Alternative Welsh History!

[Udo Erasmus]

http://assyrianrod.blogspot.com/2008...lesfuture.html

The Red Remembrancer has launched a new blog: http://assyrianrod.blogspot.com

Alternative history is all the rage, you know the stuff, what if the French won the battle of Trafalgar? or Philip K Dick's "The Man in the High Castle" set in a world where the Japanese and Germans won World War 2 with the Japanese ruling California & East America ruled by the Germans. A science fiction author writes an underground novel that is an alternative history about a world where the Allies won the war that becomes a rallying point for the resistance. You get alternative histories where the Reformation never happened and 20th century is a Catholic theocracy etc. Or where the Roman Empire never collapsed.

So here's the deal, I invite Urbanites to think up scenarios for Alternative Welsh History . . .

The best entries will be rewarded with the Order of Dewi Sant

[lewislewis]

Good read, but he's a bit nuts!

[Udo Erasmus]

Good read, but he's a bit nuts!

yes, that's what I like

[Gavin Bl]

How about the one, when in the middle of 19thC, Merthyr as largest town in Wales, and largest iron producer in the world, replaces Cardiff as capital?

Becomes a city of 500,000 rather than a town 50,000 - Cardiff becomes a suburb of Penarth.

[Udo Erasmus]

How would the Merthyr Rising relate to your alternative scenario? Did it win?
Maybe we could write an alternative history where the Merthyr Rising lasts for around 6 months rather than a wekk, a radical republic a la the Paris Commune is set up.

The story could take place in the aftermath of defeat with flashbacks to the first workers state and the other uprisings that were staged in neighbouring towns and villagesHundreds of workers have been put to the sword in an orgy of vengeance by the ruling class (just as thousands were murdered in the aftermath of the commune in Paris in 1871). A young rebel, Dic Penderyn is on the run, having escaped the gallows . . . Jacobin and secret societies abound. Fear in the land, as martial law is imposed across Wales. Lewislewis is rumoured to be in Ireland, but is in fact hiding out in West Wales, his presence is exposed to the authorities by a seasonal worker who has travelled from Carmarthen to Merthyr to work in the out-of-harvest time.

[teqniq]

Funnily enough a guy called Owen Sheers has an opening for his new novel at Canton Library this Saturday at 2.30 pm. apparently an alternative history where Britian lost WW2. I believe it must be this book.

E2A Actually here's a link to his site.

[Belushi]

apparently an alternative history where Britian lost WW2.

The Silent Village

http://www.screenonline.org.uk/film/id/998098/

My Grandad played the miners leader who leads the men out on strike, an uncle and aunt appeared briefly as two of the children

[Udo Erasmus]

My favourite alternative WW2 history is an anti-Nazi film called "It happened Here" made in the 60s, it tells the story of the Nazi occupation of Britain and intercut real life interviews with members of the British Union Fascists that really showed what it was all about. It also features stuff like a euthanasia programme that really expose hitler-fascism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Happened_Here

[Gavin Bl]

How would the Merthyr Rising relate to your alternative scenario? Did it win?
Maybe we could write an alternative history where the Merthyr Rising lasts for around 6 months rather than a wekk, a radical republic a la the Paris Commune is set up.

The story could take place in the aftermath of defeat with flashbacks to the first workers state and the other uprisings that were staged in neighbouring towns and villagesHundreds of workers have been put to the sword in an orgy of vengeance by the ruling class (just as thousands were murdered in the aftermath of the commune in Paris in 1871). A young rebel, Dic Penderyn is on the run, having escaped the gallows . . . Jacobin and secret societies abound. Fear in the land, as martial law is imposed across Wales. Lewislewis is rumoured to be in Ireland, but is in fact hiding out in West Wales, his presence is exposed to the authorities by a seasonal worker who has travelled from Carmarthen to Merthyr to work in the out-of-harvest time.

Yeah, something along the 1832/1871 line did cross my mind - that and whether the larger Merthyr would survive, compared to its history since its heyday.

How about the one where the planned bomb attack on the Royal train to the Investiture kills Charles and/or other royals, rather than the bomb makers?

Or the one where 'Welsh Not' becomes official policy, and a more fully fledged attempt is made to eradicate the language

The 'What If' series of books are a great read too

[Udo Erasmus]

On the subject of the Merthyr being the capital city. One thing we might have to surmout for "historical authenticity" is the issue how Cardiff became the main town, the conflict between valleys and coast etc.

Cardiff's rise is obviously linked to its port status and we could maybe have Cardiff as a satellite of Merthyr with some kind of big canal transporting goods to the Capital (Merthyr), would have to invent some kinda background to how this came about. Cardiff would essentially be orientated towards serving the needs of Merthyr.

[Udo Erasmus]

I've never read it, but Raymond Williams "The Volunteers" probably comes under the category of Welsh alternative history, set in 1987

The novel begins in media res, on 9 July 1987 - Nineteen Eighty- Four had begun on 4 April 1984 - with news of an attempted assassination of Edmund Buxton, Secretary of State for Wales, ‘shot as a murderer and as an enemy of the people’ by the volunteer, ‘Marcus’
Lewis Redfern, the novel’s narrator and central protagonist; ‘Marcus’ and his comrades; Mark Evans, the onetime Labour junior minister turned NGO organiser; the secret ‘Volunteers’ with whom he is involved: all share connections with seventies ‘utopian’ activism.But, by virtue of these very connections, Redfern has now become a ‘consultant analyst’ for ‘Insatel’, a global satellite TV station, specialising in spectacle and news, ‘tin gods of the open sky’, as a critic describes it

[Gavin Bl]

I guess there's a question - do industrial cities end up being capitals? e.g why do the Manchesters, Turins, Chicagos of the world not end up as the Londons, Romes and Washingtons.

Might just be to do with Industrialisation as a late arrival on an already established polity. Places like Salisbury and York might be eclipsed, but power and finance is so established in a place like London, and doesn't ebb away. Don't know enough about the history of Cardiff to say if a similar process is at work.

I guess it didn't become the capital for the same reason that Manchester didn't - sufficient power and interest is already held in an existing and viable place. Though, if you look at a place like Cyfarthfa Castle, the local 'Ironmasters' would certainly have had the ego to give it a try.

[Gavin Bl]

So what about the one where the royal train to the investiture is successfully attacked, derails, carnage, dead and wounded royals all over the place.

Given that the Investiture was actually pretty popular with whole swathes of welsh people (god knows why, they even did the damn thing in Caernarfon castle, talk about rubbing our noses in it) its not like there would have been dancing in the streets, but an English speaking Army turn up in North Wales, hamfisted job is done of rooting out WAWR and other groups - elements of local population radicalised

Does north wales turn into a low-level Ulster with the sectarian divide replaced by the linguistic one?

Does antipathy become generalised towards Welsh people in other parts of the UK?




Or is there just a quick police round up, lots of anti-Welsh jokes, and Andrew or Edward become Prince of Wales?

(right, thats my lunch break over!)

[Udo Erasmus]

So what about the one where the royal train to the investiture is successfully attacked, derails, carnage, dead and wounded royals all over the place.

Given that the Investiture was actually pretty popular with whole swathes of welsh people (god knows why, they even did the damn thing in Caernarfon castle, talk about rubbing our noses in it) its not like there would have been dancing in the streets, but an English speaking Army turn up in North Wales, hamfisted job is done of rooting out WAWR and other groups - elements of local population radicalised

Does north wales turn into a low-level Ulster with the sectarian divide replaced by the linguistic one?

Does antipathy become generalised towards Welsh people in other parts of the UK?

Or is there just a quick police round up, lots of anti-Welsh jokes, and Andrew or Edward become Prince of Wales?

(right, thats my lunch break over!)

I think your idea would work well as a TV series.

You should send your idea to BBC Wales or S4C. What with all these "Life in Mars" TV shows, the 60s nostalgia might go down quite well with viewers and opportunity to mix high comedy with gripping drama. A kind of political thriller a la John Le Carre.

[lewislewis]

Good thread. Not very exciting or dramatic, but what if the 79 devolution referendum had been won? Bit of a major 'what if', haha.

[llantwit]

Not very exciting or dramatic, but...

Nail... on... head...

[Gavin Bl]

I think your idea would work well as a TV series.

You should send your idea to BBC Wales or S4C. What with all these "Life in Mars" TV shows, the 60s nostalgia might go down quite well with viewers and opportunity to mix high comedy with gripping drama. A kind of political thriller a la John Le Carre.

I might just give that some thought - copyrights mine!!

[Bernie Gunther]

What if Llywelyn ap Gruffydd had been a bit sneakier and his brother Dafydd hadn't been such a short-sighted selfish dickhead and they'd worked together somewhat more effectively and used guerilla warfare to make Edward I fuck off?

[agricola]

What if Llywelyn ap Gruffydd had been a bit sneakier and his brother Dafydd hadn't been such a short-sighted selfish dickhead and they'd worked together somewhat more effectively and used guerilla warfare to make Edward I fuck off?

Or if they had just sucked up to Edward I, waited until he died and Edward II came to the throne and then thrown the English out.

Personally though the most interesting bit must surely be if Hotspur had won the battle of Shrewsbury, or (better yet) not had to fight it without support - Henry IV would have been beaten, Henry V (or of Monmouth as he then was) would have died on the field (he was horribly wounded by an arrow during the battle) and Glyndwr would have faced his "allies" from the Triparitite Indenture (who lets face it would have betrayed him, but they were of a far lesser calibre (Hotspur and Thomas Percy, and Edmund Mortimer) than either Henry) with French support against a weak English king.

[Udo Erasmus]

The weird but brillian work of John Cowper Powys such as the dostoevskyesque Porius might come under the category of Alternative History

Regarding Lewislewis' scenario, I think that it would work quite well as a factual programme. One could have people who participated in the 79 devolution debate looking back on the struggle and then thinking hypothetically what would have happened with a Welsh Assembly say on the great upheavals in the Thatcher era, when Labour as the opposition was very strong etc.

[Udo Erasmus]

Welsh historical films from youtube
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wa...1466-21793332/