That place for young hip and trendy people [Archive]

Anna Key

06-12-2003, 13:48

A little bird told me it would have opened earlier had the river Effra not suddenly started bubbling up into the basement.

A builder swung his pickaxe one morning and found himself knee deep in water. Apparently it was like being in the engine room of the Titanic. Several tons of ready mix had to be poured to discipline the River God.

So maybe the hip and trendy ones, who shalt inherit the Earth or, at least, Brixton, will get a drenching.

Oh Tamara! We were dancin' to groovy ambyant computa sounz and suddenly, like, floated away! It was, like, really, like, scary and, like, uncool!! Me and Araminta could have ended up in a sewer culvert!! In Vauxhall!! Fortunately we surfaced in the Living Bar toilets and a nice man called Larry charged us only £16 for a cocktail!! Sorted!!

Edited to add:

The Effra (http://www.thames.org.uk/pages/guide4.htm)

Running into the river very close to Vauxhall Bridge is the River Effra, another of London's "lost rivers". Like the others the Effra has been reduced over the years to nothing more than a drain. there are, however, stories that King Canute once sailed up the Effra and that Queen Elizabeth once did the same when visiting Sir Walter Raleigh. These may not be true but what is certain is that in 1664 the Effra was of sufficient size and importance for Lord Loughborough to propose converting it into a navigable canal from Brixton to the Thames.

Pie 1

07-12-2003, 08:23

Originally posted by hatboy

(No comment on the people). :)

:D

Walked past it yesterday - looks a bit cheap & nasty if you ask me - Seems they're "concept dining experience" didn't really make it past the laminate floor shop on acre lane

detective-boy

07-12-2003, 09:35

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anna Key
[b]Oh Tamara! We were dancin' to groovy ambyant computa sounz and suddenly, like, floated away! It was, like, really, like, scary and, like, uncool!! Me and Araminta could have ended up in a sewer culvert!! In Vauxhall!! Fortunately we surfaced in the Living Bar toilets and a nice man called Larry charged us only £16 for a cocktail!! Sorted!![QUOTE]

:D lol to Anna Key

And as for the info. about the Effra by the way, the present Lord Loughborough is a Commander in the Met. He's head of Royalty and Diplomatic Protection and copped some of the flak over the Aaron Barchak thing at Windsor.

Orang Utan

07-12-2003, 14:02

Originally posted by Anna Key
[B] We were dancin' to groovy ambyant computa sounz [/i]

played by a popular beat combo on the gramophone? How we waltzed the night away. I didn't get to bed til 1 in the morning! Pass the pipe and slippers.

WasGeri

07-12-2003, 17:28

Is laminate flooring naff then? I quite like mine :)

Orang Utan

07-12-2003, 23:47

My flat's done in laminate too - I fucking hate carpets

hatboy

08-12-2003, 00:00

I think describing things as "very laminate" could catch on.

Yeah wood floors are nice, but it's when it's that bleached-out colour. In this place it's all so faded-out looking. Bland, bland, bland.

hendo

08-12-2003, 08:29

I don't have anything to do with the new business setting up on Atlantic Road, but I wish it all the best.

That site was half derelict until they moved in and refurbished it, and its nice to see some more money and jobs arriving in that part of the street. It must be cheerful for the people who own flats above it to have them open, since having a derelict shop underneath them must have been a headache.

I won't lie awake at night worrying that an increasingly prosperous Brixton might look on the surface to be a bit like Clapham. IMHO Clapham is looking rather run down anyway.

We can all sneer about the laminate. But it takes guts to open a legitimate business, and hard work to run a restaurant; so fair play to them.

fanta

08-12-2003, 11:51

What exactly is wrong with Clapham?

Why does the place and the people who live there incur so much antipathy and derision?

Apart from the cost - which is applicable to London anyway!

(not directed at you personally hendo)

hatboy

08-12-2003, 15:03

Despite popular perception I never mention Clapham like that myself.

"We can all sneer about the laminate. But it takes guts to open a legitimate business, and hard work to run a restaurant; so fair play to them".

Yes, but why when things change round here why is it always in one direction - blandly upmarket? And what's stopping them making it more imaginative in style? Perhaps cost, perhaps alot of people (those some call yuppies) feel comfortable with bland.

Plus that building, "Pacific Mews" (yeah whatever) is the most bodged, rip-off, con-artist unfinished piece of "regeneration" I've seen in awhile. Luxury apartments - bollocks, the place is falling apart!

hendo

08-12-2003, 15:32

Putting the debate about Clapham aside for a mo, surely there couldn't really be a case for leaving that building as it was; it looked very sad.

I see what you mean about bland, HB, but if it isn't what people want it'll shut.

I reckon it'll do OK, but I'd be amazed if it usurps the fantastic Lounge in my affections.

hatboy

08-12-2003, 15:39

Of course it shouldn't stay derelict. But it should have been done up properly. Look at that building closely. Nothing is finished off properly. It's a great big rip-off bodge and I think people who bought over-priced flats there should complain to the developer that they haven't finished the work!

"I see what you mean about bland, HB, but if it isn't what people want it'll shut."

It probably is what some people want. Conservative young professionals like bland bar interiors.

Bond

08-12-2003, 19:35

Might check it out soon :p ;)

Pie 1

09-12-2003, 08:49

Originally posted by hatboy
Luxury apartments - bollocks, the place is falling apart!

Literally.
The whole of the front fell off it about a year or so ago didn't it, closing Atlantic road for a couple of days.

Brixton Hatter

09-12-2003, 12:56

I think the place is called 66 Atlantic. One thing I don't like about a lot of these new bars is that they can't even be bothered to think up a proper name! SW9, the 333 Club, the 100 pub etc etc - they could have thought up something interesting, relevant to the local community/culture etc. It just shows a lack of imagination IMO.
Maybe we should organise an Urban visit and ruff the place up a bit Well, this I definitely agree with!

That site was half derelict until they moved in and refurbished it. Not exactly true. I believe that a property developer did the whole row of shops up a few years ago and this is one of the last to be rented out. To be fair though, it's good that there's a variety of shops along there now, compared to the state they were in about 4 years ago, and yes, new jobs are always welcome.

hatboy

09-12-2003, 13:07

In general I think the regeneration of upper Atlantic Rd is a success. It's just all these bland bars that leave me cold. Shame Railton above is still a bit of a dump, mainly due to previous poor planning of new buildings post riot and a postcode boundary affecting funding I think.

Minnie_the_Minx

09-12-2003, 14:42

Originally posted by Brixton Hatter
I think the place is called 66 Atlantic. One thing I don't like about a lot of these new bars is that they can't even be bothered to think up a proper name! SW9, the 333 Club, the 100 pub etc etc - they could have thought up something interesting, relevant to the local community/culture etc. It just shows a lack of imagination IMO.

Yes, something like 333bah, 100bah and SW9bah

BTW: George IV is now officially called the George Four evidenced by a brand new pub sign.

Must be for the people who were crap at Roman numerals:rolleyes: :D

dum dum

09-12-2003, 14:43

Checked this place out today it sucked.

IntoStella

09-12-2003, 14:48

Originally posted by Minnie_the_Minx
George IV is now officially called the George Four evidenced by a brand new pub sign.
Must be for the people who were crap at Roman numerals Yeah, everybody thought it was short for George Intra-Venous. ;)

Dum dum: THEY LET YOU IN???? :D :p ;)

Minnie_the_Minx

09-12-2003, 14:52

Originally posted by IntoStella
Yeah, everybody thought it was short for George Intra-Venous. ;)
I]

Having seen the punters outside, that's quite possible;) :D

Never seen the pub look such a shithole as it does the night after one of their late night sessions. Total disgrace :o ;)

hendo

09-12-2003, 16:09

Did you eat there Dum Dum? What was it like?

Orang Utan

09-12-2003, 16:15

I wouldn't dare go in George IV - it's like something out of Bosch painting - The Fridge bar is bad enough - it makes me come over all Anna Key - hellish moronic music danced to by irritating gurning fluffybooted ketmonkeys

Minnie_the_Minx

09-12-2003, 16:18

Originally posted by Orang Utan
I wouldn't dare go in George IV - it's like something out of Bosch painting - The Fridge bar is bad enough - it makes me come over all Anna Key - hellish moronic music danced to by irritating gurning fluffybooted ketmonkeys

I would't know, haven't been in there since it became a clubby type of thing.

I used to drink in there when it was a REAL pub :o :D

Telegraph looks like shite as well :mad:

IntoStella

09-12-2003, 18:06

Originally posted by Orang Utan
The Fridge bar is bad enough - it makes me come all over Anna Key :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Orang Utan

09-12-2003, 20:19

Originally posted by IntoStella
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Sorry, maybe I should have asked first

isvicthere?

10-12-2003, 09:11

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Minnie_the_Minx
Having seen the punters outside, that's quite possible;) :D

Never seen the pub look such a shithole as it does the night after one of their late night sessions. Total disgrace :o ;) [/QUOTE

Yeah, last time I was in there I was with two girls who wanted to go out for some air. We asked the gestapo monkey on the door (who must be into martial arts, cos he was a right shortarse little twat) if that was all right and he said yeah. When we came back he let them in but tried to charge me re-admission and threatened me when I reminded him that he said he would re-admit me. I didn't make much of a fuss, cos I wasn't really that bothered about going back in.

I agree with Minnie - it was a bit of a shithole when it was a pub. But now it's a right fucking state.

editor

10-12-2003, 09:24

Re: new café/bar
Atlantic Road used to be a barren - and rather uncomfortable - part of Brixton and now there's the excellent mid-priced Lounge, an ultra-cheap café and this laminate-tastic cafe/bar, along with
a mixed range of shops catering to a wide range of budgets/tastes.

It's not like some old traditional pub has been suddenly yuppified and all the regulars turfed out - it's just another café/bar on a previously run down part of Brixton (run by a Brixtonite)

I really don't see what the problem is: if you don't like this new café/bar - don't go! It's as simple as that! It's not going to affect earnings in the Albert or the Phoenix, and although the argument that rising business rents is going to affect some areas of Brixton, you can't blame individual shops for that - they're merely responding to the demand.

I like the choice and don't see how the swanky new cafés can't get along just fine with the old fashioned greasy spoons.

hatboy

10-12-2003, 10:53

My basic feeling is "oh good luck to them" but that sign about "Brixton's hip and happening crowd" and the blandly fashionable and blonde-wood interior really put me off.

I've said already I think upper Atlantic Rd is a success in regeneration terms, although rent hikes are already forcing out some of the first wave of new shops (eg Compulsion).

rennie

10-12-2003, 11:44

well dum dum n i went it, saw their mural about "never mind the bollocks here comes the atlantic", checked out the cocktail list n then headed to the lounge... so he lied, somewhat! :eek: :D ;)

Brixton Hatter

10-12-2003, 12:34

My basic feeling is "oh good luck to them" but that sign about "Brixton's hip and happening crowd" and the blandly fashionable and blonde-wood interior really put me off. I totally agree. I'm not at all against the new bar and I'm sure I'll pop in for a pint of genius at some point - but as I said before I just think there's so many bland, generic bars around now - where's the imagination? They obviously want to cater for a young middle class crowd who've got money to burn on cocktails etc - which is fine if that's their thing - but why does the actual bar look so bland? I went in a similar "trendy" bar in Lordship Lane few months ago (can't remember what it's called) that was done really well - nice colour schemes, candles, good pics on the wall by local artists, a mashup of pics of cool/famous men/women on the respective toilet doors etc etc. It doesn't take much imagination to create a interesting environment - IMHO a bland wooden interior is a totally missed opportunity to create something interesting to add to the diverse & intersting area we live in.I think upper Atlantic Rd is a success in regeneration terms Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I'd rather Atlantic 666 was there than an empty shop.

CK1977

10-12-2003, 13:06

I totally agree. I'm not at all against the new bar and I'm sure I'll pop in for a pint of genius at some point - but as I said before I just think there's so many bland, generic bars around now - where's the imagination?

Yeah i'm with you on this, I gotta admit I'm a fan of "The Lounge" but not that Neon place on the opposite side of the road, it's just plain AWFUL, crap interior, the food I had in their was under cooked and bland, uncomfortable seats, crap drinks list, it's just crap!

editor

10-12-2003, 13:39

I find I can get a lot more upset by seeing yet another old shop turning into yet another fucking neon-lit pink nail bar.

How many does Brixton need?

editor

10-12-2003, 13:41

Originally posted by CK1977
Yeah i'm with you on this, I gotta admit I'm a fan of "The Lounge" I've just done a little website for them. There's still a few tweaks to do (and more text to add), but you can see the beta version here: www.brixtonlounge.com

Check out the cute animated map done by Eme!

IntoStella

10-12-2003, 14:25

I misread that for a sec as Check out the cute animated map done by Ernie! :eek: Don't tell Eme! :D

I still think the Lounge's logo looks like it says DUNG. I told the guy who was doing the signwriting outside when they moved. He was not impressed. :o

editor

10-12-2003, 14:40

Originally posted by IntoStella
I still think the Lounge's logo looks like it says DUNG. I told the guy who was doing the signwriting outside when they moved. It is a mighty crap logo indeed.

And I've told the owner all about it too!

CK1977

10-12-2003, 16:41

I've just done a little website for them. There's still a few tweaks to do (and more text to add), but you can see the beta version here: www.brixtonlounge.com

Check out the cute animated map done by Eme

That's a really nice site Ed. I'll certainly be putting my money into the "The Lounge", it's really relaxed in their and the staff are really friendly and make you feel welcome.

Nice work

lang rabbie

10-12-2003, 16:56

Originally posted by editor
Check out the cute animated map done by Eme!

I'm sitting here still staring at the animation, completely unable to remember whether the little green car is making an illegal :( right turn into Atlantic Road from Brixton Hill. :)

grubby local

10-12-2003, 17:03

<whispers> er, ed, according to the info on the front page it's only open for an hour. I think you mean 12.00am.

funky map, though.
gx

Blagsta

10-12-2003, 17:07

Originally posted by CK1977
but not that Neon place on the opposite side of the road, it's just plain AWFUL, crap interior, the food I had in their was under cooked and bland, uncomfortable seats, crap drinks list, it's just crap!

Yup, Neon is shit. I went there on my birthday and my friend's chicken was raw in the middle.

Blagsta

10-12-2003, 17:09

Originally posted by editor
I've just done a little website for them. There's still a few tweaks to do (and more text to add), but you can see the beta version here: www.brixtonlounge.com

Check out the cute animated map done by Eme!

Nice! :)

Pie 1

10-12-2003, 20:56

Originally posted by lang rabbie
I'm sitting here still staring at the animation, completely unable to remember whether the little green car is making an illegal :( right turn into Atlantic Road from Brixton Hill. :)

Totally illegal right turn. :D Some serious honking abuse would insue...maybe you could add distinctive Brixton sounds like that to the map too - "Skunkweebskunkweedskunkweedtravelcard
travekcardtravelcardticketsfortonightsacadamy
as the mouse moves around"

Pie 1

10-12-2003, 21:06

Originally posted by Blagsta
Yup, Neon is shit. I went there on my birthday and my friend's chicken was raw in the middle.

Third that. Went there for my birthday this year - lousy.

Also, I think as far as Atlantic 66 goes, I've got nothing against it being there at all, the more the merrier - I'm just disapointed. They made it sound like it was going to maybe be something a little different, but it's opened looking like that. Just leaves me a bit cold.

hendo

10-12-2003, 23:23

Reckon me and Miss T will check out the food there next week, and report back.
Sorry to hear about the apparent decline of Neon, where I have enjoyed nice Pizzas in the past.

editor

11-12-2003, 00:00

Originally posted by grubby local
<whispers> er, ed, according to the info on the front page it's only open for an hour. I think you mean 12.00am. I'm not sure about that. 12am sounds like midday to me.

I'd rather say, 'midnight' but - hey! - an artist can only work with what they're given!

Orang Utan

11-12-2003, 00:13

Originally posted by editor
I'm not sure about that. 12am sounds like midday to me.

I'd rather say, 'midnight' but - hey! - an artist can only work with what they're given!

I am afraid he/she's right - 12am is midnight, 12pm is noon - :)

rennie

15-12-2003, 17:37

I passed by on saturday afternoon n the place was empty. had a glance on the menu list n im proud to announce that a chef salad can be served for a mere 7 quid. and a risotto for 11. makes me wonder what is in them! :rolleyes:

did the usual, n went to the lounge. cannot see myself going into 66 atlantic. a bit too trendy for me taste, expensive and brightly lit! still, good luck to them. :)

hatboy

15-12-2003, 18:45

Re: boring bars imaginatively named after the road or area they are in. Is there a restaurant called Mudshute?

Ol Nick

16-12-2003, 09:22

Originally posted by hatboy
Re: boring bars imaginatively named after the road or area they are in. Is there a restaurant called Mudshute?
Sure. It's not restaurant, though.

IntoStella

16-12-2003, 12:24

I must admit I'm a bit confused because when that somewhat controversial ''new restaurant'' thread started (that Ms T is SUCH a troublemaker!;) ), I thought everyone was talking about the place being built from scratch (and still unfinished) on the corner of Vining St and Atlantic Road.

I saw Atlantic 66 at the w/e* and it just looks boring and rather expensive -- dearer than the Lounge and not as nice. I think it's 4 quid for scrambled egg on toast! :eek:

*Although I live very near, for some reason I rarely go along that stretch.

rennie

16-12-2003, 17:21

Originally posted by IntoStella
I must admit I'm a bit confused because when that somewhat controversial ''new restaurant'' thread started (that Ms T is SUCH a troublemaker!;) ), I thought everyone was talking about the place being built from scratch (and still unfinished) on the corner of Vining St and Atlantic Road.

I saw Atlantic 66 at the w/e* and it just looks boring and rather expensive -- dearer than the Lounge and not as nice. I think it's 4 quid for scrambled egg on toast! :eek:

*Although I live very near, for some reason I rarely go along that stretch.

dum dum tells me that place still unfinished is going to be the new premises for the jewelery shop diverse.But he's probably got that wrong (easily confused )

Ms T

18-12-2003, 14:40

I've heard it will be a jewellry shop as well. Perfect for Brixton's hip and happening population. ;)

rennie

18-12-2003, 17:52

i got a briliant bracelet for my birthday from there! :p :D

jayeola

18-12-2003, 17:56

"Claphamited" like the word! Makes gentrification worse than "sodomited"

Bond

18-12-2003, 22:36

Still somewhat curious to check this place out properly :p

Orang Utan

19-12-2003, 13:56

Originally posted by jayeola
"Claphamited" like the word! Makes gentrification worse than "sodomited"

I prefer 'ciabattered'.

IntoStella

20-12-2003, 12:49

Originally posted by Orang Utan
I prefer 'ciabattered'. :D :D :D

hipipol

20-12-2003, 17:15

Suzee Blue Cheese posting as Hipipol:

It's a minimalist style restaurant bar. We went a couple of nights ago to check it out. I was put off going in by the overbright lighting and the fishbowl atmosphere but we'd arranged to meet peeps inside and there was no turning back.

The food apparantly was good, but looked like very small portions to me, especially the seabass. I doubt I'd go there to eat. The food took ages to come, about 45 minutes. They brought a glass of champagne each to compensate which was a nice touch, especially as me and Hipipol got one too and we weren't even eating. Maybe the food was so late arriving because there was a birthday crowd in that night.

The music was global, I liked it.

I have friends who got together a place in Lordship Lane - I know how much hard work and planning that took and the financial risk they took to get it off the ground. Best of luck to the crew behind this one - as has been pointed out, if you don't like it don't go. It's not like it's replaced anything. Though I did have a great fondness for the red, blue and yellow of the old Howes facade.

And I'm with Mike on offering thanks to above it's not another nail bar :eek:

hatboy

21-12-2003, 14:33

"I have friends who got together a place in Lordship Lane - I know how much hard work and planning that took and the financial risk they took to get it off the ground. Best of luck to the crew behind this one - as has been pointed out, if you don't like it don't go. It's not like it's replaced anything. Though I did have a great fondness for the red, blue and yellow of the old Howes facade."

I do agree with this. And I do realise it's easy to criticise. But nevertheless I find this place terrifically bland and predictable looking. It seems to be attracting people who are nicely-dressed, not too loud, not very noticeable, etc, etc. It's pretty irrelevant to many people in Brixton I feel. Too expensive and too damn dull. Sorry.

All I can say to the people runnng it is that I hope they can in time give it more character and personality (which in a way is anti-style, anti-fashion). Then again if they want the office party crowd I'm sure it'll do just fine as it is.

:)

hatboy

21-12-2003, 14:37

Reposted from comments in the politics forum:

"In a study in gentrified areas of Lambeth, Islington, Hackney, Lewisham and Wandsworth, Tim Butler found “little evidence of the middle class deploying its resources for the benefits of the wider community.” He says: “London’s middle classes share a common relationship to each other which is largely exclusive of those who are not ‘people like us’ – most strikingly perhaps in relation to their ethnicity. In a city that is massively multi-ethnic, its middle classes, despite long rhetorical flushes in favour of multi-culturalism and diversity, huddle together into essentially white settlements in the inner city. Their children have friends like their parents and most of their parents’ friends are people like themselves.”

Sadly this is true of many people.

hatboy

21-12-2003, 14:50

Also people had expectations of Atlantic 666 to be somehow special. It was promoted by the sign on the wall outside as "Brixton's Biggest Concept Dining Space" I recall. Perhaps someone would like to tell me what the "concept" is. I'm buggered if I can see it. :confused:

Gramsci

21-12-2003, 16:43

I did walk by it a last week.I believe the Chef is the guy who used to work in the Dogstar on Sundays(I saw him through the window).He has been knocking around Brixton for a long time and lives locally.I dont know him that well but I know he has wanted to try and get his own place for a while.

Atlantic Rd always did have a range of shops in it-regeneration just means that they are different.I remember a useful second-hand shop run by an old lady who had lived in Brixton all her life.You could get second hand gas fires their etc(u cant do that these days)which where handy for "self help" repairs.

Their also used to be a pie shop as well.

Atlantic Rd did have a large off licence and at times the "Frontline" did reach that for down.

The interesting characters who ran the shops have now finally retired.

CK1977

22-12-2003, 12:19

Anna Key

22-12-2003, 12:41

Originally posted by hatboy
"In a city that is massively multi-ethnic, its middle classes, despite long rhetorical flushes in favour of multi-culturalism and diversity, huddle together into essentially white settlements in the inner city. Their children have friends like their parents and most of their parents’ friends are people like themselves.”
Exactly. There's something essentially racist about gentrification where there's a large working class ethnic minority population, i.e. in Lambeth (190 languages spoken within a population of some 270,000).

Why? For precisely for the reasons given by Tim Butler. The non-white UK middle class is small compared to the white middle class. So if a multi-racial area is gentrified it drives out the non-whites in favour of whites.

In an employment situation such a practice would be illegal - it would be indirect race discrimination (which may attract uncapped damages at an employment tribunal). But it's legal - apparently - to do this in the housing field via market-led gentrification.

BTW is that Tim Butler from East London University?

lang rabbie

22-12-2003, 12:58

The article with the Tim Butler quote was written from a London Tenant Federation perspective and appeared in London Housing magazine (http://www.lhu.org.uk/dynamic/Latest_Mag.asp). The site is a pain to navigate full article here (http://www.lhu.org.uk/docs/617lh_Sustainable.pdf)

hatboy

23-12-2003, 00:15

I've read the whole of that article and I agree with all of it except the last line. I think you can have "socially-mixed" areas in any way I can think of, except when there's a big disparity in wealth and access to housing. And there are other things as well, but what I'm getting at is that I don't think people of different religions, different races, different nationalities, etc generally have much problem with eachother until things like access to housing and rich/poor being too far apart come into such sharp focus. Oh, and policing. I mean million pound houses next to council estates (even if they're not falling to bits) is rubbing it in a bit IMHO.

:)

Giles

24-12-2003, 00:26

Originally posted by Anna Key
Exactly. There's something essentially racist about gentrification where there's a large working class ethnic minority population, i.e. in Lambeth (190 languages spoken within a population of some 270,000).

Why? For precisely for the reasons given by Tim Butler. The non-white UK middle class is small compared to the white middle class. So if a multi-racial area is gentrified it drives out the non-whites in favour of whites.

In an employment situation such a practice would be illegal - it would be indirect race discrimination (which may attract uncapped damages at an employment tribunal). But it's legal - apparently - to do this in the housing field via market-led gentrification.

BTW is that Tim Butler from East London University?

The key difference between "race discrimination" in employment and the effects of gentrification on an area is that in the former case, there is a central person you can blame for causing that discrimination, whereas the gentrification of an area happens because of a thousand individual decisions that people make about where they want to buy or rent houses and flats, and work, and those decisions are not made because of racism, are they?

Giles..

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 09:21

Originally posted by Giles
The key difference between "race discrimination" in employment and the effects of gentrification on an area is that in the former case, there is a central person you can blame for causing that discrimination, whereas the gentrification of an area happens because of a thousand individual decisions that people make about where they want to buy or rent houses and flats, and work, and those decisions are not made because of racism, are they?

Giles..
Totally untrue. Gentrification occurs because local politicians permit it, e.g. signing off public housing to be flogged to property developers and yuppies. And sometimes turning up at the auction to bid for it themselves!!! (see other thread).

They can then pretend - to avoid political flack - it's all due to forces beyond their control. It's the great 'market forces' politicial trick. You permit market forces to let rip then pretend it's all beyond your control.

This applies especially in Brixton where gentrification is essentially racist - it drives out blacks in favour of whites.

And what Brixton politician wants to be (quite properly) accused of being racist in housing provision? It's a politicial kiss of death.

Luckly lots of people are watching the buggers closely and will have their bollocks if they try to play this racist trick in any major way in central Brixton.

editor

24-12-2003, 09:44

Originally posted by Anna Key
Totally untrue. Gentrification occurs because local politicians permit it, e.g. signing off public housing to be flogged to property developers and yuppies. I think that's too simplistic: the seeds of gentrification are often sewn by artists/musicians/creative types moving into a run-down area and creating the sort of vibrant 'Boho' community that yuppies want a slice of.

Private landlords and entrepreneurs are usually first in line to up the rent as the place starts to feature in the style mags and thus the process of driving out locals begins.

I can't see how you can blame that process entirely on politicians, although they no doubt play a part in the later development of a yuppified area.

Athos

24-12-2003, 09:54

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 09:54

Originally posted by editor
I think that's too simplistic: the seeds of gentrification are often sewn by artists/musicians/creative types moving into a run-down area and creating the sort of vibrant 'Boho' community that yuppies want a slice of.
OK fair enough. But there's still no need for the politicians to respond to the gentrifying pressures caused by the Bohos. When the property developers come calling they can take a political decision to tell them to fuck off.

And the politicians must not attend auctions of public housing in the hope of buying something cheap.

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 10:10

Originally posted by Athos
How does it 'drive out blacks in favour of whites'?
For the reasons given. There's only a small non-white UK middle class. So if an area's gentrified it becomes, effectively, a private reserve, a security estate, for relatively wealthy whites.

Market forces does the actual dirty work but those who permit market forces to let rip (i.e. local politicians signing off housing for sale to property developers) are responsible for the racist result.

Athos

24-12-2003, 10:15

But how would you combat it? Given that it is caused by 'market forces', do you advocate measures to keep prices artificially low? Would that not impact on those homeowners there, now? Is that right?

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 10:18

Originally posted by Athos
But how would you combat it?
By voting in non-racist local politicians.

Giles

24-12-2003, 10:19

Originally posted by Anna Key
Totally untrue. Gentrification occurs because local politicians permit it, e.g. signing off public housing to be flogged to property developers and yuppies. And sometimes turning up at the auction to bid for it themselves!!! (see other thread).

They can then pretend - to avoid political flack - it's all due to forces beyond their control. It's the great 'market forces' politicial trick. You permit market forces to let rip then pretend it's all beyond your control.

This applies especially in Brixton where gentrification is essentially racist - it drives out blacks in favour of whites.

Councils selling properties plays a part, but only a small one. Most incoming "gentrifiers" are buying traditional older houses, not ex-local council flats.

Gentrification generally begins when people realise that an inner-city area, previously regarded as undesirable, is actually good value, with lots of (relatively cheap) and nice property.

And then it snowballs from there - once you have a critical mass of richer incomers, property prices rise, and this encourages more existing owners to sell up, and also new businesses (like style bars, upmarket restaurants and so on) start up to cater for the new residents, etc etc, and so it goes on.

And in some areas (including Brixton, and also Hoxton, Shoreditch etc) gentrification is also driven by people wanting to buy in to an area perceived to be "cutting edge", "trendy" etc

It suits your point of view to be able to blame a single entity for the changes in an area, but the truth of it is not that simple.

And as for the "racist" angle, are you saying it is racist because no black people have money? If I buy a house in Brixton for a lot of money, am I being racist? Or is the person who sells it to me racist?

Giles..

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 10:22

Originally posted by Giles
And as for the "racist" angle, are you saying it is racist because no black people have money? If I buy a house in Brixton for a lot of money, am I being racist? Or is the person who sells it to me racist?
None of the above. I'm saying it's racist for politicians to permit market forces to apply when they lead to a racist outcome.

The employment analogy of indirect race descrimination is precise.

Athos

24-12-2003, 10:23

Originally posted by Anna Key
By voting in non-racist local politicians.

Do you really think the issue is as simple as that? Do you think that Brixton is becoming gentrified because local politicians are trying to drive out black people by selling properties to developers etc.? Personally, I'd be more inclined to think that they're encouraging the gentrifiation for financial reasons.

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 10:28

Originally posted by Athos
Do you think that Brixton is becoming gentrified because local politicians are trying to drive out black people by selling properties to developers etc.?
No. I don't think they're a bunch of racists. I know a few of them and like them very much. Some of them are simply not doing their job properly. They're failing to cope.
Personally, I'd be more inclined to think that they're encouraging the gentrifiation for financial reasons.
I agree.

Athos

24-12-2003, 10:31

Originally posted by Anna Key
None of the above. I'm saying it's racist for politicians to permit market forces to apply when they lead to a racist outcome.

The employment analogy of indirect race descrimination is precise.

By attempting to prevent 'gentrification', the Local Government would be discriminating against the middle class, where, as you have said, white people are over-represented. Equally, therefore, that would be an instance of 'indirect' discrimination.

I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but I think it's a bit disingenous of you to accuse the Local Government of racial discrimination (seemingly on principle) and then argue for another form of it.

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 10:36

Originally posted by Athos
By attempting to prevent 'gentrification', the Local Government would be discriminating against the middle class, where, as you have said, white people are over-represented. Equally, therefore, that would be an instance of 'indirect' discrimination.

I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but I think it's a bit disingenous of you to accuse the Local Government of racial discrimination (seemingly on principle) and then argue for another form of it.
No. I'm arguing for the state to use it's considerable powers to prevent market forces shafting poor people. In Brixton many of these poor people will be non-white.

Wealthy whites who want to live in Brixton have tons of houses to buy. The only "discrimination" against whites I'm arguing for is that they not be permitted, by politicians via property developers, to shove poor people out of their homes so they can take them over.

Fair enough?

IntoStella

24-12-2003, 10:42

Athos -- what is your point exactly? :confused:

Are you saying that Anna Key is arguing for racial discrimination? Either you are setting up a particularly nasty straw man or you haven't properly read or understood AK's posts.

If you refute the suggestion that there is racial discrimination in LBL, I suggest you take a look at the transcripts of the Alex Owolade tribunal, which found CLEAR cases of race discrimination only a few months ago.

Athos

24-12-2003, 10:46

Originally posted by Anna Key
No. I'm arguing for the state to use it's considerable powers to prevent market forces shafting poor people. In Brixton many of these poor people will be non-white.

Wealthy whites who want to live in Brixton have tons of houses to buy. The only "discrimination" against whites I'm arguing for is that they not be permitted, by politicians via property developers, to shove poor people out of their homes so they can take them over.

Fair enough?

This is really an issue of poverty and class, rather than one of race. I feel that your comments on race are a red herring, and distract us from the real issue. I don't know what your agenda is for framing this issue as one of race, but I think I have shown that, equally, one could argue that taking measures to maintain the status quo are examples of 'indirect discriminatiom'.

With regard to the real issue, I think that there should be plenty of public housing, and more schemes for 'affordable' private housing. I would halt the selling off of Local Authority housing, and offer incentives for developers to provide cheap housing.

That, however, would not be enough to prevent gentrification, in my opinion. Do you propose going further in the state using it's 'considerable powers'?

editor

24-12-2003, 10:50

Originally posted by Anna Key
But there's still no need for the politicians to respond to the gentrifying pressures caused by the Bohos. When the property developers come calling they can take a political decision to tell them to fuck off. Unfortunately, by that time, the property developers are holding all the aces over cash-strapped councils desperate to balance the books....and the councils would argue that by getting a maximum return on their properties they're serving their community better.

Of course, one of the roots of gentrification goes back further to the fucking disgraceful, despicable Tory decision to flog off council properties.

The fucking fuckers.

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 10:54

Originally posted by Athos
This is really an issue of poverty and class, rather than one of race.
I disagree. For the reasons already given. Poverty, class and race combine in Brixton. Why do people get so nervous about arguments involving race? If a policy - in this case a housing policy - has an outcome of indirect race discrimination why not say so loud and clear?
Do you propose going further in the state using it's 'considerable powers'?
Compulsory labour for the bourgeoisie! ;)

Athos

24-12-2003, 10:54

Originally posted by IntoStella
Athos -- what is your point exactly? :confused:

Are you saying that Anna Key is arguing for racial discrimination? Either you are setting up a particularly nasty straw man or you haven't properly read or understood AK's posts.

If you refute the suggestion that there is racial discrimination in LBL, I suggest you take a look at the transcripts of the Alex Owolade tribunal, which found CLEAR cases of race discrimination only a few months ago.

I am saying that the focus on race is an unjustified one. In my opinion, this is a matter of poverty and class, not race.

To do so, I highlighted how the argument of 'indirect discrimination' doesn't carry a great deal of weight, because it could equally be applied to any counter-measures to preserve the status quo.

I think I did understand AK comments, and I'm not accusing her of being a racist, any more than she is accusing the local councillors, rather I am saying that measures to keep the middle class out of Brixton are just as much examples of 'indirect discrimination' as measures to get them in. And that, in discussing it, we're diverted from the real issue.

I didn't refute the suggestion that there is racism in LBL, rather I thought that that is not the motivating factor in the process of gentrification.

IntoStella

24-12-2003, 10:58

Originally posted by Athos
This is really an issue of poverty and class, rather than one of race. I feel that your comments on race are a red herring, I can only assume that you don't live in or around Brixton or you would see that race is an absolutely central issue here, particularly when it comes to things like selling social housing stock to property developers, who will then sell it on to the rich -- and predominantly white -- at hugely inflated prices.

Refusing to acknowledge race as a crucial political issue in an area like this is synonymous with -- and facilitates -- institutional racism. It's what happened in the Owolade case, where victims of racial abuse were disciplined for complaining! The council's policy (testified by an officer under oath) was that all racism complaints were false and malicious -- especially if they were made by people of West Indian origin!

It is an incredible document and a shocking testament to what happens when race is swept under the carpet.

Athos

24-12-2003, 11:00

Originally posted by Anna Key
I disagree. For the reasons already given. Poverty, class and race combine in Brixton. Why do people get so nervous about arguments involving race? If a policy - in this case a housing policy - has an outcome of indirect race discrimination why not say so loud and clear?

Compulsory labour for the bourgeoisie! ;)

Of course poverty, race and class combine. I do find, however, that, because people can get so caught up in questions of racism, the real issue i.e. affordable housing, are missed.

Fair enought to say a policy has the result of 'indirect discrimination', but be honest about it. A policy to prevent gentrification by keeping the middle class out of Brixton would also be an example of 'indiret discrimination'. Do you accept that? Are you advocating such 'indirect discrimination'?

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 11:01

Originally posted by Athos
A policy to prevent gentrification by keeping the middle class out of Brixton would also be an example of 'indiret discrimination'. Do you accept that? Are you advocating such 'indirect discrimination'?
Nonsense. It would be direct discrimination. :p

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 11:03

Originally posted by Athos
Of course poverty, race and class combine. I do find, however, that, because people can get so caught up in questions of racism, the real issue i.e. affordable housing, are missed.
Not by me matey!

IntoStella

24-12-2003, 11:05

Originally posted by Athos
A policy to prevent gentrification by keeping the middle class out of Brixton would also be an example of 'indiret discrimination'. It's nothing to do with ''keeping out the middle class'' (read the stuff about Robson and Butler already posted). It's about keeping existing social housing AS social housing. Or do you think this is unfair and it should be sold off so as not to discriminate against those hard-done-by middle class people?

Athos

24-12-2003, 11:07

Originally posted by IntoStella
I can only assume that you don't live in or around Brixton

Noit now, but I used to.

race is an absolutely central issue here

We disagree. I think that the local community should not be driven out of Brixton, regardless of whether they are black or white. the fact that many of them happen to be black is neither here nor there.

who will then sell it on to the rich -- and predominantly white -- at hugely inflated prices.

'Those bloody 'whites' coming in here, taking our houses' ;)

Refusing to acknowledge race as a crucial political issue in an area like this is synonymous with -- and facilitates -- institutional racism.

I agree that race is an important political issue, but not in this instance.

It's what happened in the Owolade case, where victims of racial abuse were disciplined for complaining! The council's policy (testified by an officer under oath) was that all racism complaints were false and malicious -- especially if they were made by people of West Indian origin!

It is an incredible document and a shocking testament to what happens when race is swept under the carpet.

That does sound shocking and deplorable, but what does it add to this debate?

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 11:08

Oh the poor old discriminated against white London middle classes.

Well done Athos for defending them. Never was there a more worthy cause. Good for you!

IntoStella

24-12-2003, 11:12

Originally posted by Athos
'Those bloody 'whites' coming in here, taking our houses' ;) Oh that's just fatuous. Really! :rolleyes: I'm not stooping to argue on that sort of level. It's just demeaning.

Athos

24-12-2003, 11:13

Originally posted by Anna Key
Nonsense. It would be direct discrimination. :p

No, it wouldn't. Direcr discrimination would be where white people weren't allowed to move in, something I know you don't advocate. However, a policy which discouraged the middle class from moving in would be 'indirect discrimination' as white people are over represented in the middle class (just like your argument that, by facilitating their influx, the Local Governmet has shown 'indirect discrimination' against black people because they are under represented in the middle class).

What practical measures should the Local Government take to prevent gentrification, do you think?

Athos

24-12-2003, 11:14

Originally posted by IntoStella
Oh that's just fatuous. Really! :rolleyes: I'm not stooping to argue on that sort of level. It's just demeaning.

Lighten up, it was a joke, hence the ;) . I didn't mean to offend, and I'm sorry if I did.

IntoStella

24-12-2003, 11:18

Try to understand this very simple concept: we are talking about the defence of existing social housing. Do you really think that not flogging off social housing constitutes unacceptable discrimination against the middle class/wealthy? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 11:18

Originally posted by Athos
Lighten up
Yes IS. Try to be more fun and lighthearted. Pie 1 might be reading!

Athos

24-12-2003, 11:19

Originally posted by IntoStella
It's nothing to do with ''keeping out the middle class'' (read the stuff about Robson and Butler already posted). It's about keeping existing social housing AS social housing. Or do you think this is unfair and it should be sold off so as not to discriminate against those hard-done-by middle class people?

If the measures you propose are limited to keeping social housing as social housing, then you'll see from my posts above that we agree.

I don't mind discriminating agaist the middle class, and the consequent 'indirect discrimination' against whites. What I do object to is the double standard of arguing that it's a race issue and that the Local Government's facilitation of gentrification is 'indirect discrimination' and is therefore necessarily bad (because it is discriminatory), whilst people won't accept that counter measures would be discriminatory, too.

IntoStella

24-12-2003, 11:19

Originally posted by Anna Key
Yes IS. Try to be more fun and lighthearted. Pie 1 might be reading! JAWOHL MEIN HERR! >click< :D :D :D

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 11:20

Originally posted by IntoStella
Try to understand this very simple concept: we are talking about the defence of existing social housing. Do you really think that not flogging off social housing constitutes unacceptable discrimination against the middle class/wealthy? :eek: :eek: :eek:
Try to understand this very simple concept. It it totally unacceptable for the white London middle classes not to get exactly what they want. It's unnatural, against human nature and probably against the laws of physics.

Orang Utan

24-12-2003, 11:20

Anyone fancy a pint?

Athos

24-12-2003, 11:20

Originally posted by IntoStella
JAWOHL MEIN HERR! >click< :D :D :D

I don't geddit?!:confused: Who is Pie1?

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 11:22

Originally posted by Athos
whilst people won't accept that counter measures would be discriminatory, too.
Not this person. I'm all for discriminating against the wealthy. Directly and indirectly.

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 11:23

Originally posted by Orang Utan
Anyone fancy a pint?
Me! I'm off to the Beehive in a sec. Where I'm going to discriminate, both directly and indirectly, against a delicious pint of frothing brew.

Athos

24-12-2003, 11:23

Originally posted by Anna Key
Try to understand this very simple concept. It it totally unacceptable for the white London middle classes not to get exactly what they want. It's unnatural, against human nature and probably against the laws of physics.

That is a scurrilous and gross carictature of my views, as you well know.;) :)

I've just finished work, so, as OrangUtan says, I'm off for a pint!

Happy Christmas everyone.

Born in a manger = lack of affordable housing

Orang Utan

24-12-2003, 11:24

Originally posted by Anna Key
Me! I'm off to the Beehive in a sec. Where I'm going to discriminate, both directly and indirectly, against a delicious pint of frothing brew.

The Beehive discriminates against rich people. Bet you can't find any Veuve Cliquot in there.

IntoStella

24-12-2003, 11:26

<Stuck in office till 5.30> You're all bastards!! :mad: :mad:

(Drunken bastards at that.) ;)

Orang Utan

24-12-2003, 11:27

Originally posted by IntoStella
<Stuck in office till 5.30> You're all bastards!! :mad: :mad:

(Drunken bastards at that.) ;)

I'm stuck in the office til 8 but I'm still drinking

Athos

24-12-2003, 11:27

Originally posted by Orang Utan
The Beehive discriminates against rich people. Bet you can't find any Veuve Cliquot in there.

So where does that leave 'champagne socialists'?

Anna Key

24-12-2003, 11:28

Originally posted by Orang Utan
The Beehive discriminates against rich people. Bet you can't find any Veuve Cliquot in there.
Your right. It's a total disgrace. Athos should put in a formal complaint.

Athos

24-12-2003, 11:30

I'll phone one in from The Met Bar;) :D

pooka

24-12-2003, 11:55

Athos: Your right, race is not the central issue to the arguement. Anna's prime concern (on these Boards at least) is maintaining the current community on Rushcroft Road against alleged council plans to sell some of the properties there*, and protecting them from neighbouring intrusions from Coldharbour Lane. His/her commtment to defending his/her street as s/he and his/her neighbours like it, is perfectly understandable. The race issue, which is ingenous, came very late in the debate - which has covered inumerable threads over recent months.

There is a wider debate around gentrification versus regeneration, are they separable, what should the role of local authorities be and it's one that goes way beyond Rushcroft Rd.

The key driver to gentrification in London is the spriralling cost of housing. This is a consequence of growing demand (consequent on economic growth, inward migration and declining household size) and an inadaquate supply of new dwellings. There's not a lot that Lambeth can do about that. The solution is to build more houses, London wide and across the region. That will involve looking at the planning system (should we allow Green Belt policies to serve NIMBYs in the Chalfonts at the expense of the inner city?) and the propensity for developers to built land banks in anticipation of further price rise, amongst other things. More houses is what matters first, and secondarily the mix of tenures (public/private/ social, buy/part buy/rent).

Within that context, as you and Anna have both noted, a lot of gentrification has been of properties that the council has no control over. For the last two decades it's been Victorian properties often sold by long standing residents who've sold up at a hefty premium. More recently, its infill developments of derelict land or private owned blocks.

But some has been of public assets (schools and Mansion Blocks particularly). Should the council not retain all of these properties? Well, on balance yes. Not because that will stop gentrification (the effect will be marginal) but because there is a shortage of social housing and public facilities. But only if they can afford to - both refurbish them and maintain them on an ongoing basis. A galnce at the council's accounts would suggest they're not embarrassed by riches - £860m debt and a revenue defict in spite of a 23% Council Tax rise last year.

Should the Government not stump up the cash? Well, this Government has progressively increased taxes - primarilly for Health (up from £40bn to £67bn), Education and Community Safety and posted a PSBR of £37bn for next year to sustain that spending. Already the siren Tory voices ("It's all being wasted") are gaining credence amongst the electorate. They could increase still further taxes to spend on social housing (in addition that already going through the Housing Corporation and the innumerable New Deals) and gamble everything. Would they get the electoral support with 66% owner occupation nationally? It's a no brainer.

So within the constrains they face, we elect a council to make the decisions. They may decide that they simply can't afford to retain every last block and to forego every last sale. If we don't like it - we can boot them out next time. Will their decision mean the decimation of social housing in Lambeth? No, we already have very high levels by national standards - the properties at issue are a drop in the ocean. Will their sale transform the pace of gentrification? They'll make barely noticable difference - for the reasons Athos and Anna have given.

*Have we any firm evidence of those plans yet?

IntoStella

24-12-2003, 13:27

Originally posted by pooka
The race issue, which is ingenous[/b]Nice word, Pookster. But what does it mean? Ingenuous? Ingenious? I'm sure AK would be most flattered by either ;)Will their decision mean the decimation of social housing in Lambeth? No, we already have very high levels by national standardsI say! That's a bit "disingenous" of you ;). The fact that we have more social housing than, say, Cirencester, is entirely irrelevant. Housing provision should meet housing need which, in Lambeth, is absolutely dire. - the properties at issue are a drop in the ocean. If so then the Lib Dems might care to stop trying to break up this long-standing and vulnerable community.

Gramsci

29-12-2003, 17:13

Ive read most of this thread now.Ive also gone back to the original London Housing link stuck up by Lang Rabbie and Hatboy.

The policy context for Butlers research was the governments mantra that "in order to be sustainable communities must be socially mixed" and the "Governments commitment to try and encourage private sector investment in deprived and run down areas".

His evidence showed that:

1)That a "social mix" policy did not work as the middle classes did not deploy their resources for the benefit of the wider community.

2)"In a city that is massively multiethnic its middle classes huddle together together in white middle class settlements in the inner city."

Thus the Government(which lays down the guidelines for local Councils) policy on "regeneration" will not lead to a more equal society and could be argued to discriminate against the poorer sections of society and in Cities ethnic minorities.It does not help make the UK a multicultural country.

Well thats my reading of Butlers research and it backs up what Anna says.It also shows Government policy on regeneration and housing to be under its own criteria a failure.

The Governments "Third way" lays an emphasis on the "private sector"-read market forces.

If as Pooka believes their is politically not much local Councils/central Government can do about this then they should be honest about it.As is usually the case with Councils/Government they dress up this gentrification as creating mixed sustainable communities-which is crap.

hatboy

29-12-2003, 18:03

I do think pretty much any type of person can get along with any other (yeah corny I know) , but they've got to want to.

Things fall down if when people arrive in an area they don't attempt to engage with their neighbours. And if they live behind security gates, in enclaves or similar people, their physical location makes it hard to do this even if they want to and encourages paranoia on one side of the gate and resentment on the other.

The division that is in sharpest focus in Brixton (and many inner-city areas) is levels of wealth, but there's no doubt that impacts on race too IMHO.

I also think that some people who have a good amount of money develop a snottiness, if they didn't have it already, that means they look down on others and people pick up on this and it makes them angry.

hatboy

29-12-2003, 20:15

"1) That a "social mix" policy did not work as the middle classes did not deploy their resources for the benefit of the wider community".

Well generally yes, especially the really middle-class, upscale types. These people need to be aware that it is they who need to make more effort. That their arrival is not a gift in itself and that they shouldn't expect to be welcomed with open arms if they act insular and stand-offish.

It is naive if richer newcomers think the arrival of upmarket and exclusive/excluding shops and bars for their custom is genuine regeneration and that people should necessarily be pleased by their arrival.

You know, "you ungrateful proles, you should be pleased we brought a shiny new cocktail emporium to your crappy neighbourhood".

Response: "well actually mate, I quite liked that premises as a, er, bike shop/cheap clothes shop/butchers/whatever".

Having said that, there are of course decent people of all classes, just less the higher up you go.....! :eek: ;)

Ol Nick

07-01-2004, 14:10

Originally posted by hatboy
Having said that, there are of course decent people of all classes, just less the higher up you go.....! :eek: ;) Look never mind making the world a better a place. I have been personally offered TEN POUNDS off a meal at "66 Atlantic" as it seems to be called, by a young lady outside the tube station last night. To think Brixton tube used to be beset by travelcard and incense touts. What a classy step up!

But shit, I'd have to cross a couple of main roads and I've got some nice lamb chops in the fridge and I can mix myself a cocktail for less than £5 so I guess I'll give it a miss.

Anna Key

07-01-2004, 14:15

Originally posted by Ol Nick
I have been personally offered TEN POUNDS off a meal at "66 Atlantic"
So they're paying people to enter the premises? LOL!

<Rushes down Brixton Tube>

IntoStella

07-01-2004, 14:28

Originally posted by Ol Nick
But shit, I'd have to cross a couple of main roads and I've got some nice lamb chops in the fridge and I can mix myself a cocktail for less than £5 so I guess I'll give it a miss. :D :D :D

hatboy

07-01-2004, 17:15

The people look like they should be in "The Office" in there... and Neon is even worse. How much is the meal after ten pounds off then?

Art it up a bit guys if you read this. If you're giving tenners off meals already then it's not popular anyway, start promoting it as something with more character maybe, more different from Neon?

By the way this whole bland, blonde wood style is everywhere now isn't it. Some people must absolutely love it. Weirdos.

;)

Ol Nick

09-01-2004, 14:14

Originally posted by hatboy
Art it up a bit guys if you read this. If you're giving tenners off meals already then it's not popular anyway, start promoting it as something with more character maybe, more different from Neon?

By the way this whole bland, blonde wood style is everywhere now isn't it. Some people must absolutely love it. Weirdos.

;) At the risk of sounding like a yuppy (ah fuck, what's the point) some friends of mine went there and said the food was good and the place seemed to be run by some French fellows. Maybe -- it's not my part of town.

Having said that I went to Neon once. It was OK, but over-priced. However I consider that to be the London house style so I don't complain. The strange -- and not unpleasant -- thing was that they had their huge windows open to Atlantic Road so everyone picking up their Caribbean-style bread next door would walk by 10 cm away from my grlfriend's back. I've never really got "cool". I ws hoping I could get it at Neon, but I think I was wrong.

On the plus side I've just discovered that Fujiyama deliver.

Blagsta

09-01-2004, 14:18

Neon is appalling. Good place to get food poisoning from their undercooked food.

Ol Nick

09-01-2004, 14:20

Originally posted by Blagsta
Neon is appalling. Good place to get food poisoning from their undercooked food. Yeah I remember you sayiong that. I think whn we went their it weas 'cause we wanted a pizza and Pangaea and the rest were shut. It was, you know, OK but over-priced. We've never been back. The panna cotta was good.

I do like Friday afternoons.

hatboy

09-01-2004, 16:35

Nick said: "some friends of mine went there and said the food was good and the place seemed to be run by some French fellows".

I've heard the people running it are OK and I'd be the first to put my hand up and say that it's a damn sight easier to criticise a restaurant on an internet bulletin board than run one!

I still think it looks utterly bland tho and you get the feeling of very straight-laced type people eyeing you suspiciously from inside as you walk by. And from Neon, and not just paranoid me saying this either.

Ol Nick, I'm afraid you've sort of proved my point with your comment about people in Atlantic Road passing near your girlfriend's back. I dunno what you're really like, but I can't help saying, was the street a little too close for comfort there?

:cool: :rolleyes:

Ol Nick

10-01-2004, 12:49

Originally posted by hatboy
was the street a little too close for comfort there?

:cool: :rolleyes: Do you mean the street or The Street? It was great to have the street close by, it must have been summer as I remember the windows were wide open, and there was lots going on. Lots to watch.

On the other hand Neon would love to be ball-achingly cool, and having The Street so close showed it up to be the kind of British yuppie-cool resto-bar that it is. It's a very British problem, getting decent food without yuppie-cool surroundings. Good food is a class issue in Britain in a way that it isn't in the rest of Europe. That's probably why there are no restaurants selling really good food in Brixton (now that Helter Skelter's gone). Nice places to eat, yeah. But not really good food like you'd find in working class areas of Spain, France or Belgium.

hatboy

10-01-2004, 13:20

OK I get you now I think. You're right, why isn't there more cheap, good food to eat out. Afew falafel shops wouldn't go amiss. In America you get falafel like chips for a dollar fifty or something.

I get the impression that some people passing in Atlantic Rd (the street) see Neon as total wank.

IntoStella

10-01-2004, 14:06

Bugger trendy. A bunch of us went to the Asmara last night and it were bloody lovely. I'd had take away before but not eaten in.

We had a fantastic time. The surroundings (and staff) were lovely, the food was fabulous and cheap, the beer was very reasonable and [mrs magpie mode]the bogs were the most extraordinarily sparkling clean any of us had ever seen[/mrs magpie mode].

And there were bugger-all people in there, which is a terrible shame. I expect they were all in the godawful Neon or Laminate 666.

Support your local Eritrean eaterie! In fact, why don't we have u75 meal there some time? Loads of veggie and vegan choices as well as fabulous meat dishes. And if you like spice you'll be in orbit. :) :cool:

Anna Key

10-01-2004, 14:19

Originally posted by Ol Nick
It's a very British problem, getting decent food without yuppie-cool surroundings. Good food is a class issue in Britain in a way that it isn't in the rest of Europe. That's probably why there are no restaurants selling really good food in Brixton
See Stella's post. Asmara is just an ordinary restaurant for grown-ups: no post-modern trendyness, no ghastly 'hip an' kool' music, no pretending that eating good cheap food in clean surroundings served by a non-grovelling/non-trendy waiter is some sort of 'style' experience.

Just a normal, city restaurant serving excellent food to ordinary human beings. It's great. And shows that running a good local business in Brixton doesn't mean screwing the community.

Also, after hearing the owner of Neon on the radio during the Brixton Business Expo last year, when he got slated by a woman from Notting Hill for wanting to wreck Brixton in the way Notting Hill's been wrecked, I'll never set foot in the joint. It was all about getting the white yuppie £ into Brixton to stuff his cash register. Nasty stuff.

Mrs Magpie

10-01-2004, 14:24

I'd agree about the Asmara, it's brilliant....also I'd take issue on cheap places to eat out with excellent food being thin on the ground. The Asmara or La Mazorca, to name just two off the top of my head. I reckon to be able to stuff your face for a maximum of £15 (and often much less, depending on what you order) is pretty good for a night out with excellent food and service.....also on the cafe front...
www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64948

Ms T

10-01-2004, 16:34

And Hendo and I went to the Gallery just before Xmas (up Brixton Hill) and had a great meal for not many pennies at all. Asmara is now next on my list, after Stella's rave reviews. I agree with Hatboy about Atlantic 66 -- we'll probably try it at some point, but I haven't felt that inclined to go in because the interior is so bland. A real missed opportunity, as Brixton does need another decent restaurant. On a slightly different tack, I am a bit worried about the Tearoom (site of the old Lounge), which seems distinctly empty, whilst the Lounge gets ever more popular. I hate to see a business struggle...

rennie

10-01-2004, 20:43

well, dum dum n I did venture into the tea room about 2 months ago one rainy sunday morning as the lounge was full... i ordered a roasted veggie ciabatta which was decent n he ordered the 1.99 full english breakfast... n it wasn't good!
one small piece of scrambled egg with way tooo much milk
a small, thin piece of toast
a tiny almost uncooked rasher of bacon
and tin brown sorry lookin mushroom pieces on the side
NOT good but arguably what you pay for
dum dum then ordered butter n he got the full tub of margarine straight from the fridge

he won't go there again...
not trying to give bad publicity but maybe that could help explain wy the tea room is empty most of the time. too bad...

Ms T

12-01-2004, 00:27

Indeed. We went to the Tearoom for breakfast shortly after it opened as well, and I have to say I haven't been there since because it just wasn't good enough.

I walked past Atlantic 66 yesterday afternoon and it was packed. Which might have something to do with the fact that Jay Rayner mentioned it in this week's restaurant review in the Observer. I've just tried to find a link but couldn't, but he said it was evidence of the democratisation of Brixton that you could now find foie gras on the Frontline, or some other such nonsense.

TopCat

12-01-2004, 09:56

I was a bit gobsmacked on friday night, seeing for the first time in years just how many eateries and bars had been opened in Atlantic and Railton Road.

:eek:

It was nice to see you Hatboy.:)

hatboy

12-01-2004, 10:33

"the democratisation of Brixton that you could now find foie gras on the Frontline, or some other such nonsense."

Democratic? No, elitist. I know that wasn't a quote but someone who thought they couldn't visit Atlantic Road until a posh restaurant opened, surely is a idiot or fearful of Brixton until reassured by the arrival of other people the same as them*. Yes, an idiot.

*See that Tim Butler article on gentrification further up the thread.

tarannau

12-01-2004, 11:17

To be fair to Jay Rayner, he's pretty good as far as restaurant reviewers go. He's good at sticking up for neigbourhood restaurants and value for money, not slavishly reporting from central London's coolest (and most poncey) gastronomic openings. And he seems to hold a flame for South London - he's done some excellent (and imo accurate) reviews of The Gallery, Neon and other local landmarks.

It could have been a lot worse. It could have been that arrogant and eminently-twattable toff AA Gill. Or Michael Winner for example...

I've got mixed feelings about Atlantic 66. For all their pre-opening talk of 'luxurious surrounds' it looks like they skipped corners and skimped on the design budget ... like they popped down to Ikea at the last minute and bought a few extra 'Knoba' tables on the cheap. Can't really blame 'em though - restaurants are a risky business, and they've probably been advised that this neutral (and bland) scheme is the most affordable and justifiable route.

Short of having cash to burn (which, judging from that 'bollocks' painting, they haven't) it's difficult to criticize someone for not innovating or being more design led. Maybe the decor will improve if they make a success of the place.

To me the menu seems a little overambitious for the area. It's a plus that it's short and should change regularly. On the other hand, it looked like a ambitiously random hotch-potch of cuisines when I last looked ... and I didn't immediately see anything that I would actually want to eat. It's telling that it's looked most busy for breakfast and Sunday roasts.

I'll pop out and try it soon though - it's at the end of the road after all. And I like the fact that they opened with a mail drop and discount offer for the the local residents...

:)

hatboy

12-01-2004, 11:23

"I'll pop out and try it soon though - it's at the end of the road after all. And I like the fact that they opened with a mail drop and discount offer for the the local residents..."

Did anyone on the Moorlands Estate get that then? It didn't even get delivered further up Railton. :(

tarannau

12-01-2004, 11:29

By the way, I feel I should stick up for Neon a little.

I wanted to hate this brash, red place at the end of my road - it looked so damn different, a bit too yah-yah for the surroundings. In retrospect, compared to the Ikea-bland-o-rama of Atlantic 66, at least Neon looks a little individual.

But then - after being nagged by the local Italian crew and our neigbours - we tried a meal at Neon and were impressed. Excellent quality Italian food, authentic rustic stuff from a good Italian chef ...and keenly priced (£10 2 course special meal). I had to swallow my pride and admit that they were doing a good job. I kind of like the idea of the chef cutting loose every so often, with Italian feasts and suckling pigs on the menu for special occasions.

I've been to Neon a couple of times since and enjoyed the food, even if the place is a little soulless.

That said, I haven't been recently and standards may have slipped, as in Blagsta's case. But I'm reluctant to write the place off in food terms - as much as I don't like how Neon fits in the area. ...

Ol Nick

12-01-2004, 11:35

Originally posted by hatboy
"the democratisation of Brixton that you could now find foie gras on the Frontline, or some other such nonsense."

Democratic? No, elitist. I know that wasn't a quote but someone who thought they couldn't visit Atlantic Road until a posh restaurant opened, surely is a idiot or fearful of Brixton until reassured by the arrival of other people the same as them*. Yes, an idiot.

*See that Tim Butler article on gentrification further up the thread. Maybe what he was saying was, "why don't people in Brixton deserve exceptional food"? Not every day at those prices, but maybe as a special night out. Why shouldn't they have good foie gras or cassoulet or choucroute or whatever good things the menu has on it without having to travel miles and pay West End prices.

BTW, they have a website http://www.atlantic66.com/ natch, although it looks to me as if the editor could maybe get himself a commission to (re)design it. And hatboy's right: someone should sort out the interior design. From those photos it looks like a Clapham estate agents'.

hatboy

12-01-2004, 11:41

"cassoulet or choucroute". Firstly alot of people won't even know what that is. I don't for a start. Secondly, it's not democratic since it will not be affordable to a massive proportion of local residents. But hey, let's not argue about something that may not actually have been said. Anyone got the exact quote?

Ol Nick

12-01-2004, 11:43

Originally posted by hatboy
"cassoulet or choucroute". Firstly alot of people won't even know what that is. I don't for a start. Secondly, it's not democratic since it will not be affordable to a massive proportion of local residents. But hey, let's not argue about something that may not actually have been said. Anyone got the exact quote? No, it's not online and life's to short to read the Observer.

And surely you're not saying you'd reject a steaming plate of cassoulet or choucroute (assuming it is a French restaurant) just because you'd never heard of it before.

hatboy

12-01-2004, 11:49

No, I'll eat anything. In fact I'd go if they give me a money off voucher (only received in Saltoun Rd apparently). If the place is run by friendly people with an inclusive attitude and a bit of character that would help alot too IMO. :)

Ol Nick

12-01-2004, 11:59

Originally posted by hatboy
No, I'll eat anything. In fact I'd go if they give me a money off voucher (only received in Saltoun Rd apparently). If the place is run by friendly people with an inclusive attitude and a bit of character that would help a lot too IMO. :) Quite right. Both the elitist and democratic arguments contain a germ of truth. It's clearly a pricier restaurant than any other in the area -- therefore it's elitist; it's tending to gentrify the area. At the same time it's not outrageously expensive compared with, say the correct pair of trainers or a big ticket at the Academy, so it democratises access to good food for those who want it (recognise them by their poor quality trainers). I think you're right: it's their attitude that's going to determine whether or not they turn out to be a Good Thing.

And a bonus is that it might help to raise house prices in the area...

hatboy

12-01-2004, 12:10

"And a bonus is that it might help to raise house prices in the area..."

You are joking yes? Remember to use these please. :rolleyes: :)

Ol Nick

12-01-2004, 12:22

Originally posted by hatboy
"And a bonus is that it might help to raise house prices in the area..."

You are joking yes? Remember to use these please. :rolleyes: :) But surely the joke is in the seed of doubt that the statement sows.:cool:

IntoStella

12-01-2004, 12:23

Originally posted by tarannau
To be fair to Jay Rayner, he's pretty good as far as restaurant reviewers go.... It could have been a lot worse. I strongly disagree.
This is what he actually wrote:

It’s a moment of rare significance: a restaurant has opened in Brixton, south London, serving a foie gras dish.

Do not bleat on at me about cruelty to animals. My parents kept geese when I was a kid, and they terrorised me. Eating their engorged livers is an act of revenge as far as I’m concerned.

Far more interesting to me is that the new place, Atlantic 66, should occupy a site on Atlantic Road, the street which played host to the famous Brixton riot. It is a mark of the democratisation of food in Britain that they believe central Brixton to be ready for seared foie gras with leeks and ginger on toasted brioche. Pretentious, patronising, insulting, elitist, animal-cruelty-advocating, disgusting SHITE. The man is evidently a cunt. It's an insult to the denizens of Brixton -- and so is Laminate Animal Torturing 666.

Here is some information about foie gras production: _
Foie Gras: Gourmet Atrocity

Foie gras-French for "fat liver"-is the term used by "gourmets" for livers of ducks or geese enlarged to many times their normal size by cruel force-feeding. Despite industry attempts to label the process "hand feeding" or to invent other kind-sounding terms, force-feeding is the only foie gras production method. At a typical foie gras company, workers grab a young adult male bird, stretch his neck upward, force open his bill, shove a hard pipe all the way down his throat to his stomach, and pump in an enormous amount of mashed-up corn mixed with oil, water, and salt. Sometimes force-feeding causes birds' stomachs to burst.

This is done three times a day for about four weeks. At that point, workers kill the birds and remove their grotesquely enlarged livers to sell to "gourmet" restaurants and other vendors, who then sell them in various forms considered "delicacies" by customers who fancy themselves sophisticated. The animals' livers grow partly because the birds are forced to ingest such an enormous amount of food and partly because corn, their only source of nutrition in weeks of force-feeding, lacks choline, an amino acid that aids liver function. And from here (http://www.openrescue.org/rescues/200309/2003_09.html)Investigators uncovered the aftermath of this forced-feeding at both farms. GourmetCruelty.com documented dying birds covered in their own vomit. The corpses of birds who had suffocated and choked to death from forced-feeding were found in the cages and pens. Numerous garbage cans filled with dead birds, some of whom appeared to have exploded from the forced-feeding process, were also uncovered.

Along with the cans of corpses and the dead birds who were found in the pens and cages, investigators found decaying corpses on the floor, in piles of excrement, and under pens. The stench of death permeated the sheds. The discarded victims of foie gras production were everywhere, laying testament to the cruelty of the industry.
So this is what the ''discerning businessman'' of Brixton wants, is it? It makes me vomit.

Orang Utan

12-01-2004, 12:26

If you'd have tasted foie gras you wouldn't give a shit about a bunch of geese - it is lovely!
Nothing wrong with Rayner joking about it either.

IntoStella

12-01-2004, 12:28

Originally posted by Orang Utan
If you'd have tasted foie gras you wouldn't give a shit about a bunch of geese - it is lovely!
Nothing wrong with Rayner joking about it either. Exactly the response I would expect from you. :rolleyes:

Orang Utan

12-01-2004, 12:31

Originally posted by IntoStella
Exactly the response I would expect from you. :rolleyes:

http://www.affa.gov.au/ministers/macdonald/images/gallery/fishing.jpg

Gotcha!

tarannau

12-01-2004, 12:41

OK, so I clearly haven't read that particular review of Rayner's yet.
:o

Generally though, I'll stick by my guns and give qualified praise to his past work. Anyone who sticks up for hearty portions, robust 'unfussy' menus and good neigbourhood restaurants is generally ok in my book. His review of the Gallery, for example, hit the spot perfectly - no pretentiousness, just honest praise for a place he obviously admired.

Foie Gras isn't something I've ever seen him concerned with before. He's no Michael Winner eating unashamedly elitist food week after week, nor some kind of offal-devotee who waxes lyrical about the delights of raw pigs brawn.

And I kind of agree with him - I wouldn't expect to see Foie Gras on the menu of of a Brixton restaurant either. Remember what I was saying about the menu seeming a little over-ambitious and unfocused. I read his comment about the democratisation of food in Brixton as a little tongue in cheek as a result.

Anyway , that's enough of me sticking up for a fat restaurant critic. Not as though they're a breed who are generally concerned with animal cruelty and elitism is it? I just think - flippant comment sabout geese aside - you could choose some far more objectionable food critics to pick upon.

And shouldn't you save some of that anger for Atlantic 66, which served the distasteful goose-gunk in the first place...

Ol Nick

12-01-2004, 12:47

Originally posted by tarannau
And shouldn't you save some of that anger for Atlantic 66, which served the distasteful goose-gunk in the first place... Piffle. Making foie gras involves less cruelty than making battery hen eggs and none of you are having a go at the Phoenix for not selling free range.

Foie gras is an easier target because it's French and it's expensive but it's far from being the worst farming practice out there. Think of all the poor wild fish being killed by fertiliser run-off from fields that are producing plalnts for those wicked vegetarians to eat.

Anna Key

12-01-2004, 12:52

Originally posted by Ol Nick
Foie gras is an easier target because it's French
Goose Tormenting Surrender Monkeys. :D

I doubt it will stay on the menu for long.

miss minnie

12-01-2004, 12:52

mmmm, cassoulet - bean and sausage stew, a peasant dish from the south of france, and mmmm - choucroute = saurkraut, boiled potatoes and boiled meat. another european peasant dish. there is no reason that either dish should be expensive, as they are comprised of very cheap ingredients. i just love the way these mundane things have become 'elitist'. they were the dishes i ate every day as a child (we never got fois gras). however, it is proper to label them with their authentic names on a menu as it denotes the origin, perhaps with an english sub-title.

cheap 'working-class cafes' in brixton? there are the portuguese places down stockwell road, the sintra and o cantinho (which i love). i think there's one opposite the dogstar too. fujiyama does japanese working-class food - ramen and noodles. then there's the bushman's cafe (takeaway only), under the steps of the brixton rec, serving roti, dumplings and fried chicken, depending on who's cooking it can be great (last time i was there it was too greasy). why is there not a good, cheap jamaican restaurant in brixton? and where is asmara, btw?

anyway, from what everyone has said, atlantic66 sounds awful, maybe it will find it's feet before it goes under. the blond wood will eventually get scuffed up and perhaps look a bit better - hopefully people will start etching graffiti into it. really don't see the need to serve fois gras when there are so many wonderful, cheap, international dishes they could offer instead. i've often thought that using incredibly expensive ingredients can be the mark of an indifferent cook. real artistry comes from turning ordinary ingredients into something special. did anyone see that show about food last week with whatisname hemmingway (red or dead)? he waxed lyrical about liddle (lidel, lidle?) and got a top-notch chef to prepare a bag of their groceries into a gourmet meal for a bunch of foody elitists. their faces when he brought the bags and tins out! precious.

i'd love to start a cafe, but then my menu might sound 'elitist'. have i ever mentioned that i used to often cook at the old squatter's cafe in bonnington square in the '80's? no? well lets talk about me....:D

we used to collect free food from nine elms market using a stolen sainsbury's trolley, then cook up three courses for a pound. everyone served themselves, brought their own drinks and washed their own plates. after a while we got reviewed in some magazine (time out?) and trendy types from all over started to come. it was a laff seeing them uncork their chablis whilst seated at a wobbly, scratched table set up next to the outdoor bog. they loved the food and i guess they found it amusing to be 'dining on the wild side'. ;) i used to go home with £12 for my day's labour (sometimes there was a generous tip from the henrys and henriettas), but it was great fun and very satisfying. once made a pineapple upside down cake that was 2'x3' in size and we had to clear a table of diners so that we could get it out of the tin. it took four of us and everyone in the caff got up to watch and then applauded! the last time i was at the bonnington caff was about 5 years ago, prices had gone up to £3.50 for one course, the decor was exactly the same and the hoorays were not evident. don't know if it's still going.

aaah, welll. as you were. :p

IntoStella

12-01-2004, 13:21

Originally posted by tarannau
And shouldn't you save some of that anger for Atlantic 66, which served the distasteful goose-gunk in the first place... It's a great shame 121 is no longer just up the road. If it had been, the animal-torture-promoters might well have experienced some impromptu exterior redecoration. But then the demise of 121 and the rise of Animaltorture 666 and its ilk are intimately causally linked. :(

hatboy

12-01-2004, 13:22

Originally posted by Orang Utan
If you'd have tasted foie gras you wouldn't give a shit about a bunch of geese - it is lovely!
Nothing wrong with Rayner joking about it either.

Dickhead. I worry more about people than animals. But inflicting deliberate cruelty on any creature that feels pain is basically wrong.

Ever seen the film "Society" or "Eat the Rich" by the way? :p

IntoStella

12-01-2004, 13:25

Originally posted by hatboy
Ever seen the film "Society" or "Eat the Rich" by the way? :p Oh that's a brilliant film! :D I haven't seen it for years. I wish my video recorder worked. :(

hatboy

12-01-2004, 13:27

"why is there not a good, cheap jamaican restaurant in brixton?"

There is. It's Bamboula in Acre Lane. :) And if you want to eat well and support something that's not all about reading the Evening Standard and wanting to be fashionable by following others., see my comments on the La Cuchara....YUM! thread here:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64948

Orang Utan

12-01-2004, 13:27

Originally posted by hatboy
Dickhead. I worry more about people than animals. But inflicting deliberate cruelty on any creature that feels pain is basically wrong.

Ever seen the film "Society" or "Eat the Rich" by the way? :p

I was on a wind up - I have tasted foie gras before and it does taste great but I wouldn't eat it again.

Love those films.

hatboy

12-01-2004, 13:29

Please use emoticons. Remember, we can't see eachother or hear tone and we don't all know eachother. Thankyou. :)

miss minnie

12-01-2004, 13:49

Originally posted by hatboy
"why is there not a good, cheap jamaican restaurant in brixton?"

There is. It's Bamboula in Acre Lane. :) And if you want to eat well and support something that's not all about reading the Evening Standard and wanting to be fashionable by following others., see my comments on the La Cuchara....YUM! thread here:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64948

excellent, i've been past bamboula many times but haven't met a soul who's been in there. must try it.

used to go to that caff with the cowhide seats in the granville arcade but it's closed down now, so deffo try cuchara, thanks hb. :)

btw, this question was buried in that overly-long spiel of mine - just where is asmara?

Orang Utan

12-01-2004, 13:51

Originally posted by miss minnie
tbtw, this question was buried in that overly-long spiel of mine - just where is asmara?

It's on Coldharbour Lane, almost opposite the Dogstar

miss minnie

12-01-2004, 14:02

ta :)

Pie 1

12-01-2004, 14:05

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IntoStella

[b]
Pretentious, patronising, insulting, elitist, animal-cruelty-advocating, disgusting SHITE. The man is evidently a cunt. It's an insult to the denizens of Brixton [Q]

Jay Rayner lives on Shakespeare Rd, is a very pleasent man and has been a 'denizen of Brixton'
for about the past 10 years, often sticking up for us and correcting peoples mis-conceptions.

You, an unfounded personal attack... on someone you have no idea about... with your reputation....

:rolleyes:

Orang Utan

12-01-2004, 14:06

Originally posted by hatboy
Please use emoticons. Remember, we can't see eachother or hear tone and we don't all know eachother. Thankyou. :)

Yes sir. Sorry sir.:) :D ;) :rolleyes:

hatboy

12-01-2004, 14:07

"excellent, I've been past bamboula many times but haven't met a soul who's been in there. must try it."

I can't afford to eat out really, but I didn't pay cos of something I was involved in. The food was really delicious, quite different from dishes with the same names at cheap takeaways and the staff very friendly and welcoming. :)

Ol Nick

12-01-2004, 14:08

His views on Neon, http://travel.guardian.co.uk/restaurants/story/0,13739,1010524,00.html.

"the most authentic Italian restaurant in south London"
"something very special indeed going on"
"Neon happens to be only a seven-minute walk away from my house"
"I have tried the pizzas on previous visits and they too are marvellous"

However, his view on Brixton seems very much to be that it will be wholly inhabited by trendy 20somethings within a couple of years.

hatboy

12-01-2004, 14:17

"However, his view on Brixton seems very much to be that it will be wholly inhabited by trendy 20somethings within a couple of years".

The world he moves in may be. There will be islands of poor, ignored by "trendy 20somethings", as there are now.

I notice from the review that a meal for two at Neon costs exactly the same as one week's dole money btw.

IntoStella

12-01-2004, 14:23

Originally posted by Pie 1
[QUOTE]Originally posted by IntoStella

[b]
Pretentious, patronising, insulting, elitist, animal-cruelty-advocating, disgusting SHITE. The man is evidently a cunt. It's an insult to the denizens of Brixton [Q]

Jay Rayner lives on Shakespeare Rd, is a very pleasent man and has been a 'denizen of Brixton'
for about the past 10 years, often sticking up for us and correcting peoples mis-conceptions.

You, an unfounded personal attack... on someone you have no idea about... with your reputation....

:rolleyes: Kindly explain this typically incoherent remark.

I'm not in the least bit surprised that Jay Rayner is a crony of yours. I can easily imagine you stuffing your faces with foie gras at each other's dinner parties.

Puke inducing.

Oh, and as a resident of Shakespeare Road, I think you'll find Rayner is a denizen of Herne Hill.

Even if he lived in the Barrier Block (not very ''marvellous'', eh what?), his sneering remarks would still be an insult to a large part of the local population.

Ol Nick

12-01-2004, 14:32

Originally posted by IntoStella
Puke inducing. Is it true that you have a reputation like Pie 1 says?

IntoStella

12-01-2004, 14:33

Originally posted by Ol Nick
Is it true that you have a reputation like Pie 1 says? For gawd's sake don't tell Anna Key!! ;) ;) :eek:

IntoStella

12-01-2004, 14:54

I see user 'jayrayner' is in the house.

tarannau

12-01-2004, 14:55

Hey, I don't even know this Rayner chap, but I feel obliged to defend him. Like Graniad colleague Nigel Slater, he always seems a bit more down to earth and into simple, hearty food than other culinary columnists. I can't help feeling that some of this outrage may better directed towards others, like the proprietor of Atlantic 'we serve Foie Gras' 66.

One reason why I like Jay Rayner is that his reviews don't tend to be about cutting-edge eateries, nor exclusively about expensive and hip hangouts. The Gallery and the other Potuguese places he's covered certainly don't qualify as expensive. A treat maybe, but you'd be hard pressed to cook so much good food so cheaply yourself.

Even the Neon price Hatboy highlighted is a perhaps a little misleading. It's certainly possible to eat there a lot cheaper - it's only a little more expensive than Pangaea for pizzas, pints are reasonable, and special offers can be quite impressive. In terms of food quality and raw ingredients, I'm guessing that Neon's GP mark-up is comparatively small.

And as for Jay Rayner being primarily interested in 'trendy 20somethings' - well, let's just say I've seen his picture and he clearly enjoys his food. 20-stone somethings maybe....
;)

I'm not going to get snotty about the man. There are more deserving cases.

jayrayner

12-01-2004, 15:00

IntoStella's right, of course. My house is only in brixton if I'm trying to sound cool; if i'm trying to sell it, it is indeed in herne hill. As for the rest of the stuff she said about me, it's what gets me to the keyboard each morning. Just the thought of the intostellas of this world grinding their teeth over sentences like that fills me with a deep aching pleasure. After all, why should Michael Winner get all the abuse? I deserve some too, surely?

A couple of things. Coldharbour lane and the top of Atlantic Rd are pretty well served by cheap or cheapish eateries. My point was that Atlantic66 fills a gap that remained in the market. As somebody said, why should we have to go oop west for something with a little more ambition? Believe it or not there are people who have lived in brixton for 40 years who would prefer to spend their expendable income on food rather than football tickets or a night at the academy. I don't see anything wrong in a restaurant serving them. no idea whether it's any good though. Haven't eaten there.

As to Neon being 'the most authentic Italian in south London', I never wrote those words. It appeared in the standfirst written by the numbnuts sub-editor and has been attributed to me ever since. Then Neon's owner put it on a tube poster. Gosh I was cross.