2004 F1 Championship [Archive] - Page 2

g force

24-05-2004, 16:28

Some quality quotes here:

BBC story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/3740579.stm)

Montoya said: "Michael braked very hard as he was warming up his brakes and I moved to the right side of the track to avoid him.

"But the gap narrowed and we touched. It has been quite a few times that he has been doing that. He has been lucky and getting away with it.

"I tried to avoid him as much as I could. I put the car against the wall. Where else am I supposed to go? Over the wall, just to let Michael by?"

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 16:35

exactly...

i don't think much of montoya tbh he has been the preppy boy blunder since he joined f1 a little to eger and little to keen and not sensible enough but that said he is not the bad driver ferriari fans would have him painted...

tbh if i wasn't fro trulie alonso and to a certain extent button (who still needs to click a bit more with that care but is getting there...) then f1 would be pointless square jaw just needs to fuck off now... leave f1 you myopic fuck... god i hate coultard...

the B

24-05-2004, 16:55

47ft wide?! You're shitting me right? It's about 2 and bit standard lanes wide. (Might be 47ft wide if you include the bit behind the barrier (and the barrier itself - and the overhand out towards the sea...but I'm assuming that bit is best excluded for this)

The outside of the tunnel area can be scrubbed effectively because it is loaded with rubber marbles/dust/other crap. This is a fairly significant part of the tunnel. Ultimately, there is one optimum line through there and two cars can't be on it at once.

The stewards called it a racing incident - ie. there isn't enough blame one way to inflict a penalty.

Why is Montoya not concentrating/travelling such that he might cause an accident when under SC conditions? Is there an explanation? If he had done this immediately when stewards were on track...

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 19:21

get off your ferriari soap box and look at the words used in the report, forced along side

see this suggest that this was not the actions of a driver under control of their vehicle ...

the B

24-05-2004, 19:48

That's not the actual Stewards' report - Montoya should have been able to reduce his speed enough, he was in the area of the accident that caused the safety car to come out, slowly down in the second half of the tunnel - where it happened - is the a sensible thing to do don't you think?

Ich bin ein Mod

24-05-2004, 21:25

Let's get off your high horse here for a minute garf and think about this.

If you were travelling down a road and braked suddenly and I ran into the back of you, whose fault is it?

And Schumacher is no more a dirty driver than anybody else in F1, just his incidents have been a lot higher profile than most. And as for stating that you think his first championship win should be struck off the record, do you think that we should take one of Senna's titles off him. After all, he did the same to Prost as Schumi did to Hill.

And as for Schumacher not being a great, you're having a laugh aren't you? Even the most ardent Schumi-hater has to admit that having the most wins, most championships, most points, highest average points scored in a race etc somewhat elevates him to great status.

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 22:24

that's not the case if i was racing and i was under safety car on a slippery bit of the track in the dark unlit area of the track i would be critically aware of what was behind me, as shumi would have been i would also know that if Montoya came off there was a high likely hood that he would take out trulli and possibly alsono too thus allowing me to 'win', clever tactics but poor race craft...

shumi knew what he was doing, the safety car was coming in that lap it was 3 turns away from pulling off and would have been accelerating to around 60 to 70 mph to allow the drivers a build up to racing speeds, if the race leader (the car which has to control the pack) accelerates all others cars will follow, as this is a sign that this lead in period has started, if that leader then brakes suddenly for no good reason then you take avoiding action such as move to the left of right (which Montoya did) and then you as the car in front use you mirrors to make sure you go in the other direction. good race craft.

shumi shut the door on Montoya thus causing the incident had he not been protective of his line (which he had no need to be as Montoya would have to had dropped back into his place due to safety car conditions) and stuck tot he line he had taken rather than coming across the nose and as a result front end of Montoya, then he wouldn't have been hit... bad race craft.

so lets look again, if you cut some one up and they go into the back of you in race conditions or on the road whose fault is it again the guy behinds?

hope for your sake out on the road that you don't try and use that as an excuse in court... you are liable not to get away with it, believe me...

as for the high horse, well it's the arm chair generals (and funnily enough also the Ferrari fans too) trying to justify what was an appalling piece of driving in order to let their beloved off the hook...

for the record i think that only senna has the dubious honour of having taken as many people out of a race via dirty tactics, least we forget the number of times shumi has punted some one off the track or caused an accident by the systematic bunching/deliberate use of the over braking technique to cause those behind to run out of road...

if shumi was as great a driver, and more importantly had a better sense of sportsmanship then he would have to resort to the by any means necessary school of racing... again bad race craft...

but hey wadda i know it's not like i race cars or anything right....oh wait i do...

do you?

in fact exactly what are your race craft qualifications other than arm chair pundit...????

the B

24-05-2004, 22:32

Because garf is obviously the master of racing :rolleyes:

Let's all bow down now :p

Montoya was approaching the accident spot that brought out the safety car - why was he travelling at such a high speed without the ability to slow down quickly? Is there any explanation - a good one - at all?

The tunnel was the scene of the accident earlier, there would have been the usual marbles/dust and bits of carbon fibre on the left side of the race track as well as possibly people...this kind of limits the safe width of the tunnel doesn't it garf? Oh wise racer...surely you would agree?

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 22:37

And as for Schumacher not being a great, you're having a laugh aren't you? Even the most ardent Schumi-hater has to admit that having the most wins, most championships, most points, highest average points scored in a race etc somewhat elevates him to great status.

really well let's look at what he's won after the benetton years shall we becuase there was no way in hell you are ever gonna convice me, or indeed anyone who know the team that the car was legal duing that period... so the juries out on that one wins by good race craft yup i'll agree he has had some blinding races but frankly the last two seasons he hasn't been racing he hasn't had the competition to actually allow him to race...

going round the track and having a reliable and more importantly a much much faster car than anyone else is not racing.

If you were the worst driver in the world but could keep it on the track and you were given a bugatti Veyron and the rest of the pack had high powered vw beetles would it be your great driving skill or your more powerful car that allowed you to win time after time...

shumi has been in many ways the worst thing to have happened to F1 in a long time, he doesn't race when he can coast, only ever put's in the minimum effort to make sure he's at the top of the pile... senna whom he's often compared to would race himself lap after lap breaking speed records lap records etc not shumi can't be arsed...

shumi is much more like fangio, in that he got lucky a lot and didn't necessarily live up to the accolades that a lot of people gave him...

as for would i have stripped senna, well let's look at the history books, he was stripped of the points for his prost incident but allowed to keep the title as prost couldn't win the championship as it was the last race, this hasn't happened to shumi, had senna lived then i doubt that shumi would have had the WC so many times though maybe the last few years as senna would have retired by now...

the B

24-05-2004, 22:43

The Ferrari was a great car in the 96 season wasn't it Garf :rolleyes:

Still managed to win some GPs though...as early as the third GP of the season I think in Argentina?

While I admit Schumacher has a rather 'interesting'/dodgy/unsportsman relationship with his team mates at Ferrari - they've all been obviously slower than him...by some margin.

Was the Ferrari the best car on the grid in 2000 and 2001? :confused:

In the 1995 season, did Schumacher only just win that title? Didn't look too close to me...

If Schumacher doesn't go for fast laps? Why has he got the highest number of fastest laps recorded during a grand prix compared to any other driver by some way...?

I'm not sure he's better than Senna, I think they are of different 'eras' and any comparison is just speculative guff really...they are both great drivers in my opinion.

Ich bin ein Mod

24-05-2004, 22:43

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 22:43

Because garf is obviously the master of racing :rolleyes:

Let's all bow down now :p

shut up you cretin you racing knowlege is arm chair pundit boy?

i'm giving an opinion based on years of race craft and experince yours is based on .... oh that's right the telly... good one :rolleyes:

Montoya was approaching the accident spot that brought out the safety car - why was he travelling at such a high speed without the ability to slow down quickly? Is there any explanation - a good one - at all?

yes as i have explained above shall we repeat the racing lesson for those of us who have reading difficulites...

if the race leader (the car which has to control the pack) accelerates all others cars will follow, as this is a sign that this lead in period has started,

The tunnel was the scene of the accident earlier, there would have been the usual marbles/dust and bits of carbon fibre on the left side of the race track as well as possibly people...this kind of limits the safe width of the tunnel doesn't it garf? Oh wise racer...surely you would agree

true enough except for one valuable point you seem to forget the safety car was coming in that lap therefore the knew the track was clear otherwise the safety car, you know the car what is designed to limit the racing speeds to a duh! safe limit in the event of an incident, was being removed...

Jesus b do you even think before you post or is it just the effervescent tide of illogical crap that you cannot stem that flows from your keyboard in one never ending, and frankly ludicrous monologue???

oh wise arm chair pundit???

Ich bin ein Mod

24-05-2004, 22:48

shumi has been in many ways the worst thing to have happened to F1 in a long time, he doesn't race when he can coast, only ever put's in the minimum effort to make sure he's at the top of the pile... senna whom he's often compared to would race himself lap after lap breaking speed records lap records etc not shumi can't be arsed...

Why is he at fault because there's no competition?

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 22:51

Garf, calm down ffs! I'm sorry that I'm not some kind of uber racing god, I was just calling things as I saw them. Your constant resort to labelling me as an "arm chair general" is getting rather boring. Or am I not allowed to comment on anything: no comments on films as I'm not a director, no comments on footballers as I'm not a pro, no comments on books as I'm not a writer. Get a grip.

What are James Allan's race craft qualifications come to think of that?

And please stop twisting my words, its the mark of someone who is resorting to "win at all costs". i didn't sya anything about cutting someone up, maybe it wasn't the best analogy but hey whatever.

nah I'm just saying this constant defence of what was a very stoopid error of judgement (or as i suspect a deliberate attempt to cause Montoya to take out Alonso) back fired on shumi and the oh but he's the greatest driver int he world crap seems to blind a lot of people in to saying it can't have been shumi who was at fault that dastardly Montoya he's the bad un, when it simply isn't the case ...

as for james allen very little and it shows...

as for twisting your words i did nothing of the sort i maintain that shumi will do whatever it takes to win at any cost, (you don't persuade one of the most historic teams in the f1 series to change things if you aren't...)

tbh I'm even more annoyed because i don' think that Montoya is a great driver either just an average cart driver, who got lucky... (but the critic of him here is some what shumi flag waving tbh)

the B

24-05-2004, 22:51

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 22:53

Why is he at fault because there's no competition?

it's not that theres not competition driver wise it's that the other manufacturers cannot compete on a sponsor ship level and thus a finances level, not directly shumis fault no but having the clout of the previous ill gotten gains from the 'won by cheating' world championships under his belt certainly help secure that cash..

Ich bin ein Mod

24-05-2004, 22:56

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 23:07

Why does a backmarker - a lapped car - need to be chasing after the leader? To unlap himself? Point? Is there any? Did Montoya think he could reasonably overtake Schumacher, race all the way around the race track in 22 laps I think and then overtake for position?

gain what postition ?

under safety car rules there is not over taking allowed which allows the over taker to gain from the manoeuvre what the fuck are you chatting??

Safety car coming in doesn't mean the track has no hazards. You can never be entirely sure every little flake of carbon fibre has been removed - the rubber marbles from grained tyres would still be there...

pulling in the safty car means that the track is of a condition where 'racing' can continue, of course you are not going to pick up every little shard you never do but all the main pieces will be picked up in certain cases they even hoover with the fucking track cleaner cart things if there is a need and an opening in the barriers to get one on and off the track in time...

again you simply have no clue...

In general, the tunnel isn't a slippery part of the Monaco circuit usually...the rubber tends to get laid down there in quite well because it's the one part of the track where aeros will affect the tyres to get rubber down best. Also, it being a high speed corner, mechanical forces also get some rubber down.

crap of the racing line it is one of the worst places for adhesion for several reasons one it's width, two it covered thus making the debris lie around far more than on more exposed and winder areas of the track and three because it is covered there is a distinct heat difference in the temperature of the track which cools the tyres thus providing less adhesion (also it actually dips before cresting ever so slightly in the middle before going down hill at a far greater angle than is shown on TV the chicane at the bottom is actually tighter as a result of the down hill forward momentum which is why they cut back the wall after Alexander wursts accident in the tunnel there a few years ago...)

Because you have done some racing in cars remotely similar to F1 cars your opinion just has to be correct over mine every time does it

erm yes actually f3, zip cart, test drive the Bentley gt, whole host of vintage cars, classics and so on as well as Indy cars from the 1960's to the 1980's and also driven 2 different f1 cars the Jordan 2 years ago and last years Benetton at the end of last years season... all at racing speeds all with great care (none of them have been mine) all aside from the Jordan which was jerky as fuck (very unbalanced chassis) were incredible to drive, and very quick... all on a verity of circuits.

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 23:11

Actually I have to back the B up a bit on this one garf, if not quite so cheekily. I find it a bit condescending having my opinion ridiculed as I'm not one of the privileged few who have had the chance to race. By your reasoning, a vast majority of the people who watch F1 should have absolutely no opinion on who is at fault at an accident. Which I find somewhat, hmm ... elitest

that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that i really don't like the attitude portrayed here of well Montoya was wrong and shumi was right when that wasn't the case, being star struck is just as elitist as you feel i am being, from a racing perspective I'm afraid shumi was in the wrong. as a fan that might been seen in a different light so be it...

ridiculing those who have knowledge on the sport from a technical POV as it doesn't fit the fan boy mentality is also elietist...

btw i reckon button will break his duck next weekend... ;)

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 23:17

Because you have done some racing in cars remotely similar to F1 cars your opinion just has to be correct over mine every time does it?

at the end of the day i do it regularly enough to know good an bad race craft on the track how you should race to have care and attention for others on the track and how to win at all costs this has bugger all to do with being right it's simple fact, your opinion is ill informed based on what can only be described as a pundit's knowledge, mine is based on the experience of racing and having to learn how to control a car out on the track.

I'll dare say there are few areas that your knowledge of things worldly wouldn't beat me hands down b but about racing you ain't even gonna come close. soz:)

the B

24-05-2004, 23:21

Ich bin ein Mod

24-05-2004, 23:24

that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that i really don't like the attitude portrayed here of well Montoya was wrong and shumi was right when that wasn't the case, being star struck is just as elitist as you feel i am being, from a racing perspective I'm afraid shumi was in the wrong. as a fan that might been seen in a different light so be it...

ridiculing those who have knowledge on the sport from a technical POV as it doesn't fit the fan boy mentality is also elietist

Where exactly have I ridiculed you? The pervading attitude (from me at least,and the coverage, and the stewards) is that Schumi was in the wrong, as was Montoya.

Maybe I'm just tired now but seeing as how your first comment on this topic was "na your chatting bollocks" I'm a bit tetchy. Perhaps a line should be drawn under this incident before this thread degenerats into an all-out mudslinging match (by some standards it already has)

(As for the Senna Prost thing though, didn't Senna drive into Prost so that Prost couldn't win the championship. Therefore although Senna was stripped of his points, Prost lost out as he didn't score any points at the last race as a direct result of Senna's actions. Wheras if Prost had gone on to win and Senna not scored, Prost would have been champion? Or am I remembering it wrongly?)

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 23:25

Why was Montoya chasing Schumacher? Was there any point staying 'close' to him?

If Schumacher was speeding up so as to make a break from the pack - why is Montoya going to chase him down closely? Why does Montoya need to be travelling fast enough and close with the SC out to be able to overtake him (when he's not allowed to do so) - that's the sodding point...Montoya shouldn't have been where he was at the speed he was...

Surely with that incredible list of racing achievements you can try and tell us what Montoya was doing - after all - you told us what Michael was doing...even though I don't think Michael is dumb enough to ignore the principle of the conservation of momentum in that 'plan' he apparently had...maybe you missed it out...actually, you're the genius, you can't have missed it out right?

shumi knew what he was doing, the safety car was coming in that lap it was 3 turns away from pulling off and would have been accelerating to around 60 to 70 mph to allow the drivers a build up to racing speeds, if the race leader (the car which has to control the pack) accelerates all others cars will follow, as this is a sign that this lead in period has started, if that leader then brakes suddenly for no good reason then you take avoiding action such as move to the left of right (which Montoya did) and then you as the car in front use you mirrors to make sure you go in the other direction.

what part of this do you not understand b?

is it the explaintion part or the fact that it answers you question :confused: :rolleyes:

I still stand by the suggestion that the tunnel at Monaco is not wide enough for two F1 cars to safely driver through - or want to drive through.

then your are wrong...

The tunnel is a confined environment with lots of fast objects passing through it punching 'holes' in the air. It gets fairly windy actually...I wasn't talking about off the racing line anyway so I don't quite get your point...

on the racing line no where else the aero dynamics of the cars mean they 'suck' most of the air to them thus creating that thing they call down force....

Wurz's accident had not much to do with the wall moving back really - it's not like Wurz was going to recover the car in that incident given that he left the tunnel without front wheels in that accident...

the wall was moved back due to wursts accident and the fact he spear headed it with his car it didn't physically move when he hit it it was removed and the track altered as a result of his accident, i dare say by diggers and workmen... :rolleyes:

edited for clarity...

the B

24-05-2004, 23:29

On the Senna/Prost thing - Senna punted Prost off at Casino Triangle in 1989. He rejoined and won but got DQed. Prost won the title. Next year, back at Suzuka, Senna punted Prost off again but didn't get DQed and so won the title.

Ich bin ein Mod

24-05-2004, 23:30

what part of this do you not understand b?

The fact that it was 4 corners away from pulling off ;)

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 23:33

Where exactly have I ridiculed you? The pervading attitude (from me at least,and the coverage, and the stewards) is that Schumi was in the wrong, as was Montoya.

Maybe I'm just tired now but seeing as how your first comment on this topic was "na your chatting bollocks" I'm a bit tetchy. Perhaps a line should be drawn under this incident before this thread degenerats into an all-out mudslinging match (by some standards it already has)

(As for the Senna Prost thing though, didn't Senna drive into Prost so that Prost couldn't win the championship. Therefore although Senna was stripped of his points, Prost lost out as he didn't score any points at the last race as a direct result of Senna's actions. Wheras if Prost had gone on to win and Senna not scored, Prost would have been champion? Or am I remembering it wrongly?)

fair enough i apologise the nah it was bollocks was light hearted before eltechnico the b got all nonsense...

yes he was stripped of the points for the race as a result but as it was the final race it made no odds prost could come back as it were as they had run out of season...

the B

24-05-2004, 23:34

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 23:34

The fact that it was 4 corners away from pulling off ;)

nope 3 ;)

the pits the safety car pulls into the pits ;)

it doesn't go round the last corner or else they would have to complete a further lap under the safety car...

Ich bin ein Mod

24-05-2004, 23:36

The chicane at the exit from tunnel
The turn at the end of that straight
Another chicane
the penultimate corner

the B

24-05-2004, 23:37

Garf - are you suggesting there's no wind effected created by an F1 car as it moves through the tunnel?

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 23:37

The SC was too close to Schumacher for him to start going off at racing speeds, Montoya should have known this and therefore known that Schumacher was not building up speed so as to suggest the SC was 'out of the equation' but to warm brakes/tyres.

The pit lane entrance is a long way from the tunnel...

is there an online link to the footage you'll see that there is at least a car and half worth of distance from the safety car and shumi more than enough distance with f1 braking speeds...

no fly wheel on the engines means that a release of the foot from the accelerator reduces speed dramatically even with out breaking it would be the equivalent of ripping the engine out of a road car at speed....

the B

24-05-2004, 23:39

3 corners (depending on how you define a corner maybe?)

Chicane, swimming pool, Rascas - turns in before Anthony Nogues.

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 23:40

The chicane at the exit from tunnel
The turn at the end of that straight
Another chicane
the penultimate corner

doesn't go round the penultimate corner as it goes into the pits... ;)

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 23:41

3 corners (depending on how you define a corner maybe?)

Chicane, swimming pool, Rascas - turns in before Anthony Nogues.

the bend isn't really a corner in any real sense you can go through it straight looks bent on the map but isn't actually a corner as such

the B

24-05-2004, 23:41

You think between the period of the tunnel and the SC turning in...an F1 car couldn't make the distance of 1.5 F1 cars over the SC?

Ich bin ein Mod

24-05-2004, 23:41

3 corners (depending on how you define a corner maybe?)

Chicane, swimming pool, Rascas - turns in before Anthony Nogues.

http://www.itv-f1.com/images/layout_new/circuits04/monaco_track.gif

Looks like 4 to me, but as you say depends on how you define a corner.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, was only meant as a light-hearted diversion form us all screaming at each other calling folk idiots

and the pic doesn't work anyway! ach well, I'm off to bed before I prove that Silverstone really is shit ;)

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 23:43

Garf - are you suggesting there's no wind effected created by an F1 car as it moves through the tunnel?

some but not enough to clear the debris, i was suggesting that the open areas of the track are subject to climatic winds created by the elements the hair pin for instance is very windy thus is more likely to be clearer of debris than inside the tunnel

the B

24-05-2004, 23:43

The defintion of a corner is pretty murky in the F1 world afaik...Bahrain has a variable number of corners depending on which team you are with...

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 23:45

http://www.itv-f1.com/images/layout_new/circuits04/monaco_track.gif

Looks like 4 to me, but as you say depends on how you define a corner.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, was only meant as a light-hearted diversion form us all screaming at each other calling folk idiots

and the pic doesn't work anyway! ach well, I'm off to bed before I prove that Silverstone really is shit ;)
surely that's just a light hearted diversion from the racing ??

after all it's a forgone conclusion that shumi will be out for montoya blood next race and that Ferrari will prolly win again this year...

GarfieldLeChat

24-05-2004, 23:46

The defintion of a corner is pretty murky in the F1 world afaik...Bahrain has a variable number of corners depending on which team you are with...

if you can drive through it straight it ain't a corner ;) :D

Ich bin ein Mod

24-05-2004, 23:46

And now the pic works!

Anyway, i still maintain that the car would go round the penultimate corner as it leads into the pit lane entrance

the B

24-05-2004, 23:46

Still looks like 3 corners on that map...when you said 4 I thought you might still be including the tunnel...carbon fibre is pretty light - the shards would weigh next to nothing and I reckon they'd move in fairly light wind.

Sadly, I don't have my own wind tunnel of carbon fibre shards to test this with in a physics experiment sort of sense.

the B

24-05-2004, 23:49

There are some straights you don't go 'straight' on to avoid bumps on the track or you drift across the track to line up for the following corner - thinking of Monza before the last corner (Paribolica?)

There are many others I think...

And there is definately some 'indecision' over how many corners there are in Bahrain.

Ich bin ein Mod

24-05-2004, 23:55

Righty, here's where I conclusively prove I'm wrong

The two red lines are the position of the sc and the pit entry (roughly)

4 corners, unless I'm just really stupid. I mean really really stupid

Wowbagger

25-05-2004, 02:30

Here's a better plan.

http://www.racingcircuits.net/Monaco/Monte%20Carlo%202004.gif

Nouvelle Chicane, Tabac, the two Piscine chicanes (quick left-right, short straight, arsehole right-left), Rascasse, pits before Anthony Noghes. That's five.

GarfieldLeChat

25-05-2004, 12:09

http://www.formula1.com/race/circuitmap/719.html

3 corners 3 chiccaines 4 if you include the swimming pool complex as a corner not as a chiccanine...to clarify tradtitionaly the swimming pool was just a corner... not a chiccaine...

Nurburgring then?

shumi barrachello then button?

or will there be further upset?

will jaguaer have foudn the missing diamonds?

will max moseley insist that the new teams which he want's introduced into F1 by next season include skoda (just kidding ;))?

the B

25-05-2004, 12:17

Provided Montoya doesn't punt Schumacher off like last year...I can see Schumacher winning it...

I think Jaguar recovered the diamond off Klien's car...and the next new team will probably be Arden. Roman Abramovich has long been thought of as someone who would be interested in attempt to strengthen the position of a Moscow GP but hopes(?) faded after he bought up Chelsea though he was at Monaco over the weekend...and Mosley reckons he might be able to reduce the $40 million entry fee for an F1 team which might help...(not a fan of Mosley)

g force

25-05-2004, 12:44

GarfieldLeChat

25-05-2004, 19:32

Yep seems Arden are wanting to join and Mad Max has said the bond can be dropped so long as teams can provide a 5 year plan - apparently the bond only exists so there aren't lots of slow teams in it one year then buggering off - not sure i entirely believe that!

I think a couple of F3/3000 teams stepping up would be great get soem Dallara's in there, maybe SuperNova be a good place for people like Panis and DC who don't want to end their careers to end to help develop a new car.

If the Audi group enter i'd expect it to be with Audi badging - Skoda are in the WRC and Audi is the groups 'prestige' brand.

Hmmm..."European" GP - I think it will be Schumacher, Button, Trulli. I can't see the Williams liking this track. Think Renault will be quick, BAR will be well on the pace, maybe a dark horse in Sauber - the car seems to be getting better.

Did Jag find the diamond? As of yesterday it was still missing.... :D

can't see that audi would enter they have pulled out of all competative racing atm they were touting a vw f1 car until the bentley team had it's plug pulled they have now sold the ex toms racing factory where there cars were made and the principal director and designers of rtn (race technologies norfolk) have now gone on to WTC can't see it myself. certainly hasn't been touted as such...

as for max you know who his dad was hint it's in the last name think of our favourate newpapers and their infamous 1932 headline....

the B

26-05-2004, 00:04

Silverstone to have a GP until 2006: http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040525/4/40zb.html

More copse, maggot, becketts, chapel, hanger straight, stowe, vale, club, abbey, farm , bridge, priory, broodlands, luffield, woodcote...*yawns*

I don't tend to find the British GP at Silverstone that good anyway. Unless it rains ;)

GarfieldLeChat

26-05-2004, 07:14

same it's my favourite circuit to race on tbh but from a spectator view point is not terribly interesting tho

kained&able

26-05-2004, 10:55

47ft wide?! Y

The outside of the tunnel area can be scrubbed effectively because it is loaded with rubber marbles/dust/other crap. This is a fairly significant part of the tunnel. Ultimately, there is one optimum line through there and two cars can't be on it at once.

ahh so you belive in the racing line now then! good good.

dave

kained&able

26-05-2004, 11:06

ohh and abramivich was just in monoco to sign some kid that i've forgotten the name of from monocco. and possibly dechamps and all.

dave

g force

26-05-2004, 16:19

Or maybe he heard about the diamond and fancied a little bit more cash?!

Doubt he'd launch and F1 team though, at least not without significant support from either an engine manufactuer (and who wants a Ford engine) or a motorsport team which would involve buying said team, ie Arden, first.

Unless he can use his wealth to land a engine deal with someone big but even then I doubt Renault or Merc would want to supply a competitor team.

the B

27-05-2004, 09:15

Ferrari have a reasonable customer engine.

Any chance of rain for this grand prix? :confused: Haven't seen any weather reports/can't find any.

g force

27-05-2004, 09:23

True B, but they have a deal with Sauber which is mutually beneficial thanks to Bridgestone.

I can't see anyone wanting a Ford engine right now, because no matter how great a chassis they proudce they thing is a dog of a unit. Maybe Honda would think about helping out seeing as their BAR deal isn't finalised or they could go it alone using somone like Arden to develop the chassis and aero package.

There were rumours Nissan might give it a stab, as they're part-owned by Renault and re-badge the R engine for that purpose. They've been successful in most other forms of sport and are looking to build their brand.

I think Max is being overly optimistic - if I was thinking of entering F1 i'd hold fire until all the new rules are decided re one tyre company, brakes, gearboxes etc - no point wasting effort on something that could only be used for 1, maybe 2 seasons.

Come rain or shine only a crash will stop MS winning this weekend - he's the master of that track. The fight will be for the other podium places.

GarfieldLeChat

27-05-2004, 18:32

Come rain or shine only a crash will stop MS winning this weekend - he's the master of that track. The fight will be for the other podium places.

he fucking should be along with hockenhiem he helped to redesign it :D

the B

28-05-2004, 09:10

It's not like he redesigned it single handed - around the Nurburgring, he's heavily involved with the redesign of one 'Kurve'.

Free Practice times coming soon...

the B

28-05-2004, 10:44

Free Practice session 1 Times:
Davidson, M Schumacher, Barrichello in the 1:29s
Rest of field in the 1:31s or more...

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040528/23/42p4.html

Weather report: http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040528/23/42oh.html

Looks dry and fine all weekend.

g force

28-05-2004, 11:05

Fuck me Ant's only gone and broken the lap record!!!! :eek: Give him the BAR for next season.

I know it's only 1st free, but he manged second quickest in Monaco in the first time he'd ever been to the ciircuit and now this. AnYeah and i know he has a different engine blah, blah. Fact is he's beaten what is easily the best F1 car, and the best driver in his first time round the circuit in an F1 car. The kid has talent.

Plenty of rumours on the F1 sites about Webber replacing Trulli at Renault :(

kained&able

28-05-2004, 11:10

davidson over sato???? wont happen beacuse of honda i reckon they were keen on getting a jap driver into there car.

he will definately have a drive next year though. toyota or jaguar would be my bet.

shumacher will win next GP unless he crashes.

dave

g force

28-05-2004, 11:14

I know but thing is he'll do nothing in the Jag because that team is utter cack with no direction, bollocks engione and terrible handling. Toyota might be a better bet with Mike getting to design a car from scratch and with Ralf as a team mate.

Can't help but think Frank W must be taking a serious look at him though - he's learning the tracks, can obviously set a car up and would be cheap! Him and Webber or Heidfeld would make a good pairing I reckon - two hard chargers is exactly what they need.

Good job Ant doesn't really bring any sponsor money otherwise he might end up at Jordan, where good drivers go to be detroyed.

GarfieldLeChat

28-05-2004, 11:22

thats a bit harsh on jorden, they are always brasic but they are a hard working team, honda insisted on sato driving for them dispite the fact he was worse than their (jordens) test driver consecutivley, and tbh there's no reason to have sato in anyteam period he's shit, the onl reason he came back this season is that he found further cash and bought his way back into the team...

g force

28-05-2004, 12:46

the B

28-05-2004, 13:08

Prost winning in 96 as Ligier? Bit of a fluke...

g force

28-05-2004, 13:37

Fluke yeah, but the car was pretty good IIRC - may not have set F1 alight but it had the pace is comparison to Jordan today. Arrows were making slow progress up the field and then went out of business.

That was good news for Toyota, but really I can see Jordan going the same way - lacking in money, car is underdeveloped, one of the drivers is clearly not F1 standard, slipping further down the field. :(

g force

28-05-2004, 14:39

Friday's free practice times:

1. Kimi Raikkonen (Fin) McLaren 1:29.355
2. Jenson Button (GB) BAR 1:29.618
3. Ralf Schumacher (Ger) Williams1:29.677
4. David Coulthard (GB) McLaren 1:29.700
5. Jarno Trulli (Ita) Renault 1:29.919
6. Rubens Barrichello (Brz) Ferrari 1:29.943
*7. Anthony Davidson (GB) BAR 1:30.028
8. Fernando Alonso (Spa) Renault 1:30.163
9. Michael Schumacher (Ger Ferrari 1:30.227
10. Takuma Sato (Jpn) BAR 1:30.283
11. Juan Pablo Montoya (Col) Williams 1:30.337
12. Mark Webber (Aus) Jaguar 1:30.466
13. Olivier Panis (Fra) Toyota 1:30.497
14. Cristiano Da Matta (Brz) Toyota 1:30.531
*15. Ricardo Zonta (Brz) Toyota 1:30.949
16. Giancarlo Fisichella (Ita) Sauber 1:30.974
*17. Bjorn Wirdheim (Swe) Jaguar 1:31.780
*18. Timo Glock (Ger) Jordan 1:32.080
19. Christian Klien (Aut) Jaguar 1:32.217
20. Felipe Massa (Brz) Sauber 1:32.310
21. Gianmaria Bruni (Ita) Minardi 1:32.643
22. Zsolt Baumgartner (Hun) Minardi 1:32.986
23. Nick Heidfeld (Ger) Jordan 1:33.175
24. Giorgio Pantano (Ita) Jordan 1:33.393
*25. Bas Leinders (Bel) Minardi 1:34.538

* 3rd Car

Good to see Kimi up there and Jenson too. Schumi only did 9 laps so his time isn't relevant and Fisi's engine went 'pop!' so he'll be at the back i'd think

GarfieldLeChat

28-05-2004, 18:58

I used to like Jordan back in the early days.

But then I think EJ started losing the plot - the way he sacked Frentzen was totally and utterly out of order, considering he coudl have won the WDC. Then there was the whole Vodafone court case. They used to be a terrific team but they've lost the plot on the engine side and their strength, the chassis, has been lost to teams like Renault.

If EJ spent more time working on his team that biching about everything in F1 i'd have more respect but TBH I think he's turnmed into a bit of a twat.

I admire the team becuase they're struggling but if they don't do something soon I can see them leaving F1 - look at Prost - 96 the won a GP and had a rpetty decent car, then terminal decline. Ditto Arrows - acknowledged as having possible the best chassis thanks to Bruner but had no hope with the engine.

I'd love them to get a decent engine but when the Ford contract is up what they gonna do?

Garf - I agree on Sato but like Dave said it's a Honda thing. However, unless he starts getting results away from Suzuka they may replace him - the car is good enough in JB's hands, so they'll want him to score some points regularly or I can see him being out. Hopefully replaced with Ant but if not Heidfeld, or maybe Fisi?

i dunno the vodafone thing was a risky business tbh i think that they won on a technicality, eddie is a man of his word.

Frenzen was a useless arse at jorden (he cost them a car a race much like sato tbh) he wasn't trying and eddie had been fucked when damon mucked him around and wasn't about to be fucked over again. besides the sponsors were applying pressure to get rid of frenzen in place of said sato too, so as a business decsion i can see why he did it. jordens opperating budget is around 9 to 10 million a race this means they are constanly scraping along, if you look at ferriaris budget a race they will spend that on tools for a race let alone over a weekend .... (some where around 110 million a race)

they need sponsorship, have always thought had mercesdes not fuck jorden and allowed them to keep schumacher for the 5 races he paid for that would have made jorden and put enough money into their cars...

i reckon this year they simply don't havethe cahs and they are certianly getting the number 2 engines from honda (which they have to pay for...) so they really are doing very well for a team which can truely be said to be the only true shoe string team left...

Ich bin ein Mod

28-05-2004, 22:12

i reckon this year they simply don't havethe cahs and they are certianly getting the number 2 engines from honda (which they have to pay for...) so they really are doing very well for a team which can truely be said to be the only true shoe string team left...

Apart from Minardi that is?

GarfieldLeChat

28-05-2004, 22:14

they have a lot more cash thou :)

Ich bin ein Mod

28-05-2004, 22:44

In the grand scheme of F1 though, they are still a shoe-string team.

the B

29-05-2004, 15:14

Qualifying session 2 times: http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040529/23/43fr.html

M Schumacher, Sato, Trulli, Raikkonen, Button, Alonso, Barrichello, Montoya

Just two-thousands of a second between Trulli and Raikkonen and one-thousandth between Barrichello and Montoya.

New qualifying format may be introduced with two 20 minute sessions where cars are allowed to race for 'ultimate pace' in either the first or both sessions.

kained&able

29-05-2004, 16:49

how come baricello is doing so badly qualifying this year?????

not been toom nay ferrai one/twos this year.

dave

the B

29-05-2004, 16:54

Seems like Barrichello isn't that good in the F2004...being an average to good driver doesn't help...he's not that fast.

kained&able

29-05-2004, 16:57

he bloody well is!(fast)

i think the ferrai might be a bit to smooth for him its always been said he perfers a twitchy car that he can chcuck about a bit.

reckon its his last year for ferrai(which i cant spell today!) when is his contract up?

dave

the B

29-05-2004, 17:00

Think it's up in 2006 - so I don't think he's leaving soon...

kained&able

29-05-2004, 17:05

fair enough.

think hes gone very stale though. needs a new challenge and a team that actully like him rather then view him as a waterboy.

dave

the B

29-05-2004, 17:07

I think he'll retire once his contract his up, he has a family and all that.

the B

30-05-2004, 15:54

Sato can be about as dangerous as Montoya and Ralf it seems...at least Massa just takes his own car out of the GP without risking anyone elses' race...

Meanwhile, Ferrari one-two :D

Two roasted Mercedes engines...Fisi had a good race...

Safety car rules will change - http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040530/23/441u.html

No pitting until all cars are formed up and lights off late in the lap...

kained&able

30-05-2004, 16:50

yeah sato did a very silly thing indeed.

i thought he had made it stick to be fair though. shame.

not sure about the pit rules though, i mean what about schuduled stops????

if a car was due in on the next lap then they should surely be allowed in, maybe the should have to inform the race officials that they intend to make a pistop a lap before hand, or maybe if a car has less then 2laps of fuel remaining in the engine they should be allowed to pit under the safety car.

mclaren had better hope the new car is good.

the B

30-05-2004, 16:55

Sato was very very likely to collide with Barrichello doing a move like that, he made it "stick" in that Rubens tried to move as far to the left as possible...

On the pit rules under safety cars - I think the way it would work is that the pit lane entry would be a red light - so if you have a scheduled stop, you basically park your car outside the pit lane until the light goes green (when the cars form up behind the SC)

kained&able

30-05-2004, 18:38

that would mean that your at the back though! unless your allowed to feed back in at your position ebfore the saftey car or something.

thats not fair.

and yeah satos move was silly but i honestly thought he had got away with it at first.

dave

the B

30-05-2004, 23:37

You feed in at the back of the safety car pack...in terms of road distance (and even time) to the front, it's not a severe penalty...I'm sure it can't be too bad if all the teams agreed to it anyway...

the B

31-05-2004, 12:38

"I made a good start, but the race was nearly over at the first corner - if I hadn't opened the door, Sato would have taken me out. I was third behind him and Michael when, two corners later, he made a mistake, so I took the inside line through turn four, but he closed the door. His right front wheel hit my front left and I nearly lost the car. In the confusion, I pressed the pit-lane speed limiter button and that cost me a number of positions."

Another driver indicates something about Sato...

"Even though I was starting from eighth, I had a good start, but the accident at the first corner obviously compromised my race. When I made it to the first corner, Rubens Barrichello, who was in front of me, braked quite early and both Ralf and I locked the tyres. Then Ralf went for the outside and I stayed behind Rubens but, when I was going around the corner, Panis dived up the inside, hitting my front tyre which threw me straight into Ralf. A hairpin is always going to cause problems in a racing start."

I don't recall Panis hitting his front tyre...Montoya's car seemed to just go straight (as you might expect when the tyres lock up) and then into his team mate...

http://eur.news1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/ng/sp/crashnet/20040530/18/699444303.jpg

Seems like Panis wasn't that close during the incident anyway...

Ich bin ein Mod

31-05-2004, 14:27

The numerous replays seemed to just indicate that Montoya locked straight into Ralf with no assistance from Panis at all. It is possible though

red rose

31-05-2004, 14:33

It didnt look to me like panis had anything to do with it, not did I notice ralf locking his brakes.

I think in that quote montoya has managed to blame 3 other people :rolleyes:

g force

01-06-2004, 08:01

Well that was an okay-ish GP, but I still think the track should be scrapped.

I defended JPM after Monaco but that accident was all of his own making and he should have the decency to hold his hands up on this one - he tried to outbrake people and it didn't work.

Sato provied once again why experience is so important because that move was highly reckless and cost him a guaranteed podium (if the engine hadn't blown).

Great races by JB (again - proving he can scrap when he needs to - although the Minardi's did him no favours when he tried to lap them) Fisi too - I hope he can get out of Sauber to one of the decent seats and Trulli - I hope he can keep his seat becuase this year he's been much better than Alonso.

the B

02-06-2004, 00:11

MP4-19B (revised specification McLaren) tested at Silverstone today, first test and it was a tenth of a second slower than the R24 (Renault) - comparison is between Raikonnen and Alonso.

Not really the best comparison since Silverstone was somewhat damp at times and little running was done.

The MP4-19B is expected to be ready to race as early as the Silverstone GP funnily enough...

Sadly for McLaren, it's the same Mercedes engine in the back which has proven to be prone to blowing up...the MP4-19B seems to have a similar shape of engine cover as the R24 incidentally...

I don't think there is anything wrong the Nurburgring but it's not an important GP in my opinion. I can certainly see it being scrapped as soon as Schumacher retires.

Not sure JB had a good race, he was outdone by Sato - not something to be proud of and had a pretty unspectacular weekend all round.

kained&able

04-06-2004, 13:14

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=30301

what kimi says about the new mclaren.

also button wasn't outshone by sato. sato may have had a dnam good race but he didn't finish so button quite clearly did better then him. and since when has a poidium been unspectacular.

itv are reorting webber to either toyota or williams next year if jaguar finsih 6th in the constructors.

dave

g force

04-06-2004, 13:56

Webber to Toyota? Hmmm...I suppose the car could get better with Gascoigne overseeing the new model but that seems a bit of a risk. I expect him to driving a Williams or Renault. Flavio is playing a clever game to get his guy some $$$$ but he might not want to mess with Frank - he could Fisi and Hiedfeld for a fraction of the money.

Jag are royally screwed at the mo - HSBC are pulling their sponsorship at the end of the season so they'll need to get money from somewhere and I don't think Ford will be too chuffed at coughing it up. Plenty of rumours of them pulling out, but with the new engine rules coming in a few years they can, in theory, use the IRL engine as the basis for F1 - presuming they keep it as 2.4 V8.

As for JB - he had a good weekend - he finished 3rd. Sato may have been quick but it's all is own fault he didn't get 2nd. He had Rubens all he had to do was choose the correct place to overtake! As Brundle mentioned if you listen to the BAR Sato has the thing on the rev limiter constantly, straining the engine, whereas Button is far smoother in his acceleration. No surprise it blew!

the B

04-06-2004, 16:42

Well, Toyota does have one of the best engines according to the acoustics test and it has the second biggest budget - so it's kind of going down the BAR, throw lots of money route...

I think JB had a bad weekend, he got third but it was an unremarkable drive and he was (up until the engine blow up) beaten by his team mate.

I don't think Sato was going to overtake Rubens actually, he wasn't going to get him when he tried and by the next lap round, his tyres would have lost the performance edge.

Not sure about those differences in driving style, I don't remember it but hohum...

the B

06-06-2004, 17:18

Sato says he'll do his amateurish mistake again: http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=30335

Someone on Ernie's betting thread has put £500 on Trulli winning the Canadian GP...surely there's only the slimmest chance of that happening...

g force

07-06-2004, 08:24

£500 on Trulli....Well Renault traditionally does fairly well in Canada but lets face it unless MS gets punted off he's gonna win - Renualt, BAR, Williams fighting for the other places!!!!

B did you see ? I've really warmed to him but he did say that he felt Rubens could have made more room. Back in the studio Colin McRae, Plato (who is hardly one to talk), Herbert ande a few others said he was vastly talented but the move was never on and then made the rev limiter point again to explain engine failure.

Great chat about Ralf's inability to drive and how he's managing to talk his way out of every seat. Hebert said he must be kidding if he wants that much $$ for such poor results and thought he wouldn't even be in a "top" team next season. So Toyota it is then!

the B

07-06-2004, 09:51

Renault haven't done well in Canda in the past...haven't won there since 1994.

Canada is a low downforce, big on engine performance track and I can't see Renault doing that well there...I can see the Williams troubling them. On the betting shop thread I was tempted to put something on a Ferrari 1-2 but Barrichello has been rubbish at Canada...so I thought maybe Schumacher and Button - settled on Schumacher winning and getting the fastest lap...

g force

07-06-2004, 10:10

Yep seems like good money too judging by the thread! Button will be challenging but not winning, JPM maybe but I just can't understand the Williams at the moment. Think Trulli should be top 4.

If Sato keeps it together he'll be up there, and maybe Fisi in the Sauber thanks to the engine. McLaren - who knows..

the B

07-06-2004, 10:17

Williams do have a strong car for Canada and their car hasn't been totally uncompetitive in this season - they did get a good second place this season (although this was back at Malaysia) and their record at Canada is good.

Have a feeling Sato will break his car again, the Mercedes engines will probably let go too. Don't think Fisi will do that well - suspect the Toyotas will finally put together a performance worth their money over the other midfield teams.

the B

08-06-2004, 11:49

BAR's boss - David Richards - doesn't want two Brits driving for BAR, commerical reasons, so it seems unlikely he'll get a drive with Button.

Jacques Villneuve has said he's had no offers for a seat in any car next year.

g force

14-06-2004, 08:11

Top GP again - even with the DQ's - a good fight and some great drives.

Once again Ralf becomes the mid-season enigma - if he can drive that fast (with ot without brake ducts) in Canada why can't he do it the rest of the time :confused:

A big :rolleyes: to Sato for his 360 at the hairpin - the guy needs to calm it a bit - he's becoming the new Massa!!!

For me the two drivers of the weekend were Glock and Fisi. I really hope Fisi gets a decent drive next season - Williams would be superb. Qualified that car really well with so much fuel on board. Glock showed really good race craft in a car that, let's face it, is a bit shit! I think he will have impressed a fair few people.

Felt bad for Trulli - weird DQ and he would have been well up there.

g force

29-06-2004, 09:09

I will not let this thread die!!! :D

Ralf is definitely out of the French GP, and possibly Biritsh GP too - likely to be replaced by Williams tester Marc Gene. Oh dear.... :eek: :(

Looks like MS will have a free run unless JPM can get his act together.

And thankfully, they've decied to qually as it is, for now:

No qualifying changes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/3848053.stm)

the B

30-06-2004, 10:17

I was wondering how this thread was as I've been offline for a while...

BAR should be competitive in France - they have a car that would seem to run well there.

And no qualifying changes please - it suits Michellin shod cars above and beyond Bridgestones by miles.

Also, many cars this season were not designed with fully modifable race fuel - ie. they have much smaller tanks.

I think qualifying should be left for the rest of the season, it's past the half-way mark, the little teams would lose money, it'd be the third system this year...

MP19-B might be racing at France, there were rumours that got quashed about Ferrari cheating by spraying agents on their tyres to increase grip, F1 cars are definately going around the West End bits of London on July 6th :cool:

g force

30-06-2004, 10:54

Am excited by the F1 thing as I work on Regent St - the noise will be amazing.

Agree that BAR should be competive in France - I really want to see Sato and Button racing with no car problems to see what happens. I think Sato might edge it TBH, he's really developing into a good racer but needs to cut out the silly mistakes.

I'm unsure about the new McLaren - plenty of noises about how fast it is but as we all know testing counts for jack in F1. I shoudl hope it's a second a lap faster becuase it couldn't really be much slower unless the team name ended in "ardi".

Seeks like Ralf will be out for a long time now they've discovered he has hairline factures in his spine :eek: Might be back for Brazil, but I wonder if Williams will bother seeing as he's off at the end of the season.

And of course that means there's a seat going - Gene might race in France but I doubt they'd give him or Antonio Crashonia the drive for 3-4 GPs. I hear there's a certain french canadian lookign for a drive :D

the B

30-06-2004, 13:22

I have a feeling the cars won't be going round too quickly...Regent Street would be VERY bumpy compared to what F1 cars usually run on.

Sato, in theory, is the driver with the most improving to make, he's been driving for a short time, realtively, only about 6 or 7 years I think. I'm not sure he's that good a driver, nothing about him stands out apart from him being 'expensive' as Eddie Jordan put it...

The new McLaren is meant to be about half of a second quicker - it is that much faster around Silverstone compared to the 'original' contender for this year.

Villeneuve has been in touch with Williams but he's not due for a test drive until August, can see that being bumped up - could also maybe see Williams asking to get Webber in the car now and let Jaguar try and find something to do with an empty seat.

g force

30-06-2004, 14:35

True, but the BAR ran at goodwood hill and was okay. Still gonna be might noisy :D The thing about Sato is he's willing to have a go unlike a lot of people and that makes it interesting.

Webber could happen - Renault are keeping their drivers so it's his only option. I wonder who will partner him - I can't see Williams taking JV on again. Hopefully it will be someone young - Davidson or Wirdheim

As for Jag....losing Webber, head of F1 publicly slating Klein - well done that'll do his confidence the world of good :rolleyes: ...it's getting worse by the minute. I expect to see them further down the grid next season and who knows if new teams come in 2006 they may not bother at all! not that I have any sympathy - Wilson did a great job and instead they chose a guy with prodigous, but unproven, talent and a nice fat cheque from Red Bull.

the B

30-06-2004, 15:30

People say Montoya is willing to 'have a go' and I think it makes him a cock sometimes, I think the same of Sato if he does stuff like he did at the Nurburgring.

I think Jaguar are looking particularly troubled, it doesn't seem like they have any way of getting out of the back of the grid.

Ralf is looking out for 12 weeks or so and Gene is taking his seat for the meantime. He has two fractures in his spine.

wordie

30-06-2004, 16:24

I expect to see them further down the grid next season and who knows if new teams come in 2006 they may not bother at all! not that I have any sympathy - Wilson did a great job and instead they chose a guy with prodigous, but unproven, talent and a nice fat cheque from Red Bull.
They can't get much further down the grid than they are... Can they?

Ford are a bunch of wankers anyway and they'll pull out if not next year, the year after. Money on it!

Wilson, Webber and anyone half decent are well out of it.

As for the image loss for Jaguar cars. It will all be glossed over with PR, but the buyers will know and remember, them as the bunch that couldn't cut it at the sharp end. But then a Jag today is simply a Mondeo in fancy dress, no?

Next year, Webber will be with Davidson in the "much faster" Williams.

The new McLaren will fail. Too late in the season to be building a fast car. It's only a stopgap til next year, and I think you'll see Daimler-Chrysler buying the whole team and running it into the ground...

Put your money on BAR winning at least one race this year and competing for the Championship next year... but maybe NOT with Button!

But then that's only my opinion and like they say, "What the fuck do I know...."

the B

30-06-2004, 20:34

Wilson is doing Champ cars - he'd love an F1 drive - even in a team that isn't performing too well because it might lead to better drives...

Davidson getting the Williams drive? Don't see it happening...Williams will want at least one experienced driver and neither are that experienced.

I don't think the new McLaren will fail, on at least a few tracks - it'll put them into a reasonably competitive position. Half a second is nothing to sneeze at per lap in F1 and it's got more reliable - which has generally been their biggest problem.

I don't think you can put money on BAR will win a race - but which race do you actually think they are going to be competing for a win at - or even less likely I suppose making them the Ferraris chase them at...Hungary will the next race I think the Ferrari will lose it's gap over the rest of the field but that will be to Renault rather than BAR I think.

mears

30-06-2004, 21:50

Is Williams driver lineup set for next year? I was under the impression Scott Dixon (Currently in the IRL) will get a seat at Williams. He has had a couple of tests that I thought went well. Dixon drives for Chip Ganassi, who fielded Montoya and Zanardi in CART.

wordie

30-06-2004, 22:29

Dixon drives for Chip Ganassi, who fielded Montoya and Zanardi in CART.

Yeah right, and neither Montoya nor Zanardi have exactly set the F1 world alight! (I'm not saying they're not good drivers though - just haven't come up with the goods their Stateside performances promised. Sorry!)

Dixon won't get Frank's nod 'cos of his experience with Zanardi. Williams need a strong reason to have a driver in their cars and Webber has proved he's quick, and hungry, and he's Aussie... (it's a history thing.) They'll choose Davidson cos he's a Brit, he's damn fast and he's cheap.

I think you can forget JV simply because he's been out a year, it's been a while since he was competitive (in a competitive car) and they didn't really see eye to eye when JV won the championship. Then he jumped ship for big heaps of wonga! Not the sort of thing that Frank respects.

Fisi might get a run, but I reckon Webber and Davidson are a done deal.

the B, I see what you're saying about BAR, but I reckon they're on a roll, and Dave R will force them to stay on it. Hungary is the one they'll win. Or Japan. Next year, watch out for mega action between Ferrari and BAR.

Why? Because Honda like the taste of champagne even more than Ferrari do!

I reckon Barrichello is about to rebel and he'll upset the nice cosy apple cart. He's made his money so he'll be wanting to prove he's more than a good journeyman anytime soon. Of course, you can do a lot with a car from a laptop in the pits, so expect to see a lot of Barrichello/Ferrari unreliability if he threatens the status quo. But he will de-stabilise the shiny happy people in red causing them to take their eye off the ball.

Oh, and another tip for 2005. Jaguar becomes Red BUll Ford. And will continue to occupy the back of the grid along with Minardi.

Why? Because Ford want a way out asap, and dealing with the Ford board is easier (and cheaper) than dealing with Stoddard or Jordan.

As always, this is all merely my, admittedly cynical view of the future. Let's see if it's all a load of bollocks, or maybe, just maybe, there's some reality in there. I dunno.

the B

30-06-2004, 22:47

Rubens will race til his contract goes I think, end of 2006.

JV is due to test the Williams in August, so he's still in with a shot at a seat - the Williams driver line up has not been confirmed. They wil get Webber I think - unless Jaguar pull off some very sudden and unexpected performances, his contract says he must leave Jaguar. It's known Coulthard won't get the seat, I think Fisi wants the seat but Williams doesn't seem to want him for some reason...

I see what you mean about Frank and JV not getting on, but Willliams need a good driver at the moment and JV is still considered pretty quick - he's probably faster than Davidson.

Davidson is deceptively fast in practice times - I'm not sure he's that good but I'm open to being proved wrong on that one - the Friday practice times he does are in a 'tweaked' BAR that is often also testing experimental parts and run on low fuel (not like Davidson will race so why give him a car designed to last a race).

I can't see the BAR winning in Japan, possibly Hungary but it's a track that really does suit the Renault. The BAR's strength appears to stability in longer, sweeping corners and brake balance - might help a bit in Japan with the 130R but one corner doesn't make a track (although it is a very important corner!)

g force

01-07-2004, 08:19

We all know Ant gets a different Honda engine and that contributes to the stunning times compared to Button or Sato. BUT give him credit - at Monaco he drove the circuit for the first time ever and got the car to be second fastest. That is one talented driver - but whether he get's a seat or not is a different matter.

I reallty think Fisi is holding out for a Ferrari seat but by the time either RB or MS go he'll be too old.

I can see why JV would be exciting but he's had his time and I think someone else should get the drive. If he's immediately fast then that may help his cause but i'm not sure Frank, or Patrick Head like him and although Head is retirign he still has a lot of sway at Williams.

Personally i'd like to see Hiedfeld get the seat - he's talented, quick, and perhaps crucially for the politics involved he's German.

I'm not sure Ford will even bother if a new team comes in 2006. They may go back to pure engine supply, which might help Minardi and Jordan, but it's clear top management are losing patience with F1 - although they've got no one to blame but themselves - Stewart was an upcoming team and they single handedly destroyed it by employing Herbert and Irvine as drivers. The whoel Lauda/Rahal debacle then unsettled the team.

Red Bull might step in, in which case you can expect 2 young drivers from their academy to get the seats.

the B

01-07-2004, 21:45

There is a chance of there being 19 GP next season - beneficial to the sport or not?

g force

02-07-2004, 08:43

Not if 17 are won by one driver :p :D

I dunno - i'm all for introducing new tracks and new places but TBH if they're all designed by Tilke there's no point tuning in. It might mean they keep San Marino, which doesn't bother me but they really need to scrap the "European GP" it's utter toss.

Rumours of another US GP at Watkins Glen which I think would be great - and is likely given that the US is a big market for BMW, Toyota, Honda, Ford/Jag. India will probably have a GP within 5 years, and of course there's Russia too.

Some variety would be good - my suggestion (which will never happen) is make the Indy, or maybe even bring in Rockingham and have a pure oval race, and then a couple more street races, one at Surfers Paradise, and one in the US.

There are so many great circuits in the US that could be used, places like Elkhart Lake (Laguna Seca ain't gonna happen) that they should be racing on.

The only problem I forsee is that in expanding the calender it might mean brinign back places like A1 Ring until new circuits are built. Personally i'd liek to see Mexico return, if only for that final bend :eek: and bring back Paul Ricard, Dijon and Estoril for some proper old school tracks!

the B

02-07-2004, 09:43

I think the problem of having too many races in a season is that it restricts car development too much by limiting the amount of testing that can be done.

g force

02-07-2004, 10:03

But i think that's the whole idea isn't it - they want less testing because the more cars have unpredictable reliability the more they think people will want to watch.

Less testing might also mean cars reach their potential towards the end of the season making the championship closer and, in theory, giving more teams a chance at winning the early GPs. The FIA also seem to think that by crammign more GPs in and less development time it will solve their idea of slowing the cars down, which I think is misguided.

They'd still get the off season - a good 4 months to work on the new models, because they want GP's grouped together so that european-based GP's would happen every 2 weeks.

the B

02-07-2004, 10:09

The cars can be made reliable to suit the fact there is less testing - I think the important thing about testing is that it means the season can change.

2003 was an exciting season because the McLaren started out the fastest, then it went to Ferrari, then to Williams and back to Ferrari...

The drawback of testing is that it's expensive to do.

I don't think the FIA would view reducing testing as the most effective way to slowing cars down compared to changing the rules (probably on tyres).

g force

02-07-2004, 13:21

2nd Friday session over. Rain affected first session saw JPM crash heavily and some drivers didn't come out for the second session hence the slow times:

1 Cristiano Da Matta (BRA) Toyota 1:15.518
2 Jarno Trulli (ITA) Renault 1:16.206 +0:00.688
3 Jenson Button (GBR) BAR 1:16.397 +0:00.879
4 Michael Schumacher (GER) Ferrari 1:16.397 +0:00.879
5 Fernando Alonso (ESP) Renault 1:16.454 +0:00.936
6 David Coulthard (GBR) McLaren 1:16.464 +0:00.946
7 Mark Webber (AUS) Jaguar 1:16.745 +0:01.227
8 Kimi Räikkönen (FIN) McLaren 1:16.794 +0:01.276
9 Rubens Barrichello (BRA) Ferrari 1:17.094 +0:01.576
10 Olivier Panis (FRA) Toyota 1:17.303 +0:01.785
11 Giancarlo Fisichella (ITA) Sauber 1:17.324 +0:01.806
12 Juan Pablo Montoya (COL) Williams 1:17.556 +0:02.038
13 Marc Gené (ESP) Williams 1:17.688 +0:02.170
14 Ricardo Zonta (BRA) Toyota 1:17.735 +0:02.217
15 Christian Klien (AUT) Jaguar 1:17.936 +0:02.418
16 Takuma Sato (JPN) BAR 1:17.967 +0:02.449
17 Anthony Davidson (GBR) BAR 1:17.979 +0:02.461
18 Felipe Massa (BRA) Sauber 1:18.614 +0:03.096
19 Bjorn Wirdheim (SWE) Jaguar 1:19.179 +0:03.661
20 Nick Heidfeld (GER) Jordan 1:19.270 +0:03.752
21 Gianmaria Bruni (ITA) Minardi 1:19.349 +0:03.831
22 Timo Glock (GER) Jordan 1:19.490 +0:03.972
23 Zsolt Baumgartner (HUN) Minardi 1:19.636 +0:04.118
24 Bas Leinders (BEL) Minardi 1:19.914 +0:04.396
25 Giorgio Pantano (ITA) Jordan 1:20.226 +0:04.708

MS has said speeds need to be cut to avoid a fatal crash - on BBC site - don't have a link

the B

04-07-2004, 15:33

I didn't post practice times since they were pretty much useless...fantastic grand prix today, I found it thrilling anyway :) Trulli was a complete muppet to lose his podium place like that - must be kicking himself like Raikonnen did in 2002...

The new McLaren is significantly more race-y than the previous model I think...they have the potential to compete with Williams overall now (rather than face being beaten by Sauber)

I think Jaguar had a decent race and were unlucky they didn't get a point (or better) since 18 of the cars finished - quite different from the last GP where there were 8 'finishers' and 9 classified.

The Tuesday F1 cars going through the West End should be very :cool: I'm looking at the route of it all and think it should be quite good. Think it would be better if they did Oxford Street and then got onto Park Lane when heading back to Piccadilly/Pall Mall but nevermind, I'm chuffed enough with the situation as it is :)

I've sorted out the digital video camera and will attempt to practice using it to record moving things - been reading up and almost thought about posting a thread in photography to break me into that forum (since I have no mono or tripod I have a feeling it will look rubbish though....)

wordie

04-07-2004, 17:53

I didn't post practice times since they were pretty much useless...fantastic grand prix today, I found it thrilling anyway :) Trulli was a complete muppet to lose his podium place like that - must be kicking himself like Raikonnen did in 2002...

Were we watching the same GP? I thought it was less exciting than watching paint dry. Sorry, but apart from Barrichello getting the jump on Trulli at the penultimate corner, the other 119 mins were a complete waste of time.

the B

04-07-2004, 17:59

It wasn't a 'spectacle' type of race...there was not much 'on the track' overtaking but I thought the way the strategies were playing out was :cool:

Ich bin ein Mod

04-07-2004, 23:50

Well there was really quite a bit of on track excitement, just the director decided it would be better showing us alonso for the entire race

g force

05-07-2004, 08:36

That could have been a great GP if the director had bothered...okay so Alonso leading for a change made a difference but the battles further down were great.

And a big :rolleyes: at JB - try attacking you muppet - lost a sure 3rd place with some really poor driving. Same goes fro Trulli...still had a great GP but really should have been on the podium.

Pleased McLaren were more competitive - bodes well for later in the year - although there's still a way to go before it's a contender. Williams had a shocker - can't really blame Gene - he's a tester and hasn't raced for a while, but JPM was poor - apparently had a sore back from Friday's accident.

the B

05-07-2004, 10:02

The Williams never seemed to get set-up correctly...as for dodgy directing, the British GP will surely be the worst offender - going to see muppet Button for ages...

g force

05-07-2004, 10:11

Or DC pootling round in 6th place for 50 laps...oh the joy :rolleyes:

I can only pray that we have a decent grid like in France to keep up some sort of pretence of interest. At least with JB doing well you'd hope a decent crowd will turn up.

I really don't know what is going on at Williams. I think, in theory, the nose design works and at least it means there's something a bit different on the grid but i'd be surprised if it stays for next season. There's something very wrong with the chassis t..the engine may not be the quickest anymore but the handling is way behind Ferrari, BAR and Renault.

You could tell the car wasn't happy on the curbs, while the BAR and Ferrari looked fine.

I was surprised by Gene - I thought he'd be quicker seeing as he's driven that car more than anyone else. I think we can count him out of the Williams seat for 05 unless he pulls soemthing spectacular (top 5 at least) in GB.

the B

05-07-2004, 10:28

The 2003 Williams was also a rubbish car for a while - then at around this point in the season they suddenly became very dominant. I think it's too late for anyone to make a late charge for the title though.

The nose isn't that critical an element of the car compared to the rear wing assembly and it seems like so much of their improvement was pinned on that and it just feels like Williams haven't changed the car that much from last year (judging by the lap times they are putting out when considering improvements in tyres).

What would make Silverstone interesting is rain

g force

05-07-2004, 11:13

Rain would be good - approximately half way though the 2nd qualifying session would make it very interesting!

Bruni for pole :D

I think if everyone was being honest they're looking to 05 already and given the championship to Ferrari. Many of the improvements we will see later this year will be parts they're testing for 05. I imagine Zonta and Davidson will both have some interesting engine/gearbox/aero developments pretty soon to run on Friday.

McLaren has said as much already after the 19-4 was so poor. Williams are still trying to find a 2nd driver - if we assume that Webber has signed and Renault need to get some more power to really compete.

Toyota will have a brand new Gascoigne-developed car (although Ralf driving it may not help), Sauber may finally get that wind tunnel working and I pray Jordan can find some money/steal a decent engine for Nick to show his talent.

Jaguar look like a team resigned to mediocrity forever more. And Minardi are Minardi.

the B

05-07-2004, 11:23

I can't see Toyota 'getting good' too soon. They are using the 'throw money' route to success, which will eventually work - BAR is evidence of it being possible to get success with enough money (although they haven't won a race yet).

I don't think the Renault is as underpowered as people think, they tend to go for faster lap times rather than setting the car up for overtaking.

I don't think Nick will stay with Jordan, there are marginally better cars with seats available - even Jaguar...

g force

05-07-2004, 13:10

Not much of a choice though is it for a guy who is clearly talented?

I think Toyota will be far quicker to improve than BAR - Gascoigne knows how to build a car and if they get the right drivers to develop it will be in with a hsout of podiums within 2 years. Problem at the moment is I can't see how a Ralf/Pains partnership is going to help them on race days.

BAR's problem stemmed from losing some of technical guys after a couple of seasons which left Pollock to lead the team and by all accounts he didn't bother and left it to Jacques, which in turn angered BAR staff. When Honda started having more overall input they were *allegedly* shocked by how unprofessional BAR were in testing and development. It's noticable how much Honda like JB because he's bothered to visit the engine team in Japan a few times. The result: car is more comeptive and they've started acting like a team rather than the JV and Pollock show.

Toyota are different - they won't rest until that car is competitive. Sadly, I think choosing Ralf is the biggest mistake they could make.

the B

05-07-2004, 13:17

I think Nick was unlucky - he outperformed Raikkonen in the season he was at Sauber but it was Kimi who got the McLaren drive and almost won the world title...

Is Panis confirmed for next season as a Toyota driver? I can see him leaving very soon, his best career days are over (well, a win in a Ligier at Monaco :)) and he isn't going to get a good drive...I reckon Nick might want a seat at Toyota but I don't seem them taking two German drivers for sponsorship reasons.

I don't think Ralf is a bad driver, just not that good - he's not his brother by some way.

In two years, F1 will be very different and I think this might help Toyota get competitive faster than BAR - but not that much faster...unless they take another massive step in spending, top drivers will continue looking for a seat with the established top teams.

wordie

05-07-2004, 14:54

Sadly, I think choosing Ralf is the biggest mistake they could make.
Sadly, I think you're right!

I don't think Ralf is a bad driver, just not that good - he's not his brother by some way.

Well I think that's understating the situation quite considerably. I think, if he was called Ralf Somethingelse, he'd have to pay for a drive in a Minardi.... and even then Stoddard would need big heaps of it!

g force

05-07-2004, 15:30

B - Even though Toyota are japanese, as you know they're based in Cologne, so Hiedfeld might be in with a shout - but, i'd heard they were keeping Panis.

An error, I think, but he is apparently one of the best testers around and the car needs development.

Wordie - nah Ralf isn't that bad, even though i'm sure his name didn't exactly hurt in any way. The problem with Ralf is he's too hot and cold - on his day with the car under him not many can keep up with him, not even his brother had an answer in a couple of GPs last season. He had some great races in the Jordan before Frank Williams signed him - plus the BMW Williams was a bit of a dog to start with

But, and it's a very big 'but', when he's struggling he looks like he can't be bothered. His brother by contrast fights to the very end, even if the car isn't perfect.

Now, if we consider where Toyota are on the gird, and what the car is like, it will take at least 2 seasons before they challenge for podiums. Can't see Ralf racing for 10th place for that long.

Compare that to talented people who can't get a "decent" drive: Hiedfeld, Villenueve, Webber, Davidson, plus some of the big names in the US who have expressed an interest in F1 - Franchitti, Dixon, Junquiera, Yoong (spot the odd one out :D ) and some of the up and coming guys being courted like Wirdhiem, Luzzi, Toccacelo, Giammaria and Enge and you get the distinct impression he's living on borrowed time.

May as well bugger off and join Frentzen and Alesi in DTM!

Ich bin ein Mod

06-07-2004, 02:03

Ah but doesn't Villeneuve have the same kind of attitude? When things go wrong he doesn't really seem to dig deeper and is merely content to trail around to the end. A bit like Montoya has this season.

Unfortunately the deciding factor for too many teams in F1 is not talent but sponsor appeal.

the B

06-07-2004, 02:29

Yeah, a result of the cost of F1 getting so high...

I'm going to be at F1 job tomorrow in London, I'll post some hopefully not too rubbish photos or stills from digital video footage...

g force

06-07-2004, 08:24

Bah can't bloody make the F1 demo thanks to work!!! And I work on bloody Regent St - so I may just hang out of the window.

Saw the Farrari guys this morning in the 'pit' area down by the IoD looking relaxed and having a laugh with.....Anthony Davidson :eek: Ant for Ferrari! :D The BAR guys were just wondering the streets.

There's a great little spectactor stand there too but I guess it will be rammed

Couple of Jordans there as well - got to say it looks really nice up close, shame it's so slow

the B

06-07-2004, 20:35

That was so :cool:

I have some nice footage, I was opposite the Tower records right up at the front near the 'Olympus Bend' and will post some pics if I can be bothered to sort it all out...

The sound was great :) The baby near me was so scared it wet itself right through the nappy and into a puddle on the floor...

the B

07-07-2004, 10:28

Ralf Schumacher has been confirmed for Toyota for 3 whole years...

Aggregate qualifying and any major change to the system will probably not be in place until next season if at all.

Bernie wants it to be possible for points to be scored based on qualifying performance (a bad idea, very bad if the system stays with qualifying on race level fuel)

wordie

07-07-2004, 10:34

ooops, I just posted the Schumacer thing in a seperate thread.

Can someone merge them?

g force

07-07-2004, 11:12

Bah! and i've just commented on it too :o

Big mistake from toyota, but frankly if they've got money to waste they deserve each other. An average team with an average driver.

wordie

08-07-2004, 16:29

Blimey! It's Silverstone this weekend and this thread's about to drop off the edge of the page... :eek:

Anyway, what does the team think about the chance of an upset this weekend re: the unseasonal weather?

If it's a wet, or better still, wet & dry GP, which team (apart from Ferrari) will handle it best?

Answers in a post please! :D

wordie

08-07-2004, 16:36

Oh, and another thing, Ralf is squealing about not taking the Toyota seat simply for the dosh!

So if it's not the money but the glory, it must be one of these reasons:

1.) He's doing it because they're the front running team that's won loads of Chapmpionships before, and will again?

2.) Or because of the massive leaps in competitiveness the team have shown in the last few seasons?

3.) Or maybe it's because he thinks he's a better test driver than Panis, and can do a much better job of getting a dog to perform?

Cynical? Me? Nah....

Personally, I don't think he could beat Rubens if he was given his brothers Ferrari.... but hey, what do I know?

:mad:

g force

09-07-2004, 08:17

I guess he's realised that there's no leadign drive to be had so he's gone to the team with the most potential to improve.

Fairly clever - if they improve he can take the credit, if they don't he bags the money, blames the team and walks away from F1 considerably richer. Win-Win either way for him.

I still think he's one of the most average drivers out there. I'm not convinved that he'll do anything next season but 06 could be interesting.

Anyway Silverstone: I hope it's a wet/dry qualy session just to make it interesting. Either way I can't see MS being beaten - think McLaren may have their best GP of the season, and the usual suspects - JPM, Button, Alonso, Trulli, Sato will be in with a shout.

the B

09-07-2004, 17:22

In other news, looks like Toyota may get some bridgestone tyres next season and Sauber get some Michellin ones.

Back to Silverstone, the McLarens look fast - so does Ferrari...

If it rains, I reckon Sauber will do the job very well, the Bridgestones are so dominant in the rain - around 2 to 3 seconds a lap...if it's a mixture, it'll be a weird race because the wetter it is...the more the Bridgestones benefit. In the past, Michellin runners have benefitted from 'drying' conditions but if it dries up, the Bridgestones are better on unrubbered track...

the B

11-07-2004, 00:25

The new McLaren is a fast car - it's got it's first pole of the season - although Coulthard was one second slower than Kimi...

Barichello, Button, Michael Schumacher and then the two Renaults...

I can see this being a very difficult race for Michael - can't see him keeping both Renaults behind him after the start and possibly losing out to both of them...

In other news...development has stopped on the F2004 - apart from tyre developments which are 'general' and engine developments...Ferrari feel they have the championships in the bag then...

the B

11-07-2004, 13:54

So, is David Coulthard as rubbish as I've suspected for so long?

Is Kimi that good or, more likely, some combination?

Still wish it rained...

wordie

11-07-2004, 16:14

So, is David Coulthard as rubbish as I've suspected for so long?

Is Kimi that good or, more likely, some combination?
Who knows? But wasn't it a good race? At last! I can't remember the last time I was on the edge of my seat during a GP.

Felt a bit sorry for Jenson. I still can't understand how/why Rubens got ahead of him... even though I suspect he couldn't have held him off on the track.

Pantano should be in the same series Ralf S deserves to be in.

What happened to Nick H?

Would be interesting to know what would've happened if Kimi had been on the same Bridgestones that Mickey was using.

And god, isn't Kimi boooorrrriiiinnnngggg when he's out of the car!

the B

11-07-2004, 16:24

Rubens got ahead of Jenson the same way that Jenson got ahead of Rubens (for one stint) - a combination of traffic and slightly different fuel loads.

Pantano is paying for his seat I'm sure...Timo Glock may actually be faster (he managed to get some points on his first and only race, albeity because four cars ahead of him got disqualified) but just can't get the sponsorship.

Jordan generally had a shit race in an uncompetitive car...they seemed to feature most when being overtaken by the faster cars who started behind them because of various penalities...

Kimi has typical Finnish racing driver charisma...Mika never had much of a sense of humour either - he's a driver but not a racer if you get me...

As for your question about Kimi on Bridgestones - the cars are designed to operate with the tyres they are expected to race on. The Bridgestones are designed to run almost exclusively on the Ferraris - Sauber, Minardi and Jordan have a hard time getting the most out of the tyres and it shows...there's no reason to believe the McLaren would fit the Bridgestone 'correctly'

g force

12-07-2004, 08:52

Well that wasn't too bad...but the traffci really screwed a couple of key players.

The McLaren was fast - it's just DC who's shite now. Seems like JPM is joining them at the perfect time! The BAR really lacked pace in the middle of the GP - Sato was nowhere and Button dropped off - that car is good - mayeb better than the Williams now - but it's race pace is still way off.

Glad Trulli is okay - that was a nasty looking accident :( Rumours that he's nto signed for 05 and will go to Sauber with Fisi goin the other way. Thought Fisi was easily the driver of the day - that car is no more than very average he had the perfect tactics and the pace.

Gene is clearly rubbish so i expect to see Pizzonia in the next GP. Nick Hiedfeld is so much better thasn results suggest but I fear he may becoem the forgotten man of F1. I can only hope he gets a seat ahead of DC, but I don't think it's goign to happen.

Of course, with the new Dubai team (blatantly buying Jordan why did EJ not just say it?) he may get a decent car under him. Wonder if they'll try and buy customer Ferrari/Merc engines? I'm sure if they wave ebnough $ one of them will take it up.

Pantano isn't bad either, although I think Glock is better, but the Jordan is just a terrible, terrible car. It doesn't handle and it's got bugger all power and for a rookie that's a tough ask to do any better than he is.

the B

12-07-2004, 10:11

Looks like Trulli wants more money than Sauber can give - he might be going to Toyota :eek: with Fisi to Renault - gives Nick Heidfeld a chance to get into a reasonable car.

Gene is rubbish - not sure if Pizzonia will be any better, he was utterly shocking when he was at Jaguar.

g force

12-07-2004, 10:53

Pizzonia was on a par with Klien IMO - he's quick but very error prone. However, Williams have taken him on and must be impressed with him if they're even considering giving him a drive.

Gene not only seems slow but has no aggression. Trulli and Ralf at Toyota isn't bad but mid-field racing is where they'll be.

I think an Alonso/Fisi pairing would work really well - both very quick and know how to race. And if that meant Nick was in with a shout of returning to Sauber or, fingers crossed, partnering Webber at Williams then great!

Guess that would leave DC with Sauber or Jag...he may as well retire because I think he'd be an embrassment in the Jag. Unless Eddie can persuade him to join Jordan :eek: Might not be that far fetched if he gets this cash injection from Dubai.

Ralf/DC partnership wouldn't work for Toyota, particualrly not with the amount of $$ they're paying Ralf. The biggest losers will prolly be Davidson, Da Matta and Panis because the rubbish seats will be left!

To my mind the ideal teams would be:

Ferrari: MS and Rubens
McLaren: JPM and Kimi
Williams: Webber and Hiedfeld
Renault: Alonso and Fisi
BAR: Button and Sato
Toyota: Ralf and Trulli
Jaguar: DC and Davidson
Sauber: Massa and Panis/Klien?
Jordan:Glock and Pantano
Minardi: Whoever has some money. Please not Verstappen!

Ich bin ein Mod

12-07-2004, 15:45

Ideal for Minardi would be for some billionaire to buy it and use it to develop young drivers so we don't get fuckspuds like Alex Yoong on a racetrack

GarfieldLeChat

12-07-2004, 17:33

Ideal for Minardi would be for some billionaire to buy it and use it to develop young drivers so we don't get fuckspuds like Alex Yoong on a racetrack

maybe I'd like to just see them get the cash with out being bought out i kinda have a soft spot for Minardi and Jordan more than the other little teams

bertifrew

12-07-2004, 17:46

Ich bin ein Mod

12-07-2004, 17:54

maybe I'd like to just see them get the cash with out being bought out i kinda have a soft spot for Minardi and Jordan more than the other little teams
True, I'd like to see more smaller teams in F1 but it aint gonna happen anymore :(

GarfieldLeChat

13-07-2004, 05:32

Does anyone here know anything about a guy called pearse flynne? I've read that he was a sponsor for the Jordan F1 team last season. He saved my local football club from extinction recently, and i would like to know if he's going to keep money coming into the club, or fuck off and leave us in the lurch when he gets bored.
does it matter much it gives them a few more games you can't berate him if he's not asked for any major changes but give you cash to survie for a bit longer... surely ti's up to the team to find and keep a sponsor by performing?

the B

13-07-2004, 23:25

Nick Heidfeld might get "rescued" from Jordan - he could fill in Ralf Schumacher's seat...

There's been some speculation Hakkinen might still come back, Coulthard is still trying to find a seat for next year...

During testing:

K. Raikkonen McLaren 1'17"649
95 laps of running

That's over half a second quicker than his poll time :eek:

Some of this will be a result of better set up, but it seems like the new McLaren is like greased lightning...possibly silly, but is there any possiblity of them doing a really really late charge for a title?

g force

14-07-2004, 08:36

No the title is in the bag for MS and Ferrari. I view testing times with suspicion - if the car is quick in the next qually session then I'll take note but until then.

I was amazed at Silverstone that the Top 11 qualifiers all went quicker than the 03 fastest lap! McLaren have too much ground to make up on BAR and possibly Renualt too - but like BAR are hampered by only having one driver capable of scoring big points.

If I was a team owner I wouldn't touch DC with a long stick - he's been shit all year, even compared to Kimi. He can't qualify, he's an average tester and he can't really overtake. He may as well go back to Monaco and run his bar.

Ich bin ein Mod

14-07-2004, 10:18

DC has always been shit imo. He makes too many silly mistakes and to have driven for both Mclaren and Williams without ever seriously looking like a contender is apalling.

g force

14-07-2004, 10:49

Yep I think he's had his shot - time to give people like Webebr and Hiedfeld a go. TBH I can't see Frank taking him back to Williams - they need a hard charger to get the car competitive.

Mod, you must be chuffed by the way this season is going :D I think MS is driving better than ever before and, perhaps worringly hasn't really been pushed expect for early in the UK and Monaco (which I still think he wouldn't have won - that race was Trulli's) so I don't think we've seen the full pace of the Ferrari.

the B

14-07-2004, 10:54

I didn't think Michael was going to do many of the fast laps he's done this year...race after race, when he's needed to a series of very very quick times, he's done them.

I didn't think the four stop strategy in France would have worked but it did...for the same reason, I reckon Michael could have nicked it in Monaco.

As for Ferrari haven't been pushed - Ross Brawn was interviewed saying some races have been won and lost by a few seconds difference at critical times during some of the GPs...so it's closer than it looks...apparently...

And the F2004 isn't going to be much quicker in the future, unlike some of the other cars...MS has been saying he doesn't fancy his chances in Germany (and this may be the case in Hungary too).

Ich bin ein Mod

14-07-2004, 11:00

g force, I'm very chuffed at the way this season has been going. Not only are Ferrari running away with it, evil McLaren are nowhere :D

the B, Ross Brawn always says that! Yes a couple of races will have been won by Schummi putting in a couple of his legendary banzai laps, most noticably France but he's been relentless all season.

God I can still remember when Ferrari used to scrabble about with that dog of a V12 and would be lucky to finish a race. Whatever happened to Ivan Capello?

the B

14-07-2004, 11:02

Whatever happened to Ivan Capello?

Who? :confused:

Ich bin ein Mod

14-07-2004, 11:03

Who? :confused:
Exactly ;)

g force

14-07-2004, 11:12

I'll take your Ivan Capello and raise you a Nicola Larini :D

According to Autosport (no link cos it's subs only) Hiedfeld is testing for Williams with a view to taking the seat for the German GP :eek: BMW want a german driver and Nick wants a good car. Guess if he gets it and does well he's a prime candidate for 05!

Downside? Verstappen will take his place in the Jordan - mobile chicane here we come! Why not give it to Timo Glock?

Ich bin ein Mod

14-07-2004, 11:29

Ah but johnny come lately might remember him from his Sauber days ;) (sorry the B!)

Tim O'Glock should get the nod ahead of the world's fastest (slowest?) atm machine, pity it never works out that way

g force

14-07-2004, 11:35

Ivan also drove for the very bright, and quite slow Leyton House team. Decent sports car driver though - didn't he win a class in Le Mans last year?

Ich bin ein Mod

14-07-2004, 11:41

I think he did actually, and I was amazed, had to check it was the same guy :D

mears

15-07-2004, 17:24

Have you guys seen this? I think the flying Fin is the only driver of his generation that could compete with Schumacher. It would be great for F1 to get him back.

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/12012/

bertifrew

15-07-2004, 18:04

does it matter much it gives them a few more games you can't berate him if he's not asked for any major changes but give you cash to survie for a bit longer... surely ti's up to the team to find and keep a sponsor by performing?

no major changes?....he only as good as sacked our league cup winning manager and replaced him with a unexperienced nobody. But anyway i wont go into that on this thread, i just wanted to know if he has a habbit of gettin bored and running away, or if he stays for the long term.

Ich bin ein Mod

15-07-2004, 22:39

Got lucky with his car I think, remember his firt ever win was Jerez the year before he won his first championship.

Good driver, not as good as he was made out to be though.

And definately not on a par with Schummi. The Mclaren was way better than the Ferrari and Schummi was still able to push him

g force

16-07-2004, 08:22

The Hakk is back? Can't see it myself he's been out of the game too long the cars are 4 seconds a lap quicker and there's enough talent around to avoid getting him.

I also think it would seem a bit of a panic move by Williams - talk on Webber has gone cold and being Flavio's 2nd favourite coudl end up at renault with Alonso. Ditto the situation with Villeneuve.

I can't see how a Trulli/Hiedfeld team would be considered bad - no natural team leader, but after all the in fighting and politics of the past maybe they'd be better of just having two fast guys and letting them race. And by fast, i think we can discount DC from the equation!

the B

16-07-2004, 10:21

Pizzonia has been confirmed as the Williams driver for the next GP, in the final day of testing for six weeks (testing ban starts now) - he was fastest. All teams but Minardi were present and testing I think...

Until Mika or Jacques get into a current F1 car to test them, there is no chance of them coming back. Jacques has the possiblity of getting into one next month but that doesn't mean he'll get a seat next year (would be for Williams).

Ich bin ein Mod

16-07-2004, 10:27

All things considered, I'd rather see Villeneuve back than Hakkinen. At least Villeneuve adds a bit of spark and is more of a racer than Hakkinen

g force

16-07-2004, 10:34

Pizz is clearly better than many people gave him credit - he was young when he raced for Jag (can anyone say Klien hasw done any better?). Maybe Williams have got a star in waiting.

Commentators have always said he's quick, so maybe a year of testing has made him hone his racing. There's no reason to think he isn't near the top of the list for the 05 drive.

I honestly think Hakk has been away too long to get on the pace. Williams needs to get its car on the pace over the winter and then have 2 drviers willing to take it to McLaren, Ferrari, BAR and Renault otherwise they may fall behind. JV may have made too many enemies to find a way back.

I'm still not sure about Webber...he seems like he can do it and has shown promise, but i've not seen much to suggest he's going to do as well as JPM.

g force

16-07-2004, 12:05

A horrid thought has just occured to me...look at who's racign this year and where they could potentially qualify.....

....that's right heading into turn one we will could see a scrap between Sato, Pizzonia and Massa :eek: :eek:

I'm expecting plenty of stops for new front wings!

the B

16-07-2004, 12:09

More seriously...the FIA has announced some of the restrictions on cars in the future:

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040716/13/51lf.html

g force

16-07-2004, 13:15

The engine idea is a good one IMO - should put things on a bit moer of a even keel. The tyres are also good.

I'm lost on the aero stuff - the front wing is higher, okay got that, rear wing check but what exactly can teams do, or not do with the bodywork immediately in front of the rear wheels? I assume it means and ent to all the various end plates etc to more of body work tapering past exhausts to the rear wing.

the B

16-07-2004, 13:59

Teams try to control airflow from the moment it reaches the car at the front wing to create downforce. If you limit the space they have to do this, they create less of it.

I think the changes will suit the Renault team since electronics hasn't been touched...

g force

16-07-2004, 14:29

Should, in theory, suit Ford too since they have more experience of producing V8s for IRL and CART. I'd like Ford to produce a decent engine becauuse Jag should be further up the grid and then Jordan and Minardi might have a bit more pace!

the B

16-07-2004, 14:38

Moving engines to V8 will mean the potential advantage you can get will be lowered (ultimately) so the actual advantage Ford engines will have will be closed quickly or not prove so big.

This might make Renault's engine weakness a thing of the past too.

the B

19-07-2004, 15:21

Toyota have their own B spec car coming.

Ferrari can win the constructors title in Germany - they need to score 13 more points than Renault.

g force

19-07-2004, 15:56

13 more - nah won't happen, but it's putting off the inevitable!

According to this week's Austosport, Renault aren't likely to keep Trulli - they want Fisichella back. The only problem is his contract apparently stipulates he can only leave Sauber for Ferrari, Williams or McLaren next year. To get round this Flavio Briatore wants Williams to release Fisichella from his contract and immediately let him sign for Renault. In exchange, Williams as guaranteed of getting Webber (who I think we all assume is their #1 choice). However, If Williams take Fisichella, Briatore won't discuss any move whatsoever for Webber!

It sounds a bit unlikely but as a Fisichella fan I'd love to see him back at Renault - I can see that car progressing more next year than the Williams. Although frankly, either will be better than Sauber.

It also depresses me that an utter arse like Flavio can manage the drivers and be in charge of a team.

the B

23-07-2004, 10:56

Drivers next year: Ferrari will keep the same, McLaren will be Kimi and Montoya, BAR keep Button and Sato

Fisi is due for Renault with Alonso
Webber at Williams with Heidfeld
Coulthard at Jaguar
Trulli and Ralf at Toyota
Davidson getting a driver with Sauber

For this weekend: Michael Schumacher has the flu but is still racing...

the B

24-07-2004, 10:51

Button has a 10 place penalty for an engine change.

Looks like the Bridgestone runners are going for optimum race strategies that will reflect the inability to really compete with the Michellin runners for qualifying.

the B

24-07-2004, 12:25

Fantastic lap from Michael there....hopefully gets pole...

Ich bin ein Mod

25-07-2004, 12:32

Ooh big off for Raikkonen, he's alright though thankfully. Rear wing failure.

the B

25-07-2004, 13:47

Think viewers were robbed of a good race for the top spot but good stuff the rest of the way through.

First time I've seen Button do a (mostly) good drive.

Epico

25-07-2004, 13:56

Welldone to the German tv director for keeping with the action, and not with Schumacher going round and round.

mr_eko

25-07-2004, 15:41

Think viewers were robbed of a good race for the top spot but good stuff the rest of the way through.

First time I've seen Button do a (mostly) good drive.

could you define mostly? what about the second places at Monte Carlo and Imola? he's also had 4 thirds. He's having a pretty good season.

the B

25-07-2004, 16:38

But his drives are often unremarkable or depend on other people messing up rather than him actually doing some good work in the car.

And today, Button stuffed his start up and made getting second place exciting to watch but difficult for himself in many ways.

A good drive is something like a driver hanging on in wet conditions on dry tyres to be as fast or faster (like Rubens at the old Hockenheim in 2000) or a driver doing technically stunning laps over and over to develop enough of a lead or jump ahead (like Schumacher did at Silverstone or Mangy Cours or all sorts of places actually).

Today, Button got second because Alonso's car had a problem, Raikkonen fell off the track, Barrichello lost his front wing early on etc.

In some places he drove well, but otherwise in an unremarkable way.

I reckon while Kimi was driving, he was doing an excellent job keeping up with Michael.

Ich bin ein Mod

25-07-2004, 21:44

Yeah, but didn't Alonso's lack of speed occur after Button had passed him? Plus he was distracted by having to hold his helmet down!

Kimi was having a good race, the new Mclaren hooks up really well. Too little too late though.

the B

25-07-2004, 21:55

Alonso was generally being slow...the gap to Michael wasn't moving much as he was coasting/nursing but the cars behind were catching pretty quick...

I don't think the helmet thing is that distracting for any reasonable driver. Many are used to one handed driving as they change certain characteristics of the car on the steering wheel during a lap like brake balance and he was doing it on the straights mostly when a driver isn't doing a whole lot.

I think Button was driving alright for some of the GP, but it wasn't an all round great drive. He made life difficult for himself by not making the pass on Alonso via the pits. Made it entertaining to watch but doesn't mean Button is a better driver in my opinion.

the B

26-07-2004, 15:26

There seem to be lots of stories around about how Button could have won...even though his fastest lap wasn't that competitive and he was driving hard for most of the race. He set a 1'14"117

Kimi and Michael did 1'13"780 and 1'13"783. Michael may have gone on to set faster times if Kimi had been around to push him.

The really shocking thing is that the Toyota B spec is fast.

Panis was the fourth fastest driver with a 1'14"247

Rubens Barrichello has said the first lap shunt that ruined his GP was his fault. Not often you hear racing drivers own up to things...

mr_eko

26-07-2004, 16:17

Ok B I get what u'r saying about good drives now and you are correct Jenson hasn't really had one of those yet, but u've got to cut the guy a little more slack. He had a good start and was actually behind sato but got caught up in the barchello incident and dropped right back to 12th or 13th but he fought his way back. And he didn't pass Alonso in the pits but im sure he overtook him on the road before Alonso's gremlins kicked in.

the B

26-07-2004, 17:04

Alonso's gremlins were there for ages - at one point Montoya was half a minute behind Alonso and Button. He was quickly less than 10 seconds behind. With reference to Montoya, Button is pretty lucky he fell off the track and let him through...

Anyway, while defensive driving may account for some of the way Montoya caught up as the GP went on, it shouldn't have amounted to as much as it did considering they were generally edging away from him before Alonso had his front wing problem and Button pressuring him.

Button's start was fairly poor, he lost a place because he outbraked himself and went off the track - only lost a place for it but you'd of expected him to do actually make some ground off the start considering he had two Jaguars in front of him.

I doubt he got caught up in the Barrichello incident - Coulthard lost a small piece of bodywork, Barrichello obviously lost his wing and Montoya (who had a terrible start) had to slow right down to avoid running over the wing. Webber and all the cars would have followed the racing line and got through just fine...

He did drive well in a fairly large part of the grand prix to make up the ground he did - but he really should have just leaped Alonso on second or the third pit stop period. He managed to make up for it (in the end) by passing him but he previously had upto 5 laps of low fuel running and clear track to get ahead of Alonso before the pit stops and come out ahead.

It was a decent drive but not spectacular or indicative of a real racing great in my opinion.

thelittlechef

26-07-2004, 21:32

I disagree - I think it was without doubt a very good drive. I'm sure Schu could have done it better, but then he is (and it pains me to say it because I wish he wasn't!) a breed apart from all the other drivers. IMHO Button is good, very good and deserves a world championship - although I can't see it happening until Schu retires or Ferrari are forced to use square wheels...

the B

26-07-2004, 21:42

Webber had a good drive, he got a shit car and got decent points in it overtaking some drivers in better cars along the way. His only slip was letting Montoya through but I'm not sure he could have done much about that since Montoya was significantly faster.

thelittlechef

26-07-2004, 21:44

I loved Webbers cheeky move following Button through at the hairpin. I am really looking forward to seeing how he performs (especially in qualifying) when he has a competative car underneath him.

Ich bin ein Mod

27-07-2004, 01:30

Not sure Button's done enough to deserve a world championship really. And Webber has underperformed, his best result is still his 5th place in the Minardi

the B

27-07-2004, 04:26

He's in a Jaguar...give him some credit...

g force

27-07-2004, 08:11

Good GP again - nice to see some overtaking for a change.

Very impressed by the B spec Toyota - Ralf and Trulli may have a decent car after all! I'm unusre about Webber - plenty of talk of how great he is but next year we will see if he lives up to the hype - i'd expect regular podiums TBH and at least 5 in the drivers championship.

The Jag is awful but he's under no pressure to perform - at Williams he will be expected to perfrom every week, so then we'll see what he's made of.

All this talk of driver changes has begun to really piss me off - in particular hiow someone like Biratore can control a team and manage 4 drivers (out of 20 FFS!). I think there shoudl be a rule introduced to stop owners managing drivers because frankly, the treatment of Trulli stinks.

Edit - explanation: apparently he had to sign a new management contract with Flavio in order to stay on at Renault :mad:

Seems like it will be Fisi and Alonso at Renault and Webber and Heidfeld at Willaims

Ich bin ein Mod

27-07-2004, 16:14

He's in a Jaguar...give him some credit...
Its still better than the Minardi

the B

27-07-2004, 16:16

The Minardi got that fifth place because almost every other car on the track fell off at some point.

Ich bin ein Mod

27-07-2004, 16:19

But crucially it didn't fall off the track

the B

28-07-2004, 11:36

Fisichella has confirmed for Renault.

Webber has confirmed for Williams.

Davidson is looking less likely for the Sauber seat - it may instead go to Vitantonio Liuzzi, the F3000 championship leader. He is also in the running for a seat at Jaguar.

damaged goods

28-07-2004, 11:43

I don't think the helmet thing is that distracting for any reasonable driver. Many are used to one handed driving as they change certain characteristics of the car on the steering wheel during a lap like brake balance and he was doing it on the straights mostly when a driver isn't doing a whole lot.

I think Button was driving alright for some of the GP, but it wasn't an all round great drive. He made life difficult for himself by not making the pass on Alonso via the pits. Made it entertaining to watch but doesn't mean Button is a better driver in my opinion.

So trying not to choke by lifting the helmet up whilst driving at nigh on 200mph one handed and trying to concentrate on an imminent overtaking manouvre is not just a little distracting?.... sure these drivers are of an elite but I couldn't imagine many others that wouldn't rather pit then continue in such a situation.

Would be interesting to see how many laps Button could have gone for before having to come in.... One Handed F1 Bernie? ;)

g force

28-07-2004, 12:14

Fisi to renault is a great move, I just hope Nick can get the second Williams seat he deserves.

Luizzi is a class act by all account and Sauber would be a very good first drive for him, much more so than Jaguar, where I think Ant will end up. I thought Klien might also move to Sauber with Massa going the other way due to the Red Bull link but he may just stay at Jag.

But, BAR have gone to lengths to point out that Sato hasn't been singed for next year, which makes me think they're weighing up Ant and maybe even Nick as possible replacements.

the B

28-07-2004, 12:35

So trying not to choke by lifting the helmet up whilst driving at nigh on 200mph one handed and trying to concentrate on an imminent overtaking manouvre is not just a little distracting?.... sure these drivers are of an elite but I couldn't imagine many others that wouldn't rather pit then continue in such a situation.

Would be interesting to see how many laps Button could have gone for before having to come in.... One Handed F1 Bernie? ;)

Not to choke? That's an exaggeration I've been reading in many places...

And he was doing this on the straights only - when F1 drivers have relatively little to do.

kyser_soze

28-07-2004, 12:47

the B

28-07-2004, 12:54

Okay B, let;'s put you in a car that does 200MPH+ on straights, give you a lossew chinstrap that cuts your breathing off and see if you can even keep the car in a straight line.

And given that he came up from 13th on the grid I'd say that was a pretty decent afternoons driving.

*sings* only 4 weeks til I go to Spa for the weekend*

It wasn't a loose chinstrap. It wasn't cutting off his breathing. It was a loose strap that held his visor in place...:rolleyes:

He didn't have a solidly good drive - it was good in places, shit in others.

And for a Formula 1 driver - when you're going down the straights, your mind is very much free to do other things.

The 'great' or I'd guess most of the drivers tend to be able to drive along and have their mind working away at other things as they drive.

The only reason Button probably took his hand off the visor at all is that an F1 car just takes a lot of elbow to turn. I don't think it would have distracted him that much - especially as he did it just down the straights.

g force

28-07-2004, 16:29

The odds ojn Liuzzi going to Sauber seem to have shortened now Ferrari have said they would like him as a long-term successor to MS.

source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/3933357.stm)

damaged goods

28-07-2004, 17:49

It wasn't a loose chinstrap. It wasn't cutting off his breathing. It was a loose strap that held his visor in place...:rolleyes:.

Has Button changed his mind as to what happened in the race? During the post race interview (which is available to read on the BAR website) he clearly states that the team initially thought it was a visor but it wasn't, the strap under the helmet was a little bit loose which in turn causes the helmet to lift up and catch on the throat making it very difficult to breathe. Therefore, he had to push the helmet down so that air could get in.

I don't mean to harp on about it but I know what I heard and as far as I know he hasn't gone back on what has already been said.

Anyway....Sato still unconfirmed for BAR, maybe an appropriate successor to Mr. Montoya?...oh, maybe not, he's not German is he...

:)

Epico

28-07-2004, 19:50

I can see Liuzzi being signed on a long term contract by Ferrari and then being loaned out to Sauber for a couple of years to see how he fairs. Sauber have the Ferrari connection through their engines - and Sauber and Liuzzi have the Red Bull sponsership in common.

Wasn't Filipe Massa touted to be Michael's eventual replacement? Getting Liuzzi into a race car would be a smart move.

I wonder why Trulli hasn't been mentioned more often in connection with the spare seat at Williams. I think he'd be a better signing than Heidfeld. Dispite Nick being in fairly crap cars for the majority of his career he hasn't shown too much promise recently - even Pantano seems to be getting closer to him in the last few races.

A pairing of Webber and Heidfeld seems a little too 'safe' for me. Both men are competant drivers but I see very little excitement in them. I guess by going for this couple Williams are hoping to save costs through preserving their cars, after having the turbulent Montoya and Ralf who were/are prone to roughing them up a fair bit.

I've never understood engine suppliers wanting a driver of the same nationality. You'd think that they might want the 'best driver' for the car. But that's just crazy talk!

g force

29-07-2004, 08:27

Well to a degree they do want the best driver, but if they're the appropriate nationality all the better.

I agree on Trulli - he would be a good driver for Williams, it's just I want Nick to have a good drive - i'd be happy if he went to Toyota TBH because they have potential, and being based in Cologne a German would fit right in. It's obvious Toyota signed Ralf he has a massive crash and now they're panicing and offering Trulli silly money to drive.

A Webber/DC driver line up would also be very conservative. I still where the hell DC is going to end up - i'd think Jag but I imagine he'd prefer Sauber.

I think Sato will probably stay at BAR unless they can get someone with more potential and Ferrari seem to be snapping up the best talent. Of the rest Toccacelo looks very quick, Doornbos, Giammaria and Enge aqll have potential. Of course, the could pick Ant but i'm not sure Honda want 2 brits in the team.

damaged goods

29-07-2004, 12:28

I agree g-force, I feel that Sato will remain at BAR, he seems to fit comfortably into the team and I can see no reason why he would want to move at this time. Geoff Willis has denied any rumour of wanting to replace Sato but to be honest I am a little surprised that he is still unconfirmed for 2005.

Davidson has been linked to Sauber to replace Fisi but of course nothing is certain. It would be good to see Davidson prove his abilities at race level.

Heidfeld looks most certain to replace Ralf, not only because Williams attempted to sign him in time for the German GP, which was prevented by Eddie Jordan, but also because I feel that it is more important to BMW to have a German driver than they are actually making out.

I doubt that Mika or Jaques will be back for 2005, there's a lot of uncertainty and a good deal of baggage and cost which comes with these two.... who next, Nigel Mansell?!!

Ich bin ein Mod

29-07-2004, 12:29

Sato's only with BAR cos of the Honda engine deal. He wrecks too many cars to be competitive and makes silly mistakes

g force

29-07-2004, 12:49

I think talk of JV and the Hakk is very misplaced - they've been out of it too long, cost too much when in comparison to the good drivers who are still around

Teams for 2005 from what we know. I'll put my preferences/best guesses in brackets:

Ferrari - MS + Rubens
Tester: Badoer/Luizzi

McLaren - JPM + Kimi
Tester: Wurz/De la Rosa

Williams - Webber + (Hiedfeld/Davidson)
Tester: Pizzonia

Renault - Alonso + Fisichella
Tester: Montagny

BAR - Button + Sato
Tester: Davidson/new driver

Sauber - (Luizzi/DC) + (Paffett/Davidson)
Tester: Massa/Luizzi

Jaguar - (DC) + (Klien - they need the Red Bull $$)
Tester: Panis?

Toyota - Ralf + Trulli - that seems like a done deal to me
Tester: Zonta

Jordan - (Pantano) + (Verstappen - for the $$)
Tester: Glock

Minardi - (Bruni)+ (anyone)
Tester: :(

The biggest deal is who gets the secodn Williams seat - can't see it being DC - so of the other possibilites there's Trulli (Toyota most likely), Ant (inexperienced) or Nick.

Now, Sauber may take the risk on 2 very young drivers - Paffeet seems like a front runner from what Peter Sauber has been saying and Luizzi will be signed by Ferrari and prolly loaned out to gain epxerience. Doubt they'll keep Massa TBH.

God knows what's happening at Jordan - are they the team being taken over? Seems like it but still no official word. Minardi have lost their lead sponsor so will be rent-a-drive again.

damaged goods

30-07-2004, 11:47

God knows what's happening at Jordan - are they the team being taken over?

From what I've read, the Emirate of Dubai announced that it intends to buy control of an F1 team which will be ran from Dubai whilst leaving the operational base in Britain.

Apparently Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed al-Maktoum is in advanced negotiations with an unannounced team. Rumour has it that the team they intend to buy is Jordan which will become known as the 'official' Dubai Team.

Jordan has neither confirmed nor denied but one thing is for certain, the Emirate of Dubai is certainly not short of a few quid.....

....could they be the Roman Abramovich of F1?

g force

30-07-2004, 12:48

Christ knows...more importantly can they save a flagging team?

Jordan have problems way beyond simple finances. The aero on the car is generally considered quite good but the chassis (traditionally a Jordan strength) is piss poor. The management ain't great. The good technical staff have left for Renault, Toyota and Jag.

And then there's the real problem...the crappy Cosworth. Unless these people are investing in Ford as well the car will still be slow. If they throw a lot of money at either Merc or mebbe Renault (can't see that happening) to get a decent customer engine then they'll make progress. But without a decent engine and great aero/chassis work, Jordan will still be fighting with Minardi and Jag near the back.

The only light might be the new regs which may give them some hope.

GarfieldLeChat

30-07-2004, 16:16

dubai buying jorden hmmm sound's a little ironic if they had to change their name eh!!! :D

damaged goods

30-07-2004, 18:25

Also, the Hungarian GP is being held on Assumption Day................Feasts....................Hungary..............geddit?........... :D

mmmm.......i'll be off then.............

the B

30-07-2004, 23:40

Well, it's a GP I don't expect Ferrari to win - or will find it difficult to win at.

damaged goods

31-07-2004, 16:04

I dunno, as much as I dislike the Red Wash I always half expect Ferrari to win, simply because of their performance so far this season.

Hungary will be tight though, a lot will depend on the qualifying positions and strategy what with the circuit being notoriously slow and lacking in overtaking opportunities. If Kimi, JB, Alonso et al can qualify ahead of Schumi then I feel Ferrari will have quite a fight on their hands.

If Schumi does end up on pole I think that Kimi could prove a real pain in the arse and, provided there isn't a repeat of Hockenheim, could go onto win.

In all, expect Schumi to win, would like to see Kimi stop him but also hoping to see JB grab his first victory.

Two weeks and counting!......

the B

31-07-2004, 16:14

I don't see Schumacher getting the pole or close to it. The circuit doesn't suit the Ferrari or Bridgestone tyres.

And there has only been one winner of that GP who didn't start in the top 3 I think - Nigel Mansell of all people...from 17th I think?

damaged goods

31-07-2004, 18:13

the B

02-08-2004, 02:52

Whoever thought some other manufacturer who thought they were good is going to win the constructors...I'll put money on the fact that they don't. It can only be Renault and only if they get a 1 and 2 at every Grand Prix of the season provided Ferrari don't score at least 11 points for the rest of the season...

Anyway, Damon Hill is said to be making an appearence...on I'm a Wankface Idiot Who Wants To Get Ouf of Here...:rolleyes:

Ferrari to take the constructors in Belgium then?

g force

02-08-2004, 08:26

Yeah, it was during his time at Ferrari, he started in 12th and after scything his way up to 2nd managed to go on to win after pulling off a double overtake manouvre on Ayrton Senna and a backmarker!........ahh, they were the days!

Ah yes...ranks alongside the Piquet double move at Brands, and ovetrtakign Berger on the outside of the final turn at Mexico as on of the overtaking manouvers in F1 - bet Steffan Johansen didn't know what the hell had happened!! Could always rely on Nige for an overtaking opportunity :D

Who said they weren't going to win it :eek: Spa for sure - MSloves that circuit, although on current form, I think Kimi will be right up there, and so will Button and Sato.

the B

02-08-2004, 08:54

Jean Todt has rubbished claims that Mosley's proposals for F1 would improve the spectacle of F1 by increasing overtaking because they don't focus on the brakes and that ultimately, the fast cars are the front of the grid (usually).

He was probably being a little cheeky by saying to increase overtaking he should start cars in reverse order...

Apparently, the FW26 will be much faster in Hungary because they've solved some of the problems with being abrasive on the tyres while increasing downforce even more.

g force

02-08-2004, 09:30

Well I hope so - I've never been a massive Williams fan but I don't like to see them struggling as they are.

Is Ralf still out for this one? there's been rumours of a return but I really wouldn't like to see the guy get back in a car too soon in case he does some serious damage to himself.

The best way to improve the spectacle is to ban all driver aids full stop, the problem is enforcement. Traction control makes F1 cars like driving an aracde game - I want to see people drifting! Brakes would be difficult given the advancements made I think some people would argue it woudl be dangerous to do anything radical to the brakes - maybe make them smaller?

I think reverse order wouldn't work because it would take away from one of the greatest aspects of the sport - the fight for pole. Perhaps they could work on some sort of ballast system as in the BTCC where if you win a couple of races you get weight put on.

the B

02-08-2004, 09:38

damaged goods

02-08-2004, 11:25

How about a manual gearbox and slicks?

Now that would sort the men from the boys!

the B

02-08-2004, 12:20

How about a manual gearbox and slicks?

Now that would sort the men from the boys!

Slicks would make it even easier for everyone, they'd have more grip and the racing would arguably become more dangerous as the cornering speeds would increase by a fair amount. The amount of rubber on the grooved tyres compared to slicks is about 17% less I think.

As for manual gearboxes - it'll never happen...Formula 1 is more than just a challenge for drivers, it's also about the people who make the cars and all.

Ich bin ein Mod

02-08-2004, 21:41

When traction control was illegal but everyone was probably using it anyway because it was hard to prove they were using it...the cars weren't drifting or sliding around because it's not the fastest way to get the cars around a circuit...so it'll never happen.
There's another arguement for driver aids, they act as a leveller slightly. So without them Schummi would probably be further from the chasing pack, who'd be further from the Jordan drivers of the world who'd be further from the Minardi drivers

the B

02-08-2004, 22:39

There's another arguement for driver aids, they act as a leveller slightly. So without them Schummi would probably be further from the chasing pack, who'd be further from the Jordan drivers of the world who'd be further from the Minardi drivers

There's little/no evidence for that.

What there is would be a comparison between old grids and new where the difference between pole and the back would be as much as say 7 seconds or so...but those were the turbo days...

And I reckon most drivers can 'turn it on' for one lap during qualifying - the difference would be there during the races - but because of 'tactical' racing...like how Schumacher slows at the end to nurse his car over the line safely rather than risk it all setting fast laps means it's hard to judge the differences.

damaged goods

03-08-2004, 12:04

As for manual gearboxes - it'll never happen...Formula 1 is more than just a challenge for drivers, it's also about the people who make the cars and all.

Manual gearboxes are one of many proposed changes to take place for the 2008 season, off course this proposal could well be blown out of the water. You say F1 is more than just a challenge for the drivers, it's also about the constructors....would it not be a challenge to the constructors to have to implement manual transmission into their cars?

Talking of driver aids, wasn't traction control introduced by teams at the same time as grooved tyres became an FIA regulation, in order to compensate for the lost grip?

And will Ron Dennis sell Mclaren to DaimlerChrysler?......

.....the rumours continue!

kyser_soze

03-08-2004, 12:23

would it not be a challenge to the constructors to have to implement manual transmission into their cars?

No it woudn't - given that one of the teams is experimenting with a ceramic gearbox switching from semi-auto to manual wouldn't be that hard.

This whole technology argument is bollock - F1 is supposed to be about pushing men, machines and materials to the absolute limit - the fact that limit is now on a par with space exploration when it comes to materials and technologies is an inevitable result of the sport pushing itself further and further.

I was having a row with someone in the pub about this last week - they're one of those 'The drivers don't drive, it's all the pit crews and the car technology' (we were having a discussion about Schuey at the time) types who seem to think F1's been going downhill since they allowed disc brakes in the cars...

I think the most interesting thing about this is when (I think) Niki Lauder took one of the 02/03 Ferraris round a track having spent time saying 'It's all too easy these days' he spun the car 3 times in half a lap and got out saying it was too difficult.

As for levelling the field...Schuey already won one F1 title with a supposed 2nd strand team years ago...nah, it's simply bitching because at the moment, Ferrari have the best overall package that has enough strength-in-depth to be able to compensate for areas where opposing teams do have an advantage.

the B

03-08-2004, 14:18

Talking of driver aids, wasn't traction control introduced by teams at the same time as grooved tyres became an FIA regulation, in order to compensate for the lost grip?

Maybe that was the cover story but the reality was, many teams were allegedly using it already and it was impossible to be sure whether they were or not.

So, may as well legalise it and level the playing field...

Bit like drugs and athletes maybe...

damaged goods

04-08-2004, 11:58

F1 is supposed to be about pushing men, machines and materials to the absolute limit

But is F1 really pushing the drivers to the absolute limit?

Drivers aids are there to assist the drivers by using technology. So maybe the machines and materials are being pushed, but take these away or even just reduce them a little and then the drivers true level of talent would be exposed. Without any technological assistance, would we see the same drivers that we have at present?

I'm not questioning the skills or sheer levels of fitness required to drive in F1 these days but it is plain to see that technology has a major role to play in deciding who ends up where on the grid.

Niki Lauder took one of the 02/03 Ferraris round a track having spent time saying 'It's all too easy these days' he spun the car 3 times in half a lap and got out saying it was too difficult.

hehe, this reminds me of Nigel Mansell at the Regent Street parade when he drove the Jordan..... stalling it on the tight corner outside Liberty's..... couldn't help but cheer :D I think he thought it would be like riding a bike!

the B

04-08-2004, 12:12

The drivers want to win, they push themselves to the absolute limit. Simple as that.

kyser_soze

04-08-2004, 12:12

But is F1 really pushing the drivers to the absolute limit?

That IS an interesting point - depends what you would consider the limit.

Lets take a driver aid such as ABS. Been around years now, but it has enabled F1 (and road cars) to push decellrative speeds to the limit. Remember the old highway code back page with the thinking/stopping distances? F1 now makes those numbers look ridiculous. 190-30 mph in what, 50M? 7g decceleration, 6gs through corners...and all this between 50 and 70 times over a couple of hours often in blazing sunshine on exposed ground.

There is no comparison with 'old skool' drivers, and if you are talking abotu 'raw talent' it's all there to see in F3000, karting and the pre-F1 competitions, where the F1 driving pool is refreshed from. And given that these cars are completely 'primitive' in no driver aids and are all mechnically identical, I'd say that regardless of technology, you'd still see the same drivers on the grid.

And personally, I still think you'd see the same groups of drivers in the top 6 regardless.

g force

04-08-2004, 12:37

That's an interesting point abotut he talented pool and i'd argue there's a seriosu problem there too. Talent isn't really coming through!!!

Generaly safety means drivers staying at the top for longer. Sad to say but in the 60s right through to the 80s drivers died, or were sacked on an almost monthly basis. If you look at the driver turnover at even the ultra successful teams they moved around.

And then there's the lack of seats available. F3000 and F3 are great ways into F1 but now money and sponsorship is beginning to make them irrelevant. Not so long ago (well 15 years) there were 16 teams fighting to get on the grid but costs forced many of them out of F1. Yeah to Coloni, Eurobrun, Leyton House were a bit shit but it gave guys a chnace to show they could drive and let other teams see what they could do.

Now if you look at how many GPs many of the drivers have driven, even the younger guys, they have a good few under their belt.

I have nothing personally against Massa, Klien et al as they are obviously fairly talented but when a team backed by Ford, one of the biggest manufacturers FFS! takes money from Red Bull to let a driver in ahead of someone like Justin Wilson who totally and utterly destroyed the so called "next big things" in F3000, or Wirhiem who beat everyone in sight just 2 years ago then you know something is wrong.

Luizzi might be lucky and be signed by Ferrari, but that's very much the exception to the rule IMO. The talk of bringing back JV and Hakk is the same - they've had their chance - one of them retired the other burnt his bridges - let someone else in and lets see how good they are.

I only hope the new rule changes will see teams like Joest, SuperNova, and Arden join F1 to at least increase the number of seats, but it's clutching at straws.

kyser_soze

04-08-2004, 13:11

I know what you mean - but this is more a problem with the way drivers have to fund themselves than anything else.

I do agree about the costs meaning there are less teams, and increased safety means that the attrition rate isn't quite what it should be but I honestly don't think you're going to radically alter F1 unless there is a maximum spending cap placed on teams.

g force

04-08-2004, 14:57

Right it is and that's the crux of the problem - drivers face enough problems coming up through carts, F3, F3000 to worry about whether they have sufficient funds to try and get a drive in F1.

Some are lucky to have rich parents, othter aren't but it should be about the talent, ie, Wilson rather than the $ like Klien. Fucks me right off that a totally average journeyman like Verstappen can get so many drives/tests and gets linked with empty seats because he has cash when Jordan could take on Wilson or someone similar.

Jackie Stewart was on TV the toher making the exact sam point - he said that if he was young driver today he might be able to make it becuase his parents supported him, but doubted whether he'd have got into F1. Now i'm not suggesting that there's a few Schumachers out there who won't make it because of this, but there's certianly great talent that will be lost.

A spending cap won't work - teams will get round it. Having common components might but flying to far flung corners so Bernie can run fag sponsorship to boost his pension fund will negate all of that.

the B

04-08-2004, 15:57

I don't the fly away races are costing the teams that much considering they should be receiving significantly more sponsorship as a result.

In other news, Ralf Schumacher is due to do a 50km shakedown to see if he is realy fully fit and able to race. Williams may also use this as a chance to test out some aerodynamic parts, this is legal, and they may include a more conventional front wing.

damaged goods

04-08-2004, 19:38

From what I've heard, Ralf will be running with a brand new front nose to replace the 'walrus' nose in conjunction with his race fitness test.

Williams are planning to use the new nose at Hungary if testing proves successful.....likewise for Ralf!

the B

04-08-2004, 20:08

Don't think Williams have enough in the car to stop them slipping behind McLaren in the constructors championship anyway...

wordie

05-08-2004, 06:05

In other news, Ralf Schumacher is due to do a 50km shakedown to see if he is realy fully fit and able to race.
Well we already know he's not able to race. But he IS good at shutting the door while someone tries to overtake him! :mad:

I've said it before and I'll say it again; if his name was Ralf Bloggs he wouldn't be driving a dustcart, and I still can't understand why Toyota chose to sign him on a mega-million deal. They must have more money than sense.

Still, let's see what happens next year, especially as Panis has talked up the new Toy as being the dogs danglies. I'm prepared to eat humble pie if Ralf get's consistent podiums, but somehow I don't think that's going to happen.

No hiding place now Ralf!

g force

05-08-2004, 08:06

It's his final hurrah - is Gascoigne sorts the car out Ralf looks like a star, if it's shit he quits for DTM with $$$$$$ saying the team was "unprofessional" or some such bollocks.

Williams really should have admitted defeat with that nose a long time ago - it's clear the aero on the car was buggered. Thy're too far behind BAR and McLaren so 4th look like the best they can hopr for, unless Renault step up a bit.

Williams 5th... :eek:

edit: Ralf won't be racing in Hungary - he's spines not healed properly, Pizzonia will be in place, apparently. Hmmmm....only 1 points score in Hungary, and i'm guessign Renault will get 2, BAR at least 1, McLaren 2.

wordie

05-08-2004, 09:15

Williams really should have admitted defeat with that nose a long time ago - it's clear the aero on the car was buggered. Thy're too far behind BAR and McLaren so 4th look like the best they can hopr for, unless Renault step up a bit.

Williams 5th... :eek:
TBH I think BMW and Dr Strangelove (aka Thiessen) exert way to much influence over the tech boys at Williams. Tis the German way! They think they're way better than everyone else, and can't resist telling them. Often.

That has to be a disruptive factor in any team. Look at Toyota. I mean, setting up in that hotbed of F1 technology and resources called Cologne. What the f**k is that all about?

However Williams have always been the quintessential BRITISH racing team, and when they have the bottle to control the technology, (i.e. when they partnered Renault and Honda) they were very impressive world champs.

All this meddling and sniping from BMW is totally un-productive, and it wouldn't surprise me if the retained the walrus snout because the Germans thought it differentiated their car from the pack.... in marketing terms of course.

Why do you think Patrick has handed over to Sam Michael? And Frank has talked about retiring at some stage?

Or is that all too, too cynical of me?
:D

wordie

05-08-2004, 09:17

Ralf won't be racing in Hungary -
Good!

The less I see of him and his ego, the happier both I and F1 racing will be! :mad: :mad: :mad:

g force

05-08-2004, 09:44

There's plenty of behind the scenes stuff going on for sure, but i'm not sure it's any worse now than before. BMW are very hands on, in the same way Mercedes are with McLaren but they spend a shite load of money on the engines and they aren't doing very well.

So, they get a say in what should happen, but to me, seem more vocal in their intentions - it's exactly the same deal with Honda and BAR - I guarantee they have frank discussion about what's happening but don't air them in public. That has to be down to Thiessen - it's interesting that as soon as someone who knows F1 inside out and is respected in the paddock (Berger) leaves things start to go wrong....coincidence....I don't think so!

Part of me thinks BMW would like to set up their own team, but don't have the bollocks to do for fear of their brand being muddied by Toyota-esque failures. I also think they don't have the $$$ of Toyota or even VW to do it.

wordie

05-08-2004, 09:59

That has to be down to Thiessen - it's interesting that as soon as someone who knows F1 inside out and is respected in the paddock (Berger) leaves things start to go wrong....coincidence....I don't think so!

Part of me thinks BMW would like to set up their own team, but don't have the bollocks to do for fear of their brand being muddied by Toyota-esque failures.

I think that's pretty close to the truth!

Easier to blame Williams for their failures than to have to look at yourself in the mirror!

Pity about Berger wasn't it? he always struck me as being a sane and interesting sort of guy who called a spade a spade. Obviously didn't go down too well in Munich!