12 Pakistanis arrested on terror charges.

[DexterTCN]

Couldn't find a thread for this, sorry if I missed it.

Bit cynical, as usual, myself.

BBC security correspondent Frank Gardner said his understanding was that the alleged plot had been at the "aspirational, not operational" stage.

BBC link for above.

Why the fucking rush into Downing Street?

It was an accident that Bob Quick had his secret document on display as he was photographed entering Downing St.

But it was no accident that he was photographed entering Downing Street.....

In the first Iraq War I used to hand carry intelligence reports to No 10, and sometimes had to explain them personally to Mrs Thatcher. I never once took one in the front door. In fact I have only ever walked in the front door of No 10 when accompanying a foreign dignitary or attending a party....

Ex-Ambassador and current good guy Craig Murray. http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

...pointing out that this was for the media.

Why the rush if it's not at the operational stage? Didn't they say the other day it was possibly an Easter attack?

Could it be to take the heat off of the politicians and police re expenses and murdering a civilian at G20?

 

[Detroit City]

Could it be to take the heat off of the politicians and police re expenses and murdering a civilian at G20?

could be, who knows?

 

[badco]

Could it be to take the heat off of the politicians and police re expenses and murdering a civilian at G20?

Or maybe not

 

[littlebabyjesus]

could be, who knows?

One way of finding out would be to do a statistical analysis of the timing of these arrests. I would wager that the analysis would show a correlation with events such as the murder of Ian Tomlinson – for instance, how long after the murder of Mr de Menezes was such a 'success' proclaimed, or the 'suicide' of David Kelly.

Worth doing.

 

[DexterTCN]

There's going to be a reason for the media show and the arrests though.

Why do it just before the bank holiday?

Prime Minister Gordon Brown has said the case involved a "very big terrorist plot" that security officials had been tracking for some time.

reuters

And...cough....the daily mail version of events.

dm link

Revealed: Terror suspects in 'Easter bomb plot' worked at Manchester airport

Wasn't it about Easter when they sent the tanks to Heathrow, one year?

 

[Fullyplumped]

Could it be to take the heat off of the politicians and police re expenses and murdering a civilian at G20?

If it was, it didn't work, so it probably wasn't.

Maybe there actually is an Islamist terrorist plot to bomb godless decadent British people in shopping centres and nightclubs?

 

[Fullyplumped]

Wasn't it about Easter when they sent the tanks to Heathrow, one year?

I don't know. Why don't you do the research yourself and come back and tell us?


Edited - No it wasn't. You must have been too busy to do this yourself.

No, it was no trouble. Always glad to help.

 

[Fullyplumped]

One way of finding out would be to do a statistical analysis of the timing of these arrests. I would wager that the analysis would show a correlation with events such as the murder of Ian Tomlinson – for instance, how long after the murder of Mr de Menezes was such a 'success' proclaimed, or the 'suicide' of David Kelly.

Worth doing.

Then you should go and do it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If it was, it didn't work, so it probably wasn't.

Maybe there actually is an Islamist terrorist plot to bomb godless decadent British people in shopping centres and nightclubs?

Maybe.

Maybe we should be reporting anyone we see looking at the spy cameras that cover our streets. Anyone who dislikes CCTV is at least suspect.

Maybe we should be rummaging through other people's rubbish to make sure they don't leave any chemicals around that could be used for bombs.

Maybe we should give up our right to a fair trial just in case it helps. Or our right to record the actions of the police.



And maybe, just maybe, there is actually very little we can do to stop a person from strapping explosives around themselves, walking onto a bus and blowing themselves up. Aside from refraining from invading countries that pose us no threat.... maybe....


BTW: It didn't work therefore it probably wasn't is shoddy logic.

 

[Detroit City]

Worth doing.

right! get on it lbj

 

[Fullyplumped]

BTW: It didn't work therefore it probably wasn't is shoddy logic.

Right, then. 12 Pakistanis are arrested on terror charges.

Possibility ONE - maybe this is a false flag operation designed to draw attention from other news stories about minor expenses issues involving politicians.

Possibility TWO - maybe there actually is an Islamist terrorist plot to bomb godless decadent British people in shopping centres and nightclubs.

Well, nobody wants to be thought guilty of shoddy logic, so it is safest to assume that there is a wicked conspiracy by the state to hoodwink the public. I mean, it's not as if there have been Islamist terrorist plots to bomb godless decadent British people in shopping centres and nightclubs before, eh?

 

[DexterTCN]

I don't know. Why don't you do the research yourself and come back and tell us?


Edited - No it wasn't. You must have been too busy to do this yourself.

No, it was no trouble. Always glad to help.

It was the Muslim religious festival of Eid.

I wasn't too busy to go to the trouble of finding all the quotes and links to open the thread in a reasonable way and to throw out a postulation to get things started.

I mean, it's not as if there have been Islamist terrorist plots to bomb godless decadent British people in shopping centres and nightclubs before, eh?

There certainly have been. Sadly there have been a lot more politically convenient arrests with lots of media focus which turned out to be fuck all. The onus of proof is on the accuser. At least when I woke up this morning.

Especially as I've pointed out that an ex Ambassador thinks so, and he knows more about going in and out of Number 10 than you do (although you dream of the day)

 

[Fullyplumped]

Easter / Eid ul Adha - easy mistake to make, I suppose.

 

[laptop]

Possibility ONE - maybe this is a false flag operation

Even conspiraloons deserve to have their terminology used with precision by sane people, or even by those with aspirations to sanity

A "false flag operation" in this instance would mean certified, card-carrying al-Qaeda operatives impersonating Her Majesty's Constabulary in order to arrest themselves. Or someone.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Possibility ONE - maybe this is a false flag operation designed to draw attention from other news stories about minor expenses issues involving politicians.

I would discount this as a possibility. The possibility I would entertain would be the desire to draw attention away from the continued disasters that are Iraq and Afghanistan, the continued brutality of the police and myriad other injustices, combined with a desire to maintain a level of public concern for terrorism, which is essential if they are to continue to erode civil liberties.

 

[Fullyplumped]

Even conspiraloons deserve to have their terminology used with precision by sane people, or even by those with aspirations to sanity

A "false flag operation" in this instance would mean certified, card-carrying al-Qaeda operatives impersonating Her Majesty's Constabulary in order to arrest themselves. Or someone.

I'm sure you're right! I really wouldn't know the technically correct meaning of that expression. It's just one of those phrases people chuck about in this forum to show their moral superiority and greater access to secret knowledge (when most of what they know comes from places like craig Murray's blog, or worse, Counterpunch). The internet equivalent of the meaningful look.

Aspirations to sanity!

 

[Fullyplumped]

I would discount this as a possibility. The possibility I would entertain would be the desire to draw attention away from the continued disasters that are Iraq and Afghanistan, the continued brutality of the police and myriad other injustices, combined with a desire to maintain a level of public concern for terrorism, which is essential if they are to continue to erode civil liberties.

If that's what they desire, they are sadly deceiving themselves and their desires remain unfulfilled.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If that's what they desire, they are sadly deceiving themselves and their desires remain unfulfilled.

The second part – desire to maintain public concern about terrorism in order to erode civil liberties – appears to be working a treat.

 

[DexterTCN]

Ahem.

http://jimjay.blogspot.com/

Third we have a lovely bit of trickery pokery. Imagine you've just killed someone and the press actually cover it - I know it's unlikely but the media do cover this sort of thing if they don't feel they have a choice. It's far too late to kill the story so what is to be done? Just press this alert button and we'll launch a massive distraction exercise. We'll round up some foreigners, probably provoke a row with a friendly state and generally ensure the press fills up with stories about how we've saved everyone from certain doom.

The press will make most of the stories up for us, so we don't even have to feed them anything else, newspapers will be full of pages of sensational rubbish about nightclubs being bombed or a dirty bomb - all before anyone has even been charged, let alone convicted

Of course, if that doesn't work we'll just park a tank outside Heathrow and say it's a national emergency. That usually works.

 

[Azrael]

I won't pre-judge the evidence, but given that a previous plot ended in a stack of acquittals, and the scary "anti-terror" laws are increasingly looking like a political tool, I'm skeptical.

Holding people for a week of "investigative detention" is an affront to the presumption of innocence, and makes me suspicious by default. The police could of course have enough evidence to charge already, and be using the law to fluff out their case. The point is we don't know.

A serious justice system would have marched the men straight to a charging room, and had them bailed or remanded within a day of their arrest. They would be facing a prompt trial and stern punishment if they're guilty of plotting mass-murder. With our shambling CJS, by turns unjust and feeble as it lumbers its way through its Kafkaesque motions, who knows. One thing's for sure: if the "detainees" are guilty, they'll be laughing at us.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Holding people for a week of "investigative detention" is an affront to the presumption of innocence, and makes me suspicious by default. The police could of course have enough evidence to charge already, and be using the law to fluff out their case. The point is we don't know.

These arrests were all over the news. Their eventual release without charge, followed by swift deportation with their visas rescinded without explanation, won't be.

Twelve young Pakistanis who may well have come here because they liked the UK. They won't like the UK now. And one of them may now be willing to listen to the voices in Pakistan who share their dislike.

If they wish to do so, the police can arrest whoever they like and claim to have found evidence such as these supposed pictures. If they eventually release the innocent 'suspects', this evidence will never even need to be produced. I'm not saying categorically that this is what has happened here, but if they aren't charged, we'll only ever have the police's word that the evidence is there. And anyone who thinks the police would never do such a thing is pathetically naive.

It is the knee-jerk reaction of the police to make up lies to cover their mistakes – look at Hillsborough or the immediate aftermath of Ian Tomlinson. Their lies about Tomlinson don't seem to have worked too well, so maybe they thought they'd try this. I would not put it past the police to have organised it themselves without even asking their political masters – they have no reason to ask now, after all.

 

[Azrael]

If they wish to do so, the police can arrest whoever they like and claim to have found evidence such as these supposed pictures.

The burden of proof involved is so low that ulterior motives aren't needed. Officers could have genuine "reasonable suspicion" and imprison innocent men for a month. Suspicion is nothing. I reasonably suspect all sorts of things, but can't prove them.

The central question isn't custody's length but its purpose. If the purpose of an arrest is to ensure that charged men arrive in court, it's inevitably going to be short; but if you can arrest to facilitate investigation, several weeks are probably justified.

The problem is that this issue is hopelessly ill-informed. The "Liberal" Democrats are happy to have two weeks of investigative detention: apparently, something they call "24 hour Habeas Corpus" is impractical in this modern age. (I know of no such thing: the Habeas Corpus Act allows three days between filing and appearance, and is only to judge legality, not proof: the prisoners in this case would receive it and be returned to their cells.)

If we agreed that police should either have a prima facie case together before arrest, or expect to have one within hours and in the meantime have reasonable belief, innocent people would be protected, regardless of race, nationality and police motives.

Instead we have "detainees" held for "questioning" on "reasonable suspicion", for anything up to a month. Only weak and oppressive systems need such ugly euphemisms. A proper CJS would be happy to announce that it was holding a dozen prisoners in lock-up, because it would be confident of the case against them.

 

[CyberRose]

Maybe there actually is an Islamist terrorist plot to bomb godless decadent British people in shopping centres and nightclubs?

Don't be daft! There never has been and never will be an Islamic terrorist threat against the UK, to think that there ever will be, or ever has been, is quite frankly ludicrous...!

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Have any of them been actually charged with anything yet?

 

[Azrael]

Have any of them been actually charged with anything yet?

Not that I can find. I wouldn't be surprised to see the men imprisoned without charge for at least two weeks: that's the point where authorisation level for further "detention" moves up from magistrate to high court judge.

The police claim to have acted for "public safety" on the BBC site. (Of course.) The prisoners are members of the public, and if they're innocent, their security is being trampled on by the state. Anyone who supports this invites the same thing to happen to them, and deserve no sympathy if it does.

As ever this is a false conflict between liberty and security. If the prisoners are guilty (and for all we know they might be), they must be loving this. Sit tight, have your solicitor answer for you, and you might get away with it! The law only looks tough if they're innocent.

 

[david dissadent]

Don't be daft! There never has been and never will be an Islamic terrorist threat against the UK, to think that there ever will be, or ever has been, is quite frankly ludicrous...!

There is. Almost everyone agrees with that. What is in dispute is the way that this threat is exaggerated for political expediency.

 

[MikeMcc]

EOD attending one of the houses.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/7996982.stm

 

[Azrael]

EOD attending one of the houses.

As a precaution, we're told. Fair enough to call the bomb squad if there's a genuine threat. I hope it's not for publicity purposes.

"Police have so far found no evidence of any explosives since raiding the properties." This should be confirmed before people are thrown into the cells. If arrests were the consequence of an investigation, not a part of it, we wouldn't need to lock people up for a month.

 

[david dissadent]

Just on Channel 4 "No explosive material has been found."

Edited to add: Yet..

 

[Azrael]

*Dons authoritarian coat*

This means their bombs are still out there, and it's not safe to release the detainees. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. The good of the majority takes precedence over the "rights" of any individual terrorist "suspect". No smoke without fire. Nothing to hide, nothing to fear. Don't know what that last one has to do with anything, but it's my, erm ...

"Idiom, sir?"

Thank you, sweet Concorde.

*Removes coat, lights blue touch-paper, and retreats to a safe distance*