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So an MEP making a public statement will stop the School for Slaughter? The Key issue... Really?Originally Posted by Udo Erasmus
I find it interesting that rather than discussing how we stop the St Athan deal - is anyone down in Cardiff talking to the PCS about joint work? - there's an unhealthy obsession with one political party's stance.
Plaid's got it all wrong on this issue and it's not too late to campaign along with the unions and local people on the various issues of concern.
This really is feeble even by your standards Niclas.
Are you really arguing that the position of a party in government in the Welsh Assembly, the second biggest party in Wales is of no significance?
If prominent politicians in Wales publicly opposed St Athan's, do you not think this would raise the profile of the campaign? Respect sent press releases to the local press when the contract was first being discussed - but a small party has trouble gettng press coverage (the press releases were not printed!), the Deputy Leader of Plaid has a media platform.
As it happens a Respect member who is Vice-Chair of PCS Wales has raised the issue at union meetings, unfortunately the right wing of the Union used IWJs argument about jobs. If Plaid and Labour left wingers had taken a strong stance against St Athan's it would have strengthened the hand of trade unionists who want to raise this in their union.
In the media (that inevitably helps shape public opinion) debates are framed within the terms of the mainstream parties. If Plaid had opposed St Athan's it would have helped exert pressure on Rhodri Morgan.
But Plaid are a capitalist party like the others and their "anti-war" stance is expendable especially as they are now propping up an ailing new labour administration.
What a disgrace that a Plaid left winger won't condemn a military academy in Wales!
This is not an aberation (as Niclas tries to claim) But flows from the kind of politics of class collaboration that nationalism represents.
Last edited by Udo Erasmus; 13-09-2007 at 10:11.
To Col_Buendia, you are correct that councillors have little influence on Whitehall. But if Plaid Councillors (one of whom I mentioned is now the Chief Executive of Plaid) came out publicly against St Athan's it would sharpen the debate within the party and put pressure on AMs and MEPs to come out publicly.
I think it is a shame that no proper campaign can now be built against it because I would rather the academy did not come to St. Athan, even despite the jobs etc.
There is an argument that public statements by Plaid MEP/Am's/councillors would raise the profile of the debate but it has much less chance of succeeding than, say, the anti-war movement had of succeeding. The reason I am not bothered or concerned though about criticisms from the far-left is because in my experience they are not in it for the long haul in terms of building Wales, they just want to recruit members and sell papers, which is even more of a sell out than the view of some leading Plaid members. I'm not saying this as an unfounded slur either because I was quite heavily involved in the SWP- although not a member I did attend three of your meetings out of curiosity and excitement, I know the ideas that are at work and the attitude taken towards other parties of all colours.
And again, it isn't Plaid that's bringing the academy to Wales, same as the nuclear power. We just get criticism focused on us by far-left activists because a) we're real people and will most likely try to explain ourselves on the internet or in person, and b) we are (rightly or wrongly, whatever your view) perceived as being to the left of Labour.
One positive point is that the current Plaid National Conference in Llandudno has passed a number of motions that put the party to the left of New Labour (though not as left as Udo Erasmus wants). One of these is that Wales as a nation should be removed totally from the arms trade. Of course figuring out how to realise this is another matter, but the political will is there. I think the problem is that the area of 'Defence' is never going to be devolved to Wales, and won't be under our control until independence.
* The nuclear issue is now put to bed. Plaid is now opposed to any new nuclear power stations in Wales (although I personally wouldn't mind a continuation at Wylfa).
* Call for a referendum on the European Treaty (no commitment to either yes or no) and the end to the UK's opt-out of the Charter of Fundamental Human Rights.
* Call for the immediate withdrawal of British troops from Iraq.
* Number of Welsh MP's should be reduced, and number of AM's increased.
* Call for the devolution of the criminal justice system to Wales, and for a reduction in the number of people in prison and a focus on rehabilitation.
Other reports
* Leanne Wood suugesting the supervised medical prescription of heroin for drug addicts.
* An English language National Theatre should be realised within the next few years courtesy of Plaid.
* Some members including Elfyn Llwyd MP want Plaid to drop their policy of refusing to nominate Plaid members to the House of Lords (but that the House should be entirely elected).
* Within the party, all dissent and debate when Plaid are in government will be tolerated and allowed (as it should be).
* Alot of people want the female-first AM nomination policy to be dropped.
Ieuan Wyn Jones- “Those amongst Welsh Labour MPs who are regressive Unionist have already complained that the One Wales programme of government looks like the Plaid Cymru manifesto. What a shame!”
That's interesting. Given that the St Athan project is in many ways a public-private partnership with amongst other companies, the missile manufacturer Raytheon you'd think that that'd be reason enough for plaid members to campaign against it.
I'd like to discuss some other points, too, but I'm working away, and am just grabbing a minute to reply here.
With your undoubted polemical skills,now that Respects imploding,why dont you join Plaid?
Bolster up the Left Wing of Plaid-Vote Plaid with no illusions etc
Fully agree, repent while you still can Udo : p
Two pieces of advice for Udo Erasmus- you have to make your decision soon!:
“The possibility exists of a radical alliance between the left and the national movement. The Left must recognise the radical potential of the submerged nations of Europe and we must recognise that the case for national freedom is to transform societies according to the principle of community socialism.”
Phil Williams, 1982
“Many who used to think of Wales as a British region, and of themselves as British Labour, think now of Wales as their nation, as their country, and of themselves as Welsh. If this change develops then it is bad news for the British Government and the British Labour Party, for it may presage a fusion of the national and the labour movement in Wales into such a powerful force that a free and just Wales may emerge”
Gwynfor Evans, 1980
Sorry to quote myself - but to rephrase, I think it's impossible that Plaid can say it's against the arms trade and not against the 'school for slaughter'/'murder academy'/insert pithy nomencalture here. The whole project is so bound up with arms companies like Raytheon it's unbelievable.
Also, it seems a bit odd to decide not to oppose the St Athan Academy on the pragmatic grounds that there's little chance of a campaign actually winning, and then commit your party to the mammoth task of extricating Wales from the arms industry. Actually folowing through on the arms trade aim would mean closing down many large and small businesses and booting them out over the border - something I doubt any mainstream political party has got the stomach for.
Big ones around here would have to include the massive General Dynamics plant in Gwent, and the ginormous BAE/Royal Ordnance factory at Glascoed (where they manufacture weapons made of depleted uranium) amongst many more. Given that no ruling politician in the UK has ever made a decision that detrimentally affected BAE systems I can't imagine in my wildest dreams that any future assembly govt would break that habit.
I have no idea what the actually resolution was, I just got it from the press. Would be interesting to see how an independent Wales could be removed from the arms trade. Are there any European states not involved in the arms trade?
Bigger works have closed in Wales - Brymbo, Ebbw Vale, Llanwern steelworks, Trawsfynydd was a huge local employer... employment changes. It can be done with the political will.
Which brings us back to St Athan - I don't believe it's a done deal. There have been promises to bring thousands of jobs there in the past and they haven't materialised. Also, isn't the Metrix consortium making noises about needing other aspects of deals to come through before continuing?
I'm not too clear what the campaign is currently doing - are any Urbanites able to enlighten us? - but with a left-wing leadership in the PCS union opposing the privatisation of training, that should be a good starting point for opposition. Is the PCS still opposing it? If so, how?
What else? Local opposition based on concerns about the impact on housing, roads and schools can be NIMBYish but again it's all part of building a coalition. Has anyone been down to the Vale to test the water with a leaflet or a meeting? Would the PCS come down for a meeting?
Building a coalition of union concern, community concern, peaceniks and the broader socialist/anarchist opposition to militarism seems like a way forward, even at this late stage. Is that happening? I've checked the Cynefin y Werin site but no info beyond the last demo.
The campaign's in its infancy at the moment. The major thing that has been done is the writing of a report by a Cardiff-based academic called Stuart Tannock - it's good, and addresses a number of issues such as the base's links to privatisation, educational institutions, the arms trade, high-tech military war, and training foreign officers from 'our' allies armies. They're in the process of getting an edition published properly, and I'll post up a PDF here when it's ready.
There've only been a few meetings so far, and there have mainly been CND-style peaceniks, church-based peace groups, and anarchists there. I agree totally with everything you've said Niclas, and don't think it's too late to turn this around. Also on the union front - it'd be great to link this to organised labour somehow. Do you think you could pass on any contacts to me in the PCS that you have so I can sound them out?
On the Nimby front - we haven't been down apart from a brief photo-call thing outside the base, but the locals we did speak to then were all broadly in favour, and a bit curous as to why we were there. There isn't a local opposition, as far as I know. Leafletting and a meeting would be a very good start to sound this out more, though. I'll sugest it at the next meeting.
Do you think you'll be able to make it down at any point?
Yes, Tannock's report is good. I understand 2000 have just been printed as a short pamphlet. It's being discussed at the Welsh Peace Festival in Caernarfon this Saturday.
Will get in touch off-list re the PCS contacts, although I'm sure a few lurkers on this list are better placed than me re S Wales.
The NIMBY thing arose from some comments I saw from Chris Franks, Plaid AM from Dinas Powys, about the impact on schools and roads. Let's face it, a few cleaning and catering jobs ain't going to win over some of the leafier areas of the Vale if they think it's going to hurt property prices.
We took the campaign to the Cardiff Stop the War Coalition last night to see if they'd support us. I honestly thought it would be open and shut... but the SWP members present argued vociferously (and in some cases quite rudely and abusively) against, so it didn't go through.
The argument was that the focus should be kept on the war, and getting as many people as possible on-board. The 'potentially divisive' and 'ultra-left' and 'marxist' arguments against the St Athan academy were deemed likely to put people off the Stop the War movement. Given the fact that the St Athan campaign is made up largely of peace campaigners with hardly a Marxist in sight at the moment I found the whole thing quite bizarre.
Yet more wierd sectarian bullshit from the swoppies, I'm afraid.
Wales FESC (UCU further ed section) has given its support to the St Athan resolution we have submitted to STW conference. For more on that, Cardiff STW etc, see www.cardiffpr.wordpress.com.
Last edited by penderyn2000; 19-10-2007 at 18:06.
Apparently Jill Evans MEP is suggesting that Plaid should clarfiy their position and either oppose the development or campaign for the Assembly to be given a role in overseeing the development. Could be an interesting debate within the next few months.
Only be interesting if a group of anti- AMs form some time soon. Otherwise any 'debate' will be a bit of a non event, surely. Still nobody's come out against it.
No-one's mentioned yet that PR's resolution to Stop The War Coalition conference was overwhelmingly carried. Theoretically all STW branches will be getting involved in educating people about St Athan, and STW will be holding a demo against it. More details at http://cardiffpr.wordpress.com.
Fair play!
Can you see the 'majority element' in Cardiff STW getting behind this?
Flabergasted. Will check out the blog.
The Western Mail (in the shape of Martin Shipton, a character I knew well at college as an unprincipled muckraker) has finally condescended to print criticisms of St Athan - ie the role of Raytheon in cluster bombing - followed by refutations from Raytheon and Rhodri Morgan, both printed without comment. PR have therefore made a few comments of our own at http://cardiffpr.wordpress.com.
I've always found MS to be a good sort.
Anyway, there's always space in this world for unprincipled muck-rakers Dic.
Last edited by llantwit; 09-11-2007 at 14:42.
Word is out then!
"Vale Labour MP John Smith said her comments were "dangerous nonsense"."
If this project had needed approval from the Welsh Assembly Government it would never have gotten through. There are much better ways to 'develop' Wales that won't involve cluster bombs. I fully support Jill Evans' resolution and hope it is voted through on Saturday. We must have a strong Welsh Parliament and in future a self-governing Wales to stop these unethical developments being foisted on us. More importantly a strong mass campaign against the project should be forged, and if this resolution gets carried on Saturday it will have the support of alot of Plaid members.
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