View Full Version : Brixton's Culture Blanding Out
Reposted from another thread.
Sod all these bland new places. I couldn't give a flying fuck about any of them.
And you just watch "The Queens". That pub is being kept ticking over with no identity after the characters and drunks have been "ethnically cleansed" while developers buy up the neglected but central Pullross Rd/Bellefield Rd area, flog it to conservative young professionals who will then see The Queens become a "charming little Gastro pub" - just you wait and see.
I am HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS of Lambeth's property sell-offs.
The sign outside Red Post Cafe says something about another crack house closure. It wasn't. But the building belongs to Lambeth. Why not kill two birds with one stone and get rid of a noisy Jamaican cafe and free up some property for sale at the same time!
Something big's going on. We'll see Brixton a pale (in more ways than one) shadow of itself in the future, with anyone and anything remotely challenging to the new gentry silenced or removed. This is the plan for Brixton and London.
It was partly because of the very marginality of Brixton that it's creativity was born.
I don't see how labelling Brixton a "cultural quarter" while at the same time mainstreaming it and disassociating it from unconventional people, the mad and the poor is compatible.
Discuss. :)
As I posted up elsewhere Ive heard rumours that the Council(the present Lib/Dem Tory administration) is working itself up for more sales of "empty" housing to developers.If it can get the Short/Life or long term squatters out.(See St Agnes thread etc).
As a lot of the people who have helped make Brixton a "cultural quarter" live in such property Hatboys predictions could be sooner rather than later.
Dubversion
21-03-2004, 23:30
Discuss. :)
sad to say, i can't think of much to discuss. i think you've pretty much nailed, it hatboy :(
nick1181
21-03-2004, 23:38
It isn't just Brixton, this is happening allover. In some ways it's a good thing. In others it isn't. Brighton ten years ago was all fish and chip restaurants, it's a lot more interesting now... but now it's clangingly middle classed. All these young home-owners sitting on flats worth 200k.
Discuss. :)
Even if this is true, nothing is permanent. Everything is temporary. It is not the end of the world. There are much more urgent and important things for the pessimists to be wringing their hands about.
:)
aurora green
22-03-2004, 08:09
Yeah, I'd agree it's the ever widening gap betwen rich and poor that exacerbates things.
The demise of the local pub, I mean how many do you know that have closed and developed into 'luxury' flats? The eviction of nearly all the squatters, no more social centers like 121 or cooltan or Button factory.
It feels as if the only people being catered for are the cappicino sipping, property owning types, The more disadvantaged or marginalized peoples ability to organise for themselves is deminishing as rents go sky high.
The other day, I was meeting my kids dad in Brixton and we arranged to meet at the Lounge after hearing good stuff about it, but when we got there and looked in the window, everyone in there was white, and we just didn't fancy it.
I dont know what can be done, but giving local people opportunities to run shops, stalls, cafes and bars could help things, but doing stuff like privatising the market just going to make things worse.
Streathamite
22-03-2004, 08:13
what nick1181 said.
Plus-once you got capitalism, gentrification happens. I can see the place getting staider and more bourgeois, all the vitality "designered" out of it-but, on the bright side, you won't ever completely kill its' individuality, because you can't drive the most long-standing parts of the community out of it.
Minnie_the_Minx
22-03-2004, 16:35
got a phone call last night off old landlady from the White Horse who was there for a years (when it was a slightly er... rougher pub).
She was absolutely stunned when I told her what had happened to Brixton and its pubs. :(
IntoStella
22-03-2004, 16:38
Regarding those parts of this problem that have Lambeth at their root -- and that is most of them in one way or another -- there will be elections next year (that's right, isn't it?) and the Lib Dem/Tory coalition are, IMV, trying to push forward as much of their agenda as they can in the remaining 14 months of their current term of office. Even if it means telling people a lot of bare faced lies. So yes, I am sure there is shit going down and we have to stand up to it but hopefully the Lib-Tories won't be there come next May. That won't make things perfect but hopefully the frenzy of destruction and deception will stop. Hopefully. :eek:
William of Walworth
22-03-2004, 20:58
Even if this is true, nothing is permanent. Everything is temporary. It is not the end of the world. There are much more urgent and important things for the pessimists to be wringing their hands about.
:)
What on earth are you on about? Genuinely :confused:
ernestolynch
22-03-2004, 21:06
we arranged to meet at the Lounge after hearing good stuff about it, but when we got there and looked in the window, everyone in there was black, and we just didn't fancy it.
I dont know what can be done, but giving local people opportunities to run shops, stalls, cafes and bars could help things,
we arranged to meet at the Lounge after hearing good stuff about it, but when we got there and looked in the window, everyone in there was white, and we just didn't fancy it.
I dont know what can be done, but giving local people opportunities to run shops, stalls, cafes and bars could help things,
yessirreeeee
ernestolynch
22-03-2004, 21:09
Something big's going on. We'll see Brixton a pale (in more ways than one) shadow of itself in the future,
Explain please.
Streathamite
22-03-2004, 21:16
ignoring ern's trolling...and raising one of hatboys earlier points
I am HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS of Lambeth's property sell-offs.
The sign outside Red Post Cafe says something about another crack house closure. It wasn't. But the building belongs to Lambeth
is it my imagination, or are the LibDems running the show now desperate to flog off everything that ain't nailed down?
aurora green
22-03-2004, 21:20
Ernestolynch, I dont think its right that you deliberately misquote me.
I am confused. The reason I am put off going to an exclusively white place, is 'cos I just dont feel comfotable hanging out in brixton in such a place. I live a huge estate, my kids go to school here, I just prefer a mixed vibe.
I am gutted if I can be misunderstood here as rascist, perhaps I am not understanding your point, and you could explain it to me.
Ignore ern he's just being a prick again.
What on earth are you on about? Genuinely :confused:
That I do not share the apocolyptic view of Brixton's fate becuase of change.
Basically.
The other day, I was meeting my kids dad in Brixton and we arranged to meet at the Lounge after hearing good stuff about it, but when we got there and looked in the window, everyone in there was white, and we just didn't fancy it.
Terrible! Full of white people! Urrgh, how horrible. Yuck! That is why I stay out of Brick Lane - full of brown people. Disgusting! And Chinatown is full of yellow people. Vomit!
What the fuck is wrong with you?
what nick1181 said.
Plus-once you got capitalism, gentrification happens. I can see the place getting staider and more bourgeois, all the vitality "designered" out of it-but, on the bright side, you won't ever completely kill its' individuality, because you can't drive the most long-standing parts of the community out of it.
Yes but it is capitalism (not defending it per se) that was so influential in shaping what Brixton became! My partner's mum from Jamaica for example - her reaction to the 'no blacks no Irish & no dogs' capitalism of the 1950's was typical. It said: sod you, we'll buy our own property. And she did, and became an owner occupier.
Ernestolynch, I dont think its right that you deliberately misquote me.
I am confused. The reason I am put off going to an exclusively white place, is 'cos I just dont feel comfotable hanging out in brixton in such a place. I live a huge estate, my kids go to school here, I just prefer a mixed vibe.
I am gutted if I can be misunderstood here as rascist, perhaps I am not understanding your point, and you could explain it to me.
If a Daily Mail reader from Tunbridge Wells posted here, saying that she wouldn't enter a restaurant full of black people, because she'd grown up in an area that was all white, so she didn't feel comfortable going to such a place, what sort of reception would she get, I wonder? Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending her position, or even saying that it is exactly analagous to yours, but surely you can see how people raise an eyebrow at your decision not to patronise a restaurant based on the race of it's clientele? I appreciate that there are some sophisticated arguments surrounding the social context of your actions, but, on the face of it, at least, doesn't it smack of double standards? (Please don't get all defensive, I'm not calling you a racist, I'm just interested in your take on this.)
aurora green
23-03-2004, 08:55
What the fuck is wrong with you?
I dont know, maybe it was full of people like you.
Actually, I dont like hanging out with the rich wherever they maybe.
look, I'm sorry everyong if my comments come across wrong, I guess I'm not making myself clear. I personally just dont like the way Brixton seems to be getting more and more of a white middle class place, and I dont want to be assosiated with that.
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 09:02
is it my imagination, or are the LibDems running the show now desperate to flog off everything that ain't nailed down?I already said that. Do pay attention. :p ;) I think the closer we get to the next elections, the more desperate they are to push through their agenda.
Fanta -- it's incredible. I don't know how you manage it. Your attempts at satirising (and misrepresenting) other peoples' viewpoints just get more clumsy and tedious with every passing day. Not funny, not clever and not in the tiniest bit interesting.
I dont know, maybe it was full of people like you.
Actually, I dont like hanging out with the rich wherever they maybe.
look, I'm sorry everyong if my comments come across wrong, I guess I'm not making myself clear. I personally just dont like the way Brixton seems to be getting more and more of a white middle class place, and I dont want to be assosiated with that.
But you didn't mention the fact that they were rich, merely that they were white!
Would you mind if Brixton became a white working class place, or a black middle class area?
I dont know, maybe it was full of people like you.
Actually, I dont like hanging out with the rich wherever they maybe.
look, I'm sorry everyong if my comments come across wrong, I guess I'm not making myself clear. I personally just dont like the way Brixton seems to be getting more and more of a white middle class place, and I dont want to be assosiated with that.
You have never met me and yet you're making insulting judgments about me.
That is prejudice. But then going by your posts above you're no stranger to that habit.
If you don't like the way you perceive Bixton to be going then you can always leave.
And good riddance too, I don't want prejudiced people like you cluttering up my streets.
Good bye.
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 09:07
Would you mind if Brixton became a white working class place, or a black middle class area? Questions of this sort are completely irrelevant and a red herring. It is pointless to even consider them. The area has a unique mix of races, class and cultures and this sort of gross simplification does no-one any good.
Oh and well done fanta -- you just lost the argument. :rolleyes:
I already said that. Do pay attention. :p ;) I think the closer we get to the next elections, the more desperate they are to push through their agenda.
Fanta -- it's incredible. I don't know how you manage it. Your attempts at satirising (and misrepresenting) other peoples' viewpoints just get more clumsy and tedious with every passing day. Not funny, not clever and not in the tiniest bit interesting.
I'm not satirising anybody. Read again, slowly, what aurora posted.
If someone had said they didn't fancy going into the Angel on Coldharbour Lane because it was full of black people then no one would be chirruping sanctimoniously more loudly than you.
Would they my dear?
:)
Questions of this sort are completely irrelevant and a red herring. It is pointless to even consider them. The area has a unique mix of races, class and cultures and this sort of gross simplification does no-one any good.
Hint to posters: when your smug complacency has been pricked, and you're confounded and stuck for a good enough retort, always endeavour to brush off the question as rubbish.
That'll work.
Questions of this sort are completely irrelevant and a red herring. It is pointless to even consider them. The area has a unique mix of races, class and cultures and this sort of gross simplification does no-one any good.
Oh and well done fanta -- you just lost the argument. :rolleyes:
With respect, I think it is relevant: I was replying to aurora's statement that she objected to Brixton becoming 'a white middle class place.' She'd already mentioned that she didn't want to go into a restaurant because it was full of white people, then went on to say that she doesn't 'like hanging out with the rich.' I was wondering who it is she dislikes moving into Brixton: middle-class people, or white people, or both, or neither.
Even if this is true, nothing is permanent. Everything is temporary. It is not the end of the world. There are much more urgent and important things for the pessimists to be wringing their hands about.
:)
I think that's largely right, but that doesn't mean that watching the changes, and trying to understand them, isn't worthwhile.
seems to me there are three separate but interleaved issues:
* economic 'longest economic boom in 200 years' or whatever it was Brown said; couple that with my regular point about Brixton in particular and London in general being incredibly popular for good reasons, and it's just obvious that every bit of space is being pressed into service to chase money. There's little room in the current climate for economically unproductive capacity. The only way that will change is major, longterm (regional/national) economic downturn or reduced local popularity.
* political tribally the Tories and their close mates the LDs represent financial stakeholders in the borough: homeowners, businesses, landlords, those who have a financial interest in local prosperity. It's possible (I don't know the demographics) that they also represent the huge number of nearly invisible churchgoers who live around here (and whose views on vibrant street culture and the night economy, including pubs, shouldn't be ignored). They are quite clearly translating that constituency into a drive towards attracting money and respectability into the area. That means getting rid of a lot of the marginal stuff that's existed in Brixton far longer than elsewhere, including shortlife and squats; front businesses that exist to serve illegal trading and Lambeth owned squalor. They're riding the crest of the economic boom so money is pouring into the area and trickledown economics is being played out: the proportion of stakeholders is rising, locals are better off now than anytime in the last 30 years.
* cultural sorry folks, but like it or not you're not going to be able to recreate your heyday in the 90s or whenever. Cooltan has gone forever, you'll have to get used to nostalgia, it's part of the ageing process. You could, of course, overcome the obstacles and build a fresh new naughties cultural life you like better than what's currently on offer, but doing it in Brixton in a relatively cashfree way will be much harder than anytime in the past few decades, see above. But that doesn't mean it can't be done. Meanwhile it's pretty clear that there is a lot of people who like Brixton cultural life the way it is.
It seems to me that, as fanta says, everything is temporary, and the wheel has turned such that Brixton is becoming somewhere that makes me feel increasingly uncomfortable. I have no faith that voting out the T/LD privatisers will change anything significantly, nor that the economic or cultural forces at work will leave Brixton as it is, let alone reverse the gentrification trend.
aurora green
23-03-2004, 09:30
Rather than focusing the entire thread on me, its obvious I dont like anyone and its not the first time I've ben invited to leave Brixton on these boards,
Perhaps it might be more relevant to ask why a new venue such as the Lounge had not one black face in it. Perhaps it was just a one off, and perhaps as you all say, I am a racist for caring, but it troubles me that somewhere new in Railton Rd ffs, should seem white only. :(
Rather than focusing the entire thread on me, its obvious I dont like anyone and its not the first time I've ben invited to leave Brixton on these boards,
Perhaps it might be more relevant to ask why a new venue such as the Lounge had not one black face in it. Perhaps it was just a one off, and perhaps as you all say, I am a racist for caring, but it troubles me that somewhere new in Railton Rd ffs, should seem white only. :(
Would you be troubled to find a bar that was black only, in Brixton?
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 09:34
Hint to posters: when your smug complacency has been pricked, and you're confounded and stuck for a good enough retort, always endeavour to brush off the question as rubbish.
That'll work.Or you could just be an obnoxious twonk, I suppose. :rolleyes:
It's invariably people coming from the right who put up this clunky diversionary tactic of asking ''oh, so what would your idea of a Utopian Brixton be? No whites? No middle class people?" etc etc. It is invariably a very thinly veiled attack accusing others of idealism, nimbyism (that one always makes me chortle) or swivelly-eyed despotism. It is utterly pointless to engage with the debate on that debased level.
You know perfectly well that the likes of Aurora (and myself) are not trying to impose some sort of Stalinist social control on Brixton involving throwing all the white yuppies into the Effra. It's an insult to people's intelligence to keep rolling out these tired, hackneyed tactics.
Perhaps it might be more relevant to ask why a new venue such as the Lounge had not one black face in it. (You've got that completely wrong.
Not only is the Lounge owned by a black guy - it's always enjoyed a mixed clientèle from the day it opened - see for yourself here (http://www.brixtonlounge.com/gallery.html)
Exactly what are you basing your woefully inaccurate 'no blacks' claim on? One quick look through the window?
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 09:44
Thousands of the blacks who settled in Brixton and Clapham in the Fifties have sold their houses for a mint to the middle-classes (of all colours and nationalities), and have and are relocating to larger properties - semi-detached 1930s housing - in Thornton Heath, Norbury, South Norwood and Penge.
Maybe the 'Brixton Traditionalists' would want them not to move out? Perhaps their teenage dreams of living 'on the edge' in Brixton (ooh how that'll shock the ex-schoolmates and family back home in Godalming) are being slowly sapped by the upward mobility of the Windrush generation? Shouldn't the West Indians stay in Brixton to provide a gritty wallpaper and an urban vibe to our trustafarian Guardianistas' adventures in 'Riot-ville'?
Sorry kids - hatguy, aura green, et al - you could always move to Thornton Heath - it's the new Brixton after all.
you missed by about 20 years Ern, because TH is gentrifying as well and has been for a long time.
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 09:49
Your argument is totally arse-about-face, Ernie. Moving from Brixton to Norbury does not in any way signify upward mobility. The truth is that black people have been pushed out of Brixton by rising rents and property prices.
It's invariably people coming from the right who put up this clunky diversionary tactic of asking ''oh, so what would your idea of a Utopian Brixton be? No whites? No middle class people?" etc etc.
I'm anything but right wing, but I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on how they would like Brixton to be; this is a thread about what people don't want it to be (i.e. 'gentrified'), after all.
It is invariably a very thinly veiled attack accusing others of idealism, nimbyism (that one always makes me chortle) or swivelly-eyed despotism.
I'm not accusing aurora of nimbyism, idealism or despotism, merely suggesting that her initial post on this thread smacked of double standards.
It is utterly pointless to engage with the debate on that debased level.
Or saying that could be a way to avoid debate.
You know perfectly well that the likes of Aurora (and myself) are not trying to impose some sort of Stalinist social control on Brixton involving throwing all the white yuppies into the Effra. It's an insult to people's intelligence to keep rolling out these tired, hackneyed tactics.
Nobody's suggesting that you are. What's your point?
You've got that completely wrong.
Not only is the Lounge owned by a black guy - it's always enjoyed a mixed clientèle from the day it opened - see for yourself here (http://www.brixtonlounge.com/gallery.html)
Exactly what are you basing your woefully inaccurate 'no blacks' claim on? One quick look through the window?
Seconded. A real slur on an excellent bloke. :(
aurora green
23-03-2004, 09:55
Exactly what are you basing your woefully inaccurate 'no blacks' claim on? One look through the window?
Look, in my inttial post, I just said thats what happened. I wasn't trying to slander the Lounge, its just what happened to me and what I saw on the day. I've already apologised and tried to explan my posts and why I think and said what I did.
I do think there's a race isue to do with gentrification, but I feel sure now, I am not able to argue about it. In fact I hate arguments at all, Im crap at it.
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 09:55
I'm anything but right wingLOL.
If what you say is true, why are you using the same old pro-gentrification tactics that we've seen countless times before? I think you're being somewhat disingenuous.
I do think there's a race isue to do with gentrification, but I feel sure now, I am not able to argue about it. In fact I hate arguments at all, Im crap at it.
If there's one thing I've learnt from these boards it is that you have to think long and hard before you wade into the Race in Brixton debate.
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 10:03
Your argument is totally arse-about-face, Ernie. Moving from Brixton to Norbury does not in any way signify upward mobility. The truth is that black people have been pushed out of Brixton by rising rents and property prices.
You don't think any black people bought up houses themselves? You don't think that they are cashing in on these houses now and moving out to T/H and Addiscombe etc? I suppose you'll deny the existence of a black landlord class now as well.
LOL.
If what you say is true, why are you using the same old pro-gentrification tactics that we've seen countless times before? I think you're being somewhat disingenuous.
I'm not pro-gentrification. Can you show me where I've said that I am, or even where I've said anything that could be construed as pro-gentrification?
The reason I replied to aurora's post was because I'm uncomfortable with people making value judgements about a place based solely on the colour of it's clientele.
I'm in favour of affordable housing in all areas of London, to allow those with links to an area to remian there, and to allow those who might not otherwise get the chance to live there, to do so (i.e preventing the poor from being 'priced out' of certain areas). Aurora seems to be in favour of refusing to drink in certain pubs because they're full of whites!
tarannau
23-03-2004, 10:16
Thousands of the blacks who settled in Brixton and Clapham in the Fifties have sold their houses for a mint to the middle-classes (of all colours and nationalities), and have and are relocating to larger properties - semi-detached 1930s housing - in Thornton Heath, Norbury, South Norwood and Penge.
And I suspect tens of thousands more didn't make a penny when they moved from Brixton, simply because they never had a chance to own the properties in the first place.
Of all the Guyanese families who moved over at the time of my mother - and there are a plenty - I can't think of one that benefitted from selling a property 'for a mint' Whilst they could afford to rent (and could rent) rambling properties in Brixton, Clapham and Streatham, the whole prospect of modernising these crumbling places with central heating, new windows and other basics was financially beyond them.
You're right - most of my family have ended up in Norbury. Mitcham and Thornton Heath now. Not for financial profit however, more that they moved to the only affordable 'family' areas nearby.
And it's only now that those suburbs are beginning to reflect the diversity and needs of the local population. Even ten years ago, some spots in Mitcham and Norbury were resolutely white and BNP proud.
West Indian families cashing in and moving joyfully to the suburbs? The reality was sadly far more disappointing than that...
:(
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 10:17
I suppose you'll deny the existence of a black landlord class now as well. Oh you do, do you? :rolleyes:
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 10:23
Oh you do, do you? :rolleyes:
Fuck knows what that meant.
You have this little fancy idea that no Caribbean immigrants scrimped and saved and bought property in Brixton/Clapham in the 50s/60s/70s with the earnings from their hard work in the NHS/London Transport/construction jobs?
A notion that they aren't flogging their houses now while the property market in Brixton is through the roof, and getting larger properties in Zones 4 and 5?
What - do you feel like they've betrayed you or something?
:confused:
tarannau
23-03-2004, 10:24
You don't think any black people bought up houses themselves? You don't think that they are cashing in on these houses now and moving out to T/H and Addiscombe etc? I suppose you'll deny the existence of a black landlord class now as well.
Not saying that at all. but it's a small proportion. Even in Brixton.
The folks who end up making the most from property development and gentrification are those who start off with money in the first place. Not many from the West Indies had that much to invest when they arrived - certainly most didn't have the resources to effectively become owners or even landlords until the gentrification process was well underway.
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 10:25
Not saying that at all. but it's a small proportion. Even in Brixton.
The folks who end up making the most from property development and gentrification are those who start off with money in the first place. Not many from the West Indies had that much to invest when they arrived.
Who said they bought houses straight away FFS. Read my above post.
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 10:26
You have this little fancy idea that no Caribbean immigrants scrimped and saved and bought property in Brixton/Clapham in the 50s/60s/70s with the earnings from their hard work in the NHS/London Transport/construction jobs? You are 100% wrong. Don't tell me what I think.
Can't you go and play in the general forum or something?
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 10:27
Who said they bought houses straight away FFS. Read my above post.The thing is, tarannau actually knows what he is talking about, which you evidently don't.
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 10:27
You are 100% wrong. Don't tell me what I think.
Can't you go and play in the general forum or something?
So your earlier claim:
Your argument is totally arse-about-face, Ernie. Moving from Brixton to Norbury does not in any way signify upward mobility. The truth is that black people have been pushed out of Brixton by rising rents and property prices.
No longer stands?
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 10:29
The thing is, tarannau actually knows what he is talking about, which you evidently don't.
The hundreds of black families I work with and speak to regularly are a figment of my imagination then.
The hundreds of black families I work with and speak to regularly are a figment of my imagination then.
Ern, I think you'll find that those people's experiences should be discounted: they don't fit in with the trustafarians' ideas of what black people - you know, the ones from 'edgy' 'black' areas - should be like! I bet some of them don't even smoke ganja!
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 10:34
They probably stayed in on the night of the riot as well. :o
They probably stayed in on the night of the riot as well. :o
They're not black; they're middle class! :eek:
tarannau
23-03-2004, 10:39
Who said they bought houses straight away FFS. Read my above post.
I have. You're still an arrogant, deliberately over-argumentative plonker.
How quickly do you think most of these immigrant families were allowed to jump up the career ladder? How long do you honestly think it took them to scrimp and save - on top of the rent/other mortgage - to invest in other properties in the area?
And don't you think, just perhaps, that they could have been financially outgunned by existing landlords, property developers and other 'locals' with greater financial security?
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 10:40
How dare those West Indians come over here, with their Union Jacks, their WW2 medals and their King George VI coronation teatowels - and get regular jobs - and >cough< mortgages!!
They should all be 'colourful characters' standing outside some Anarchist Utopia Squat or something....
Not saying that at all. but it's a small proportion. Even in Brixton.
The folks who end up making the most from property development and gentrification are those who start off with money in the first place. Not many from the West Indies had that much to invest when they arrived - certainly most didn't have the resources to effectively become owners or even landlords until the gentrification process was well underway.
well yes and no. When I moved to this street 20 years ago most houses that were owner occupied were lived in by black families (about half the street was/is HA). Now those families have almost all moved away and many of the houses have been split into flats, some for rent, some for sale. The private half of the street has largely white occupants now.
I already said that. Do pay attention. :p ;) I think the closer we get to the next elections, the more desperate they are to push through their agenda.
I thought Labour had already sold most of it off. Or given it away. Or pissed it up against the wall. I've seen nothing to suggest that things are any worse with the Rainbow Alliance (ahem) than with the hapless pseudo-trots.
I'm a firm believer in tipping people out of office after a few years anyway just to give 'em some thinking time.
well yes and no. When I moved to this street 20 years ago most houses that were owner occupied were lived in by black families (about half the street was/is HA). Now those families have almost all moved away and many of the houses have been split into flats, some for rent, some for sale. The private half of the street has largely white occupants now.
What, black people sold their houses (at enormous profit) and moved out, thereby denying middle class white liberals the chance to take a 'walk on the wild side'. That's terrible! They should learn their places; what are they thinking of bettering their lot, and that of their families, when they should be stuck in Brixton adding a splash of colour?
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 10:47
How dare those West Indians come over here, with their Union Jacks, their WW2 medals and their King George VI coronation teatowels - and get regular jobs - and >cough< mortgages!!
They should all be 'colourful characters' standing outside some Anarchist Utopia Squat or something.... http://www.parentcoachcards.com/images/excard4.gif
I really can't be arsed with this.
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 10:49
What, black people sold their houses (at enormous profit) and moved out, thereby denying middle class white liberals the chance to take a 'walk on the wild side'. That's terrible! They should learn their places; what are they thinking of betting their lot, and that of their families, when they should be stuck in Brixton adding a splash of colour?
LOL! A colleague of mine - Brixton born and bred - did just that - moved out to the Kent coast and sold his family house in SW9 for a mint. Who could fucking blame him - being surrounded by weird middle class white liberals...
tarannau
23-03-2004, 10:50
well yes and no. When I moved to this street 20 years ago most houses that were owner occupied were lived in by black families (about half the street was/is HA). Now those families have almost all moved away and many of the houses have been split into flats, some for rent, some for sale. The private half of the street has largely white occupants now.
The feeling I get from my parents' generation is that they felt financially insecure and risk averse. Those 30s semis in the suburbs with a garden seemed a much safer bet than taking over more challenging modernisation jobs (and potential money pits) in the centre. My parents apparently didn't want to overstretch themselves by buying a 'risky' house on the edge of Clapham Common rather than a marginally cheaper one in Mitcham many years ago. I suspect they made the wrong financial decision...
:o
I would suspect that long term council tenancies and right-to-buy may have added and levelled the playing field somewhat. But Ern's impression of a burgeoning, successful immigrant landlord class seems somewhat at odds with my experience.
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 10:54
The feeling I get from my parents' generation is that they felt financially insecure and risk averse. Those 30s semis in the suburbs with a garden seemed a much safer bet than taking over more challenging modernisation jobs (and potential money pits) in the centre. My parents apparently didn't want to overstretch themselves by buying a 'risky' house on the edge of Clapham Common rather than a marginally cheaper one in Mitcham many years ago. I suspect they made the wrong financial decision...
:o
I would suspect that long term council tenancies and right-to-buy may have added and levelled the playing field somewhat. But Ern's impression of a burgeoning, successful immigrant landlord class seems somewhat at odds with my experience.
Those 30s semis in the suburbs are worth, what, £200-300,000 now? You seem to be down on your parents for not doing well enough.
Right-to-buy has NOT levelled any playing field - what are you a Thatcherite? RTB is one of the biggest disasters this country has ever seen.
Your impression of a downtrodden, exploited immigrant class belongs in your flowery imagination btw. Look at Spitalfields.
I personally just dont like the way Brixton seems to be getting more and more of a white middle class place, and I dont want to be assosiated with that.
I think this attitude is quite widespread. My girlfriend occassionally gets shouted or hissed at in the streets by people (young women usually) who look poor and black. Especially when she's pushing the baby around.
When I push the baby around I don't get that because it's always cute to see men with babies. :)
Anyway, it's not the end of the world, but there's clearly some bad feeling. But we can't help being white and middle class so neither of us are going to apologise. And I'm sure we have an easier time than any working class black people who live in my small home town on the south coast.
isvicthere?
23-03-2004, 11:01
Even if this is true, nothing is permanent. Everything is temporary. It is not the end of the world. There are much more urgent and important things for the pessimists to be wringing their hands about.
:)
Have you any idea how pompous you sound? "The pessimists" indeed! So anyone who does not share your apparent dream of a brave new world of "progress" where "young professionals" can sip cappuccino without being troubled by the irksome presence of dwellers in social housing is some sort of despicable low life, deserving of nothing but contempt?
I really don't believe I'm alone when I say that this is how you come across.
tarannau
23-03-2004, 11:04
Right-to-buy has NOT levelled any playing field - what are you a Thatcherite? RTB is one of the biggest disasters this country has ever seen.
RTB is a disaster, but on your terms it has levelled the playing field - it's allowed those West Indian families to sell up and leave the area when perhaps they wouldn't have been able to do so before.
I'm not down on my parents at all - they made the best decisons they could have at the time. What I am saying is that they - like most other hard working immigrant families - were perhaps not best placed to benefit from the boom in property prices.
tarannau, no I wouldn't identify a significant landlord class.
Inevitably some of the Windrush families were more financially successful than others, so some were owners here while others were still in coldwater slums. But don't forget that the 70s & early 80s were a time of flight away from the inner cities towards suburbs and hinterland newtowns.There were very good reasons for that, with quality of life being at the top, as well as financial insecurity in an era & area of very high unemployment. Selling a house in Brixton during the late 70s era of corrugated iron voids, sus and squats or post-uprising early 80s was hard because few people with choices wanted to live here. I've said before I think the great GLC giveaway (86?) kickstarted the repopulation process and contributed hugely to regeneration. Prior to that happening it wasn't at all obvious that the innercities had much QoL to offer in any forseeable future.
Their decision may look financially unwise at this distance, but money isn't everything.
edit I've just seen your last, posted while I was writing this; now I understand a bit better what you were meaning.
Ern, I think you'll find that those people's experiences should be discounted: they don't fit in with the trustafarians' ideas of what black people - you know, the ones from 'edgy' 'black' areas - should be like! I bet some of them don't even smoke ganja!
You and ern really have some bizarre ideas about what people who post here are actually like. Maybe you should come meet some of us for a drink sometime, I think you'll be surprised.
Despite all the showboating going on, there's some good points being bandied about here, although I find it strange how people seem keen to lump people into big homogeneous piles.
Have you any idea how pompous you sound? "The pessimists" indeed! So anyone who does not share your apparent dream of a brave new world of "progress" where "young professionals" can sip cappuccino without being troubled by the irksome presence of dwellers in social housing is some sort of despicable low life, deserving of nothing but contempt?
I really don't believe I'm alone when I say that this is how you come across.
What you describe is not my 'dream'. I don't even like cappuccino.
Like most (I think) I want to see much much more affordable social housing, not just locally but across the country generally. Hey, I would love to have a chance of getting one!
I just don't think that Brixton, and the cultural diversity that makes it such an interesting place to live, is going to suddenly die overnight as others seem to imply.
I don't believe that black people are being disproportionately pushed out of the area to make room for middle class whites either. I do know that plenty of blacks - the siblings of my partner are prime examples - aspire to move out to places like Thornton Heath, Norwood etc by getting professional jobs through tertiary education.
And good for them too! They have seen the crap their parents went through! My partner's mum became an owner occupier by buying her house off Coldharbour Lane and paid for it by spending 30 odd years cleaning office toilets.
I'd love to see certain posters on here tell her children to their faces that buying your home is wrong.
Pompous? Me? Okay, if you say so!
But that is not as pompous as the risible lament that gentrification (I fucking LOVE that word!) is ruining the street vibe from the inverted snob (invariably WHITE - oh the irony!) brigade, pal!
Despite all the showboating going on, there's some good points being bandied about here, although I find it strange how people seem keen to lump people into big homogeneous piles.
It's hard to talk about demographic changes without doing that. It'd help if people worked on the assumption that regular posters here are reasonable people and didn't put the worst possible gloss on slightly loose language.
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 11:48
What you describe is not my 'dream'. I don't even like cappuccino.
Like most (I think) I want to see much much more affordable social housing, not just locally but across the country generally. Hey, I would love to have a chance of getting one!
I just don't think that Brixton, and the cultural diversity that makes it such an interesting place to live, is going to suddenly die overnight as others seem to imply.
I don't believe that black people are being disproportionately pushed out of the area to make room for middle class whites either. I do know that plenty of blacks - the siblings of my partner are prime examples - aspire to move out to places like Thornton Heath, Norwood etc by getting professional jobs through tertiary education.
And good for them too! They have seen the crap their parents went through! My partner's mum became an owner occupier by buying her house off Coldharbour Lane and paid for it by spending 30 odd years cleaning office toilets.
I'd love to see certain posters on here tell her children to their faces that buying your home is wrong.
Pompous? Me? Okay, if you say so!
But that is not as pompous as the risible lament that gentrification (I fucking LOVE that word!) is ruining the street vibe from the inverted snob (invariably WHITE - oh the irony!) brigade, pal!
On the money, that post. Nice one. Say no more.
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 11:54
On the money, that post. Nice one. Say no more.Does that mean you're going to fuck off now?
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 11:59
Does that mean you're going to fuck off now?
If my presence here annoys you then no.
These forums would be bland without a bit of showboating. ;)
If people could keep their posting styles to actually expressing their genuine feelings rather than stirring then this thread would have flowed much better. It's full of presumption about what people imagine other people mean.
This disruption has mainly been initiated by Ernesto. Honestly Ernesto I won't tolerate your deliberate trolls in here and nasty humour.
To answer your question honestly about this:
I said:
"Brixton will become a pale (in more ways than one) imitatation of itself"
Ask around Ernie. Many, many people, both black, white or whatever have noticed both the blanding out of Brixton's character and sidelining of the needs of many in the local black and poorer general community. This is not my liberal nostagia or something. This is what many people think here. It really is. :)
Regarding Aurora - she may have used slightly clumsy words - said something in a hurry like you would in conversation - but her point is perfectly understandable and valid.
And it is simply this: After years of being in very racially-mixed venues/environments in Brixton - which was normal and un-commented on - it now feels wrong and weird to sit in some central Brixton venues and find then full of conservative-looking white people.
I think it's perfectly OK of Aurora to say she finds that a bit strange and wonders what it means for the area.
:)
big homogeneous piles.
I don't want to derail the thread, but I should point out that there's nothing more uncomfortable than big, homogeneous piles.
;)
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 12:02
What did you mean - 'paler in more ways than one'?
Did you include yourself in this equation?
What did you mean - 'paler in more ways than one'?
Did you include yourself in this equation?
What he means is
- less interesting
- more white people.
Get back to showboating; this is tedious nit-picking.
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 12:06
This thread reminds me of white 'travellers' moaning about how the beach is full of 'tourists'. :(
- less interesting
Why are white people less interesting than black? :confused:
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 12:07
What he means is
- less interesting
- more white people.
Get back to showboating; this is tedious nit-picking.
He's whiter than me! :confused:
(and a lot less interesting) (joke)
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 12:08
- less interesting
Why are white people less interesting than black? :confused:
I think they mean in a secret stache of National Geographic magazines in father's study kind of way.
Bonfirelight
23-03-2004, 12:08
This thread reminds me of white 'travellers' moaning about how the beach is full of 'tourists'. :(
you just dont get it, its only cool if you're the only white guy on the beach.
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 12:11
you just dont get it, its only cool if you're the only white guy on the beach.
As long as the black 'guys' don't get too pushy with their sales techniques...
Bonfirelight
23-03-2004, 12:12
i bought a wicked watch and a pair of sunglasses in benidorm a few years back.
10euros or something. still works too.
I also agree with this:
"I do know that plenty of blacks... aspire to move out to places like Thornton Heath, Norwood etc..."
It's a many sided story - that's why I said in the first post at the top of this thread "something big's going on".
:)
miss minnie
23-03-2004, 12:27
Rather than focusing the entire thread on me, its obvious I dont like anyone and its not the first time I've ben invited to leave Brixton on these boards,
Perhaps it might be more relevant to ask why a new venue such as the Lounge had not one black face in it. Perhaps it was just a one off, and perhaps as you all say, I am a racist for caring, but it troubles me that somewhere new in Railton Rd ffs, should seem white only. :(
i've been in the lounge at least once most weeks recently. the proportion of white to black varies each time. bit like picking 4 coloured balls out of a bag of 8 - sometimes you will pick all one colour, sometimes all the other, sometimes a mix of the two.
i have never been in the the lounge when the clientele has been either all white or all black. there's usually a mixture of skin colours in there. same goes for sw9, the albert, woolworths and sainsburys.
i've been in the lounge when i was the only female once, but i couldn't then say that their clientele is primarily male.
aurora, i'm not having a deep dig here, 'cos i think you've said many good things in this forum, but perhaps a few more visits to some of these seemingly white establishments would be fair. i think you just happened to pull all the white balls out of the bag that day.
perhaps a little urban research is called for? i'll volunteer to while away a day sipping coffee, juice (and wine) at the lounge with clipboard in hand measuring the ethnic breakdown of the clientele. might have to visit more than once on different days at different times in order to get a fair sample. anyone care to join me? ;) :D
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 12:30
iperhaps a little urban research is called for? i'll volunteer to while away a day sipping coffee, juice (and wine) at the lounge with clipboard in hand measuring the ethnic breakdown of the clientele. Here comes my 19th ethnic breakdown. ;)
Ernesto - re-read the thread. I've explained honestly what I meant by the "pale imitation" comment.
I would say that Brixton is becoming less interesting and also becoming whiter.
But no one has said except you that this means black people are more interesting than white.
Personally I like characters - both black or white or whatever. But it is both the characters and the character that are leaving or being left out of Brixton. And those characters, of whichever colour are mainly being replaced with conservative young professionals.
Also me and most of my friends are poor. This is happening to poor people. So we notice.
Tis true I'm afraid.
:)
You and ern really have some bizarre ideas about what people who post here are actually like. Maybe you should come meet some of us for a drink sometime, I think you'll be surprised.
I wasn't necessarily having a go at Urbanites per se, more at the white middle class liberals who think that, by moving to Brixton, putting their hair in dreads and smoking weed (or adopting the 'alternative' lifestyle in whatever other way), they're making a big contribution to Brixton, and are part of it, but that anyone alse coming in doesn't belong. I've met them, and they're knobs.
Equally, I know some decent middle class white people who live in Brixton and do a hell of a lot for the local community.
I agree that every area should have affordable housing, so people aren't priced out of an area, but I don't think people should get so precious about insisting that an area must remain the same, especially when, in doing so, they express what appear to be thinly veiled racist sentiments (such as complaining that an area is becoming too 'pale').
Lounge is pretty OK in IMHO. But it's not a cheap caff.
I wasn't necessarily having a go at Urbanites per se, more at the white middle class liberals who think that, by moving to Brixton, putting their hair in dreads and smoking weed (or adopting the 'alternative' lifestyle in whatever other way), they're making a big contribution to Brixton, and are part of it, but that anyone alse coming in doesn't belong. I've met them, and they're knobs.
I've only been in Brixton for just over a year, but I've yet to meet anyone like you describe. Maybe they exist, maybe not. But you seem to be unfairly stereotyping a lot of people.
I've only been in Brixton for just over a year, but I've yet to meet anyone like you describe. Maybe they exist, maybe not. But you seem to be unfairly stereotyping a lot of people.
I don't get it? Who have I stereotyped?
Someone said:
"But that is not as pompous as the risible lament that gentrification (I fucking LOVE that word!) is ruining the street vibe from the inverted snob (invariably WHITE - oh the irony!) brigade, pal! "
I see your point. That's funny. LOL. But being serious, the opinion that gentrification (benefiting the monied, as opposed to genuine inclusive regeneration for everyone) is damaging Brixton is widespread among black and white. It's just not popular with the wealthy here.
I wasn't necessarily having a go at Urbanites per se, more at the white middle class liberals who think that, by moving to Brixton, putting their hair in dreads and smoking weed (or adopting the 'alternative' lifestyle in whatever other way), they're making a big contribution to Brixton, and are part of it, but that anyone alse coming in doesn't belong.
What's white people with dreads got to do with anything?
That observation is about as meaningful as commenting on black people with punk style red hair.
Cultural mix and match? Bring it on as far as I'm concerned, but keep the stereotypes at the door.
I don't get it? Who have I stereotyped?
No, you don't get it do you.
What's white people with dreads got to do with anything?
That observation is about as meaningful as commenting on black people with punk style red hair.
Cultural mix and match? Bring it on as far as I'm concerned, but keep the stereotypes at the door.
I didn't say that everyone white bloke with dreads has that attitude, but that the ones that do get on my tits. I dislike those who think that having more people with an 'alternative' look or lifestyle makes Brixton a better place. That's just inverted snobbery.
No, you don't get it do you.
Come on, seriously, who've I stereotyped?
"Alternative looks" are fine. Alternative minds are even better. :)
This is by far the most interesting thread on the Brixton forum yet (imo). I don't often post here, mainly because I don't have internet access at home, but often because it seems that I don't share the same views as many of the other regular posters and feel a bit of a gatecrasher. Neither do I like slanging matches, not clever, not funny, boring. I've lived in Brixton for over a decade now though and, like anywhere and everywhere else, the area is (must!) undergoing change and some of it is good and some of it bad - both interchangable depending on your point of view!
As for "gentrification" (I hate that word and on this forum it's become a cliche), if it means more people with some money to spend coming into the area then surely that's good? On the other side of the coin, "ghetto-isation" (if there is such a word) is not something to aim for. Therefore, in a really culturally and socially diverse area, there is room for a wide range of people, not just one group.
There's too much "middle-class" thumping going on, as if it's always their fault for what happens to poor working-class people who are incapable of having any responsibility for their own lives. Example: one of the worst things to happen to Brixton (again imo which is not shared by the young, black and white working class residents) is McDonalds - definitely not here by demand of young white professionals.
My "friend", who thinks she is funny, has just read this over my shoulder and is now singing "I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony..."
Alright, she is funny. :)
Ern, I think you'll find that those people's experiences should be discounted: they don't fit in with the trustafarians' ideas of what black people - you know, the ones from 'edgy' 'black' areas - should be like! I bet some of them don't even smoke ganja!
You are implying that people on here complaining about gentrification are "trustafarians".
... a better place...
There's an awful lot of people live round here and for the vast majority the Lounge, dreadlocks and alternative this that or the other have no relevance at all.
Brixton Hatter
23-03-2004, 12:53
I think it's undeniable that Brixton's culture is "blanding out" - we live in a capitalist world after all and gentrification (unfortunately) is the logical conclusion. All these arguments have been on here before.
I'm not sure that this is totally about black/white - maybe it's more about rich/poor. I think both Ernie and Tarranau are right - there are black families who've left the area & made money on houses, just in the same way that there are many black (and/or poor) people who've been forced out of the area by rising rents. I would *guess* the second group is larger than the first. Perhaps the inevitable conclusion is that the area becomes more middle class (whether white or black). The only people left (who can't afford to own or rent) would be those left in council accomodation.
So if this means the culture is blanding out, the question is, what are you (we) going to do about it? Do we care enough to do anything about it? I think so. There's a lot of people on here with very strong opinions which suggests to me that some people WOULD be willing to get off their arses and do something. We'd be stronger organised together, than as a group of people trading arguments across a bulletin board. A "U75/Brixton local cultural action group" to discuss the situation? Whatever. Concrete proposals are needed (such as the suggestion of providing better opportunities for local people to own/run stalls/businesses etc). Maybe we can start generating some ideas here instead of slagging each other off....
:)
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 12:54
"Alternative looks" are fine. Alternative minds are even better. :)
Now, paleface - have I made your thread more interesting or not?
You probably owe me a drink for this.
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 12:56
So if this means the culture is blanding out, the question is, what are you (we) going to do about it? :)
Why don't the 'alternatives' go out into the streets this coming April and demand that the black youths riot on their behalf?
That should put off a few yuppies at least....
:cool:
Brixton Hatter
23-03-2004, 12:58
"Alternative looks" are fine. Alternative minds are even better. :)
Amen to that! It's your attitude, beliefs and actions, not your appearance, your class or your colour, that marks your contribution to the local community.
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 12:59
Why don't the 'alternatives' go out into the streets this coming April and demand that the black youths riot on their behalf?
That should put off a few yuppies at least....
:cool: BH asks a valid question in a well-considered post and you respond with more of this sneering garbage. And you wonder why people don't take you seriously? It's a waste of time.
"Alternative looks" are fine. Alternative minds are even better. :)
Is that what you've got?! :D
You are implying that people on here complaining about gentrification are "trustafarians".
I'm not saying that, and if I gave that impression, I'm sorry. I , too, am against 'gentrification' if, by that term, you mean that people are priced out of an area. It's just that some posters' smug tones rub me up the wrong way.
Amen to that! It's your attitude, beliefs and actions, not your appearance, your class or your colour, that marks your contribution to the local community.
Yeah, but that's not how Hatboy thinks. I remember him slagging off some girls from Clapham because they didn't look alternative enough for him, on another thread. It is that sort of narrow-minded attitude that pisses me off about the self-righteous and self-appointed 'Defenders of Brixton'.
By 'alternative mind' do you mean shallow and judgemental inverse snob, Hatboy? Also, remember that he doesn't want to see Brixton become too 'pale.'
Brixton Hatter
23-03-2004, 13:11
As for "gentrification" (I hate that word and on this forum it's become a cliche), if it means more people with some money to spend coming into the area then surely that's good?
Hello Baub :) No, I don't think it's necessarily good if people with money to spend come into the area. Why? Because it makes property prices rise and rents rise. Developers make money out of selling new housing to wealthy people. They are not (generally) providing any social housing.
Where do these newly arrived, wealthy people* spend their money? For those wealthy enough to buy new housing, I'd suggest they're shopping in places like Tesco, Sainsbury's, Marks and Spencer, Currys. The Living Bar. Croydon even. I suggest they'd probably avoid the market, Eco, the fish stalls, the Phoenix, the Albert, Michael's Meats, and other local businesses. This situation doesn't help the local area (ok, it provides *some* jobs), it just puts money into the pockets of the already rich, and denies that same wealth to the local community.
:)
*Not necessarily referring to ALL wealthy people
I'm not saying that, and if I gave that impression, I'm sorry.
What else could it have meant? As I said, I don't know anyone who lives up to your "trustafarian" stereotype. Maybe you should come and meet some of us for a drink sometime.
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 13:12
It's just that some posters' smug tones rub me up the wrong way.Smug? What comments? In what way are they smug?
What else could it have meant? As I said, I don't know anyone who lives up to your "trustafarian" stereotype. Maybe you should come and meet some of us for a drink sometime.
I do know people who live up to that stereotype, to a greater or lesser extent.
I'm sure I'd enjoy a drink with you and some of the other Urbanites.
... a better place...
There's an awful lot of people live round here and for the vast majority the Lounge, dreadlocks and alternative this that or the other have no relevance at all.
This is also something I've tried to get across in this forum. :)
I do know people who live up to that stereotype, to a greater or lesser extent.
So you do admit that you were stereotyping? AFAIK, no one who posts here is like that.
I'm sure I'd enjoy a drink with you and some of the other Urbanites.
Whats an Urbanite? I'm just someone who posts on this and other bulletin boards to pass the time.
Keep an eye on here then for drink threads or come along to the next Offline night.
Well this seems fairly smug to me, for example:
Questions of this sort are completely irrelevant and a red herring. It is pointless to even consider them. The area has a unique mix of races, class and cultures and this sort of gross simplification does no-one any good.
Oh and well done fanta -- you just lost the argument. :rolleyes:
Now, paleface - have I made your thread more interesting or not?
You probably owe me a drink for this.
I think I probably do you fucking cunt!! ;) :rolleyes:
Seriously tho, challenging opinions are welcome. But deliberate wind-ups tend not to work in this forum. They do just abuse people who are generally trying to be sincere. Please respect that in future Ernesto.
:)
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 13:20
Where do these newly arrived, wealthy people* spend their money? For those wealthy enough to buy new housing, I'd suggest they're shopping in places like Tesco, Sainsbury's, Marks and Spencer, Currys. The Living Bar. Croydon even.
How long has the M+S been in Brixton? Its been there a lot longer than the arrivistes of either type (the slummers and the boojies). Its been in Brixton before you were even born in that hospital in Godalming.
Have you been to Croydon shopping centre? I haven't seen many 'wealthy people' there buying their baubles (or whatever it is the rich buy)
So you do admit that you were stereotyping? AFAIK, no one who posts here is like that.
Whats an Urbanite? I'm just someone who posts on this and other bulletin boards to pass the time.
Keep an eye on here then for drink threads or come along to the next Offline night.
I wasn't stereotyping, but there is a stereotype of a 'trustafarian' and there are people who live up to that stereotype. I don't know if anyone here lives up to that stereotype entirely. ;)
I may well come to the next 'Offline' if I'm around.
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 13:21
As for "gentrification" (I hate that word and on this forum it's become a cliche), The term itself is not at all a cliche. What is a cliche is the way that anyone who expresses concern about the detrimental effects of gentrification is misrepresented as a hypocritcal, 'smug', 'nimby', white, dreadlocked trustafarian, whereas in truth, as Blagsta says, no-one is actually anything like that very Daily-Mailish stereotype.
It's so easy to fabricate cliched rubbish about 'travellers' complaining about tourists. It has no bearing whatsoever on Brixton or its residents. No more than the shit the Mail makes up.
Smug? What comments? In what way are they smug?
Nobody could accuse you of being smug IntoStella, and I hereby challenge any rascal that has the impudence to imply such a slur on your excellent reputation to a dual to the death.
I'll horsewhip the cad on the steps of his club!
I wasn't stereotyping, but there is a stereotype of a 'trustafarian' and there are people who live up to that stereotype. I don't know if anyone here lives up to that stereotype entirely. ;)
You were stereotyping, whether you meant to or not.
I may well come to the next 'Offline' if I'm around.
Come and introduce yourself.
Yeah, but that's not how Hatboy thinks. I remember him slagging off some girls from Clapham because they didn't look alternative enough for him, on another thread. It is that sort of narrow-minded attitude that pisses me off about the self-righteous and self-appointed 'Defenders of Brixton'.
By 'alternative mind' do you mean shallow and judgemental inverse snob, Hatboy? Also, remember that he doesn't want to see Brixton become too 'pale.'
If you re-read the threads and other stuff I say you'll see that I like individuals. If they can manage a silly hat and afew jokes (like I just about do) that's fine. If they can go further and be truly different thinkers that's great too.
I'll admit I don't like people with no humour, or who aspire to be drab. I don't understand them. Sorry.
:)
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 13:23
It's so easy to fabricate cliched rubbish about 'travellers' complaining about tourists. It has no bearing whatsoever on Brixton or its residents. No more than the shit the Mail makes up.
What the hell as irony got to do with the Daily Fucking Mail?
The travellers/tourists analogy is perfect for this debate, and you have been found muttering at the back of the queue for the banana pancakes in Koh Samui.
You were stereotyping, whether you meant to or not.
Come and introduce yourself.
I WASN'T.
Will do.
The travellers/tourists analogy is perfect for this debate, and you have been found muttering at the back of the queue for the banana pancakes in Koh Samui.
How so? When you don't even have the balls to come and meet any of us. You just prefer to keep to your lazy stereotypes.
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 13:26
Well this seems fairly smug to me, for example: Why? Is it because you have a problem with women expressing a point of view with confidence and conviction? Want me to get down off my hind legs? I very much doubt I would enjoy a drink with you. :rolleyes:
If you re-read the threads and other stuff I say you'll see that I like individuals. If they can manage a silly hat and afew jokes (like I just about do) that's fine. If they can go further and be truly different thinkers that's great too.
I'll admit I don't like people with no humour, or who aspire to be drab. I don't understand them. Sorry.
:)
how can you tell if somone aspires to be drab? Do you find that out from talking to them, or decide based on what they look like?
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 13:28
How so? When you don't even have the balls to come and meet any of us. You just prefer to keep to your lazy stereotypes.
'Us'? Now who's stereotyping all the London posters into some homogenous bubble. I converse on these boards with more London posters than your 'us'.
You know what I mean.
[edit]
By "us" I mean the people on this thread that you seem to have massively wrong assumptions about.
Athos - You can't like everyone darling, can you? I guess you know by trying to get along with them and then getting bored. And then you try again. And then you don't anymore.
I have to go and do some urgent knitting, excuse me. :)
Please shift the personal spat off this thread Blagsta, Ernesto etc. Or try and keep the subject of the thread in each post otherwise it's gonna be impenetrable should some interesting new people ever deign to look at this crap! :)
Brixton Hatter
23-03-2004, 13:32
How long has the M+S been in Brixton? Its been there a lot longer than the arrivistes of either type (the slummers and the boojies). Its been in Brixton before you were even born in that hospital in Godalming.
Yes I know that. The *point* was that if people shop there, there is less benefit to the local community than if people shopped at locally owned businesses. Not that people shouldn't shop there, though. And I was born at the Elephant by the way
Have you been to Croydon shopping centre? I haven't seen many 'wealthy people' there buying their baubles (or whatever it is the rich buy)
Sorry, I was actually referring to the out of town shopping places around Croydon, IKEA, PC World etc, the *point* again being that wealthy people are spending their money in places owned by other wealthy people.
Ernie, why dont you engage constructively in this debate rather than picking at minor points in people's posts? I am sure you are more than capable of constructing a reasoned argument. :)
Why? Is it because you have a problem with women expressing a point of view with confidence and conviction? Want me to get down off my hind legs? I very much doubt I would enjoy a drink with you. :rolleyes:
I don't have a problem with women expressing a point of view: my wife is the most strident woman I know. I am annoyed by smug and dismissive comments like yours, though.
I was also annoyed when you accused me of being pro-gentrification but ignored my reply in which I asked you to back that up.
It also annoys me when people misrepresent what I say to score cheap points.
Am I supposed to be bothered by the fact that you wouldn't enjoy drinking with me? Pathetic. :D
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 13:39
I don't have a problem with women expressing a point of view: my wife is the most strident woman I know. I am annoyed by smug and dismissive comments like yours, though.Before you rolled up we had already had this discussion in this forum about 342 times, on various threads, and I can safely say that it is not only pointless trying to pin down a Utopian Brixton that will never exist but that it always ends up EXACTLY where we are now. So why bother taking the utterly pointless detour? It also annoys me when people misrepresent what I say to score cheap points.Then don't do it to other people, as you have been all along. :rolleyes: I am up to here with your Daily Mail stereotypes of people who you know absolutely nothing about.
Athos - You can't like everyone darling, can you? I guess you know by trying to get along with them and then getting bored. And then you try again. And then you don't anymore.
Oh, so you'd tried to get on with the girls in that picture, and realised you didn't like them? Or do you mean that you've tried to get on with 'their kind' and didn't like them, so you wouldn't bother getting to know them as individuals? Face it, you're judgemental: you assess (and dismiss) people based on their looks (in particular whether they look sufficiently 'alternative'). Perhaps that is what you resent about these 'yuppie' types invading Brixton?
Please shift the personal spat off this thread Blagsta, Ernesto etc. Or try and keep the subject of the thread in each post otherwise it's gonna be impenetrable should some interesting new people ever deign to look at this crap! :)
Sorry. But it is kind of relevant - as I said, ern loves to make sweeping generalisations about people without knowing anything about them. Maybe if he met some of the people involved in this debate, he'd be less antagonistic.
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 13:40
you're judgemental: That's rich.
Someone said:
"Ernie, why dont you engage constructively in this debate rather than picking at minor points in people's posts? I am sure you are more than capable of constructing a reasoned argument."
Yeah, you MUST try and do this Ernie, and everyone, and me - OK.
Seriously, deliberate, persistent wind-ups do not work in this forum. It abuses people's sincerlty.
:)
That's rich.
Show me precisely who I have judged purely on the basis of their looks (as Hatboy has done), and where.
Before you rolled up we had already had this discussion in this forum about 342 times, on various threads, and I can safely say that it is not only pointless trying to pin down a Utopian Brixton that will never exist but that it always ends up EXACTLY where we are now. So why bother taking the utterly pointless detour? Then don't do it to other people, as you have been all along. :rolleyes: I am up to here with your Daily Mail stereotypes of people who you know absolutely nothing about.
You didn't say that the issue has already been debated, though, you just dismissed it, out of hand.
Precisely who have I misrepresented, and where?
I'm not as familiar with the Daily Mail; stereotypes as you, as I never read it.
That's rich.And you still haven't backed up your description of me as 'pro-gentrification'.
Oh, so you'd tried to get on with the girls in that picture, and realised you didn't like them? Or do you mean that you've tried to get on with 'their kind' and didn't like them, so you wouldn't bother getting to know them as individuals? Face it, you're judgemental: you assess (and dismiss) people based on their looks (in particular whether they look sufficiently 'alternative'). Perhaps that is what you resent about these 'yuppie' types invading Brixton?
I've explained that I like visual things and people. I also have friends who just look completely ordinary but say funny or clever or insightful things. I like people who have a minority perspective - gay, beggar, painter, rapper, whatever. People who can teach me stuff. I prefer them all to conservative young professionals.
:)
Streathamite
23-03-2004, 14:00
What the hell as irony got to do with the Daily Fucking Mail?
The travellers/tourists analogy is perfect for this debate, and you have been found muttering at the back of the queue for the banana pancakes in Koh Samui.
crap! WHAT - precisely - are you saying ern? That ALL who've not lived in the area for 80 years are middle class tourists (ie like you)? If you knew IS, you'd know she's lived a long time, and is as genuine a part of the community as anyone I know?
Or are you really basing tourists on skin colour? class? Well, what then? You've hardly backed up your point here, have you.
chegrimandi
23-03-2004, 14:04
'I prefer them all to conservative young professionals.'
I know 2 people who recently have purchased houses in 'central' Brixton who would fit into the category above of conservative young professionals....I would tend to agree with most of the general comments about Brixton getting gentrified/yuppied but isn't this the case for pretty much the whole of London......?
*just seen my post count.....the devils number! lol*
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 14:09
The travellers/tourists analogy is perfect for this debate, and you have been found muttering at the back of the queue for the banana pancakes in Koh Samui.I missed that one before. Thanks for pointing it out, Jezza. Ernie, you have clearly gone absolutely out of your mind. What the bleeding buggering fuck are you talking about? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: If you knew IS, you'd know she's lived a long time,Alas, too long, perhaps. ;)
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 14:13
Of course Brixton was all fields not so long ago.
Of course Brixton was all fields not so long ago.
Nah, it was a white middle class suburb ;)
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 14:16
Nah, it was a white middle class suburb ;)
Indeed home to a well-established Marks and Spencers and a family of circus-artistes who set up a garden-gnome business....;)
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 14:16
And you still haven't backed up your description of me as 'pro-gentrification'.You systematically dismiss and misrepresent people who are concerned about gentrificaton as smug, white, dreadlocked trustafarians. So you are clearly part of the problem, not part of the solution. And you haven't backed up your claims to be anti-gentrification or non-right wing. All the other posts of yours I've seen have struck me as being pretty conservative.
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 14:21
Who wants to conserve what?
Streathamite
23-03-2004, 14:22
Indeed home to a well-established Marks and Spencers and a family of circus-artistes who set up a garden-gnome business....;)
now that WAS funny!
oh come on, you all got that one, no?
Who wants to conserve what?
http://www.marqueesolutions.co.uk/images/c11-john-major.jpg
We want to conserve what is best about Brixton
You systematically dismiss and misrepresent people who are concerned about gentrificaton as smug, white, dreadlocked trustafarians. So you are clearly part of the problem, not part of the solution. And you haven't backed up your claims to be anti-gentrification or non-right wing. All the other posts of yours I've seen have struck me as being pretty conservative.
You've ignored my last three posts. Where precisely have I done this?
I don't agree with you, so you've decided I'm part of the problem, have you?! :D
I don't need to back up my 'claims' to be anti-gentrification or non-right wing, you need to back up your claims to the contrary!
I'm far from conservative, and I'm surprised that you've found most of my posts to be so. (So surprised, in fact, that I think you've invented that to direct attention away from the questions I put to you.)
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 14:30
Elderly maids on unicycles....
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 14:31
On U75 there should be a new Godwin's Law subsection about the Daily Mail.
Resist Turning This Into One Big Personal Bitch please people.
Keep To The Subject.
Grrr. :(
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 14:49
Resist Turning This Into One Big Personal Bitch please people.
Keep To The Subject.
Grrr. :(Oh too late. I've got to go and get some money out of my huge trust fund to go and get my dreadlocks redone. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Ernie and Athos have done nothing but troll this thread all along. There isn't a debate. It's a pathetic state of affairs where we can no longer possibly discuss these issues constructively. If you allow that to continue then don't blame other posters if you don't have any discussions here worth looking at.
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 14:51
and you have been found muttering at the back of the queue for the banana pancakes in Koh Samui.Answer the question. What the fuck was this about??
You systematically dismiss and misrepresent people who are concerned about gentrificaton as smug, white, dreadlocked trustafarians.Well, I've got the dreadlocks, so all I need now is a few trust funds.
Anyone care to help out? Being a trustafarian sounds like fun!
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 14:52
Add a subsection to the U75 Godwin's Law for the word 'Troll' as well.
IntoStella
23-03-2004, 14:54
Anyone care to help out? Being a trustafarian sounds like fun!You could be a serverfundafarian, maybe. ;)
Well, I've got the dreadlocks, so all I need now is a few trust funds.
Anyone care to help out? Being a trustafarian sounds like fun!
But I didn't say that every white man with dreads is a trustafarian, did I? That's why I keep asking IntoStella to back up her comments. She won't though, yet demands Ernesto to answer her questions!
But I didn't say that every white man with dreads is a trustafarian, did I? That's why I keep asking IntoStella to back up her comments. She won't though, yet demands Ernesto to answer her questions!
You implied that everyone on here against gentrification is a "trustafarian". And however much you deny it, you are stereotyping. And most of your posts do come across as fairly conservative, no matter what you think you come across like.
You implied that everyone on here against gentrification is a "trustafarian". And however much you deny it, you are stereotyping. And most of your posts do come across as fairly conservative, no matter what you think you come across like.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Brixton Hatter
23-03-2004, 18:20
...does anyone have any ideas on how to combat the blandification of Brixton culture?
Here's a few (apologies if they're a bit obvious, but maybe you've got some better ideas!):
- Avoid drinking in blandified places like the Living Room (or Atlantic 66 :D )
- Drink in and support proper pubs like the Effra, the Trinity, the Albert etc
- Avoid the big supermarkets as far as possible; support the market and locally-owned businesses instead
- Hassle your local ward councillor about social housing and council property sell offs
- Have your input into things like the Brixton forum
- When your mates come to visit, take them somewhere locally that's interesting/different/unusual, surprise them & change their attitude to Brixton
- Visit and use local attractions like the Black Cultural Archives, the tate library, the 198 gallery etc
- Turn up to planning meetings, licensing committees etc and put your points across (whatever they may be)
- Be creative in your thinking... and when you have good idea, write to your ward councillor about it and hassle them to get it done. If they're not sympathetic, vote 'em out next year and get someone who is.
- Make an effort to talk to your neighbours, share info/gossip, talk about the local area
- Tell your friends about local issues, get them interested and get them involved
- Come up with constructive ideas and post them on this thread
- Blah blah blah and so on.......
Honestly, if some of you lot put the effort into your local community that you put into slagging each other off on these boards, I'm sure we would be living in a Brixton Utopia :D :rolleyes:
Love up :)
This thread is funny as fuck. LOL!
Hatboy, GUTTED that he hadn't got enough attention when he originally posted up his 'Sod all these bland new places. I couldn't give a flying fuck about any of them' comment has now at least got the attention he so craves.
I'm afraid, as much as Mr Lynch is an antagonistic cunt, his point about 'old Brixton' taking advantage and selling up is pure gold. Put it this way, most people would take the opportunity if they had the forethought to save their money as and when they could, got mortgages, watched their assets appreciate and flog them for a big profit regardless of their background I'm afraid. It's a natural instinct that supercedes any of this 'love of the community' speak IMHO. Honestly Hatboy, if you'd had a council house for years, had scrimped and saved, were given the right to buy it, bought it, and then watch it shoot up in value you're telling me you wouldn't be tempted?
Fuck, the policy may be wrong but the temptation would be too much for even the most community minded person if they found themselves in that situation...
I'm afraid 'gentrification' isn't exclusive to Brixton, and is a product of the capitalist system - the only way you're going to stop it happening in Brixton is via two routes:
1. National revolution and an overthrow of our current way of life (more likely)
2. Local revolution, 'Les Miserables' style - errect barricades on all key roads into town, buy several fuck off big red flags, and start rounding up the Borgeouis (Sorry, conservative young professionals) for the guillotining they so thoroughly deserve for robbing Brixton of it's character. :rolleyes: Maybe that's the answer, another round of rioting to scare them off so that property prices will crumble - FUCK, what a great solution that is :rolleyes:
My sentiments on the subject echo Fanta's earlier post (#70), just because Brixton is modernising itself (in line with how most of the country is modernising itself) doesn't mean that it hasn't got shitloads of character, and won't continue to have for as long as it exists.
I'd say that the attitude of people like Hatboy (and Aurora Green) is worse (in many ways) for Brixton than those of the dreaded 'young professionals' :eek: . It's self righteousness and inverse snobbery combined with the some of the shit prejudices of the 'moneyed' classes that prevent the integration of the rich and the poor. i.e. It's not JUST the fault of 'conservative young professionals' who you blame for everything and who's opinions are seemingly invalid just because they've got money... Have a fucking word with yourself.
Athos has come up with some very good comments on this thread but because he's not part of the 'conventional way of thinking' (i.e. the back-patting brigade who are essentially a tiny minority of Brixton), he's got pretty short shrift... for example:
Intostella - the old queen of the clique and 'oneup(wo)manship' ;) dives in to attack, but is roundly beaten and frankly ridiculed, is left with her usual 4 step defence
1. This has been all done before on the boards and I can't be arsed to go over the point again
2. I've lived round here for longer than you so your opinion is invalid
3. Can't you handle the fact that a WOMAN has an opinion, you must be a sexist
4. I'll ignore you now as you're obviously below me OR merely trolling
:p
Streathamite
23-03-2004, 18:48
I'd say that the attitude of people like Hatboy (and Aurora Green) is worse (in many ways) for Brixton than those of the dreaded 'young professionals' :eek: . It's self righteousness and inverse snobbery combined with the some of the shit prejudices of the 'moneyed' classes that prevent the integration of the rich and the poor. i.e. It's not JUST the fault of 'conservative young professionals' who you blame for everything and who's opinions are seemingly invalid just because they've got money... Have a fucking word with yourself.
:p
Hold it, I've stayed out of this thread, but that I can't let pass. I do feel you're misrepresenting both persons here. As (long standing) residents all they are saying is that they hope that the 'community' and local interests (especially those who haven't been able to acquire, sell up and thus benefit-and that IMO is a large majority) aren't sacrificed on the altar of commercial interests. That, IMo, is what hatboy was getting at, as Brixton's 'way of life' is part & parcel of that.
ernestolynch
23-03-2004, 19:07
What are the '100s of different reasons' then? Just name 20 if you want, loike.
Hold it, I've stayed out of this thread, but that I can't let pass. I do feel you're misrepresenting both persons here. As (long standing) residents all they are saying is that they hope that the 'community' and local interests (especially those who haven't been able to acquire, sell up and thus benefit-and that IMO is a large majority) aren't sacrificed on the altar of commercial interests. That, IMo, is what hatboy was getting at, as Brixton's 'way of life' is part & parcel of that.
I don't want Brixton sacrificed on the 'altar of commercial interests' either mate - but prices in Brixton have gone up as part of a wider problem with the 'free' market in London IMO, and not because of some conspiracy theory about flogging off Brixton to commercial interests.
Sometimes I reckon this 'lets save our community' discussion is merely a dressed up argument for 'haves vs have nots' or worse, a piece of utterly hypocrytical reverse racism.
Lets turn this round - imagine a village in the countryside, been a community there for years, and the government comes along and says they want to build a council estate on their doorstep - I'm pretty sure the current residents would be against it, but people like Hatboy etc (Sorry to single you out) would hate them for it as they'd be attempting to deprive people of council houses. So what this boils down to is a simple 'rich v poor' argument and nothing else, rather than this trumped up community spirit bollocks.
If people genuinely want to stop the erosion of the community stop going on about your dislike of 'pale, bland young professionals' because it makes you sound like seriously bitter human beings and has nothing constructive to add.
...does anyone have any ideas on how to combat the blandification of Brixton culture?
Here's a few (apologies if they're a bit obvious, but maybe you've got some better ideas!):
- Avoid drinking in blandified places like the Living Room (or Atlantic 66 :D )
- Drink in and support proper pubs like the Effra, the Trinity, the Albert etc
- Avoid the big supermarkets as far as possible; support the market and locally-owned businesses instead
- Hassle your local ward councillor about social housing and council property sell offs
- Have your input into things like the Brixton forum
- When your mates come to visit, take them somewhere locally that's interesting/different/unusual, surprise them & change their attitude to Brixton
- Visit and use local attractions like the Black Cultural Archives, the tate library, the 198 gallery etc
- Turn up to planning meetings, licensing committees etc and put your points across (whatever they may be)
- Be creative in your thinking... and when you have good idea, write to your ward councillor about it and hassle them to get it done. If they're not sympathetic, vote 'em out next year and get someone who is.
- Make an effort to talk to your neighbours, share info/gossip, talk about the local area
- Tell your friends about local issues, get them interested and get them involved
- Come up with constructive ideas and post them on this thread
- Blah blah blah and so on.......
Honestly, if some of you lot put the effort into your local community that you put into slagging each other off on these boards, I'm sure we would be living in a Brixton Utopia :D :rolleyes:
Love up :)
Thanks for that very helpful post BH. I thought I didn't do much, but I do all of those things and more so that's not too bad. Not just moaning on here eh!
You are obviously against whatever you imagine me to be Domski. I don't know you atall. Some stuff you and my other critics say on me I'll see your point on. I can see how I appear to some on here. But my opinions are based on listening to and talking to all sorts round here - from council officers to homeless or whoever.
But what everyone reading this has to understand is that there is widespread opinion in Brixton that many improvements are excluding, are superficial, are just for the monied, are not fair, are NOT honest.....
Some changes have been positive for all I hope and "change" in itself is inevitable and cannot be stopped. All I want is real, inclusive change.
And many people, many very credible people, many people who don't bother with this forum are voicing concerns about change in Brixton that are similar to those I've expressed.
If you can't see it or don't hear it it isn't because I'm mad and you are sane. It's because you need to open your eyes and ears.
:)
:) I'm for inclusive change as well Hatboy
Can we agree on one thing though, having a continual go at the blandness and paleness ;) of people who've recently moved here achieves the square root of fuck all - I'm sure if you went into a council meeting and accused them of 'ethnic cleansing' you'd be ordered to get out.
The problem with these internet discussions is that there's not much "tone". Only words. It's very difficult to get a rounded picture of people and their opinions and easy to get wound up. Look for the deeper meaning and not just the politeness or lack of it or the absolutely literal meaning.
And seriously, I don't know who everyone else talks too, but the worries I have, if poorly expressed, are by no means mine alone.
People I talk to in the street seem to know what I'm on about. How come so much resistance here?
Maybe I should just leave u75. Many mates say "why do you bother". I keep hoping Brixton Forum will get more representative/in touch with Brixton. Maybe I should promote it more to people, but I still often want to say it isn't anything to do with me.
:( and :)
I reckon there are some pretty good arguments on here. Not to have the occasional barney, now that would be bland.
Streathamite
24-03-2004, 09:00
I don't want Brixton sacrificed on the 'altar of commercial interests' either mate - but prices in Brixton have gone up as part of a wider problem with the 'free' market in London IMO, and not because of some conspiracy theory about flogging off Brixton to commercial interests.
Sometimes I reckon this 'lets save our community' discussion is merely a dressed up argument for 'haves vs have nots' or worse, a piece of utterly hypocrytical reverse racism.
Lets turn this round - imagine a village in the countryside, been a community there for years, and the government comes along and says they want to build a council estate on their doorstep - I'm pretty sure the current residents would be against it, but people like Hatboy etc (Sorry to single you out) would hate them for it as they'd be attempting to deprive people of council houses. So what this boils down to is a simple 'rich v poor' argument and nothing else, rather than this trumped up community spirit bollocks.
If people genuinely want to stop the erosion of the community stop going on about your dislike of 'pale, bland young professionals' because it makes you sound like seriously bitter human beings and has nothing constructive to add.
you've totally misread this thread. This is NOT about nimbyism. ALL here on this forum (that I've met) have accepted that people moving about is one of the great inevitables of life. the influx of those 'professionals' (and I am one myself) is accepted as an inevitable-the question is the terms on which it happens, and the struggle is to ensure this is not to the locals' disadvantage, and that the process is managed to ensure the best of both worlds-an evolving, regenerating community with local citizens' rights preserved.
And where the fuck did I posit a 'conspiracy'? Do go by what's been said, not by what you (mis)read into it.
...does anyone have any ideas on how to combat the blandification of Brixton culture?
Here's a few (apologies if they're a bit obvious, but maybe you've got some better ideas!):
- Avoid drinking in blandified places like the Living Room (or Atlantic 66 :D )
- Drink in and support proper pubs like the Effra, the Trinity, the Albert etc
- Avoid the big supermarkets as far as possible; support the market and locally-owned businesses instead
- Hassle your local ward councillor about social housing and council property sell offs
- Have your input into things like the Brixton forum
- When your mates come to visit, take them somewhere locally that's interesting/different/unusual, surprise them & change their attitude to Brixton
- Visit and use local attractions like the Black Cultural Archives, the tate library, the 198 gallery etc
- Turn up to planning meetings, licensing committees etc and put your points across (whatever they may be)
- Be creative in your thinking... and when you have good idea, write to your ward councillor about it and hassle them to get it done. If they're not sympathetic, vote 'em out next year and get someone who is.
- Make an effort to talk to your neighbours, share info/gossip, talk about the local area
- Tell your friends about local issues, get them interested and get them involved
- Come up with constructive ideas and post them on this thread
- Blah blah blah and so on.......
Honestly, if some of you lot put the effort into your local community that you put into slagging each other off on these boards, I'm sure we would be living in a Brixton Utopia :D :rolleyes:
Love up :)
Great post, BH. I do most of these things already, and I am one of those dreaded beings. A MIDDLE-CLASS PROFESSIONAL. We're not all heartless individuals who don't give a shit about anything apart from money and house prices, you know. Just as not all poor people are paragons of virtue. I don't meant to sound smug or complacent here, I know I could probably do more.
It's convenient and easy to stereotype people, especially when engaged in this kind of debate, but unfortunately people have a habit of not fitting into boxes. I know quite a few "yuppies" (for want of a better word) who live round here and without exception they've done a lot to contribute to the community. One is a volunteer at the Brixton Law Centre, another has been a school governor, even though she has no children of her own.
I think Domski makes some valid points in his posts, as does Athos. But I also understand Hatboy's point of view as well. As Domski says, there's absolutely no point in trying to stir up class division when there are so many people -- rich and poor -- with so much to offer.
As you were.....
Great post, BH. I do most of these things already, and I am one of those dreaded beings. A MIDDLE-CLASS PROFESSIONAL. We're not all heartless individuals who don't give a shit about anything apart from money and house prices, you know. Just as not all poor people are paragons of virtue. I don't meant to sound smug or complacent here, I know I could probably do more.
It's convenient and easy to stereotype people, especi