15 royal navy held by iran

[nino_savatte]

Time for Iran to grow up.

The same could be said for your beloved US.

They say "love is blind".

 

[London_Calling]

I would think it's no more than a slap on the wrist and a signal to not take the piss.

As you were in about a week, the hysterics can then go for a lay down and the boys can stop moving toys around on maps.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> And Blair will need Bush to back him up anyway if they don't return the boys soon.<snip>

It's not clear to me that the US can contribute anything useful to this situation.

As far as I can see their only imaginable role would be to escalate it further, which some in the US government would no doubt dearly love to do anyhow.

I don't see how that could be regarded as particularly helpful in the specific case of these captives though.

PS yes mears, I think you are a 'wingnut' ...

 

[mears]

Iran refuses to let the UK visit its sailors.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/25/AR2007032500368.html

 

[TAE]

I suspect that's because they've seen the UK storming the police station in Basra and don't want similar scenes in their own country. They should, however, give the red cross some access.

 

[London_Calling]

It's always amusing to see the Sunday papers whipping up the mob.

Almost as amusing as watching those who enjoy being whipped get themselves overexcited.

It's a tea cup, and it doesn't have a storm in it.

 

[likesfish]

I think the next time iran trys this it will find out the RN can shoot back and quite well

 

[david dissadent]

Carrier Task Force 473 seems to be the permenant name of the task force in the Indian Ocean to support actions in Afghanistan.

I will say having read around a bit I am now assume that Charles de Gaulle is now in the Indian Ocean and my be available for action against Iran should the head of the French government choose so.

 

[London_Calling]

I think the next time iran trys this it will find out the RN can shoot back and quite well

But the Revolutionary Guards didn't shoot, so the word "back" isn't needed ?

It's not a shooting situation is it, people have been detained for questioning ?

There seems to be some strange mindsets about . . . .

 

[likesfish]

kidnapped more like
the royal navy are going about a legitimate task with UN backing in iraqi waters and have been for several years.
so have the right to self defence as the irainians will find out if they continue

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I think the next time iran trys this it will find out the RN can shoot back and quite well

I gather from the former first sea lord's remarks in that interview I quoted, that he would expect the rules of engagement to get rather more aggressive if there is any suspicion that the Iranians might make a habit of this sort of thing.

It's pretty clear though that the rules of engagement up until this point were designed to keep things chilled rather than escalating them. Naval warfare or even the mere suggestion of it in that particular area has been known to do alarming things to the price of oil, which is no doubt a factor in the planning on both sides.

If Iran needs a little economic boost to offset the effects of sanctions though, then I suspect that we'll see some more brinkmanship, although it would be nice to think that the RN would not make similar mistakes (e.g. sending their air cover away) to this in the future.

 

[david dissadent]

Information only but a Guardian article on how Iranians see Britain.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2042259,00.html

 

[London_Calling]

kidnapped more like
the royal navy are going about a legitimate task with UN backing in iraqi waters and have been for several years.
so have the right to self defence as the irainians will find out if they continue

Imperial conquest, I think you'll find; WMD, bogus pretext, yada, yada, bleh.

And Kofi Annan did term the "invasion" of Iraq an "illegal".

"Self defence" is not shooting people who seek to detain you. That is called murder.

Apart from that, have fun with your delusion.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

"Self defence" is not shooting people who seek to detain you.

It can be.

That is called murder.

It can be.

 

[Aldebaran]

And Kofi Annan did term the "invasion" of Iraq an "illegal".

As did everyone with one functioning braincell.

"Self defence" is not shooting people who seek to detain you. That is called murder.

You overlook the prelavent mindset "We Are The Good Guys, hence we can Murder At Will and still call ourselves The Good Guys".
It has a brain-crushing impact on the Delusionalists.

salaam

 

[Aldebaran]

On the incident: I find it rather amusing, especially - once again - in hte light of the hypocritical outburst of "demands to release them immediately" this provokes in the West.

So ovbiously predictable and yet still so self-repetitive without any of the Westerners perceiving its arrogant hypocrisy. People keep amazing me, I tell you.

salaam.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

You both ignore the other side of it, IF the RN were in Iraqi waters then the Iranians deliberately invaded another country to take/kidnap/abduct military from another nation with whom they are not at war prisoner/hostage).

In that situation why shouldn't they refuse to go? What would happen then? If it came to force then the Iranians wouldn't have a leg to stand on legally or ethically.

 

[TAE]

the royal navy are going about a legitimate task with UN backing in iraqi waters

Or so they claim.

 

[Aldebaran]

You both ignore the other side of it, IF the RN were in Iraqi waters then the Iranians deliberately invaded another country to take/kidnap/abduct military from another nation with whom they are not at war prisoner/hostage).

In fact it is only one side who declared those waters to be "Iraqi".
If the US/UK can illegally "pre-emptivaly" invade and destroy Iraq (and Israel can invade an bomb to the stone age Libanon "pre-emptively" and with conscent and support of the International community) why can't Iran take a few soldiers they see as a threat as prisoners, pre-emptively?

Once the rules broken, you can't expect all others to follow them and excuse you for playing false. Isn't the whole "uranium enriching" outcry nonsense not of the same order of blatant hypocricy (Yes it is.)

On an other note: What about the Iranians abducted from what was said a diplomatic post in Iraq? Didn't follow that one up. Were they released with proper apologies and explanation?

salaam.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

In fact it is only one side who declared those waters to be "Iraqi".

Really? I thought that Iran was fairly happy with the status quo with respect to borders there. That is one of the major causes of the Iran-Iraq war after all.

why can't Iran take a few soldiers they see as a threat as prisoners, pre-emptively?

So we're at war now? Fair enough, lots of people are going to die.

Once the rules broken, you can't expect all others to follow them and excuse you for playing false.

Your logic is frankly, shit. They broke the rules, so we can do what the hell we want. If you want a more detailed breakdown of why it's crap then say so.

The only thing about that statement that's of any use is the implicit admission that Iran would have been breaking international law if they UK personnel weren't in their waters.

 

[Loki]

I can't give a link because my DNS is broken atm. But the Iranians published evidence that the captured were in Iran's territory when they were taken.

 

[Aldebaran]

They broke the rules, so we can do what the hell we want. If you want a more detailed breakdown of why it's crap then say so.

It comes down to exactly that.
Why would anyone respect International Law today if the USA violates it constantly with amazing lack of concern (let alone shame) and its satellite Israel does the same under the US umbrella, forcing the rest of the international community to give them silent support.

The only thing about that statement that's of any use is the implicit admission that Iran would have been breaking international law if they UK personnel weren't in their waters.

Which doesn't answer the question: Why would they care? Why would anyone?

salaam.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Which doesn't answer the question: Why would they care? Why would anyone?

If you're just going to wander around saying that international law is a waste of time then go for it. But please stop wasting my time by quoting my comments hence implying you're trying to engage me in discussion.

 

[Spion]

so have the right to self defence as the irainians will find out if they continue

hehe, I love it when self-proclaimed spokespeople for the forces issue these blood curdling threats. It's funny. Like someone telling you how hard their big brother is.

 

[Aldebaran]

If you're just going to wander around saying that international law is a waste of time then go for it.

I hold a degree in it, I suppose I'm able to tell when it gets violated and when, indeed, it appears as becoming useless in its former - internationally agreed on - ability to see its implementation enforced.

So far you didn't answer any of my questions.

salaam.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

So you've got a degree in nothing now. Lucky you.

Which questions did you want answered, those look like rhetorical ones for the most part. In turn if you'd like to comment on your declaration of war by proxy for Iran (you did start with the pre-emptive strikes) and the status of Iran's position wrt the Shatt al-Arab waterway (which you claim only one side accepts).

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I can't give a link because my DNS is broken atm. But the Iranians published evidence that the captured were in Iran's territory when they were taken.

While I wouldn't be particularly inclined to believe a word the Iranians say about this, one can hardly have much confidence in anything the British government say either, given their track record.

 

[Flavour]

i hope they (the brits) are given a public smack on the bottom from ahmadinejad and that this humiliation is broadcast to the world

 

[mears]

It comes down to exactly that.
Why would anyone respect International Law today if the USA violates it constantly with amazing lack of concern (let alone shame) and its satellite Israel does the same under the US umbrella, forcing the rest of the international community to give them silent support.



Which doesn't answer the question: Why would they care? Why would anyone?

salaam.

This is sadly typical. Sailors taken on the open seas and its not Iran's fault. You can't blame Iran for their own actions, you must blame the US and of course the Jews, everyone likes to blame the jews.

Always blame America and the Jews.

 

[dylanredefined]

i hope they (the brits) are given a public smack on the bottom from ahmadinejad and that this humiliation is broadcast to the world

I hope you choke on a pizza