Welsh Addresses

[Dubversion]

favour needed

doing some work for the Royal Mail regarding dual addresses in Wales - ie where there's an english and welsh address for a property/street.

for the most part, are these well known/clearly displayed, or is it likely that an evil English absenteee landlord bastard wouldn't realise that their address was an anglicised version (because it had one less L in the name or something?)

any advice appreciated, and it is actually for a good cause (ie making sure that the Royal Mail deal properly with welsh language mail).

cheers

[LilMissHissyFit]

Nope.
The way that street names in Wales work is that your street is whatevers on the road sign. Some are english street names ( mainly older ones) but many newer streets are all welsh names ( confused yet?? you will be!)
So Live in Elm Grove and its just written Elm grove. The street next door is Sir stafford close( a bit of a mixture of english and welsh) thats just that... theres a Heol Cae Bach round the corner,(all welsh) again no translation.

The Welsh speakers can correct me if I'm wrong but we just use whatever the street is called rather than translating one way or the other.

[feyr]

most residential addresses only have one name, as LilMissHissyFit said. some non-residential addresses are written in both, i.e the university in swansea use both Singleton Park, Swansea, and Parc Singleton, Abertawe. when there are dual addreses, its normally the anglicised version that is used more often. if its a welsh sounding name, but followed by street or close etc, then its more likely to be an anglicised spelling. if its in welsh, its normally ystryd or Heol .

[past caring]

Dub - family is Welsh and still live there.

Can confirm what others have said - the name of your street is the name of your street. For instance, I've got a couple of aunts live in a Heol Brynteg - there's no anglicised spelling or English alternative. That's the name - end of.

(of course, you may find English speakers/those unfamiliar with the language adding an extra L or spelling the name phonetically - but they're plain wrong)

[Isambard]

But wouldn't the (very accurate in the UK) postocodes identify the street anyway? My family live in fairly anglo South Glamorgan (De Morgannwg) anyway! ;)

<Hides from wrath :mad: of Ern> :eek:

[stdPikachu]

Well, not sure what it's like in other parts of Wales, but where I come from...

Streets with Welsh names remain Welsh names - e.g. Pen y Bryn remains Pen y Bryn

Streets with English names are converted into bi-lingual Welglish names - e.g. Regent Street becomes Regent Street and Strydd Regenth (or something)

How can you tell the difference? Well, you can't. But if an English address is supplied, chances are the street was or is an English name.

[Funky_monks]

Mine has the Welsh Name first and the English under it on the street sign (as is the policy in Mid/North Welsh street and road signs). AFAIK, either can be used. I'm sure, however that post to Rhes Pen-Y-Bryn gets here quicker than letters addressed to Pen-Y-Bryn terrace. Hmm.....

[editor]

When the (English-owned) mines and railways rolled into Wales, some of the wealthy English owners decided that they didn't like the thousand-year old place names and renamed them with easier-to-pronounce Anglicised versions.

So Caerdydd became Cardiff, Abertawe became Swansea and Casnewydd-ar-Wysg was changed into Newport. The same kind of bastardisation went on all over Wales.

On a matter of principle, I always address mail back to family and friends in Wales in the Welsh language.

[ernestoslunch]

fecking nonsense.

crap little conquered nation. time to just admit it and call them all by english names!

bloody neolithic celts.

[rednblack]

££££'s from you meladdo!

i knew you couldnt do it! :D

[editor]

fecking nonsense.

crap little conquered nation. time to just admit it and call them all by english names!

bloody neolithic celts.This appears to be a truly wafer thin attempt at trolling.

You have one post to explain yourself before you're banned (and your other log in too).

Your call.

[spacemonkey]

That post makes you look like a bit of a tool. I like to use welsh names when sending letters back aswell, but it makes no difference as they only look at the st name and postcode anyway. As every1 else said, a street name is a street name.

[RubberBuccaneer]

It doesn't really matter what address you use,
However in Ely a district of Cardiff there are seperate streets with the same translation, e.g there's a Ty Coch road and a Red house road, both mean the same but are actually different roads but nearby, also Heol y Felin and Mill road, and a couple of others that i can't remember. But they are all on the same side of the road and very close.
Wierd eh?

[bagpws]

Tis true that it is a very confusing state of affairs ! What the council should do is replace all the signs with bilingual ones. At the moment if a street sign is in English a lot of people(including myself) tend to use the welsh version anyway, for example Cathedral Road is Heol y Gadeirlan and St Mary's Street is Heol Eglwys Fair and so on. I suppose this could cause some confusion with the Royal Snail but a correct postcode should ensure that it arrives safely at the correct address.

[Snorkelboy]

Tis true that it is a very confusing state of affairs ! What the council should do is replace all the signs with bilingual ones. At the moment if a street sign is in English a lot of people(including myself) tend to use the welsh version anyway, for example Cathedral Road is Heol y Gadeirlan and St Mary's Street is Heol Eglwys Fair and so on. I suppose this could cause some confusion with the Royal Snail but a correct postcode should ensure that it arrives safely at the correct address.

Quite a few places around here do not have Welsh names any more.

[canizares]

Ernestolunch -racist wanker. fuck off.

RubberBuccaneer - that's scary - I was just about to post the exact same think about heol-y-felin and mill road. I used to live literally round the corner!

The scope for confusion I suppose arises where you've got a place name that is genuinely bilingual - ie where the english and welsh are very different, and both are generally in use. I cant imaging it's a big problem naowadays though - isn'r most stuff basically done just from the postcode and house number?

[mwgdrwg]

In an ideal world I would ban all English addresses in Wales. I hate the cunts that put a v in Caernarfon, a double c in Cricieth, changed the Faenol to Vaynol. Bastards. What happens is that the Welsh translation becomes an afterthought.

When I send letters to London, Liverpool, Manchester I don't expect the English to understand Llundain, Manceinion, and Lerpwl. Why should we change our place names to suit?

Dub, please use your influence to put Welsh FIRST in Wales. Banning English addresses would be even better.

Ta.

mwgdrwg (with an 800 year old chip on his shoulder :))

[Pingu]

i lived, for an unfortunatly short period, in a beautiful village in snowdonia where the street names were in welsh fist (hurrah) and then in english beneath them (boooo) :)

letters sent to the "welsh address" nearly always arrived a day earler than those with the same postmark but using the english address.


strange observation .. you can tell how "welsh" an area is by the road signs... in ascending order of welshness:

english only
english then welsh
welsh then english
welsh only
welsh with english words painted out :D

[Wolfie]

..... welsh with english words painted out :D

that's the case where I live :D

to add to the confusion there is variation in the spelling of some place names. Where I live is spelt differently, in Welsh, on two road signs with a third variation on the OS map.

I've also seen Pwllheli spelt Bwllheli :confused:

[Snorkelboy]

In an ideal world I would ban all English addresses in Wales. I hate the cunts that put a v in Caernarfon, a double c in Cricieth, changed the Faenol to Vaynol. Bastards. What happens is that the Welsh translation becomes an afterthought.

When I send letters to London, Liverpool, Manchester I don't expect the English to understand Llundain, Manceinion, and Lerpwl. Why should we change our place names to suit?

Dub, please use your influence to put Welsh FIRST in Wales. Banning English addresses would be even better.

Ta.

mwgdrwg (with an 800 year old chip on his shoulder :))

In City & County of Swansea 81% of residents don't speak Welsh. Why should 4/5ths of the population not have signage in their language?

[RubberBuccaneer]

In City & County of Swansea 81% of residents don't speak Welsh. Why should 4/5ths of the population not have signage in their language?

Because its the bastard polite thing to do when you're in someones country.

[Snorkelboy]

Because its the bastard polite thing to do when you're in someones country.

You what?

Are you suggesting that the 81% of people in C&C Swansea who don't speak welsh are not welsh?

And BTW - I wasn't saying we shouldn't have bilingual signs, just that it's ridiculous to have signs only in welsh as was suggested.

[canizares]

Bwlleli would be a mutation, wouldn't it? - for those with absolutely no knowledge of welsh, some words change their first letter depending on the word before them - a bit like the way you use 'an' instead of 'a' before a vowel sound in english.

I'm not a fluent welsh speaker (though I am certainly welsh - the language of my parents is not mine or their fault)- so feel free to correct me.

[RubberBuccaneer]

My public apologies, I read it as a call for English only signs not bilingual.

[Snorkelboy]

My public apologies, I read it as a call for English only signs not bilingual.

Accepted.

As has been noted above, street names are one or the other here, whereas cities/town/village signs are bilingual where there are bilingual names.

In places like Saundersfoot the welsh name was lost centuries ago.

[mwgdrwg]

In City & County of Swansea 81% of residents don't speak Welsh. Why should 4/5ths of the population not have signage in their language?

I don't think I could ever explain this to you. When some other country goes on a mission to destroy the English language, and it just about survives, you might understand.

[mwgdrwg]

Bwlleli would be a mutation, wouldn't it? - for those with absolutely no knowledge of welsh, some words change their first letter depending on the word before them - a bit like the way you use 'an' instead of 'a' before a vowel sound in english.

I'm not a fluent welsh speaker (though I am certainly welsh - the language of my parents is not mine or their fault)- so feel free to correct me.

You are right. If I was saying I'm "from Pwllheli" it would be "...o Bwllheli". Another mutation would be "in Pwllheli", this would mutate to "...ym Mhwllheli".

[Snorkelboy]

I don't think I could ever explain this to you. When some other country goes on a mission to destroy the English language, and it just about survives, you might understand.


Actually the language of my homeland was destroyed by the English (far more completely than Welsh was).

I wouldn't agree with all the signage in my homeland being in the original language only which I (and the majority of the people who astill live there) don't speak.

And I think it's fucking disgusting that you think that all the signs in Swansea should only be in a language that 19% of the population can read.

[mwgdrwg]

Actually the language of my homeland was destroyed by the English (far more completely than Welsh was).

I wouldn't agree with all the signage in my homeland being in the original language only which I (and the majority of the people who astill live there) don't speak.

And I think it's fucking disgusting that you think that all the signs in Swansea should only be in a language that 19% of the population can read.

That's absolutely what I believe. People with similar views have ensured the survival of the Welsh language in near impossible circumstances. I would die for it, so I don't give a fuck if some non-Welsh speaker wants Swansea on a sign instead of Abertawe.

[Snorkelboy]

I would die for it, so I don't give a fuck if some non-Welsh speaker wants Swansea on a sign instead of Abertawe.

Firstly YOU are the one who wants anything "instead of", I'm a firm believer in bilingualism.

And secondly it's not "some non-Welsh speaker" it's 81% of the population for fucks sake.

[mwgdrwg]

Firstly YOU are the one who wants anything "instead of", I'm a firm believer in bilingualism.

And secondly it's not "some non-Welsh speaker" it's 81% of the population for fucks sake.

Yes, I want Welsh only place names instead of bilingual ones in Wales. Call it "fucking disgusting" if you wish.

[Snorkelboy]

Yes, I want Welsh only place names instead of bilingual ones in Wales. Call it "fucking disgusting" if you wish.

So what's going to happen to saundersfoot in your ideal dictatorship then?

[mwgdrwg]

So what's going to happen to saundersfoot in your ideal dictatorship then?

Renamed. Just as Dyffryn has been renamed "Fali" on Anglesey. Next.

[Snorkelboy]

So why should the minority's wishes be more important than the majority's?

[mwgdrwg]

The majority can sometimes be wrong (see biometric ID cards).

[Snorkelboy]

The majority can sometimes be wrong (see biometric ID cards).

But of course you are right?

How are you going to do it. Is the North going to march on the South and occupy us?

[Wolfie]

You are right. If I was saying I'm "from Pwllheli" it would be "...o Bwllheli". Another mutation would be "in Pwllheli", this would mutate to "...ym Mhwllheli".

:eek: and I was hoping to learn Welsh. As someone who failed O Level French and wasn't even allowed to take the latin exam I don't stand an earthly do I?

I'l just have to stick to my slowly improving "Wenglish" :rolleyes:

[Pingu]

Renamed. Just as Dyffryn has been renamed "Fali" on Anglesey. Next.


Ynys Môn if you dont mind :) (where I woz born: Camaes)

my welsh is just about passable these days but wherever I go in the world I try to learn the local language as I think its rude not too.


I have to say I am not a nationalist by any stretch of the imagination but I am very proud of my Welsh heriatige and maybe people should look into the extremly brutal treatment of the Welsh by the English before passing comments on why a lot of Welsh people have so little time for the English





come home to a real fire... buy a holiday cottage in Denbych :)

[Pingu]

:eek: and I was hoping to learn Welsh. As someone who failed O Level French and wasn't even allowed to take the latin exam I don't stand an earthly do I?

I'l just have to stick to my slowly improving "Wenglish" :rolleyes:


just to make your thoughts even more confused there are differences between northern (gog - caveman) and southern (BBC ) welsh too.

its worth it though as its a beautiful melodic language. Plus it helps you avoid a kicking in some pubs in Caernafon.

[stdPikachu]

Yes, I want Welsh only place names instead of bilingual ones in Wales. Call it "fucking disgusting" if you wish.

And what about the old english names? I used to live in a town near the English border with an anglo-saxon (note: that's not welsh, never has been, never will) name. This too should be welshified and renamed?

The road I used to live on was named after the local nobleman thingy who'd been living in the area for centuries. The welshification of this street name resulted in the council mis-spelling his family name on the street sign. I can handle that, but I can't handle removing his real name after his real one has been edited.

To take your point to it's logical conclusion would be to ban the teaching and speaking of english in wales and changing the names of anyone with a non-welsh name. You live in a bilingual country. Get over it.

[Snorkelboy]

wherever I go in the world I try to learn the local language as I think its rude not too.


But my point is that in a lot of wales the local language is English.

[Dr. Christmas]

I thought that this thread would go this way. :(

Another fucking Wales vs. Wales fixture. No-one's better at it than ourselves.

[Strumpet]

Don't have anything to add about place names that hasnt already been said.

I popped in to sit with my fellow welshppl, maybe get a cwtch or two and feel all comfy n cosy and at home etc......but errmmmm.......

*sneaks back out* :rolleyes:

[s14n]

Ditto, nothing quite like feeling as though you are a pariah in your own homeland :rolleyes:

[mwgdrwg]

I thought that this thread would go this way. :(

Another fucking Wales vs. Wales fixture. No-one's better at it than ourselves.

Sad but true.

[LilMissHissyFit]

Ditto, nothing quite like feeling as though you are a pariah in your own homeland :rolleyes:

Its quite pathetic. I think we live in a bilingual country and should celecrate and cherish it as it is not fight over some sort of welsh language superiority.I also think the welsh nationalists and welsh language activists should remember its not been long since children were taught no welsh at school ( I did 2 years of 2 hours a week... hardly enough to learn anything)

Rightly people should be able to recieve information in welsh or english, street signs should have both english and welsh on them etc.
Like it or not if you implement a welsh only policy you will cost this county millions as its now becoming a properous, cosmopoiltan nation after decades of being marginalised ( by the english).Trade will fall if you wont trade in english or do business using the english language. Nobody else in the world is going to go off and become fluent in welsh in order to do business here,take a holiday here or visit for business they'll just avoid coming here.

You have to face facts. most people in Wales dont speak welsh as their first language. By all means cherish it, encourage its use and teach it in schools, offer free courses to whoever wants to learn ( all of those happen already) but forcing english speakers who are welsh born and bred to use welsh will cause a mass revolt against the langage. It would be counterproductive and most english speakers would simply react in the same way that the welsh did when english was enforced years ago, only now I expect far more militantly.

[LilMissHissyFit]

I don't think I could ever explain this to you. When some other country goes on a mission to destroy the English language, and it just about survives, you might understand.

And forcing Welsh people who are first language english to speak, read and converse in welsh would do just that.English people in wales would feel like foreigners in their own country. Its hardly progressive.
People born bred and brought up here (and who identify themselves as as welsh as the next person no matter what language they speak) would have to choose between the language of their choice/mothervtonugue and the homeland in which they live

Times have changed, you cannot change the past. You cab encourage by all means but you'll never get enforced welsh speaking/signage in Wales. it just wont happen.

[jd]

You live in a bilingual country. Get over it.

This is true - but maybe it wouldn't be if it wasn't for the hard-line attitudes in the past of people like mwgdrwg? My parents got beaten if they spoke welsh at school (in the 30s) - that wasn't designed to promote a bilingual society was it? It was designed to make English the only language spoken there (particularly by wealthy/educated people).

Wales is bilingual - to an extent at least - because hardcore Welsh speakers have tried to ensure that the language is still a living language of Wales. Otherwise, maybe, it would have gone the way of Gaelic in Scotland.

I do think it's too late to stop English being the dominant language in Wales, but it's simplistic to say that Welsh language campaigning is pointless for that reason. Personally, I think Welsh, then English is best for signs and so on. Promote Welsh, but don't try to pretend that everyone in Wales is Meibion Glyndwr. Welsh english-speakers have rights too, don't they?

[Snorkelboy]

but it's simplistic to say that Welsh language campaigning is pointless for that reason.

But nobody has said that AFAICS.

Everybody who has disagreed with Mwgrdwg has been positive about encouraging the Welsh Language, just not oppressive imposing of it on the majority of welsh people who don't speak it.

[jd]

But nobody has said that AFAICS.

Everybody who has disagreed with Mwgrdwg has been positive about encouraging the Welsh Language, just not oppressive imposing of it on the majority of welsh people who don't speak it.


Did I attribute that comment to a poster?

At any rate, "You live in a bilingual country - get over it" seemed to me to be less than positive. People are reasonable about multi-lingual issues these days, but that's not always been the case. I thought it worth making the point that imposing a language that the majority don't speak is exactly what happened in Wales, with English, in the hope that it would promote understanding... and perhaps suggest that without those extreme attitutudes that wouldn't be a bilingual culture in wales at all.

I don't agree, but I understand why some people get so angry about it. Repression of Welsh occured within living memory.

[mwgdrwg]

Its quite pathetic. I think we live in a bilingual country and should celecrate and cherish it as it is not fight over some sort of welsh language superiority.I also think the welsh nationalists and welsh language activists should remember its not been long since children were taught no welsh at school ( I did 2 years of 2 hours a week... hardly enough to learn anything)

Rightly people should be able to recieve information in welsh or english, street signs should have both english and welsh on them etc.
Like it or not if you implement a welsh only policy you will cost this county millions as its now becoming a properous, cosmopoiltan nation after decades of being marginalised ( by the english).Trade will fall if you wont trade in english or do business using the english language. Nobody else in the world is going to go off and become fluent in welsh in order to do business here,take a holiday here or visit for business they'll just avoid coming here.

You have to face facts. most people in Wales dont speak welsh as their first language. By all means cherish it, encourage its use and teach it in schools, offer free courses to whoever wants to learn ( all of those happen already) but forcing english speakers who are welsh born and bred to use welsh will cause a mass revolt against the langage. It would be counterproductive and most english speakers would simply react in the same way that the welsh did when english was enforced years ago, only now I expect far more militantly.

I hear what you're saying but it's not what we were debating at all!

In essence the debate was about wether Welsh place names should have an English counterpart.

[Snorkelboy]

I hear what you're saying but it's not what we were debating at all!

In essence the debate was about wether Welsh place names should have an English counterpart.

No - not at all.

Swansea is called and thought of as Swansea by the vast majority of its people. To remove Swansea from signs would be unjust.

Lilmisshissyfit was right to imply that the logical extension of your idea is to ban the official use of the English Language (the majority language in Wales).

[mwgdrwg]

And forcing Welsh people who are first language english to speak, read and converse in welsh would do just that.English people in wales would feel like foreigners in their own country. Its hardly progressive.
People born bred and brought up here (and who identify themselves as as welsh as the next person no matter what language they speak) would have to choose between the language of their choice/mothervtonugue and the homeland in which they live

Times have changed, you cannot change the past. You cab encourage by all means but you'll never get enforced welsh speaking/signage in Wales. it just wont happen.

The Welsh have never (and probably never will) force anyone to speak Welsh. The English on the other hand...

[Snorkelboy]

The Welsh have never (and probably never will) force anyone to speak Welsh. The English on the other hand...

You seem to have a logical block. Swansea is not English speaking because it's full of English people. It's English speaking because of historical injustices (yes, by the English). But imposing Welsh on the English speaking Welsh people is just as unjust.

[mwgdrwg]

No - not at all.

Swansea is called and thought of as Swansea by the vast majority of its people. To remove Swansea from signs would be unjust.

Lilmisshissyfit was right to imply that the logical extension of your idea is to ban the official use of the English Language (the majority language in Wales).

That would be a stupid thing to do. But I still (in some fanciful utopian dream) wish that Welsh place names were Welsh only...

[mwgdrwg]

You seem to have a logical block. Swansea is not English speaking because it's full of English people. It's English speaking because of historical injustices (yes, by the English). But imposing Welsh on the English speaking Welsh people is just as unjust.

This is what we will (forever) disagree on. I do not think it is unjust to have Welsh only place names and you do.

Let's be clear that we're talking about place names...I 100% believe in bilingualism in business, education, conversation etc.

[Snorkelboy]

This is what we will (forever) disagree on. I do not think it is unjust to have Welsh only place names and you do.
.[/B]

OK - glad we agree on the bilingual thing.

I don't think it's unjust to have Welsh only place names. I just think that the only way it's going to happen is by some outside force imposing it on the people of the area. Which would be unjust.

[ICB]

Road signs in Welsh then English are a danger to 80%+ of the road users in Wales because half the time you haven't read it by the time you've passed it, as has been pointed out to me numerous times by Welsh people since I've been staying in Crug Hywel (Crickhowell) and working in Aberhonddu (Brecon).

I'm keen to learn Welsh as I'm going to be living here and working in a public service role but I'm concerned that the political differences around the language issue are having a damaging effect on Wales' economy and identity - it's clearly a linguistically and ideologically divided country in a way I hadn't appreciated before and I don't think this state of affairs is in anyone's best interests, although I've no idea what can be done about it. :confused:

(fekkin English immigrant stealing our jobs and bumping up our house prices, you're not entitled to an opinion)

[mwgdrwg]

OK - glad we agree on the bilingual thing.

I don't think it's unjust to have Welsh only place names. I just think that the only way it's going to happen is by some outside force imposing it on the people of the area. Which would be unjust.

Ok. Let's give it a rest now and have a pint and a spliff please.

[Snorkelboy]

Ok. Let's give it a rest now and have a pint and a spliff please.

A nice double dragon for me :)

[LilMissHissyFit]

That would be a stupid thing to do. But I still (in some fanciful utopian dream) wish that Welsh place names were Welsh only...

Well you seem to be projecting that very forcefully in your posts and you do come across as favouring a totally welsh environment. Whats the point in welsh only signs when people come from emgland and know a place as Swansea and cant find it becuase youve suddenly taken that away and replaced it with Abertawe?

Ask people in england where Angelsey is and they can tell you, ask where Ynys Mon is and they will go eh??? WTF? wheres that? Someplace in Wales???

[mwgdrwg]

...well it's Friday lunchtime so I'm off to the pub!

[ernestolynch]

Well you seem to be projecting that very forcefully in your posts and you do come across as favouring a totally welsh environment. Whats the point in welsh only signs when people come from emgland and know a place as Swansea and cant find it becuase youve suddenly taken that away and replaced it with Abertawe?

Ask people in england where Angelsey is and they can tell you, ask where Ynys Mon is and they will go eh??? WTF? wheres that? Someplace in Wales???

No reason to stay stuck in the 1800s is it? People have since called Ghana 'Ghana' instead of the Gold Coast you know....and I don't see signs for King's County and Queen's County in Ireland any more...

[s14n]

Exactly, but also it's wise to be realistic about the present makeup of a country, we're not all living and speaking nothing but welsh anymore :)

I'm welsh, not in your face combative, but welsh nevertheless, my grandparents suffered the canings to "encourage" english speaking only, it's filtered down till my family are english speaking only, so I'm aware of the past injustices.

Ideally I'd like to see all place names in both Welsh and english, welsh first. As far as informational road signs, and those covering road safety are concerned, bilingual, probably with english first simply for safety reasons.

We are not only a bilingual society now but a multicultural one, but there comes a point where you simply cannot have every language represented, Welsh and english are our standards, and so they should be the ones used.

As far as the original subject of addresses goes, they work now with a mix of street names etc, I have the same opinion as the majority, leave them alone at a street or road level (but widely encourage town village and city names to be used in both welsh and then english :))

[tanbycroft]

When I write, as I very often do, to one of the great (not!) public authorities in Cardiff which seems to be staffed for the most part by lunatics on day release from the asylum I always spell the town "Caerdydd" just to take the piss: I believe that the inmates, despite being uppity Taffs to a (wo)man, don't as a rule speak Welsh.

[nwnm]

Tnn