Are the Welsh a separate "race"?

[TeeJay]

Over to you.

[ernestolynch]

What's it to do with you?

[butchersapron]

*unsubscribes from thread*
and
*bangs on perspex screen*

[Pingu]

no we are not a seperate race.. a seperate culture yes.

Try this same thread but using "indians" or Jamacans" and see what sort of response you get




muppet

[ernestolynch]

*Votes the opposite of Teejay's vote*
AND
*Tears England flag off of flimsier (thief)'s car*

*And bangs on perspex screen after butchers*

[butchersapron]

*Votes the opposite of Teejay's vote*
AND
*Tears England flag off of flimsier (thief)'s car*

*And bangs on perspex screen after butchers*

and
*puts moron back on ignore*

[Pingu]

anyone got a book going on how long till this hits the bin?

[ernestolynch]

*Votes the opposite of Teejay's vote*
AND
*Tears England flag off of flimsier (thief)'s car*

*And bangs on perspex screen after butchers*

and
*puts moron back on ignore*

and
*Unsubscribes to thread*

[Belushi]

A separate ethnic group rather than a separate race, but it really depends on what you mean by 'race'.

[butchersapron]

*and goes to do some work*

[Funky_monks]

No, Wales is a nation where the *Welsh* live. Many separate *races* exist there.


Twat.




<edited to add> If you really are that bothered about the various *races* present in Wales try reading "A History of Wales" by John Davies. If, as I suspect you're being a trolling prick, you can fuck off.

[ernestolynch]

Rascist!!!:mad:

[Jorum]

All in all race is a fairly artificial idea.

You can look at genetic similarities in groups, but even then it doesn't really equate to anything meaningful.

Social customs etc are more meaningful, but that isn't what most people call "race" anyway.
Although it is fairly meaningless, people might be interested to know that there is apparently quite a noticable genetic "divide" between the welsh and other UK populations. (for example english/europe is generally much closer genetically)

Although the mDNA analysis methods usually used for these comparisons are, in the opinion of some, faulty and misleading.

[Corax]

Someone was bored and wanted a fight then...

[ernestolynch]

Are the Japs a seperate race? What about the Septics?

[bosco]

what about the goms?

:(

[ernestolynch]

or the gays? :confused:

[goldenecitrone]

Don't know about race, but a different species, definitely

[Macabre]

Genetically celts have different characteristic markers from the english but the expresion of these genes doesnt create a distinct physical difference. So genetically yes they are but in practice no.

[ernestolynch]

What about all the Scots ginger nuts then ?

[veracity]

A separate race from whom?

Oh do grow up.

:rolleyes:

[rubbershoes]

gertcha

http://www.pbase.com/image/19756042.jpg

[Strumpet]

*wanders in.....looks around....* :rolleyes:

gwirionyn @ TeeJay :p

[ernestolynch]

Mae'r boi Teejay yn ddigri iawn pan mae o wedi ddechrau malu cachu fel hyn, y twp.

[FreddyB]

My cousins welsh and he's in a seperate reality. Nothin to do with him bein welsh, he's just a nutter.

[Pingu]

actually if being pedantic are we gogs a seperate race from the southern welsh?


my favourite race was the 800 metres I was quite good at that

[ernestolynch]

Gogs are racially purer than the hwntwrs. On Ynys Mon you will find the purest Cymric race. On Lleyn the blood was mixed with Irish from Leinster (hence the name). Further East towards the Clwydian Range you will encounter a mixture of Pure Cymry and Brythonic refugees from Elmet and other Celtic nations over-run by the Hunnish invaders.

In the midlands - Powys - you will find a hybrid of Cymry and some Mercian stock, from when Welsh raiders would kidnap the less-ugly women of Saxon race and take them back to breed.

Pembrokeshire is known as Little England although French and Flemish were settled there by the Norman overlords, then English people were settled and the local Welsh kicked off the land.

In the South Wales industrial heartlands you will find a mongrelised Welshman - a mixture of immigrants during the industrial age from Italy, Spain, Ireland, Scotland and England.

Monmouthshire (Gwent) are practically English.

Kernow (Cernyw) was known as 'South Wales' until recently and the Cornish race is the same as the Cymric, as are the Bretons in Breizh, who fled overseas to escape the Germanic hordes.

;)

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, TJ.

[Hocus Eye.]

Come on then Ernesto lets have your Bibliography and other sources for this. Have you got any primary evidence?

Hocus Eye - you'm not from round these parts are you?

[ernestolynch]

*Taps on head*
Its all up here, kid.

[Funky_monks]

"Racially purer" eh, Ern?

Does this mean that someone from Rhyl is more "genetically pure" than someone from Pontyprydd?

The whole question's fucked up if you ask me. It's the same as asking if the English or French or Spanish etc are a 'race'. Your race is not nescessarily based on your geographical location, is it?


If you want an example of how many 'races' are also Welsh, take a look at the national rugby team. :p

[Streathamite]

If you regard the anglo-saxons as a race, and the Seppoes as a race by now, and the Franks, then yes.
Some I know see all these groups as nations, and part of the caucasian race.
As one who says 'long live racial interbreeding' and 'up the mongrels' (mongrels like me), I'd say it's dangerous to get obsessed by all these issues of racial status/purity.

[ernestolynch]

"Racially purer" eh, Ern?

Does this mean that someone from Rhyl is more "genetically pure" than someone from Pontyprydd?.

Duw duw duw.

The only pure thing Rhylians concern themselves with is their bags of smack!

[Funky_monks]

If you regard the anglo-saxons as a race, and the Seppoes as a race by now, and the Franks, then yes.
Some I know see all these groups as nations, and part of the caucasian race.
As one who says 'long live racial interbreeding' and 'up the mongrels' (mongrels like me), I'd say it's dangerous to get obsessed by all these issues of racial status/purity.

Yes, but there are many French people who aren't 'Frankish' and many Americans who aren't Native Americans. And yes, I do find all this talk of race in this context mildly disturbing. Oh, and I'm very much a mongrel too (albeit one who's ancestors where all caucasian). :cool:

[Pingu]

Does this mean that someone from Rhyl is more "genetically pure" than someone from Pontyprydd?


oh come on now... fairs fair.. probably a scouser if living in rhyl at this time of year anyhow. :)

seeing as I am originally from Bae Cemaes I now feel quite smug.. in a welsh sort of way.

so whos up for a rumble then? we will drive our sheep south and you drive yours north and we can have a "battle of the flocks" in say... welshpool?

[Funky_monks]

Duw duw duw.

The only pure thing Rhylians concern themselves with is their bags of smack!

oh come on now... fairs fair.. probably a scouser if living in rhyl at this time of year anyhow.

I have a Rhylian mate who would probably resent being called a smackhead and a Scouser. I imagine he might decide to punch you in the face and nick your wallet upon being called either (note: this is not a serious comment). :p

Eh! Eh! Calm down!

[WasGeri]

I voted yes.

So are the Cornish.

[tom796]

In the midlands - Powys - you will find a hybrid of Cymry and some Mercian stock, from when Welsh raiders would kidnap the less-ugly women of Saxon race and take them back to breed.

aaacchhhummm! the mercians were not saxons, ern, but angles. really old chap, if you're going to play the game...

:rolleyes:

[ernestolynch]

Angles, Saxons, all fucking big-nosed Krauts to me, boyo. Hairy-arse women and weak-chinned men!

[Funky_monks]

Just to labout my original point pedantically and somewhat annoyingly. Both of these sporting personalities are Welsh. Are they of the same race?

1)
http://www.100welshheroes.com/images/colin_jackson120.jpg

2)
http://media.rivals.net/media/jpg%5C2001112900651148.jpg

[ernestolynch]

You're an English anyway aren't you fyncimyncs? Whassit to yee?

[Pickman's model]

didn't tom jones sing something about the grass of home?

a song i'm sure TeeJay would appreciate.

[Dr. Christmas]

*bangs head off perspex screen*

TJ= Trolling Jizzstain....

[ernestolynch]

For someone who denies the existence of 'races' he's pretty much a full-blown rascist like his 'idiot' mate...

[Pickman's model]

he has mates? :eek:

[Dr. Christmas]

...ahh yes, the true blue middle england tory with the name of an american state....

[Pickman's model]

someone who used to own a gardening tool?

[ernestolynch]

I meant the eponymous idiot, the uncalm one...of the jasperite variety.

[Dr. Christmas]

This thread's getting like Radio Free Europe before D-Day...

[Nasal RP voice]'The Trolling Jizzstain will use a gardening tool to plough a Jasperite furrow in Middle England'[/Nasal RP voice]

[Pickman's model]

i'd a hoe?

[Funky_monks]

You're an English anyway aren't you fyncimyncs? Whassit to yee?

Well, Ern, I am and English in that I was born in England. It all depends however on how you want to define race. If you go back to my grandparents and great-grandparents generations then I'm a mongrel made up of Irish, Welsh, German and English roots. Hence my point. Although I do concede it’s a point made on an idiotic thread almost certainly intended to troll. And possibly therefore the thread may need more talk of pitched battles between various herds of sheep to take place in Welshpool than serious debate as to whether nationality constitutes race.

[Dr. Christmas]

The right implement there, pm.

[ernestolynch]

Well, Ern, I am and English in that I was born in England. It all depends however on how you want to define race. If you go back to my grandparents and great-grandparents generations then I'm a mongrel made up of Irish, Welsh, German and English roots. Hence my point. Although I do concede it’s a point made on an idiotic thread almost certainly intended to troll. And possibly therefore the thread may need more talk of pitched battles between various herds of sheep to take place in Welshpool than serious debate as to whether nationality constitutes race.

Iawn boi, but them there Japs - are they a race? That there Teejay said I was a 'rascist' for talking about my Jap's Eye...so are they a race or a nation...is there a Welsh word for 'race' anyway? Cenedl means a nation.

[jms]

Yes they are
they have enhanced vision
When they see English people, to them it looks like our foreheads are glowing
thats how they know we're English

[oddjob]

I meant the eponymous idiot, the uncalm one...of the jasperite variety.

what the fuck does that mean :(

[Dr. Christmas]

Iawn boi, but them there Japs - are they a race? That there Teejay said I was a 'rascist' for talking about my Jap's Eye...so are they a race or a nation...is there a Welsh word for 'race' anyway? Cenedl means a nation.

hiliol= rascist

hiliaeth= rascism

[ernestolynch]

In its honour, I won't answer that question. (oddjob)

[ernestolynch]

hiliol= rascist

hiliaeth= rascism

When was that put into the language, Dr C? Interested to know.

[Funky_monks]

Iawn boi, but them there Japs - are they a race? That there Teejay said I was a 'rascist' for talking about my Jap's Eye...so are they a race or a nation...is there a Welsh word for 'race' anyway? Cenedl means a nation.

I dunno about wether or not the Japanese are a race, or a nation made up of various races? I'm not up on my history of the East. I'm not sure about a Welsh word for 'race' either as my Welsh aint that fantastic. What's the Welsh for the 'tribes' that you find round here (e.g. Cofis)? Would that roughly equate to 'race'? I wouldnt take that much notice of what TJ says, he's gone from simply being dull to a trolling dickhead (IMO).

[ernestolynch]

How comes you're so sure then that the Welsh aren't a race, but you're not about the Japs? What about the Basques then? Or the Hottentots?

[Dr. Christmas]

When was that put into the language, Dr C? Interested to know.

...dunno ern...it's been the word ever since I started taking an interest in the language in the late 90s. So, since at least 1997. :D

[Dr. Christmas]

I wouldnt take that much notice of what TJ says, he's gone from simply being dull to a trolling dickhead (IMO).

ain't that the truth....


...I always thought 'Cofi' was the term for someone from Caernarfon. No?

[Funky_monks]

How comes you're so sure then that the Welsh aren't a race, but you're not about the Japs? What about the Basques then? Or the Hottentots?

Because I know diddly squat about Japan. I'm guessing the Basques are a race, which kind of illustrates my point. They don't have a nation as such, do they (at least not 'officially')? And again I'm pretty sure there are many 'races' within the nation that is Wales, including all those which you mentioned in your previous post about the make-up of the genetics of various regions of Wales and various others who may have immigrated later, such as those of Italian, Afro-Carribean, Pakistani, Indian, etc etc (and of the races which may exist in those geographical areas) descent who can all call themselves 'Welsh'.

[Streathamite]

there's a question lurking at the heart of this; what is the difference between a 'race' and a 'nation' - can anyone come up with a good explanation of the distinction?

[Funky_monks]

...I always thought 'Cofi' was the term for someone from Caernarfon. No?

It is, in essence. But the way it was explained to me by a person who lives there, is that to be a true 'Cofi' you and your family have to have lived inside the old city walls for as long as anyone can remember. Or something like that. I was quie drunk at the time. Maybe Ern can clarify more?

[WasGeri]

Is it true that there is a Welsh language committee that meet to make up Welsh words for things that didn't exist previously?

[Funky_monks]

there's a question lurking at the heart of this; what is the difference between a 'race' and a 'nation' - can anyone come up with a good explanation of the distinction?

That's what I was thinking. But I'm at a loss to come up with a coherent definition of either, as the two often appear to be intertwined. Perhaps they are less intertwined now than they ever have been throughout history. :confused:

I realise this may seem hypocritical in the light of my assertation that the Welsh are not a race. But I certainly have met people in Wales who would argue strongly that they are Welsh, but also black or Asian (the first appearing to be a nationality, the second (possibly) a race).

[Idaho]

'r ddeillia ydy atalnwyd a yn diddori hun. Whereas Cymru 'n ddiau has a 'n eglur a 'n arwyddocaol gwrteithia , dydy 'n anghywir at awgryma a 'na exists rhyw seperate cenedl. Amcanion chan nationhood gwisga t 'n sylweddol gofyn rhyw racial chyfiawnhad. 'n gyfryw chyfiawnhad would i mewn itself bod 'n fawr 'n anghywir yn ôl 'n ddiweddar hymchwil.

[Strumpet]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

*snigger*

[Idaho]

...ahh yes, the true blue middle england tory with the name of an american state....

You mean there's another true blue tory on the boards with the name of an american state? Oh.. you mean me don't you.

Hehehe... because I disagree with your political views eh? Well fair enough.

[Idaho]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

*snigger*

'n chwith 'm Cymraeg ydy 'n amdlawd hyn ddiwrnodau. Amheua hunrhywun all ddeall 'i.

[oddjob]

Is it true that there is a Welsh language committee that meet to make up Welsh words for things that didn't exist previously?

well if they don't, someone else will

[ernestolynch]

'r ddeillia ydy atalnwyd a yn diddori hun. Whereas Cymru 'n ddiau has a 'n eglur a 'n arwyddocaol gwrteithia , dydy 'n anghywir at awgryma a 'na exists rhyw seperate cenedl. Amcanion chan nationhood gwisga t 'n sylweddol gofyn rhyw racial chyfiawnhad. 'n gyfryw chyfiawnhad would i mewn itself bod 'n fawr 'n anghywir yn ôl 'n ddiweddar hymchwil.

err...heinrich himmler????
:eek: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[TeeJay]

'r ddeillia ydy atalnwyd a yn diddori hun. Whereas Cymru 'n ddiau has a 'n eglur a 'n arwyddocaol gwrteithia , dydy 'n anghywir at awgryma a 'na exists rhyw seperate cenedl. Amcanion chan nationhood gwisga t 'n sylweddol gofyn rhyw racial chyfiawnhad. 'n gyfryw chyfiawnhad would i mewn itself bod 'n fawr 'n anghywir yn ôl 'n ddiweddar hymchwil.

http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran/

' group I proceed he is being complex I go interesting self. Whereas Wales ' heartburn true ace I go ' heartburn clear I go ' heartburn significant I manure , he is being ' heartburn incorrect to I hint I go ' I do exists sex seperate nation. Purposes with nationhood I dress tower ' heartburn substantial ask sex racial justification. ' heartburn like justification would in itself be ' heartburn large ' heartburn incorrect according to ' heartburn recent research.

:eek:

Sounds like he needs some Rennies!

[RubberBuccaneer]

Don't we have this argument every 3 weeks?

I would say the Celts were a race, and we're part of that race.

There was a study done a few years back showing a predominance of blood group A in North Wales akin to the Iberian Peninsular.

There was also a programme on the Valleys that showed because of the periods of migration into Wales that Pontypridd was a very English town, something as a Cardiffian cheered me up no end.

In summary we all hate each other, the closer geographically the greater the hatred, but if you so much as dare slag any of our countrymen off, we're all Welsh and stick like glue. ( it works to a cetain extent for any Celtic country too )

[Macabre]

What about all the Scots ginger nuts then ?

Thats because of a mutation, wereas I'm Scotish and have auburn hair which apparently means I've Viking blood in me.

[red3k]

My great gran only spoke Welsh, my mum's just moved there from Bristol and says everyone is SO friendly in Wales. Most of the Welsh people I've met have been clubbing in Bristol and they're always really muntered - but nice.
I love 'em.

[Idaho]

Thats because of a mutation, wereas I'm Scotish and have auburn hair which apparently means I've Viking blood in me.

We're all a mish-mash. The 'purest' human groups genetically (albeit a fundamentally flawed concept) are the Basques, Aboriginal Australians, certain central asians, Ainu of Japan and some tribes in Africa. Probably the rest of us on this board probably share common ancestors within 10 generations.

[Idaho]

I would say the Celts were a race, and we're part of that race.

There was a study done a few years back showing a predominance of blood group A in North Wales akin to the Iberian Peninsular.


Well that's settled it then :D

Celtic is really an archeological reference point rather than any definition of genetics. It refers to similar styles of art, burial and other features predominating during a certain period across areas of europe.

Recent DNA studies have also shown that Sussex and Hampshire are as genetically 'celtic' as Wales and Cornwall!

[Idaho]

http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran/

' group I proceed he is being complex I go interesting self. Whereas Wales ' heartburn true ace I go ' heartburn clear I go ' heartburn significant I manure , he is being ' heartburn incorrect to I hint I go ' I do exists sex seperate nation. Purposes with nationhood I dress tower ' heartburn substantial ask sex racial justification. ' heartburn like justification would in itself be ' heartburn large ' heartburn incorrect according to ' heartburn recent research.

:eek:

Sounds like he needs some Rennies!

Wtf! You need to get a better translator!

[ernestolynch]

Well that's settled it then :D

Celtic is really an archeological reference point rather than any definition of genetics. It refers to similar styles of art, burial and other features predominating during a certain period across areas of europe.

Recent DNA studies have also shown that Sussex and Hampshire are as genetically 'celtic' as Wales and Cornwall!

No they haven't - unless you are treating Stormfront as a proper source, nazi-boy....

[RubberBuccaneer]

Recent DNA studies have also shown that Sussex and Hampshire are as genetically 'celtic' as Wales and Cornwall!

And why not?
It's reasonable.

Interested by the purity of the Basques considering how small and enclosed they are, you'd think only the most isolated could remain 'pure' ( and hence inbred )
hang on does that make European monarchies a race?

[Funky_monks]

My great gran only spoke Welsh, my mum's just moved there from Bristol and says everyone is SO friendly in Wales.

I've generally found this to be the case too. Going to Wales from the south of England is a bit like going back up North. It's nice isn't it?

[TeeJay]

Wtf! You need to get a better translator!Any suggestions?

[Idaho]

No they haven't - unless you are treating Stormfront as a proper source, nazi-boy....

I don't really know where to start unpicking this moronic response. Calling someone 'nazi boy' is probably against the posting FAQs for starters. Secondly since when are Stormfront interested in declaring themselves Celts?

I suggest you take a night off from the sauce and clear your head.

[Idaho]

And why not?
It's reasonable.

Interested by the purity of the Basques considering how small and enclosed they are, you'd think only the most isolated could remain 'pure' ( and hence inbred )
hang on does that make European monarchies a race?

The suggestion from archeological and genetic data is that the Basques were a group that seperated off from the main emmigration from africa. Most of which went east. Eventually this eastern group returned and repopulated Europe but missed off the Basque country leaving them genetically relatively untouched.

[ernestolynch]

You're always quoting shit which is straight from Tyndall circa 1975....

[Strumpet]

My great gran only spoke Welsh, my mum's just moved there from Bristol and says everyone is SO friendly in Wales. Most of the Welsh people I've met have been clubbing in Bristol and they're always really muntered - but nice.
I love 'em.

And Wales loves you tooooooo red and funky ;) :p

[frogwoman]

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not the Celtic/Slavic/Saxon/Mediterrainean shit they love to endlessly tlak about on Stormfront.

Please no.

Next people will be wanting a "racial classifications forum". pleae dont let this happen.
Its not just racist, its truyl truly sad and pathetic.

Will you be looking at pictures of people from different countries - or celebs and saying "oh, his face looks rather nordic, but he has brachiocyphalic features, and could be 1/256ths mediterranean"?

Please, please spare me.....................:D

Anyone who has ever been on a fascist site will know what i am talking about. this classifications bullshit is beyond belief and truly tragic.

[frogwoman]

lmao@anyone who's into that sort of thing.

Its like a racist's form of stamp collecting, except that stamp collecting can be remotely interesting sometimes...

[tom796]

Recent DNA studies have also shown that Sussex and Hampshire are as genetically 'celtic' as Wales and Cornwall!

if that's true, i'd be very surprised as hampshire was the heartland of wessex and sussex probably the oldest and most insular of the saxon kingdoms. i'd be really interested to see the evidence. any links idaho?

[ernestolynch]

The BNP peddle this myth as part of their 'British race' bullshit.

[oddjob]

lmao@anyone who's into that sort of thing.

Its like a racist's form of stamp collecting, except that stamp collecting can be remotely interesting sometimes...


what does that mean :(

[Funky_monks]

Which bit do they peddle ern?

[tom796]

The BNP peddle this myth as part of their 'British race' bullshit.

and you'd never misquote, distort or outright lie to back up a spurious idea of racial purity would you ern?

:mad: :rolleyes:

[ernestolynch]

The stuff about the Celts mixing in fully and accepting the Germanics...fits in nicely with their races=black or white issues....like what Lee Jasper does as well

[Clintons Cat]

what does that mean?

the catagorisation of people innit

Like rosenberg and his catergorisations of people based on caranium size as an indicator of racial purity

[ernestolynch]

and you'd never misquote, distort or outright lie to back up a spurious idea of racial purity would you ern?

:mad: :rolleyes:

If I knew who the fuck you were I could reply - but you seem to be one of those 'rolleyes' twats.

:mad: :rolleyes: = the sign of a moron.

[MightyAphrodite]

ive never met a welsh person who wasnt kind and considerate - and ive met quite a few.
i dont know if theyre a serperate race.
they are if they wanna be i suppose.

[tom796]

so what explanation would you give for the sudden disappearance of celtic culture from england (bar cumbria and cornwall) shortly after the germanic invasions?

[tom796]

If I knew who the fuck you were I could reply - but you seem to be one of those 'rolleyes' twats.

odd thing to say.

:mad: :rolleyes: = the sign of a moron.

:D

(oops!)

[ernestolynch]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm

[Funky_monks]

The stuff about the Celts mixing in fully and accepting the Germanics...fits in nicely with their races=black or white issues....like what Lee Jasper does as well

Ah, so thats what makes them think they can stand in Wales and get away with it. Pricks.

[ernestolynch]

so what explanation would you give for the sudden disappearance of celtic culture from england (bar cumbria and cornwall) shortly after the germanic invasions?

Ethnic cleansing, and a mass emigration of British refugees (who were Christians for their sins) westwards to escape the Germanic 'heathens'

[ernestolynch]

Ah, so thats what makes them think they can stand in Wales and get away with it. Pricks.

Exactly, fynci!
:cool:

[oddjob]

The stuff about the Celts mixing in fully and accepting the Germanics...fits in nicely with their races=black or white issues....like what Lee Jasper does as well


yep

*bet is portugal*

edit: fuck, wrong mind

[ernestolynch]

super bock me up

[tom796]

Ethnic cleansing, and a mass emigration of British refugees (who were Christians for their sins) westwards to escape the Germanic 'heathens'

so why does the evidence of place names suggest that many celtic bubbles remained alongside the invaders? and why were the celtic christians so successful in reconverting the angles (before augustine & co)? the picture you paint is pure romance.

[Funky_monks]

But still, the Prydain are one of the many races that may call themselves Welsh, agreed? (Am I doing this to death now, if so, sorry :o )

[ernestolynch]

Some place names remained eg Pontefract, Thames (Tafwys), Dover (Dwfr), but not many. The last British place to hold out was Elmet (Elfed) in present day south Yorkshire.

However how much British carried through into the English language? Fuck all. Explain that, GCSE-boy. The picture you paint is Anglocentric Yookay Nationalism.

[tom796]

interesting article ern, thanks, though i'm a little suspicious of blood of the vikings-esque history! :) ps: the bit in the article about offa's dyke and ethnic cleansing is bollocks, as any cursory glance at the history of eighth century mercia will show. the interesting bit is, i think, the 'lost' period of the invasions themselves and the aftermath.

[oddjob]

Ethnic cleansing, and a mass emigration of British refugees (who were Christians for their sins) westwards to escape the Germanic 'heathens'


can you explain that in 100 words please

[ernestolynch]

But still, the Prydain are one of the many races that may call themselves Welsh, agreed? (Am I doing this to death now, if so, sorry :o )

Welsh=Prydeinig.

Welsh is a Saxon insult given to the British. It means 'foreign slaves/vassals'. (Weallas).

Why am I arguing with this Tom chap btw who until an hour ago thought that the West Saxons were Celts?
:rolleyes:

[tom796]

Some place names remained eg Pontefract, Thames (Tafwys), Dover (Dwfr), but not many. The last British place to hold out was Elmet (Elfed) in present day south Yorkshire.

Few major towns in England have Celtic place names, but plenty of smaller places do. I don't think Thames is Celtic. Or maybe it's romano-british. not sure...

However how much British carried through into the English language? Fuck all. Explain that, GCSE-boy. The picture you paint is Anglocentric Yookay Nationalism.

the tiny influence of the celtic language on old english suits my argument of the surprising absence of celtic culture in early anglo-saxon england! (and i aint one of your students ern, so enough of the silly remarks please)

[tom796]

Why am I arguing with this Tom chap btw who until an hour ago thought that the West Saxons were Celts?

erm... what the fuck?

[oddjob]

Some place names remained eg Pontefract, Thames (Tafwys), Dover (Dwfr), but not many. The last British place to hold out was Elmet (Elfed) in present day south Yorkshire.

:D :D :D :D :D

[ernestolynch]

Few major towns in England have Celtic place names, but plenty of smaller places do. I don't think Thames is Celtic. Or maybe it's )

Thames is from Tafwys can't you read???

Name all your heap big plenty small places then, cowboy...

[ernestolynch]

:D :D :D :D :D
http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/History/FeaturesBritain/BritishMap.htm

[Funky_monks]

Welsh=Prydeinig.

Welsh is a Saxon insult given to the British. It means 'foreign slaves/vassals'. (Weallas).

Why am I arguing with this Tom chap btw who until an hour ago thought that the West Saxons were Celts?
:rolleyes:

Ok, I just put Prydain to avoud confusion over the word "Briton" (It could be taken, by some people as meaning anyone who lives in the modern day area that some people call Britain). I suppose I meant: "The Prydain (i.e. those who are descended from aincient Britons) are one of many races that, today can call themselves Cymraeg, no?"

[tom796]

in response to idaho's comment about the celtic ethnicity of hampshire i say

if that's true, i'd be very surprised as hampshire was the heartland of wessex

i'm sorry i don't have the evidence to hand. i'll try and dredge up an article when i can.

[tom796]

Welsh is a Saxon insult given to the British. It means 'foreign slaves/vassals'. (Weallas).

don't know which dictionary you're referring to - weallas = foreigners. i.e. cornwall is a conflation (correct me if i'm wrong) of the celtic word for themselves and the germanic name for them.

[Funky_monks]

Some place names remained eg Pontefract, Thames (Tafwys), Dover (Dwfr), but not many. The last British place to hold out was Elmet (Elfed) in present day south Yorkshire.

In that case, are Llyndain, Caer (when it is used for Chester) and Briste Welsh translations of saxon words?

[oddjob]

differing boundaries ;)

'there is no such thing as a nation'

probably tony benn

edit: reading the handout

[Stanley Edwards]

Interesting map. Dyfed AKA Demetia - is that wher the term Dementia derives from?

Genuine question. Know it could be taken the wrong way.

[Macabre]

Although the classification of race through genetics is highly unfashionable for obvious reasons it does have a leg to stand on, dismissing it as racist doesn't negate the fact that it is there.

Groups of people that breed together, usually because of separation of geographical, tend to have characteristic genetic mutations that are passed down. But the racism behind it falls down because the differences are largely supperficial and the guidelines that the facists use to show that the Aryans are the master race actually show the Canadian Inuits to be the purest and most beutiful of man kind.

[ernestolynch]

In that case, are Llyndain, Caer (when it is used for Chester) and Briste Welsh translations of saxon words?

No because those names were in use a thousand years before the Saxons came over from Germany for a weekend and decided to out-stay their welcome.

(The British king Gwrtheyrn (Vortigern) actually invited the Germans over to help fight against the Vikings, but being Germans as they are, they decided they like Britain and stayed here...centuries of British v English (German) wars followed)

[Funky_monks]

No because those names were in use a thousand years before the Saxons came over from Germany for a weekend and decided to out-stay their welcome.

(The British king Gwrtheyrn (Vortigern) actually invited the Germans over to help fight against the Vikings, but being Germans as they are, they decided they like Britain and stayed here...centuries of British v English (German) wars followed)

So, is 'Chester' just a corruption of the word 'Caer' or is it Roman in origin? (I know this is slightly off topic).


Must read more of my "A History of Wales", I'm only up to the Romans leaving......

[oddjob]

Although the classification of race through genetics is highly unfashionable for obvious reasons it does have a leg to stand on, dismissing it as racist doesn't negate the fact that it is there.

Groups of people that breed together, usually because of separation of geographical, tend to have characteristic genetic mutations that are passed down.


and you want your kids iq to be systemised sp

done :cool:

[Clintons Cat]

Although the classification of race through genetics is highly unfashionable for obvious reasons it does have a leg to stand on, dismissing it as racist doesn't negate the fact that it is there.

Groups of people that breed together, usually because of separation of geographical, tend to have characteristic genetic mutations that are passed down. But the racism behind it falls down because the differences are largely supperficial and the guidelines that the facists use to show that the Aryans are the master race actually show the Canadian Inuits to be the purest and most beutiful of man kind.


Yeah, but the range of genetic mutations inherent within a specific race far exceed any pecieved diferences between the races themselves.

[ernestolynch]

Yeah, but the range of genetic mutations inherent within a specific race far exceed any pecieved diferences between the races themselves.

Please explain further, include what you perceive to be the races.

[Stanley Edwards]

Please explain further, include what you perceive to be the races.

Like Dementia perhaps? Those crazy welsh loony militants in the farthest SW corner?

They're all mad!!! :eek:

[Funky_monks]

Please explain further, include what you perceive to be the races.

Aren't they held at Newbury, Ascot, Goodwood, Aintree, etc? ;)

[ernestolynch]

Like Dementia perhaps? Those crazy welsh loony militants in the farthest SW corner?

They're all mad!!! :eek:

It's not known as Little England for nothing.

(BTW try a Latin dick-shunary)

[Clintons Cat]

sure i'm game,

The three major racial groups

Afro-Caucasian-Asian.

Usually catagorised as races due to melolin content of skin pigmentation,hair type ect.

[Clintons Cat]

which all goes to make the eugenic cobblers that follows DNA marking a bit redundent

[Loki]

It's thought that the Vikings established up to 25 settlements in Wales, there are certainly plenty of placenames like "Anglesea" in Wales that derive from Old Norse. But it seems the viking settlers adopted the customs of their hosts rapidly and integrated and so didn't leave many clues... apart from the genetic evidence.

[Funky_monks]

It's thought that the Vikings established up to 25 settlements in Wales, there are certainly plenty of placenames like "Anglesea" in Wales that derive from Old Norse.

Isn't Anglesey just the English name for Ynys Mon?

[oddjob]

which all goes to make the eugenic cobblers that follows DNA marking a bit redundent

eugenics :cool:

[ernestolynch]

which all goes to make the eugenic cobblers that follows DNA marking a bit redundent

If you could spell melanin I'd be more inclined to take you seriously on this subject, however ****************

[Corax]

Isn't Anglesey just the English name for Ynys Mon?

Ynes Mon = Isle of Man, I thought...?

[Idaho]

Ynes Mon = Isle of Man, I thought...?

No it's Anglesey - Black Island?

[Idaho]

If you could spell melanin I'd be more inclined to take you seriously on this subject, however ****************

I doubt you would Mr Lynch. Anything that detracts away from your Welsh master race fantasy is quickly dismissed. What I can't work out is how this squares with your communist credentials. Was Stalin a Georgian nationalist?

[Pingu]

So, is 'Chester' just a corruption of the word 'Caer' or is it Roman in origin? (I know this is slightly off topic).


Must read more of my "A History of Wales", I'm only up to the Romans leaving......

the roman name for chester was Deva


this is actually becomming quite interesting.

[Belushi]

I'm sure Im right in thinking that both 'Caer' and 'Chester' are corruptions of the Latin 'Caister'.

[Pingu]

may well be ( I dont know any latin) but the roman name for chester was Deva ( dunno what this means either but a quick google should turn something up)


"The ancient settlement started out as the important Roman legionary fortress of Deva, safe in its loop of the River Dee.

When the Romans left, three centuries later, the Saxons extended the walls down to the river to create a fortified town, or burh, against marauding Danes.

Following the Norman conquest of 1066, the first Earl of Chester built Chester Castle to dominate the Welsh border. By the Middle Ages, the city walls bristled with defensive towers and fortified gates. Until the estuary silted up, Chester was the largest trading port in northern England; and global trading brought affluence and influence to the city."

[Clintons Cat]

If you could spell melanin I'd be more inclined to take you seriously on this subject, however ****************

oh boo fucking hoo,spelt a word wrong

[Idaho]

Got this off a dodgy website! However it was legitimately printed in the Telegraph originally (oxymoronic as that sounds).

Refers to some research done by UCL.

Genetic survey reveals hidden Celts of England

JOHN ELLIOTT AND TOM ROBBINS

THE Celts of Scotland and Wales are not as unique as some of them like to think. New research has revealed that the majority of Britons living in the south of England share the same DNA as their Celtic counterparts.

The findings, based on the DNA analysis of more than 2,000 people, poses the strongest challenge yet to the conventional historical view that the ancient Britons were forced out of most of England by hordes of Anglo-Saxon invaders.

It suggests that far from being purged and forced to retreat into Wales, Cornwall and Scotland when the AngloSaxons invaded in the 5th century, many ancient Britons remained in England.

The study, conducted by geneticists at University College London, found that as many as three-quarters of the men tested in some parts of the south of England have the same Y-chromosome as the ancient Britons or Celts, rather than that of the Anglo-Saxons.

Overall, the scientists found that between 50% and 75% of those tested in parts of southern England were directly descended from Celts, implying that they had survived the Anglo-Saxon invasion. In Scotland the proportion of those with Celtic ancestry was found to be little different from the population of southern England.

"The evidence is quite strong that there is a substantial indigenous component remaining in England," said Professor David Goldstein, who led the study. "Genetics has opened up a powerful window on the past. We can now trace the movements of peoples and address questions that have proved difficult to answer through history and archeology alone."

The study, commissioned by BBC2 for its current Blood of the Vikings series, was designed to assess the impact of Norwegian and Danish Vikings, as well as Anglo-Saxons, on the British population.

Researchers took swabs of saliva from 2,000 people in 30 locations around Britain, and from 400 people in Norway, Denmark and Schleswig- Holstein, the area in northern Germany identified by the team as a homeland of the AngloSaxons. Those taking part had to have lived in the area for at least two generations.

Scientists then examined the Y-chromosome, which is passed unchanged down the male line of a family and is thus not altered by intermarriage.

The analysis showed that 60% of the men tested on Orkney were descended from Norwegian Vikings, as well as 30% of those in the Hebrides. While the Viking influence in these areas has been well known, it had been suggested that they were simply a ruling elite who did little interbreeding with the local population.

On the mainland, the survey found that 70% of those tested in York were from the continental European groups rather than the indigenous population, suggesting that the Anglo-Saxons made more of an impact on the Celts in northern England.

Only 10% of those tested in Wales were of Anglo-Saxon origin, confirming that it has retained an almost exclusively Celtic population.

In recent years the fate of the Celts in England has become hotly debated. Many historians have come to doubt the traditional story about the flight of the Celts from southern England, which was based largely on the account of Gildas, the 6th-century historian.

"There are various schools of thought ranging from near genocide (of the Celts) to almost total survival," said Patrick Sims-Williams, professor of Celtic studies at the University of Wales. "There could have been mass flight as well — it’s partly a matter of scholarly fashion, coming and going from generation to generation."

The genetic data will be eagerly received by scholars. Many of the place names in southern England have Celtic origins. Among them are Leatherhead, in Surrey, which meant "the grey ford".

"If you believe Gildas, the Anglo-Saxons would have been chasing the ancient Britons, catching up with one who wasn’t fast enough and saying, ‘Look here, before I cut off your head, just tell me the name of this place’," said Dr Margaret Gelling, a leading authority on place names.

[Rollem]

i always thought there was only one race..................

[TeeJay]

Separate and distinct "races" do not exist. Science shows that all human beings are descended from a common ancestor. There are many biological differences between people that are not taken into account by so-called "race" (for example, your blood type). The genetaic differences between people who are lumped into the same so-called "races" have actually been shown to be greater than the average genetic difference between their "group" and the other "groups" (eg so-called 'black' v. so-called 'white' v. so-called 'asian'). For example, the variation in blood types within specific "groups" is 94%, but the total variation between these "groups" is only 6%. Which kind of fucks all over the concept that there is actually anything scientifically or genetically meaningful about the so called separate "races".

The truth is that the general public, including people like Ernesto, have been conditioned to viewing human races as natural and separate divisions within the human species based on visible physical differences.

However science has now made it clear that human populations are not unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups. Evidence from the analysis of genetics (e.g., DNA) indicates that most physical variation, about 94%, lies within *so-called* "racial" groups. Conventional geographic "racial" groupings differ from one another only in about 6% of their genes. This means that there is greater variation within "racial" groups than between them. In neighboring populations there is much overlapping of genes and their phenotypic (physical) expressions. Throughout history whenever different groups have come into contact, they have interbred. The continued sharing of genetic materials has maintained all of humankind as a single species.

To quote the American Anthropological Association Statement on "Race":

"Physical variations in any given trait tend to occur gradually rather than abruptly over geographic areas. And because physical traits are inherited independently of one another, knowing the range of one trait does not predict the presence of others. For example, skin color varies largely from light in the temperate areas in the north to dark in the tropical areas in the south; its intensity is not related to nose shape or hair texture. Dark skin may be associated with frizzy or kinky hair or curly or wavy or straight hair, all of which are found among different indigenous peoples in tropical regions. These facts render any attempt to establish lines of division among biological populations both arbitrary and subjective.

Historical research has shown that the idea of "race" has always carried more meanings than mere physical differences; indeed, physical variations in the human species have no meaning except the social ones that humans put on them...

"Race" ... evolved as a worldview, a body of prejudgments that distorts our ideas about human differences and group behavior. Racial beliefs constitute myths about the diversity in the human species and about the abilities and behavior of people homogenized into "racial" categories. The myths fused behavior and physical features together in the public mind, impeding our comprehension of both biological variations and cultural behavior, implying that both are genetically determined. Racial myths bear no relationship to the reality of human capabilities or behavior. Scientists today find that reliance on such folk beliefs about human differences in research has led to countless errors.

At the end of the 20th century, we now understand that human cultural behavior is learned, conditioned into infants beginning at birth, and always subject to modification. No human is born with a built-in culture or language. Our temperaments, dispositions, and personalities, regardless of genetic propensities, are developed within sets of meanings and values that we call "culture." Studies of infant and early childhood learning and behavior attest to the reality of our cultures in forming who we are." [ends]

I didn't start this thread because I believe in the concept of "race" - I started it because I wanted to see how many people on urban75 still think in terms of "race". I have been surprised as to how many people here do still believe in the false concept of separate races, even to the extent of thinking of people with Welsh and English ancestry as separate "races" - although obviously it is ambigious as to what people actually mean by the term "race".

[TeeJay]

i always thought there was only one race..................I agree. The human race.

[Idaho]

From the Golstein research on the bbc Blood of the Vikings (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/bloodofthevikings/genetics_results_02.shtml) site:

The results were interesting. England (and most of mainland Scotland) were a mixture of Angles, Saxons, Danish Vikings and Ancient Britons. The highest percentage of DNA signatures from the invading groups (Angles, Saxons and Danish Vikings) was found in the North and East of England. Interestingly the place with the highest 'invader input' was York, a well-known Viking settlement site.

There was one result in the North and East of England which did not fit this pattern. In Penrith a significant proportion of the men tested had Norwegian DNA signatures on their Y chromosomes. It seems likely that the Norwegian Vikings who travelled along the sea road from Shetland down to the Isle of Man may well have stopped off in Cumbria. It may also have been a safe haven for Vikings expelled from Dublin at the beginning of the 10th century. This finding fits in remarkably well with archaeological finds of Viking burials, Norse-style place-names and stone sculpture. The input of the Angles and Saxons, who arrived in England in the 5th century AD, were represented by DNA samples from Schleswig-Holstein and Northern Saxony respectively.

The Vikings are also though to have settled in the north of the Wirral, but not to have reached as far as the south of this region. The evidence comes from place-names, archaeological finds on the coast and sculpture - although there isn't as much as in Cumbria. Samples were collected in the Wirral by a local man, Prof Stephen Harding from Nottingham University, and two of his students. However, the analysis by Golstein's lab was unable to see a significant difference between the north and south of this region, in terms of the Norwegian DNA. It appeared very similar to the rest of England, but very different from nearby North Wales, which is mostly Ancient Briton (Celtic).

South and West England

Testing sites:
Dorchester (Dorset), Midhurst (West Sussex), Faversham (Kent), Penzance (Cornwall)

Difficulties arose early on in the Blood of the Vikings survey as the geneticists tried to establish differences between DNA taken in Denmark (representative of Danish Vikings), Schleswig-Holstein and Northern Saxony (representative of the invading Angles and Saxons respectively, groups who invaded England in the 5th century AD). The two regions of Europe these settlers came from are very close, so it is not surprising their DNA is so similar. Because of this set-back the team at UCL was forced to take a different approach. By referring to both the Danish and Saxon DNA as 'invaders' a comparison could then be made against how much Ancient Briton (or Celtic) DNA was found.

Like in the North and East of England, a mixture of Angles, Saxons, Danish Vikings, and Ancient Britons were found in the South and West of England. But the percentage of DNA from the 'invaders' (Angles, Saxons and Danish Vikings) decreased as the test sites moved towards the south coast and Cornwall (the most Ancient Briton/Celtic part of England). It seems this part of the country has more genetic input from the Ancient Britons than the North and East of England. Curiously, mainland Scotland was not appreciably more Ancient Briton (Celtic) than southern England.

Of course Goldstein and UCL have long been in league with Stormfront, so take their findings with a pinch of salt.

[Idaho]

i always thought there was only one race..................

Famous bit of graffitti in Brighton - the original was written by some NF types and the add ons came later:

One RaceThe Rat Race
One NationUrination

I still at times say that I'm going for a 'one nation'.

[goldenecitrone]

The truth is that the general public, including people like Ernesto, have been conditioned to viewing human races as natural and separate divisions within the human species based on visible physical differences.

However science has now made it clear that human populations are not unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups.

Spot on, though you can see why people with a political agenda are going to find this a very troubling idea.

[ernestolynch]

Separate and distinct "races" do not exist. Science -
:( zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

- although obviously it is ambigious as to what people actually mean by the term "race".


Whu-wha-whuzzgoin on? :confused:

*Unsubscribes from thread*

[TeeJay]

What a fool.

[ernestolynch]

TeeJay
now has an ignore list :
What a fool.

[TeeJay]

You haven't left the thread? Well how about answering some of the points I have made. If you are having trouble with some of the details I will gladly try and find you some easy-to-understand links which explain about the science involved. However, since "race" is a socially constructed concept, maybe you don't think it is simply all about genetics anyway? (btw ernie I have taken you off my list because unlike many of the other muppets you actually make a lot of posts that are, for various reasons, worth reading)

[ernestolynch]

Because you're an arse and you'll be crying by 4pm...

[ernestolynch]

(btw ernie I have taken you off my list because unlike many of the other muppets you actually make a lot of posts that are, for various reasons, worth reading)

Please put me back on your list.... :(

[TeeJay]

Because you're an arse and you'll be crying by 4pm...Why will I be crying by 4pm. FWIW you have never made me cry ever Ernie, and you are deluding yourself if you think that I have taken you seriously enough for anything you say to upset me that much for a long time now. I kind of got over that after you started taking the piss out of my mental health and started accusing me of being a neo-nazi or whatever. I soon realised that you are a buffoon. However, I would still like to know what you understand by the term "race" and I would like to see what you have to say about the fact that 75% or so of people in Southern England have "Celtic ancestry" in terms of genetics. I can imagine that kind of fucks with your head a bit doesn't it, if you rerally do believe that being welsh or celtic or whatever is about 'genes' or 'blood'? If on the other hand it is really about culture, then it shouldn't be a massive problem for you. I would have thought that if you really do value welsh culture and its differences to english culture, you would be far better off admitting that "race" had nothing to do with it?

[Idaho]

I really wouldn't worry about it Teejay. The best thing to do with Ernesto is to enjoy the sport of winding him up and savaging his flimsy grasp on logic, science, history, social skills, gardening, etc.

[ernestolynch]

I really wouldn't worry about it Teejay. The best thing to do with Ernesto is to enjoy the sport of winding him up and savaging his flimsy grasp on logic, science, history, social skills, gardening, etc.

Shut it Tory boy. Bigots like you are on borrowed time.

[TeeJay]

I really wouldn't worry about it Teejay. The best thing to do with Ernesto is to enjoy the sport of winding him up and savaging his flimsy grasp on logic, science, history, social skills, gardening, etc.I have done that in the past and sometimes that all you can do, since he refuses to be serious or engage with any points at all. However the reason I have left it so late to actually contribute to this thread was so that he, and others, could set out their racial theories in a bit more detail, rather than just turn it into a silly slagging match immediately and lose any meaning ful or interesting debate under a deluge of insults, counter-insults and derailments.

It is worth looking at how many people have actually voted that they think the Welsh are a 'separate "race"', and how many people have supported this concept on this thread. Rather than shouting at each other or trying to accuse each other of being neo-nazis etc, isn't it worth trying to understand why people actually believe these things, and more specifically *what* they do actually believe? I don't think that any BNP-twats have crawled into this thread yet, there really is the basis of an interesting debate here. Ernie baiting will destroy any decent debate.

[Idaho]

Shut it Tory boy. Bigots like you are on borrowed time.

Awww Ernest - now you've hurt my feewings.

Borrowed from whom? Tory Boy eh? I'll have you know I switched to UKIP ;)

[TeeJay]

Awww Ernest - now you've hurt my feewings.

Borrowed from whom? Tory Boy eh? I'll have you know I switched to UKIP ;)Will you two shut up with the school playground taunting and try and actually establish what you disagree about?

I don't believe there are such things as separate "races", but apparently most people in the UK think there are (although whether most people think the Welsh "qualify" as a separate "race" is more doubtful). The vast majority of these people are not what would be typically called "racist" - in that they think there are separate races but would probably say that everyone is equal and no race is better than any other. There are two issues:

1. Are there separate races?
2. Is everyone equal?

I take it that both of you, being fairly left-wing, agree that (2) everyone is equal. The issue we are discussing is (1).

[butchersapron]

Do you not believe that there are seprate races teejay?

[Idaho]

Ernie baiting will destroy any decent debate.

Ernest himself routinely destorys any decent debate. He's very good at it. If your challenges start to hit home he either bails out or starts the insult/threat combo as in:

Shut it Tory boy. Bigots like you are on borrowed time.

It's a good tactic on his part. It hints at a threat without being enough to call him out on. And it suggests that I am a supporter of the Conservative Party - in order to try and rally support against me. I only have a few options from here and most of them are not great.


Go running to the mods saying Ernest is a meany - bad show and he hasn't done enough
Vehemently deny alliegence to the Tory Party! Hehehe - and get bogged down in that nonsense? Naah...
Try and pull the debate back on track with evidence - Already done it. In fact the info I gave comes from the exact same bit of research that he himself cited in the BBC article! Fat lot of good it did.
Bait him and throw his same tactics back at him - yeah that's more like it.


So Ernesto - was Stalin a Georgian nationalist?

[reallyoldhippy]

Because you're an arse and you'll be crying by 4pm...If you heard one of the kids at school say this to another, would you just let it go? Have you got a school bullying policy? :eek:

[TeeJay]

Do you not believe that there are seprate races teejay?No. I don't believe separate and distinct "races" exist at all. I have already made that completely clear in my posts on this thread, including my last one:...I don't believe there are such things as separate "races"...How about you butchersapron?

[flimsier]

Teejay has me on ignore but not butchers!?

:eek: :(

[TeeJay]

Idaho and reallyoldhippy - if Ernie tries to derail the thread, don't let him or give into his tactics by reacting to them, otherwise you are giving him exactly what he wants. Just keep it on topic and keep exposing the flaws in his racial theories. If he tries to change the subject, don't go along with it. If he resorts to personal abuse or accusations, don't go along with it. If he breaches the faqs then report the post. But don't let him change the subject away from things he doesn't want to see debated.

[reallyoldhippy]

Do you not believe that there are seprate races teejay?Do you? How many are there? How are they defined? Are the welsh a "race"? :rolleyes:

[flimsier]

If he breaches the faqs then report the post.

Maybe I should have done this with another poster.

[reallyoldhippy]

If he breaches the faqs then report the post.No way. :)

[TeeJay]

Maybe I should have done this with another poster.You said you didn't even want an apology.

[butchersapron]

No. I don't believe separate and distinct "races" exist at all. I have already made that completely clear in my posts on this thread, including my last one:How about you butchersapron?
No i don't believe that you believe in races either.

And i was referring more to the fact that you spent about a month letting everyone know that you didn't believe in races on all manner of threads now matter how unconnected to your hobby horse, quite recently, in the same manner as your recent bout of green-spamming.

And no, of course i don't believe in gentic races.

[butchersapron]

...and you've not quite managed to get behind what erns 'racial theories' are designed to do have you?

[ernestolynch]

What does the Walsall Metropolitan Borough Council have to say on it I wonder?

[Idaho]

...and you've not quite managed to get behind what erns 'racial theories' are designed to do have you?

To annoy people? To inspire the second coming? To bring about the dawn of a new age of man? :confused:

[Idaho]

What does the Walsall Metropolitan Borough Council have to say on it I wonder?

Me too. Fhtang Ole Biscuit Barrel.

[flimsier]

You said you didn't even want an apology.

What happened to your ignore list? Did it even exist?

[Hocus Eye.]

Idaho

You said "
Try and pull the debate back on track with evidence - Already done it. In fact the info I gave comes from the exact same bit of research that he himself cited in the BBC article! Fat lot of good it did."

Dont forget that there may be people reading the thread who do not get their hands dirty by posting.

I spotted that the UCL research you quoted was the same source as Ernestos. I think it proved the conclusive argument and demolished the idea of races.

Ernesto did not go to the actual source but used the BBC report which had much less detail. Nowhere in the article was the word 'race' used except in the title which referred to the English and Welsh being "races apart". It was just a catchy headline.

Moreover if you read only the BBC website version you might come to conclusions in favour of Ernesto whereas if you went to the source the opposite was the conclusion.

I suspect that Ern found the article by googling on the word "races" and he did not check the source or if he did was selective just as the writer of the origninal article was. The BBC is no different to other media sources they simplify a story to make it eye catching. It is a bit tough on the researchers.

I do not think that the concept of 'race' is very useful. The genetic differences between different human groups are not important, just minor adaptations to different environments fed into heredity. As populations move around more these are breaking up and new adaptations occur.

So I conclude by saying to Idaho that your post did make a difference and effectively won the debate.

Hocus Eye

[ernestolynch]

To annoy people? To inspire the second coming? To bring about the dawn of a new age of man? :confused:

You're getting tedious now, you racist idiot. If I was a lunatic I'd have an ignore list and proclaim that you were on it.

[Idaho]

No i don't believe that you believe in races either.

And i was referring more to the fact that you spent about a month letting everyone know that you didn't believe in races...

The science behind the absence of any real notion of race is one of the most powerful tools to defeat racism. Makes me wonder why you are so luke warm on the issue.

[ernestolynch]

I can tell the racial origins, going back to the grandparents, of posters by analysing their posting-styles.

[TeeJay]

What happened to your ignore list? Did it even exist?I think the last few posts have just proved to me the wisdom of having you and butchers on ignore. I did just take it off today on this thread because I was willing to believe that you might actually be trying to make some kind of contribution to the topic of the thread. However, I can see now that you just want to continue to behave like total arseholes.

*puts the two arseholes back on ignore*

[butchersapron]

The science behind the absence of any real notion of race is one of the most powerful tools to defeat racism. Makes me wonder why you are so luke warm on the issue.
Becaue, i'm quite clearly one of them rascists aren't i - despite the bit of my post that you lopped off that said that i don't believe in the idea of genetic races either.

[Idaho]

You're getting tedious now, you racist idiot. If I was a lunatic I'd have an ignore list and proclaim that you were on it.

Keep them coming Ernest. Surely you haven't been on the ales already? Tsk tsk.

[Idaho]

Becaue, i'm quite clearly one of them rascists aren't i - despite the bit of my post that you lopped off that said that i don't believe in the idea of genetic races either.

Sozzer.. the Ernest-style is rubbing off on me. I withdraw the remark.

[butchersapron]

I think the last few posts have just proved to me the wisdom of having you and butchers on ignore. I did just take it off today on this thread because I was willing to believe that you might actually be trying to make some kind of contribution to the topic of the thread. However, I can see now that you just want to continue to behave like total arseholes.

*puts the two arseholes back on ignore*
How have i behaved like an arshole bluey - i asked you a question, you replied and asked me one in return which i immediately replied to. What a rotter i am.

*takes himself off teejays ignore list*

[TeeJay]

You're getting tedious now, you racist idiot.Ernesto, how do you define racism? You seem to have very weird ideas about race, so I am intrigued what you think racism is.

[ernestolynch]

*Can't see someone's posts due to ignore list*
*Can still identify their racial origins*

[Idaho]

*Can't see someone's posts due to ignore list*
*Can still identify their racial origins*

(hands over ears) I'M NOT LISTENING... LA-DE-DAR-DEE-DOO-DAY :D

[TeeJay]

*Can't see someone's posts due to ignore list*
*Can still identify their racial origins*So you think you can "see" someone's "racial origins" by the way they post on urban75? You have claimed this before, although last time when questioned on it further you changed your mind and said you were "just joking".

[ernestolynch]

Yeah I'm analysing you right now, TJ!

[Idaho]

Yeah I'm analysing you right now, TJ!

Look out TJ - he's drunk and horny :eek:

[ernestolynch]

Look out TJ - he's drunk and horny :eek:
LOL Teejay and I'd a Hoe - the meanest, wittiest, funniest double act since Syd Little and Eddie Large.

http://www.hertford.net/images/little_large_small.jpg

[Idaho]

LOL Teejay and I'd a Hoe - the meanest, wittiest, funniest double act since Syd Little and Eddie Large.

http://www.hertford.net/images/little_large_small.jpg

Now now Ernest - flattery will get you everywhere.

[TeeJay]

Gogs are racially purer than the hwntwrs. On Ynys Mon you will find the purest Cymric race. On Lleyn the blood was mixed with Irish from Leinster (hence the name). Further East towards the Clwydian Range you will encounter a mixture of Pure Cymry and Brythonic refugees from Elmet and other Celtic nations over-run by the Hunnish invaders.

In the midlands - Powys - you will find a hybrid of Cymry and some Mercian stock, from when Welsh raiders would kidnap the less-ugly women of Saxon race and take them back to breed.

Pembrokeshire is known as Little England although French and Flemish were settled there by the Norman overlords, then English people were settled and the local Welsh kicked off the land.

In the South Wales industrial heartlands you will find a mongrelised Welshman - a mixture of immigrants during the industrial age from Italy, Spain, Ireland, Scotland and England.

Monmouthshire (Gwent) are practically English.

Kernow (Cernyw) was known as 'South Wales' until recently and the Cornish race is the same as the Cymric, as are the Bretons in Breizh, who fled overseas to escape the Germanic hordes.Any more racial theories to share with us Ernie?

[TeeJay]

How comes you're so sure then that the Welsh aren't a race, but you're not about the Japs? What about the Basques then? Or the Hottentots?Erneto - who are the Hottentots?

[TeeJay]

The stuff about the Celts mixing in fully and accepting the Germanics...fits in nicely with their races=black or white issues....like what Lee Jasper does as wellCan you explain how the historical theory that celts, angles, saxons, jutes and norse all intermarried fits in with a theory of "separate races"?

[TeeJay]

Because you're an arse and you'll be crying by 4pm...It's 5pm and I'm still smiling ernie boy. You are obviously losing your touch. :p

[butchersapron]

It's 5pm and I'm still smiling ernie boy. You are obviously losing your touch. :p
You're crying inside feverish spam-boy and potential cheka agent - and you know it.

[TeeJay]

And as for you butchertwat - whatever it is you are dribbling on about now, I don't care since you have deservedly gone straight back on the ignore list with your pathetic fucktard mates. If you want to talk to me then you'll have to wait for a few days and then I'll see if you have grown a brain. I kind of doubt it tho' although I am always willing to see if you have finally grown up, and will be checking up on your periodically. However, you few posts on this thread that I read were more than enough dribbly-shit for this week thank you very much. Now be a good chap and fuck off back under your stone. ;)

[butchersapron]

And as for you butchertwat - whatever it is you are dribbling on about now, I don't care since you have deservedly gone straight back on the ignore list with your pathetic fucktard mates. If you want to talk to me then you'll have to wait for a few days and then I'll see if you have grown a brain. I kind of doubt it tho' although I am always willing to see if you have finally grown up, and will be checking up on your periodically. However, you few posts on this thread that I read were more than enough dribbly-shit for this week thank you very much. Now be a good chap and fuck off back under your stone. ;)
Yes!

What on earth is the point of ignoring someone if you then write a longer, more boring reply to the ignored post than that which you would have done if you'd read the post (which you have) - actually thinking about it, the content of the post would remain the same - crappy amateur splenetics. This ego driven logorheaa is really not healthy you know.

[flimsier]

I think the last few posts have just proved to me the wisdom of having you and butchers on ignore. I did just take it off today on this thread because I was willing to believe that you might actually be trying to make some kind of contribution to the topic of the thread. However, I can see now that you just want to continue to behave like total arseholes.

*puts the two arseholes back on ignore*

Errm, before today I hadn't posted on the thread you dick.

Oh, I forgot the celebration! :D

[flimsier]

And as for you butchertwat - whatever it is you are dribbling on about now, I don't care since you have deservedly gone straight back on the ignore list with your pathetic fucktard mates. If you want to talk to me then you'll have to wait for a few days and then I'll see if you have grown a brain. I kind of doubt it tho' although I am always willing to see if you have finally grown up, and will be checking up on your periodically. However, you few posts on this thread that I read were more than enough dribbly-shit for this week thank you very much. Now be a good chap and fuck off back under your stone. ;)

What the fuck? This was a reply to a post you're claiming to ignore? Only a nutter would believe you've got either of us on ignore!

Can I have a reply like that please!

[TeeJay]

http://www.thedailyworld.com/images/photos/yawn.jpg

[flimsier]

That your reply to not seeing my message? Yeah right!

[TeeJay]

And as for you flimsitwat - whatever it is you are dribbling on about now, I don't care since you have deservedly gone straight back on the ignore list with your pathetic fucktard mates. If you want to talk to me then you'll have to wait for a few days and then I'll see if you have grown a brain. I kind of doubt it tho' although I am always willing to see if you have finally grown up, and will be checking up on your periodically. However, you few posts on this thread that I read were more than enough dribbly-shit for this week thank you very much. Now be a good chap and fuck off back under your stone. ;)

[TinyCrendon]

.

[reallyoldhippy]

Becaue, i'm quite clearly one of them rascists aren't i - despite the bit of my post that you lopped off that said that i don't believe in the idea of genetic races either.Do you think that racists need to believe in an idea of genetic race? Do you think that racists hate the Irish, Gypsies (and Welsh) because of some idea of genetic purity? Do you think that many racists have such a rationality behind their racism? Or is it the "difference" that is abhorred rather than the "genetic difference"?

[TeeJay]

Is this serious?
Are the Welsh/Japanese/Catalans/Scots/Basques/Jewish people/A.N. Other a `race`? No of course not. Is that a serious question?I agree with you that the answer is "no". However, at the moment 25% of people have voted "yes", and I don't think we have had any ST**MF***T trolls voting either - judging from the fact that several long-term and left-wing posters have actually said on the thread itself they voted 'yes'.

You will see fom my posts in this thread that I definitely don't believe in the idea of so-called separate and distinct "races" at all.

[Dr. Christmas]

Interesting point, hippy: for the more sinister 'intellectual' racists subjects such as phrenology and quack science such as 'racial hygiene' a la nazi germany give a veneer of 'academic credibility' to their prejudice.

The majority rationale I suspect is fear/hatred of the 'other', irrationally expressed..

[TeeJay]

Do you think that racists need to believe in an idea of genetic race? Do you think that racists hate the Irish, Gypsies (and Welsh) because of some idea of genetic purity? Do you think that many racists have such a rationality behind their racism? Or is it the "difference" that is abhorred rather than the "genetic difference"?Surely people can hate "the other" on the basis of:

* so-called "race" (eg appearance, skin, eye, hair colour etc)
* nationality/citizenship
* ethnicity (eg culture, language, religion, regional accent)
* culture/sub-culture/lifestyle choice
* random things that they decide to pick on - including gender, sexuality, disabilities for example.

[butchersapron]

Do you think that racists need to believe in an idea of genetic race? Do you think that racists hate the Irish, Gypsies (and Welsh) because of some idea of genetic purity? Do you think that many racists have such a rationality behind their racism? Or is it the "difference" that is abhorred rather than the "genetic difference"?
No i don't - that was a direct reply to idahos now taken back attempt to place me in the racists camp - i argued nothing beyond the idea that genetic race doesn't exist. So ask someone else please.

[Funky_monks]

So, TeeJay, given that 'race' does not exist in your mind, does this therefore mean that racism cannot exist?

IMO, quite an interesting discussion about race and nationality was starting to emerge. Race and racism being quite an important issue, no?

The discussion may perhaps have shed some light on how people sought to define race, which, yes, is a purley human concept based, until recently on phenotype. This was, of course until that you saw that the thread which you had started with clear intention to troll (probably to use as ammo against certain posters when they cry 'racist' in the face of xenophobic commments made about the Welsh). You then felt the need to destroy it with a massive cut and paste plagurism session which neither effectivley utilised nor attempted to add to any of the science in your sources, and then to resort to petty bickering, as seems to be the case of late.

Actually got anything useful to add (which actually comes from you as oppose to plagurising off someone else)?

<edited to add: and which dosent involve you posting stupid pictures of livestock?>

[Dr. Christmas]

Re: Chester: there is a welsh idiom, cael Cwn Ci Caer , used to indicate having to get up very early. It literally means 'before the dogs of Chester'. This was because Chester was onew of those places where welshmen could be killed legally during daylight. hence A Welshman in Chester had to get up and leave before dawn to avoid the possible consequences.

mae rhaid i fi codi cael cwn ci Caer 'fory- I must get up very early tomorrow

[TeeJay]

So, TeeJay, given that 'race' does not exist in your mind, does this therefore mean that racism cannot exist?So-called separate "races" don't exist, but people can invent labels for themselves and other people based on physical appearances etc and claim that they therefore belong to a certain "race". When they then discrimate based on these false labels then that is racism.Actually got anything useful to add (which actually comes from you as oppose to plagurising off someone else)?Yes: Fuck off, twat! And don't bother replying to that because guess what I am doing now...

*adds yet another dribbling arsehole to ignore list*

[butchersapron]

I've seen someone else say that - be original at least bluey.

*bangs on door of plagiarists smelly and unclean flat*

[ernestolynch]

I reckon I've got Teejay's racial origins pegged now. These last posts have been the final pieces in his eugenic jigsaw.

More later. ;)

[flimsier]

And as for you flimsitwat - whatever it is you are dribbling on about now, I don't care since you have deservedly gone straight back on the ignore list with your pathetic fucktard mates. If you want to talk to me then you'll have to wait for a few days and then I'll see if you have grown a brain. I kind of doubt it tho' although I am always willing to see if you have finally grown up, and will be checking up on your periodically. However, you few posts on this thread that I read were more than enough dribbly-shit for this week thank you very much. Now be a good chap and fuck off back under your stone. ;)

What was it you were saying about reporting posts?

Thing is, I wouldn't, you are too much entertainment.

I think he's flipped again!

[ernestolynch]

Definitely ran out of tablets. :( Poor Teejay.

[flimsier]

So-called separate "races" don't exist, but people can invent labels for themselves and other people based on physical appearances etc and claim that they therefore belong to a certain "race". When they then discrimate based on these false labels then that is racism.Yes: Fuck off, twat! And don't bother replying to that because guess what I am doing now...

*adds yet another dribbling arsehole to ignore list*

Do you think he thinks that pretending he's added to his ignore list upsets people?

Its funny how he pretends to ignore everyone who disagrees with him.

:rolleyes:

[ernestolynch]

He is fucking great though isn't he!

[NoEgo]

I'm glad that I'm not the only person on U75 who is perceived to ask silly questions....

[flimsier]

He is fucking great though isn't he!

I think we should start a Teejay fan club! :)

It'd be mental!

[ernestolynch]

I think we should start a Teejay fan club! :)

It'd be mental!

Fucking loony idea!!!

[flimsier]

Fucking loony idea!!!

OK, I was acting as a bit of a nutter!

[Funky_monks]

Question:

Have you actually got anything useful to add, which desn't involve you plagurising someone else?

Answer:

Yes: Fuck off, twat! And don't bother replying to that because guess what I am doing now...

*adds yet another dribbling arsehole to ignore list*


So, thats actually a 'no' then?

[guinnessdrinker]

Is this serious?
Are the Welsh/Japanese/Catalans/Scots/Basques/Jewish people/A.N. Other a `race`? No of course not. Is that a serious question?

Why not read some stuff about `race`, start with New Scientist. There the general thought is that (after mapping the human genome) that race doesnt really exist. For example 3 out of 10 American black men are genetically `caucasian`. Homo sapiens (and indeed it seems Neanderthals with whom it seems increasingly likely that Homo Sapiens interbred with) have moved about the planet back and forth for up to 1m years (depending on your definition of Homo Sapiens) and at least 250,000. Thats a lot of time to move about, even by foot.

The generally held idea (before the race doesnt exist one) was that there were...and you will have to check this as its off top of head...seven `races` around the world...

For example, are not Catalans and Basques also `Celtic`? And Bretons too? They were peoples who moved from what is now the Balkans across southern Europe, then along the coasts and across the seas? Hitting south west England and Ireland...(dont quote me on that one I'll have to go and read it up again its from memory).

what do you mean by some black men being "genetically caucasian"? are they not "genetically african" as well? do you mean that they happen to have european blood in them?

what's this nonsense about these seven races around the world? do you mean general human phenotypes? race is not a biological concept.

and the catalans and basques are definitely not celtic, mate. try galicia, perhaps. and the catalans (the name came from the gothic invaders, but the population is of mediterranean origin) and the basques never went to ireland and england. indeed the basques are assumed to have stayed in their mountains for thousands of years and their language is unique in the world, never mind not being indo-european.

do read up.

[flimsier]

So, thats actually a 'no' then?

Why use one word when you can cutnpaste five hundred?

[Idaho]

and the basques never went to ireland and england. indeed the basques are assumed to have stayed in their mountains for thousands of years and their language is unique in the world, never mind not being indo-european.

The basques are a fascinating exception to just about everything to do with human migration and development out of africa. And quite so - they predate the 'celts' by tens of thousands of years.

[Belushi]

Basques and Celts (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1256894.stm)

[guinnessdrinker]

Basques and Celts (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1256894.stm)

interesting link, but what it says, really, is that when the celts invaded Britain, they took over existing populations posibly genetically related to the basques and bred with them. the celts moved to western europe 2500 to 3000 years ago, the basques are said to be so separate from other european people that it may have been 40000 years ago that genetic differences started to occur. sounds to me that it is going back to the time when the first Cro Magnons arrived and beat the shit out of the Neanderthals. there is a theory out there, actually, that a few neanderthals managed to breed with the sapiens. ernie is the nearest proof we have of that theory.

[Idaho]

"But we also noticed that there's something quite striking about the Celtic populations, and that is that there's not a lot of genetic variation on the Y-chromosome," he said.

Arf arf...

All the evidence given throughout this thread has come form the exact same bit of research. It will be interesting in a few years time when there are more studies out there to compare with.

[TeeJay]

If people were *really* serious about this subject rather than being far more interested in tribalistic/nationalistic flag-waving then wouldn't they be interested in studies on populations all over the world? If you divided the global population up into "Welsh-sized" groups (c.3 million iirc) you'd have over 2000 of them.

I am reminded slightly of the Japanese (Shinto) creation myth with the Ni-Hon-Jin (lit. True/original-Sun-People) being created when Ameratsu - the sun goddess - dipped her spear into the ocean and formed Japan. This story says that they are the 'original humans'. Everyone else is a "Gai-Jin" (outside-person). Many cultures have their own equivalent foundation or creation myth that places them at the centre of the universe or proposes some divinely-inspired or prestigous origins for their 'people/nation'.

You don't get many which say "we are all just a mish-mash of intermarriage, migration and borrowed culture, and really there isn't anything special or unique about us at all". It seems that even some scientists are still pandering to national boundaries, asking questions that bound by preconcieved identities and using the language of so-called "race" (or this might just be the BBC journalist?). I think you will see some far more serious research happening as the human genome project starts to be used for medical applications and is rolled out internationally. There will be no demand for romanticised and pre-determined boxes based on historical and national/cultural myths as health systems and reseachers in each country will simply want to know the genetic profile of their target population, for medical purposes. They won't be trying to prove or disprove some bogus or politically-charged rewriting of the history books or be having tenuous arguments over national/cultural identity being linked to genetics.

[ernestolynch]

Are you a Nipponese? (Nip for short)

[RubberBuccaneer]

If we're not a seperate race how come we look like this?
http://bbc.co.uk/history/forkids/images/celts.gif

[TeeJay]

Too many drugs?

[ernestolynch]

I believe that the Celts are a seperate race from all the others. Scientists have proven that the IQ of Celts is on average 20% higher than other races. This can even be passed on to half-Celts and quatro-Celts.

The purest of Celts would be located in the western-most parts of Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Cornwall, Breizh and Galicia.

It is reported that the Celtic Race is as close to perfection as is possible.

[chieftain]

I believe that the Celts are a seperate race from all the others. It is reported that the Celtic Race is as close to perfection as is possible.

I bet you're a ginger arent you ernestolynch?

[ernestolynch]

http://www.omelete.com.br/imagens/cinema/news/atores/keira_knighteley.jpg
Knightley is half-Celt, as you can see in her face.

[butchersapron]

The ugly half - the half in shadow?

[ernestolynch]

http://www.autogrammjaeger.com/macdonald.jpg
A pure Celt this time, notice the unique features...

[butchersapron]

That dippy studen,t vaguely staring into space and thinking deep tho