 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
|||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
World Trade Center: reaction and comment
As the World Trade Centre thread was in danger of becoming unworkably huge (it's over 430 posts long), I've now locked the thread and opened up this one for your reaction and comments to this terrible tragedy...
[ 10 October 2001: Message edited by: editor ]
There is very little that i can say, beyond the obvious.
Hate breeds hate which breeds hate which breeds.......etc......
As someone said eariler, blanket condemnation of races/countries is boneheaded and is exactly the same mentality as that of those who carried out the attack.
Some Americans hate Arabs, some Arabs hate Americans, accusations of 'they're evil' fly around, and all the while more innocents die, while those who press the buttons, pull the levers make the decisions and run the show stay alive, to fight another day.....it's tragic.
Fighting fire with fire will not put out the blaze...cutting the supply of that whcih sustains the fire, the oxygen, will. We need to combat hate, not each other.
p.s. Zee, my Girlfriend is not actually in ny, she works (in London) for an American bank who's offices are at 39 Wall Street, staff there had to delay their evacuation because the smoke was too dense outside to see anything. Imagine how it must have been, sat at a desk, waiting and waiting and waiting.....they've not heard anything from the NY offices, BTW.......
I don't think that the American's or anyone should rush in a claim the scalp of Ben Larden or anyone. For a start they will never catch him only kill more innocent people, and leave him at large as they did with Gaddifi and Sadam. Also remember it was the CIA who trained and armed him in the first place. He was supposed to go into communist Russia in the cold war for the USA to stir up this kind of war against the Communists. They would have held him up as a hero if he had done that. It is a terriable thing that someone has done but two wrongs don't make a right. It also strikes me that if the western world used more of our money to help starving and poor people in these countries, we would not need to chase these people because the people of the country would see America and the west as good helpfull states. They would not support these disedants in such numbers. The way forward for me is for all people to unite across the world to end these wars. America should be trying to befriend these nations and build bridges to prevent these things happining in the future. Not laying the foundations for more troubble and resientment.
PS Orangeade sorry for mix up. It got very confusing yesterday. As you can imagine I delt with a lot of people on a daily basis in those buildings. I am off work at the moment so have spoken to nobody. I think prehaps I am lucky to be out of it for a while.
no worries, zee. My girlfriend speaks to people on a daily basis in ny, many of these do have frienes and colleagues who will have been in or around the WTC. I shaln't speculate as to how those people are feeling.
Apparently, the rumour that Canary Wharf was tower was TOTALLY evacuated was not entirely true. Mrs Orangeade has a friend who works for Bank of New York (whose offices are at the very top of the tower) and although all other firms in the building were evacuated within several hours, BONY staff were told to STAY PUT by management. How nice. Going down with the ship and all that...tossers.......
I've just finished reading a book called Snitch Culture (Feral House)that covers the amazing level of surveillance monitoring by the US on its own citizens. This surveillance occurs at work, in the street and the monitoring of communications like this website. Yet you can walk onto planes carrying knives?
If anything good is to come out of this whole business (something I personally doubt)it is the strong criticism of the US intelligence/security agencies.
They failed to predict the two most significant events of the past twenty years -the collapse of the USSR and this series of bombings.
The billions of pounds wasted on the develoment of the Star Wars system, and the millions spent monitoring political dissidents such as anti-capitalists, black organistions and the Militia's now looks to have delivered a very poor return for the money invested.
Osama bin Laden and the Taliban are denying any involvement..what worries me the most is the fact that also in Oklahoma people at first blamed the Muslim Fundementalists... I think the Taliban are extremely worried... but the question who has the ability to do this on such a massive scale i cannot see the American Fundamentalists doing this Osame bin LAden seems the only one capable... he has the money, the power and those willing to die for the cause....
first to put this in comtext:
I have an x girlfriend living blocks from wtc, no one in denmark has heard from her.
an old room mate was working in ny yesterday.. also no news.
America welcome to the real world.
london has been living under the threat of terrorist attack for decades,a result of our efforts to control northern ireland.
you cannot expect to bomb, starve and even fund terrorism in other countries without expecting some reprisals.
untill now as a nation you have been living with the delusion of invunerability that comes from being the most powerful nation on the planet,
I am distraught at the loss of life in yesterdays atrocity, not merely because of personal involvement, anyone who has experienced bereavement, must surely feel horror/sadness/empathy with the thousands affected ,directly or indirectly by such an act of dare I say desperation?
I am terrified a macho reaction will lead to more martyrs etc.
even blair is shittin, " we stand sholder to sholder"..means come on world if we dont get involved who knows what dubwa will do.
some cu*t on killroy this am saying "the isralie policy of assination is now proven to be the right solution"...yeah right sharon's policys have really brought peace. Just the opposite.
I can only prey the factions in the US of the about time we did something (ex state dept)and racist anti arabic sentiments dont get the better of the situation.
afghanistan may be a fucked up oppressive regiem.. all the more reason not to take it out on those already suffering, tantamount to bombing a concentration camp to piss off the germans, an inflammatory analogy there
but an emotional day.
It is strange hoe everyone assumes that the planning and logisitics of this suggests a whole Country or Nation HAVE to be involved.
Point of fact : This has taken to our knowledge a few knives a couple of pilots and some knowledge of plane times. Why this has obviously been very very well planned, it could have been carried out by a few nutters of any political persusaion or anyone with a grudge against America.It dosen't need to have be the act of a whole Nation.
if you continually repress and subjugate people you drive from them any form of respect or value for human life. i fear that the tragic harvest we are now reaping, and may continue to reap, is the result of this. the absence of a knee jerk reaction at the present time gives me a faint sliver of hope that we may avoid an escalating spiral of destruction...however this is but a sliver.
the hesitation is probably more to do with the inability of the US to find a target on which to vent it's anger and indignation.
is it time for an eye for an eye or to turn the other cheek? the prospect of an honourable defiance of such hideous carnage is a remote one, as the gung-ho war-mongers plot what will likely be "massive, decisive (sic.) retaliation" in which more innocents will die.
Unfortunately President Bush's address last night seems to have contained the sort of stuff you'd expect from him - military ready etc. School playground politics.
Its defining moments like this that show whether a politician has the qualities to act a statesman. I wouldn't be too optimistic and I suspect Tony Blair is highly lacking in this respect too.
Comments, what can you say, I feel numbed or something It is one of those subjects we are going to say in years time where were you when?
What happened was disgusting waste of life, I can not express how I feel properly, sickened, frightened, sympathetic and many more emotions.
What everyone needs to do is see that so far there are no definite answers to this and do not jump to conclusions.
I Think that America (state) has been careful not to attempt to extend blame and will need strong proof before reacting because the whole world is watching.
As I said before my deepest sympathies go out to All the families that lost brothers/sisters/daughters/ sons/ fathers/ mothers any family friends yesterday.
Peace Out!
I totally disagree.This has taken to our knowledge a few knives a couple of pilots and some knowledge of plane times.
To co-ordinate 4 planes flying simulaneously (Within 1/2 hour of each other) into three different targets.
How easy is it to hijack a plane in the first place?
You still have to smuggle those weapons onto four planes that are all due to take off at the same time. Assuming no-one resits the hijack, you then have to make them fly hundreds of miles along the East Coast and at an appropriate time take the controls and fly into a target less than 100 metres wide at very low altitude.
If that isn't hard enough to do, remember the fact these people knew they were about to die!
probably a lot easier if you're white and americanHow easy is it to hijack a plane in the first place?
McVeigh was not a lone operative, these people want a third world war
maybe I'm jumping to conclusions but the prime suspect has denied responsibility for an act that would have been his crowning glory.
I am very shocked and I have no real words to describe what I felt yesterday and now. I guess intense emotional pain. I also have a few friends in NY and DC, I hope to receive emails from them soon. I hope none of them was near when it happened.
One shouldn't jump to conclusions of about who it was, that is very dangerous. I hope this doesn't result in worsened islamophobia recations as it did at oklahoma.
I don't know what I really think, still quite numb I guess.
Should America retaliate in the Middle East
and hit Afghanistan or Iraq hard - does any
one know if there are States or Groups in the
region able to respond with nuclear or biological weapons? How far could this escalate? Does anyone know of a bunker near
Brixton?
My reaction: Extremely depressed. Is there really no hope for us all?
-sub-
Al Bert, if the USA retaliates and bombs Iraq or Afganistan then thousands more people will be killed and injured so of course it shouldn't how can you say something so stupid! The USA should just go afteer the people responsible. By the way the main suspect is Osma BIn Laden, yet the CIA trained and funded his terrorist group during the war in Afganistan in the 1980s.
Al Bert.
Locally Capable (short range missiles only), but not necessarily possible: Pakistan, India, China.
Internationally capable -ICBM Rresponse- (but again unlikely): China, Russia.
However, gung-ho as Bush is, I sincerely hope he has more sense than that.
-Sub-
Steelgate - I hate to be pedantic here, but
"should" is a modal verb with 2 meanings -
a) Will the US be OBLIGED to " go in."
No, I did not mean that. I meant
b) IF the US goes in.
It was merely a request for information, not
rhetoric.
So don't call me stupid!
If it is Bin Laden then there will be a huge amount of irony involved, he was trained, financed and armed by the CIA who built for him many of his training camps. THe aim was to get him to fight the Soviet Union as they were occupying Afganistan but when they left he now sees the USA as occupying holy sites (the US army is station near Islam's most holy site) so he is now attacking the hand that fed him. If the US creates monsters (eg. Saddam) then they can't expect them to remain subservient tools forever and if it wasn't for the horrific loss of life I would sya this is America's just desserts. But none of the workers in the WTC deserved to die, and their families and friends deserved even less to lose their loved ones, wiping out any joy I could of had at America's humiliation..
Well, I come late in the day to this one. I have never, never experienced anything like this in my whole life. Trying to work today is difficult - I can't switch off to what's happened and feel that everything else is a paper-cut out reality - shallow, meaningless meetings, reports about nothing and nothing. Being stopped in the street today by a smiling girl asking if I was interested in a special offer at the hairdressers - WTF? She didn't look so smiley after the look I threw her. Unconscious, but from the heart.
The horror of yesterday was quickly compounded with the horror of having Bush in the White House at this time - and all those of like-minded attitude for whom he is just a puppet.
The repercussions continually fire off in my brain - realistically, what will this mean for all of us in terms of freedom of expression, civil liberties, the right to demonstrate, to organise an opposition to injustices we see about us.
Beyond that, what does it mean for asylum seekers, for racial minorities in our and other countries - too many people's minds are too closed off already and knee-jerk reactions are all too common.
I've felt an anxiety inside me which has been an ever present companion for months now - a malaise at the world in general. I still was unable to imagine something like this. I feel sick. I remember standing beneath the WTC and just looking up and up and up and feeling dizzy from the sheer size of them. I am sad for all of us.
I thought freethepeeps last comment on the closed WTC thread was worth transferring to this one for reaction/comments/debate :
FTP said :
"I question how "innocent" we are, when we enjoy the material rewards of the oppressive world economic system and do not debate the deaths of the many people who die daily, who are more innocent in that they are not enjoying material awards, do not have access to the same kind of information and are suffering because of drought, starvation or dictatorships propped up with Western arms and money.
The twin towers are a rich symbol of US Capitalism, the pentagon is the ultimate symbol of US militarism and they were attacked, and I do not see how we judge those actions.
Blair and Bush are both talking about our democracy and social justice (= good) and the "evil" of those who attacked those symbols yesterday.
Once again, yesterday while this was all going off in the States, protestors in London were treated to an insight into the real merits of democracy and social justice as police stifled dissent and punched protestors in their faces, later baton charging them as well.
Are we good - Are they evil.
Are we justified in our behaviour?
Are they justified in theirs?
I don't know how to answer to the last one"
My reaction : no cause justifies ANY kind of carnage, suffering, death, and there's nothing you can say about the iniquities of capitalism and the wrongheadedness of US foreign policy that would persuade me that yesterday's happenings are in any way "justifiable" on any level. So I do know the answer in my own (pacifist) mind to that very last question.
I say that even though I would would go a long way in agreeing with many of FTP's criticisms, separately considered.
You can link the US policy and yesterday's appalling happenings in terms of political and historial analysis, looking for the reason "why", etc. but on any humanitarian consideration, it's insensitive at the very least to blur the issues --- people died yesterday and most peoples first, second and third reaction to that was to express concern, horror, upsetness, etc., etc., at the loss of human life.
The humanitarian instincts of most people here have been very reassuring and encouraging at this worrying time.
Peace, love to all
W of W
Check out the afghan opposition web site if your interested in the background - main facts appear to be correct - although one should be clear about the bias it has pro Massoud anti taliban
[link]http://www.afgha.com/index.php[/link]
also has links to the frontier post and Dawn for the pk press reaction.
moral rightousness kills
am i an idiot, or, if Bin Laden did this, wouldn't he have admitted it? After all, this, for him, would be a crowning glory. Not aditting ownership of this surely means that all 'his' planning has been in vain, as he will get no 'credit' for it?
W o W
I am sad that so many people have been killed. I mourn for them and their families. I also feel that there is now going to be a concerted effort by politicians and the media to drum up some kind of phony nationalism as a result of the horror that we have seen on our television screens.
For the people who did this, assuming that they are some kind of islamic fundamentalist group or country, I can only assume that it is anger at the way that they are treated by the US, revenge for those they know who have been killed, and a desire to see a different world that has motivated the attack. I do not know, because I have never been one of the oppressed people of the third world. If I was, I may well have been one of those dancing on the streets of Palestine yesterday. I just don't know.
But it seems imperative that we do not ignore the everyday horrors of the world we live in, that we do not go down the road of demanding revenge for this attack on "our" people. It seems that it is time for everyone to think about the kind of world we live in, that we reflect on the bad things that happen, and that we look for a way forward that seeks to minimise pain, suffering and death.
We retaliate, they retaliate, we retaliate... seems a very grim and frightening prospect and is not one that I relish.
In our immediate reaction of horror, we must not forget why this horrible thing has happened. If we want it to stop, we must look at addressing the root causes of the problems.
Hope that makes some kind of sense to you!
Posting Permissions
