View Full Version : Feedback on the delayed progress of Loughborough Junction
The proposed redevelopment of the Green Man does retain an option for the ground floor to be retained as A3, it does not have to be used for residential purposes.
If the application had been approved at the committee meeting (14 October) then the plan was for works on the Warrior and the Green Man to commence excluding the flats to the ground floor, mainly for the reasons mentioned on this site.
The Ground floor would be the subject of a marketing campaign for A3 use for the duration of the works (estimated 6 – 8 months) if by then a retail business had still not been found then the Ground floor flats would be added to the contract rather than leave that part of the property empty. Once the area had improved the ground floor would almost certainly find a business tenant and the A3 use could be re-instated.
The Green man was awarded planning permission, October last year, for full conversion to flats. This previous planning approval will be exercised if the current application is refused. Thus defeating the object of refusing this application based on the ground floor use.
The main concern here is that due to the tremendous costs involved with renovating these two properties, the Warrior and the Green Man, they have to be done in unison. They have been empty and closed for much too long now and the planning system may delay things further.
It may be some time before this deferred application is heard by the committee again, if it is refused Ed Watson, Head of
Planning, said to the members at the previous hearing the decision would almost certainly be overturned on appeal. An appeal could take a further 6 months to be heard.
This is the situation as it stands from the parent company of the two buildings. It would be good to get works started on these properties as soon as possible. This has been delayed by the deferred application therefore support for the full development of the Green Man would be the best way forward.
Let me know what the community is feeling here. I would like to propose a meeting to discuss these matters to move this situation forward
{incorrect date amended}
The decision on the 14th October was deferred, yes. See this:
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52549&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
I think the pub/bar idea is probably a gonner. I reckon, and according to Donatus Anyanwu (ward councillor), that some people are still worried that it would degenerate into the same state as the Green Man pub did before. With good management there's no reason why a pub/bar there would be as it was. (Not that the Green Man was a focus for problems until the last year or two). But if people feel an alcohol venue is not appropriate, OK.
However, I think we should still fight to keep retail shop units or something useful for people on the ground floor.
I think the planning committee will go for this, but they've asked for a further assurance from the police that this is acceptable to them. The developers say there is no demand from shopkeepers to open shops at LJ. But as the area regenerates (especially with the East London line extension) I think the demand will develop. Obviously little shops and pubs don't survive everywhere these days but LJ is a small centre in itself and I feel it has the potential to have so much more facilities for local people than now.
This thing pisses me off really. Why can't people see that closing pubs permanently because of drug dealing or violence is very short-termist?
I do think that it would be a good idea for the developers to meet with the Angell/Coldharbour Group of BAF to divise a plan they would feel happy to support.
I do see the point about delays, and despite my objections at the planning meeting, I'd be very happy to see the developers and the BAF come up with a quick solution that all would be pleased with and support.
Also, do we have any guarantee that the Warrior will be regenerated as a locals pub as suggested by many on here when MR WARRIOR asked what people wanted?
And Mr Warrior and/or sun man, wouldn't it be better to have a noisy bugger like me on your side. ;)
"If the application had been approved at the committee meeting (14 October) then the plan was for works on the Warrior and the Green Man to commence excluding the flats to the ground floor, mainly for the reasons mentioned on this site.
The Ground floor would be the subject of a marketing campaign for A3 use for the duration of the works (estimated 6 – 8 months) if by then a retail business had still not been found then the Ground floor flats would be added to the contract rather than leave that part of the property empty. Once the area had improved the ground floor would almost certainly find a business tenant and the A3 use could be re-instated".
You say that now, but the developer (you or Mr Warrior?) augued strongly at the planning meeting that residential was the best option for the ground floor and there was no demand for retail/something useful for local residents.
How can people have faith that the developers would really attempt to market shop units?
I'd like some legal assurance that the Warrior will be a pub again and that the Green Man will contain shop units.
"Once the area had improved the ground floor would almost certainly find a business tenant and the A3 use could be re-instated".
I'm sorry but this is rubbish. Once it's flats it will stay flats. Who are you kidding? Can't you just put shop units in from the beginning? And wouldn't the rent from them do you just as well as rent from flats?
Totally unsuitable location for ground floor residential anyway.
Donna Ferentes
17-10-2003, 12:25
It's another developer, like my thread. How odd.
It's not a very squattable place, you can be sure of that.
average joe
20-10-2003, 14:41
Dunno bout that - there's squatters in the old '?' bar about 100 metres away
A poor response to this. But that means LJ people haven't looked here recently. Not that people don't care.
Sunman - I really think you could think carefully about what a good position you'd be in having well located shop units to let when the East London Line comes west thru Brixton and LJ - which IMO it more likely will than not. If the shops don't let straight off, pull down the shutters until they do. You can encourage investment in that strip if you make the Warrior a destination venue as suggested on MR WARRIOR'S thread.
Everyone I talk to says they want something useful on the ground floor there. And you have more than one ward councillor against your current approach too. It would be great if you could be more honestly co-operative, not "we'll turn it into shops later". I expect you'll make lots of money either way. Wouldn't you like aletter of support from the Brixton Area Forum?
(PS Of course I'd really like to see some social housing in this plan, but I realise you are not obligated to provide that).
Hope you'll consider....
:)
Yeah, I'm in the '?'
The Green Man is not a nice place to squat. Believe me.
average joe
21-10-2003, 08:11
You've prolly seen me around then B. I have hair like a guinea pig and live in the Coast
aurora green
22-10-2003, 10:15
Basically, as a local resident, I am totally for the restoration of these properties as pub and/or shops with flats above. Our area is crying out for it.
To develop all into 'luxury' flats would bring perminant loss to the community, we need a good local pub, so many have already been lost.
We need better local facilities. We are so poorly catered for.
I find it hard to believe that beacause the other shop keepers said there was no need/call for further services, that means we dont need any. It seems local shopkeepers wold have a vestred intrest in preventing any competition, leaving us with a couple of expensive 24 hour mini-marts for all eternity.
You have to walk quite a long way for a decent loaf of bread round here..
I also find it extreamly hard to believe that once the downstairs of these pubs had been converted to flats, they would ever return to retal units.
THE WARRIOR
22-10-2003, 12:32
It seems that the council believes it is in a dilemma having granted permission for the ground floor of the green man to be converted to residential, any change would be considered an about turn - thereby testing their credibility, yet there has been an about turn - an about turn within the community who live in the area who have vigourously campaigned to remove the illegal trading from the area.
The very same community who want retail (not necessarily a bar), and there can be restrictions entered into the planning permission on opening hours. There is a huge demand, but it will take someone enterprising to allow this. In return permission for a further floor of flats to help finance the risk would seem reasonable.
The community has shown it grit in dealing with the illegal activities, and investment is now coming in. There are many new properties generating customers already. A petition generated by the community to get an East London Line Stop at Loughborough Junction - in effect a Tube interchange is gathering much support at the moment.
I do not think the community would let the developer down and not endeavour to patronise any A3 use of the old Green Man.
This debate must be brought to the attention of the Planners so they have to acknowledge the change happening.
If you want to see the continued clean up of Loughborough Junction, but with the return of local shops and useful facilities for nearby residents, you need to act now! Tell Lambeth Planning that any loss of ground floor shop-fronts to luxury apartments (there is no social housing in these developments) is unacceptable.
Write to:
Aimee Doig, Planning Case Officer
Application number 03/02058/FUL
Planning Services
Acre House
10 Acre Lane
LONDON SW2 5LL
THE WARRIOR
22-10-2003, 16:00
but remember any ground floor flats will only have a veneer of luxury - in reality they will be overlooked, adjacent to a very narrow pavement, traffic lights, busy roads and crossing point. The windows will be unopenable because of noise, dirt and security, and they will probably have to be let out at high rents on very short term tenancies.
You asked for some honest co-operation. The Developer in fact provided this in the first instance by closing the Green Man some 12 months ago at the request of the local community and obviously took a considerable "hit" on the lost rental revenue. The Planning Dept, Town Centre Team, BAF etc all decided that residential should replace the Pub, hence the current permission for Flats, which incidentally are certainly not luxury Flats for Sale. They will be very basic Flats for rent to local people.
The same applies to the Warrior PH where again the Flats will be for rent. The pub is going to cost a lot of money to set up and the Developer is obviously taking a gamble that trade will be forthcoming.
The owner of these properties is actually an Investor rather than a Developer who intends to invest long term in the area. You are right in that rental income is the same from Flats or Shops. The problem is demand for Shop Units could be light years away. If someone would like to sign up now the Investor would bite their hand off - it is hugely cheaper to create a Ground Floor Shell than build 2 Flats. The Ground Floor could probably be left as a shell for the next 12 months to see if a tenant can be found but no longer.
The Developer is now almost ready to start works, but a refusal of the current application will set work back at least another 6 months while the appeal process runs its course. The developer may also lose interest in the project altogether as it has already been running for some two years.
I hope you will now give some support to get things moving in the regeneration of the LJ area where a decent Pub and 20 Flats for rent by local people is surely more important that arguing over a Shop Unit which may never find a tenant.
It's all a bit of a mess really. I think, as you know, that wrong decisions were made previously. (An over-reaction to the drug dealers - and this is not under-estimating what went on round there. I saw it often).
I'd possibly support what you say in the last para above Sun man. But the thing is, how do people know you will really spend a year attempting to promote the shop units?
If you can provide a binding guarantee of some sort that you will both do this and the Warrior as promised?
And I still think that the demand for shops there from shopkeepers will really come up once the East London Line tube extension is on its way. Can't you do them and just sit on them till the area comes up?
THE WARRIOR
25-10-2003, 11:36
I don't think wrong decisions were made previously it is just that the area has and is changing and therefore different decisions are now called for.
Bumped for JackDaw - you could search the forum you know?
I've been involved with this. The situation now is that work on the Green Man and the Warrior should start within a month or so. The Warrior will be a traditional pub again with flats above. The Green Man will probably be flats above and a doctors' surgery at ground floor level.
People are still lobbying and petitioning Ken for the East London Line stop at LJ.
The area can be again and was a small centre in itself and I think it's about to turn a corner and improve.
Search the forum for "East London Line" "Loughborough" or "Green Man" if you want to know more.
:)
corporate whore
09-02-2004, 11:48
Cycling through the Junction last week was an unhappy experience - The Harriers is in an advanced state of demolition. I never went in there, and often (maybe unjustifiably) felt a little intimidated by its patrons, but it's another pub gone. What will replace it?
Question for The B - was it you daubed 'Harry Roberts' in the '?' upstairs windows, then? Radical!
I had a few good late nights in the Harriers. Another late night reggae haunt bites the dust. :(
THE WARRIOR
09-02-2004, 13:43
Permission was granted to replace the Harriers with a restaurant/bar on ground and basement level and flats above, with local consultation resulting in a revised application to use brick rather than white painted stucco at ground floor level (to minimise the temptation for grafitti). I assume it is being demolished in order to commence building the scheme.
Yeah, but it still means the loss of what I said. Btw, those very flat-fronted, small-windowed flats opposite the Harriers are a disappointment. They are ugly.
THE WARRIOR
09-02-2004, 13:58
Yeah, but it still means the loss of what I said. Btw, those very flat-fronted, small-windowed flats opposite the Harriers are a disappointment. They are ugly.
Yes they are pig ugly - and not even finished 2 years on but not all new buildings should be judged by a Metropolitan Housing Association Scheme. Don't rubbish any attempt to invest in the area. I think it is regrettable that the Harriers could not be converted, but the accommodation wass not flexible enough - I have seen the plans of the replacement - it is a reasonably good and brave attempt to put something of quality back.
corporate whore
09-02-2004, 14:01
Aren't they just? Mind you, the houses on the same side as the Harriers might look quite nice from the outside, but they're pokey inside.
Sorry to hear you're mourning the Harriers, HB - doesn't seem right a place has to close because of incidents in the street...
aurora green
09-02-2004, 16:25
I tell you what, I'd love to live in one of those new metropolitan houses, they're lovley inside, though I do agree its bad that they haven't been finished properly yet.
it all adds to the run-down feel of the area.
As for the Harriers, I have to admit I've never been in there, but do think its a shame to loose yet another pub. I look forward to see what's coming, but sincerely hope it doesn't get abandoned half way, or left empty forever, like they other two.
Hi everyone,
First post after a year of lurking. Just wanted to pick a few peoples brains about LJ as I am hoping to move there (Minet Road) from Railton Road in a couple of months time. I was just hoping for some of the basics such as nearest supermarket/nice pub/cafe etc etc. I've looked at the reviews on the main U75.com page but any further gen (such as recently opened places) would be gratefully recieved. Any other useful info about the area from peeps who live there (such as can Thameslink be relied upon? - I've heard it can be a bit, erm, interesting in terms of punctuality at times).
p.s. Please feel free to send in the winged monkeys to track me down for any errors in punctuality/grammer/intelligence in this post.
Thanks
Not much in the way of supermarkets or nice pubs around there at the moment.
There are quite a few redevelopment plans for the area including a community police station (subject to funding), redevelopment of Green man/ Warrior pubs (subject to planning and building quotations) and the redevelopment of Belinda road to part social housing and commercial units in the arches (subject to planning)
Sorry about all the "subject 2's" but it's all I know on the gen plan.
I don't use the Thameslink regularly but I think it's pretty good for access to Blackfriars and the City. :)
aurora green
10-02-2004, 08:34
I use the Thames link service regularly and think it's great. You're just mins away from central London, it's a real asset. There are a few problems on the weekend at the moment, because they're building the channel tunnel train terminal thing at Kings cross, but otherwise I usually find the service quite reliable.
As for immediate local facilities in LJ, well as things stand, they are piss poor, but then again 24hour access to bread, milk, fags and even beer, is not to be sniffed at I suppose. Plus there are two nearby post offices, a chemist and a drycleaners.
Things could be so much better though, but transport wise, LJ is great.
I use the Thames link service regularly and think it's great. You're just mins away from central London, it's a real asset. There are a few problems on the weekend at the moment, because they're building the channel tunnel train terminal thing at Kings cross, but otherwise I usually find the service quite reliable.
Things could be so much better though, but transport wise, LJ is great.
I used to live at LJ and get the Thameslink, which I still use everyday to go to work. When it's good, it's good but it is SO often delayed, cancelled etc. The stats show it is the most unreliable of all the train companies in the country. I also found it bloody hard to get on at LJ many mornings because it is so full. If the East London line comes to LJ it will make a massive difference.
I used to live at LJ and get the Thameslink, which I still use everyday to go to work. When it's good, it's good but it is SO often delayed, cancelled etc. The stats show it is the most unreliable of all the train companies in the country. I also found it bloody hard to get on at LJ many mornings because it is so full. If the East London line comes to LJ it will make a massive difference.
I think that ELL will eventually go out to LJ and Brix but it wont happen as part of the original build period. To be honest I'm not that confident of the extensions being built any time soon as the Government has refused to underwrite the costs. It's going to be built as a sort of PPP/PFI contract but I even though this means the private sector would pay for it initially I doubt it will be given the go ahead unless TFL/GLA/SRA/whoever can prove they can pay the bills.
As for Thameslink, there is the danger that it will get very unreliable in the future if all the works for Thameslink 2000 get given the go-ahead. But again, there's no money in the pot at the minute so I reckon this shouldn't be a problem for a while....
corporate whore
10-02-2004, 11:32
Agree with Mr BC - I take Thameslink daily and when it's good it's great - when it's bad it's soul destroying.
The trouble comes because Thameslink don't run any of the stations south of Blackfriars - even LJ AFAIK, which no other company services (privatisation, don'tchajustluvit?). Thus, if delays occur, staff are under no obligation to dish out information. The electronic boards are extremely unreliable.
I don't 'get' Thameslink 2000. Why try and push through the new stuff over Borough Market - with all the hassle and anger and cost that entails - when there's absolutely no need for Thameslink to run a fast service from London Bridge to East Croydon? That route's well provided for out of London Bridge/Charing Cross.
They should just put more trains to East Croydon and beyond via LJ/Herne Hill/Tulse Hill. This would ease some of the London Bridge bottleneck, provide better, more regular links through LJ and HH - why not 8 trains an hour instead of 4? There's no other traffic on those lines...
They should just put more trains to East Croydon and beyond via LJ/Herne Hill/Tulse Hill. This would ease some of the London Bridge bottleneck, provide better, more regular links through LJ and HH - why not 8 trains an hour instead of 4? There's no other traffic on those lines...
Apart from the Eurostar, which gets priority, causing more lateness to long suffering Thameslinkies.
corporate whore
10-02-2004, 11:47
Ah true nuff, L'Eurostar.... What's the deal with that, BTW? When the St. Pancras Eurostar terminal's finished, will they still run out of Waterloo?
The HH cross-over's the only sticking point preventing my mad plan, er, grand transport blueprint, taking shape.
I maintain it could be done. Two southbound TL trains an hour sit at HH for 10 minutes. A swift timetable rejig could be all that's needed, and if TL stopped running so many trains via London Bridge that wouldn't be soooo tricky.
I haven't posted on here for quite some time as I got pretty fed up with the 'holier than thou' attitude that many of the regular Brixton Forum posters appear to have. I also couldn't stand the way that the consistent rantings on here by the 'dominant few' implied that people like myself should be made to feel guilty for the fact that they have recently moved to Brixton and 'worse' bought a flat here. The stereotypes that have been bandied around are about as small minded as the worst article the Sun has ever written :rolleyes:
The reason I feel compelled to post is that I'm frankly fucking gobsmacked that the whole Green Man/Warrior saga is still continuing, SOME TWO YEARS after they got bought for development, largely as a result of some of the absurd and bureaucratic actions of the local planning committees and this bizarre campaign to the retain the ground floor of the Green Man as retail space.
The Green Man and the Warrior/Junction were shut down for good reasons and not because of some sinister plot to undermine the local community and put cash into the hands of developers. I completely agreed with the sentiment that both buildings shouldn't just become 'luxury flats' (another grotesque and pathetic stereotype by the way), and one of the first things to come out of the original discussion was that YES, the Warrior would be better off (for everyone) to be restored as a pub, GREAT, so WHY (oh why?) the best part of a year and half later are both places still largely unworked on, with the net result being that LJ has simply become an even worse ghost town than it ever was before.
The answer to that has been because of the continuing 'concern' that renovating the Green Man completely would lose the area the chance to have ANOTHER pub, or this supposed holy grail of 'further retail space'... Tell me, what is the point? LJ needs more people to give it more atmosphere, and it needs people right at it's epicentre, i.e. people who are living there, rather than staggering pissed out of another boozer, whilst incidentally, they'll be one over the road (Ahem, The Warrior), and as for shops, well LJ isn't brilliant, but what other shops do you want, there's already a convenience store in the form of Sunstar... shit, maybe you want another Chicken place, oh, there's already Alberts place next door which at my last recollection isn't exactly doing a roaring trade...
My point being, how the hell do you expect ANYTHING to be done if it takes two years, TWO YEARS, to get past the usual gang of Nimby's (sorry dogooders) - Tell you what, why don't you let everyone who invests in the area have to stomach two years of interest payments without any payback at all - I'm surprised that the developer hasn't accepted several hundred thousand pounds in non sequential bills from the local crack lords so he can just have the places off his hands and the very serious business of turning the Green Man and Warrior into utter shitholes again can begin in earnest.
I would have thought turning the Warrior into a decent pub again was good enough for the area and a pretty good concession in the first place - but no, not enough for the 'Brixton Action Committee'
I just think its a fucking shame. LJ needs development and investment, and if things go on as they are no-one's going to touch the place with a barge pole. But, hang on, that's what you want isn't it? :rolleyes:
I'm sure you'll be pleased to hear that despite confused planning permissions and delays (which is down mainly to Lambeth not residents) that the Green Man/Warrior development is due to start in the next month or so.
Thru the Brixton Area Forum and a couple of what you'd maybe call "nimbys" the ground floor of the Green Man now looks like being a medical centre or doctor's surgery - something much needed locally.
I think you've got some of your facts and the direction of your aggression a bit mixed up.
:)
I'm sure you'll be pleased to hear that despite confused planning permissions and delays (which is down mainly to Lambeth not residents) that the Green Man/Warrior development is due to start in the next month or so.
Thru the Brixton Area Forum and a couple of what you'd maybe call "nimbys" the ground floor of the Green Man now looks like being a medical centre or doctor's surgery - something much needed locally.
I think you've got some of your facts and the direction of your aggression a bit mixed up.
:)
Please explain to me why it has taken two years to get to this stage Hatboy?
Is it (disorganised as they are) actually Lambeth's fault...? Or is it down to the continued blocking and re-start of the application process?
BTW - I think it's great it's going to be a doctors surgery - but is it worth the going through this process every time? Because if so, there is going to be considerably reduced investment in area's like LJ that badly need it, and fast.
I appreciate your point on the aggression side of things - I hadn't actually noticed that this thread was started as far back as October last year, and it was your comments on 'can you give us continued assurances' that raised my bile late last night.
THE WARRIOR
10-02-2004, 13:58
Please explain to me why it has taken two years to get to this stage Hatboy?
Is it (disorganised as they are) actually Lambeth's fault...? Or is it down to the continued blocking and re-start of the application process?
BTW - I think it's great it's going to be a doctors surgery - but is it worth the going through this process every time? Because if so, there is going to be considerably reduced investment in area's like LJ that badly need it, and fast.
I appreciate your point on the aggression side of things - I hadn't actually noticed that this thread was started as far back as October last year, and it was your comments on 'can you give us continued assurances' that raised my bile late last night.
The delay was primarily because the developers resubmitted their planning application last August to get further residential accommodation in the form of a mansard floor - presumably so that the development would stack up financially. They had permission for some time before that for a smaller development but chose to wait and put in the further application. Only 6 months has passed since - probably only 2 months more than if the community had supported their new scheme. Instead now as Hatboy says, there is a plan to incorporate a much needed public facility as well. Populating an area is not just about flats anywhere (bums in slums - would be created if the ground floor were converted to residential)
Incidentally the only station south of the Thames managed by Thameslink is LJ. A visit to any Thameslink station in N London - (where investment and maintenance occur) would suggest that they have forgotten this.
To avoid the cross over issue - couldn't trains run as a more frequent shuttle from Herne Hill (Sutton bound platform) to Blackfriars - as the line has ample capacity.
8 trains would be better than 4 ph but an improvement on 1 per hour in the evening would be better.
Still with no subsidy (Thameslink has to pay the government £millions for the priviledge of running the service) it is no wonder there is no investment/increase in services.
The delay was primarily because the developers resubmitted their planning application last August to get further residential accommodation in the form of a mansard floor - presumably so that the development would stack up financially. They had permission for some time before that for a smaller development but chose to wait and put in the further application. Only 6 months has passed since - probably only 2 months more than if the community had supported their new scheme. Instead now as Hatboy says, there is a plan to incorporate a much needed public facility as well. Populating an area is not just about flats anywhere (bums in slums - would be created if the ground floor were converted to residential)
Incidentally the only station south of the Thames managed by Thameslink is LJ. A visit to any Thameslink station in N London - (where investment and maintenance occur) would suggest that they have forgotten this.
To avoid the cross over issue - couldn't trains run as a more frequent shuttle from Herne Hill (Sutton bound platform) to Blackfriars - as the line has ample capacity.
8 trains would be better than 4 ph but an improvement on 1 per hour in the evening would be better.
Still with no subsidy (Thameslink has to pay the government £millions for the priviledge of running the service) it is no wonder there is no investment/increase in services.
I'm afraid I haven't been sticking tooth and nail with the exact detail of the case although I find it very very hard to believe that it is the developer who is at fault for the amount of time it has taken given that financially, these sorts of things have to be truned round quite quickly to guarantee that the bank doesn't call in your loans. On the roof issue, I'm not sure I see the problem of adding one as long as it's not made of steel girders and painted bright orange :confused: Was there an objection to it, and if so why?
Basically, I've lived down in LJ for a bit and have mates down there who are fed up with the place, especially with the boarded up state of the pubs - I'm really not sure you can convince me that the delays have
a. Been worthwhile
b. Not been caused by an absurd 'holier than thou' attitude amongst a 'minority' of the local community :rolleyes:
As for trains, LJ needs more of them as the LJ/Camberwell area struggles without better transport links. But we all know that.
aurora green
10-02-2004, 15:47
As a long-term local resident, It's your attitude Domski thats a bit grating. You seem to be suggesting that in the interests of speedy development, we should let developers do what they want with no thought for the long term future of our area. I am delighted about the doctors surgery, its far far better than just turning it all into flats, of benefit to the whole community. Definately worthwhile.
I do not agree with your view that just because the pub had a bad name, our area should be deprived of one, forever.
Taking an interest in long term issues cannot be dismissed as 'holier than thou'.
My attitude is a bit grating... come off it, I appreciate that you're a long term local resident, but my re-collection is that one of the earliest things to come out of this long and wasteful process was that the Warrior was going to be reinstated as a proper pub (rather than flats, a 'style bar', or a seedy underground rave venue) - to me this more than represented a good attitude to the community, I know that achieving a doctors surgery is a good outcome, but how many other potential investors in the area have decided that they simply can't be arsed because of the stalling attitude of both the council and certain (I'd say unrepresentative pushy voices) within the local community. I remember speaking to the lady in the cafe over the road when they were first shut down and her being thrilled about it, but also saying that she hoped they now got on and did something rather than leave it boarded up.
One thing I'm certainly not saying is that developers should be allowed to do exactly what they want, but there's a balance here that has NOT (IMO) been got right, and IT IS the 'holier than thou' attitude, continuing re-discussion and the spinelessness of the council that has made a laughing stock of the whole process. The Green Man was bad news (I'm pretty sure that's the majority opinion), and I'm afraid NOTHING ever gets done if every last person has to be catered for - or if they do, it takes years! :rolleyes:
Brixton Hatter
10-02-2004, 16:34
...how many other potential investors in the area have decided that they simply can't be arsed because of the stalling attitude of both the council and certain (I'd say unrepresentative pushy voices) within the local community
Well, hopefully a strong, vocal local community WILL put off the developers who are more interested in making money than putting something into the community. And I don't care if the voices are "unrepresentative" - all people are allowed to have their say. If you've got a strong opinion on something you really believe in - say it. And say it loud.
...I remember speaking to the lady in the cafe over the road when they were first shut down and her being thrilled about it, but also saying that she hoped they now got on and did something rather than leave it boarded up.
You can't really have it both ways. If you want somewhere closed down you can't expect it to be opened again overnight. And who is the "they" that should sort things out anyway? You have to find a buyer, draw up the plans etc. These things take time...
THE WARRIOR
10-02-2004, 16:40
My attitude is a bit grating... come off it, I appreciate that you're a long term local resident, but my re-collection is that one of the earliest things to come out of this long and wasteful process was that the Warrior was going to be reinstated as a proper pub (rather than flats, a 'style bar', or a seedy underground rave venue) - to me this more than represented a good attitude to the community, I know that achieving a doctors surgery is a good outcome, but how many other potential investors in the area have decided that they simply can't be arsed because of the stalling attitude of both the council and certain (I'd say unrepresentative pushy voices) within the local community. I remember speaking to the lady in the cafe over the road when they were first shut down and her being thrilled about it, but also saying that she hoped they now got on and did something rather than leave it boarded up.
One thing I'm certainly not saying is that developers should be allowed to do exactly what they want, but there's a balance here that has NOT (IMO) been got right, and IT IS the 'holier than thou' attitude, continuing re-discussion and the spinelessness of the council that has made a laughing stock of the whole process. The Green Man was bad news (I'm pretty sure that's the majority opinion), and I'm afraid NOTHING ever gets done if every last person has to be catered for - or if they do, it takes years! :rolleyes:
What none of you seem to have grasped is that the developer having received planning permission for the Warrior decided to hold off development until they had a revised permission for the Green Man as a matter of economy. This was submitted last August - the earliest it could have been considered was late Nov as it is - just 2 - 3 months of (including the non active xmas period) further consultation with the community has got the possibility of a Doctors surgery - as a resident I think that is time well spent.
Get your facts right before launching an attack on the community - it may look one way but is not as negative as you try to portray - there is a will to improve the area - support it.
I'm not making an attack on 'the community' FFS, that's just bollocks. I AM saying that I'm fed up with the people who make it their life's work to create unneccesary delays and endless (usually pointless) discussion. LJ has been a dive for too long because of it.
Mr Warrior - AFAIK, both the Warrior and Green Man were bought TWO years ago and nothing has happened. In my street in Brixton, two utterly fucked houses were bought at auction 6 months ago and they're both finished now, but I suppose people aren't happy about that because they'll be let out to people who aren't marginals :rolleyes:. I appreciate that the Warrior and GM are bigger jobs but everything I've read about them has suggested a culture of delay among a small sectional interest who wanted the Green Man (pointlessly) saved as a pub. An utter (and irresponsible) waste of time. I may have a few of my facts wrong because I don't spend my days trawling through all the detail, sorry, I've better things to do, BUT, you can't tell me with a straight face that a good fair few of these re-consultations have been an utter waste of time.
Domski - the delays are a shame but you can't blame people such as myself who fought to keep something useful for the community (and look like being rewarded for that tenacity by a medical centre - hardly a wasted effort). Blame the confusion around the whole planning process for the delay. It was mainly down to Lambeth Council red-tape getting in the way of common sense and to the developers own choice to submit their first revised application. (And less so to BAF and people like me wanting ground floor facilities at the GM although that will have added an extra month or two).
Also your point about the Green Man being all round "bad news" shows how little you know because the Green Man was a very decent pub (mainly serving the older West Indian community) until a few years ago. Majority opinion eh? - you can't know that, you weren't even aware of the Green Man's recent history apart from the last two years so who's "holier than thou" now then?
My "holier than thou" :rolleyes: intention therefore was to try and influence things to re-instate the pub as previous to the rough/dealing recent era of LJ. Or if that wasn't possible or more locals would be happier without the pub, to get something, anything useful at ground floor level. This looks succeeding as a medical centre/surgery.
I might remind you with your "bad news" comment about the Green Man that one of the biggest fuck-ups in this whole thing initially was the short-termist reaction to the problems at the Green Man, ie "close it down now and forever, it's a drugs pub".
By the way, the "marginals" comment is clearly a dig at me but irrelevant to this subject. Although I'd prefer you'd say criticisms of me to my face please.
No-one with any sense wants to deliberately obstruct or waste time Domski. That is just what happens when local authorities are involved. Believe me it's been a pain in the arse from this side too. But finally everything should be going ahead.
Tonight (yes this very day!) the council planning officers are due to reject the Green Man app with no ground-floor use and approve the one with provision for a medical centre/surgery. Let's hope they get this simple decision right.
:)
It's refreshing to know that someone else shares my frustration at the amount of time it's taking to process the planning apps. on these buildings Domski.
Mr. Warrior and Hatboy, you have missed the point that had the original application for the GM been approved in October, residential use on the Ground floor would only have been an option rather than a certainty. An option for example if there hadn't been a forthcoming trade use during the build process.
It may seem like it was worth the wait to delay the process in exchange for certainty of A3 use on the ground floor but it merely increases pressure on the decision to abandon the entire project on financial grounds.
You could not have been expected to know this and I respect your determination to ensure LJ develops properly. Please also consider that the application was only made for residential use on the ground floor as it was what the council had just approved unanamously at committee level on the previous submission (i.e it should have gone through).
There should be news in a month or so as to whether the build process will go ahead.
In the meantime I apologise to everyone for the continued appearance of the two properties looking so abandoned and boarded on the ground floors. All I can say is that every effort is being made to bring them back to life and restore the incredibly beautiful facades hidden behind all the years of dirt and neglect. :)
What do you mean "whether it goes ahead". I heard the only reason that you weren't granted permission yesterday was because you, sun-man (the developer) didn't attend the meeting and insisted the decision was postponed again until you could. You did that.
Let me emphasize once again that the main delay is down to the council planners previous confusion and the developers own revision of plans. Me and other local residents slight interference makes little difference.
If it all doesn't go ahead this is down to the developer's choice. And that's all. I'm sorry but it's time to get on with it now and that is entirely up to you, sun-man.
Think positive. It's a great development. The pub (The Warrior) will be popular, the flats will sell or rent and the local community will have a medical centre/surgery we didn't have before.
You'll be in the vanguard of regeneration there sun-man, and the prospect of the East London Line (there's alot of local pressure to push for this, it's not really decided that it won't come) will make this an even more worthwhile project.
:)
:rolleyes: What's happened now? As I've said I haven't really got time to keep thoroughly up to date on things in minute detail, but does this mean it's been delayed AGAIN... Jesus H Christ :rolleyes: I'm not pointing a finger of blame at anyone because I've got no idea why but I can't believe this is being dragged out further...
Hatboy - I apologise for my obvious dig at you, this is probably about as close to telling something like that to your face as possible - as I don't know you I'm afraid. The reason for the dig is that I was just a bit fed up with the discrimination (and gross generalisations) that you (and some others) make against certain sections of the Brixton populous... all this crap about young, hip and trendy people, tallulahs, claphamites, olivers, yuppies and such similar bollocks is pretty offensive to a fairly substantial proportion of people who call Brixton their home - and frankly I got a bit fucked off with being made to feel guilty about living here by the 'repetative sanctanimity' (sic) of some of the posters on here. I'm truly sorry that the market works in the way that it does but I'm afraid that's life, if you really want to change the way things work go and get yourself elected onto the local council and cause some proper internal rucus rather than posturing around on these boards about 'what should happen' and 'how unfair it all is'...
Anyway - I would just like to see LJ get the investment it requires without death from 1000 cuts at committee stage - that's all... and as for the Green Man, once a pub turns into a frankly dangerous drug dealing outpost (tell me with a straight face it wasn't), then it either needs to be pulled down or turned into something that will prevent it returning to that state - with all the options considered, developing the Warrior into a proper pub and the GM into flats looked to me to be the best option, AND ONE that could have been carried out with minimum fuss and with at least majority support from the local community... as it happens, like I said, a few storm in a teacup speacialists have delayed the whole process and I wouldn't be surprised if they were left to become dillapidated shitholes whilst the centre of LJ rotted alongside it.... :rolleyes:
lang rabbie
12-02-2004, 17:25
the prospect of the East London Line (there's a lot of local pressure to push for this, it's not really decided that it won't come) will make this an even more worthwhile project.
I wouldn't hold your breath on this, despite what various people who want to be (re)elected as Mayor or to the GLA may promise between now and June. The ELL project is so strapped for cash that extra stations will only happen if they are funded by development.
Despite the fine words on "design for a sustainable city" in the Mayor's new London Plan (http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/strategies/sds/london_plan_download.jsp) - I reckon that will require high density, and probably high rise, new development at LJ to pay the £multi-million costs that have been suggested for a new station, not just a few pubs converted to flats.
This may not be a bad thing per se (that probably depends on your view of the realism of Ken's target of 28,910 extra homes in Lambeth by 2016 - page 56 of the plan) but it implies transformation of the area on a scale that some people may find daunting.
Domski - you haven't really listened, just repeated your accusations.
"if you really want to change the way things work go and get yourself elected onto the local council and cause some proper internal rucus rather than posturing around on these boards about 'what should happen' and 'how unfair it all is'..."
I stood for the Greens a couple of years ago. We came second.
Yuppies etc - My personal approach to people is to speak as I find really, but no I don't especially like market-forces gentrification, extreme divisions in wealth, racists, snobs and conservative young professionals, sorry.
Here's a long essay about gentrification:
http://www.socresonline.org.uk/7/3/butler.html
It argues that many posher middle-class people in London do not mix.
Here's some previous posts from "Reubeness" on this forum:
The white yuppie community in Brixton/Stockwell/Clapham:
It's not a hypothetical question - it's not rocket science - it's fact! What is also fact is that many of the 'new' residents of Brixton are nowhere to be seen at the weekend, have enough money to use fee-paying schools, private health clubs, exclusive pre-school education. Many higher income earners have two or more cars (further clogging up the already limited car parking spaces). No stake in the community, no interest in much that is not affecting them personally.
Lambeth Driving Me Crazy:
Can anyone help? I am beginning to feel powerless in my community! I've lived in Brixton on and off all my life, I love the place and the people but I am increasingly 'powerless' here. How do ordinary people change the status quo?
The parking problem: I buy a permit, but have to park miles away from my house. Traffic wardens put tickets on my car even with the permit but I have to appeal (and then the appeals are refused).
Greedy property developers want to spoil my view and the light to my house with yet another block of flats. My schools choices are non-existent; I can't afford to buy the house I've lived in for 22 years because the discount now offered in London is only £18,000. The council is quick to send bailiff's to collect debt on parking and council tax - these bailiff's charge 600% interest on a £250 fine and treat us like rubbish. Bus lane cameras in Brixton are cited a few metres away from traffic lights - they effectively trap motorists (£100 fine).
Local community facilities are left by the council to dilapidate and then pulled down - new facilities emerge but the community can no longer afford to use them (Ferndale Community Sport Centre in Nursery Road is a case in point now under new 'Fusion' management the 5-a-side pitches cost £60 per hour!). The cycle begins again - look at Brixton Recreation Centre, seriously look around at the state of repair! Children within the community are seriously lacking in facilities - there are no Lambeth football pitches with proper changing rooms or stadia. Schools with the facilities needed were sold off to property developers a long time ago, there are no lambeth funded youth clubs - nor are there Lambeth people in positions of power within many of the existing sports related facilities.
Any and everything I need as a resident in Lambeth I have to fight for - nothing comes without endless correspondence and usually - screaming and shouting or getting legal advice and threatening - or time-consuming voluntary action. Endless stress and potential ill health to just live in a community. How can this be right and what can I do to change any of it!
Breakdown imminent
(Yeah, move!) Not possible!
End quote.
Yuppies etc - My personal approach to people is to speak as I find really, but no I don't especially like market-forces gentrification, extreme divisions in wealth, racists, snobs and conservative young professionals, sorry.
Problem is hatboy, you talk a lot of sense, even about gentrification, and then you go and spoil it with invective. Can you not see how appearing to equate 'yuppies'/ 'conservative young professionals' with snobs and racists might be tinsy bit offensive to, well, conservative young professionals? And it's hardly a scientific observation is it?
It will offend some and ring true with others. I don't mind that. :)
It will offend some and ring true with others. I don't mind that. :)
Yep. I just think 'racist' is not a label to be thrown around so liberally.
Well, lets be honest, nearly everyone has some racism in them. It's what you do about it that counts. But the reason why I mention it is that some of my black/mixed friends say they really notice that some of the "more conservative young professionals" (my words, others have different descriptions!) round here look at them suspiciously and treat them a bit second class. (Nothing new there really, but possibly newer in Brixton's recent history).
Yes, this might be uncomfortable to hear for some, but there are people who think that since Brixton has become more gentrified it has become more divided... and I'm one of them.
Hatboy said:
"Well, lets be honest, nearly everyone has some racism in them. It's what you do about it that counts. But the reason why I mention it is that some of my black/mixed friends say they really notice that some of the "more conservative young professionals" (my words, others have different descriptions!) round here look at them suspiciously and treat them a bit second class. (Nothing new there really, but possibly newer in Brixton's recent history).
Yes, this might be uncomfortable to hear for some, but there are people who think that since Brixton has become more gentrified it has become more divided.. and I'm one of them".
I suggest that you knock on a few doors on some Lambeth estates and listen to the views of some white working-class tenants.
I didn't know you'd stood for the Green's hatboy - so I now appreciate that you've tried...
I still can't stand your labels though - being labelled as anything creates division in the first place but unfortunately it's a system that appears to propagate through everything and encourages generalisation, and shitty stereotyping - christ, I've labelled you as a whingeing, posturing, tinkering storm in a teacup specialist but at least I've tried to make it ring true as opposed to just saying 'conservative young professionals' :rolleyes: - Well, if I guess being young and being a professional deserves to get me strung up by the Lambeth community then so be it. :mad:
For your information - I suffer from a great deal of the same problems as 'Lambeth Driving me Crazy' - I had awful Sinusitis for the first three weeks of this year but couldn't get an appointment at the Pavilion medical centre, I found it nigh on impossible to get through the bureacracy of buying a permit for my car, and have been busted by those wretched traffic lane camera's on more than one occassion - I struggle to pay the mortgage on my flat, and lament the way that people hassle you and piss on the street in the town centre. I sympathise with those who can't get affordable housing because of these 'bloody market forces' but if anything is going to sort out Brixton it's investment in the area from both the local community, and from outside. If that means that the area is going to gentrify then so be it - the way to maintain the local community is for the council to stop flogging off social housing - in places like the dreaded Clapham and Battersea (Shock HORROR :eek: ) there seems to be a far more peaceful coexistence of social housing and gentrification than there is in Brixton despite the inequalities - this so called holy grail of 'maintaining the community' AS IT STANDS is a crock of shit I reckon...
As for 'conservative young professionals' like myself not taking a stake in the community - I find this deeply offensive. Brixton is my home and I spend the vast majority of my time here, I've drunk (and got drunk) in the Albert, Eat at least once a week in the Noodle bar where the guy knows my order and had tea in the Phoenix most days when I didn't have to disappear off to work... I know plenty of people in the area and am not afraid to go anywhere and do anything - WHAT MORE MUST I DO not to be made to feel like an evil pawn of capitalism by people like you... Sheesh! I guess what I'm trying to say is that you should try and accept the new face of the community without dismissing it out of hand in the way that you and many others have done, be it on these boards or in snide little conversations with the 'in crowd' down the pub....
Anyway - I'm sorry this has degenerated into some sort of slanging match... I did come on here to vent some frustration after not posting for near on a year after seeing all this stuff that was BLATANTLY offensive, and was also shocked and appalled by the lack of progress at LJ which in my opinion would be a great area if only it were given half a chance.
Mr BC said: "I suggest that you knock on a few doors on some Lambeth estates and listen to the views of some white working-class tenants".
Why? Is that how to talk to "the public" Mr Councillor? I just talk to any old person. And I also know what I feel, I'm not looking in from outside. Lots of people are gonna agree with me about divisions in wealth in Brixton which impact both on race and class anyway.
Domski and Hendo - don't worry about it, you're not accountable to me. You know if you're nice or not. I didn't say "conservative young professionals like you", but you seem to have decided the description is you yourself Domski.
:) ;)
Never been in an "in crowd" btw.
Anyway, yeah I totally agree about LJ. I wish they'd get on with it now.
"....Clapham and Battersea (Shock HORROR ) there seems to be a far more peaceful co-existence of social housing and gentrification than there is in Brixton despite the inequalities."
My impression is that Battersea is so divided the posh people don't even see, let alone talk to the people on the big estates.
"if anything is going to sort out Brixton it's investment in the area from both the local community, and from outside. If that means that the area is going to gentrify then so be it".
So "gentrification" is the negative thing that comes with the positive of outside investment is it? Then we agree on that. What I'm arguing against is not change or investment, both are good. What I don't like are the "improvements" that only cater for the monied: such as expensive, bland bars and, as previously mentioned, the revamp of Ferndale Sports Centre, which sounds good until you realise it's inaccessible to many because all the prices have gone up loads. While simultaneously things that really matter, like affordable housing and genuinely accessible youth facilites are diminishing.
The clean-up of some of the pubs is about forcing conformity too IMO.
:)
Stobart Stopper
13-02-2004, 19:02
Yes, this might be uncomfortable to hear for some, but there are people who think that since Brixton has become more gentrified it has become more divided... and I'm one of them.
And the same goes for Hackney, Leyton and Walthamstow.
So "gentrification" is the negative thing that comes with the positive of outside investment is it? Then we agree on that. What I'm arguing against is not change or investment, both are good. What I don't like are the "improvements" that only cater for the monied: such as expensive, bland bars and, as previously mentioned, the revamp of Ferndale Sports Centre, which sounds good until you realise it's inaccessible to many because all the prices have gone up loads. While simultaneously things that really matter, like affordable housing and genuinely accessible youth facilites are diminishing.
The clean-up of some of the pubs is about forcing conformity too IMO.
Yup, totally agree Hatboy. I'm not against change either, but change has to cater for all classes in Lambeth and unfortunately it's not. As you rightly pointed out the Ferndale Sports Centre is a prime example, as are the bland bars.
I made the statement about "long-term lambeth residents, who may not have high powered city jobs" having less social choices a while back in the thread about Atlantic66 and I will stick by what I said. All these new developments happening in Brixton are catering for one class only and it bloody stinks
And lets be honest, the clean up of pubs tend to be the ones that are frequented by the old skool caribbean community.
Brixton Hatter
16-02-2004, 13:30
For your information - I suffer from a great deal of the same problems as 'Lambeth Driving me Crazy'.....and have been busted by those wretched traffic lane camera's on more than one occassion - I struggle to pay the mortgage on my flat........
Some good points in your post Domski - though the two "problems" that I've highlighted above don't really compare to some of the other problems experienced by people in Lambeth as a result of gentrification
:)
Some good points in your post Domski - though the two "problems" that I've highlighted above don't really compare to some of the other problems experienced by people in Lambeth as a result of gentrification
:)
BH - I was replying directly to HB's post 'Lambeth Driving Me Crazy'... I appreciate those problems have nothing to do with Gentrification but DO have everything to do with living in Lambeth...
So far problems that have arisen as a result of gentrification raised on THIS thread have been (I apologise again if I haven't read up as much on this subject as a lot of other posters)
1. People not being able to afford to buy their council houses because the applicable discount is too low
2. The new Brixton recreation centre being unaffordable to 'normal' people
3. The systematic closure and marginalisation of many of Brixton's old haunts
4. A lack of new establishments to replace these that cater for 'normal' people
I'm sure there are many more that people are ready to point out - but to answer these in turn...
1. Is not a problem of Gentrification - those who oppose 'gentrification' would never (and should never) support the right to allow social housing to be bought... I personally think that the universal application of this priniciple is wrong and that 'right to buy' is/was a good thing, BUT, in areas with chronic shortages of social and affordable housing (how to measure 'a shortage' would be difficult though, but there are plenty of local government people who could mull over it in triplicate), selling off housing stock is NOT the correct thing to do... however, complaining that you can't afford to buy your house IF you are a person who opposes gentrification is pretty hypocritical IMO.
2. Bollocks - The prices may have gone up but the place is always rammed and NOT with 'conservative young proffessionals' (Sorry LOL!)... just because people can't afford it doesn't mean that the rest of the community isn't benefiting from the improvements... what people are complaining about here is not having the right to use the centre for the unbelievably cheap knock down subsidised prices that there used to be - this is altogether different from it becoming 'exclusive' to certain sections of the community... I'm sorry but that centre wasn't built for nothing and people, christ, even the government have to recoup their investment somehow :rolleyes:
3. This is massively overblown, and some of the older 'landmarks' that have been shutdown (Cooltan, GM, Brady's, Duke of Wellington (Is that right?) etc) were shut down despite obviously providing some memorable and generally wicked nights at some point turned into pretty dodgy and dangerous places at others... and I'm sorry, I'm no anarchist, and firmly believe that serious drugdealing, 24 hour parties and the occasional gunfight mean that enough sometimes IS enough - if the owners, occupiers or locals can't keep these places under control something has got to be done and if closure is the way forward then so be it...
4. I agree with this, I'd like some more down to earth places and a couple of proper pubs, but I'm afraid the movement with the times governs this - not necessarily gentrification, more fashions and trends, and also, economic sense does tend to rule many of todays investment decisions - that said, if this massive underswell of local support exists, why in the hell does a market not exist... where is the support for them... or is it too late... I'm not sure it is actually - it's just up to someone with enough sense to try and harness this 'support' rather than pissing money up the wall the wrong way and opening a shop that only sells chakra stylee goods then no-one buys :p ;)
Running out of steam a bit here, BUT, in answer to the some other points
'The clean-up of some of the pubs is about forcing conformity too IMO'
and
'And lets be honest, the clean up of pubs tend to be the ones that are frequented by the old skool caribbean community'
This is a damn shame - BUT why the fuck is it happening? I think it's about time the old skool caribbean community stood up to the bloody crack dealers and gun toters who have ruined many caribbean pubs AND STOP blaming the shutting down of them on some sort of bullshit institutional racism... one thing (takeover by dealers) happens before the other (shutdown by the authorities) and NOT the other way around. I'm sure it's not easy to take on the gangs when they're taking over your pub etc, BUT, it's at time's like these when the authorities and the community need to be asked for HELP - unfortunately, there appears to be too much mistrust of 'the authorities' by the old skool caribbean community to do this in many cases. I really hope that this isn't taken the wrong way, because I would be very dissapointed to be labelled a racist.
Anyway, there's loads of good stuff that could happen in Brixton - I wish people would stop moaning about gentrification, marginalisation etc... and let things happen rather than assume there's some sort of sinister plot to undermine the 'incumbent communities'.... phew...
Agree with parts, disagree with other parts. And "Lambeth Driving Me Crazy" was quoting "Reubeness" not my words. Thing is Domski, you'll say that on one hand you haven't looked deeply into all this (you've said you are new to Brixton as well) and then on the other hand you say things like you "firmly believe that serious drugdealing, 24 hour parties and the occasional gunfight mean that enough sometimes IS enough".
So you firmly believe things you confess to knowing little about. Your posts are all muddled-up. For instance "drug-dealing" - are you talkng about a little weed or a full-on crack house, not the same atall? And you connect gun crime (which is of course very serious) and the squat party scene when there is usually no connection.
"I wish people would stop moaning about gentrification, marginalisation etc... and let things happen."
Yes, lets just lie down and accept everything no question. Like they did in Notting Hill. :rolleyes:
Brixton Hatter
17-02-2004, 17:31
BH - I was replying directly to HB's post 'Lambeth Driving Me Crazy'... I appreciate those problems have nothing to do with Gentrification but DO have everything to do with living in Lambeth...
Hmm, point taken, but I think the fact that you've "been busted by those wretched speed cameras" is more a function of your illegal driving, than of your living in Lambeth.
:)
Anyway, there's loads of good stuff that could happen in Brixton - I wish people would stop moaning about gentrification, marginalisation etc... and let things happen rather than assume there's some sort of sinister plot to undermine the 'incumbent communities'.... phew...
You're right, there's no "sinister plot to undermine the 'incumbent communities'" but there's the capitalist system we live in, market forces, the forces of gentrification - these will all have an effect unless you do something about them.
It actually makes me rather angry that you wished people would "stop moaning" about gentrification and "let things happen". If that were the case, Brixton would be a bland, soulless, generic London highstreet/town cente with little to distinguish it from Clapham/Notting Hill/Battersea/ or anywhere else. If people didn't moan/object, they would have bars next to their bedroom windows pumping out music all night. If people didn't moan/object we could have a bloody 6 lane motorway running through the centre of Brixton. :rolleyes: It's not a case of "just letting things happen".
Finally - on the subject of the sports centre - I use it myself and the footy is actually £45 for Lambeth residents, not £60 as stated previously. It is a really good facility and well used by local clubs etc. It's still rather expensive comparatively but it is a fantastic facility used by the community.
"If people didn't moan/object we could have a bloody 6 lane motorway running through the centre of Brixton."
This is actually not an exaggeration Domski. The squatters of Villa Rd (amongst other protestors/residents) were a part of the reason why Brixton is not now another Elephant & Castle.
See these:
http://www.squat.freeserve.co.uk/story/ch12.htm
http://www.urban75.org/brixton/features/barrier1.html
OK Hatboy - I admit it, because you now 'suspect' that I'm being inconsistent I should not be listened too... fair enough... actually, hang on I've changed my mind - I LIVE in Brixton, I used to use U75 a lot until I got fed up with it, I check back here a bit to find out what's going on but I don't pore over the detail of every thread as you probably do, lord knows this discussion has probably happened before - which is why I try and qualify my statements by saying 'I don't know what's been discussed' not 'I don't know'... I try and back everything up I say with as much valid argument and fact as I can possibly think of - is that acceptable or not? :rolleyes:
As for the 'just lying down and accepting things' - rubbish - YOU KNOW that's not what I mean - I've explained earlier in this thread what pisses me off - i.e. the endless processes, the sub-committee rediscussions, the need to cater for absolutely every sectional interest no matter how bonkers it is... with particular regard to why NOTHING has happened in LJ... so sod your own crass generalisations like
'Yes, lets just lie down and accept everything no question. Like they did in Notting Hill.' :rolleyes: Yes, very droll... :rolleyes: If you think that's what I mean then you've misjudged these posts - you really have. Same goes for you BH.
Anyway - lets try not to let this get too personal... I do apologise for my digs at you Hatboy, but you strike me as the sort of guy who can deal with some banter, especially from the likes of people like me.
Yeah, no worries. :)
But I think you should perhaps think about blaming the council, and government even, for some of the delaying of decent projects and so on. And the agenda of some parts of the media to portray Brixton as a very dangerous place. It's likely that some investors steer clear of Brixton because of their ignorance about the people who live here and negative publicity of the area. It's not really right to lay the blame on people who care about their neighbourhood and really do try and intervene in things from the point of view of parity and fairness or, in the case of buildings, good design.
It's good that people here show time and again in both big and small ways that they don't want to be trampled on by authority, and nowadays, pure money interests.
:)
"the need to cater for absolutely every sectional interest no matter how bonkers it is"
Well, 1) One person's "bonkers" are another person's beliefs. Depends what you cal bonkers. All animals are equal but some are more equal than others eh? ;)
2) The problem is not the attempt by the council to actually listen to the people of Lambeth. The problem is how efficiently and fairly they are able to do this. And whether they are sincere in this desire and do act on it.
Going back to the LJ problems. The developer has his planning permission for both pubs (Green Man with provision for surgery below, Warrior as traditional pub with flats above) if he wants it. To blame any further delay on locals' concerns about the projects would be untrue. That's in the past. It's down to the developer to get on with it now.
:)
Brixton Hatter
18-02-2004, 13:09
...If you think that's what I mean then you've misjudged these posts - you really have. Same goes for you BH....Anyway - lets try not to let this get too personal...
I'm sorry if my posts have got your back up Domski - I don't do personal slanging matches on u75 - but I was merely trying to make a few points that you appeared not to be aware of. You're right to voice your frustrations about LJ here - and now, between us all, we have a clearer picture of what is going on.
This is a damn shame - BUT why the fuck is it happening? I think it's about time the old skool caribbean community stood up to the bloody crack dealers and gun toters who have ruined many caribbean pubs AND STOP blaming the shutting down of them on some sort of bullshit institutional racism... one thing (takeover by dealers) happens before the other (shutdown by the authorities) and NOT the other way around. I'm sure it's not easy to take on the gangs when they're taking over your pub etc, BUT, it's at time's like these when the authorities and the community need to be asked for HELP - unfortunately, there appears to be too much mistrust of 'the authorities' by the old skool caribbean community to do this in many cases. I really hope that this isn't taken the wrong way, because I would be very dissapointed to be labelled a racist.
Yeah all those Caribbean boozers are regurlarly frequented by those Nasty Yardie Chaps who go around shooting everyone in sight! and deal crack and heroin to all the old skool Caribbean Community :rolleyes:
FFS Every pub has a dodgy character in it, I just think the Caribbean pubs have been targeted because............well take my thoughts anyway you want to
A lot of these trendy "style" bars/clubs have drug dealers in them too! They're rife with people popping pills and snorting the "white powder" at the weekends.
Make what you want of it
Don't hold back CK1977 - I welcome your comments. Your understanding and comments might help attract other more aware people to these boards.
:)
Planning permissions for the two pubs at LJ are now both granted. The Warrior - flats with traditional pub below, Green Man - flats with space for surgery/medical centre below.
Any further criticisms and comments regarding delays should be addressed to the developer, Briarpath Properties.
Planning permissions for the two pubs at LJ are now both granted. The Warrior - flats with traditional pub below, Green Man - flats with space for surgery/medical centre below.
Any further criticisms and comments regarding delays should be addressed to the developer, Briarpath Properties.
Oh well, that's good news :) And not before time - I wonder what you would have said if the developer had gone bankrupt or decided to sell up though - this loop would have had to have been gone through all over again... anyway, that's not happened so it's moot.
As for CK1977's comments, all I can say is :rolleyes:
I never implied that 'Caribbean boozers are regurlarly frequented by those Nasty Yardie Chaps who go around shooting everyone in sight! and deal crack and heroin to all the old skool Caribbean Community' - what a ridiculous statement.
The two Caribbean pubs I know of that have been shut down, The GM and The Duke of Wellington on Acre Lane (still not sure if I've got the name right on this one) were shut down for good reason - the GM, because like it or not, it had become a focal point for class A drug dealing and local community intimidation in LJ, and the Duke of Wellington because of shootings on MORE than one occassion. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but those are both pretty good reasons for shutting them down are they not?
As for targetting these pubs - if as you say, they are being unfairly targetted for racist reasons, then you're absolutely right, THAT IS WRONG. If however, they just so happen to be where illegal and intimidatory things are happening, then it's right for them to be targetted. Like I said before, it seems all too easy for critics of the 'alleged targeting' of Caribbean boozers to cry 'racist' first rather than to examine all the issues.
As for drug dealing itself, I don't really care as long as it's done in a 'non damaging' way (I'm for wholesale drug legalisation and regulation) - by this I mean, non pushing, non threatening, non gang style (although I do appreciate its often the nature of the bloody business, but that's another issue) which is why I couldn't give a toss about people who sell a few pills, weed etc in Style bars or for that matter in transportation convenience shops ;)
The point about the black pubs is that people seem quicker to judge. I think it's common knowledge that the Wellington and the Green Man ended up with serious problems that justified closure. But that doesn't have to mean permanent closure. Nor does it mean they were always problem pubs.
I might tell you again THE Green Man was a nice pub (a bit like the Angel) for years before recent problems.
All the info is here, re-read the thread anybody who has questions about this.
To re-iterate - if the Green Man renovation doesn't happen now, that's down to council/developer delays - not questions raised by me or other residents.
Frankly Domski - If you'd been here longer and thought about it more you'd be less inclined to slag off local people for bothering to care about their neighbourhood.
Domski said:
"which is why I couldn't give a toss about people who sell a few pills, weed etc in style bars"
The reason to give a toss is that sometimes the same standards of what you can get away with are not applied evenly to all types of venues by the authorities.
Frankly Domski - If you'd been here longer and thought about it more you'd be less inclined to slag off local people for bothering to care about their neighbourhood.
:rolleyes: Hatboy - with the greatest respect - I suggest you remove your head from up your arse. That is one of the most arrogant attitudes I think I've ever seen, and would have expected a lot better from you - do my posts indicate that I haven't thought about it at all? :rolleyes:
The reason to give a toss is that sometimes the same standards of what you can get away with are not applied evenly to all types of venues by the authorities.
I'm sorry but you can't get away with shootings and being the epicentre of class A drug dealing in LJ, I'd say shutting down in both cases was a pretty proportional response to the problem.
" Hatboy - with the greatest respect - I suggest you remove your head from up your arse. That is one of the most arrogant attitudes I think I've ever seen*, and would have expected a lot better from you - do my posts indicate that I haven't thought about it at all?"
It's not arrogant. I'm just miffed I've tried to influence something for the good, and all you're doing is fucking moaning. You don't understand that most of the problems in this are to do with council red-tape NOT interested residents.
And talking of heads up arses - you've clearly missed the detail of what me and CK1977 were saying about black pubs too.
*You've had a sheltered life. LOL. :)
" Hatboy - with the greatest respect - I suggest you remove your head from up your arse. That is one of the most arrogant attitudes I think I've ever seen*, and would have expected a lot better from you - do my posts indicate that I haven't thought about it at all?"
It's not arrogant. I'm just miffed I've tried to influence something for the good, and all you're doing is fucking moaning. You don't understand that most of the problems in this are to do with council red-tape NOT interested residents.
And talking of heads up arses - you've clearly missed the detail of what me and CK1977 were saying about black pubs too.
*You've had a sheltered life. LOL. :)
*OK - most arrogant attitude I've seen in relation to an argument like this :p I really don't think I've missed your or CK1977's point on black pubs and YOU calling ME a moaner makes me laugh :D
Anyway - bollocks to all this arguing - I think we've probabaly flogged that dead horse long enough :)
Yeah I agree! Seriously - I really hope it works out down there now. But honestly, honestly, whoever you are, there was very little delay added by people saying "can we have something useful where the GM pub was". Very little. It really was as explained; council and developer's delays, mostly Lambeth. And confusion about how to respond best to the crime situation there in the past.
:)
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