£25 Congestion Charge for gas guzzlers is a go

[KeyboardJockey]

I have sympathy with you on the snooping front but not on freedom of movement. Your right to drive where you want when you want conflicts with my right to breathe clean air. A balance between our two conflicting 'rights' needs to be struck.

Well why not support a limited miliage insurance policy system. It works. But it just doesn't have the mass surveillance and oppression that is so beloved by livingslime and his yes-men and women factotums (some of which are on here sadly)

 

[mattie]

Why do you think so? I don't really know many details about it yet.

I usually assume that schemes like this (eg bike lanes) are devised and implemented by people who have clearly never stood within 10 feet of a bike let alone used one but you sound like you have actual reasons for thinking this is a non-runner.

The Paris one is doing quite well last I'd heard (but Paris arguably lends itself better to cycling than London does - it also sounds like they've been pretty thorough about putting in safe lanes for cyclists etc)

The velib scheme is pretty damn good, but I'd hesitate to say the lanes are 'safe' - there are many parts where the lane goes from the inside to the outside of a carriageway and vice versa, which can be a little bit hairy to negotiate. There's also bits which ride up on pavements and across pedestrian crossings, when the lines eventually wear off it could be carnage. This is only to be expected, it's retrofitted so it's not going to be perfect but on the whole it's very well conceived. I can't see why something similar wouldn't work in London, it's not just the boulevards that have the cycle lanes in Paris, and it's possible to use other non-road routes - part of the wide walk down the south bank, for example.

The Paris lanes are infinitely better than riding in the blindspot of a lorry or sharing a carriageway with a 4by4 in a hurry.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I was teasing

Seriously though, what kind of business does someone need a 4x4/3litre car for in Central London?

I know a few builders and engineers who use 4x4's etc.

 

[Skorch]

IIRC, schools have codes of conduct which their pupils must adhere to.

Cannot they simply include 'do not arrive at or near the school gates in a car'?

I cycle past a school and there's always a Landrover dropping their kids off, which I know lives two blocks away. Big fucking GUMBALL RALLY paintjob.. tough to miss. How fucking lazy are people?

 

[T & P]

Because it is anti freedom of movement and discriminates against those who may need to bring a vehicle in to central london occasionally and are thereby prevented from doing so.

Nobody is prevented from bringing a vehicle into Central London, occasionally or otherwise. All they have to do is pay £8 when they do.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Nobody is prevented from bringing a vehicle into Central London, occasionally or otherwise. All they have to do is pay £8 when they do.

Unless you have a 4x4 which you use for business in which case you will get hammered by yet another corrupt ken tax

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Unless you have a 4x4 which you use for business in which case you will get hammered by yet another corrupt ken tax

Sorry, but what are these? Can you name even one other?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Sorry, but what are these? Can you name even one other?

LEZ
CC
Outrageous precepts for the GLA on the council tax

 

[littlebabyjesus]

LEZ
CC
Outrageous precepts for the GLA on the council tax

Why outrageous? You sound like one of those hysterical types who objects to all taxes yet still expects their rubbish to be collected every week.

 

[T & P]

Unless you have a 4x4 which you use for business in which case you will get hammered by yet another corrupt ken tax

I should think the wellbeing several million Londoners should come before the interests of some individuals who believe they have a right to drive highly polluting off road vehicles into the busiest and most congested city in Europe.

It's not as if it is difficult to reach London by public transport anyway.

If someone wants the privilege (not right) of driving into Central London at peak times, and driving a polluting vehicle ill-designed to negotiate urban areas at that, they can expect to pay extra for it. We should be discouraging such behaviour and that is what the CC does.

ETA: Just noticed your comments about some people you know using theirs for business but they certainly are a very small minority. The immense majority of businesses use vans of various sizes (most of which would be exempt from the £25 charge) and there isn't really much reason for using a 4x4 for business, and even less for driving into central London with the vehicle.

I guess for those cases in which a 4x4 is really and genuinely necessary for a business and it gets used in Central London, the lower CC rate could be granted- and that is something that might be worth campaigning for. But the immense majority of 4x4s that enter London are neither trade vehicles not needed for the purpose of travelling to London. The interests of the overwhelming majority have to outweigh the interest of a small minority.

 

[Wolveryeti]

this is most probably an election gimmick and will be under resourced and will also cause resentment from other road users when they see whole swaithes of road carved off for cyclists but being unused for most of the time.

"Swathes"

You tool.

 

[Wolveryeti]

this is most probably an election gimmick and will be under resourced and will also cause resentment from other road users when they see whole swaithes of road carved off for cyclists but being unused for most of the time.

"Swathes"

You tool.

I bet you just have sand in your vagina because you own a 4x4

 

[spanglechick]

Nothing to do with that. Its affecting friends businesses and it is yet another level of oppressive tax and surveillance that we in Britain are now being subjected to.

but you do own a 4x4, right? something of a landrover enthusiast, iirc.

 

[beeboo]

Well why not support a limited miliage insurance policy system. It works. But it just doesn't have the mass surveillance and oppression that is so beloved by livingslime and his yes-men and women factotums (some of which are on here sadly)

Anything mileage based is virtually useless for dealing with urban congestion.

Five miles down an empty motorway will have exactly the same forfeit as a five mile school run on snarled up roads belching fumes all over the city.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

but you do own a 4x4, right? something of a landrover enthusiast, iirc.

Yup and I drive sensibily and economically. And I have a limited milage insurance which means I watch how many miles I drive. Why should I have to pay the same penalty when I drive a third or more less than some chelsea school run type.

 

[spanglechick]

Yup and I drive sensibily and economically. And I have a limited milage insurance which means I watch how many miles I drive. Why should I have to pay the same penalty when I drive a third or more less than some chelsea school run type.

you won't, if you don't drive it into the centre of town - or alternatively, you could get a smaller engined car and drive that with limited mileage.

 

[tarannau]

KJ, are you deliberately trying to sound like an intolerant tory who's swallowed a month's worth of the Evening Standard?

Between this, the strike breaking, the anti-immigration sentiments and your policy to youths on the streets ("gissa mosquito noise generator and gun') it's difficult to square any other view than you've become a Tory parody of yourself.

Have a blue rosette on me..

 

[citydreams]

mass surveillance and oppression that is so beloved by livingslime and his yes-men and women factotums (some of which are on here sadly)

oppression? you know fuck all about it.

and, like, omg! someone from TfL posts on this site, who works in policy, and the best you can do is throw around accusations of corruption (completely non-transport related). I've had better conversations with primary-school children.

could this be a case of road rage I wonder?

 

[Xanadu]

but you do own a 4x4, right? something of a landrover enthusiast, iirc.

vested interests eh, KJ???

 

[trashpony]

you won't, if you don't drive it into the centre of town - or alternatively, you could get a smaller engined car and drive that with limited mileage.

Alternatively, get the tube when travelling into the centre. Or drive through the zone. It's easy

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Fair enough that perhaps we need an emmissions charge, but surelyh this should apply 24/7, or do these cars stop polluting during evenings and weekends?

 

[citydreams]

They might not stop polluting, but they pollute less as night time speeds are more efficient in terms of CO2 production. Weekends is a seperate issue, one for which we still need political backing for as the charge revenue will come more from households than from businesses.
The Low Emission Zone does operate 24hours a day.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

KJ, are you deliberately trying to sound like an intolerant tory who's swallowed a month's worth of the Evening Standard?

Between this, the strike breaking, the anti-immigration sentiments and your policy to youths on the streets ("gissa mosquito noise generator and gun') it's difficult to square any other view than you've become a Tory parody of yourself.
]

The actions of livingslime and his cheerleaders plus the actions of central govt with surveillance, over legislation and very little value for money for tax plus the pfi disaster is making me consider for the first time in my life voting Tory.

Sad. I used to be so left wing but over the years the actions of the left and the results of their inaction when faced with challenges thrown up by Thatcherism as turned me towards the right. When ther Left fails where is there to go?

 

[Skorch]

There is no justification for an individual to drive a 4x4 in London. You don't even get the enjoyment of a fast sports car. Having it for the once a year 1cm snowfall? I drove a 2wd in Canada all winter long where you're lucky if they plow the snow from your street once a year. There's no need for a 4x4 unless you're a selfish cunt. I fucking love this new £25 charge.

Assholes with SUVs aside, I hope the biggest benefit for this new tax will to force commercial vehicles to clean themselves up. These dirty diesel vans are the worst individual polluters in the city.

 

[ExtraRefined]

Cars this won't affect

BMW X3
Nissan Xtrail
Mitsubishi Outlander
Porsche Boxster
Suzuki Grand Vitara

Cars that will now have to pay £25 a day

Vauxhall Astra
Volvo S60 bifuel
Skoda Superb
Vauxhall Zafira
Honda Accord
VW Golf
Ford S-Max
VW Passat
Ford Galaxy

So yeah, this will only affect yuppies in sports cars and 4x4s, not normal families at all

 

[jæd]

There is no justification for an individual to drive a 4x4 in London. You don't even get the enjoyment of a fast sports car. Having it for the once a year 1cm snowfall? I drove a 2wd in Canada all winter long where you're lucky if they plow the snow from your street once a year. There's no need for a 4x4 unless you're a selfish cunt. I fucking love this new £25 charge.

Assholes with SUVs aside, I hope the biggest benefit for this new tax will to force commercial vehicles to clean themselves up. These dirty diesel vans are the worst individual polluters in the city.

So... I take it you've looked through the new Charge carefully and realise that there are quite a few 4x4's that aren't affected. And that there are lots of valid reasons (small businesses espcially) for having one in London.

Or are you just trolling...? In that case : C-

 

[Oswaldtwistle]

ExtraRefined's post is misleading. Only *very* small numbers of Astras and Golfs will be affected.

 

[Skorch]

So... I take it you've looked through the new Charge carefully and realise that there are quite a few 4x4's that aren't affected. And that there are lots of valid reasons (small businesses espcially) for having one in London.

Or are you just trolling...? In that case : C-

Just addressing people's "I NEED MY 4x4!!!" concerns: What small business needs a 4x4? Building contractors don't need them. If they need to haul shit, then they buy a van. I've never seen a commercial land rover. Most commercial vehicles for hauling stuff are rear-wheel drive. Why on earth would you need a 4x4? And for those rare exceptions, should we allow ever shithead in the world to pollute our air?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

My my this thread is bringing out the envious, authoritiarian Green-fash out in droves isn't it.

 

[jæd]

What small business needs a 4x4? Building contractors don't need them. If they need to haul shit, then they buy a van.

Small business people who want a car shaped thing for one purpose, crossed with a van shaped thing for another. Its also been mentioned as a requirement by by one or two posters on this forum

I've never seen a commercial land rover.

So if *you* have never seen something then it doesn't exist. I haven't personally seen the Taj Mahal. I wonder if it exists.