Independent Working Class Association in Brixton?

[IntoStella]

[Link to Independent Working Class Association (http://www.iwca.info/) website]

OK. Here is the gist so far of the discussion about setting up an IWCA branch in Brixton, from the fireworks thread.
Thanks:
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Posted by poster342002 on 08-10-2003 03:56 PM:
The IWCA stands for "Independant Working Class Association". In a nutshell, it's aims and policies can be summed up in it's motto "Working Class Rule in Working Class Areas", but you can read up on what they've been involved in lately by dipping into the UK Politics forum - where there are a number of threads about them. In particular you may want to check out the thread titled: Dealing With Antisocial Behaviour; Blackbird Leys Style".
In the main, the IWCA involve local working class residents organising and campaigning for improvements to local areas.
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Posted by IntoStella on 08-10-2003 04:05 PM:
Oh yeah! I remember now. Hatboy posted up a link to Islington IWCA's brilliant anti-gentrification website. Is there a branch round here? Such a group should certainly be getting involved in the talks over the secondary school proposal, not to mention social housing sell-offs and the like.
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Posted by poster342002 on 08-10-2003 04:09 PM:
quote:
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Is there a branch round here?
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Alas, I don't think there is. There really should be, though - Brixton's crying out for some kind of grassroots movement to get involved in such issues as you mention, along with all the various other problems Brixtonites face on a daily basis (see threads passim on tube station, litter, supermarkets, crack, anti-social behaviour etc etc).
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Posted by editor on 08-10-2003 04:29 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by poster342002
In the main, the IWCA involve local working class residents organising and campaigning for improvements to local areas.
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So would Brixton middle class/no class concerned residents have to stay at home then?
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Posted by IntoStella on 08-10-2003 04:31 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by poster342002
Alas, I don't think there is. There really should be, though - Brixton's crying out for some kind of grassroots movement to get involved in such issues as you mention, along with all the various other problems Brixtonites face on a daily basis (see threads passim on tube station, litter, supermarkets, crack, anti-social behaviour etc etc).
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You're really on to something here, p342. We really should be setting one up.
Dunno if they'd have me though. While I grew up supported entirely by primary industries -- fishing and farming -- which theoretically makes me prolier than almost anyone, my mother also had a BF who insisted on making me tawk prop'ah through many years of drilling, so they would probably think I was a very bad imposter.
An IWCA branch would effectively avoid the problems that Gramsci and others have encountered, namely that if you mention socialism or especially Marxism, people back away, fast, or attack you. Now I think Gramcsi is actually 100 per cent right, but it is a problem when trying to involve local working class people. The IWCA are careful not to adopt the socialist mantle, presumably for that very reason, while still being able to talk freely about class without attracting the usual flak. Clever stuff.
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Posted by IntoStella on 08-10-2003 04:34 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by editor
So would Brixton middle class/no class concerned residents have to stay at home then?
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No, far from it. [Have a look at the website FAQ]. They are trying to do something different politically. What is the alternative? The status quo.
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Posted by Mrs Magpie on 08-10-2003 04:37 PM:
IWCA
Would they accept very rapid downward mobility over the last three generations?------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by IntoStella on 08-10-2003 04:39 PM:
LOL!
I'm sure they would love you.
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Posted by Mrs Magpie on 08-10-2003 04:45 PM:
actually with the bombardment by fireworks being chucked at people round here I might become involuntarily upwardly mobile again........
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Posted by Justin on 08-10-2003 04:45 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by IntoStella
An IWCA branch would effectively avoid the problems that Gramsci and others have encountered, namely that if you mention socialism or especially Marxism, people back away, fast, or attack you.
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Actually I don't really think this is true. In my experience, people who are most interested in their community, or in trades unionism, or what you will, are those who are also most curious about Marxism or socialist politics. They're not, on the whole, interested in Materialism and Empiro-Criticism and they're not attracted by people who hate each other more than they hate the Romans, but they are interested in people who have something interesting to say - because with an awareness that things may be changed in some way or another there often comes a growing confidence in yourself and your own capacity. Previously you peeked at many things but never understood them and never had the confidence to ask about them, and at some point, you start asking. For the same reason, the same people often become interested, sometimes quite late in life, in literature, in education, in art.

[IntoStella]

Posted by editor on 08-10-2003 04:59 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by IntoStella
No, far from it. [Have a look at the website FAQ]. It's interesting. They are trying to do something different politically. What is the alternative? The status quo.
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There was a serious point in my flippant comment: banging on about 'working class' may deter an awful lot of people who aren't interested in being defined by such a label, regardless of their financial/social status.
Others may object to the militant sounding, "working class rule", while some may thin it some kind of archaic throwback to the cloth cap, whippet-racing, pigeon fancying, table-thumping politics of the 70s.
After all, it takes an awful lot of reading to get through ICWA's own defintinion of 'working class'...
Not saying that I necessarily think that, of course, but I reckon a lot might be put off by such labelling.
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Posted by poster342002 on 08-10-2003 05:05 PM:
editor,
quote:
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There was a serious point in my flippant comment: banging on about 'working class' may deter an awful lot of people who aren't interested in being defined by such a label, regardless of their financial/social status.
Others may object to the militant sounding, "working class rule", while some may thin it some kind of archaic throwback to the cloth cap, whippet-racing, pigeon fancying, table-thumping politics of the 70s.
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So far, this does not appear to have occured in areas where the IWCA has been active. They've certainly avoided the pitfalls that, say, the SWP and Socialist Alliance have become mired in for example.
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Posted by hatboy on 08-10-2003 05:11 PM:
This name, Independent Working Class Association, would alienate people I think. It sounds worthy and a bit humourless, like the SWP does. Also alot of good people either aren't, or don't define themselves as working class. I'd say the phrases "working class", "middle-class" etc are out of date now. Of course class still exists and people get shat on from above, but I reckon if you wanted to start a Brixton For The People organisation you could come up with a better name than that.
I think the Brixton Area Forum will soon be more independent, I'm getting more involved in that.
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Posted by TopCat on 08-10-2003 05:13 PM:
If people are classless now how come the middle class run most things for ther most money?
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Posted by IntoStella on 08-10-2003 05:15 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by Justin
Actually I don't really think this is true. In my experience, people who are most interested in their community, or in trades unionism, or what you will, are those who are also most curious about Marxism or socialist politics. They're not, on the whole, interested in Materialism and Empiro-Criticism and they're not attracted by people who hate each other more than they hate the Romans, but they are interested in people who have something interesting to say - because with an awareness that things may be changed in some way or another there often comes a growing confidence in yourself and your own capacity. Previously you peeked at many things but never understood them and never had the confidence to ask about them, and at some point, you start asking. For the same reason, the same people often become interested, sometimes quite late in life, in literature, in education, in art.
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Justin,
I take your point, and perhaps it is short-termist folly to try to involve working class people in a grassroots political movement without working through the theory, but when I see the kind of fuck-ups that are being perpetrated in our community it greatly frustrates me that a huge base of local people who are deeply concerned about what is going on feel too alienated to speak up or otherwise become involved. It would, unfortunately, take a very long time indeed to persuade them to follow the journey of political discovery that you describe.
Besides, whatever it might call itself so as not to frighten the horses, I think the IWCA is, in practice, socialist, but then I don't see being a socialist as necessarily involving compulsory attendance of Marx 101 study groups.
I'm only going on early impressions. I want to find out a lot more about these people and what work existing branches are actually undertaking in communities.
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Posted by editor on 08-10-2003 05:19 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by TopCat
If people are classless now how come the middle class run most things for ther most money?
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Err, he was referring to how people define themselves personally.
Haven't you ever heard of working class millionaires? Haven't you ever heard of a boss declaring himself working class? Haven't you ever heard of people on shitty estates and low incomes calling themselves middle class?
How do you define working class?
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Posted by hatboy on 08-10-2003 05:22 PM: I didn't say people are classless myself. I quite like alot of the talk on the IWCA website, but I do think that the name sounds dated and could be something else, which would describe all types of everyday people who want to change things to make them fairer.
Now what could that be?
Anyway, anyone gonna help me stop the Green Man getting turned into flats? (See Green Man thread).
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Posted by poster342002 on 08-10-2003 05:27 PM: I think the last thing the IWCA wants to get bogged down with right now is a long, drawn-out name changing process when there's all that other work they're trying to do!
Seriously, perhaps we should have a seperate thread ("Brixton IWCA"?) about all this so that this thread can continue the fireworks discussion?
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Posted by IntoStella on 08-10-2003 05:29 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by hatboy
This name, Independent Working Class Association, would alienate people I think. It sounds worthy and a bit humourless, like the SWP does.
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You can't blimming win! Why not call it the Fluffy Kitten Association?
quote:
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Also alot of good people either aren't, or don't define themselves as working class. I'd say the phrases "working class", "middle-class" etc are out of date now.
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No they aren't. Almost everything is out of date to you, you cutting edge trendsetter you, but not to a hell of a lot of other people, for whom class (not necessarily working) is a significant part of their identity.
quote:
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...I think the Brixton Area Forum will soon be more independent, I'm getting more involved in that.
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Fine, but the Brixton Area forum is, in practice, a place for people to sound off and then be (more often than not) ignored by the council; it's not a grassroots local movement. Not the same thing at all.------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by pooka on 08-10-2003 05:31 PM:
Ah, the class thing again.
In areas like ours you'd be hard pressed to throw down a pocket handerchief and not encompass just about every socio-demographic going. It's coalitions of interest groups around specific issues that are most likely to work, rather than separatists cliques.
I know several people who's politics are undoubtedly old-school socialists, but they are influential in local forums because they stand up and say (eg) "this proposal will not meet the needs of some of the least engaged and disadvantaged members of our community" rather than "this is another example of the hegonomy of the petit-bourgeois as so tellingly deconstructed in Jacques de Matante's analysis of post-Marxian semiotic iconograhies"
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[IntoStella]

Posted by IntoStella on 08-10-2003 05:34 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by pooka
I know several people who's politics are undoubtedly old-school socialists, but they are influential in local forums because they stand up and say (eg) "this porposal will not meet the needs of some of the least engaged and disadvantaged members of our community" rather than "this is another example of the hegonomy of the petit-bourgeois as so telling deconstructed in Jacques de Matante's analysis of post-Marxian semiotic iconograhies"
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...Which is exactly, AFAICS, what the IWCA is all about.
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Posted by poster342002 on 08-10-2003 05:36 PM:
IntoStella said:
quote:
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...Which is exactly, AFAICS, what the IWCA is all about.
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Precisely. The IWCA has gone to great care to avoid falling into the usual traps and dead-ends which have bedevilled so much of the left. Successfully so far, too, IMO.
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Posted by hatboy on 08-10-2003 05:42 PM: poster said:
"Precisely. The IWCA has gone to great care to avoid falling into the usual traps and dead-ends which have bedevilled so much of the left. Successfully so far, too, IMO."
Except in their name, unfortunately.
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Posted by IntoStella on 08-10-2003 05:43 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by editor
How do you define working class?
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Ask Justin! Seriously, taking, for example, Moorlands estate, would you say it wasn't predominantly working class? If not, what is it? And a lot of people on that estate -- who would call themselves working class -- are extremely concerned about the secondary school plan fiasco, but they do not feel represented by any particular local group, especially not, unfortunately, by the chair of their TA. For a multitude of reasons, they would not work with a ''socialist'' group on the issue. But they might well work with a non politically aligned group representing the interests of local working class people.

Ed said:
quote:
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Haven't you ever heard of working class millionaires? Haven't you ever heard of a boss declaring himself working class? Haven't you ever heard of people on shitty estates and low incomes calling themselves middle class?
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Well, there are always exceptions -- a very tiny minority of exceptions -- but that doesn't in itself prove or disprove anything. No one said working class people never get rich (one of Julie Burchill's fave themes). No one said some people don't have Hyacinth Bucketish pretensions. A ''boss'' might well be working class, or might claim to be working class. What does that prove? ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by TopCat on 08-10-2003 05:51 PM: IntoStella, where would it end? I know of loads of incompetant middle class people who have cushy jobs running poorly organised services for working class people . If they were disuaded from doing so how would they eat?
Let them eat cake?
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Posted by editor on 08-10-2003 05:53 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by IntoStella
Seriously, take, for example, Moorlands estate, would you say it wasn't predominantly working class? If not, what is it?
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Poor, predominately, but that doesn't equate to everyone here thinking of themselves as working class.
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Posted by hatboy on 08-10-2003 05:53 PM: Into said:
"Seriously, take, for example, Moorlands estate, would you say it wasn't predominantly working class? If not, what is it? And a lot of people on that estate -- who would call themselves working class -- are extremely concerned about the secondary school plan fiasco, but they do not feel represented by any particular local group, especially not, unfortunately, by the chair of their TA. For a multitude of reasons, they would not work with a ''socialist'' group on the issue. But they might well work with a non politically aligned group representing the interests of local working class people."
I agree with all of that, except that, as I said, the problem with the IWCA is that the name makes it sound as partisan as anything else. Also, Into, we both know someone on that estate who is great in community action stuff, but by his/her own definition, not working class.
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Posted by pooka on 08-10-2003 05:53 PM: poster said:
"Precisely. The IWCA has gone to great care to avoid falling into the usual traps and dead-ends which have bedevilled so much of the left. Successfully so far, too, IMO."
hatboy said:
"Except in the name".
Exactly. Stuff posted on the Politics Forum about the IWCA speaks well for it - anything that galvanises people off their arses
to address local issues is a good thing.
But defining itself on class terms is just a tad exclusive - not least when a good proportion of folks don't self identify in class terms. As soon as someone asks "So who are the working class?" you're into relationships with the means of production before you can say "On yer Marx!"
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Posted by editor on 08-10-2003 05:54 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by IntoStella
A ''boss'' might well be working class, or might claim to be working class. What does that prove?
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Just how much things have changed, I would have thought.
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Posted by IntoStella on 08-10-2003 05:56 PM:

Hatboy
You have already said you agree with a lot of what the IWCA is saying and doing, but you don't like its name. Is that any reason not to support it? I'm sure they thought about the name long and hard and considered all the pitfalls before they chose it. Anyway, bugger public-image-obsession and spin. That's for Bliar. I saw a similar thing the other day -- a woman at the STWC meeting saying she thought they should change their name. Too late! Look at the actions and the issues. They are what matter, not the superficialities.
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Posted by hatboy on 08-10-2003 05:57 PM: Thanks Into, that makes sense. It has got the wrong name, but never mind. Thing is, I know what they're getting at, we all do I should think, but what would be a name that expressed it? "Working-class (the one's who give a shit) and other non-class-identified, er, people who give a shit"
Snappy huh?
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Posted by poster342002 on 08-10-2003 06:00 PM: I can say one thing, though. Were a first meeting of a Brixton IWCA (or whatever) to spend it's entire session bogged down with:
a) what it's name should be or
b) what the working class exactly was
when there are so many important issues facing Brixton, it'd fall flat on it's face from day 1. A chance to build a Brixton grassroots movement gone in a flash. No-one wants that ignominious fate.
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Posted by IntoStella on 08-10-2003 06:01 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by hatboy
we both know someone on that estate who is great in community action stuff, but by his/her own definition, not working class.
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OK, but as I said to Mike, a tiny minority. ( )
Mike, it depends on how you define a boss, doesn't it? If I was a supervisor in McDonalds I would technically be a boss. It is not unheard-of for a working class person to hold a senior job, but they are still very much a minority. The class struggle is not over, comrades!
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Posted by Mrs Magpie on 08-10-2003 06:04 PM:
The problem about name changes though is that it quite often confuses people....if people know of IWCA* and suddenly it becomes summat else then people get flummoxed.
*I hadn't heard of it before seeing it mentioned in the dreaded P&P, and I must admit I assumed it was a WRP or SWP type turgid talking shop socialist schism thang.........
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[IntoStella]

Posted by hatboy on 08-10-2003 06:04 PM:
"when there are so many important issues facing Brixton, it'd fall flat on it's face from day 1. A chance to build a Brixton grassroots movement gone in a flash. No-one wants that ignominious fate."
Well, call it "Brixton Grass Roots" then.
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Posted by poster342002 on 08-10-2003 06:06 PM: hatboy said:quote:
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Well, call it "Brixton Grass Roots" then.
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That would probably give the impression it was a cannabis-users appreciation group or something.
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Posted by IntoStella on 08-10-2003 06:06 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by TopCat
IntoStella, where would it end? I know of loads of incompetant middle class people who have cushy jobs running poorly organised services for working class people . If they were disuaded from doing so how would they eat? Let them eat cake?
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Perhaps we could solve that problem by getting the working class people to eat them?
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Posted by hatboy on 08-10-2003 06:08 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by poster342002
That would probably give the impression it was a cannabis-users appreciation group or something.
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Oh well I'll go to that then. Thanks, when is it again?
PS Poster, yes I know, it was a small cannabis-flavoured joke dear.
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Posted by Justin on 08-10-2003 07:08 PM: No offence, like, but there's something comical (or ironic, if you prefer) about people talking about all the mistakes the old left have made and then going on about what name to have. Or asking, rhetorically or otherwise, about who is what class and surely it's changed from the old days and so on. Which is odd because you could have got some good, well-reasoned and well-informed answers from people who apparently spend all their time at talking shops or discussing modes of consumption. Educate, agitate, organise, is what the old left did, and do - and the first of these is quite as necessary as the other two. Which is why the old left spend, a fair amount of time reading books. And writing them. Anybody, be they never so working class, could do a lot worse that start with Wages, Price and Profit, Wage Labour and Capital, Principles of Communism or even Ye Olde Communiste Manifestoe.
As for the IWCA - I think they're a good thing, on the whole, but I find them a little prickly, a little suspicious of outsiders and other leftists perhaps. Perhaps that's just my starting point though, as an educated socialist of middle-class origin?
Anyway, I'm off to the chess club. Marx played, you know. And so did Marcel Duchamp.
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Posted by IntoStella on 09-10-2003 12:37 PM:
[Apropos of IWCA debate on other thread]
quote:
The IWCA appears to be making a valiant effort to do things differently -- to involve local people without geting mired in socialist schisms. OK, some people might be frightened by the term ''working class'' but it differentiates them from the likes of predominantly middle class/small-c conservative residents associations which do not represent the interests of working class people.
It's ironic that many people love to moan that it's all so terrible and nothing is being done, yet when a possible alternative is suggested to the miserably failing status quo -- a fresh way of looking at how we can tackle local problems -- they immediately pick it to bits. Justin brought up the term ''a talking shop'' as used in a derogatory sense against left groups. But it is arguably far more of a negativist, racket-running 'talking shop' to moan about everything and yet dismiss out of hand new ways of tackling old problems. I was enthused by p342's post because while he has been known to complain a lot in the past, he is now proposing something positive, to which I say, bravo.
Yeah, Bob -- how do you do that? Did you make them with exciting coloured sparkly bits or just big bangs?
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Posted by Justin on 09-10-2003 01:06 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by IntoStella
The IWCA appears to be making a valiant effort to do things differently -- to involve local people without geting mired in socialist schisms.
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Hmm. Unfortunately "without getting mired in socialist schisms" appears to mean something like " we don't want anything to do with the rest of the left (except on our terms)". Which is not helpful.
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Posted by IntoStella on 09-10-2003 01:43 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by Justin
Hmm. Unfortunately "without getting mired in socialist schisms" appears to mean something like " we don't want anything to do with the rest of the left (except on our terms)". Which is not helpful.
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Well, they don't actually claim to be on the left. Disingenuously, perhaps. I don't know. It remains to be seen whether the IWCA can really get the hypothetical dyed-in-the wool lifelong socialist and his lifelong Sun-reading next door neighbour (mired in false consciousness, the poor chap ) working together on grassroots issues. Indeed, it does seem pretty unlikely, but it's an interesting and, surely, worthwhile experiment.
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Posted by Bob on 09-10-2003 01:57 PM:
Despite disagreement with the ideology I completely agree with the positive outlook that supports at least trying to change things rather than the easy route of cynically believing it's impossible to change anything.
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That's it. Phew.

Yes, it's a lot to wade through, but now it's here for anyone who is interested at least. Sorry about the lack of formatting -- and the loss of smilies which, unfortunately, makes some ironic remarks look serious. And I'm not doing this just to get my post count back up -- honest!

And if anyone doesn't like my editing -- tough!!
:D

[Anna Key]

Brilliant Intostella. Shame it's all ripped from context.

[IntoStella]

Hmmm. It's just about followable to a sufficiently dedicated observer. :)

So in a nutshell (I'm turning into K:eek::eek: again!!) would a Brixton IWCA branch be:
A damaging exercise in class warfare that would alienate people who don't consider themselves working class -- and anyway class is dead?
A highly commendable attempt to involve the politically silent mass of working class people, who normally feel unrepresented and suspicious of politics, in grassroots issues?
A doomed and foolish attempt to 'do' socialism without the requisite political theory -- and vending of newspapers ;)?
Often people who balk at using the term ''working class'' use ''poor" instead. it seems to be considered more ''politically correct". Are "poor" and "working class", for all practical purposes, the same thing? Is it insulting (or not) to refer to working class people as ''the poor"?

[hatboy]

Or D, "all of the above".

:D

[TopCat]

Class!:D

[Donna Ferentes]

Originally posted by IntoStella
Often people who balk at using the term ''working class'' use ''poor" instead. it seems to be considered more ''politically correct". Are "poor" and "working class", for all practical purposes, the same thing? No. Very much not. It's nt just a question of income, it's a question of collective organisation, which the poorest, tending to be unemployed or only employed intermittently.

[editor]

Originally posted by IntoStella
Are "poor" and "working class", for all practical purposes, the same thing? Is it insulting (or not) to refer to working class people as ''the poor"? People who refer to themselves as 'working class' often come from a wide range of backgrounds, incomes, wealth and status.

But even the ICWA takes half a page to describe what working class is supposed to be, which ably illustrates the confusion - how many people could be arsed to trawl through all that to see if they fit the necessary criteria?

[IntoStella]

If they can effectively define what it is to be working class in just half a page then I, for one, am very impressed. :)

I have added a link to the IWCA website at the top of the thread. After nearly linking to the Independent Window Cleaners' Association,
the International Wildfowl Carving Association and the Irish Wolfhound Club of America :o :D

[editor]

Originally posted by IntoStella
If they can effectively define what it is to be working class in just half a page then I, for one, am very impressed. :) Well, that's the problem - they don't. It's a very confusing read.

And I'm sure that some of my valleys-dwelling Cardiff City mates would judge some of the self-professed 'working class' folks of Brixton as noncy, middle class, arty-farty tossers... :D

[pooka]

IWCA - My concern about the name was not in some marketing "what colour should it be" sense, but rather in terms of the underlying class based philosophy it denotes. I'm not convinced that it has a clear relavence to sufficient numbers of people to seriously enhance local engagement.

I also think that we kid ourselves when we talk about "the community" as though it were a single, homogenous entity. A town like Brixton has lots of conmmunities, which identify themselves in diverse terms, many of them (eg age, ethnicity, location, housing, family structure, ideology etc) much more salient to individuals than class.

I stongly believe that at the end of the day, that local politics has to involve those groups sitting round the same table, not partitioning themselves off into their separate cells. For the moment, I do think the Forum set up has the best chance of achieving that, for all its faults.

An example.

Hatboy and I attended the Forum meeting on the Community Plan. Part of the meeting involved people spiltting into different groups, addressing different aspects of development. I joined the one on "Business/Local Economy". There were two late middle aged, very well turned out guys who own one or more shops on Atlantic Road. They may well be the sort of shops whose virtues are extolled on U75 when set against the corporate evils of Sainsbury's or MacDonalds. Their main beef was parking: they felt that their customers should be able to park outside their shops and not have to deal with parking restrictions.

The Forum has a Transport working group. I'm told it is packed with cyclists with just a lone motorist.

Are these conflicts more or less likely to be resolved, however messily, if people are in the same or different organisations?

Equally, there were a couple of local architects who now have their practice based in Hoxton. They floated that as a model for regeneration. A fairly lively regeneration/gentrification discussion ensued. Would it have been better if the contending arguements were safely isolated in hermetic, mono-thought cells?

[hatboy]

Ooh I like you. Spot on. :)

Pooka - community? Overlapping communities I think, yes. People are often more than one thing, so don't want to be in a box with one label on it.

[Sean]

Originally posted by Buzz sw9
In my experience with "local" campaigns, bring class in as an issue is divisive and politicises what in most cases isn't or needn't become a political issue.

To run a good and successful campaign in the main you need as broader knowledge base as possible and people with a vested interest in the outcome.

Local people with good local knowledge and often Architect’s, Solicitor’s, Account’s and other professionals who you could alienate with the term Working Class (and then have to spend more and more time trying to fund raise to get some money to pay for their advice that you could have got for nothing had you not used the words working and class)



Hmmm....I'd have to disagree. Sorry to cross the river and butt into your discussions about Brixton, but in our experience in East London, the solicitors, accountants and gentrification professionals have been part of the problem not the solution.

I don't know what the situation is in Brixton, but very few of the professionals who get involved round here (Hackney and Islington) live in the area (or if they do they own their property and don't share the same housing needs as the peopel they're designing estates for!). They tend to carry out their consultation exercises, do what they wanted to do in the first place (sell off teh local facilities for private , luxury flats etc) and then skidaddle out of the area, counting their wads.

Sorry to be simplictic and reductive but we haven't met a decent professional involved in regen round these parts for a long time...

[Donna Ferentes]

Originally posted by editor
But even the ICWA takes half a page to describe what working class is supposed to be, which ably illustrates the confusion - how many people could be arsed to trawl through all that to see if they fit the necessary criteria? Well, one would hope they wouldn't bother. Because the point is not to stick a label on yourself and say what class you are. That achieves nothing except a certain resentment of the "you're not from round here, are you?" type. The point is surely to observe that people who share a certain position not only share certain interests as well, but might well best advance those interests collectively, i.e. as a class.

Of course that's not all it is. The division of society manifests itself in all sorts of ways, in culture and accent and outlook, and we can look at class that way and learn a great deal about ourselves. But quite clearly, looking at any given individual tends to run up against the quirks of any individual life - and so you get people who, for instance, are professionally qualified and highly educated and have some of the poshest accents you'll ever hear in Brixton (or "even in Brixton", ho ho) but live on such a small income that they cannot even afford to rent a flat, are trade union members and consider themselves part of the working class. Real life's difficult like that.

[past caring]

poster, Anna, Into Stella, the lot of you :D

I'll maybe post something longer later. I've lurked (and occasionally posted-one of the drug dealing threads) on the Brixton forum for a while.

Most of the problems that have concerned you-Merrit, gentrification-and the nefarious uses regeneration money is put to, keeping day-time shops/community, preventing school and council house sell-offs, anti-social crime etc, are precisely the issues that the IWCA has been involved with in Hackney, Islington and elsewhere. I've lurked, in the first place, not because I've seen an opportunity for the IWCA-but because I live only around the corner in Camberwell-just by the green- and I socialise in Brixton a fair amount.

I'll quite happily debate stuff on this forum-but if you want to meet for a pint and a discussion, I'm up for that too. It's often easier to understand exactly where people are coming from face to face. And no pre-set agenda. I'm not going to pretend that we wouldn't want to encourage the development of an IWCA branch. But equally, we've helped other campaigning groups (against council house sell-offs in Islington, against the closure of the local swimming pool in Govanhill, Glasgow) without pre-conditions. ie the campaigns have gone ahead succesfully with our support, but not in our name.

In any case, as is inevitable when you post on these boards a lot, you end up feeling you know people a little and would welcome the opportunity to meet them face to face-and that holds true for those who form the more "hostile" end of the debate-hatboy, Mike, Justin etc.

So PM if you want (better go off and clear my box out-or am I being too sure of myself? ;) ). Anyway, Anna-I believe you already have my number?

[Donna Ferentes]

Hostile, me?

[past caring]

Didn't you notice the inverted commas mate? ;)

[Donna Ferentes]

Pre-coffee, I'm afraid.

[hipipol]

"Working Class' is an emotive phrase which will alienate some, as Buzz sw9 pointed out.
Perhaps rather than have a name which is a statement of the organisations roots, it should rather state its intent
As I haven't got a clue to what the intent of such a group would be I'll shut up again, but I do think if some kind of programme could be agreed a more inclusive name would evolve.

[Anna Key]

This obsession with the word "class" is funny. Only in Britain, particularly England, could it generate such heat. It reminds me of the Church of England's obsession with what, precisely, their vicars do with their genitalia.

Class is simple. It's either economic or cultural or both.

The IWCA's use of the word is economic:
Ultimately the core working class fall into two main categories: those whose work produces a direct profit for their employer (obviously by no means just blue-collar workers) and those engaged in supplementary occupations essential to the functioning of the economy who put in long hours for low pay. Most often these are the same people who most want change and so serve as the natural constituency of the IWCA.
Source (http://www.iwca.info/about/quesans.htm)

So there you have it. Not a mention of flat caps, dropped 'aiches or even whippets.

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by Buzz sw9
In my experience with "local" campaigns, bring class in as an issue is divisive and politicises what in most cases isn't or needn't become a political issue. How can you possibly have any sort of campaign on local issues which isn't political with a very big P? Please, try to name a pertinent example. To run a good and successful campaign in the main you need as broader knowledge base as possible and people with a vested interest in the outcome.Really? What about people who are motivated by a desire for social justice -- or don't you think such people exist? is everybody greedy and self-serving? Local people with good local knowledge and often Architect’s, Solicitor’s, Account’s and other professionals who you could alienate with the term Working ClassAs Sean said, they are generally part of the problem. A campaiging group cannot include parties who are actively working against its interests. Surely you can see that? It does sound very much like the kind of group I’d have joined in my late teens or early 20’s, but for today it all sounds a bit 1960’s and very Political with a big P. Which echoes that unpleasant adage, I can't remember it exactly, that says that you're stupid if you're not voting Tory by 30. The IWCA seems 1960’s but your quoted text above reads like something from an 18th Century novel, do people really still equate working class and poor as meaning the same? At least try to read things properly.* The quote was nothing to do with anything the IWCA said but was a question based on remarks about ''the poor'' posted on the previous thread. Personally, I reject the use of the the word ''poor'' when actually people mean ''working class''. It's a sort of political bowdlerisation and, as Anna key is fond of saying, it smacks of Victorian tweedy ladies inspecting the underwear of ''the poor'' to determine whether they are ''deserving'' or not. As you say, the terms are most certainly not interchangeable. Do people feel threatened by the term ''working class'' because it suggests a drive for self-determination that the poor old ''poor'', with their metaphorical begging bowls, lack? I just happen to be bothThen I suggest it's time to lose your phobia of politics, big P or not.

*That goes for you too, hatboy. :p We separated out this thread to keep you happy so be nice, all right? :)

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by past caring
Most of the problems that have concerned you-Merrit, gentrification-and the nefarious uses regeneration money is put to, keeping day-time shops/community, preventing school and council house sell-offs, anti-social crime etc, are precisely the issues that the IWCA has been involved with in Hackney, Islington and elsewhere. That's the way I see it, too. I'll quite happily debate stuff on this forum-but if you want to meet for a pint and a discussion, I'm up for that too. It's often easier to understand exactly where people are coming from face to face. And no pre-set agenda. Fantastic. I am very keen to do this. I'm not going to pretend that we wouldn't want to encourage the development of an IWCA branch. But equally, we've helped other campaigning groups (against council house sell-offs in Islington, against the closure of the local swimming pool in Govanhill, Glasgow) without pre-conditions. ie the campaigns have gone ahead succesfully with our support, but not in our name. Perhaps some people would find that latter part reassuring.

Past caring, have the IWCA branches in Hackney and Islington -- or elsewhere in the UK -- had the problems predicted here by some posters? Have local people shunned them because of the ''working class'' bit of their name? What sort of people are coming forward and getting involved? And have they got whippets down their trousers? ;) :D

[hatboy]

Into/buzzsw9 - A "vested interest" could well be a desire for social justice. Some would say that is the biggest vested interest of all.

Buzz said:

"Local people with good local knowledge and often Architect’s, Solicitor’s, Account’s and other professionals"

I took this to mean local people (which would include any type/class and within that a significant common desire for social justice) and professionals (architects, etc) also volunteeering from the local community with their specific skills.

I'm more comfortable with the above than people like ARUP and all their consulting, etc. Not totally slagging ARUP off. But without detailed local knowledge even great buildings/projects can go badly wrong.

[hatboy]

Into said:

"How can you possibly have any sort of campaign on local issues which isn't political with a very big P? Please, try to name a pertinent example."

Well, if you have to engage with the council then you engage with politics in some way. But that is sometimes incidental.

Look at the recent "Say no to crack and smack" campaign in Brixton. Of course politics influences government policies on drugs. But on a local level this campaign wasn't "Political". It was anti crack/smack. Simple as.

[past caring]

A little bit more from the same source quoted by Anna-it might help put some people's minds at rest;

"So clearly, the thinking behind the white-collar/blue-collar grading is deeply flawed, particularly when you see that bank clerks, nurses, and even teachers, who in the past would have been considered middle class, are today in terms of pay and conditions far nearer to those occupations that are considered firmly working class."

Moreover, the IWCA is an organisation of and for "the working class and its supporters", so even those who self-identify as "middle class" are not necessarily excluded from membership.

To my mind, the question is relatively simple-although not simplistic. As I said above, I've lurked in the Brixton thread a lot without posting-I've seen countless threads on Clifton Mansions, Rushcroft Road, the Merrit Empire, school closures, the undermining of the day-time economy, the building of gated "communities" and so on.

It's a bit like being in the boozer when someone bumps into you-the first time they do it, you might be inclined to believe the thing was an accident. After the tenth time, if you aren't already too pissed to notice, you become a little bit suspicious. It's either deliberate or the other person holds you in such contempt that they don't think it actually matters what they do to you.

Further argument against the coincidence theory is that this stuff is far from being limited to Brixton-it's happening in Southwark, in Islington, Hackney-across London and across the country in fact. It seems to me that every instance has something in common-the beneficiaries are those with power and wealth and the losers are those without.

I'll be totally up-front here. "Independent Working Class Association" does sound awkward-it doesn't exactly trip off the tongue. Neither does "working class rule in working class areas". But I suppose we were more concerned about being clear about our meaning and intent than necessarily sounding snappy.

What was Thatcher, 17 years of Tory rule and "no such thing as society" about? What is New Labour's "we're all middle class now" about? The Tories may have been up-front in their attack on the working class and New Labour might want to obfuscate it-the result is the same. I posted this on one of the threads in P&P

"the working class has been thorughly defeated over the previous two decades in the UK. So much so that it might even be said not to exist in political terms-it has been removed from virtually all public discourse. That not only means that the working class is ignored at a policy level, but also that it has lost its sense of itself-it doesn’t exist consciously as a class of and for itself. Of course, there are contradictions there-recent social surveys have found as much as 70% of the UK population identifying itself as “working class”-but the point is, such self identification, existing as it does in political isolation, carries no more weight than someone identifying themselves as a vegetarian or a flat earther-at present (for them) it carries no political consequence.

And this has consequences on the national and local level. If public policy ignores the working class-or seeks to brush it out of existence, it is, sure as eggs is eggs, an effective attack on the working class. And, without a working class that is self-conscious, those attacks meet only minimal resistance."

It says something about how succesful the "air-brushing out" of the working class has been that, even many of those involved in opposing the gentrification of Brixton and its consequences, even those without power and wealth themselves, refuse to see the process in class terms.

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by hatboy
Look at the recent "Say no to crack and smack" campaign in Brixton. Of course politics influences government policies on drugs. But on a local level this campaign wasn't "Political". It was anti crack/smack. Simple as. An interesting example. This police/council initiative involved putting up lots of colourful posters around Brixton extolling the noble sentiment ''NO ROOM FOR SMACK AND CRACK". Great. Woo. Brilliant. What everyone wants to see.

Meanwhile, the police and the council both know perfectly well that Somerleyton Road at night is full of dealers selling not just a bit of dope, as they did in CHL, but crack and heroin. Loads of the fucking stuff. You see them getting in and out of cars that drive round the block or make house deliveries. The place is full of desperate junkies trying to blag a fix. It is a thriving local industry!

For the police and LBL to be proclaiming that there is no room for smack and crack while allowing this to flourish is cynical in the extreme.

Would this be going on in Herne Hill? Most definitely not. It is allowed to continue in Somerleyton because the neighbours are council tenants (well, HA now, to be precise). They are predominantly working class and they are ignored.

That's politics all right. The sort of politics I, for one, would like to kick into touch.

[past caring]

Originally posted by hatboy
Well, if you have to engage with the council then you engage with politics in some way. But that is sometimes incidental.

Look at the recent "Say no to crack and smack" campaign in Brixton. Of course politics influences government policies on drugs. But on a local level this campaign wasn't "Political". It was anti crack/smack. Simple as.

I'd argue that it isn't "incidental". I posted this a couple of weeks back in the "Drug dealing at ****** Road" thread.

"But to the point-I don't know that this discussion can really be separated from the "Brixton Political Argument" one. I'm not saying it's a conscious conspiracy (though the Panthers took the view that it was in the States-drugs being deliberately introduced to undercut black militancy)-but at present the affect is the same. There is a tie in between the muggings and burglaries committed in order to feed crack habits, communities being too intimidated to confront violent dealers and a wider demoralisation that leads many to think they can't resist gentrification or work together to protect what's best about their communities."

So it depends how you view politics, doesn't it? At bottom, politics is about what kind of world we live in-but the world includes our local communities too. Thatcher's "no such thing as society" was political-it's what we're paying the price for now.

I've got a mate who is a caretaker on an estate in North London. Recently, an old bloke on the estate missed the entrance when he was trying to reverse his car into the car park-and he knocked down a big chunk of the wall. He was one of those ever so "proper" Windrush generation and was all for calling the council and confessing his crime. But my mate and a few other residents went out at night and re-built it.

A few of the local Herberts were taking the piss-basically he's a "mug" for clearing up other people's shit, for caring, for not making his living by doing something dodgy. That's an attitude that derives directly from "no such thing as society"-and all too often, the "doing something dodgy" isn't smuggling a few fags, but preying on those around you.

I'm sorry, it is political when that is seen by many kids as the lifestyle to aspire to. Here's a part of what the IWCA considers might be a solution-perhaps it can also help answer Stella's question about who gets involved?


http://www.bliwca.fsnet.co.uk/picket1.htm

[editor]

Originally posted by past caring
Moreover, the IWCA is an organisation of and for "the working class and its supporters", so even those who self-identify as "middle class" are not necessarily excluded from membership. But the name would surely make them feel that they are excluded.

In fact, some may feel positively intimidated by it.

PS I don't 'self identify' myself as any class - why should I let myself be labelled so easily?

[past caring]

Mike, I wouldn't presume to tell you how to think about yourself, or how to identify yourself. But I think I've explained why I believe that the effective removal of class from political discourse has had entirely negative results on what is now seen as "politics".

And I can see how some people might be put off by the mention of class or the working class-but "intimidated"? Why?

{confusion over who said what removed}

[pooka]

Into said:It is allowed to continue in Somerleyton because the neighbours are council tenants (well, HA now, to be precise). They are predominantly working class and they are ignored.

You made the same point on another thread, and I suggested you challenge the police directly over it - have you? Has the Moorlands Residents Association? (the chair of which now publicly sings the praises of the police's work in the area).

If you think people in middleclass areas get special treatment, then go and talk to the "gentry" of Josephine Avenue about their probelms with prostitution and crack.

If you wonder why Herne Hill might get a better policing response (and remember the people on Herne Hill have plenty of winges too), it's because they're organised and vocal. Not as an Independent MiddleClass Association, but as Herne Hill Forum, Friends of Brockwell Park, The Veldrome Campaign and so on, all of which have, would you believe, working class members!

past caring:

"But to the point-I don't know that this discussion can really be separated from the "Brixton Political Argument" one. I'm not saying it's a conscious conspiracy (though the Panthers took the view that it was in the States-drugs being deliberately introduced to undercut black militancy)-but at present the affect is the same. There is a tie in between the muggings and burglaries committed in order to feed crack habits, communities being too intimidated to confront violent dealers and a wider demoralisation that leads many to think they can't resist gentrification or work together to protect what's best about their communities."

As I've said before, I'm all for anything that get's people off their arses to do something about local issues and I'm not too concerned about people's motives, issue by issue - people can do the right thing for the wrong reasons.

But this quote pretty well illustrates why I wouldn't be queuing up to join the IWCA, although I'd be quite happy to work alongside them if the issue merits it. It says "start from a political analysis, then find somewhere to promolgate it" and the not so subtle "I'm not saying it's a conscious conspiracy but...............", is a classic.

Here's an interesting example around what constitutes political and to what extent issues can be delineated on class grounds: Stockwell Skatepark.

If the stock transfer of the Stockwell Estate goes ahead, it mat well include the Skatepark. The Estate will be owned and managed by a Trust, the board of which is made up of residents, in partnership with a Registered Social Landlord. Their model for development is new build to finance refurbishment of the older properties. The skateboard park, on the corner with extensive street frontage, will clearly be a prime asset. In class terms, which side would the IWCA be? (If you think that Moorlands must be "working class" cos it's an estate, then I suggest you take a walk around Stockwell Estate sometime).

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by pooka
If you think people in middleclass areas get special treatment, then go and talk to the "gentry" of Josephine Avenue about their probelms with prostitution and crack. So, presumably the good people of Josephine Ave HAVE complained loud and long to the police via the CPCG. And they are still suffering. Doesn't that reflect rather badly on the police/CPCG? If you wonder why Herne Hill might get a better policing response, it's because they're organised and vocal. Not as an Independent MiddleClass Association, but as Herne Hill Forum, Friends of Brockwell Park, The Veldrome Campaign and so on, all of which have, would you believe, working class members! I expect the IMCA in everything but name DOES have working class members, but then the US Republican party has black members. It doesn't mean for a minute that the interests of working class people are represented. Rather, as Sean says, they are airbrushed out. In class terms, which side would the IWCA be? Errr... haven't you answered your own question there?(If you think that Moorlands must be "working class" cos it's an estate, then I suggest you take a walk around Stockwell Estate sometime). Are you suggesting that to be working class necessarily means to live in crime-ridden, squalid conditions? If so, you are making some very, er, controversial assumptions. I suggest you make a proper visit to Moorlands if you honestly (surely, surely not) believe it is some nice, middle class enclave just because regeneration has largely succeeded there. Bloody hell! More airbrushing: give working class people social housing that is fit to live in and it means they're not working class any more?! :eek: :eek:

[hatboy]

Into said:

"Somerleyton Road at night is full of dealers selling not just a bit of dope, as they did in CHL, but crack and heroin."

If you think Coldharbour Lane has only been about cannabis (or worthless substitutes for cannabis) for the last few years you are mistaken.

Past said:

"It says something about how succesful the "air-brushing out" of the working class has been that, even many of those involved in opposing the gentrification of Brixton and its consequences, even those without power and wealth themselves, refuse to see the process in class terms."

No, I for one refuse to see the proces in class terms... ALONE.

Past said:

""the working class has been thorughly defeated over the previous two decades in the UK. So much so that it might even be said not to exist in political terms - it has been removed from virtually all public discourse. That not only means that the working class is ignored at a policy level, but also that it has lost its sense of itself - it doesn’t exist consciously as a class of and for itself. Of course, there are contradictions there - recent social surveys have found as much as 70% of the UK population identifying itself as “working class”- but the point is, such self identification, existing as it does in political isolation, carries no more weight than someone identifying themselves as a vegetarian or a flat earther - at present (for them) it carries no political consequence."

Where is that 70% figure from? Not sure about that. We need something new though. Many ordinary and poorer people don't feel any affinity with either of the big political parties now. I know I don't (not that I've ever felt any affinity with the Tories, but now Labour's gone all Islington too).

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by hatboy
If you think Coldharbour Lane has only been about cannabis (or worthless substitutes for cannabis) for the last few years you are mistaken. I didn't think, or say, that only dope/oxo/oregano dealing was going on in CHL. I could have made that clearer but it's tedious to make every point in unequivocal legalese. My point was that there is a full-on crack/smack industry going on down the street that the police know about but are not doing anything to stop.

To go back to Pooka's point about why haven't I complained -- if the ''No Room for Crack and Smack '' publicity campaign is anything other than a filthily cynical PR exercise, Why aren't the police dealing with it anyway?

Why do they have to wait for enough people to complain? Is it really ''No room for smack and crack but only if lots of people complain about it, otherwise we'll turn a blind eye''?

If there was a murder, would the police hold off investigating until they had received a large number of complaints from the public? And there is murder going on -- people being killed either directly by drugs or by other people over drugs.

[pooka]

Blimey, IntoStella, your turning all Jesuitical for a Friday night!;)

So, presumably the good people of Josephine Ave HAVE complained loud and long to the police via the CPCG. And they are still suffering. Doesn't that reflect rather badly on the police/CPCG

Primarily, it demonstrates that the "middle classes get the service, working classes don't" model you propose is unfounded. Does it reflect badly on the police/CPCG? It tells us that the police action frequently results in displacement of crime rather than its eradication. And the circumstances on Somerleyton Road are in some part a consequence of police actvity in the town centre.

I expect the IMCA in everything but name DOES have working class members, but then the US Republican party has black members. It doesn't mean for a minute that the interests of working class people are represented. Rather, as Sean says, they are airbrushed out.

My point is that these fora are effective because they garner support around issues, and not on a class basis.

In class terms, which side would the IWCA be? - Errr... haven't you answered your own question there?

Err, perhaps I'm being dim but no, and neither have you - perhaps you could spell it out for me?

Are you suggesting that to be working class necessarily means to live in crime-ridden, squalid conditions? If so, you are making some very, er, controversial assumptions. I suggest you make a proper visit to Moorlands if you honestly (surely, surely not) believe it is some nice, middle class enclave just because regeneration has largely succeeded there. Bloody hell! More airbrushing: give working class people social housing that is fit to live in and it means they're not working class any more?!

What???? :confused: That's just about the opposite of what I'm saying. Your posts have implied that Moorlands must be "working class" cos it's an estate. All I'm saying is then so too must Stockwell, in your terms.

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by pooka
Your posts have implied that Moorlands must be "working class" cos it's an estate. All I'm saying is then so too must Stockwell, in your terms. I said I believe it to be predominantly working class, yes. Isn't that a reasonable assumption to make about an Inner London HA or council estate? How many middle and upper class people live on them? Or do you too prefer ''poor'' as a description, despite its horrid Victorian overtones?

A lot of the criticism that has been levelled at the IWCA model has been in the nature of ''But housing estates aren't working class because I happen to know one person who lives on one who isn't,'' or ''The name is offputting and class doesn't exist any more''. I'm sorry but it's ineffectual nitpicking!

Go and look at the kind of things they have actually been doing -- with masses of community support from people who look remarkably like ordinary citizens and who don't appear to have any whippets down their trousers at all! Go on -- have a look! :)

Residents evict ‘terror gang’ from park (http://www.bliwca.fsnet.co.uk/picket1.htm)

Dealing with anti-social behaviour Blackbird Leys style (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56560)

[pooka]

IntoStella:

To go back to Pooka's point about why haven't I complained -- if the ''No Room for Crack and Smack '' publicity campaign is anything other than a filthily cynical PR exercise, Why aren't the police dealing with it anyway?

My point is that it might not be a bad idea to ask them just what they are doing about it. As for "a filthy cynical PR exercise", I doubt it - but neither do I expect a publicity campaign to be a mgic wand that will sweep our streets clean. For all the reasons that have been well rehearsed on these boards (the legalisation arguement, the role of bigger players compared to the street dealers and so on), there is no magic wand.

I said I believe it to be predominantly working class, yes. Isn't that a reasonable assumption to make about an Inner London HA or council estate? How many middle and upper class people live on them? Or do you too prefer ''poor'' as a description, despite its horrid Victorian overtones?

You're diverting the arguement, developing a case around what you want to think I said rather than what I said.

Let's accept that, in your terms, the key distinguishing feature of any estate is that it's "working class". In which case so is Stockwell Estate. Then, in a future circumstance where the "working class" Trust wants to develop on the Skateboard Park (in order to fund refurbishment of the rest of the estate, for their "working class" residents) but other "working class" Brixton folk want to retain the Park for their kids to use, which side will the IWCA take? That was the question - go on, give us an answer.

My answer is that anyone who sees the Skateboard Park for the community asset that it is should work to ensure that it's future is protected and sustained, should the stock transfer go ahead. And I don't give a tinker's toss whether anyone is working class, middleclass, petit-bourgeois or even the bleedin aristocracy!

[Jay Emm]

Hatboy you should know by now PC is never wrong :) It was a Mori poll about a year ago.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,2763,778220,00.html

[hatboy]

"I'm not saying it's a conscious conspiracy (though the Panthers took the view that it was in the States-drugs being deliberately introduced to undercut black militancy)-but at present the affect is the same. There is a tie in between the muggings and burglaries committed in order to feed crack habits, communities being too intimidated to confront violent dealers and a wider demoralisation that leads many to think they can't resist gentrification or work together to protect what's best about their communities."

I hear you. It's difficult to prove sometimes but some people do get preference. Usually the people able to express themselves in a way the authorites understand and find easy to deal with and the people who can threaten some sort of comeback.

Into - your Somerleyton Road problem is called displacement.

Have a good weekend. :)

[Jay Emm]

IntoStella - why not speak to non U75 dwellers in Brixton you think might be interested??

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by pooka
For all the reasons that have been well rehearsed on these boards (the legalisation arguement, the role of bigger players compared to the street dealers and so on), there is no magic wand. I am absolutely sick of hearing this. I see it as a paternalistic, patronising sop to the people who have to put up with the problem from day to day. ''Don't worry your dim little heads -- we'll deal with it when we've done all this other terribly important stuff (and worked out who next to fob the problem off on to)”.

Don't tell me some Mr Big is going to get away just because the Somerleyton dealing problem is dealt with. That is a pathetic, worn out excuse for doing nothing. It's American cop show bullshit. If that was the case then what was the difference with Coldharbour Lane? Why was that dealt with? For cosmetic reasons, that's why. You're diverting the arguementOn the contrary, this is central to the argument. Are you, or are you not, saying that council estates (and those taken on by HAs) are not predominantly working class? Then what are they? ''The poor'' just will not do. Then, in a future circumstance where the "working class" Trust wants to develop on the Skateboard Park (in order to fund refurbishment of the rest of the estate, for their "working class" residents) but other "working class" Brixton folk want to retain the Park for their kids to use, which side will the IWCA take? That was the question -- go on, give us an answer. You suggest that the IWCA could not work effectively in a situation where two predominantly working class parties’ interests were at odds. Weasel words, my friend. You are implying that the IWCA's political operation consists of blundering into a situation and trying to muscle-in in the interests of working class people without addressing the salient issues (ergo, in your argument, it would short circuit if it had to mediate between working class groups with opposed interests). Come on, Pooka! That’s Scooby doo politics! Or have you just not bothered to look at all into what the IWCA does?

In fact, it would be far better equipped to do the bottom-up, democratic and fair consultation with all affected residents than any of the main political parties, who just don't give a toss what happens on estates. And I don't give a tinker's toss whether anyone is working class, middleclass, petit-bourgeois or even the bleedin aristocracy! Again, you are mixing up fairly representing the interests of an unfairly represented socio-economic group with class hatred. How many times do we have to go over this?

[editor]

Originally posted by IntoStella
Isn't that a reasonable assumption to make about an Inner London HA or council estate? I think that depends on the location and how much of the original estate has been flogged off - some council estates are very nce indeed, thanks very much!

But this whole tedious argument about 'what is working class' just reinforces my original comments about the vagaries of the term. And to a lot of people this interminable debate about working class-ness isn't what motivates or interests them: they want solutions to local problems not a flashback to 1970s class politics! (for that is how it may be perceived)

I wonder how many of the young kids on the estate think of themselves as 'working class'?

[editor]

Originally posted by past caring
And I can see how some people might be put off by the mention of class or the working class-but "intimidated"? Why? If you were a middle class type moving into an ICWA area, wouldn't you find their slogan, "Working Class Rule in Working Class Areas!" a little intimidating?

It could possibly be seen as a rallying call to boot out all the non-working class people in the area...

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by editor
I wonder how many of the young kids on the estate think of themselves as 'working class'? Since when have young kids ever been class-conscious? :confused:

Mike -- please actually check out the evidence via the links posted earlier on the community work the IWCA is actually doing. Do you see marauding gangs of crowbar-wielding, Phil Mitchell-type thugs in DM cherry reds booting terrified middle class people out of their burning homes?

More to the point, do you see the people in those communities fleeing in terror from the IWCA in case said bootboys suddenly materialise? No, ya don't. Because they are gladly working together with the IWCA to solve local social problems that politicans and the police have completely failed to solve.

[editor]

Originally posted by IntoStella
Since when have young kids ever been class-conscious? :confused: They were when I was growing up in Wales - well-to-do oiks unfortunate enough to go to comprehensive schools were regularly picked on, and it was the same at the football too.

And when I played gigs up the Valleys, I'd be accused of being 'posh' (or even worse - English!) by some of the more 'down to earth' types there.

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by editor
I'd be accused of being 'posh' (or even worse - English!) ROFL :D, Yes, that does happen. I was called posh -- and beaten for it -- even though my stepdad was a farmhand earning 33 quid a week. Before that job, with a tied cottage, we actually lived in a converted shed with rats running around in the roof.

But there is no logical connection whatsoever between young kids (of all walks of life) sometimes being little shits and the work of the IWCA. Kids generally hate EVERYONE who isn't like them. But as they get older, hopefully, they become civilised, and tolerance is a key aspect of civilisation.

[editor]

Originally posted by IntoStella
But there is no logical connection whatsoever between young kids (of all walks of life) sometimes being little shits and the work of the IWCA. You've missed my point. If the ICWA is to truly represent the local community then it has to appear attractive and inclusive to all ages.

I'm of the opinion that slogans like, "Working Class Rule in Working Class Areas!" are likely to alienate some people in that community and, frankly, no matter how much you insist to the contrary, that is my opinion and one that I feel is accurate to the best of my knowledge.

And as a resident of this estate for over 11 years, I think I might have some vague idea about how some of the community might react to such sloganeering.

[IntoStella]

These results may be interesting to anyone who thinks the IWCA is some hopeless pissing-in-the wind exercise:

Bunhill ward - Islington Borough Council by-election, 23 January 2003

Lib Dem (elected) 797 &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp 44.9%
Lab 412 &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp 23.2%

IWCA 398 &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp 22.4%

Con 111 &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp6.2%
Green 57 &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp3.2%

After a year or two establishing itself in Brixton, I wonder how well they would do in council elections? I'd be pretty worried if I was a main party councillor. Yes, the numbers polled in the by election are tiny but turnouts are falling and falling as people become more and more disillusioned with the existing political process. Don't forget the last general election saw the lowest turnout since before women got the vote! :eek:

[pooka]

Into:
I am absolutely sick of hearing this. I see it as a paternalistic, patronising sop to the people who have to put up with the problem from day to day. ''Don't worry your dim little heads -- we'll deal with it when we've done all this other terribly important stuff (and worked out who next to fob the problem off on to)”.

Eh? Again, that's not what I said. I'm saying that the "Crack Out" campaign is unlikely to rid the streets of dealers of itself. I'm also saying that police activity with street dealers of itself won't either, for all the reasons given, and will result in displacement as much, or more so, than erradication. But that is not a reason for not doing either - as well as working higher up the supply chain.

But main point is that if you don't tackle the police directly, or encourage the Moorlands residents to do so (and find out why their Residents Association chair is falling over in her praise for the local police) then you can't speak authoritatively about what they are or aren't doing down Somerleyton Road. You suggest that they are more diligent around Herne Hill - can you evidence this? I'd lay good money that there is much more police resource devoted to Angel and Coldharbour than to Herne Hill, but you may be able to prove me wrong.

I think the line you're taking on this illustrates what I find least attractive about the IWCA proposal - you start from a class analysis and then interpret the evidence to fit. It's an approach which may induce warm feeling amongst the intiates, but not one (IMO) that would attract wider support.

Why was Coldharbour Lane dealt with? Because virtually the entirety of Lambeth (including many on these Boards), and beyond, was screaming about it, that's why.

On the contrary, this is central to the argument. Are you, or are you not, saying that council estates (and those taken on by HAs) are not predominantly working class? Then what are they? ''The poor'' just will not do.

Read what I wrote. For the sake of arguement, I accepted your categorisation of "estates = working class". My pont was that the issue of the Skateboard Park, an important one for people living in Brixton, is not a class one. Your response that nontheless its only people who self-identify as working class (even by the heavily caveated definition of IWCA), who are best placed to resolve this, doesn't convince me.

I don't think any of the people engaged with this issue currently would identify in those terms (the prime mover amongst the skaters is an architect, for example - read their website, can you find evidence of class conciousness there?), they've had help and support from ward councillors (cf "than any of the main political parties, who just don't give a toss what happens on estates. "), council officers, local people and the Brixton Forum - and I've heard no-one cast this as a class issue. I certainly think some of those people would have backed off if the whole thing was couched in the terms of "class struggle" or whatever you want to call it.


not a flashback to 1970s class politics!

Absolutely! Ever since sitting as a (working class) student in SU meetiings, listening to lectures in well-modulated, Home Counties accents, asserting the need for "solidarity with the working claaases", I've been deeply suspicious of this stuff. Many of its leading lights went on to screw up the Labour party for a generation, and gave us 18 years of Thatcherism. Fat lot of good that did for the working claaaases.

But, at the end of the day, if there are significant numbers of people who are more likely to be motivated to be active in their communities by a class banner, rather than the simple wish to improve their own and their neighbours lot (regardless of class) and if their efforts lead to greater not less cohesion, then let them go for it. By their fruits shall you know them:)

[editor]

Originally posted by IntoStella
These results may be interesting to anyone who thinks the IWCA is some hopeless pissing-in-the wind exercise:Has anyone actually suggested that?

I certainly haven't: I support and applaud what they're doing and my criticisms are intended to be nothing but positive.

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by editor
You've missed my point. If the ICWA is to truly represent the local community then it has to appear attractive and inclusive to all ages.I can't help thinking it would be more pertinent to win the hearts and minds of the parents than the young kids. And as a resident of this estate for over 11 years, I think I might have some vague idea about how some of the community might react to such sloganeering. As I said before, look at those pictures/reports via the links of ordinary estate residents ''reacting badly'' to those ''sloganeering'' IWCA people. Not.*

You might have lived where you are for 11 years -- and I appreciate how bad things were before they sorted out the security -- but you have very set ideas about the way things are (ie that if you hate the idea of a working class then so must every other sensible person), and if a group like the IWCA started doing work in your local community, you might well be surprised at the disparity between the reality and your predictions -- on the evidence of IWCA work elsewhere.

Out of interest, how many people (apart from the obvious household) do you actually know on the ground? Because it seems to me that nobody really sees the block and the estate as any kind of cohesive unit.

*Or maybe Oxford has an unusually high propensity of class-hate-commie-whippet-lovers. Somehow I doubt it, though.

Right, time to stop procrastinating in this nice, warm office and face the fact that my abode presently has no electricity. At all. (Or gas). First stop -- the Albert for a few pints of ''central heating":(. )

[editor]

Originally posted by IntoStella
but you have very set ideas about the way things are (ie that if you hate the idea of a working class then so must every other sensible person), FFS: I'm going to leave you to this because I truly can't be arsed with this mischievous misquoting.

For the record (and I'm putting it in capitals in the hope that the message will be received loud and clear): I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT I "HATE THE IDEA OF A WORKING CLASS, NEITHER HAVE I SUGGESTED THAT ALL "SENSIBLE" PEOPLE WOULD THINK THE SAME " . Not once. Not ever. Not even hinted at it because it's NOT what I think. You made that up.

I do not have 'set ideas' on this matter. I have simply said that I now find the definition of 'working class' vague and confusing, and fear that some members of the community may be put off by it.

That's it. Not a speck of hatred in sight, just my attempt to offer some constructive criticism to a cause I support.

Let's hope that if the ICWA do come to Brixton, they deal with such honestly-dealt criticism a little less belligerently than you...

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by editor
they want solutions to local problems not a flashback to 1970s class politics! And the former is what, by all the evidence, the IWCA is delivering. :) Originally posted by pooka
Again, that's not what I said. It isn't? It looked a lot like the old ''There's no magic wand''... ''we're after the bigger fish'' old chestnut that the residents on the wrong end of all this get fobbed off with every single time.But main point is that if you don't tackle the police directly, or encourage the Moorlands residents to do so (and find out why their Residents Association chair is falling over in her praise for the local police) Yes, well, she also thinks she's a Mossad agent, a psychiatrist, a lawyer, a journalist and a millionaire :eek: . That is for the Tenants' Association to deal with. You suggest that they are more diligent around Herne Hill -- can you evidence this? That is your area of expertise, pooka. I'm sure you already know the answers.Why was Coldharbour Lane dealt with? Because virtually the entirety of Lambeth (including many on these Boards), and beyond, was screaming about it, that's why. My point was that the ‘no room..’ campaign looks very cynical when the police know perfectly well what is going on. No, pooka, people should not have to scream and scream about this. The police should be dealing with it, as they claim to be doing, otherwise they are lying.

Cleaning up CHL was a PR exercise because Lambeth wanted people to continue to travel there at weekends for the nightlife and spend lots of cash. For the sake of arguement, I accepted your categorisation of "estates = working class". I asked you a straight question about what YOU think, which you have wriggled out of. Care to answer it? (the prime mover amongst the skaters is an architectThat doesn’t surprise me at all. I certainly think some of those people would have backed off if the whole thing was couched in the terms of "class struggle" or whatever you want to call it.Oh for god's sake. Why don't you just read the sodding evidence and tell me where IWCA talks about class struggle?

Tell you what, let's just keep the status quo that serves you so well and leave it to the usual crew of paternalistic liberals to take care of everyone. After all, they always know best, don’t they? :rolleyes: By their fruits shall you know them :) Exactly. So go and look at the work the IWCA has actually done and what it has achieved instead of cooking up all this negative weaselly stuff.

[hatboy]

IntoStella - I feel that, sadly, you are pushing yourself into a self-made corner where the only people who'll you'll relate to will be those who loudly declare their working class credentials (whether merited or not) and insist that anything and everything is class, class, class....

If you want a diversity of people to tune into your passions and beliefs I reckon you should lighten up and start accepting that lots of people who don't fit your increasingly narrow idea of worthyness have a part to play in Brixton too.

And no, you, AK, Justin, Gramsci and Bob cannot take over this board with the constant politicking. That isn't going to happen. You'd be making it less attractive to lots of people who already think u75 is just afew Albert bores.

Sorry, that really wasn't meant to sound horrible or personal. But people are saying to me this board is suffering because of this stuff.

Buzzsw9 - very balanced, thanks. :)

PS I do not have a politics phobia. I have a political bores phobia.

[Donna Ferentes]

1. Pooka - just because the Josephine Avenue Group reckon they're being neglected don't make it so. They may protest too much (e.g. about people who don't priune the trees in front of their houses). Nice art exhibition they held the other day though.

2. Blackbird Leys - as a former resident of that estate I'm a little iffy about the campaign there. I've said why on the relevant thread.

3. The IWCA - as I've said, I'm more positive about them than negative. But I do think they're short on politics, and perhaps even hostile to it (e.g. silly remarks about the "student left" on their site). There's something about them that bothers me without my necessarily being able to put my finger on it. But PC might reckon he could put that right over a pint, and I'm game if he is.

[Donna Ferentes]

Originally posted by hatboy
And no, you, AK, Justin, Gramsci and Bob cannot take over this board with the constant politicking. That isn't going to happen. You'd be making it less attractive to lots of people who already think u75 is just a few Albert bores.Oh, give it a rest. Nobody is "taking over" anything. It's possible some people don't like talk about politics. It's possible other people are bored by the Merrett stuff. It's possible I'm bored by lots of threads on this forum and others. When that happens, I go and read other ones. Anybody else might take the same advice.

[hatboy]

http://www.uchastings.edu/comment/images/door.jpg

[Donna Ferentes]

"I wonder if I might have a translation?"

[IntoStella]

Buzz saidI would argue that to fight to keep the school open isn’t and needn’t be a political campaign, the parents would normally be from many and varied backgrounds and classes with many political views, so you have a common goal “keeping the school open and getting your children a good education”. Firstly, thanks for your considered replies. OK, in what way is your example political? I will tell you. When parents, no matter what the mix of backgrounds, lobby a local authority over a school closure, what is the only bargaining chip they have? It is this: ''If you close this school, at the next elections we will vote you out of office.'' And that is as political as politics gets. It's what the whole thing is about.

No, I am not talking about parliamentary party politics. I never said I was. Politics done at local authority level is a different animal. Otherwise, party political representation in local authorities nationwide would be the same as in central government, and it is patently not. And that is the power of local politics. Originally posted by hatboy
And no, you, AK, Justin, Gramsci and Bob cannot take over this board with the constant politicking. That isn't going to happen. Stop moving the sodding goalposts, hatboy. We started a new thread, as you asked, so quit bullying and interfering.

Stop trying to drive ALL mention of politics off the boards.

All this business about people being put off is the opposite of the truth, which is that discussions such as the secondary school and Rushcroft Road have brought loads of new local people to the boards and got them invovled in the debates. If you don't like it, don't bloody read it, but don't selfishly fuck it up for everyone else.

When I first started posting in this forum, about 18 months ago, it was dead most of the time. There would be maybe one or two posts a day. Now it is absolutley buzzing. If you think that isn't to a large extent to do with local politics then you are just not facing the truth.

And stop trying (unsuccessfully) to intimidate Justin by ''showing him the door''. Ho de ho. :rolleyes: You'd be making it less attractive to lots of people who already think u75 is just afew Albert bores. What? Is he visiting from Birmingham? :D Is there more than one of him?? ;)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1635000/images/_1637366_brumcouncilleader150.jpg

Oh, sorry. political joke. :rolleyes:

[IntoStella]

I absolutely refute the idea that the only way you can get anywhere is to make sure you are chums with lawyers. Not everyone has that ''luxury'', should they even want it.

That is the opposite of democracy. It sucks. And don't tell me that lawyers will support a worthy campaign out of a sense of social justice. We are talking about lawyers here. Their interests are often diametrically at odds with those of the community, even if they live in it. Why should they care if a local state school closes when their own kids are at an expensive private school?

You are adopting an absurdly narrow definition of politics if you think a campaign to save a school is not political. You refuse to acknowledge that what you actually did was to pressure the councillors to do what you wanted. You can call it what you like but that is politics.

Don't you think the councillors are looking at the situation in political terms, ie whether their electoral arse is on the line? If you can't see that you're being naive. Moreover, you have entirely proven my point by arguing that you can only achieve anything if you know the right people -- ie if you are privileged and middle class.

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by Buzz sw9
but I would guess :D I'm a far bit older
I doubt it. :)

No, I don't think getting out of bed in the morning is political. But I do think a campaign putting pressure on councillors is inevitably political. Some LBL councillors do a lot of good work but they have all, always, got an eye on the polls.

[hatboy]

In UK Politics IntoStella said:

"We have been having a discussion about setting up a Brixton area IWCA on the Brixton boards and had a barrage of comments to the effect of ''Ooh no! You mustn't talk about the working class! It will put everyone off! The term working class is really intimidating!", "Nobody sees themselves as being working class these days" and "There's no such thing as class any more!" We had to move the discussion because it grew, quite naturally, out of a thread about antisocial use of fireworks and we were, apparently, getting ''too political'' and ''frightening people''. Criminy!"

No-one was foolish enough to say there's no such thing as class any more and you know it IntoStella. :)

People who care deeply about social justice aren't always working-class and/or don't always call themselves working class, that's all.

I'm actually increasingly impressed with some of the IWCA doings, but I'd feel awkward joining myself because I don't want to be a poser/inauthentic. My financial status is bottom of the heap, but my up-bringing can be most accurately described in class terms as lower-middleclass. Therefore, since I like to be honest about myself, the IWCA name puts off this potential supporter. I know many people who's class would most accurately be described as working-class, but who'd also be put off because they don't define themselves in class terms.

And I think I've hit on my biggest problem with the IWCA and this discussion with this:

Plus, many people associate any organization with "working class" in the title with middle-class people trying to be "down with the community". This is very off putting whatever class you are if you are concerned about presenting yourself authentically.

Also "work" has changed so much in the last few decades that "working class" just sounds dated.

There's an irony in this because I'm not suggesting that the IWCA should be re-named/New Laboured with the help of spin and focus groups, but is there another name that would be better?

[Donna Ferentes]

Originally posted by hatboy
Also "work" has changed so much in the last few decades that "working class" just sounds dated.I don't think this is true. I don't think there's much more mobility between classes and there's certainly a great deal more inequality between them. If the term can seem dated it may be because the unions have been much weaker over the last two decades than they were over, say, the previous three, and so people think less of being part of something - they seem to have to make their way individually more than they used to. But that pendulum will swing back again, as it always does.

[butchersapron]

If the term 'working class' sounds dated why did nearly 70% of those questioned in the annual Mori poll identify themselves as working class ("and proud of it")? Are these people similiarly outdated?

"It seems, then, that over the period of office of the present government there has been a remarkable renaissance in the feeling of working class solidarity - a period during which, measured by conventional definitions, the size of the British working class has continued to fall. (Or just possibly, if the changed result is caused by the interviewing method, respondents find it easier to claim working-class feelings when speaking face-to-face and deprived of the anonymity of a self-completion questionnaire, suggesting that they feel the climate of opinion favours the working class identity, which makes the same point in a different way.) At any rate, two-thirds of the adult public now claim to feel "working class and proud of it"; so, indeed, do 55% of those who we would normally in our surveys call "middle class", the ABC1s."

Report (http://www.mori.com/digest/2002/c020816.shtml)

[hatboy]

Mm, funnily enough Justin I was just thinking something like that while writing. Work has changed (decline in manufacturing, the rise of IT, etc).

BUt, however it's labelled, this country certainly needs a government/elected representatives more in touch with the needs of the ordinary and the poor, and ethnic minorities. (I know that sounds a bit of a cliche, but I really don't think we are there yet. And often I feel divisions between people are becoming wider).

[Gramsci]

Well Ive read the first 2 and a half pages.Theirs a lot of stuff about class-not surprisingly.To much to comment on.Up to a point I am active in the area-the bike shop,Brixton Forum(formerly) and a residents group-but Im not a full time politico.

1)The debate about class also goes on within Marxism itself-ie the old one about whether a teacher is working class or middle class.So its not anti Marxism to pose these questions and debate them.I wont go into the whole area here as it will take up to much space.However without getting doctranairre about this class struggle takes many forms and if I get my Marx right is something that you cant "reform" out of Capitalism as social democrats believe.

Their are those theorists-Marcuse,Negri etc who would argue that in Late Capitalism or post industrial society the idea of a revolutionary traditional Marxist working class no longer has the relevance it used to have.I think Hatboy,Mike etc think like this(excuse me if I presuming to much here).That does not mean that people who think like this are less radical than say Justin(and what Justin says on class makes a lot of sense).Its that they have a different angle on society.

2)The IWCA have been effective in North London giving disillusioned Labour voters a way of opposing the Neo Liberal agenda of the New Labour project.In Brixton the U75 board has been where campaigns have been organised--Paddick,the bike shop.It IMO makes it possible to campaign on local issues in a way that is open and pluralist.I dont think say Pooka would join a Brixton IWCA.

Being in a residents group I have some idea of the work involved.I pragmatically believe in keeping things simple-if the U75 board provides a platform and organising space then why not use it-it works-why set up something else?

3)Pragmatism/Compromise--Im not an out and out Anarchist I realise u have to compromise to get people on board.The bike shop issue-which was really about Gentrification-is a case in point.The line i persued was protection of small businesses,local amenity and Brixtons character from greedy businessmen.On the face of it not that radical.It did mean that it was something that people could sign up to-so as I saw it their was a coalition of liberals,old lefties and Brixton "alternative" society opposing the bike shop.

[ernestolynch]

Originally posted by hatboy
Also "work" has changed so much in the last few decades that "working class" just sounds dated.

There's an irony in this because I'm not suggesting that the IWCA should be re-named/New Laboured with the help of spin and focus groups, but is there another name that would be better?


Do you have to work for a living, hatters old bean?

Independent Shirking Class Association? :p

[pooka]

Intostella:

Forgive me, but I don't have the stamina to go on posting lengthening posts of quote and counter-quote, whilst still maintaining the will to live. So here's one last attempt:

1.You maintain that the police are failing to deal with Somerleyton Road because they don't respond to the needs of working class people, but can't be arsed to even ask them what they are or are not doing, or to find out why the chair of the TA is so fulcome in her praise. I for one would take more notice of you if you had. Otherwise, I interpret your stance as the usual start with a class analysis and then interpret the evidence as fits.

(Incidentally, I hold no brief for said chair, but unless she made those claims directly to yourself or someone else who'll stand up in court and say so, then you might want to consider editing your post to protect these boards. The person concerned has told me directly that her barrister is Michael Mansfield!)

2. Are estates overwhelmingly "working class"? Probably, although most of the people I know who live on estates aren't and wouldn't identify themselves as such. But in my terms, the most salient thing is (1) what sort of deal they are getting on their estate and (2) what sort of deal we are all getting in Brixton, regardless of where we live or what class you might assign to us.

3. "You suggest that they are more diligent around Herne Hill -- can you evidence this? "

"That is your area of expertise, pooka. I'm sure you already know the answers"

Ah. so that constitutes an arguement does it?

4.IS "Cleaning up CHL was a PR exercise because Lambeth wanted people to continue to travel there at weekends for the nightlife and spend lots of cash."

Why? Lambeth (I assume you mean the Council) doesn't get any of the money spent on CHL.

5. pooka: "(the prime mover amongst the skaters is an architect

IS "That doesn’t surprise me at all."

Care to elaborate what that means and how it refutes my point, which is that here is a local issue for which a class based analysis is unlikely to be productive?

6. IS "Tell you what, let's just keep the status quo that serves you so well and leave it to the usual crew of paternalistic liberals to take care of everyone. After all, they always know best, don’t they? "

Why do you think the status quo serves me any better than anyone else?

7.IS: "Oh for god's sake. Why don't you just read the sodding evidence and tell me where IWCA talks about class struggle?" & "Exactly. So go and look at the work the IWCA has actually done and what it has achieved instead of cooking up all this negative weaselly stuff."

That's like saying if you want to know how well the Government is doing, go and read the Labour Party's website! But while we're at it, you might want to explain why blocking a grant to the London Symphony Orchestra, to work in schools in EC1. was such a good thing?

gramsci: I agree entirely, constructing coalitions around issues is far more likely to be successful - even if it is much harder work.

ernesto: this isn't the Politics Forum - here we mostly try to address the arguements not the person, and aren't impressed by that sort of sub-Littlejohn sneering.

[Gramsci]

Poor old Infostella I do agree with a lot of your sentiments ur getting a lot of flack here.

Im trying to think quickly here so forgive me if i get things wrong.I agree with Past Carings posts of how Thatcherism destroyed the idea of left wing politics.Its really hard these days to talk or debate in any political terms.U get ridiculed or ignored.The last party conferences were an example-god how tedious they were.

Buzz sw9-I have a real problem with this non political stuff.On the School thread I started what I did was google info of the web about what a City Academy really is in practise.I then had an opinion about it.I call that being political.I dont see that as a problem.

Ur I assume part of the school campaign-good.But to argue that dealing with bureaucrats is not political is beyond me.It might not be waving the red flag on the barricades but it still is political.The decision of the Council to close a school is a political choice they(the Councillors in the end) make.Its a fallacy to see schooling as a neutral area.The fact that u say bureaucrats tried to close the school is interesting.It begs the questions who set up this bureaucracy?Why is it not more accountable and whose interests does it serve?Who should have the power to close a school?etc--numerous political questions.

Maybe its how my mind works-I see a lot of the debate on a new school in Brixton being largely couched in technical/"non political" terms.But if u talk to people involved in the schools campaign they do have an idea of what kind of school they want-non denominational,all ability(comprehensive) locally controlled school.Thats political in my book.

This takes me back to Pookas point about going to the Council run Brixton Forums.I did use to go but I found u got a hard time if u went on about subjects the Council didnt want--ie Asset sales,protecting social housing.The Brixton Town Centre Mge work for the Council in the end-(see my post on the Brixton policing thread Ive just bumped up).Properdiscussion was not encouraged outside the boundaries set by the Council.Also the Council encourages consultation then when it chooses to "forgets" it--see the case of Somerleyton Rd.The original plans for it were put on hold by the Council without informing residents because they want to build a school their.

In the Brixton Forum the most influential is the Herne Hill group.I dont like to have to say this but they were from the beginning always treated differently from the likes of pepole like me.They are a classic "non political" dominated group who IMO are small c conservative-have their good points but I never felt welcome their(I was in Herne hill ward before Coldharbour was set up.)

Pooka is correct that their are more than one "community" in Brixton.The way the Brixton Forum was set up was based on thwe fallacy(and still is)that "we" the community will all work together to make Brixton a better place.The bike shop saga showed this not to be true-their are different views on Brixton-someone has to lose.We won that one.

What does undermine Pookas argument a bit is that the Bike shop saga was done outside the Brixton Forum.This gave us a lot more independance.Once the local councillors realised we were a credible campaign that had a lot of local sympathy for the issues it raised they supported us.In the end the bike shop planniing decision will feed into the new UDP.All this done outside the Brixton Forum (and we could have done with some practical support as it was time consuming).This campaign would not have worked without U75 and those who voluntarily run it.My question for Pooka is as this site is a valid arena for local issues why dont councillors engage with it?Its all very well to say that people should attend "Forums" but why cant the Council be a bit more open minded about how they deal with local residents?

I however think it would be a good idea if some of us did go to these some of these council meetings(with no illusions)as this is where the info etc is.If we shared it out we could do it.Im sure the IWCA turn up to council meetings to lobby on local issues.I suppose Im talking about an informal "awkward squad" for Brixton(but being constructive as we were on the bike shop).
If we shared info etc we would not be isolated residents.

[hatboy]

Thanks Pooka.

Ernesto - wrong thread, wrong forum, and mind your own. :p

[hatboy]

"gramsci: I agree entirely, constructing coalitions around issues is far more likely to be successful - even if it is much harder work. "

I agree. I thought that post was really even-handed. :)

I'm going to more Brixton Area Forum meetings now. I think it's possible that the BAF may become more independent soon.

[Spud Murphy III]

There is also an organisation called TELCO - The East London Communities Organisation - who have done a lot of good work. They are looking to expand south of the river, and people may care to have a look at their website: www.telcocitizens.org.uk (http://www.telcocitizens.org.uk/)

I like a lot of the things the IWCA are doing and think they have an original and interesting approach to a lot of issues. On some matters they are the 'expert voice', so I am happy to support them by bunging them some money each month via standing order. I would also do other things but it is not exactly clear to me what kind of help they need or what someone like me can contribute. This is one area where they need to get better organised in my opinion. Simply adding to the growing 'aren't they wonderful' chorus here hardly counts - plus I suspect some will begin to get fed up hearing about them.

Brixton is quite an unusual place, as are many parts of inner London, that has few parallels in the rest of the country. It is a kind of bohemian district. Something like the IWCA would be better off turning their attentions to places like Dagenham or Coventry.

[Gramsci]

Originally posted by Spud Murphy III
There is also an organisation called TELCO - The East London Communities Organisation - who have done a lot of good work. They are looking to expand south of the river

Brixton is quite an unusual place, as are many parts of inner London, that has few parallels in the rest of the country. It is a kind of bohemian district. Something like the IWCA would be better off turning their attentions to places like Dagenham or Coventry.

I agree with this-though I would say its a mixture of bohemians,refugees,1st and 2nd generation immigrants,working class with a high proportion of ethnic minorites.

Ive heard good things about TELCO-they have done a lot for the low paid etc.Im interested that they are thinking of moving south.I dont know how this would cut across the Council forums.

[hatboy]

"South London Citizens" is a much more widely appealing name IMHO. I like it.

:)

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by pooka
Forgive me, but I don't have the stamina to go on posting lengthening posts of quote and counter-quote, whilst still maintaining th