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[munkeeunit]

Er. . .mate I think you'll find there is a bit of a difference between people coming to the UK and people buying up property in foreign lands.

I understand what your saying and can see the links, but I think you'll find that they're pretty much worlds apart.

I think they are very much part of the same thing, although the links become more hazy and complex.

Old fashioned colonialism has largely shifted from direct miliary intervention (alhough with Iraq, Afghanistan, etc the pendulum is again shifting), to the colonialism of gated communities under armed guard to keep out the locals, and 'private' beaches, water and electricity supplies for 'tourists' only.

Same old buying up of their resources on the artificially enforced cheap, it's just that the khaki uniform has been largely, for now, replaced by the bikini and suit.

Fortress europe is designed to keep foreigners out while we continue to buy up their assets via 'structural adjustment' programs designed by western banks for western profits. Not only are impoverished foreign countries denied use of their own resources, they are also increasingly denied access to resources by travelling to the countries they have been shipped back to.

It's all part of the same puzzle artificially propping up our economy against the odds. Even when we flee abroad the beauty / ugliness of the machine is that most of the wealth continues to be repatriated back into our national GNP measurements, as the 'gated areas' become defacto extensions of our own economic area known as Great Britain (& Europe).

Credit crunch furthed abated, housing market remains propped up.

 

[djbombscare]

I dont think old fashoined colonialism is the same as a lot of OAP's moving to an area.

Just to check I looked up on an online dictionary for a couple of proper defintions:

A policy by which a nation maintains or extends its control over foreign dependencies.

n : exploitation by a stronger country of weaker one; the use of the weaker country's resources to strengthen and enrich the stronger country

I know what your saying. . . but a load of old bids moving to spain is not an invading force to plunder the resources of the locality.

I know what your saying but people are not moving to create gated private communties as a way of colonialisation.

Yes they may be moving to gated communties but I think that is more to do with what property developers etc have created rather than lest lock ourselves away from the locals. If locals wanted to move to a gated community then I doubt that anyone would object.

But as is the case say in somewhere like Torrevieja a lot of English ex pats have moved there and none of the Spanish locals would want to live there. Firstly as the prices are probably too expensive and secondly cos it is now classed as full of english and is a target for criminals, better pickings apparentelly.

So Sorry man but to say that it is old fashioned colonialism is IMO trying to cut it in with a very broad brush.

They're not moving to invade, its more a move to escape this country, and there not really there to plunder any resources more bring more money into a local economy.

If you want to include that as old fashoined colonialism than on the same count anyone who comes to the UK to live off state handouts could also be classed as old fashoined colonialism. They are not bringing anything in but they are plundering what resources are available.


It would be good to discuss this but I think we're seriously in danger of de-railling this thread

 

[munkeeunit]

Except I didn't say it was old fashioned colonialism, but a more sophisticated breed of colonialism with which to achieve the same effects of artificially maintaining the huge inequalities between countries.

Nations will almost always prefer to achieve the plundering of resuources through established markets and the aggregated acts of individuals, who, from there own perspective are simply following price signals.

It may be an uncomfortable reality for us to accept, but the armed cordening off of the must affluent aspects of impoverished countries resources to satisfy our desire for consumer goods, cheap holidays, and gated community housing does make us very complicit in the very criminal, yet largely free-market orientated, morden economic colonialism.

Sorry, but I never have much faith in any argument which is reliant on a dictionary definition to sustain it. The world, and the ever evolving free market economics of colonialism, are a lot more complicated than that.

 

[munkeeunit]

Interesting article.

For the most part the Economist is a bastion of right-wing economic myth and spin to suit whatever denial of crisis is the flavour of the day, but every now and again their own bubble of self deluding spin bursts, and they themselves will admit to the severity of the crisis.

This was written 9 months ago, and so the 'sometime next year' is about now.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4079458

"... This boom is unprecedented in terms of both the number of countries involved and the record size of house-price gains. Measured by the increase in asset values over the past five years, the global housing boom is the biggest financial bubble in history (see article). The bigger the boom, the bigger the eventual bust... "

Also linked to within the article.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4079027

 

[djbombscare]

Relating to post 33

Er . . .nah. . . you've lost me now

I understood before but I aint got a fecking clue what your on about now.

I thought in your previous post that you said that:

Old fashioned colonialism has largely shifted from direct miliary intervention *snips brackets* to the colonialism of gated communities under armed guard to keep out the locals, and 'private' beaches, water and electricity supplies for 'tourists' only.

So that says to me that your saying that old fashoined colonialism has changed into the gated community thing. Therefore you were saying that it is old fashoined colonialism.

There are also gated communities in the UK. So would that be colonialisation of locals by locals ? What countries are involved in artificially maintaining the huge inequalities between countries then ? Would it be regional colonialisation ? What if people who were locals also lived in that gated community would they be included in the colonialisation or are they just blind to the facts of who they are cos they have money ?

Nations will almost always prefer to achieve the plundering of resuources through established markets and the aggregated acts of individuals, who, from there own perspective are simply following price signals

Thats not colonialisation thats an open market isn't it ? We dont colonise a country if we purchase goods from it do we ?

It may be an uncomfortable reality for us to accept, but the armed cordening off of the must affluent aspects of impoverished countries resources to satisfy our desire for consumer goods, cheap holidays, and gated community housing does make us very complicit in the very criminal, yet largely free-market orientated, morden economic colonialism

.

That the point where I get lost so educate me

Sorry, but I never have much faith in any argument which is reliant on a dictionary definition to sustain it. The world, and the ever evolving free market economics of colonialism, are a lot more complicated than that.

The dictionary quote is a ref to what the definition of colonialisation is. Now as we operate on the english language it would be a good starting point for someone to understand the english meaning of a specific word. And I have given the two definitions of the word colonialisation, That is to help my point of what I understand colonialism to be.

You might use it in a different context as much as I could say that "the movement of OAP's abroad was not colonialisation but ideed was an act of Fred that relates purely and simply to the antidisestablishmentarianism of the Saggyits of the modern day cuckoo clock. " perfect clear and understandable to me but to eevryone else it means fuck all

So in order for me to put my point and where I couldn't really see the relationship between the two. I was using that to explain my take on the word colonialism. So its not an argument based on a dictonary

Anway lets open it up for debate on a new thread rather than derailing this one anymore, cos I wanna understand your points

You start the thread and I'll get the beers in. . when I get home and after some food that is

 

[munkeeunit]

Colonialism continues to shift and change in nature while the unequal power relationships between countries and people fundamentally remain the same.

South Africa is the perfect example.

Very little has changed in South Africa since the official ending of Apartheid, itself a relic of old fashioned colonialism.

The shanty towns are still as large and impoverished as ever, and South Africa also happens to be at the forefront of the gated community phenomena.

White people are still enjoying all the fruits of the economy behind armed guards, while, for example, the shanty towns have their water supplies increasigly cut off by a black governement.

A thin sliver of black middle classes have been allowed behind the gate.

Apartheid and colonialism remain in place.

The British still have homes they can flee to in gated white South Africa.

PS: I consider this to be very much part of the same debate, so I'm not conceeding that it isn't by setting up a new thread.

 

[Dissident Junk]

Good posts, guys.

Over the last four years, I've kept a keen eye on house prices, largely because I couldn't quite believe how people accepted the massive increase in prices (I remember around 97, a friend of mine bought a 3-bed large flat in SE London for 97K, the same property is now worth 250K; two up/two downs in the same area are on the market for 230K when, in all reality, they are not worth much more than 100K).

I think we are heading for an economic mess beyond compare. The housing market, on a international basis, has been used to prop up consumer spending, as I see it, to avoid the shocks of a global recession we should have had about five years ago. The air-filled centre of this bubble simply cannot continue to hold - there has to be a correction, and it is going to hurt.

Interestingly, there is also an unbelievable housing bubble in Cyprus at the moment, largely fuelled by the notion that loads of expats are going to buy up houses and flats at silly prices (like 110K for a two bed). The rate of development is extraordinary, yet these new builds are standing vacant for months and months while developers continue to ask for their high prices (This is a place where the average wage is around £600 a month). Considering the situation, a UK housing crash will probably wipe out a large section of the island's economy (seeing as it is, largely, all tourist and property developer-based).

 

[djbombscare]

Colonialism continues to shift and change in nature while the unequal power relationships between countries and people fundamentally remain the same.

South Africa is the perfect example.

Very little has changed in South Africa since the official ending of Apartheid, itself a relic of old fashioned colonialism.

The shanty towns are still as large and impoverished as ever, and South Africa also happens to be at the forefront of the gated community phenomena.

White people are still enjoying all the fruits of the economy behind armed guards, while, for example, the shanty towns have their water supplies increasigly cut off by a black governement.

A thin sliver of black middle classes have been allowed behind the gate.

Apartheid and colonialism remain in place.

The British still have homes they can flee to in gated white South Africa.

PS: I consider this to be very much part of the same debate, so I'm not conceeding that it isn't by setting up a new thread.

Ok im with ya again and I can see where your going.

I dont know if there is currently much of a mass migartion of people escaping the Uk to S Africa at the moment, is there ?

And that is a completely different kettle of fish, from what I was talking about.

Historically it is already been a part of colonialisation from Northen Europeans. So communites already Existed out there before the end of Apartheid and the biggoted-ism behind those gated communities is very old indeed.

But that to me is more and issue of racism from White people that consider themselves to be S african, than colonisation from OAP' s moving out to escape the bad weather and the UK.

I thought we were talking about current migration of people selling up and moving abroad. so is this currently happening ?

And how could this be related to people moving to France, Spain, Portugal, Rromania, Florida, Dubai etc etc ?

 

[munkeeunit]

Well, I definitely concede that the links get more fuzzy and a lot less clear cut, so the whole thing is a bit of a tangent. I think the main point I'm making is that these colonial outposts are still fundamentaly in place, and when the housing market does go splatt there's a world of gated communities out there with housing at discounted prices for people to flock to (if not flood).

The extent to which these outposts are made use of very much depends on when people decide that the market has peaked, and whether they think the downturn will be severe enough for them risk uprooting themselves.

If they need to be used in this way by the 'elite' who can afford it, the option is very much being kept on the table.

 

[djbombscare]

And now munkee I'm back with ya and know what your saying

YAY !!!