2004 F1 Championship [Archive]

g force

25-02-2004, 17:03

I think it will be Schumacher again, although i'd love it if Alonso won it <end of day dreaming mode>

Montoya is quick, but the FW26 is a pretty radical car. Ditto the new McLaren - it's had a lot of problems in testing. Will both come good in the end I reckon.

New engine rule and the new tracks mean it should be a bit closer between the 'other' teams - BAR, Toyota, Jag, Jordan, Sauber - not that you'll see it on the TV :rolleyes:

So i'll stick my neck out and say:

Drivers:
1) M Schumacher
2) JP Montoya
3) F Alonso
4) K Raikkonen
5) R Schumacher
6) J Button
7) R Barrichello
8) J Trulli
9) M Webber
10 ) T Sato

Constructors:
1) Ferrari
2) Renault
3) Williams
4) McLaren
5) BAR
6) Toyota
7) Sauber
8) Jordan
9) Jaguar
10) Minardi (bless 'em!)

TBH i'm looking forward to 2006 to see who moves where - current rumours are Jenson Button for Williams with Ralf and possbly DC at Toyota, Webber to Renault.

the B

25-02-2004, 17:26

Think you have mr Button a bit high up there - and Renault doing 2nd in Constructors?!

Ich bin ein Mod

25-02-2004, 21:25

If Minardi get off the bottom spot then I'll be as happy for them as I will be for Ferrari winning the constructors. As for the drivers championship, obviously I'd love either M Schumacher or Barrichello to win, although I don't know if Schumi will be up for it.

As for the constructors, i think we;re a shoe-in for it, Williams won't be giving their all for JP and as for McLaren DC is just a joke. With a united front perhaps g force's prediction of Renault taking second won't be far out. Which would be nice.

g force

26-02-2004, 09:27

Think you have mr Button a bit high up there - and Renault doing 2nd in Constructors?!

TBH I think Jenson will have his best season yet *if* Honda get a reliable engine. The new BAR is quick and with a Williams seat up for grabs in '05 he's got everything to drive for. Don't forget were it not for the engine breaking Button would have scored 3 podiums last season, and a possible win, in a pretty poor car! 6th isn't that high up - best of rest if you will.

Renault is a bit of a dream but with McLaren and Williams with new cars, Renault could be a real surprise. Trulli and Alonso are both very quick and potential race winners and car seems reliable.

That's the beauty of new cars - for all we know the Williams is the greatets desing ever to hit F1 and will sweep all before it like McLaren in 88. But maybe not.

the B

29-02-2004, 05:26

F2004 - how much better is it?

Have Bridgestone done enough on the tyres?

thelittlechef

29-02-2004, 13:46

And how much will the new regs mess up Renault's chances? their stong suit was the electronics and (the really crappy) electronic starts...

thelittlechef

29-02-2004, 13:48

Ooo - just noticed, pre season show on ITV in a couple of minutes.... Why am I this excited about the new season?!

Yippee, beers and TV fortnightly on Sundays for the next few months!

red rose

29-02-2004, 13:52

ooh ta for pointing that out, I'll watch it.

the B

29-02-2004, 14:10

Martin Brundle said bitch on tv at 2pm :eek: F1, cutting edge and offensive I tell you ;)

thelittlechef

29-02-2004, 14:38

well thats the hard face of F1 for you...

And the chinese track looks as if it's going to put silverstone to shame...

the B

29-02-2004, 14:46

Looks like they'll be paying people to fill up the seats available though...or it'll all be corporate seating...

g force

01-03-2004, 09:31

Guardina's F1 guide out today - looks pretty good too and almost informative. At least one paper gives a shit about F1!!

the B

01-03-2004, 18:08

But the admittedly good advert used to promote it is a year old - though they can use it every year Michael wins :)

Wowbagger

01-03-2004, 18:36

The jargon guide they've got online is absolutely hilarious.

control, launch
Electronic system that feeds out the clutch automatically when the race starts allowing the driver free to concentrate on more important things, such as steering and crashing.

control, traction
Computerised system that senses the onset of wheelspin and controls it automatically by reducing the voltage in the spark plugs to align the speed of the front and rear wheels, leaving the driver even more free to concentrate on important things such as steering and crashing.

pit stop
One of the most thrilling moments in any grand prix is watching the mechanics wielding their torque wrenches. Incredibly in just 4.9sec a highly trained team can refuel the car, change its tyres and register air miles on the driver's loyalty card, though things can take longer if he wants cash-back.

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/formulaone/calendar/0,10465,1155787,00.html

the B

01-03-2004, 19:03

:D nice link

Yoj

02-03-2004, 12:56

cant wait for Coulthard to say "I must be more aggresive this year"

g force

02-03-2004, 13:46

Where have you been :confused:

Autosport from a few weeks back (no point linking as its subs only):

"I plan to be more proactive rather than just going through the testing programme and turning up at the grand prix, hoping it will be okay," he said. "As a grand prix driver you're on your own in the car. So I will be using those areas within McLaren that can help develop my technique. It is just a case of doing my homework and learning from the mistakes of previous races."

And this utter beauty:

Coulthard speech (http://seasonedf1.com/CoulthardExclusive2.html)

I love his optimism but come on as Damon Hill says the stats speak for themselves:

"So all our hopes are with my old Williams team-mate DC. Can he win the title just as he's about to lose his seat? If the evidence of the last 10 seasons is anything to go by, that's unlikely, despite Coulthard having been a driver for two of the most successful teams in formula one history.

To give you some idea of how "unlucky" he has been, take a look at the career statistics. DC has scored 451 championship points to Mika Hakkinen's 420 - his team-mate for six seasons who won two world championships during that same period.

He lies sixth in the all-time points table behind five of the greatest names of formula one, who have managed 17 championships between them."

source (http://sport.guardian.co.uk/formulaone/calendar/0,,1155788,00.html)

the B

02-03-2004, 16:20

"The only faint glimmer of hope would be if Michael Schumacher were to retire mid-season." From the same Guradina article.

Well, if your championship hopes ride on that - you're out of there...

And he's rubbish at one lap qualifying.

the B

02-03-2004, 23:24

Anyone want to watch GPs with myself and gemma james maybe in the future?

g force

05-03-2004, 09:47

1st pratice session:

1 Schumacher Ferrari 01:24.718
2 Barrichello Ferrari 01:24.826
3 Trulli Renault 01:25.757
4 Button BAR 01:25.786
5 Alonso Renault 01:25.853
6 Schumacher Williams 01:25.882
7 Montoya Williams 01:26.206
8 Coulthard McLaren 01:26.215
9 Webber Jaguar 01:26.312
10 Räikkönen McLaren 01:26.579

Okay so everyone's saving there engine's blah blah, but it's a new track record!!! Renault's are looking good as is Jenson :) Blew Sato away!

Not looking good for Jordan though - some terrible times and beaten by Minardi!! Toyota also seem way off the pace, by more than I expected.

Ich bin ein Mod

05-03-2004, 10:43

Fuck me, a whole second quicker than the Renault! Gott in Himmel!

*starts humming italian national anthem* da da da da, da da da da, da da dada, da da da da ...

Wowbagger

05-03-2004, 11:48

Anyone want to watch GPs with myself and gemma james maybe in the future?

Jaysus hell, that's quite the crappest euphemism I've heard in a loooong time. Must try harder (and I do mean harder).

red rose

05-03-2004, 20:23

And this utter beauty:

Coulthard speech (http://seasonedf1.com/CoulthardExclusive2.html)

bookmarked that:D

I dont get the eupamism, but i usually need things like that explained to me :rolleyes:

the B

06-03-2004, 15:25

Same, I think wowbagger is crazy and eccentric, probably wears silly hats ;)

And - for now, "we rule" ;)

red rose

06-03-2004, 16:38

I changed my hours at work today so that Im no longer working sundays so now i can watch the european races. My supervisor said 'now these changes wont come into effect for 4 weeks is that going to be a problem?' I did a quick calculation of when the european races start and said 'nope that should be fine :)'

the B

06-03-2004, 17:11

Excellente as someone said.

How sharp is this BAR then? If a shoddy driver like Button can punt it up the grid like that - who knows :eek: ;)

Anyway, what happened to those Mclarens?

red rose

06-03-2004, 17:15

well the first one can be excused because coulthard was driving it, but raikkonen surprised me.

Minardi arent gonna make it to the end of the season are they?

the B

06-03-2004, 17:19

The car looks desperately short of stickers.

Who thinks the new blue flag system won't work? *raises hand*

red rose

06-03-2004, 17:22

I dont think I caught that bit, what IS the new blue flag system

the B

06-03-2004, 17:26

Ah, well, there is a computer system/some blokes with pen and paper who will calculate when a blue flag situation is due to come up. They inform the team of blue flaggie - who must then move super early or be penalised by going into the pits, spinning around in a dizzy box for 10 seconds before getting back int he car and heading out of the pits making chicken sounds.

the B

07-03-2004, 08:30

Woo, Ferrari are ace :)

red rose

07-03-2004, 08:51

maybe shouldn't post any give aways until after the re-run for those people who arent as obsessed as yourself and me and didnt stay up

the B

07-03-2004, 09:31

Good point...but then they're bound to be crazy...

thelittlechef

07-03-2004, 17:33

cheers for keeping quiet guys....

But bloody hell that was crap! I've been waiting for months and the first race leaves me colder than a wet mackeral in a snow storm...

GGrrrr, I hate those bloody red things... I tell you, it's all down to the paint work, and that has to count as cheeting!

Wowbagger

07-03-2004, 18:05

As the commentators said, Albert Park's a funny old circuit. It often bigs up one car excessively; the Williams in the mid-90s, the McLarens in the late 90s, and now the Ferraris.

the B

07-03-2004, 23:57

Because the early 90s Williams was rubbish? Or the late 90s McLaren? Or the recent Ferraris?

g force

08-03-2004, 09:24

Well that was pretty much what I expected - Ferrari winning and the new cars being pretty unspectacular. Thought there would be more retirements which meant it became a bit of bore later on.

Still think my prediction of Renault coming 2nd in the constructors will hold and the new car seems pretty quick and, thankfully, reliable.

Good work by Jenson too :) Thank god the Honda engine held out (i had my doubts). The BAR could be a a bit of a dark horse - people have slagged them for a whiel now, but that was more to do with it being JV's team, IMO. The car is good, but sadly Sato is bad. If that guy had a Ferrari he'd still contrive to qualify it 8th!

Button for Williams in 05!

Not sure about Minardi but think they'll last the season, but after that who knows.

But, it's clear that McLaren have a lot of work to do. That car looked so jittery I'm surprised they managed to get it round corners okay. And the less said about Toyota the better - how can a car be that bad when you've spent that much money on it.

Ich bin ein Mod

08-03-2004, 10:06

We rule, we rule, we rule, we rule!

Wowbagger

08-03-2004, 11:28

Because the early 90s Williams was rubbish? Or the late 90s McLaren? Or the recent Ferraris?

Well, no. That's not the point. The point is, they may or may not be the all-conquering dream machines they look like at Albert Park. Walking the Aussie GP isn't necessarily a sign that you're going to walk the rest of them, too.

Clutching at straws? Moi?

Ich bin ein Mod

08-03-2004, 11:35

Well, we're not gonna walk the rest of them, the Bridgestones were more suited to the slightly cooler conditions and that undoubtedly helped.

But still, doing low 1:24s after 3 laps is pretty damm special

the B

08-03-2004, 13:23

Yeah, the new cars (tyres?) are quite spectacular overall - they're going pretty damn quickly anyway....I don't buy the massive Bridgestone advantage in full, otherwise the Ferraris wouldn't have had stonking pace on the Friday when the temperature was over 30 degrees.

g force

08-03-2004, 13:41

I wait until Bahrain is run before the tyre talk begins. Bridgestone have always had the advantge in cool weatehr and rain.

The pace was mighty impressive, and the that had to be down to a better set up and more HP.

the B

08-03-2004, 13:58

Ich bin ein Mod

09-03-2004, 10:54

Getting time in Albert Park isn't very much down to set up or horses, it's an established track so set up is usually quite well known and the biggest time gains on Albert Park are in the braking zones (Albert Park used to be devestating to brakes).

I wouldn't wait until Bahrain because a new track surface will have strange tyre degradation properties.
God yeah remember the cloudes of brake dust you used to get? Was almost as bad as Monza.

Everybody bar Ferrari, Alonso and Button seemed to be sleeping on Sunday though.

g force

09-03-2004, 11:17

It was pleased to see Massa back confirming what I always thought - he's a complete waste of space and a liability on the track! Sato apparently had car problems but he's a similar driver IMO.

Trulli would also have been further up but Sato hit him and bent the diffusor which gave him some *interesting* handling - not quite up to the McLaren standard but close!

The chassis is an evolution of last year - which can handle the twisty stuff like Hungary. If Renault can get a few extra hp and keep the reliablity McLaren and Williams will be playing serious catch-up!

Alos been hearing some interesting rumours regarding a certain Mr Villenueve coming back next year with all the team changes!!!!

Roadkill

09-03-2004, 11:46

The tedious procession that was this years Australian Grand Prix just demonstrates how predictable, how devoid of spectacle and how totally dominated by the big money F1 is. Modern open-wheel racing cars have far too much downforce which means precious little overtaking because as soon as you get too close to someone you start to take off; and the electronic driver aids that are permitted just increase the gap between a very few teams that can afford to exploit the tchnology to the full and the majority who can't. As a result, the outocme of most races is pretty predictable. Most of the grand old circuits were neutered in the wake of Senna's death ten years ago - instead of slowing the cars down to reduce the risks they altered the circuits - so much of the spectacle is gone. Personally, I also find the slick, media-orientated F1 show a big turn-off too. No matter what country you're in F1 always looks the same.

F1's been a waste of time for as long as I can remember, I just don't see the appeal. If you want exciting motorsport, what, tf, is wrong with touring car racing? It might be slower, but at least they actually overtake and do some strange thing called "close racing" that F1 forgot how to do fifteen years ago!

If you want really interesting motorsport (i.e. not just cars whizzing round and round a track), what's wrong with rallying? Sure, the World Rallying's all commercial and homogenised and sanitised too these days, and much of the character of individual events has been lost, but even so, at least you can tell which country they're racing in, and the cars don't all look identical apart from the sponsors' logos. The top-level rally driver is IMO a more complete driver than any F1 monkey anyway, because they have to win on tarmac, gravel or snow, and the events go on for three days at a time, not just a couple of hours. Better still, if you get outside the media-friendly, packaged motorsport that we're all surfeited with these days, the British amateur rallying scene offers a bewildering variety of events, championships and interesting characters. And the cars - below International level you can rally anything that meets the safety regs, hence the continuing popularity of the Metro 6R4, and the proliferation of mad home-built specials like Andy Burton's awesome Peugeot Cosworth and David Kynaston's mid-engined Audi. And with a bit of effort (and preparedness to drive to a remote forest and stand there for hours in the freezing cold :D ) it's the best free spectacle going. Pay £50 to watch a few prima donnas whizz round Silverstone for a couple of hours, or pay nothing to watch Andy Burton's Peugeot Cosworth howling down the long straights of Dalby Forest at 130mph? I know which I'd rather do...

It's ten times better than F1 knows how to be. Now, if only the British National Rally Championship were on terrestrial TV...

</troll>

;)

g force

09-03-2004, 12:27

Roadkill

09-03-2004, 13:23

Sadly thanks to "Mad" Max and Dave "fingers in too many pies" Richards the WRC is going the way of F1 and will soon become shite santised rubbish as well - I mean - re-entering a car thast retired? FFS The BRC hasn't been good since the kit car days of Higgins and Laukkanen in the Megane's, so I doubt it will get much coverage.

I know. :(

The British Championship (the international one - not the ANCRO national series I was referring to) hasn't really been the same since the early '90s, when it was still a stepping-stone up to world events for drivers like Colin McRae and Richard Burns. IMO the problem really is that World Rally Cars don't really make sense for amateur drivers because they're too expensive, too temperamental and too limited in numbers because manufacturers only have to produce 20 "kits" per year, so unless you have the works teams participating - and why should they? - there's not going to be much competition.

I used to have a lot of respect for Dave Richards, especially since he co-drive my all-time sporting hero Ari Vatanen to the 1981 World Championship, but these days I just see him as a megalomaniac. He's determined to mould the WRC to suit his commercial aims (since he has the TV rights :rolleyes: ) and to hell with anyone who complains that the sport is losing its character and its appeal. The WRC is just turning into an off-road version of F1.

And as for all this shit about allowing retirements back in, well ... :rolleyes: ... as far as I'm concerned, if you retire you're out. Don't see why that's such a problem - except for someone desperate to keep as many top cars in as possible to keep the TV crews happy. Just as bad - no, worse actually - is this crap about recce'ing on the same day - making pace notes in the morning and driving the stages in the afternoon, rather than having the recce and the rally separate. What, tf, is the point of that? I know the crews have whined about the loss of their "gravel cars" - but it's only 14 years ince the RAC Rally (now Rally GB) allowed any pace notes at all! Before that it was a "blind" rally. I know they say it's dangerous without gravel cars, but tbh wihtout any pace notes at all the speeds are lower anyway, and I certainly don't remember any nasty accidents on the RAC attributable to lack of pace notes. There were more offs, but because cars were going more slowly anyway they tended to be less serious. I'd rather see recces banned altogether on some events than this tinkering with the structure of the sport. And, of course, the WRC is turning into a carbon copy of F1 with its hospitality trailers and slick media presentation - the days when the World Champion's car was serviced in a muddy farmyard in the dead of night are long gone, along with the days when the RAC Rally was not just a round of the World Championship but also the big end of season bash for British rally drivers from national champion in his Cosworth to a clubbie in a Lada.

Tbh this sort of thing is why I like watching national rallying. It's free of all the politics and the media hype: it's just sport for the sake of it, and it's still got the sort of friendly, amateur ethos that world rallying lost a decade ago. You can still get involved in the organisational side of the sport - they're desperate for marshals on most events - for nothing, get close to the competitors, chat to the drivers, and there's a wonderful buzz to be had from standing by a rally car with its crew in harness with crash helmets on and the driver building up the revs, stopwatch in hand, counting down the last five seconds over the windscreen and then leaping back to avoid the shower of gravel as you shout "Go!" It's the one thing that makes me want to possess a car - so I could get out in the forests and do it more often. It's always nice when a driver or co-driver says, "thanks a lot. We've had a great day and we couldn't do it without you people [marshals]." Professional sport of all sorts leaves me fairly uninterested when compared to something you can get involved in.

the B

09-03-2004, 15:46

You tend find a good driver on something is a respectable driver on everything else (with some notable exceptions). I dislike Rally because it's clock racing, I don't really like touring cars because they're ability to go round those tracks is usually somewhere between poor and rubbish. It was like watching Massa going round Albert Park and kind of ignoring the extra track available and so forth.

F1 has the cars race much closer now than before in the turbo days...one of the 'grand' tracks is back this year, Spa Francochamps. The change of Hockenheim was a great loss :(

g force

09-03-2004, 16:47

I think it's the price you pay for technical innovation - F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport and as such pushes the boundaries.

A Williams technical guy said they could lap Silverstone 17 seconds quicker if there were no restrictions, but the car couldn't be driven by a human!

But restrictions are in place to protect the driver, in particular, after Hakk's crash in Australia and again when Ruben's crashed his Stewart, Wendlinger crashed the Sauber and almost died at Monaco etc.

I hate this rose-tinited bollcoks about it was so much better than before. Arse I say. F1 has always had a dominant force who take the regs and push them to win.

In the turbo era you had Brabham BMW, then McLaren then Williams, then McLaren again winning the majority of races, for example of 88/89 seasons. Even then only maybe 1 of 5, maybe 6 cars at a push could potentially win.

I don't know what you could do to really make it closer, apart from essenitally kill the sport by having only a couple of chassis and engines to choose from. But then all you have is CART racing and I've never rated that above F1.

Roadkill

09-03-2004, 17:05

You tend find a good driver on something is a respectable driver on everything else (with some notable exceptions).

True enough, but not always. An F1 car is a very specialised device so it's a bit unfair to expect someone from another discipline to jump into it and be brilliant, but IIRC Colin McRae didn't show up too badly when he tested a Jordan a few years ago.

Ayrton Senna, meanwhile, had several tests in rally cars and did fairly well. That said, the sportscar driver Derek Bell and F1 drivers Martin Brundle and Derek Warwick all tried the RAC Rally in the '80s and '90s and never did very well. There's some highly amusing footage of Bell sliding around in the snow on the 1988 RAC Rally, with his co-driver saying, "Just listen to me more! Please!" and Martin Brundle's Escort Cosworth ended up upside-down in Kielder Forest in 1996. Oh, yeah, and am I the only one who remembers the touring car driver Will Hoy stuffing his Toyota Celica into a tree early on the 1994 RAC - right in front of a TV camera?!

Perhaps the F1 driver is always going to be quicker around a circuit, but tbh I think it's hard to argue that the rally driver isn't the better all-rounder. That said, I think a Grand Prix on snow could be quite amusing... :D

g_force, I don't know about F1, but I'm certainly in the "rallying ain't what it used to be" camp! Nor has it got any safer: there've been a lot more accidents involving injuries to the professional crews over the last couple of years than at any time since the Group B cars were banned at the end of 1986.

g force

09-03-2004, 17:18

To be quick in rallying takes a lot more than to be as relatively quick in F1 IMO - obviously having a track helps :rolleyes: but car control tends to be better becuase there's not as many devices etc.

Listneing to pace notes in a real skill which think drivers truggle with - ie Valention Rossi on last year's Rally Wales.

Ah yes, Will Hoy - great in the BTCC, not so good in the RAC!!! Mind you does anyone remember Mansell's drive into the Donnigton Bridge in the factory Mondeo in the BTCC :D :eek: Ouch!

Rallying isn't safe because the marshalling at soem events is still awful - esp Monte Carlo. Also Gronholm set the fastest ever time on one of the old 1000 lakes stages in his 206 last year!

PWRC and S1600 and great but you never see it on TV
http://www.pavel-valousek.com/jwrc/baldacciauto.jpg

the B

09-03-2004, 19:00

Rally driving, it's a race against the clock - I don't think the rally drivers are great at overtaking.

Roadkill

09-03-2004, 19:43

Rally driving, it's a race against the clock - I don't think the rally drivers are great at overtaking.

Well, they're just different disciplines at the end of the day, aren't they? As you say, a rally driver wouldn't do the wheel-to-wheel stuff so well, and I can't see an F1 driver setting very fast times on an icy forest track. At the end of the day they're different skills, so this is a fairly futile argument really. :p :D

g_force, I don't think you're right about the accident rate:

Rallying isn't safe because the marshalling at soem events is still awful - esp Monte Carlo. Also Gronholm set the fastest ever time on one of the old 1000 lakes stages in his 206 last year!

You're right about the marshalling, although IMO there's also the fact that events take place in a much smaller geographical area than ten years ago so the spectators are more concentrated, and that is a serious safety issue. However, I was referring to accidentas involving injury to crews. They've always happened, but Colin McRae's accident in Corsica a few years back and the injuries to Risto Mannisenmaki, Tommi Makinen's old co-driver, plus a few other incidents, do make me think that the danger to crews is higher than it was.

Carlos Sainz (IMO the greatest rally driver of them all) commented some years ago that since the 34mm air restrictor was introduced in 1995 to cut power outputs there's no reserve of power at high revs to pull you out of a slide. I think that's been a contributory factor in some of the crashes - and it's also a reason that I think they shoulld change the rules to allow high-revving naturally-aspirated engines. Plus they'd sound better than WRC cars that top out at 7000rpm.

Anyway, I'm off to the pub so more tomorrow. :p :D

longdog

10-03-2004, 03:23

F1 Pah!

Which shiny red advert on wheels did they agree to let win this week then?

http://www.longdog.freeuk.com/smilies2/sconf.gif <--- watching F1 from a £200 grandstand seat.

http://www.longdog.freeuk.com/smilies4/peepwall.gif <--- watching rallying free from a damp tree stump.

Roadkill

10-03-2004, 09:05

North Humberside Forest Rally, 27th March.

http://www.rallycodriver.co.uk/btrda2003/comp/burton.jpg

<gets excited>

:D

g force

10-03-2004, 15:40

I see Toyotas have announced they are having a "new" car by mid-season - precisely how much money do they have??!! :eek: I thinking Mr Gascoigne is less than impressed by the set-up!

With the GP having been a few days ago, i'm a bit more positive about this season - still not sure about the qaulifying format, but I guess if it rains at the end of season 2 it could make for an interesting grid!!

I think the Ferrari pace will not be as great, but MS is the master of set ups on new tracks, seeing as how he walked Malaysia a few years back. hoepfully Trulli, Alonso and JPM can at least make it interesting...for about 10 laps...

mears

10-03-2004, 17:55

I hope we are not going to have another Ferrari dominated season circa 2002. Kimi's engine failure was not a good sign and coulthard won't challenge for the championship. With little Schumacher complaining about his contract and Montoya leaving for Mclaren next year I would imagine morale is somewhat low at Williams. Renault and BAR have made great strides but I don't think they are ready to seriously challenge Ferrari this year.

On a totally different topic, what do you guys think of capping the budgets of F1 teams? As long as the big teams can spend three times as much on car development as the smaller ones we are going to see this lopsided racing. Also with tobacco sponsorship being banned in many countries money might become more scarce in the future.

the B

11-03-2004, 05:08

Toyota have spent about $150 million this year I think. That compares to about $300 million by McLaren and Williams. Ferrari are thought to have spent $330.

Minardi get by on Michael Schumacher's wages excluding bonuses (under $50).

I think top teams can survive easily without tobacco money, they get so much TV coverage and have so much prestige. Williams used to depend on Rothmans, but not anymore. Slowly but surely, tobacco sponsership will vanish/get close to vanishing from F1.

As for budget capping, there is a certain amount of it in many ways. Minardi, despite a tiny budget, can put together a car that (while uncompetitive) is still very fast.

Will Michael Schumacher rule in Bahrain and China? Probably, but his skill lies in something other than set up, it's finding grip. He's good in the wet because he has a good sense of grip and the limits. :) He's ace he is.

Ich bin ein Mod

11-03-2004, 10:26

Yep he is ace, and even with budget capping the best will invariably end up at Williams, McLaren and best of all Ferrari. Its the prestige isn't it.

the B

15-03-2004, 16:09

Ralf Schumacher is ready to go to Toyota quite soon, be interesting to see how fast he would be in one. Mike Gascoigne could also be fired soon.

g force

15-03-2004, 16:40

Ralf Schumacher is ready to go to Toyota quite soon, be interesting to see how fast he would be in one. Mike Gascoigne could also be fired soon.

Eh? Fired? He's only been there a few months, has had no input on the new car and has already said he's going to start from scratch mid-this season and have a more revolutionary car for 2005.

Think they'll give him time to com eup with his own design before sacking him.

Agree on Ralf - will end up at Toyota with Da Matta or maybe DC, with Williams getting either (or in my dreams both) Webber and Button :D

the B

15-03-2004, 17:23

The possiblity of Mike getting let go is in yahoo news on F1, good resource :)

g force

16-03-2004, 15:41

Blimey - so what was the point of hiring him and spending all that money if he's not allowed to produce his own car???

Other rumours include JV to Toyota for 05 which could be interesting - esp as it means either both drivers will be sacked, or DC and Ralf will fight it out if Ralf is let go by Williams.

JV to Toyota? (http://www.itv-f1.com/news/news_story/20102)

g force

19-03-2004, 09:19

Bumpety bump - it's Malaysia this weekend!! S

So Kimi is quick, but coudl onyl run 9 laps due to relaiblity concerns with the Merc engine..doesn't sound promising. Looks like another poor GP coming up for Jordan and Toyota - god knows how they're going to make up that time.

I'm hoping Renault can get a bit further up seeing as Alonso was pole in '03.

Friday second practice times from Sepang:

1 RAIKKONEN McLaren 1m34.395s
2 R.SCHUMACHER Williams 1m34.693s
3 WEBBER Jaguar 1m35.054s
4 M.SCHUMACHER Ferrari 1m35.094s
5 MONTOYA Williams 1m35.100s
6 TRULLI Renault 1m35.115s
7 MASSA Sauber 1m35.288s
8 ALONSO Renault 1m35.300s
9 COULTHARD McLaren 1m35.301s
10 BARRICHELLO Ferrari 1m35.373s
11 BUTTON BAR 1m35.407s
12 PANIS Toyota 1m35.524s
13 ZONTA Toyota 1m35.850s
14 KLIEN Jaguar 1m35.996s
15 SATO BAR 1m36.292s
16 FISICHELLA Sauber 1m36.353s
17 DAVIDSON BAR 1m36.708s
18 WIRDHEIM Jaguar 1m36.883s
19 DA MATTA Toyota 1m36.907s
20 HEIDFELD Jordan 1m37.725s
21 BRUNI Minardi 1m37.818s
22 BAUMGARTNER Minardi 1m38.588s
23 GLOCK Jordan 1m38.796s
24 PANTANO Jordan 1m39.324s
25 LEINDERS Minardi 1m41.485s

Ich bin ein Mod

19-03-2004, 09:57

Yet more aggro in the Williams team

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/3522464.stm

The first person to say that he's taking after his older brother is getting a doing. Right.

g force

19-03-2004, 10:19

..................

Ich bin ein Mod

19-03-2004, 10:34

Whit you lookin at, ya fanny? Ah'll fucken do you *scuffles with g force

*wins

Ha, where are ye noo wae yer ...........?

</thread derailment>

the B

19-03-2004, 15:20

Practice times have traditionally been near useless, even more so now since teams treat the cars so so so gently.

g force

19-03-2004, 17:00

Whit you lookin at, ya fanny? Ah'll fucken do you *scuffles with g force

*wins

Ha, where are ye noo wae yer ...........?

</thread derailment>

Typically Schumey fan resorting to underhanded tactics - now I know how Villeneuve and Hill feel...

:p ;)

the B

19-03-2004, 17:52

Only in this country do people think Hill was 'done over' by Schumacher.

the B

21-03-2004, 16:57

We're so good at the moment...roll on Bahrain :)

Ich bin ein Mod

22-03-2004, 10:35

so fucking easy, oh it is so fucking easy ...

g force

24-03-2004, 09:27

Forgot to visit this thread after the weekend but to all the non-Button believers out there :p

Class drive, in what is a pretty average car. Roll on Bahrain...

the B

24-03-2004, 14:00

I think the car has finally caught up with the money, you put a good driver in it and you'll see what happens.

Button is a bit of a David Coulthard, he's not utterly shit but not world champion material. That Alonso kid and Raikkonnen though...

Roadkill

24-03-2004, 14:05

So, which carbon fibre cigar tube with an engine in the back and an overpaid celeb in the front won this weekend, then? ;)

the B

24-03-2004, 14:19

I dare you to make one out of a washing up bottle and sticky back plastic, chump :p

the B

29-03-2004, 03:54

Facts and Figures on the upcoming GP

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040327/23/2t0t.html

Button being really optimistic

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040328/23/2u1n.html

Oh, and his girlfriend's 'single' record whats-it-me-crap is REALLY bad.

g force

29-03-2004, 08:38

Oh god yes, she can't sing to save her life - okay so even I don't think he's a future WDC - but people have been slagging him off for a few years saying he doesn't deseevr a top drive when he's been saddled with some of the most horrendous cars of recent times - terrible Benetton, rubbish BAR.

Agreed of Alonso and Kimi, maybe Webber too - they're the future and i'll be happy once people like Panis and DC go and let more talented people have the better seats.

I'm still looking forward to this weekend's GP - I don't mind Schumacher winning but would like a bit of competition. Obviously Williams have had a few laps there so know the circuit slightly better but i'm not sure it's really going to help.

the B

29-03-2004, 12:39

Actually be interesting if sand starts drifting on track...a small amount is expected. Sand will be a serious engine breaker though support races may not show just how much of a circuit breaker...expect to see Ferrari pit stops with two extra blokes sticking their hands into the side pods to pull stuff out.

You'd think somewhere in that $330 million budget they could afford to give these guys a little equipment to make the task more efficient....maybe I should suggest that to them :)

g force

29-03-2004, 12:43

Yep, worth suggesting I mean how much does a dust buster really cost? £15? Maybe Schumey's salary is really screwing them!

the B

29-03-2004, 13:53

Well, I'm surprised they don't do other things at the same time like blow cool air into the ducts and everything...You're actually allowed to do that in stop and go penalities too (since you aren't technically touching or modifying the car)

the B

30-03-2004, 03:28

g force

31-03-2004, 08:18

Apparently Scott Dixon has impressed Frank Williams on his recent test in the FW16 - was 0.4 slower than Ralf, although the circuit is pretty easy. He's testing at a Catlunya soemtime in the next few weeks - could see an aussie and a kiwi racing for Sir Frank next season!

By all accounts he's pretty damn quick:

Won over 30 major Australian Karting titles by the time he was 12. Applied for a special racing license at age 13 :eek: to compete in the NZ formula vee class. He came 2nd that year, and followed that up the next year by winning 13 of 14 races.

Then moved to the Australian Formula Holden class, came 4rd overall and 1997 rookie of the year. Following year he won it outright with five wins, seven poles and five second place finishes in the twelve race series.

Ich bin ein Mod

01-04-2004, 09:43

Chance to drive an F1 car below

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040329/23/2vd4.html

Slight problem, you have to do it blind...still sounds like good fun :)

If someone else can be bothered to apply, I might. Even if I can't even drive on the roads yet :D
Fuck it, I'll apply :D

As for dust blowers - wouldn't they exarcerbate the problem? Surely they'd blow they sand straight into the engine :confused:

the B

01-04-2004, 09:47

Dust busters - suck things out?

They've used pressurized cold air blowing air in, in the past, to cool things down too.

Ich bin ein Mod

01-04-2004, 09:49

Oops, misread it

Yeah, I expect to see lots of holes in the bodywork this weekend to keep things cool. Should be an interesting race, doubt many will finish though.

g force

01-04-2004, 09:59

Hopefully not - I want Minardi in the points!!!! 20/1 for a top 8 - might be worth £1. Seriously look at the odds for the win:

Schumacher 4/5
Montoya 5/1
Barrichello 11/2
R Schumacher 8/1
Alonso 9/1
Raikkonen 12/1
Button 20/1
Trulli 25/1
Coulthard 33/1
Sato 80/1
Webber 80/1
Fisichella 200/1
Panis 200/1
Da Matta 200/1
Massa 200/1
Klien 250/1
Heidfeld 500/1
Pantano 750/1
Bruni 1000/1
Baumgartner 1000/1

Given no one really knows the track or the whole sand/temprature factor and some of those are looking pretty tasty - DC at 33/1 really stands out as does Trulli at 25/1

I'm off to William Hill at lunchtime...Trulli 16/1 for pole :eek:

Ich bin ein Mod

01-04-2004, 10:28

Button at 20/1 or even Fisi at 200/1 look tempting, might stick a quid on them both. DC couldn't win a race with himself and Trulli's car always seems to be the unlucky one in the Renault team.

g force

01-04-2004, 10:34

True but over one lap he could be in with a chance - light fuel load, 3 stopper - 16/1 seems way too long for a pole chance given the Renault has the out and out speed on circuits liek Catalunya which Bahrian seems similar to.

Agree on Fisi - if he can qaulify well he may have a shout - Webber at 80/1 is seriously tempting. I can't see more than 10 cars finishing and most people will be on 2/3 stop strategies.

the B

02-04-2004, 00:29

Hmm, Catalunya is traditionally considered a fairly easy circuit, I'm not sure Bahrian is. BMW have done some running there (of sorts - can't quite remember how - wasn't F1 cars but data is data). I have to say, those odds look a little too strongly in favour of Michael.

g force

02-04-2004, 09:57

But it requires decent aero packages and the ability to accelerate out of flowing corners without killing tyres, so Michelin should have an advantage with the tempratures expected too.

Williams have driven there - Gene did about 20-30 laps not long ago so they have bit of data - McLaren turned down the opportunity!!

Agrred on MS' odds - they seem ridiculous at a track with no F1 history and so many unknowns. I've oput £1 on Trulli for Pole 16/1, £1 on Button and DC for the win - yeah I know, but at 33/1 it was too tempting!

g force

02-04-2004, 13:52

:eek: Anthony Davidson - WTF!!!! Stunning time in the BAR for 3rd quickest.

Oh piss, arse, fuck, bollocks Truilli's engine has blown so at the very best he'll start 11th. :mad: :(

Oh an Kimi's too so he's going to have do something spectacular on Sunday (other thna blowing up). Looks liek a real car breaker and Michelin have had 2 tyres disintegrate on Alonso and Zonta.

Those odds on Webber, Fisi and a few other are looking better all the time!

the B

03-04-2004, 00:30

Bridgestone tyres doing better? Who'd of thought :) They must be using a really hard compound but are still putting in the best times over short distances :)

Schumi! :D

the B

03-04-2004, 14:01

Ferrari front row you say ;) :) :D

the B

03-04-2004, 14:57

http://eur.news1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/ng/sp/afpji/20040403/040403143408.1ei5f08z0b.jpg

http://eur.news1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/ng/sp/reuters/20040402/14/1155318478.jpg

the B

04-04-2004, 12:49

Looks like the boys in the scarlet red machines are going to get 1st and 2nd...:D

the B

04-04-2004, 13:06

And they did :D

30/30 for Schumi and 51/54 for Ferrari

Everyone else doing so rubbish, Button looks relatively good :eek:

Wowbagger

04-04-2004, 13:11

*snore*

Wake me up when Scumacher retires.

the B

04-04-2004, 13:17

Scumbagger :p

Ferrari dominance, but the rest of the field was mixed and competitive.

kained&able

04-04-2004, 15:03

button is starting to show some real class isn't he. Also klien fucking hell he is one brave little boy isn't he!!!!!!

danm good race(well if you ignore ferrai pissing over everyone as usual and minardi being the polar opposite and just being shat on)

some really great battles and some really good overtaking moves.

If mclaren can sort there reliability problems out then i reckon this could eb the best season for aggggggggggges.

oh and poor montoya he really didn't deserve to have his gear box to fuck up at all.

the question now is will BAR finish above renult and claim the 2nd leagues top prize!

dave

the B

04-04-2004, 19:54

Button isn't showing class, he's had the third best car on the grid and two of the better ones had problems. He's doing marginally better than Sato (who is not a great driver).

When people pick out good drivers, there are certain special abilities they have about them. Michael Schumacher has many (or all of them ;)), Montoya is a very aggressive and good at overtaking with good qualifying performance under the one shot system. They are the only two serious contenders for the Championship this season - the only reason Raikkonnen came close last year was because McLaren had a solid car last year to start the season and the rest didn't (or got punted off).

Klien looks alright, but the McLaren was doing really badly, Webber was able to hold off Coulthard comfortably so I'm not surprised Klien could give Kimi a run for his money many times over.

Bahrain as a track is good for spectactors but must be such a bore to drive...and Williams will finish above BAR in the counstructors.

the B

05-04-2004, 01:03

Does anyone else want to know what that fruity juice smells like? The one used instead of champagne...rose water with a couple juices and what not :)

Barichello is unlikely to face a 10 place demotion on the next grid for his issue with trulli in the pit land, Ralf Schumacher, who knows...

g force

05-04-2004, 08:08

Well that was a good GP! Oh B Button is a good driver - he showed that at Williams. He's got the pace but still struggles to put in consistently fast laps. Sato is also a good driver but not quite as consistent - although Ralf was to blame for the accident for sure.

I thought Sato's overtaking move in the chicane was the move of the GP :D

IMO it would be:

Schumacher
JP Monotoya
Raikkonen
--------------
Barrichello
Alonso
Button
Trulli
DC
Webber
Sato
Fisichella
--------------
The rest

Anyone else think Frank Williams must be pissing himself at Toyota offering £12m for Ralf? I mean WTF - sometime he looks like he could beat his brother other GP's it's as if someone stole his helmet and is driving for him.

Hopefully with that happeneing Williams can get Webber + other - maybe a real youngster like Bruni who showed glimpses in qualifying.

the B

05-04-2004, 09:35

Fisi is way better than you make him out to be - but never had a good machine. After all, he did win a race last year in a Jordan ;)

the B

05-04-2004, 09:38

Heidfeld is also a horribly underrated driver, the year he had at Sauber with Raikonnen, he consistently outqualified him and scored more points but was not offered the drive at McLaren despite actually being McLaren's young driver of the year two years earlier and practically being lined up for it. He was driving their cars in lower Formula races too.

g force

05-04-2004, 12:32

Yeah those ratings aren;t in any order more how the drivers are grouped in tersm of skill - no top team would choose Fisi as lead driver. I think the only reason he signed for Sauber (apart form Jordan's obvious shiteness) i she saw it as a way into Ferrari, but with Rubens on a new deal I think they'll choose Alonso, Kimi, maybe Webber over him now.

I've never been sure about Heidfeld TBH - he strikes me as a sub-Gerhard Berger and okay driver but never that spectacular. This whole "he's got the speed" idea doesn't hold much water with me - remember Karl Wendlinger? Fastest driver of his generation, apparently better than Schumi at Mercedes and never produced a thing (okay so the Monaco crash ended any chances but he'd not resally shone)

Nick was robbed of the McLaren drive though, you're right.

I guess given a decent car he'd go well and it would be interesting to see if he was in a BAR how he'd compare to Button and Sato. But then I think there's a few more who will challenge him - Klien, Scott Dixon, Massa (if he ever keeps on the track has the speed), Zonta, Davidson, Wirdheim etc.

kained&able

05-04-2004, 12:45

massa will nevr do much. he seems to do lots of very strange things in agrand prix.

and how is jensen doing marginally better then sato??? pissed all over ferrai in th warm up sessions over the wekeend, would probbaley have been on the front row of the grid if they were all on the same fuel, and has had two podium finishes out of three races putting him third in the drivers championship.

okay he would have finsihed 4th if it wasn't for montoya having a major problem. But considering the BAR car isn't the fastest he is doing a danm good job. he looks really smooth on the race track and making very few mistakes.

If BAR's improvments come through for silverstone then depending on what everyone else does i could see him climbing up to the top step of the podium this season(presuming shumacher crashes or gets assignated or something)

oh and B are you bigging up ferrai in a vain attempt to win gemma james' heart or you just glory hunting?

dave

the B

05-04-2004, 13:25

Button cocked up his qualifying lap, wasn't a case of fuel. If you go on the fuel theory, he had over 3 laps more fuel than both Ferrari's - and the Honda is a smaller engine so possibly 4 laps. Button just doesn't strike me as a driver with some uniquely special talent about him, bit of a Coulthard, he'll win some races but isn't going to be winning many Championships.

I ain't into gemma james, I've been a Schumacher fan since 1994 thanks. And if we're going to another gemma james rumour mill thread, I'm sure she'd have a few choice words about it all :rolleyes:

Button is only third in the driver's because his car stays on the track - Ralf and Montoya would have easily cruised right ahead of him and stayed ahead on him in Malaysia and Bahrain.

BAR haven't got that bad a car now, certainly rivals the Renault (and betters it on grunt).

And Schumacher hasn't had a DNF for a long time now.

g force

06-04-2004, 08:33

"to finish first, first you must finish" ;)

Button is a good driver - I don't think he has anything on JPM, MS, Kimi, or Alonso but he strikes me as someone who is a team player and knows about setting a car up.

He's much better than DC - for a start he knows how to out brake people to overtake. However the big difference between DC and Button is that they had top level drives - Berger drove for McLaren when Senna dominated, DC has been at Williams alongside 2 WDC's and at McLaren when they had easily the best car in the field. And what has he achieved?

Latest rumours: Ralf to Toyota to partner Zonta/Da Matta, Williams get Mark Webber and Hiedfeld, DC to Jag/Sauber.

Roadkill

06-04-2004, 09:16

I saw Sunday's Bahrain race. Blame beesonthewhatnow and a serious hangover...

Anyway, I reckon the best way to make F1 exciting again would be to stick Michael Schumacher in a Minardi. As it is, he's in the best car and he's frankly head and shoulders above any other driver in the sport - and has been for a decade since Senna was killed - so he's naturally unbeatable. Put him in a Minardi and watch him fight his way through the traffic ... my bet is that he'd still get it on the podium.

the B

06-04-2004, 09:22

In 1994, Schumacher won the first 4 grand prix of the season anyway...some of those happened when Senna was alive.

Roadkill

06-04-2004, 09:43

In 1994, Schumacher won the first 4 grand prix of the season anyway...some of those happened when Senna was alive.

Indeed, but Schumacher was very young then, plus Senna's Williams didn't handle as well as the Benetton IIRC. I think a straight fight between them later in the year would have been fascinating.

The point still stands though: Schumacher's a greater driver than anyone else in the last ten years: given an average car he could still win; in a great car he's unbeatable. No disrespect to him at all, but any sport becomes a bit boring when the same faces are on the podium all the time.

g force

06-04-2004, 09:53

Roadkill - It's a measure of the progress that in testing and at Sepang that Bruni managed to lap the Minardi on times that would have got him on the front 2 rows of the '03 grid!!

I really wish someone would give Minardi a load of cash and get them further up the grid. You have to admire their professionalism and dedication.

The alternative would be for Bernie to drop his ridiculous price for entering F1 - you have to pay a bond up front of around £40m I think and make some components standard (brakes, suspension) to try and cut costs. Then wwe might get a few more teams entering. In 1990 there were 19 teams trying to qualify for a GP like Simtek, Leyton House, Lola, Coloni (wuith the mighty Bertrand Gachot!!!), EuroBrun but the costs were prohibitive.

Getting some of those back might make it a bit more interesting so you had different cars in different races. Traditional chaissis developers liek Lola, Dallara, Reynard might then develop F1 spec chassis and let teams take custoemrs engines from other teams - Renault for example.

Also, whatever happened to Dan Gurney's US-only "Eagle" team? There were rumours he had some backing from Reynard after they pulled out from BAR and GM would supply the engine (badged as Chrysler so some such).

Roadkill

06-04-2004, 10:00

Agree with all of that. Frankly, I wonder how Minardi have managed to stay in business when so many of the smaller teams I remember from ten years ago - Footwork, Simtek, Pacific, Larrousse, Lotus etc - have gone under. They've done remarkably well to keep themselves in the business.

I'd still like to see what Schumacher could do with one of their cars - and indeed what one of their drivers could do with Schumacher's Ferrari. It's make for an interesting day's racing if they swapped places for a weekend... :D

kained&able

06-04-2004, 16:54

i reckon they should do that you know!!!!!

l2nd ast race of the season(just in case he decides to retire dont make it last) presuming schumacher has won the title he should be put in a manardi or if not one of the mid table cars like a jaguar or something.

be very very intresting. Good marketing for minardi and all.

dave

the B

06-04-2004, 20:30

It's not going to happen...Damon Hill in an Arrows was rare enough.

mears

06-04-2004, 22:48

the B

07-04-2004, 02:57

Speculative rumours put Kimi at Ferrari in the future, 2007ish. He's not happy at McLaren's recent performance and JP Montoya as a team mate ain't his cup of tea.

g force

07-04-2004, 08:08

Its amazing how few teams are in F1 these days. Promoters usually demand a minimum car count, something like 18 cars. Bernie better be careful or he will have to support a couple of teams to meet this requirement.

There was talk about Gurney fielding a F1 team for years, he would fuel speculation, commenting that a deal was just around the corner. But they could never get the millions required via sponsorship, and Reynard was not offering enough money.

Yep but it's amazing just over 10 years ago there were over 30 cars trying to qualify ot even get into a race! I guess with the way F1 is expanding into new countries it will take a wealthy businessman from India, China, Middle East to fund a team - setting one up would be hard though because of Bernie's ridiculous demands.

Mears - thanks for that - pretty much what i'd presumed.

I think Kimi is the obvious replacement for MS, unless a new italian wunderkid comes through. Alonso and Webber prolly won't go there unless there's $$$$$ involved because they're signed to Flavio.

the B

09-04-2004, 13:18

F1 cars "too fast"

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040409/23/35k6.html

Renault with new spec engine

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040409/23/35ic.html

BAR forced to ditch rear wing design (would have 3 elements, illegal under new rules this season)

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040409/13/35h4.html

the B

11-04-2004, 23:17

Brawn feels sorry for Kimi (http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040411/13/370j.html)

kained&able

12-04-2004, 10:04

brawn tapping kimi and letting him know just beacuse his car sucks at the minute he wont hold it agianst him when shumacheer retires and ferrai needa new driver.

dave

the B

12-04-2004, 18:07

Probably the truth...

the B

12-04-2004, 21:58

g force

13-04-2004, 08:31

On the BAR rear wing, it would appear that the issue was the addition of angle to a part of the rear wing that usually doesn't/can't have an angle...Williams are responsible for raising the issue apparently...

What a surprise...the humiliation was obviously too much for them. Would it really give them that much of an advantage? Can't imagine it's much speed wise, but maybe increased grip in corners??

On Kimi - I think it's clear he'll be the one to replace Schumacher, as there are very few drivers who could be number 1 at Ferrari. Maybe Alonso, but he has a contract with Flavio so will prolly stay with renault for the time being.

the B

14-04-2004, 11:35

Why Kimi's engine blew up quite as much as it did?

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040414/13/3994.html

Increased downforce on the BAR wing would let it take corners faster and hit the throttle earlier, not by much though...but it's about every little edge you can find in F1.

the B

15-04-2004, 23:47

More on the BAR wing and Williams

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040415/13/39un.html

BAR try a new wing addition anyway - borrowed from Ferrari this time...

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040415/13/39tt.html

g force

16-04-2004, 12:18

Williams getting revenge for BAR having Willis in the team?

More importantly "Mad" Max Mosely has announced changes to the Concorde agreement to allow a full grid of 24 cars from 2006. He's also recommened reduced running costs through standard components and reduced entrance fee to only $48m. Does he read U75 :eek:

So, this opens the way for 2 new teams to come in - now Dan Gurney has been in the shadows for a while but I think one of the teams will be Penske - They've already said they're looking into F1 and want to move away from IRL and this would be the perfect opportunity (maybe with Honda or Ford power?). Could take a few CART/IRL drivers with them - Scott Dixon, Bruno Junqueira etc

But who else? Maybe another manufactuer? VAG maybe - badged as either VW or Audi? Perhaps an F3000 team like Dallara, or an established sports team -someone like Joest?

Looks like things in F1 might be looking up so long as the poison dwarf and Dave "fingers" Richards don't try and line their own pockets even more!!

the B

16-04-2004, 14:46

Concorde agreement needs to change to slow cars down...but also, more cars on track might be interesting (do we need more backmarkers to get blue flagged :confused: )

g force

16-04-2004, 15:11

True, but if one is a big manufacturer they have until 2006 to get up and running. Okay Toyota aren't setting the world alight, but they're getting there very slowly.

It could open the way up for a pure chassis manufactuer, ie, Dallara, Lola, to come in, or even an existing manufacturer selling it's chassis to a new team. Penske had talks with Jordan a few years back but that came to nought.

Maybe Audi would enter using a Dallara chassis (badged as Audi) and let an experienced team like Joest run it. Either way the lowering of entry cost could spell good news for manufacturers who want to enter.

Whether they will or not remains to be seen, but it does smack of a realisation within the FIA that costs are getting out of hand which can only be a good thing.

thelittlechef

24-04-2004, 13:19

Woo Hooo!

Button on pole... 'bout bloody time too...

Did anyone else notice the Italian cameraman's shameless shot of Buttons girlfriend?

General Ludd

24-04-2004, 13:32

Wow! That was suprising. Well done to Button.

Ich bin ein Mod

24-04-2004, 17:12

Well done Button, hope BAR can keep the car developing this season and stop Mclaren from even gettting third spot! Mwah ha ha ha!

kained&able

24-04-2004, 18:46

who was it that was saying button wasn't a good driver????

dave

thelittlechef

25-04-2004, 16:08

Well, second isn't so bad for Button - It's actually very good but somehow feels like a letdown following his pole position...

As for the track, it really shouldn't be on the F1 calander, no overtaking spots and generally not a thrilling placce to watch people go zzzZZZZOOOOOOOOoooommmmmm...

Ich bin ein Mod

26-04-2004, 10:19

Won it already, my god we've won it already ... :D

g force

27-04-2004, 09:07

Pah! To all the Button doubters..."he can't handle pressure", "he's only doing well because the other teams are lagging"

He got pole in a stunning lap, forcing MS to make a mistake and then held his own in the race - no one was going to catch Shumey. Good work!!!

holteman

27-04-2004, 20:02

just been looking at everyones predictions before the start of the season.....

g force ya smart arse! ;)

g force

28-04-2004, 08:33

Well ya know.... ;)

Testing times can be misleading but I always thought the BAR had to come good at some point. I mean Honda know how to build a decent engine, and once they nabbed Willis from Williams the chassis was bound to get better.

Now, if they coudl just get rid of Sato and put Davidson in the car they'd be a team. I like Sato but he really needs to pull his finger out.

Surpirsed Renault haven't been quicker though - I think Alonso may be struggling with the hype.

And as for Ralf Schumacher...he wants $30m a year for that! :eek: :rolleyes:

the B

07-05-2004, 14:00

Button is still shit in my opinion, his driving is wholly unremarkable, there is nothing about him as a driver that stands out as especially good. He's strikes me as a David Coulthard. He can't push a car to the limits like other great or very good drivers.

Formula 1 will be undergoing MASSIVE rule changes in the future (2006 and 2008 look the years of the major changes). I'll drag up links from yahoo news soon enough.

the B

08-05-2004, 15:09

1. Michael Schumacher Germany Ferrari-Ferrari 1min 15.022secs

2. Juan Montoya Colombia Williams-BMW 1min 15.639secs +0.617secs

3. Takuma Sato Japan BAR-Honda 1min 15.890secs +0.868secs

4. Jarno Trulli Italy Renault-Renault 1min 16.144secs +1.122secs

5. Rubens Barrichello Brazil Ferrari-Ferrari 1min 16.272secs +1.250secs

6. Ralf Schumacher Germany Williams-BMW 1min 16.293secs +1.271secs

7. Olivier Panis France Toyota-Toyota 1min 16.313secs +1.291secs

8. Fernando Alonso Spain Renault-Renault 1min 16.422secs +1.400secs

9 Mark Webber Australia Jaguar-Cosworth 1min 16.514secs +1.492secs

10. David Coulthard Britain McLaren-Mercedes 1min 16.636secs +1.614secs

11. Cristiano da Matta Brazil Toyota-Toyota 1min 17.038secs +2.016secs

12. Giancarlo Fisichella Italy Sauber-Petronas 1min 17.444secs +2.422secs

13. Kimi Raikkonen Finland McLaren-Mercedes 1min 17.445secs +2.423secs

14. Jenson Button Britain BAR-Honda 1min 17.575secs +2.553secs

15. Nick Heidfeld Germany Jordan-Ford 1min 17.802secs +2.780secs

16. Christian Klien Austria Jaguar-Cosworth 1min 17.812secs +2.790secs

17. Felipe Massa Brazil Sauber-Petronas 1min.17.866secs +2.844secs

18. Gianmaria Bruni Italy Minardi-Cosworth 1min 19.817secs +4.795secs

19. Giorgio Pantano Italy Jordan-Ford 1min 20.607secs +5.585secs

20. Zsolt Baumgartner Hungary Minardi-Cosworth 1min 21.470secs +6.448secs

the B

09-05-2004, 09:51

Changes to qualifying system (which is currently really shit and dull) to happen by mid-season - revised system will be two 30 minutes sessions with times added up from both. http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040509/23/3qe9.html

Some bookies are ready to pay out for people who have bet that Michael Schumacher will win the world title.

New rule changes: http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040505/23/3nbh.html

Engines to be 2.4 litre V8 spec and to last even more race weekends.

Standardised electronics to stop there being any traction control, standardised tyre and brakes.

Overall car weight to be reduced.

Rubens Barrichello could do with a shave...

Ich bin ein Mod

09-05-2004, 22:30

What did I miss? First GP of the season that I've been working during

the B

09-05-2004, 22:46

Highlights on now...Ferrari 1-2 despite cracked exhaust for M Schumacher, assuming Barrichello told not to race M Schumacher off the track because of problem.

Renaults finish behind them, Trulli who led at the start with a stunning start and then Alonso.

JPM has brake problem and retires.

Button makes up lost places to go 8th.

Sato disappoints by finishing 5th, R Schumacher has quiet race at 6th.

Fisi does a very good job to go 7th.

McLaren do shit again.

g force

10-05-2004, 08:39

What the hell is up with McLaren - running 10th/11th most of the race :eek: I know they're looking to introduce a new chassis sometime this season but they've tested this car loads and it's awful.

Wonder if JPM is worried?! V weird that his brakes went too. Glad Renault did well and nice to see Trulli on the podium. Button had a poor weekend - but nobody qualifying that far down would have done much better without drivifn a red car that starts with an 'F'.

the B

10-05-2004, 09:40

B spec MP19 is due in the German Grand Prix (around then - though we know what happened with the MP18 :eek: )

I imagine JPM is very very worried - didn't seem like a good idea to move last season and now it seems like an even worse decision (in terms of driver's prestige) but his pay will be much higher at McLaren.

On his brakes - brake discs are quite heavy parts of an F1 car - also aerodynamically inefficient so the smaller and thinner they can be made, the better. They are currently variable (though this will change in the future on the rules).

In order to give the car more grunt, thinner brake discs were probably used (this used to happen a lot under the old qualifying system rules). Seems like JPM ended up with discs that were too thin.

I think the most impressive performance was from Fisichella :)

I think Button's 'the wind blew me off the track' theory for qualifying is a little too suspect - that isn't a slow corner, the amount of downforce should have been more than sufficient to keep a car stick to the track.

g force

10-05-2004, 11:25

Oh yeah that was a lame excuse and a half. Fisi was good - alos ver y impressed by Klien given what a poor car the jag is and also Bruni in qualifying - looks very smooth and pretty quick (for a Minardi):

So far i'd summarise the season thus:

Ferrari - Outstanding car. MS in a class of his own, RB doing a good support job (although having a fast second driver would make things interesting - imagine Villeneuve or JPM in that machine :eek: ) It's like 88/89 all over again - a class apart.

McLaren - Mediocore. No point saying anything about the drivers because god himself couldn't make that dog win. Assume they will get better, but actually seem to be getting worse! A lot will depend on who partners JPM next year

Williams - Also suffering the radical car syndrome. Fast yes, but seems to handle badly. JPM doing as decent job (although should stop whinging). Ralf is an embarassment compared to 99% of the drivers and will be out on his ear. Give the seat to Heidfeld to see what a proper driver can do!!!!! :cool:

Renault - Ultra reliable but haven't made the step up in performance I was expecting - or maybe Ferrari are just too quick. Great drivers, working as a team, although Alonso needs to learn to qualify and not throw it off the track!

BAR - Taking advantage of the problems of other with a decent car, great engine and decent drivers. JB has done very well but needs to keep it up top prove to ebveryone (fans included) that he can fight with the big boys. Sato is improving and will get better - possible winner in Japan IMO. Davidson doign a storming job on Fridays - soemone give him a drive!

Sauber - Considering it's last years Ferrari it ain't up to much. Drivers are steady but unspectacular (when Massa keeps it on track). Fisi will score more points as season goes on but that Ferrari drive ain't ever going to happen.

Toyota - where does all that money go? Mike has had v little time to do anything I susopcect next years car will be much better but in the meantime look set for another average season. Da Matta is steady, Panis too. Probably both be out of a seat come '05. Zonta likely to get one of them.

Jaguar - Errrr....one week it's on the front row, the next it's battlign with a Jordan!!! Webber will be on his way for sure, prolly Williams or Renault. Klien looks promising if they keep him.

Jordan - piss poor but like Jag prolly down to engine underperformance (and lack of money) Pantano looks lost in F1. Heidfeld looks destined to lose his seat Verstapen :( Shame becuase he's much better than results suggest and miles better than Jos. Not confident that next year will be any better due to lack of ££££££

Minardi - You've gotta love 'em for their never say die attitude but they'll always be last. Bruni looks like a very decent driver, Zsolt doesn't.

fubert

10-05-2004, 11:39

formula one is a load of wank these days. and it's been a load of wank since 1993 when williams and active suspension raised its ugly head.

the B

10-05-2004, 12:10

Kimi is staying with McLaren.

Renault, the cars are greased lightning off the line - have been for a long time and will be for a while to come I think.

Toyota, the money will come through eventually I'd of thought, but the same could have been said about Jaguar...R Schumacher is almost definately driving for them next year.

Formula 1 isn't that different from other circuit racing in terms of general spectacle - but there are less mistakes made so therefore less overtaking happens and less crashes happen. If you don't like Formula 1, which racing do you like? And since I only started to watch in 94 - I wouldn't know about how much the spectacle changed from before it really.

g force

10-05-2004, 13:17

I got into F1 back in the mid-to-late 80s - my mum loves it and watched every GP religiously!!

Fubert - Lotus had active suspension in 86 - the problem is more driver aids. The FIA rules state the car "must be driven unaided" but the FIA can't enforce the rules, hence why traction control is still used, semi auto gearboxes, etc.

Back then one team usually dominiated, rather than a single driver. So, okay you had Senna who was supreme, but you also had Mansell, Prost, Piquet in similar cars who also won GPs and made it pretty close stuff. Then you had second string drivers in teams who could win the odd GP, ie, Berger in the Benetton back in 86.

Now though, Schumacher isn't even challenged by his team mate - and I still think the team orders fiasco in Austria has tainted Ferrari and F1. Even when McLaren dominated it was slightly more interested becuase you had the Senna v Prost dynamic, or at Williams, Mansell v Piquet. Now it's a one man show, with a team built around him.

F1 as a spectacle is getting worse due to one man - Hermann Tilke. He designs every circuit, which nearly all look the same, he's destroyed the German GP. Look at how great some circuits are like Spa and compare them to places like Bahrain. Bernie wants to get rid of all the 'old' circuits because they don't have shiny garages and press areas in favour of soluless tracks with little overtaking that offer less and less of a challenge.

fubert

10-05-2004, 13:21

Toyota, the money will come through eventually I'd of thought, but the same could have been said about Jaguar...R Schumacher is almost definately driving for them next year.

i'd have thought that bmw would have wanted to keep a german driver on the team.

where to

10-05-2004, 13:32

the B

10-05-2004, 13:33

The changes at Hockenheim are very :(

It was a circuit (and still is) one in which Ferrari (and notably Michael Schumacher) doesn't do well on, but it was a good circuit and had some of the best GPs I've ever seen on it - Barrichello's win in the wet/dry conditions for one.

BMW would prefer some success over a German driver. Ralf is an alright driver but he's no world champion or close to it...

the B

10-05-2004, 13:47

don't really like it no more myself.

its years since there were interesting drivers, personalities, characters that gave it an edge.

the post race interviews used to be INTERESTING! :eek: the days of senna, prost, mansell, even hill was more interesting than some of these guys.

and the tracks were better, it was less commercial, there were more cars, it was less predictable, the races made sence and weren't decided solely by pit stops and refueling.

it was glamourous, but more tasteful and classy than todays razzamattaz which just seems fake to me.

pish.

The drivers are lacking in personality and seem very cold - Eddie Irvine and Jean Alesi were :cool:

Raikkonnen is a wooden plank in front of camera. But I don't watch F1 for the post-race interviews...

I'm not sure the tracks were better, but the cars found it harder to get around them. The tracks need to be more challenging maybe - but the technology of cars is such that you could easily make F1 cars so fast and nimble, drivers would need G suits.

I don't think adding 'bad' cars to the grid helps at all really...just meant there more cars who might finish having been lapped about "Forti" times.

I think adding sprinklers to tracks would probably make it more interesting...wet races are always better - you rarely get a bad one anyway.

g force

10-05-2004, 14:13

i'd have thought that bmw would have wanted to keep a german driver on the team.

Yep - two words: Nick Heidfeld.

He's class, easily as good as Ralf and can actually race, and unlike Ralf knows how to vertake - getting plenty of practice in that Jordan too! But then you'd think Toyota would want a japanese driver butt hey seem happy to have whoever.

Ich bin ein Mod

11-05-2004, 09:41

Even allowing for the fact he's been in crap teams, Heidfeld hasn't really lived up to the promise he showed in F3000.

All this talk about hardly any overtaking, I've said it before and I'll say it again: is it a really bad thing? Too much overtaking means it's pointless watching the first 90% of a race, wheras in F1 you learn to cherish overtaking, especially watching a driver cut vital tenths off another's lead then having a last-gasp do-or-die go for it.

BTW, F1 got far better since '99 :D

the B

11-05-2004, 11:35

It was very good in 94 and 95 too ;)

Ich bin ein Mod

11-05-2004, 15:00

Na, Ferrari didn't win anything!

the B

11-05-2004, 15:03

Jean Alesi got a good podium finish at Belgium I think...95?

*hazy memory*

I think some bloke called Michael Schumacher stole what would have been a victory though...:p

fubert

12-05-2004, 10:46

Jean Alesi got a good podium finish at Belgium I think...95?

umm.. alesi never actually finished a race at spa in a ferrari.

he did get several podium finishes - even won the canadian gp.

the B

12-05-2004, 10:54

Hazy memory then...I have a funny feeling I meant Hockenheim though...I do remember the overtaking move by Schumacher on Alesi at a schicane - which doesn't suggest Spa really...

Ferrari get Shanghai advantage: http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040512/13/3s7y.html

Williams driver line-up next year looks like Webber (generally) and Jacques Villneuve http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040511/13/3rqi.html

(there is far more speculation than that - but I've just posted the one article)

Be interesting to see Villneuve back in a competitive car - he's actually a good driver.

fubert

12-05-2004, 11:05

Williams driver line-up next year looks like Webber (generally) and Jacques Villneuve http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040511/13/3rqi.html

williams hope to announce their final driver line up for 2005 in august - or so cnn said last night.

the B

12-05-2004, 11:10

That's not 'news' really...traditionally, August has been the time for driver line ups to be confirmed for sharp end of the grid teams...teams lower down the grid tend to take longer deciding because of sponsorship arrangements etc.

fubert

12-05-2004, 14:35

the B

12-05-2004, 15:12

Usually just after Hockenheim which has been in late July/August depending on the demand for just one race in August (a fairly recent thing to accomodate a gap of 2 weekends to Hungary). Hockenheim was the race in which they tended to drive for their seat if there was doubt.

Ich bin ein Mod

12-05-2004, 15:20

What prat thinks Ferrari won't win the Constructors championship?

the B

12-05-2004, 15:30

Think that vote was made before the season started. Think they might be wrong though ;)

As for the 7 who thought Michael wouldn't win :D :p

Ich bin ein Mod

12-05-2004, 15:34

I was giving them the benefit of the doubt about Schumi.

But there was never gonna be any doubt about Ferrari winning.

Whoever you are, non-ferrari voter, you're a fool!

fubert

12-05-2004, 15:34

Think that vote was made before the season started. Think they might be wrong though ;)

As for the 7 who thought Michael wouldn't win :D :p

aren't schumachers and the whole ferrari dream team ; todt, brawn, the designer (byrne is it?) and all their associated cronies contracts up at the end of 2004 ?

if i were ms and i'd just won #7 and #5 in a row i'd give retirement a serious thought.

g force

12-05-2004, 15:36

Webber would be good, but he might be earmarked for Renault (Flavio being his manager 'n all) presuming they don't keep Trulli for '06. Personally if they can't get Mark i'd go for 2 from; Fisichella, Davidson, Heidfeld, or Button.

The only teams who seem to be sorted driver wise are Ferrari and McLaren. Everyone else is liely to chnage drivers, with the possible exception of Renault.

Now you assume DC will go to either Jag or Toyota and Ralf seems likely to be Toyota bound. Everything else is kinda up in the air which is why so many rumours are flying - it's been a while since a top seat been up for grabs and a lot of people want the Williams drive.

Either way it's all palying into Ferrari's hands who have the best car, team spirit, and settled drivers

the B

12-05-2004, 15:41

I think Schumacher has been signed on until at least 2006 and the supporting team until 2008.

2008 could well be an interesting year - I don't see Michael racing once he hits 40 but you never know...but the Concorde Agreement also changes and it'll be a new era of Formula 1.

the B

14-05-2004, 14:51

Coulthard makes excuses for why BAR are doing so much better - and this time, it's not completely unbelievable :eek: He argues that BAR getting to run a third car (which will not incur a penalty should the engine fail/need replacing) is too much of an advantage.

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040513/23/3stw.html

Ich bin ein Mod

15-05-2004, 14:16

Yet again Coulthard would have been better off worrying about his own failings rather than moan about what other teams are doing. The rule was brought in to shake things up a little, and it has done with Renault using it to good advantage last year and BAR doing the same this year.

BAR doing much better has no effect on the fact that Coulthard is shit, the Mclaren (which was in development all last year ffs!) is shit and DC and Ron Dennis are two of the biggest tossers in Formula 1.

How DC has kept his drive with Mclaren for so long is beyond me. For a driver to only have been with two top teams his whole career and never even look like challenging for the title is shocking.

the B

15-05-2004, 16:32

He's still technically the second most successful driver around, 13 GP wins.

Ich bin ein Mod

17-05-2004, 19:18

Statistics are like mini-skirts, they go up and down but hide the most important thing ((c) Ebbe Skovdahl)

the B

18-05-2004, 16:04

Weather report for Monaco on the forthcoming weekend.

Light rain on Friday, scattered showers on Saturday, showers for race day :eek: :D

g force

18-05-2004, 16:25

Exccccceellllllllent.....

http://pobladores.lycos.es/data/pobladores.com/ja/vi/javij/channels/los__simpsons/images/other29.gif

I'm looking forward to the carnage...coudl it be 1996 all over again - in the sense of an surprise winner rather than Panis getting the Toyota to finish first!

Or maybe i'll just wait for the ITV news telling me how much MS won by :rolleyes:

the B

19-05-2004, 23:38

"The only race I have ever done at Monaco was the 2002 Grand Prix, and I crashed out of that very heavily."

Guess who said that :D

Anyway, latest weather update for Monaco, dry Friday, rain in the afternoon on Saturday - showers all day Sunday...might even get some standing water...:D

g force

20-05-2004, 08:34

So possiblity of rain during second qualy session!? Superb - Fishchella for pole!!! :D

Seriously, that would be great having a surprise pole thanks to the weather - kinda like Rubesn in the Stewart at Spa a few years back.

Oh and the quote - i'm guessing it has to be good ol "360" Massa!!!

g force

20-05-2004, 09:55

Holy Jesus Fisi's just gone round in 1:18.441.

@#/%$&^& that Davidson's just done 1:17.91!!!!!!!! :eek: Somebody give him a drive!

Webber's engine has blown up by the looks of it. Not good news and there's soem mighty big black clouds over the course. Ahhh the joy of a decent internet connection at work!

the B

20-05-2004, 10:09

The quote is Massa :D

Davidson's BAR is significantly better than the others by the way...I really wouldn't read into his times - the reason it's better is because the engine can be run with significantly more grunt (since it isn't a problem as such if it blows up - he's not going to lose 10 grid places anyway).

Friday

A good start to the weekend, with plenty of sunshine. Clear blue sky to begin with, turning intermittent during the afternoon as patchy fair weather cloud builds across the area. Just a very small risk of a late afternoon shower cropping up, but it should remain dry for the F1 sessions. Temperatures peaking at 24C / 76F with light breezes.

Saturday

A slightly different day as more cloud will have ventured into the region. Dry and bright during the morning, with some sunny intervals, but, by midday, cloud will be building enough to start producing moderate rain showers. The afternoon is at moderate to high risk of rain showers, so a fair chance these will affect main qualifying. Still relatively warm at 22C / 72F, but a noticeably stronger wind.

Sunday

A rather cloudy start, with a fair few showers scattered across the region. These will tend to push westwards during the morning, clearing by midday to leave a brighter, perhaps sunnier, afternoon. Early strong winds easing by midday and afternoon. Feeling cooler after the passage of those showers, with maximum temperatures at 19C / 66F.

No wet race for Monaco now :(

g force

20-05-2004, 10:17

Oh :( Wet/dry mix qulay coudl still produce an interesting grid though, just be nice for a change.

Ah good, had to Mass the crash really didn't it!

Nice work from BAR again! Seeing as pole was in the 1:15s last year so I guess in the dry mid-to-late 14s is possible - the track is clearly not that quick at the moment, and with changeable weather it looks like Ferrari and BAR have the upper hand

1. 1 M.SCHUMACHER Ferrari B 1'16"502 157.172 Km/h 14
2. 10 SATO BAR Honda M 1'17"279 + 0'00"777 23
3. 9 BUTTON BAR Honda M 1'17"339 + 0'00"837 19
4. 38 ZONTA Toyota M 1'17"426 + 0'00"924 28
5. 5 COULTHARD McLaren Mercedes M 1'17"524 + 0'01"022 15
6. 8 ALONSO Renault M 1'17"686 + 0'01"184 22
7. 35 DAVIDSON BAR Honda M 1'17"791 + 0'01"289 36
8. 7 TRULLI Renault M 1'17"856 + 0'01"354 24
9. 3 MONTOYA Williams BMW M 1'17"937 + 0'01"435 16
10. 6 RAIKKONEN McLaren Mercedes M 1'17"952 + 0'01"450 18
11. 11 FISICHELLA Sauber Petronas B 1'18"338 + 0'01"836 16
12. 2 BARRICHELLO Ferrari B 1'18"621 + 0'02"119 14
13. 16 DA MATTA Toyota M 1'18"889 + 0'02"387 22
14. 17 PANIS Toyota M 1'19"218 + 0'02"716 17
15. 14 WEBBER Jaguar Cosworth M 1'19"261 + 0'02"759 8
16. 12 MASSA Sauber Petronas B 1'19"335 + 0'02"833 16
17. 15 KLIEN Jaguar Cosworth M 1'19"487 + 0'02"985 29
18. 19 PANTANO Jordan Ford B 1'20"528 + 0'04"026 18
19. 39 GLOCK Jordan Ford B 1'20"534 + 0'04"032 15
20. 37 WIRDHEIM Jaguar Cosworth M 1'20"680 + 0'04"178 18
21. 18 HEIDFELD Jordan Ford B 1'21"141 + 0'04"639 17
22. 20 BRUNI Minardi Cosworth B 1'21"201 + 0'04"699 27
23. 21 BAUMGARTNER Minardi Cosworth B 1'22"203 + 0'05"701 18
24. 40 LEINDERS Minardi Cosworth B 1'23"361 + 0'06"859 12

the B

20-05-2004, 10:57

Monaco is a very slippy circuit, it has very little in the way of mechanical grip and the low speeds mean low downforce...

Anyway, the times will improve a great deal as the track gets rubbered in.

the B

20-05-2004, 13:54

Thursday Session 2 times: http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040520/23/3xoc.html

M Schumacher top with the only sub 1:15.000 time.

Davidson behind, then Barichello. Very tight behind M Schumacher.

Looks like Webber will be ten places down if that engine isn't fixed soon (had a fire).

g force

20-05-2004, 14:18

Not a surprise - good that Trulli and the BAR's are up there could make things interesting if it stays like that will the Renault's starting ability. I expect MS to be on pole in the mid-14s, early 13s depending on weather with Renault & BAR fighting it out.

Kimi was apparently on light fuel for his time which doesn't bode well for the GP. DC nowhere as usual.

the B

20-05-2004, 14:40

Even if MS loses 1st place off the start, I expect him to have the fuel to go for a little longer, but very much faster - and leap ahead after the pit stop(s).

g force

20-05-2004, 14:50

Ralf had engine replaced so gets 10 place penalty..."from bad to worse" springs to mind. Unsure about Webber but it doesn't look good the car was smoking heavily

Renault can hold a fair bit of fuel and the car can handle - all they'd need to do it be 2nd or 4th and Trulli/Alonso are well in with a shout at turn 1. Well, i'm hoping at least - just anything other than a Ferraro leading for a change.

thelittlechef

22-05-2004, 08:47

the B

22-05-2004, 10:13

Latest practice times: http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040522/23/3yuj.html

Very very very close at the sharp end.

bi0boy

22-05-2004, 12:36

Both the Renaults have out-qualified Schumacher!

the B

22-05-2004, 12:39

They have only fumes of fuel in them - hopefully...I'd be surprised if they actually had more.

the B

22-05-2004, 12:50

Seesion 2 of Qualifying for Monaco

Trulli
Button
Alonso
M Schumacher
Raikkonen
Barrichello
Sato
Coulthard
Montoya
Fisichella
Webber
R Schumacher had the second fastest time but starts 12th after changing engine.
(the rest)

Not so bothered by the Renaults, suspect Alonso will jump Button on the start.

M Schumacher can still win it.

F1 ITV's Button obssession is pissing me off to no end. :mad:

tom k&e

22-05-2004, 14:03

F1 ITV's Button obssession is pissing me off to no end. :mad:

Why? He's the only good british driver, they're rightly obsessed with him

Ich bin ein Mod

22-05-2004, 17:06

Why? He's the only good british driver, they're rightly obsessed with him
Yeah, but it's the way they go so over the top on him, like they did with Hill that makes you end up hating the guy through no fault of his own

red rose

23-05-2004, 12:06

Why? He's the only good british driver, they're rightly obsessed with him

I've never understood that, just because he's british shouldnt mean he gets that much more coverage. I mean, fair enough his home nation are likely to want to pay him a bit more attention but they really do go overboard.

Panis has made a mess of the start.

edit: twice

Pingu

23-05-2004, 13:13

in the past I have said F1 is sending me to sleep nowadays but...

todays race is a corker.

I am not a huge fan of monaco from a spectators point of view but to drive there at that pace takes a serious set of marbles.

the B

23-05-2004, 13:28

:mad: x 100 at Montoya

:mad:

Michael could have won it :mad:

bi0boy

23-05-2004, 13:35

Michael was stupid for braking so hard in the tunnel - not Montoya's fault IMO.

the B

23-05-2004, 13:39

Bollocks - it's safety car conditions - you don't go quickly under the safety car, it's like double waved yellows - you should be able to stop immediately at any time.

red rose

23-05-2004, 13:44

Montoya losing concentration as far as Im concerned. Unfortunate that michael's wheel locked but that happens often under safety car conditions and montoya should have been paying more attention.

Alonso looking mighty pissed off too (rightly so)

:mad:

red rose

23-05-2004, 13:51

Button is not going to catch trulli, and even if he does he's got no chance of overtaking.

Why do the commentators insist on pushing it like that?

kained&able

23-05-2004, 14:46

only .4 secs off his back, one mistake and he would have had it. good to see button on the poidum again!

what the hell was shumacher doing?????

dave

the B

23-05-2004, 14:57

Anyone who actually knows about F1 will know that you can't overtake under SC, that the SC controls maximum pace while the leader, car behind, controls the pace of the pack, that the conditions are equivalent to double yellows - must be able to stop immediately...

There is no way you start jumping someone to unlap yourself....it's pointless...especially if the car is faster...there is no point doing it there on Monaco because you pretty much catch up on the schicane after the tunnel, at rascas or Anthony Nouges....

Button was never going to overtake Trulli, it was very wishful thinking.

Epico

23-05-2004, 15:05

What a fantastic race. The best in a long time. My heart was beating so fast in the last few laps, it's a long time since F1 has made me do that.

Well done to Trulli, I've always had a soft spot for him. Button was very unlucky but he'll have his day soon.

kained&able

23-05-2004, 15:15

anyone who klnows monocco knows you don't start doing brake tests in the middle of that tunnel or go as far to the left as shumacher seemed to be. montoya was on the racing line and micheal was a fair bit wide of him, lot of debris and dust and stuff round there.

silly idea always likely to lock up, looked like montoya just got a bit close and tried to evade but didn't have room.

and button didn't have much of a chance but you gotta race to the line and all it would have taken was a slight lock up and button geting passed the minardi a tad quicker and it would have been done.

anyway its part of the commentators job to make the race as exciting as possible so of course they are going to say he has a chnace.

dave

thelittlechef

23-05-2004, 15:17

:mad: x 100 at Montoya

:mad:

Michael could have won it :mad:

:D :D
ha, ha, ha, ha....

lol lol lol lol

God bless JP, and all who crash with him...

the B

23-05-2004, 15:24

There isn't exactly racing line when you aren't racing ie. behind a SC but Michael was on it so...

In the tunnel or not, you should be able to stop at any moment, it's not like there's a reason to be going quickly behind the SC...locking up can flat spot tyres but it heats brakes, that's the entire point of doing what he did :rolleyes:

Ultimately, Montoya shouldn't have needed to evade at all, he shouldn't have been travelling such that he would need to evade, there was nothing to gain by overtaking Schumacher since he'd blue flagged to get out of the way again afterwards...

Button really had no chance to overtake - Trulli could have been moving at Minardi speeds and been as wide as the road.

The commentators could have just as easily gone into other things than 'Button has gained another actually insignificant tenth of a second on a driver deliberately going slowly'

the B

23-05-2004, 15:26

:D :D
ha, ha, ha, ha....

lol lol lol lol

God bless JP, and all who crash with him...

Because crashes are safe? :confused: :mad:

You can piss off as far as I'm concerned, attitudes like that are only just about imaginable because cars are so safe now - you wouldn't have found it funny when that sort of crash would be fatal...hopefully.

kained&able

23-05-2004, 15:31

no racing line???? right wheres garf i wnat some who can back this up easily beacuse this is getting silly.

there is a racing line, this will eb the line where most of the rubber has been put down for the enire racing day by cars. also in the racing line there is no dust due to many cars goign through that patch and not letting it settle.

its common knowlege that there are dirty and clean parts of the race track. the clean parts tend to be the racing line. deviate from this for too long and your always in with a chance of fucking up.

as fpor the safety car thing, yeah your definately not allowed to overtake, but its not a double yellow situation.(edit: double yellows being used for a specific area of the track rather then the entire thing) the car is there to limit speeds all the way round the track while things are getting cleared. The teams will be in the radio telling the cars which parts of the race tarck to watch out for(and they've been round a lap by then anyway so should know whats going on) therefore they will know which bits to be especilly carful on.

The inside of the tunnel wasn't a problem and at the speeds they were doing there should have been no need to brake espcilly considering the fact that the tunnel is the fastest point(or one of them at least) on that track.

shumacher should not have had to brake at all during that tunnel and there would have been no need to take a different line.

so bollocks to your hero he fucked up and was out the grand prix. simple as.

dave

the B

23-05-2004, 15:37

Bollocks - SC is used to indicate the effect of double yellows all over the track - otherwise you just use double yellows on the effected area.

Considering Alonso's accident was in the fucking tunnel, I think everyone was right to travel quite carefully in the tunnel apart from Muppetman Montoya apparently.

When you are not racing, there is no racing line as such - during a GP, everyone will be on the racing line (dry conditions) anyway because you don't pick up marbles of rubber from tyres like that...Michael was on the racing line in the tunnel - there is just one line, it's not two cars wide (as Montoya felt he had to demonstrate apparently).

I think you'll find you try and maintain all temperatures and pressures when possible - especially since you don't want to be cold on the downhill breaking schicane following the tunnel since you may damage the undertray of the car.

Montoya has consistently been doing fuckwitted things in his car, so has Ralf, they've both been involved in many accidents.

bi0boy

23-05-2004, 15:39

What do people think of the other Schumacher slowing down in the tunnel to let Alonso past - again, not a good place to slow down. :rolleyes:

kained&able

23-05-2004, 15:47

he did it twice. the 2nd one wasn't too bad. the first one was stupidly dodgy

and prooves my point perfectly about the tunnel. its not a place you should try and do anything clever in at all.

dave

bi0boy

23-05-2004, 15:49

And why didn't they black flag Sato? I don't think i've ever seen anyone black flagged..

the B

23-05-2004, 15:52

I think Ralf was being stupid, as per usual really...

I always get reminded of Australia 2003 when he was airborne after ramming Barrichello off the line and he was still on the accelerator...

the B

23-05-2004, 15:55

To be black flagged by the race director takes a while...and the reasons for it are that your car is trying to race when it's not possible to race properly (ie. so much of your car is missing you can't possible reach the minimum weight or something).

It's pretty rare...

He should have had some penalities thrown early on for the jump start...

kained&able

23-05-2004, 15:58

not convinced he did jump start.

need to see the rules though before i make a fool of myself.

is it any movement or is it if the front wheels are out of th box or what?

dave

thelittlechef

23-05-2004, 20:21

Because crashes are safe? :confused: :mad:

You can piss off as far as I'm concerned, attitudes like that are only just about imaginable because cars are so safe now - you wouldn't have found it funny when that sort of crash would be fatal...hopefully.

I think you took my comments a bit more seriously than they were intended...

My joy is at a non schuey win... and a no points either... and to that end I think I'll add: :D :D :p

g force

24-05-2004, 08:13

Now that was a GP!

The SC issue is important but slightly different at Monaco because drivers can be unsighted pretty easily - I'm suprised the SC didn't crawl through the tunnel knowing that there's a blind-ish bend in it.

MS locked up which reduced his speed pretty quickly and JPM wasn't paying attention under full track caution - simple as. A racing accident. I've read in some places that people think it was deliberate - if it was he would ploughed up the back of him, but he clearly dives to the right to avoid the collison, knocking MS towards the barrier.

My joy for Trulli winning and JB coming second was nothing compared to seeing Fisi walk away from the crash caused by Sato's engine blowing. As soon as it happened it looked pretty nasty but thank god for the new car design - 15 years ago and i'm not convinced he'd have walked away.

Trulli deserved that win and i'm not convinced MS woudl have caught him. God knows what Alonso was trying to do overtaking on the outside in the tunnel :eek: :rolleyes:

Oh and :rolleyes: :rolleyes: for Ralf - he really think he's worth $30m a year!!!!!!!!!!!!! Toyota are making a mistake IMO

g force

24-05-2004, 08:16

not convinced he did jump start.

need to see the rules though before i make a fool of myself.

is it any movement or is it if the front wheels are out of th box or what?

dave

It's measured using beams - the wheels have to move for sure because they are at the front edge of the box - the front wing is in front of the box. Not sure how far forward you'd have to go.

kained&able

24-05-2004, 09:19

I think you took my comments a bit more seriously than they were intended...

My joy is at a non schuey win... and a no points either... and to that end I think I'll add: :D :D :p

esepercilly considering b's new detah to montoya tagline thingy!!!

you can't criticize someone for wanting to be out the gp(and it was never going to be a fatal crash) while willing a different racer death!!!!

dave

kained&able

24-05-2004, 09:21

It's measured using beams - the wheels have to move for sure because they are at the front edge of the box - the front wing is in front of the box. Not sure how far forward you'd have to go.

so how comes panis(i think) always starts halfway down his box????? this is where my confusion comes from, if it isn't fear of a false start that makes him give up 4 metres then what is it?????
:confused: :confused:

dave

Ich bin ein Mod

24-05-2004, 11:12

so how comes panis(i think) always starts halfway down his box????? this is where my confusion comes from, if it isn't fear of a false start that makes him give up 4 metres then what is it?????
:confused: :confused:

dave
Because he's shit and can't even line his car up properly?

I'm not entirely sure Michael was off the racing line before he locked up, the TV pics were not entirely helpful as he was already locked up by the time you saw him. Montoya is a prick and its not the first time he's done stupid things in a grand prix, I fear that it'll only be a matter of time before he causes someone serious injury or even death in an F1 car. The worst thing is he's almost revered for this stupidity as apparently it shows "character". Bollocks

How can you say that you are not sure that Sato jumped the start? He was at least 20 mph quicker than everyone else st the start and you don't get that from just being quick at getting away. Plus there was the barge into Schumi at the first corner - had the roles been reversed all you would have heard would have been "typical arrogant Schumacher pushing people about".

Ralf Schumacher - what a prat

Biggest surprise of the weekend: finding myself agreeing with what Coulthard had to say about Sato. There was no way he could have made it to the end of the gp, his car was constantly smoking and his excuse of "I was just racing" is really not good enough.

g force

24-05-2004, 11:26

Agree with the Sato thing - the car was clearly smoking on the warm up lap FFS!

IBEM - I think people are over reacting. Montoya apologised to Ferrari saying he tried to avoid MS but couldn't. I still think testing your brakes in a dark tunnel that has a blind bend is asking for trouble. Rubens also complained of a locking left front wheel so perhaps they had problems getting the brakes up to temprature?

According to JPM, Michael moved to the right as he came up alongside him so he had nowhere to go and if that's the case you've got wonder what the hell they were playing at. Like you say the TV pictures are hard to judge so we'll never really know.

They're as bad as each other IMO and i've lost respect for both of them since the beginning of this season due to these, frankly pathetic squabbles over who did what to whom. What goes around comes around - you move across under braking and it will come back on you, you block someone in a race, someone else will block you. That's the nature of F1.

As for unsafe, I disagree, JPM's raced on Ovals at over 200 mph with guys 5 inches from his wheels and never caused an accident. I'd say BAR letting Sato start was unsafe and thankfully Fisi managed to walk away from the crash. Ralfs actions were equally unsafe and cost Alonso a possible win too.

MS will win the WDC, we all know that.

Ich bin ein Mod

24-05-2004, 11:31

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 11:52

I'm not entirely sure Michael was off the racing line before he locked up, the TV pics were not entirely helpful as he was already locked up by the time you saw him. Montoya is a prick and its not the first time he's done stupid things in a grand prix, I fear that it'll only be a matter of time before he causes someone serious injury or even death in an F1 car. The worst thing is he's almost revered for this stupidity as apparently it shows "character". Bollocks

nah your chatting bollocks shumi is know for doing this it is a deliberate attempt to force off the person behind to pang off the wall, it's an old tactic he was doing it in the tunnel the least well lit part of the track, (seeing is diffcult in that part of the track on a clear day at 30 mph let alone at 65 to 70, shumi put a spurt on then breaked late and didn't allow for the driver behind, rule number one in racing is make usre you are aware of the people behind you, the car was out there was little need to warm up his breaks there as he had a thrid of the track in clear light to do so left ot go ample to warm up his breaks to near opperating tempreture (around 500 50 600 degrees or so fromt he 150 to 200 that they would have been) shumi made the classic error of under estimating his brake temp (hence the lock up) and then sprited off know that the person behind would have to match his pace as they could be no over taking, montoya moved over to the right seeing that shumi was doing and it was shumi attempting to slam the door to prevent him over taking summit which if he had though about it longer he would have realised that montoya couldn't do as it was still under pace car he over corrected as the cars contacted and as a result (remeber this was all at around 50 to 60 mph and under breaking to perhaps less not a racing speeds) then he glanced off the barrier as a result of his stupid and deliberate manuver.

Lest we forget shumi is not exactly whiter than white when it comes to dirty tricks, he played a dangerous hand and lost, though.

At the end of the day montoya was not to blame i dare say that the stewards will say the same too, as it goes i'm glad it happened there would have been as much of an exciting race.

ralf should have moved ovr but i reckon it is likely that he didn't intend to slow as he did but missed a gear and this stuttered the car (he was having gear box trouble after all) if anythign williams should be penalised for allowing the car to conitnue in a dnagerous condition as it clearly proved to be but not for montoya, perhaps when you put away your Ferrari supporters cap AKA shumi fan club cap back down you'll realise that this was the case... ;)

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 11:57

in fact the stewards now say it was a racing incident ...

http://www.itv-f1.com/news/news_story/21330

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 12:01

Yeah, but it's the way they go so over the top on him, like they did with Hill that makes you end up hating the guy through no fault of his own

if you're an arse i think that clearly yesterday shows the caliber of dirver button is...

Ich bin ein Mod

24-05-2004, 12:04

g force

24-05-2004, 13:17

Yeah I agree and to be fair Monotya has come in for a great deal of criticism (ie the Rubens incident last season), although I think that MS has done similar moves and gotten away with it.

I'm not going to start MS bashing - he's a supreme driver, one of the best ever and most of the tiome he's a joy to watch. This time however I think he risked something becuase he knew he didn't have the car to win and it failed.

And as for Button - I can see why people are annoyed at the ITV crew but they're a british channel and they'll always play up the british drivers. Button has been utter class this season, like Alonso was last year - they both have the luck to be driving good cars.

But this season JB has proven the doubters wrong. I don't think he'll be WDC but that doesn't mean he isn't a good driver! Look at all the so called "natrually fast" drivers like Massa, Sato - speed isn't everything you have to be smooth.

He's developed what was a dog of a car last year that spent most of the season battling Jaguar into a pole sitting, fast car. The results speak for themselves - he forced MS into a mistake in qualifying in San Marino, he drove the bollocks off the car yesterday in what is generally acknowledged as one of the toughest races in the calender.

Criticse by all means, but I think respect is due for performances to date.

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 15:32

I'm not absolving Schumi of all blame at all, read my posts and you'll see that. All I said was the pictures were inconclusive and that Montoya has been guilty of stupidity this season. I put away my Ferrari bias for this and I still think there was a bit of both to blame.

All I'm asking for is some fairness, Schumi has been tarred as a "dirty" driver before, if others do the same then they should be subjected to the same standards

shumi is a dirty driver, speaking as one who knows the renualt team (formerly the benetton team) and jordon (teams shumi drove for) personaly, in fact i'd go so far as to say his first wins of the WDC in the benetton should be scrubbed from the record for all time...

If as is touted he is one of the best and If he is a supreme driver (which he isn't he is cetainly no prost, senna, fangio birkin etc, i might be the new mansell but then that goes to show... if he is the uber driver that is claimed or even half as good he will have know what would happen when he put the ludicroius spurt followed by the heavy breaking, with a car behind him, he will have know that this would mena the driver behind would have to take evasive action and his hope i would think was to cause enough of an incident as to involve alonso/trulli and therefore put him back in the race... knowing that sudden incident would likely catch them out, that was his intent i'm sure of it, speaking as a frequent racng driver it was intentional he would have know the reaction and action breaking that sharply would have caused.

One thing he is regardless of whether he is as great as people say he is, is he is certainly the most calulated/ing driver on the circuit.... he would have worked out what the consiquneces of his acitons were and thought he would have got away with it... he was wrong.

out of intrest had montoya hit the wall due to this action and panged out of the race leaveing shumi to continue the race taken out alonso/trulli as a result of the accident which was the only other alternative of this incident would we all be saying that montoya was a 'dirty driver' ? or would shumi have had the deserved 2 race ban and ferrari fans would have had to suck it down...

mears

24-05-2004, 15:38

Yes, Montaoya never caused an accident in CART, but then he was enjoying success. In F1, I feel that we are seeing the dark side of JPM, one in which he is resorting to desperate, very stupid and ultimately dangerous manouvers in a vain attempt to claw his way to the top of the pile.

Yes, Schumacher willl win the WDC, but I was willing him on yesterday (instead of usually wanting either Ferrari to win) to get the record for 6 wins in the first 6 races. He probably was somewhat to blame, but Montoya was a very stupid boy.

Michael Andretti and Dario Franchitti might disagree about Juan Pablo never causing any accidents. Montoya could be very agressive in CART. He would squeeze other drivers on high speed ovals as well. Stupid sometimes but he always had plenty of balls.

the B

24-05-2004, 15:44

Squirting then braking to warm the brakes and tyres is something everyone would have been doing all the time the SC was out.

Montoya shouldn't been in a position or speed to hit Schumacher.

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 15:46

Squirting then braking to warm the brakes and tyres is something everyone would have been doing all the time the SC was out.

Montoya shouldn't been in a position or speed to hit Schumacher.

don't be an arse shumi cut into him to close the door he went into him becuase shumi put his car in the fucking way... :rolleyes:

fucking ferriari fans :mad: no concept of driving....grrrr

the B

24-05-2004, 15:57

Car in the way? :confused:

Most of the circuit doesn't allow for two cars to go along comfortably side by side - not even close.

red rose

24-05-2004, 16:00

I think the important point is that montoya has accepted responsibilty and apologised.

I dont think the angle of the camera in the tunnel gives an accurate view of what happened.

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 16:20

Car in the way? :confused:

Most of the circuit doesn't allow for two cars to go along comfortably side by side - not even close.

i think you are talking out of your hat have you been to the circuit? the track there in the tunnel is 47 foot wide the same width as a wide road like say park lane it is adiquate to get two f1 cars some 6 1/2 foot no more wide 2 abreast and then have motor cycle out riders...

Ijet...

this still doesn't change the fact that shumi changed direction from the outter edge which due to marbels he had no reason to be to then be up close to the wall the only exucse for this is shutting the door to prevent an over taking manuveur, it's text book defensive driving when racing...

but of course what would a racing diver of nearly 14 years know about that over a ferriari fan...

I think the important point is that montoya has accepted responsibilty and apologised.

in what world did he?

fuck all on the bbc, itv, website and certianly fuck all on planet f1... so unless you have some secret message system, it is clear he isn't accepting responsiblity for it, he has said he was sorry that it happened this is not the same at all...

I dont think the angle of the camera in the tunnel gives an accurate view of what happened.

not for you but as some one who knows the circuit well and also has the driving exerince to know how to go round it i'm afraid it was blatently shumis fault...every step of the way call it how you want as an arm chair general but anyone with racing experince of monte carlo will tell you the same.

shumi fucked up in the tunnel, and the stewards said as much in their report...

http://www.planet-f1.com/news/story_15688.shtml

Schumi braked behind the safety car while coming through the tunnel and was collected by Montoya when the Colombian was forced up alongside the F2004 because of Schumacher’s sudden drop in pace.

fucking ferriari fans :mad: :rolleyes: arm chair generals :p