer to women?

salaam.

 

[TAE]

Charles Clarke was talking about british muslims in general and did not say anything specifically about men or women.

 

[JHE]

Ex Home Secretary Charles Clarke said on C4 News today that he thinks far far less than even a thousandth of a percent of muslims would consider doing something like 7/7. He used the phase 0.000...1 percent.

A figure plucked from his arse! He wasn't exactly competent as Home Secretary, was he? In fact, he was such an embarrassment that his mate Tone had (reluctantly) to sack him.

 

[nurcoron]

'Go find other threads about Muslims in the UK and you'll find people pointing out how shit some young Mulsims lives are; how they feel excluded from society in the UK; how they experience racism on a daily basis; how many Muslims feel that there is a global assault on their values and way of life (viz Israel and Iraq) and how 'it's not surprising they feel pissed off, how would you feel''

Are the lives of muslims in this country any worse than those of chinese or indians. How come none of these other groups resort to terrorism?

 

[cesare]

<snip>

1. Go find other threads about Muslims in the UK and you'll find people pointing out how shit some young Mulsims lives are; how they feel excluded from society in the UK; how they experience racism on a daily basis; how many Muslims feel that there is a global assault on their values and way of life (viz Israel and Iraq) and how 'it's not surprising they feel pissed off, how would you feel'

<snip>

Nurcoron - it would help the debate if you quoted the poster thus, so that the rest of us don't have to search back through the thread to find who you quoted and whether or not it was in context/selective. ( http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=4752814&postcount=15 )

You haven't answered my (reasonable) question yet - what is your point in starting this thread? Where are you coming from on this?

I liked reading Aldebaran's posts, which were mainly questioning to clarify then giving a muslim perspective/explanation. Which seemed to be countered by a 'ah yes but this is what we think' type response, almost a defensive stance where none seemed necessary (from my POV, reading it much later). Looks most odd.

 

[JHE]

I liked reading Aldebaran's posts, which were mainly questioning to clarify then giving a muslim perspective/explanation.

Slurp, slurp.

It's OK - as long as you lick his arse in a suitably brotherly way, you can probably find a scholar to say it's halal. Just don't get into any of that utterly haram homosexual stuff.

 

[cesare]

Are the lives of muslims in this country any worse than those of chinese or indians. How come none of these other groups resort to terrorism?

And in terms of this question - I really don't understand why you're conflating race with religious belief.

If you wish to make a point about comparisons with Islam - surely you'd do better asking why, by way of example, Xtian fundamentalists/sects don't 'resort to terrorism'.

That would be harder though - wouldn't it? Because most of us can think of plenty of examples of acts of war/terrorism using organised religion as a vehicle/justification harking through the ages.

You are introducing race here and I'd like to know why.