Josephine Avenue - muggings [Archive]

Minnie_the_Minx

10-11-2003, 13:46

Not sure about now, but years ago it was one of the dodgiest streets on Brixton Hill due mainly to it's large gardens that the muggers hid in and probably pretty bad lighting.

I make a point of using Brixton Water Lane if I'm going from Brixton Hill towards Effra Road (only late at night though):)

I can't even start to count the number of people who I know have been mugged down there, but like I say, that was years ago.

Helix Road (running off it) used to be pretty dodgy as well.

Anyway, I wouldn't let it put me off moving there as it's lovely otherwise;)

Donna Ferentes

10-11-2003, 15:51

You could always ask the Josephine Avenue Group (http://www.josephineavenue.f9.co.uk/). They probably keep count.

hatboy

10-11-2003, 19:09

"but years ago"

I'd say that area went thru a bad patch for street crime about a year and a half ago (perhaps two). The combination of rich pickings (big houses, alot of wealthy residents), poor street lighting and lots of shrubbery hiding places made it a mugging hotspot for awhile. I heard people mention this both on here and in various places round Brixton.

However, I've not heard much about Josphine Ave recently so I have a feeling that muggings are low there now.

I also feel that muggings in general are low at the moment in Brixton. Do others think so?

:)

Calva dosser

10-11-2003, 19:16

I went there in July. And very strange things happened to me. I still owe Anna Key an apology for my outrageous behaviour in The Beehive and The Albert, ocassioned by making the aquaintance of one of it's more louche inhabitants.

Things can quickly fall apart in Josephine Avenue. Be careful out there kids.

hatboy

10-11-2003, 19:25

Was it Steve's house?

Calva dosser

10-11-2003, 19:27

Becky's-14 I think?

Definitely not 14. No way;)

DrRingDing

10-11-2003, 19:47

Have you been a victim of street crime in Josephine Avenue? yes =23% no =77%

I don't like those figures

Me and the Mrs had a look at a really nice flat down Josephene Avenue but was a little put off by an incident we had of being two minutes down there (it really was fuck all mind but still made you think)

link (http://www.josephineavenue.f9.co.uk/)

tommers

10-11-2003, 21:53

I live on Leander Road, and walk up Josephine Ave to get home most nights. I have not witnessed or experienced any street crime in six months of being here but my girlfriend is always quite wary of walking down there on her own at night and makes me come and pick her up at the hobgoblin. (oh, the pain.)

it is quite dark and there are plenty of hiding places ( but, touch wood, nothing has actually happened yet.

Donna Ferentes

11-11-2003, 08:01

I've lived on Appach Road for nearly a year and a half and I've not seen or heard a dicky bird.

Minnie_the_Minx

11-11-2003, 09:34

Justin - like I said, years ago. I've lived on Brixton Hill since February 1985. There was a time when I was drinking in the White Horse (in the days when it was a pub, not a yuppy bar:( ) where you heard or knew of someone getting mugged almost every week.

Would agree with you though that the muggings seem to have dropped off a bit. I know the kids from the estate behind the Windmill were responsible for quite a few over the last couple of years. Dunno what they're doing now - probably setting off fireworks:rolleyes:

IntoStella

11-11-2003, 10:09

Originally posted by Minnie_the_Minx
There was a time when I was drinking in the White Horse (in the days when it was a pub, not a yuppy bar:( ) where you heard or knew of someone getting mugged almost every week. Don't want to wander off topic, but there was a monster wave of street crime around 2000 that seemed to affect the whole area -- Brixton, Camberwell, Tulse Hill, West Norwood etc. I don't know what the fuck was going on but it was just completely out of control. The police didn't seem to be able to do a thing about it. At the time, people seemed to be getting mugged all the damn time and there were some really nasty incidents with victims being stabbed. A woman was stabbed in the face round the corner from my house in January 2000. It was a war zone. Then it calmed down again. I don't know why.

Minnie_the_Minx

11-11-2003, 10:19

Funnily enough, I think it was around then that some guy tried to mug me in Elm Park.

Luckily since 1985 I've only had 3 "near" muggings and 3 burglaries in Elm Park

Dubversion

11-11-2003, 10:23

lived in elm park for about 6 years in the 90s, and always found it pretty sound, but i did hear it was worse in the 80s

pooka

11-11-2003, 10:33

Originally posted by hatboy

I also feel that muggings in general are low at the moment in Brixton. Do others think so?:)

Yes, I think there is a sense on the streets that mugging, and near mugging (aggresive, persistent begging) is much lower. The figures back that up too. The peak was in October 2001, when reported Street Crime (personal robbery and snatches) was up to 900/month. It's now running at about 400/month - there's a graph here (http://www.met.police.uk/lambeth/newsletters/aug03.htm).

Then it calmed down again. I don't know why. Well, everybody and there granny screaming about it, pressure from on high (we're told that blips in Lambeth street crime get monitored in Downing Street), a lot of work by the police and local authority, and an increase in police numbers in Lambeth(from 800 to just under 1,000). It may well be that increased security around mobile phones has played some part.

Minnie_the_Minx

11-11-2003, 10:34

Dub - the last time I was nearly mugged the guy appeared out of nowhere. I was crossing lights at Brixton Hill late at night and there was absolutely NOBODY behind me. Suddenly this guy appeared out of nowhere. I reckon he must have been hiding in the garden of the big house on Brixton Hill (you know the first one in Elm Park with side gate and huge long garden?)

Dubversion

11-11-2003, 10:40

jesus :(

yeh, know the house and i suppose that would be a good (if you know what i mean) way of staying out of sight..

did you run or twat him or what?

i lived in a garden flat (with big windows) in elm park and never got burgled, even though all our neighbours did, which was both fortunate and odd.

mebbe it was because our garden looked so fucking shabby they figured we had nothing worth stealing? :confused:

hp-ux_admin

11-11-2003, 10:47

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Minnie_the_Minx

11-11-2003, 10:47

erm, I whacked him with a stainless steel kettle I was carrying at the time and ran for my life!

I'm ground floor flat. Once I was burgled by burglar just smashing front window and climbing in. That was fun, trying to sort out with insurance and housing association who should pay for the window:) :rolleyes:

IntoStella

11-11-2003, 11:29

Originally posted by pooka
Well, everybody and there granny screaming about it I was certainly screaming about it. After I'd been mugged twice in four weeks and a neighbour was injured in a mugging outside my house and had to be taken off in an ambulance I went fucking ballistic.

Anyway, what I want to know is how did Lambeth get into such an appalling state of affairs (the 2000-2001 crimewave) in the first place?

As you say, it was proven that with sufficient pressure, inter-agency working and resources, these problems can be kept under at least a certain level of control (though sadly not enough, of course) and everyone I have spoken about it in the past few years certainly noticed that the situation had improved. Mind you, for a situation to improve from utterly appalling isn't saying much as far as the public are concerned.

Minnie -- only a fool would mess with you, girl! :D :cool:

DrRingDing

11-11-2003, 11:40

I'm really glad after reading this thread that we didn't take that flat down Josephene Avenue. In fact it's not the only thread that has put me off moving to Brixton totally. We were moving agan in March and were seriously considering moving there.

Can anybody give me words of encouragement or tell me that I'm right to be scared? :(

edit for terrible spelling

Minnie_the_Minx

11-11-2003, 11:41

Intostella - yes but the police reasoning for the crime spree in 2001 was police resources tied up post-September 11th. That doesn't explain the rest of the year prior to September 11th or the previous year does it. So what's their excuse there I wonder:mad:

Going back to the mugging, previous time many years ago, the guy didn't want to mug me. He had me on my back on the ground. I screamed and dogs opposite started barking and scared the prick off.

er, I do seem to have a big mouth in a small body:p ;) :)

Brixton Hatter

11-11-2003, 12:07

I've got various mates in JA, Appach Road etc and I haven;t heard of anything dodgy going on recently.
DoUsAfavour wrote I'm really glad after reading this thread that we didn't take that flat down Josephene Avenue. In fact it's not the only thread that has put me off moving to Brixton totally. We were moving agan in March and were seriously considering moving there. It's a shame you feel that way DoUsAfavour. Brixton obviously isn't perfect but it's a great place to live in many ways. We should not live in fear. This is our home and we should be able to walk the streets without shitting ourselves all the time. But I think the same goes here as for anywhere else in London (or any other city for that matter): be sensible, take a bus/cab where necessary, walk with mates, take the well-lit main road home, be aware of what's going on around you etc. This'll normally stand you in good stead.

pooka

11-11-2003, 12:12

Anyway, what I want to know is how did Lambeth get into such an appalling state of affairs (the 2000-2001 crimewave) in the first place?

Well, you pays your money......... There was a rise in street crime across London generally, but faster in Lambeth. Some in the police blamed that on a drop in Stop and Search post-Mcphereson - the evidence is hardly conclusive. Some people blamed the cannabis trial, although street crime was rising before that and indeed the trial was arguably a response to that. Some blamed under-resourcing of the local police. And others blamed poor co-ordination between the police and the local authority, a deficiency that we're now told Paddick was put in to reverse (Lambeth was in the Home Secretary's "special measures" category for failing to produce a Community Safety Strategy).

So it's probably down to a whole mix of things. But as you say, most people seem to have registered an improvement.

(I think the post-Sept 11th thing was offered for the particular peak in October, rather than the overall trend)

Donna Ferentes

11-11-2003, 12:13

Originally posted by Brixton Hatter
It's a shame you feel that way DoUsAfavour. Brixton obviously isn't perfect but it's a great place to live in many ways. We should not live in fear. This is our home and we should be able to walk the streets without shitting ourselves all the time. But I think the same goes here as for anywhere else in London (or any other city for that matter): be sensible, take a bus/cab where necessary, walk with mates, take the well-lit main road home, be aware of what's going on around you etc. This'll normally stand you in good stead. Quite. One thing I always say to other people about Brixton is that I don't feel afraid at all when walking around. Maybe this is just a lack of awareness on my part, and clearly quite a few people do get attacked, but to be honest I still feel safer walking along, say, Effra Road than I would walking around soemwhere like Liverpool Street at night. The fact that there's always people around makes it feel far safer (even if it's not, I suppose) than the empty streets which are so typical elsewhere.Originally posted by pooka
Some people blamed the cannabis trial, although street crime was rising before that and indeed the trial was arguably a response to that. Yes, wasn't the cannabis trial 2002?

pooka

11-11-2003, 12:26

Can anybody give me words of encouragement or tell me that I'm right to be scared?

Well, it's worth remembering that if 400 people get mugged in Lambeth in any one month, then there's 265,769 people who didn't. Pretty low odds - and one's you can improve by where you go, when, whether you wave a mobile about and so on. As Justin says, most of Brixton is busy and so you're safer than on deserted streets.

It's also worth remembering that these things are relative. Where might you move to instead? Pretty much any inner London borough has these sort of problems. And some outer boroughs have other ones - I'd feel far less likely to get caught up in a drunken brawl in the centre of Brixton on a Saturday night than say Croydon, for example.

pooka

11-11-2003, 12:27

The canabbis trial ran from July 2001 for a year.

DrRingDing

11-11-2003, 12:32

Originally posted by pooka
I'd feel far less likely to get caught up in a drunken brawl in the centre of Brixton on a Saturday night than say Croydon, for example.

Fair point :)

Donna Ferentes

11-11-2003, 12:33

Originally posted by pooka
I'd feel far less likely to get caught up in a drunken brawl in the centre of Brixton on a Saturday night than say Croydon, for example. Quite. Compared to the Wetherspoon's in Kingston - three hundred white-shirted lads all up for it - Brixton's a breeze.

nix

11-11-2003, 12:39

Yup, I agree. I lived in Brixton from 1998-2002 and always felt much safer on my own at night there than I did in Bexley (where I grew up), the suburb to beat all suburbs.

One place I always felt safe was Rattray Road (lived there '99-2001). It seemed to have a really good community spirit. One night a woman screamed out in the street and in the time it took me to get from my sofa to my window to see what had happened, people were already running out of their houses, checking she was okay. I did feel slightly less safe on Endymion Road, halfway up Brixton Hill, but in a year of living up there I never experienced any trouble myself.

isvicthere?

11-11-2003, 12:44

I feel safer walking around Brixton at night than I would in a small town, e.g. Eastleigh, Luton, Yeovil etc. In these kind of places the pubs shut and everybody is on the the street at the same time. This, coupled with the fact that the drug of choice/only drug available is alcohol, makes violence pretty much a certainty.

In Brixton, on the other hand, the night economy is not so rigidly defined by the licensing laws, plus many people are stoned, E'd up etc. and are consequently much less likely to have a punch up on their agenda. In fact I have a mate (whom some of you probably know) who lives in Brixton and who spent several years in east Jerusalem, and finds both much safer to walk around than the small town in Ireland he comes from.

That said, one should not underestimate that very nasty things can, and do, happen.

Ol Nick

11-11-2003, 12:46

Josephine Avenue- A study in fear

You are right to fear Josephine Avenue as it has been the scene of ALL MAJOR CRIMES of the last 1000 years.

When Nero was King of England in the Middles Ages it was to Jospehine Avenue he came to DRINK THE BLOOD OF HIS OWN CHILDREN.

When Jack the Ripper stalked the streets of Lambeth it was in Josephine Avenue he came to MURDER DEFENCELESS WOMEN.

When Hitler invaded Poland, it was in Josephine Avenue that he LAUNCHED THE NAZI BLITZKRIEG.

When Margaret Thatcher came to power it was in Josephine Avenue that she STOLE FROM THE POOR TO GIVE TO THE RICH.

I wouldn't go within a million miles of Josephine Avenue. It is a stinking cess-pit of foul and degraded humanity. And pricey at that.

IntoStella

11-11-2003, 12:49

Originally posted by Justin
Quite. One thing I always say to other people about Brixton is that I don't feel afraid at all when walking around. Maybe this is just a lack of awareness on my part, and clearly quite a few people do get attacked, but to be honest I still feel safer walking along, say, Effra Road than I would walking around soemwhere like Liverpool Street at night. The fact that there's always people around makes it feel far safer (even if it's not, I suppose) than the empty streets which are so typical elsewhere.Yes, wasn't the cannabis trial 2002? I feel a damn sight safer in Brixton than I did in West Norwood, where I was mugged three times and faced a long, deserted, poorly lit, cctv free journey home from the beaten track. I used to be shitting myself.

It is all a matter of purely subjective perception. It is impossible to make a logical or meaningful assessment of the real risks.

Don't be put off, DUAF. It's good that people are actually sharing their experiences. I'm sure much of London is every bit as prone to street crime. Not knowing about it might make you feel safer, but obviously you wouldn't be in reality.

Calva dosser

11-11-2003, 12:54

"It is a stinking cess-pit of foul and degraded humanity"

Have we met? I've only been there once.

twisted

11-11-2003, 12:59

I cut through there a lot in the evening time. Kinda prefer it to walking along Brixton Water Lane but then again wasn't aware of all the things said on here.

Minnie_the_Minx

11-11-2003, 13:09

Originally posted by IntoStella
I feel a damn sight safer in Brixton than I did in West Norwood, where I was mugged three times and faced a long, deserted, poorly lit, cctv free journey home from the beaten track. I used to be shitting myself.

Brixton Hill and all the side streets off it are very badly lit. In fact, all that money they wasted on putting up those new cameras (cunningly disguised as street lamps;)) was apparently a waste of time as the cameras can't pick anything up clearly due to crap street lighting.

poster342002

11-11-2003, 13:10

I think things have got a *bit* better over the last year or so - but (as IntoStella kind-of remarked), that's not really saying much when the improvement was from absolutely bloody appaling to merely piss-poor. I think the severe problems from 2000 - 2002 did not spring up out of nowhere - it semed to be going downhill from around 1998 onwards with the 2000 - 2002 point being where the problems reached their peak.

That said, it does indeed seem to have gotten a little better lately. There's no longer crowds of drug dealers making a nuisance of themselves around KFC and Coldharbour Lane, the Hight Street isn't *quite* so nasty at the moment, the CSOs positioned around the tube entrance have discouraged a lot of trouble and Windrush Square doesn't appear to be frequented by drug pushers all day long as it did a few months back. The buses around Brixton have a safer feel as well - due in part, I feel, to the introduction of new brighter, cleaner buses on a lot of the routes. For some reason, the newer appearance of these buses seems to have deterred a lot of the troublemakers who used to lurk at the back of the upper decks. The route No 2 is now a much more pleasant experience than it was.

In my view, the cannabis experiment did not help matters at the time. Whilst setting up an "Amsterdam style" series of coffee-shops where it could be purchased and smoked would a have been a progressive step, merely allowing a situation where you had to run a gauntlet of dodgy blokes muttering "skunkskunkskunk" was a botched half-measure that merely contributed to a generally unpleasant and threatening atmosphere. I get the general feeling that a lot of dealers of nastier stuff were able to operate more easily during that time under the cover of appearing to be a weed-seller.

The challenge now is to keep up the momentum of improvement - and that means the police need to now tackle the "displacement" effect whereby the heavy drug-dealing that previously dogged the High Street has been pushed into the side-streets and is a nuisance for residents therein.

Minnie_the_Minx

11-11-2003, 13:18

twisted - are you regularly approached by prostitutes then?

IntoStella

11-11-2003, 14:09

WHAT A QUESTION!!:D :D

twisted

11-11-2003, 14:44

Originally posted by Minnie_the_Minx
twisted - are you regularly approached by prostitutes then?

I only notice them round the corner from the Indian takeway near the corner of JA and Brixton Hill but they ignore me prob because I don't make eye contact but I do see them quite a lot. They seem to have moved down that way more recently from further up the hill around the Telegraph and Dumbarton Rd.

Oh I've seen a few at the Hob end too on the wall outside the carpet store.

Minnie_the_Minx

11-11-2003, 14:58

Was only asking! Everyone else does. In fact, I've even been approached by kerb crawlers down there and I don't look anything like one of the Brixton Hill prostitutes:)

hatboy

11-11-2003, 17:04

Originally posted by isvicthere?
I feel safer walking around Brixton at night than I would in a small town, e.g. Eastleigh, Luton, Yeovil etc. In these kind of places the pubs shut and everybody is on the the street at the same time. This, coupled with the fact that the drug of choice/only drug available is alcohol, makes violence pretty much a certainty.

In Brixton, on the other hand, the night economy is not so rigidly defined by the licensing laws, plus many people are stoned, E'd up etc. and are consequently much less likely to have a punch up on their agenda. In fact I have a mate (whom some of you probably know) who lives in Brixton and who spent several years in east Jerusalem, and finds both much safer to walk around than the small town in Ireland he comes from.

That said, one should not underestimate that very nasty things can, and do, happen.

I'd say Vic's take on this is pretty much how things seem to me too. There's also another factor - more tolerance of freaks (you know what I mean). It doesn't matter if people look "weird" round here. But it does matter that you're a bit streetwise and don't interfere in certain things.

Ol nick - yeah funny, but as IntoStella said, there was a mad patch and Josephine Ave WAS a hotspot for muggings.

hendo

11-11-2003, 18:40

I moved to Brixton three years ago convinced I'd be mugged. But I have never (touch wood) had any trouble of that kind whatever.

And I agree that things have definitely improved; the travel card touts have even disappeared and the front-of-KFC drugs supermarket appears to have shut - let's hope for good.

Mad and bad things do sometimes go on in Brixton, but there is a much more wholesome flavour to the atmosphere here than in many of the allegedly more salubrious areas of London.

You have to take care; but you have to take care pretty much anywhere.

pooka

12-11-2003, 13:09

Originally posted by pooka
Where might you move to instead?

For what it's worth, these are the Street Crimes/10,000 population for August this year. It's a turn around for Lambeth, which used to be way out in front at about 22.

Hackney.............................15.4
Lambeth.............................15.0
Newham.............................12.2
Westminster.......................12.1
Haringey...............................9.9
Southwark............................9.8
Lewisham .............................9.6
Waltham Forest....................9.4
Kensington & Chelsea..........9.4
Camden................................9.3
Islington...............................8.8
Hammersmith & Fulham........8.5
Tower Hamlets......................7.9
Brent.....................................7.4
Ealing....................................5.7
Redbridge.............................5.1
Barking & Dagenham............4.8
Croydon................................4.6
Greenwich............................4.3
Hounslow ............................4.1
Wandsworth........................4.0
Enfield..................................3.9
Harrow.................................3.7
Barnet..................................3.3
Bromley................................3.0
Hillingdon.............................2.3
Havering..............................2.3
Kingston upon Thames........2.1
Merton.................................2.0
Bexley..................................1.8
Richmond Upon Thames.......1.6
Sutton..................................1.5

Ol Nick

12-11-2003, 13:22

Hackney.............................15.4
Lambeth.............................15.0
Newham.............................12.2

I bet if they took the Josephine Avenue total out of those figures they'd drop away to almost nothing.

Bob

12-11-2003, 14:18

Originally posted by Ol Nick
I bet if they took the Josephine Avenue total out of those figures they'd drop away to almost nothing.

I don't mean to be rude me old devil but have you read the 'Mugged in Lambeth' thread? Lambeth's got enough muggings to have two vibrant threads about them in the Brixton forum. I feel a perverse local pride that we can have a special thread on muggings in one particular road!

Minnie_the_Minx

12-11-2003, 14:20

Bob - you lucky sod.

Maybe I should start a thread on muggings in Elm Park:rolleyes: :D

Bob

12-11-2003, 14:50

Originally posted by Minnie_the_Minx
Bob - you lucky sod.

Maybe I should start a thread on muggings in Elm Park:rolleyes: :D

Err why am I lucky? An abundance of mugging stories to read?

Minnie_the_Minx

12-11-2003, 14:53

Originally posted by Bob
I feel a perverse local pride that we can have a special thread on muggings in one particular road!

Bob - the above says it all:D

IntoStella

12-11-2003, 15:06

Interesting figures, pookster.

I guess we could all move to Sutton but I'd rather live with the possibility of mugging than the certainty of dying of boredom. The very word S***** makes me shudder. Brrrrrrrr! :eek:

Ms T

12-11-2003, 15:22

I know of at least two people who've been mugged on Effra Road. I lived on Kellett Road for ten years, and never even came close to being attacked. However, I've now moved and have to walk a short distance down Railton Rd, which makes me distinctly nervous at night. Am I being unduly cautious, or should I be very careful round there? Any advice would be gratefully received. Hatboy -- I believe you live very close to me. What is your view?

hatboy

12-11-2003, 17:45

Well I love my stretch of Railton. I know a fair few of my neighbours and some have become close friends. I see no serious reason to be nervous in either Kellet, Railton or Mayall roads.

Railton is well lit and completely quiet nowadays. In fact you may well have been safer Mrs T when the street was lined with guys hanging out and weed dealers. There were always people around then. Now Railton is often empty. (The Coldharbour Lane crackfest and replica-drugs market down the road in today's Brixton is very different IMO).

Can't think what else to say. Except to be aware at night as with any inner city area. I know a lone female can feel (and be) more at risk perhaps but, as I said, I see no reason to worry about Railton specifically.

There is a thread on Harmony pub/bar in Railton on page 2 or 3 of this forum I think. You could run in there if ever you feel threatened, or go to the Dexter playground and ask for Collin, the worker there. Gotta dash, so do a search if interested in Harmony thread. And don't worry.

Tho as you know I think where you lived before was a better, more interesting location, but that's just me.

:)

isvicthere?

13-11-2003, 08:55

Originally posted by Minnie_the_Minx
Brixton Hill and all the side streets off it are very badly lit.

I would have agreed with you until my visit to Berlin last week, where even quite main thoroughfares are deeply murky. By comparison, I was walking my dog near the Windmill (pub, not park) this morning at about 6a.m. and the estate seemed really bright.

This is, of course, not particularly helpful. Just an observation.