12 Pakistanis arrested on terror charges.

[littlebabyjesus]

As a precaution, we're told. Fair enough to call the bomb squad if there's a genuine threat. I hope it's not for publicity purposes.

"Police have so far found no evidence of any explosives since raiding the properties." This should be confirmed before people are thrown into the cells. If arrests were the consequence of an investigation, not a part of it, we wouldn't need to lock people up for a month.

We have retreated back to what Foucault talks about in reference to medieval ideas of justice. There are 'degrees of guilt', where merely to be suspected of a crime is to be already partially guilty and to deserve punishment. It is the same logic that has led to Americans accepting torture in their name at Guantánamo Bay.

 

[London_Calling]

It feels like an almighty cock up to me.

 

[Azrael]

We have retreated back to what Foucault talks about in reference to medieval ideas of justice. There are 'degrees of guilt', where merely to be suspected of a crime is to be already partially guilty and to deserve punishment. It is the same logic that has led to Americans accepting torture in their name at Guantánamo Bay.

Our adversarial system is certainly retreating to inquisitional forms of justice, which the common law did away with in the mid-19th century. Historically, I believe that inquisitional justice replaced adversarial justice on the Continent at the behest of the Holy Inquisition. Thankfully Henry II had kickstarted the Common Law by then, and our system was never wholly inquisitional.

Our police are now investigative magistrates in all-but name, with power to search property without a warrant, interrogate suspects regardless of silence, and to set bail while they continue their inquiries. True, they have to get authorization from a magistrate to extend their "investigative detention", but the burden of proof is so low that this is largely a figleaf.

It's infiltrating our courts as well, with "inferences that appear proper" from silence at trial (or, in more limited circumstances, during police interrogation) and the admission of previous convictions.


Not only do I see no need for it, I consider it a regression, and a menace to liberty.

 

[Azrael]

Just to add, "degrees of guilt" is an excellent and succinct way of putting it, and is why "investigative detention" is an attack on the presumption of innocence.

I wish the likes of Liberty and the Lib Dems would at least acknowledge the underlying issues, instead of "compromising". Compromise only makes sense if you admit your opponents' framework is basically correct, and all that's left is to quibble about details.

 

[lostexpectation]

btw this was earlier in the week

Terror plot cops find 'bomb part'
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2375686.ece
COPS searching the homes of 11 terror suspects have seized bags of sugar

you've got to be kidding!

i know sugar can be used for many things but really is that the best the cops can do.

 

[Azrael]

This is looking dodgier by the day.

 

[laptop]

"Tea - milk, two bombs, is it?"

 

[Azrael]

A spoonful of sugar and it's two weeks in lock-up. Lib Dems, defending compromise to the death.

I hope I'm being premature and the police aren't holding people prisoner for two weeks over photographs and foodstuffs.

 

[In Bloom]

Just to add, "degrees of guilt" is an excellent and succinct way of putting it, and is why "investigative detention" is an attack on the presumption of innocence.

I wish the likes of Liberty and the Lib Dems would at least acknowledge the underlying issues, instead of "compromising". Compromise only makes sense if you admit your opponents' framework is basically correct, and all that's left is to quibble about details.

I agree with Azrael

 

[In Bloom]

it didn't work, so it probably wasn't.

Epic logic fail.

 

[Azrael]

I agree with Azrael

I also think homes shouldn't be searched without a warrant, the right to silence should be restored, and jury trial should be available for every crime (with unanimous verdicts and, oh, let's say 24 preemptory challenges).

If this causes further agreement or confusion I do apologise.

 

[London_Calling]

Nine released without charge - three to go.

What a fuck up.

 

[Azrael]

What a fuck up.

I echo the sentiment if not the wording. On what grounds are they being deported BTW? This is also worrying.

I know I've mentioned it a few times, but I'll note again that the liberty lovin' Lib Dems are just fine with the men's treatment to date:-

"There is no doubt that we have come a long way since the Magna Carta and 24 hour habeas corpus[sic]. The Liberal Democrats accept that the threats we face today and the complexity of modern investigations mean it is no longer practical for the police to be expected to charge terrorist suspects within a single day, or even a single week. However, we believe that two weeks is time enough to decide whether someone should be charged with an offence."

They're an embarrassment to the cause of freedom. It would serve them right if they end up stewing in Paddington Green lock-up for 336 hours.

How many more fiascos like this will it take before a major political figure has the courage and understanding to come out and support charge or release within 24 hours? Too many, I fear.

 

[bluestreak]

I agree with Azrael

I know, innit! Still, one often finds fellow travellers in odd places. It's useful to have seen Azrael on here the last few weeks giving the apologists hell from within their own barriers. They're not used to it!

 

[Azrael]

It's useful to have seen Azrael on here the last few weeks giving the apologists hell from within their own barriers. They're not used to it!

As both left and right have their libertarian and authoritarian strands, there's room to co-operate across the political spectrum on issues like protection from arbitrary state power. If right-wingers think the conservative default is to lock people up for weeks at a time without charge, they disregard the conservative tradition that was so suspicious of state power it balked at the idea of a police force.

 

[laptop]

btw this was earlier in the week

Terror plot cops find 'bomb part'
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2375686.ece
COPS searching the homes of 11 terror suspects have seized bags of sugar

you've got to be kidding!

i know sugar can be used for many things but really is that the best the cops can do.

Anyway, any fule know that you use...

* cough *

...any fule know that granulated sugar is not what you would want for the recipe in question, were you to be stupid enough to attempt it

 

[London_Calling]

From the same:

Security sources believe they thwarted an “imminent” attack planned for the Easter holiday.

I remember the "imminent" word being used on News at Ten several times as well.

What about all those sinister photos of nightclubs and shopping centres . . .

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Nine released without charge - three to go.

What a fuck up.

You'll note that

A Home Office spokesman said the UK was now seeking to remove the men "on grounds of national security".

Though clearly no national security grounds that might actually result in them being charged with anything.

 

[Azrael]

These arrests look fantastically weak, even by the woeful standards of the Terrorism Act. I hope the men are able to take out a class action lawsuit against the police for unlawful imprisonment. Of course, if the government get their way with the deportation, that won't be an issue.

 

[lenny101]

The timing of their release looks like an attempt to bury the news imo. Released late last night so most of today's papers miss the story and the news for the next few days will be dominated by the budget.

 

[London_Calling]

All now released:

All 12 men arrested over a suspected bomb plot in the UK have now been released without charge by police.

"Imminent attack" my arse.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Their release and swift deportation 'on [unspecified] security grounds' was never in doubt. I only hope they can find some kind of legal recourse to sue the UK's arse. I doubt it, though. They'll just be bundled home with bitter memories and a bill for their unused tuition.

 

[London_Calling]

Mr Brown said: "We must remember the context of this. We are dealing with a very big terrorist plot. We have been following it for some time.

What's really interesting to me is that the head of terrorism in the UK went to Downing Street specifically with all the details of this terrorist plot, like it was the most urgent thing on his table. This at a time when the PM was dealing with the coming G20 and the financial crisis.




And they keep telling us they've managed to abort how many terrah plots . . .

Security forces 'foil terror plot every six weeks':

Twice as many Islamist terror plots have been disrupted since the July 7 suicide bombings as has previously been made public, Britain's security services insist.

A further six plots, which have been kept secret until now for security reasons, had been planned by groups across Britain since the London Underground and bus bombings in 2005.

 

[Zachor]

There must have been something dodgy about them or the police wouldn't have gone to so much trouble to get them.

Deport them and tell them not to bother trying to come back. We do need to tighten up the student visa system.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

There must have been something dodgy about them or the police wouldn't have gone to so much trouble to get them.

Sir, you're an arse.

 

[Zachor]

Sir, you're an arse.

Not necessarily but I have more faith in the sources of information that the Security Servcies have than what is said by uninformed people on here.

I believe that the reason that these were detained and then deported was there was enough evidence to show that they were dodgy but to reveal the sources of information could have damaged or endangered future operations of security service operatives.

Much easier to round them up and deport them as that way the suspects are still in the dark as to where the information about their activities come from. Putting them on trial would have compromised the sources of information.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

And tell me, do you have any actual evidence to back that other than the fact that you think it?

 

[spring-peeper]

There must have been something dodgy about them or the police wouldn't have gone to so much trouble to get them.

Deport them and tell them not to bother trying to come back. We do need to tighten up the student visa system.

They are deporting them. Well, 10 of them anyways.

Ten Pakistani men who were arrested after the head of U.K. anti-terrorism policing accidentally revealed details of an operation against them will be deported, the Home Office said.

The men were released without charge following their April 8 arrest on suspicion of plotting an al-Qaeda linked attack on the U.K. They have been handed to the U.K. Border Agency, while two others remain in custody, Greater Manchester Police said in a statement on the force’s Web site late yesterday. Nine were handed over yesterday and the tenth was released to the Border Agency last week.

The U.K. will work with Pakistani authorities to deport the men, who were in Britain on student visas, the Home Office said in a statement e-mailed today.

“We are seeking to remove these individuals on grounds of national security,” according to the statement. “Where a foreign national poses a threat to this country we will seek to exclude or to deport, where this is appropriate.”

link

Another happy ending

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not necessarily but I have more faith in the sources of information that the Security Servcies have than what is said by uninformed people on here.

I believe that the reason that these were detained and then deported was there was enough evidence to show that they were dodgy but to reveal the sources of information could have damaged or endangered future operations of security service operatives.

Much easier to round them up and deport them as that way the suspects are still in the dark as to where the information about their activities come from. Putting them on trial would have compromised the sources of information.

Might I add, an idiotic, credulous arse of the kind that is allowing our civil liberties to be stolen from us under our noses.

Such stupidity is hard to fathom.

 

[Zachor]

Might I add, an idiotic, credulous arse of the kind that is allowing our civil liberties to be stolen from us under our noses.

Such stupidity is hard to fathom.

Has it not crossed your mind that the Security Servcies have access to far far more information about these individuals than you or I could ever have?

Its equally stupid to say they were all innocent students as it is to say they were all jjust about to press the button on the bomb. The truth lies somewhere in between those two poles.

Maybe if the sources or terrorisim were tackled more vigourously then we wouldn't find our general civil liberites were removed in the manner they are at the moment.