View Full Version : *Guns/Crack: The Commander - your opinion please?
Hi Brian - Can you tell me what Lambeth Police are doing about the destruction being wrought on the local community, especially in Brixton, by the use and dealing of crack and by gun-culture? I'd like to hear what you envisage for the future for the safety of the citizens of Brixton?
(PS PLEASE can other posters resist the temptatation to post on this thread until Mr Paddick has responded and a debate can then ensue).
Bump - thanks for NOT posting on here yet people. Where's The Commander got too? Briiiaaan!
Sorry for the delay - have had some serious personal issues to deal with.
What to do about crack and smack, especially in Brixton? My take - "don't damage my community". Translates into top priority = don't openly deal on the streets - it frightens people and raises their fear of crime - street deal and I'm after you. That means arrest, charge, court, long prison sentence (I hope).
Chaotic drug users - those so addicted to crack or smack that they cannot hold down a job, don't have enough money to feed the habit without robbing, breaking into people's homes or cars = damaging my community. These people are victims though. Victims of 'the system' that got them into the state they are in - victims of the drug dealers who encouraged them into taking the stuff maybe. We need more money for treatment, outreach work, support, so these people can come off the stuff and start living again. OK, if they rob and steal they'll get arested too, but hopefully they will get help too (we have drug workers at the police station, for example).
Not much time now, but I wil develop my ideas as we go along. Bottom line - screw the dealers, help the addicts.
Light blue touch-paper and retire!
Sounds like a good plan, how do you see it coming into action? How can Brixtonites (like us) help?
Yes, I want to screw some dealers please!!
sonicdancer
28-01-2002, 15:46
Commander maybe a zero tolerance attitude as adopted in New York by Geuliano may do the trick but this would need to be adopted elsewhere also otherwise the problems just get pushed somewhere else (as mentioned in previous threads) Cleaning up the dealers from the (numerous) favoured little drug dealing spots on the streets of Brixton WOULD alleviate residents concerns/fears but it would also eradicate the street life inherant.
I personally think that operation trident is failing, whatever you are doing it is not working, the guns situation is getting worse not better, a couple of deals up from the pavement outside Brixton Train Station people are getting shot, every week and as we can see in Tulse Hill recently innocent people are the victims...
The police need to work more closely with Government secret organistions who are experts in surveillance/covert operations so that the people who bring the drugs into Brixton 3/4 deals up from the street are apprehended, there aint gonna be many street dealers intimidating innocent people if you are cutting off the supply higher up.
START WINNING OPERATION TRIDENT - YOU ARE LOSING AND HENCE IT IS WORSE ON THE STREET
more money/police/ideas please
:rolleyes:
'The Commander', Panda etc, maybe you could start with the drug dealers on Atlantic Rd, they always congregate outside a certain mens clothes shop and sell to some of Brixtons most high profile drug victims.
If this is truly Brian P with whom we are communicating (although I very much doubt it) then maybe he can explain why the police have failed to do anything about this particular (Atlantic Rd) drug haven for years. Surely just driving past a few times would do the trick, or do you consider it a police no-go area?
And also could you explain what you mean about this 'don't openly deal on the streets' does this mean that you are happy for dealing to continue in crack houses, because it's less intimidating to the general public.
I am also a bit concerned about this statment 'but I will develop my ideas as we go along' does that mean you have no idea at the moment???
Sounds like you're a fake to me!!!
TinyCrendon
28-01-2002, 16:38
I agree w/Jo, not convinced by commander.
Streathamite
28-01-2002, 17:14
If this is truly Brian P with whom we are communicating (although I very much doubt it)
Get with the programme happyhappy etc. It is Brian Paddick-I received e-mail confirmation this morning. The Editor has also checked out the Bona fides.
And for god's sake lets stick with the bloke-he's the best news we've had in ages,and his nascent dialogue with U75 is a verypromising augury for the future
Only time will tell, I guess.
William of Walworth
28-01-2002, 17:55
While I'm about 90% convinced now that it is him, because of various previously sceptical U75 peeps being won over by direct email contact from him, I have to say that I can't remember Mike putting anything up to confirm it :confused:
drfranni
28-01-2002, 18:13
I hope that your personal "issues" are in the process of improving Mr C.
We need to get over whether this is definitely Mr Paddick or not. I beleive it is. I know people who've met you and speak well of you Brian, and, as I seldom do anything especially illegal and don't care if you know my identity I'm wondering whether you'd consent to me popping by the cop-shop and saying a brief (I know your busy) hello.
Aside from that, just wanted to say that I disagree with the Guilliani zero-tolerance approach because in the process of making an area safer it also oppresses street- and alternative culture. Since Brixton is the best Britain can do for a "downtown" New York type of lively street-
scene, it would be more than a shame to kill it off. And may not even be possible anyway.
Another thing: I think it's great that you say you don't have set ideas on how to tackle the crime problems in Brixton. That shows you are flexible. Often the most enlightened people are the one's who can say "I don't know". But of course you'll need to evolve an effective strategy.
Interested to hear more. And pleased that you not demonising anybody. There's always a bigger picture isn't there?
Using undercover cops would be a good idea as the dealers just move when uniformed patrols come along. There has been a great success in driving away dealers in the West End around Soho where a couple of years ago there was very open dealing in the streets. But the problem seems as bad as ever in south London. In the West End large billboards were used similar to those yellow witness appeal boards with anouncements about drug dealer arrests with slogans such drug dealer recently arrested and sentenced to three years imprisonment to scare away dealers.
sonicdancer
28-01-2002, 19:42
HB I have weighed up the zero-tolerance approach on one hand and the loss of street culture on the other, and dont really think you can have your cake and eat it...The only way that a stop is going to be put to muggings/burglaries/shootings/assaults/close friends and family dying (bad side effects of drugs) and keep the hustle and bustle of street life (which I like no; love..) then the way to go is relax cannabis so that street activity exists (this is happening) and at the same time target the bigger Brixton dealers shifting kilos of cocaine down the food chain. Operation Trident SHOULD be doing this. I dont know any skunk smokers carrying pieces or hasseling people at Brixton tube...I mentioned it would kill the street culture inherant and was just really thinking aloud, but am troubled on alternative solutions.
Wow! If anyone wants personal confirmation call the station and ask for an appointment. Say you are from Urban 75 and I will make sure one of you gets to see me (8649 2002). The real debate should happen here though, not one-to-one in my office.
Zero tolerance - sounds like 'police state' to me. In NY they had thousands of extra police, massive investment in improving the environment, special drugs courts - investment across the board not just hard policing. Lambeth - I don't have the cops and the Local Authority don't have the cash to improve things that much - the spirit is willing on their side but ...
So why don't we just sweep away the dealers? We have mounted every kind of police operation in Coldharbour Lane. We have had under-cover cops, uniform cops working off what the CCTV shows, everything. We have arrested about 50 street dealers in the past 12 months and within hours of arresting one, another takes their place. As long as there is the demand, as long as there are poor, desparate and gullible people willing to put their necks on the line for the bigger dealers further up the food chain, there will be street dealers.
Number one priority is the street dealers because they peddle death AND frighten the public. The bigger dealers are much harder to find and arrest and they have bigger dealers and so on until you get to the importers. All law enforcement agencies need to do their bit to stop this. My job with my people is to tackle the street dealers and (if we're lucky) the next ones up. After that its out of our league (but we can pass on the info.) The street delaers are like weeds - you cut them down and they keep growing back. You need to deprive them of their 'sunshine'. So we need to look at taking out the punters and getting them into treatment.
Anyone who deals to chaotic drug addicts are in my firing line. It's a contentious area but these are my priority targets. OK, I have said in the past that club dealers who supply 'recreational users' who do not resort to crime to by the stuff are at the bottom of my priority list but how many people do we know who started with a weekend habit and ended-up with a terminal habit?
We are working now with the Secret Services on this (I think) but this is beyond my remit. We also need to fight poverty and do more education in places like Jamaica where poor people are duped into carrying cocaine condoms in their stomachs. You won't get any of these millionaire vermin drug barons swallowing this stuff. Maybe a squirt of weed-killer on the right poppies would help?
These people are not easily frightened. A couple of police drive-pasts does not do it for them. We do patrol the centre and I have some of the bravest, fearless, unarmed cops who care enough to tackle gun-carrying drug dealers, who get attacked by the dealers and their cronies when they do, and still go back for more. These are boys and girls in uniform who put their lives on the line for us and they get deal grief for it.
We need to decide those issues where the peeps and the police have no argument - lets get the drug dealers, for example. We need to stand together in Coldharbour Lane, night after night, and put these people out of business. It's been done before to get rid of prostitutes but these are heavier. If the community and the police stand together we will win. It is when we fight each other that the bad guys win. Sure there are going to be things where you are going to disagree with the police. Lets decide what we can work together on.
I have asked the police union reps. (Police Federation) to come up with a list of things the cops think should not be tolerated in Lambeth and those things that we should be more relaxed about (we cannot enforce every single law all of the time). I have put cannabis (small amounts for personal use) in the second column. What would you put in each column? I have told the unions I will ask you what your big beefs are and then compare the two lists to see where we can agree on priorities.
I care passionately about people. I love Lambeth, Brixton in particular. I want people to have as much freedom as possible provided they don't damage my community. These drug dealers are ruining it for us. What can we do together?
:confused:
Impressive. I'll get back to you, as I'm sure others will, with a list of "I'm OK withs" and "I'm not OK withs". Shit - what a responsibility. :)
William of Walworth
29-01-2002, 06:32
Excellent post, Commander. Lingering doubts on who you are finally extinguished .. I'll be interested to read others' responses, particularly from those who live locally.
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: William of Walworth ]
drfranni
29-01-2002, 07:25
As HB says - "Shit- what a responsibility"
Personally and professionally I struggle with the tensions between the need for my profession (medicine) to provide an excellent service with limited resources and to be accountable - whilst at the same time recruiting and retaining staff who are increasingly demoralised. In addition, you are surrounded by statutary duties and reulations.
There is no easy way around this - the police need to be accountable for their actions and I have some understanding of how difficult it must be to motivate officers who are faced with personal danger and vitriolic criticism in the same day.
I have been the direct "victim" (hate that word) of crime 5 times in the past year and it struck me very forcibly that the thing which impressed me most was the attitude of the officers involved. I knew that there was not a snowball's chance in a nuclear reactor that they would "solve the crime" and I did not want them to waste their time trying. But a rapid, pleasant, helpful response was an enormous comfort to me. The most upsetting interaction was a black officer telling my son (who had just been mugged for the third time) that there was nothing the police could do because "Local school are 90% black kids and they are the ones doing the mugging" My son was upset because 1) He has been raised right 2) He has been a victim of Equal Opportunity mugging and had previously seen no relationship between race and his attacks.
I'm not impressed by people who say "I don't want the police to be "nice" I want them to catch criminals" Every person who has been assaulted, insulted, abused or ignored by a police officer becomes alienated and this attitude may remain lifelong with serious implications.
If I had to chose my priorities in Lambeth I would say "Make the streets safe(r)" In order to do that, our whole community must be recruited - the "zero tolerance" must come from everyone, without that the police have no chance at all. I think astonishing progress has been made by the police towards the "hearts and minds" of our community but much needs to be done and it must be a continuing process. If Lambeth people saw police as our champions and protectors - if police cars were cheered and police officers supported in everyday interactions - much crime would vanish. It doesn't happen because (amongst other things)people are mistrustful, have memories and don't believe in the potential gains. There are VERY good reasons why people feel this way but progress towards a safer community will be very slow unless these issues are solved.
In the meantime - good luck Mr C!
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: drfranni ]
HHJW:
If this is truly Brian P with whom we are communicating
Ah, but I doubt that you are double "Happy" or from Wonderland on Button Moon, I have yet to see any evidence that you are called Jo either! In fact none of you really exist, you're all rampant AI programs let loose on the web: you're wintermute!
;)
TinyCrendon
29-01-2002, 07:56
.
Adam P:
Until you remove the financial profit its game over...dead punters, dead police, dead dealers, dead traffickers...
Quite. It's the ILLEGALITY of drugs that causes all the problems. I think all drugs should be decriminalised (not LEGALISED, which is slightly different). People will always take them. But if crack/smack are taken out of the hands of criminals, and addicts are dealt with by pharmacists/doctors etc. like they are in Holland, they will have far less chance of fucking up their own and other peoples' lives. It's the ILLEGALITY of drugs such as as crack and smack that have this enormous, far-reaching ripple effect of creating crime such as theft, robbery, knife/crime etc.
I'm not suggesting that we should be able to buy 'good quality' smack/crack in Tesco's alongside tobacco/drink, but we should take the whole situation away from the underground and disempower the evil bastards who peddle this stuff.
I think that only cannabis can realistically be legalised as it is relatively harmless. Most cannabis users don't resort to crime to feed their habit and cannabis is not a dangerous drug. You can't legalise crack or heroin though that is insane. The drug problem is bad enough as it is with those drugs already and the problem is not just caused by the dealers and traffickers, these are deadly highly addictive drugs that cause their users to commit vast amounts of crime in order to feed their habits! Legalising these drugs would allow the drug situation to spiral out of control completely. Organised crime would not simply leave the drugs trade if it was legalised either they have billions in profits at stake.
Thanks for that Commander, it seems that you do have a clear agenda on this issue and your heart is also in the right place. I look forward to hearing how some of your ideas develop and are translated into positive action on the streets.
Jo :)
TinyCrendon
29-01-2002, 10:25
.
William of Walworth
29-01-2002, 10:39
I am inclined to agree with steelgate here, to an extent anyway :confused:
I take Adam's point about what we're up against internationally. But as I and one or two others said in the Crack thread on the drugs board, I would like to hear an argument SPECIFIC TO CRACK that would persuade me that decriminalising it will reduce the social harm and surrounding crime, both far in excess now than that relating to any other (illegal) drug. I would need to be convinced they wouldn't continue or get worse.
Anyway, in the real world, it's not going to happen .. crack will be the very last one to get decriminalised.
So the scenario of increased tolerance (at least de facto) of cannabis but continued attempts to target the crack trade will I imagine be the main focus for this debate.
Plus other issues such as those Happy Jo raised ... how to reduce past alienation between the Police and the locals.
William of Walworth
29-01-2002, 10:45
When you give smack to people via a doctor they dont contuinue burgling/prostituting themselves because they dont need to, as has been seen with many experiments. Same with rocks...
Same with rocks as with heroin??? No expert me but the craving is so much more frequent and intense and psychotic and outwardly directed , often in dangerous ways???
I'm not convinced.. the evidence would be interesting.
I do agree with medically prescribed heroin for addicts but I also find it hard to cross that Rubicon of following the same policy with crack. Even people with liberal attitudes towards drugs, and more to the point Police and policy makers, would need more convincing I suspect.
Sorry .. this is a broader debate and really one for the drugs board, where it's already been raised, because as I said crack is NOT going to be decriminalised in the forseeable, so the Commander and us will be debating a scenario closer to the status quo.
Personally I would like to see a larger split between weed and harder drugs - not an original stance I know.
Therefore the purveyors of weed need to be separated from the sellers of other stuff.
Here is my initial thought:
1) Increased patrols & hassle of dealers in the "hot spots" of Coldharbour lane, Atlantic & Railton & the BR station - to drive them out.
2) an (obviously off the record) tacit agreement with the dealers that they can sell their smack and crack in a place that is slightly more cut off from the centre of town (St Mathews peace garden? / a part of Clapham common?). This would create space between them and the general population and would mean the users etc would move with them. (I have seen the way that the street walkers in Brixton tend to move to be close to their dealers). It would also avoid the problem that if you take one dealer out, another springs up to take his place and there would be less chance of passers by being hit by random gunfire.
3) Let small time weed dealing continue from those low profile retail outlets that I am sure the Commander is fully aware of. this gets the "casual" smoker away from dealers in other stuff.
I am sure that the above is riddled with problems (think what would happen to house prices in Clapham if there was large scale dealing on the common LOL :eek: ). but is there any sense at all in what I say?
william, when someone burgles you,leaves you paranoid in your own home who cares if it's for heroin or for for crack
:confused:
i see what you're saying about violence but both are still causing crime, i can't see how you can see an argument for heroin on prescription but not crack - surely violence is in fact worse than the loss of property and that's ignoring the psychological damage burglary can do
(sorry to hijack this thread somewhat, maybe take it to the crack scumbag drug thread instead)
drfranni
29-01-2002, 11:19
I agree that being burgled is very upsetting but:
1) I have no doubt I was burgled "casually" because I live so close to crack dealing - we are probably regarded as their cash machines
2) I would be content to live with the risk of burglary if I thought I could walk home from Brixton Centre Ville after an evening out without fear and that my children could come home from school or go to the corner shop without being attacked.
At the weekend, I sent my son to buy some cheese - he didn't return after 10 minutes, I RAN to the shop - no sign of him - I started to drive around, in a blind panic - only to discover that he had seen some dodgy looking peeps and had walked to another shop, about a mile away, to avoid them.
This is a sad way to live
TinyCrendon
29-01-2002, 11:19
.
This is where I am in danger of getting into real hot water! As a police officer I have to say that legalisation/decriminalisation is a matter for politicians not police officers. Not being cynical but politicians always have this dilemma: do the right thing but if it's not popular and you lose votes, you lose power and then you cannot do anything. Do the popular thing, win votes and keep power and you could end up doing the wrong thing because there are more votes in it. Does that mean politicians make decisions on the basis of how many votes it will win/lose them or on the basis that it is clearly the right thing to do (or only when the two coincide)? Change in the law on anything except cannabis - no chance. Is it right to decriminalise, strictly control, licence, ... maybe some things.
There has been no treatment for cociane/crack addiction until now but I got an e-mail today about a tablet dervied from cocaine that has been developed that might provide a safer alternative to crack. If this is the case, then maybe strictly controlled treatment with heroin and this new stuff might be something worth doing. Whatever we think, I think the whole thing about decriminalisation fails the 'number of votes' test and is likely to fo some years yet! Got to keep pushing on those boundaries!
William of Walworth
29-01-2002, 11:38
I'll let others respond to the Commander, but I agree with bang .. part of this debate should be shifted back to the drugs forum.
I'm pro total decriminalisation, as I feel that it would be the only effective way for controlling drug supply and demand, and therefore allowing access to the users. especially if supply is given at below street prices, but I also understand that any political party that tried to push this through in one stage wouldn't last the next election and the law would be repealled immediately.
I am also sure that total decriminalisation would lead to "the wrong message" being passed down to the general public who, as a rule, want to get off their tits as much as possible without fear of social stigma.
An education package needs to be in place that accurately informs people about the "highs" and "lows" of drug use (both legal and illegal) and deals with the perils of addiction. Once this is in place for a few years, then can we move towards total decriminalisation.
Didn't Blunkett make statements about Heroin becoming available through GPs again? And when does Cannabis become a Class C drug?
drfranni
29-01-2002, 11:49
Edited because should be in drug forum -if anywhere, which I doubt
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: drfranni ]
TinyCrendon
29-01-2002, 12:02
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drfranni
29-01-2002, 12:07
You want a police force that MAKES the laws??? You want a police force that is 100% in favour of all current laws and all government policies???????
I think there is a name for places like that ...lemme think..... oh yes, fascist/communist/name-an-ist dictatorships
Long live an independant, namby pamby, liberal police force
johnwisehammer
29-01-2002, 12:07
Although I agree with a lot of what Adam and other posters have said, I'm tempted to think that perhaps we're not exploiting The Commandant's presence here in the best way by making generally-applicable statements, even if they're true. Maybe we ought to tighten in on very focussed Lambeth issues? But on the other hand, isn't this what it's all about?
:confused:
corporate whore
29-01-2002, 12:31
I'm in with JohnW here - The Commander may wield a lot of power, but the legalisation of hard drugs on a grand scale is not one of them - can we keep this discussion on the drugs board and talk about local issues?
The idea for a 'designated dealing zone' is pretty good, like Hamburg's street of whores..
More later
TinyCrendon
29-01-2002, 12:36
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drfranni
29-01-2002, 12:50
"Why be so irresonsible to become a police officer undertaking laws over which you have no control ?" That was the quote which make me think - wrongly it would seem - that you felt that police officers should have control over the law
I'm sorry that you consider me patronising - and have no idea why you want to make this a "personal" issue "Hope you dont touch any of that addictive junk you deal (see methadone)..." is pretty offensive by any standard
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: drfranni ]
William of Walworth
29-01-2002, 13:06
Adam that was REALLY offensive ... :mad:
I agree with JWH ... let's stick to local issues ... the rest can and should go to the drugs forum.
Since I started this, and like several here, I live in the middle of Brixton, I'd like to put my foot down abit on this thread.
This is about Lambeth, and specifically Brixton.
Please can we keep to the subject of drug and gun crime and the local area. If you want to talk more generally please start another thread on the drugs board.
This is an all to rare opportunity for Brixton people to talk directly to a high-ranking Police Officer - the Chief Commander for Lambeth.
Adam P (and others), I hope you can respect this by taking general anger and suspicion of the Police to another thread.
I am not naive about the Police, but we will be wasting the Commander's presence here if we go on the attack. And as he has said, much of this argument is about politics, not local policing.
So let's keep focused on this. Thankyou.
Commander, it hasn't come up yet much. But how are you getting on with getting more ethnic minority officers at Brixton? And how are you getting on with removing racist officers, educating those inexperienced with dealing with the panoply of people they'll meet in Brixton and generally building trust across the local community? There are still incidents of racist policing in Brixton. I don't even think they are that rare sadly. (Accepting that there are some very decent Police too).
I am aware of the initiative whereby you've got volunteer local black men coming in to the Police station and "telling it like it is". (A couple of friends are doing this) How's that going?
The council seem to be neglecting provision for youth/teenagers in the area. (For instance the neglect of Dexter Square). This contributes to youngsters going off the rails and becoming criminals IMO (of course there are other factors). What can the Police do with Lambeth Council to encourage the council to provide youth facilities?
By the way, which gay clubs do you go to? (Oh OK, you needn't answer that one).
;)
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: hatboy ]
drfranni
29-01-2002, 13:42
Hatboy - doesn't it all seem like a vicious circle? Even if Lambeth provided some services my children would like to use, they would be too frightened to walk there, so the services are underused, so the council doesn't support them OR they are used only by people who have the time to drive the children there and stay with them (ie not single working parents) Most of the street crime near me seems to be perpetrated (?spelling) by children and so many of us keep our children "safe" by confining them to a room, a telly and computer games. If our streets were full of strong, confident children, these nasty little thugs wouldn't have a chance - and the crack dealers might think twice too.
lol! :) (erk! I meant 'lol' at Hatboy)
Yes, its the groups of kids roaming the streets that are the scary ones. Plus the dealers. Though it's those who carry knives and guns who are the worst. What in God's name can be done about gun possession? No-one can argue with a gun. That recent incident where two men in a scuffle fired a shot and the bullet went into a passing woman's stomach is an example. It could've been any of us walking down Tulse Hill at 8.30pm that Sunday. My housemates were popping in and out of the shop exactly where it happened. People just don't feel safe anymore.
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: han ]
wildwildlifer
29-01-2002, 16:59
I quote the Commander " we have arrested 50 street dealers in the last 12mths". So don't expect us to be overwhelmed at less than 1 street dealer a week being hauled in throughout Lambeth. With such a low arrest rate no wonder there are a flood of volunteers to take their place. Its only by upping the arrest rate that the flow of new dealer recruits will be staunched.
By the way I accept the case for legalisation of all drugs as the only long-term answer. The human need to get off one's face now and then is as old as mankind and prohibition never worked.Everyone should be given drug credit cards so habits can be monitored and intervened in a non-criminalistic setting.
Spraying weedkiller over 3rd World countries as Monsanto/Novartis/Bush are doing in Colombia on a huge scale kills zillions of hard-pressed wildlife whilst not addressing the basic problem of demand. Just wait till the butterflies get organised! :eek:
johnwisehammer
29-01-2002, 17:51
Commander - these are questions which are pressing for some boroughs at the moment but they may be non-issues in the case of Lambeth.
- how many (if any) of your officers are being diverted to "anti-terrorism" duties outside Lambeth?
- how is recruitment and retention of female officers (at all ranks) doing?
Thanks.
<deleted: didn't realise the thread had two pages> :rolleyes:
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Naked Vole Primpa ]
Johnny Canuck
29-01-2002, 18:33
Commander, I'm not a 'local', but my city, Vancouver, B.C., has a similar problem with street dealing of crack.
An area of our city resembles a combat zone, with Central American teenagers dealing to a population you describe as 'chaotic drug users'.
The dealers deal openly; there is no mistaking what they are up to.
To date, the local police have conducted two 'sweeps', wherein they arrest 50 - 100 people on drugs and immigration charges.
Like London, they are back on the streets in awhile, or someone new takes their place.
Still, I can't help but feel that if the police made routine busts, on a daily or weekly basis, the hassle would cause the dealers to move on. It appears that the 'sweeps' occur more for media and political points, as opposed to real enforcement.
It's true that busting the dealers won't stop them, so long as there is a demand.
However, shouldn't the effort be made?
The police routinely stop speeding drivers, even though there is no hope of eradicating that aspect of human behaviour. But the enforcement helps to keep it within bounds.
Wouldn't routine enforcement against street dealers have the same effect?
I note that one of the suburban cities, New Westminster, had a serious problem with dealers operating at the subway stations.
The police there began stopping and arresting these dealers on sight; they soon moved on. Yes, they moved to a different area within the larger metropolitan area, but that is one where the police enforcement isn't so certain.
Would these tactics not work for you in your jurisdiction?
Wow, coming as a simple westcountry boi this thread is something of a turnip for the books, wish we had intelligent and articulate coppers in Brissol ;)
AP - can't you get off your soap box and be practical for a moment?
Short of totally re-ordering the state would you rather have somone with the views and intentions The Commander has expressed or some 'zero tolerance' (the self-evident idiocy of that phrase is hilarious) fuckwit in charge?
To get clichéd for a moment, this level of interaction is the revolution, the net's an enabler of all that great stuff you want to see, don't start pissing all over people trying something new before you've given them a chance.
Good luck to you all, I just hope you can sort some of this mess out cos it's getting pretty fucked up everywhere.
FridgeMagnet
29-01-2002, 19:42
I have asked the police union reps. (Police Federation) to come up with a list of things the cops think should not be tolerated in Lambeth and those things that we should be more relaxed about (we cannot enforce every single law all of the time). I have put cannabis (small amounts for personal use) in the second column. What would you put in each column? I have told the unions I will ask you what your big beefs are and then compare the two lists to see where we can agree on priorities.
I think this is an excellent question. Maybe we could start a whole new thread on it?
(Incidentally, I mailed a link to this thread to my stepmother, who's spoken to Brian Paddick in the past. She says The Commander definitely sounds like him... but she was surprised that the press hadn't gotten hold of it and caused a fuss.)
when you appear again, hope you can address my points Commander?
twisted nerve
29-01-2002, 22:06
Why be so irresonsible to become a police officer undertaking laws over which you have no control ?
There is a strong argument for keeping the separation of powers within our legal system. The last thing we need is e.g. politicians deciding on sentencing, etc. Didn't Michael Howard try, and (rightly) fail to do this?
web page (http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/web/PHWebContent.nsf/1cb4957331f940abca2568170016396e/31aeed1097592aa0ca25693000316ab1?OpenDocument)
Sorry, but there is another thread for ancilliary topics. :) Thanks.
twisted nerve
29-01-2002, 22:40
That's the problem with Usenet, though.
<edited to add: I forgot this isn't Usenet, lol.>
[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: twisted nerve ]
did anyone see trading races last night?
showed the white guy painted black walking down coldharbour lane, you could have played spot the dealer it was so blatant even on television... :rolleyes:
Hatboy I can sort of answer a bit of your question. A certain Fubu wearer you know has been going regularly to meetings in Peckham that the police have organised, basically they invite local ethnic people to come along and talk openly and blatently about any issues concerning race etc. that they have with the Police, lunch and £15 thrown in. I think this sort of initiative is to be appauded its just a shame that it wasn't advertised better as Mr Fubu was quite often the only one there!
He is in fact at Hendon today taking part in racial training to new recruits from all around the country some of whom have never really had to deal with any one from other cultures, but who could well be placed in a London borough.
It seems quite a small but positive step to helping eradicate racism from the force
:confused: :)
Hi
My 2cents on how to clean up drug crime in Brixton and I hope the Commander is listening.
Increase the holding Cells at Gatwick Airport..
Customs are allowing large numbers of suspected “Swallower’s” through due to not having enough resource to hold them for the eventual movement. My understanding is that there are only 3-7 holding cells at Gatwick.
Traffickers are aware of this limit and are filling flights with “Swallower’s” in the certainty that some will
get through.
Nic
TinyCrendon
30-01-2002, 13:25
[ I'll take back the methadone insult. (Its sick that docs hand it out tho) But not the patronising bit. If you dont want a reaction argue on the points I make not the ones I dont make. ]
The drug trade is NOT fuelled by small time no-marks flying in from JA with half a ki in their stomachs. This is street nothingness. An irrelevancy.
The real players bring in tonnage. Tonnes of gear. They are, in the main, organised criminals of the blue chip variety, governments and senior business people (see the arrest for example of the Pakistani shipping magnate with 12 tonnes of weed and smack on his barge in Copenhagen in 1999)
You can go on nicking the poor and weak for ever and you will NEVER stop drugs.
The drug trade is the third biggest on the planet and it ENDS UP IN BANKS. Not under someones bed in cash. It is a neccesity for the econmies of many countries.
This sort of naivety about the drug trade, the reason it is criminalised in the first place, and who benefits from the trade (mainly banks) is just plain out of date.
Drugs are polictical. They are the worlds second cuirrency behind the dollar with TRILLIONS of $$$ activity all over the word.
Its the biggest trade in Mexico outstripping the next three combined, it is 55% of Bolivia's GDP, in 1984 the UN estimated that drug money was BANKED at the rate of $2m AN HOUR, one of the biggest UK city banks is a drug bank, one of the biggest banks in the Americas is a drug bank run by a man who is the biggest drug profiteer in the world (and who met with Fox and Clinton after Fox became pres of mexico).
Why, for example, did Mike Grasso, head of the bank of New York fly into FARC land in order to meet Raul Reyes. So FARC - the peeps whop have legalised coca in Colombia -would bank with them. They refused.
Or one can fritter around at the edges going "ooh arent poor crack users scum. Lets make weed a class C."
You legalise everything or you give up.
The drug trade is NOT fuelled by small time no-marks flying in from JA with half a ki in their stomachs. This is street nothingness. An irrelevancy.
Well Is it down Brixton way, stuffing represents a big source of coke to the "Jamaican" dealers...
I doubt they would go to the bother to bring in coke in this way if they had access to people with tons available. They probably don't have this access as the reputation for random irational violence precedes them.
TinyCrendon
30-01-2002, 14:23
OK, stuufing/mules account for some drugs, of course. But they are not the big carriers. If you want to stop drugs in JA you go to politicans and the armed services who are the biggest drug runners. Instead efforts are focussed on the "street level" dealer, most often poor fucked up dudes (and yes they may well be wankers too) who are effectively chancing it.
See how many of those type of importers end up jail. Plenty. See how many of the proper players/profiteers end up in jail. Very rare.
Im sure you all know these sites/journalists but check the work of Gary Webb, Cele Castillo, Al Giordiano (www.narconews.com) for the reality of the trade.
I guess thats why i get worked up by peeps like The Kommondant who are so `in the way` its untrue...otherwise the combination of drug-war advocates, politicans and police are going to mean so many more dead, jailed, fucked up and bereaved individuals...
As far as I know the main (not some)transfer of Cocaine from JA to Brixton is via mules. Given the choice of 1000 mules, a tenth of which are not going to get through and one large shipment with the chance of loosing everything, I know the method I would choose?
I standby my comments that improvements in the holding facilities will cut down on the amount of Cocaine to Crack in Brixton. This will not stop the drug trade but will stem the current loop-whole and once realised hopefully stop the extortion/jailing of recruited Jamaicans as mules.
nic - i hear what you're saying about more holding cells - but do you think that's a permanent solution?
No one has offered a possible solution to this problem apart from legalisation yet
[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: bang ]
johnwisehammer
30-01-2002, 15:19
No offence (and to bring the topic off-topic even more) but that holding cells thing sounds suspiciously like something that gets leaked by the POA and PolConfed just before wage negotiations come up. (Fact: HMCE officers get paid extra to watch people shit in airports).
Bang
Not a permanent solution, but the Custom and Excise staff have been requesting more holding cells for this specific problem for a long period of time. I would go far as saying that the high number of known mules getting through is what’s escalating Brixton crack/violence problem. More holding cells will not stop Brixton’s problems, but from what I’m hearing it’s a massive loop hole which has been too long in addressing.
Agree with your point made about legalisation but I feel the polictical impact is just to sensible for all the worlds goverments to realise at once. Remember listening to old Douglas rambling on about this in the film 'Traffic'
nic
Johnny Canuck
30-01-2002, 15:52
Adam, you talk sense.
Does anyone have any dollar figures for the size of the coke business in London per year? My guess is, it's in the billions.
How many mules must you stuff to bring in a billion dollars' worth of coke?
No doubt it happens, but to get that kind of tonnage, you must send it through in ship containers, etc, just like they do here.
There's too much money to be made from drugs, to risk any of it being flushed down the toilet.
For fuck's sake start some other threads! Thanks so much for respecting my wishes to stay on topic guys!! :rolleyes: :(
I respectfully request that people who don't live in or know Brixton could leave this alone abit. PLEASE.
As I used to live in Brixton and I still often socialise there, on behalf of Hatboy, I shall bring the thread back to local issues.
People in Brixton street deal because they live in poverty and dealing is an effective way of making a living, and as they are otherwise criminalised at a very early age they have little to lose anyway.
People get addicted to smack and crack because it is one of very few escapes from otherwise stinking, miserable lives.
Peasants in South America and Asia produce narcotics because in a harsh international marketplace, it is the only effective way of using their land to support their families. (Oh dear, I seem to have moved out of Brixton).
Meanwhile, it doesn't take rocket science to work out that the drug trade in Brixton or elsewhere is not driven by Jamaican single mothers opting for the pre-flight dinner service, but by big business and banks, and by implication politicians and the worlds security and police forces that support them. (Oh no, I've moved even further out of Brixton. But wait, I shall return there)
Brixton is not an island. The same forces that fuck up the lives of people in Brixton, are the same forces that squeeze the breath out of the world's peasants. Brixton doesn't have a crime problem, it has a socio-economic problem, just like the rest of the world.
Commander Paddick - you are obviously well meaning, and believe your role as a policeman restricts your attention to Lambeth. Indeed, gentrification ie. cleaning up the streets, may make some residents lives more bearable, improve your statistics, promotion perhaps, but it will just move the problem elsewhere. Your role as a human being, however, compels you to see the bigger picture. Many people who read and post on these boards are politically active both in local, Brixton issues, and in wider international issues. In truth they are essentially
different versions of the same thing. If you really want to make a difference then can I suggest that as a human being, you join the side of the weak and meak. And that as a policeman, you stop kicking the shit out of us on demos, and stop supporting the rich, the powerful, and the power structure, that ulimately brings misery onto the streets of Brixton.
And make sure you pull an honest pint at the weekend whilst your wife is out horseriding!!
;)
(Long story)
TinyCrendon
31-01-2002, 10:40
Nice one slowdog.
Hatboy - I dont think it went off topic quite as much as you feared. Surely (and in a political sense too) this is a good example of `thinking locally acting globally`. Or at least `thinking locally and globally`dont you...er...think.
When one gets an (alleged) opportunity to `talk` face to face with someone who says he is the Kommondant, its an opportunity however fleeting to put down the view that international drug policy DIRECTLY affects brixton, lambeth and of course every area of the UK. Dont you think so ?
Thomas A - A couple of years ago there was some debate in the media about the size of the UK drug market and its contribution to GDP/GNP. (Although it was a pretty flippant media debate like we get in the UK). I honestly didnt see any truly reliable figures though peolpe settled on a figure of around £8-10bn p/a as my memory serves me.
One of the strongest arguments for decriminalisation is the economic argument. If, under present circumstances, the Uk somehow eliminated all illegal drugs it would therefore cost the economy something in that region, £8-10bn per year. Which would be an economic disaster for the UK. Now imagine you are in Bolivia and its 55% of GDP. It is UNREMOVABLE BY ANYONE.
To simplify it somewhat the `War On Drugs` is that right wing people want control of the drug trade. (Colombia. Afghanistan, Burma, The Americas in general) Control it, profit from it and criminalise the population at the same time. Perfect. And that is what happens.
Streathamite
31-01-2002, 11:19
I'm OK with: Cannabis, Ecstasy
NOT OK with: Heroin, Crack, Ketamine.
Cocaine, it strikes me, is problematical. On the basis that many cocaine users are precisely those casual Weekend users who do not constitute a threat to public safety or good order (this seems to me to be the fault-line between "OK with" and "not OK with" ) - Crack users and dealers
are very much a menace, and VERY bad news for Brixton's long-suffering, public. Squaring this circle will help greatly.
TinyCrendon
31-01-2002, 13:16
Red Jezza - so you want to keep the coke/heroin situation the same then. you think its working like this ? has locking up millions (worldwide) kept the drugs off your streets?
What do you think should be done to change the situ for the better ?
Streathamite
31-01-2002, 13:31
Check PMs Adam, please
Enjoyed your post Slowdog.
Where the hell is The Commander? Do you think he's been advised not too continue this. It wouldn't surprise me.
Slowdog - what happened to you? You don't answer my PM's and despite saying how much you liked Brixton, you seem to have left shortly after moving here. What happened? Haven't seen you anywhere.
TinyCrendon
31-01-2002, 13:50
`The Commander` doesnt have any answers, wont contemplate thinking for himself, blames other people (politicians/the public) for not wanting change but at the same time adheres strictly to what they tell him to do and refuses to debate ("ooh i'm in hot water"). Just in a very nice liberal way.
Thats what liberals do, its why OB appoint them so its all sounds good and the same shit continues. Just Blairite policing. If the Commander were able to think for himself he wouldnt adhere to the gang structure he is in. Dont be suckered by him (assuming he is who he says he is which im afraid i still doubt - but we'll try and debate him as if he is).
Streathamite
31-01-2002, 17:52
1) Adam - The Commander is who he says he is. I have the proof in my inbox.
2) I take your points as regards fence-sitting "liberal" offricialdom (at least you know where you are with a 100% pure bastard in uniform!) - but he's gone further than any copper (or politician-in-government) I can think of in bringing something approaching a hint of realism and common sense to the absurdity/nightmare of drugs legislation/policing. No, it's notmuch. but it's something, and more than I've seen before, or elsewhere (to repeat myself)....
3
you think its working like this ? has locking up millions (worldwide) kept the drugs off your streets?
No it isn't working-but legalisation, certainly of Heroin, possibly of coke, may well be even more disastrous. I don't see how you can legalise consumption, without legalising purchase, and therefore sale, and therefore supply, and therefore distribution, and therefore importation. And who would you grant such licence to? Big Business? (M & S-branded heroin - now with free needle! no thanks). The State? Even on a non-profit basis, no government and no state could be trusted with such a power-especially not on a monopoly basis.
The Medical Profession? what starts in the hands of compassionate, ethical physicians would end up in those of NHS Bureaucrats - another nightmare scenario
Mr Corner Shop? within 6 weeks not one of them could afford their newly-stratospheric insurance premiums!
So No, Adam, It's not working. But yes, for now keep it this way as the least awful alternative, whilst trying whatever can be done to shift the emphasis to healthcare, cure, prevention etc.
Very, very imperfect approach,I know - just can't see any other as that much better.
Red Jezza - your argument appears to be thus. Don't legalise heroin because it would be disastrous and worse than the present situation. So how exactly would it (could it) be worse?
Is it just because, as you imply, that we can't work out how it would be traded? That seems to me a poor argument. Some people might even call that a tautology ie. not an argument at all. Adam, on the other hand, has made a very good argument. If you disagree with him, then you have to challenge the assumptions and reasoning in his argument, and not just make a counter-statement, sit back, and say there thats settled. Some people might call that reactionary. ;)
TinyCrendon
01-02-2002, 09:20
Red Jezza - Cheers for the reply. Cant say I agree w/you though. I think keeping things the same is simply a recipie for an American-type situation very soon. Lots of people in jail, lots of crack on the streets, lots of death. But I'm sorry to say I think that is EXACTLY what powerful people want. Maybe not in the forefront of their minds but in the notion that if someone is a drug addict and/or difficult to deal with or a street dealer then prison is the traditional option.
It seems pretty perverse that `treatment` and so on starts mainly AFTER addiction and sometimes, though not often, in jail. A bit late then.
The methods of distribution are indeed the crux of the matter. Ive been on the radio with far better informed dudes than myself from Release (and other lot whose name Ive rudely forgot) and they taught me a lot.
Firstly each drug has to be taken individually.
You wouldnt lump treatment for alcohol and tobacco into one basket for example, no alcohol patches etc etc.
So you work on the best method of treatment/prevention/distribution method per drug. Heroin would come through doctors (see various succesful cases of prescribed smack, notably in Glasgow) for example. Even though popular opinion says people cant survive and have lives whilst using heroin it aint true, it has to be measured (doseage), it has to be given free to stop them burgling/prostituting etc.
Marijuana laws - well, that argument is done IMO.
Ecstasy - testing, education. Or go on letting millions of kids take amateur chemicals every weekend. Distribution, well, I would bite the bullet here and have special regulated shops (a la alcohol in Sweden), others say str8 government outlets (fantasy IMO) others say through doctors. I think in these cases its about amount per week/month etc. So it would be impossible to buy 50,000 Es over the counter for example.
Cocaine - in many ways crack (through doctors a la smack) is easier than powder cocaine. The `recreational` majority who dont develop serious problems using powder are difficult to fathom in terms of distrib. The stuff was legal and available from Chemists remember up to the 1940s (check that date it may have been later), my Grandad for example was a big fan of the tonics that had smack and cocaine in (no wonder). Of course he despised all drug users. I would venture the E shop option above but it is a hard one (see note at bottom of page).
To me though the hardest drug to work with is one hardly mentioned at all: LSD. So unpredictable in its effects yet so strong. Unaddictive (yes we all know `casualties` but it aint the same) yet heavily hallucinogenic. Coulod people go and buy 50 tabs, what if they took em all, is it pesonal responsibility? Its more that most drugs have a SIMILAR effect on DIFFERENT peeps, wheras LSD has DIFFERENT effects on the SAME peeps from one tab 2 another (within reason etc etc).
But look RJ etc Im a journo not a drug distrib expert, I suggest you take it further and look at experts (such as Realease) who can take the distribution argument a little further and offer you some more ideas to inject...er...chew on....
ciao
To all/The Kommondant: check these sites for the realities of the drug `war`, off the top of my head:
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/os99001.pdf - if you want to see about certain banks etc...
www.copvcia.com
www.narconews.com
http://www.guerrillanews.com/crack/links.html
Red Jezza - Prohibition isn't working here in Brixton or elsewhere. People are only just starting to have a real debate about what we should replace it with. And no we don't want transnationals peddling dope IMO.
Some of the key thinking within the UK is now happening in connection with something called the Angel Declaration - see the following site:
http://www.angeldeclaration.com/declaration.htm
Some of the solutions are obvious and probably not so controversial (e.g. weed - probably treat it much like alcohol - availability thru off licenses and homegrown) but for other substances notably heroin/crack there is more need for debate. Given that people use crack in Brixton and will continue to do so regardless of Brian's best efforts what would we replace the existing gun-infested system with? What could a post-prohibition system of crack availability look like in Brixton? Could we propose something that would be better than what we've got?
I know this is general drugs debate territory but also believe some of the key thinking has to come bottom up from places where people live with this stuff. Think global...
BTW much respect to Brian for being here.
Dear Nelly
Thank you for your message
I was one of the Author's of the Angel Declaration!
It was initiated by an ex-lawyer businessman, who gathered a group of full-on reformers together, and that was the result. It was very tough for me as an ex-addict, widowed by AIDS to not push for a bigger section on Harm Reduction - treatment, AIDS prevetnion etc, but I think my peers managed to convince me that the section on it was big enough..
Are you involved in any of the growing reform initiatives? If you aren't but want to be, please let me know. I can sure find you a man who will(!) - if u catch my drift!
Great to know you are out there
Till next time
Andria
Dear Nelly,
I see you were up at 8.32 am working - well you must be commited; you should definitely join one of our industrious gangs of reformers, if at all possible.
You say something in response to Red Jezza about not wanting IMO 'peddling drugs.' Mmh, first of all, I'm not convinced they are not already involved with it (but have no proof so better shut up)
But much more importantly, it is very likely that when the drug laws do change the economic beneficiaries will be the multi-nationals and so on. It is inevitable. Yes, this is hard to accept, for ALL socialist reformers.
However, we could - if motivated - make that less a home-goal for them by beginning now to plan small-cooperatives of medical marijuana folk and so on. This is already happening, though some police are wasting our precious taxes arresting these guys, I suspect that this whole thing will continue to progress. Indeed, many feel that it might be just a case of capitulation of the state, as it's too difficult for them to drop their pride and say this law is daft!
Personally, I'm open. I've seen extraordinary acts of goodness, humility, and pragmatic compassion (as well as inane and unspeakable cruelty) so I really cannot predict
I only know we need to keep on keeping on, and anger must be only a part of the energy that fules us: when we speak to people who clearly do not know any better, we have to reach into their minds and hearts and understand their fears and what their resistance to these changes is about.
Drugs-demonisation/brain-washing has been happening for eons, and is deeply ingrained in ALL of our psyches. It's a long road but...
I can feel a song coming on
One more thing about Brixton: does this sound very naive??Should a few of us 'streety activists' go down and give the influx - if that is at all true - of NEW crack dealers - a polite chat about not f-ing it up for the rest of us; "if it works in Brixton, it could be done throughout the country, and so on."??
DO ANSWER THIS ONE. I ain't doing it on my own anyway
And Alan J - don't be so fliming cheeky!! Tee-hee ('c u' on other list Tues..)AND where's Brian Paddick gone?
Love and solidarity
andria (efthimiou-mordaunt)
Users Voice Ed
I know this won't inspire you with confidence but I left my password at work and not knowing quite what I was doing accidentally changed my post name to 'Brian' from 'The Commander'. Still, I feel more comfortable with this. Those who want to check it out can go back to old posts to see The Commander had changed to 'Brian'.
Now guys, you might find this hard to believe but I am really busy and do not have as much time as I would like to be with you all. It would be great to meet up, face to face, socially and have a real discussion but I am not sure that is allowed:confused:
Adam, I was so irresponsible as to join the police when I was 18. Have your views matured and developed since you were 18? When mine did and I became increasingly concerned about the police and what we were about I though to myself I have 2 choices. Either influence the team from the field of play, become captain some day maybe, or stand on the sidelines and shout. What would be more effective? So I am on the team, playing and influencing. I think you and Ken Livingstone have got something though. I think, with the right safeguards against political control, the local police commander should be held to account for policing his/her areas and recruited/sacked on the basis of doing a good job. I am held to account (should be, it has been a bit of a mess lately) first Tuesday of every month at Lambeth Town Hall, Room 8 at 6pm. Be there or be square. (Not March though I'm on holiday!)
Hatboy - ethnic minority recruiting is better than it was. Peeps are recruited centrally and then sent out to all parts of London. I get no choice as to who I get and it would be against the law to send black recruits to specific areas - discrimination on the grounds of race. There is nothing that makes my blood boil more than racist police officers. I cannot comment on a couple of high profile cases that are still going through the discipline process but we PROSECUTE racist and violent criminals who wear police uniforms. Racist policing is rare in Lambeth (unfortunately not exstinct). Someone has already found out which gay club I go to and is trying to cause SERIOUS shit for me. It's nice to be popular!!
Johnw - we were suffering in Lambeth having to send large numbers of officers to Central London but it has calmed down now. We have very high numbers of female recruits.
Johnny - regular hits on the dealers are not easy. They are getting really aggressive with us at the moment and making death threats against the officers in the front line.
Longtoe - we need to do more about officers' attitudes towards black people, all people who are seen as 'different' from the officers. Allowing them to mix with 'different' people in non-conflict situations is a good move. Giving a mixed team of police officers and BEM people a task to do together is one of the best ways. Let me take these ideas away and have a play with them.
Things are fundamentally different from when I joined 25 years ago but there is always room for improvement. Select one of my offficers at random and you've got a very good chance that s/he won't be racist.
Slowdog - you are right. Most people caught up with drugs are victims of the big dealers. The punters, the street dealers, the mules - they are all exploited. The main reason is poverty - the feeling there is no 'legitimate' way of earning a living so you may as well deal crack. Wrong, misguided and destructive but that's what we've done to these people.
nicnic - this is about criminals full stop. This is not a race issue. This is about poor people being exploited who happen to live on the importation line. Locking up everyone coming in from Jamaica is not the answer.
Drfranni - more youth provision is not really for your kids. It is for the muggers and those at risk of getting into mugging. If they have something better to do, then it will be safer for your kids and the rest of us.
Brian aka 'The Commander'
:)
johnwisehammer
02-02-2002, 20:39
Thanks for making a concerted effort to reply to lots of peeps.
Yes, it is appreciated Brian. Good post. I think you have a lot of support locally. I've never really looked up to a member of the Police force before, but you do have my respect.
Andria - I really don't think having a polite chat with crack dealers and telling them to move along now and not fuck it up for the rest of us would work. At the very least you would be told to fuck off, possibly beaten up and if you were persistent enough you could probably get yourself shot.
I don't know why Cannabis is still ilegal, as this is far from a dangerous drug, it is a wolrd away from harmful drugs like cocaine and heroin. Cannabis users don't fund their habit by crime and cannabis is anything like as addictive as those drugs either. It also wastes police time and the time of the courts in prosecuting cannabis users, when that time could be spent fighting dangerous dealing in dangerous drugs. In America most of the people in prison from Americas war on drugs are harmless cannabis users! This is a complete utter waste of time and resources!
This is a very difficult issue for Brixton. The market stall holders, the shop owners and the overhelming majority of the people of Brixton support my officers attempts to rid the streets of the drug dealers. Someone gave information that a dealer was operating but when officers moved in, the same person was in the crowd making out he was hostile to what the police were doing. When the show was over, he went up to the officers and apologised that he had to join in or the dealers would get him. It is blatant intimidation of ordinary people. Yes it is dangerous to stand up to these people but unless we can think of ways where we can all stand together, so they are out-numbered and realise that everyone is against them, we are not going to get them shifted.
There has to be a priority list of what the police deal with. That is not to say that you can blow cannabis smoke in an officer's face and expect him/her to ignore you. They won't!
We have analysed the results of pilot in Lambeth not to arrest people for small amounts of cannabis for personal use. Results should be out w/c 11 February. I cannot say what the results are but... ;) .
The Home Secretary saw the report on Friday and is taking it into account in deciding whether to reclassify cannabis from Class B to Class C... BUT BE WARNED! Whilst there would be no automatic power of arrest if it goes to Class C, you could still be reported and still get (a maximum of) 2 years imprisonment. If you refuse your name & address you could still get nicked for it. We are a long way from legalisation/decriminalisation.
Brian
It is evident that heroin could be shifted partly or wholly into the medical domain as an alternative to the current system by which it is available. For prohibitionists and reformers alike solutions to problematic crack use and all that goes with it present the hardest challenge.
In your experience of policing crack use in Brixton do you have a sense of any way in which its availability could be regulated that might improve on the current situation? (I'm talking radical thought experiments here - not feasible policies for next week). As a public health specialist I don't get to see much of the enforcement end of things and would genuinely welcome your thoughts.
Just say if this question is too sensitive to answer here. I appreciate that it might be. If so that's OK. I am not interested in the Met's view here but your personal opinion and the development of models that might be long term goals within the drug reform movement.
BTW I am new on the Urban75 site and finding my way around. Hopefully my profile and details are visible. I can also be contacted privately (by you or anyone else) at work on:
n.hunt@ukc.ac.uk
TinyCrendon
04-02-2002, 17:54
.
Adam - I have to be careful. As people have said before, expressing my views here could end-up in the Press or on my bosses desks!
The trouble with legalising drugs is it will inevitably result in more people trying them. I am sure many people are put off because they are illegal. A certain percentage of the population have what I call addictive personalities i.e. they cannot have just one drink but become alcoholics, cannot just use drugs at weekends but drugs take over their lives. There would inevitably be more addicts.
The benefits of legalising drugs are that you could regulate them (over 18s for example), ensure they are pure, clean needles, and so on. The long-term health effects e.g. heart problems from cocaine, would remain but many of the bad side-effects e.g. HIV would reduce. You would also take much of the profit out of it so maybe people would not shoot each other over drug deals. You would still get some people stealing to buy drugs even if they were 'officially' available.
Someone came to see me on Friday and said that a new batch of drug dealers had taken over parts of Brixton pushing the established dealers out. The displaced dealers had to earn a living so they have switched to street robbery. I don't know if it's true but there is always the chance that legalising drugs would just push criminals into some other activity as harmful if not more harmful to the community.
What do I really think? We need to help those people who, if they knew they were going to get addicted, would never have started, to get off the stuff. We need to take the criminality out of it by legalisation and strict control. We need to educate people as to the effects drugs will have on them short term/long term and allow those old enough to know better to make their own decisions about what they do to their bodies.
Nelly, as I have said before, apparently they have developed a cocaine-based tablet that might help with crack/cocaine addiction. I understand that physical crack addiction can be overcome more easily than physical heroin addiction (rather than psychological addiction which is worse in crack).
Johnny Canuck3
04-02-2002, 22:35
Brian, the idea of dealers making death threats against police officers is foreign and offensive to Canadians.
As you know, our police carry guns. And as it is anywhere, the range of opinion about the police varies, but most people recognize that they do a hard job, on our behalf.
People who try to kill police officers here are met with equal force by the police, with the backing of the public.
If your criminals are becoming aggressive to that extent, perhaps the time has come to arm the average cop on the street.
Johnny - please keep any debate on this subject relevant to Brixton and its unique social circumstances.
Brian
It wasn't the treatment issues I was asking about. I am familiar with what local services do, such as the excellent Stockwell Project which is a beacon service as far as working with crack users (we don't always realise how lucky we are to have such a humane, progressive service on our doorstep), And I follow the wider treatment literature myself (and am personally pessimistic about any treatment that will be a magic bullet). The drug field heralds these periodically but I've been in this business a while and they rarely fulfil their promise. What I am interested in is the detail of how we might do what you refer to in your reply:
"The benefits of legalising drugs are that you could regulate them"
I absolutely agree with this principle. However desirable it may be in theory, policing crack out of existence is a chimaera. Pandora's box is open and we can't put it back in. And I am sure we could improve on the way crack is currently available and reduce the harm to crack users and the much larger majority of non-crack users in Brixton. But it is the practice I struggle with. Optimally, what would a regulated crack market in Brixton look like - in detail?
I am assuming a starting point of the removal of the international legislation that limits policy options at present. Would we choose medically supervised availability from a clinic in Colharbour Lane? Over the counter availability? I think not! Licensed control à la alcohol - perhaps through specialist drug services where rapid access to treatment/counselling/rehab could be provided and warnings be provided credibly to adventurers who under-estimate the allure of this drug?
TinyCrendon
05-02-2002, 09:40
.
Dear Brian
I was on this tag a few days ago, and I know you're busy, but when you can I would be delighted to hear a response to this.
The concept that individuals - 12 yr olds who live in city slums all over the world, for example, - would/could know (their vulnerability to chemical dependency) and not take that first shot, snort or smoke is so naive to me.
I am only one person, but I'm almost certain that my experience is not singular. I was 17 when I had my first opiate, and I danced in the nude! I knew something radical had happened to me. A few months later, a boyfriend shot me up with heroin to apologise for hurting me over something. Then I knew straight away that I was an addict, not because I was physiologically hooked immediatelly of course, but simply something VERY deep down inside said; "Home at last; safe at last.."
The drugs field is beginning to understand that some children are more vulnerable than others but are not in a great deal of agreement about prevention measures.
DARE, in the U.S has been a dire waste of public money, and more young Americans are experimenting - at least. Perhaps the fact that a uniformed cop comes into a classroom and talks about illegal drugs is not a good idea???!!!
Over here, the Education/Prevention programs are not that much better. More recently, following some of us screaming out for mentoring services - that is a young person who is clearly beginning to go off the rails get's an adult, often but NOT always who's been to hell and back - and can spend quality time with that child and give them some compassionate and sensible attention and life-training, (whatever you call it.)
I'm sure you are aware that some ex-cons and ex-addicts love that kind of work.
Many of my peers - recovering addicts - certainly those in early recovery are completely anti-legalisation of any drugs as they are terrified of a world where they would have to 'just say no' everytime they walk out onto the streets, and because some of them believe that the incentive to not use would be gone. I've debated that with many of them till we've all gone nearly blue (familiar experience for many of us!!) and it's essentially pointless.
BUT MUCH WORSE is the way that the media preys on this group
a) Using us to demonise drugs, b) dealers (user dealers are generally alright) c) sex-workers and of course ultimately ourselves. This is quite evil to me cos everytime an unknowing person opens their gutter press paper and reads all the misinformation and lies, their FEARS are intensified, and the reform struggle is set back another few years.
I happen to believe that it is only a matter of time till politicians wake up en-masse and begin to listen to the scholars, preachers, politicians, cops, addicts and ex ones too, 'normal' users(!) and their families who are beginning to write protocols about how it would look when everything is legalised. Why? Because we have an aging population who require lots of health service money to care for them, and setting billions of drug enforcement and military money free COULD be used to care for the sick, instead of incarcerating the vulnerable.
Also, several billions will be reaped by Pharmaceuticals, and I happen to know for a fact that a leading drug policy reformer has been approached by the leaders of the capitalist world(s) - multi-nationals - to speak of related issues.
But, I want to comment about Brixton. I have spent a fair amount of time in New York, a bit doing illegal needle-exchange, a lot interviewing often-dying street addicts, giving peer support when and if I can. One of the things that struck me about our community - generally is that we acquiesce to oppression quite easily.
ON The other hand, I will never forget a meeting I had with skinny black woman I met on the Lower east side. She was quite stoned and I am very passionate about these issues. I remember that when I started to talk about the fact that DRUG ADDICTS HAVE RIGHTS THAT ARE BEING DENIED THEM ALL THE TIME AND WE NEED TO START FIGHTING BACK, not only for OUR lives but our loved ones, her head suddenly shot up and she started talking like she hadn't for years.
Amongst addict users, there are good and bad, as everywhere - whether thay are still active users or not. Some of the good ones are doing this kind of work ALL OVER THE WORLD
I would like to know if anything like this is going on in Brixton. And if it isn't and you were interested Brian, would/could you support it in some way?
boomclick
06-02-2002, 11:07
fascinating points in this thread, and respect to Brian for taking time out to respond to people's questions 'on the street' (well this little electronic street)
there is one comment that concerned me - the claim that it's getting difficult to hit dealers because they're becoming aggressive and issuing death threats. (i've paraphrased, but not misrepresented)
surely this cannot be right? does this not send out a message that you can get away with crime as long as you threaten the police enough?
i would have thought that threatening police officers with violence and death would be enough to warrant arrests and shipping police officers from all over the country (to avoid localised retaliation) to carry out mass arrests of dealers.
i don't want to see police officers shot, but if threats stop them doing their job, p'raps they should be in a different job?
Andria
I read your post in awe - you have my respect. I am a real amateur here trying to fumble my way through this stuff. I am not someone who has any real first-hand experience like you. This is what this is all about - express, explore, inform - I have no fixed ideas on this stuff.
You're right, if we are getting 12 year olds exposed to this stuff then I do not expect them to be able to make the right 'informed choices' around drugs. That would be naive. If we could regulate to make it very difficult for people to even try this stuff out before they had to wisdom to make those decisions, would that work? I'm not sure.
I think uniform cops in schools should restrict themselves to what they know - what the criminal consequences are. They (well most of them) have never experienced drugs themselves, they are not medically qualified, so why should the kids listen to what they have to say about how evil drugs are. 'You can get x years for possessing y drug', full stop. The people that need to talk about the long-term medical problems are medical people and the people who need to talk to kids about how drugs can screw your life up are recovering addicts.
We are doing some mentoring, or should I say the local Youth Offender Team (local authority) and voluntary sector are doing mentoring with 'at risk' and 'offender' young people but not around drugs I don't think. But it is really powerful if you get the right people involved (like you?)
As I said before being illegal puts many people off. I am not sure it puts addicts off - the urge is too strong (but what do I know). You list a whole batch of victims who are demonised by the media. I am glad you make a distinction between user-dealers (i.e. just enough to feed their habit) and non-user dealers (who just exploit the victims and don't care if anyone dies). I would only go as far as 'the lesser of two evils' as far as these types of dealer are concerned.
There is only one place for chaotic drug users (addicts) and that's rehab. Treatment, may be treatment in prison, but treatment, help, support, ... That is the way out, the only way out I think.
Adam - if we want a real, gloves-off debate, suggesting this is going to end up in some newspaper article is not a good way to get it. Of course the beauty of the internet is that no-one can prove who you are. First newspaper article based on these boards and I'm out of here.
I have to be pragmatic. I deal in the real world, the art of the possible. You make some very heavy and disturbing points and I am glad that you do. Give me some time to think about what you say.
Nelly - I'm not ignoring you. No time at the moment. I'll get back to you.
:)
christonabike
06-02-2002, 14:37
I, also, would like to know why officers are not arresting dealers in Brixton because of threats.
It sort of goes against the grain.
boomclick - Sorry - wrong message going out here! The more my brave and fearless officers are threatened, the more determined they are to get stuck in! We do not retreat in the face of such threats. we do not routinely arm our officers either. I mean there are armed officers that Brixton officers can call on and they respnd very quickly but we do not routinely arm police officers and no Lambeth officers are armed (not with guns anyway - they have batons and CS spray).
Adam - the art of the possible - I do not give two hoots about my promotion prospects but I do care about keeping my job here in Brixton. One step too far and I might be counting paper clips in Personnel Department! I am seriously reviewing the whole way we are tackling drug dealing in Brixton. 'Do nothing' is not an option and whilst I, with help from you guys I hope, think about what would work better (bearing in mind I cannot change the law), I have to do something and I have to be seen to do something. If I thought there was a serious risk that my officers would be killed I would withdraw them and replace them with armed officers. I do not want that sort of escalation and it is not necessary at the moment (difficult call).
Nelly - sorry it was you I should have reassured earlier - I do not know what a regulated crack market would look like. Something like your last paragraph appeals but I am no expert.
TinyCrendon
06-02-2002, 15:31
Brian - Im not `suggesting` anything but the internet is public dude. If you want to debate then debate but you cant then make conditions afterwards. Personally I'm not interested in publishing this i dont think theres anything v interesting there at all. But you are my equal, not my superior (even though you have lot more power than I do), you can't make conditions about coming here. You debate with ordinary bods or you dont. You might note i use my full name etc etc...
But look, maybe you'd make a really good legalisation advocate. What is so good about your job when you will be enforcing laws you dont agre with, in a violent and nasty trade when people you might know and like/love may die (armed officers or not).
I guess we've run out of stuff to say here. But I honestly can't understand your personal make up. Knowingly doing things that you don't agree with is not in my make up, knowingly doing things that MAKE THE SITUATION worse and kill and dehumanise people is even further from the mark (i guess we dont agree on the last point but i cant tell from what youve written, seems you will go ahead doing what you're told to).
Why stay in an organisation that is (on this subject) doing very bad things you dont appear to like ?
Please check a few of these sites Brian: you will find that you are up against powers you have no control over, who would trash you - a man who appears to have played by the rules set by the powerful - just to import more coke, you're just like us in some ways replaceable, so don't let it happen to you, do what your principles dictate. u only live 1ce innit !
I can put you in touch with former US cops Mike Ruppert (FBI) and Cele Castillo (DEA Spec Ops), they would make an interesting chat. Would you like that?
respect
adz
www.narconews.com
www.copvcia.com
www.thedrugwar.com
boomclick
06-02-2002, 15:36
cheers for the reply brian,
further to your information that established dealers have had to turn to street robbery because of new dealers...
...anecdotal evidence of what's been happening in brixton recently would bear this out. there seems to be *a lot* of street robbery around brixton at the moment. several friends of mine have been mugged in the last month or two, a couple have been assaulted and these boards have had notices of muggings, especially at the cashpoints in brixton and in josephine avenue.
of course, these attacks could as (if not more) easily be attributed to dealer's desperate clients, but there does seem to be a worrying trend.
is there an apparent increase in street robbery at 'your end' of the issue (ie increased reports/arrests) ?
brixton has been through ups and downs over the last 20 years, but mid to late 90s saw an increase in the 'perceived' safeness of the streets. it would be a tragedy for this trend to reverse...
Adam Porter - You ask Brian:
"Why stay in an organisation that is (on this subject) doing very bad things you dont appear to like ?"
I'm sure Brian can answer that himself. I would like to offer my defense however. Which is that the way you change institutions like the Police, or one way, is from the inside. Which I imagine is what Brian is attempting to do by doing what he can within his remit and what he believes is good for the area. The situation may not be perfect, but I certainly haven't ever come into contact with a cop who seems to care to this extent and seems to take an honest practical approach to the subject. Mr Paddick has stuck his neck out to come here. I started this thread and although I've left it to others to do most of arguing I have followed it with great interest. This is about what happens on my doorstep! I have learned alot about the local Police and about Commander Paddick the man.
Implying that he should get out of the Police if he doesn't like everything they do isn't helpful atall. As someone who lives in the area I'm more interested in a practical exchange of views than any philosophical or intellectual muscle-flexing. I would appreciate some respect in this and I know Mike (editor) who also lives in the middle of Brixton feels similar. :)
wildwildlifer
07-02-2002, 08:12
Could I second, or rather third, that emotion, hatboy.
By the way, Brian , it was not your technological incompetence that caused
your 'identity' to change. Several of us had our nom de plums changed , inadvertently
(?), as a result of the Ed's improvements to the boards.
he who once was and maybe again, Johnny Butterfly
TinyCrendon
07-02-2002, 08:44
.
OK Adam, I never said I was opposing your view. I'm not anti-legalisation. I don't know the answers - mainly listening here. I just want people who don't live here to keep the topic local/practical please. After all, it's people who live in Brixton who are on the blunt end of this. For the record I don't call anyone "scum" either.
As for naming a Police force that's changed from inside. Well in small ways, the Met - as people like Brian demonstrate. He is in it and he is (or if you want to be cynical, appears to be) different.
Brian can't get drugs legalised, but in his position he can contribute an opinion to the debate that may be heard. He can also make a difference to Police/community relations here, street safety and crime levels.
Sorry to seem patronising Adam, I know you're a clever guy. BUT you don't LIVE HERE.
TinyCrendon
07-02-2002, 12:52
.
These things do affect other areas of London I know - yeah. I like you better now you're more chatty and less like a College Lecturer. :)
TinyCrendon
07-02-2002, 15:16
point taken
Adam - I have great respect for you and what you say. I cannot stand around waiting for others to come to their senses whilst peoples' lives are destroyed through drugs. I have to work in the real world the way it is now. I have expressed my personal views on live TV in front of a Home Affairs Committee. I am not affraid to stand up and be counted. I am doing what I think is right in the current circumstances even if I think I would do something different if the law was different. What I need the answer to is this: With Brixton as it is and the law as it is what is the best way for me to use the resources and the power that I have? This is not a cop out and I have engaged in the philosophical/hypothetical debate here and in Parliament :rolleyes: BUT WHAT DO I DO IN MY CURRENT POSITION NOW? HELP ME!! :eek:
hatboy, I think I love you!:D
boomclick
07-02-2002, 16:10
what can you do with current law and current resources?
it's a tough question because two of the biggest problems are lack of resources and hopeless laws, but how about:
sweeping through atlantic road/coldharbour lane a couple of times a day and arresting a dealer each time? co-ordination between those watching the cctv footage and those on the street should make it (relatively) easy enough, no? it's not practical to try to arrest all the dealers, but picking one or two a day would eventually have some sort of effect, surely? two months into the campaign there'd be 100 less dealers on the street.
perhaps the dealers would be less easily replaced if they've got a 1 in 20 chance of getting nicked *every day*.
if this is successful, step it up, double the number of sweeps.
how about having police actually on the streets around brixton centre *all the time*? are there insufficient resources for, say, 2 teams of 2 police officers to patrol brixton centre?
i can't remember the last time i saw police patrolling in brixton (as opposed to standing outside the tube with sniffer dogs or zooming about in vans and cars)
to be honest, i think brixton would be a less intimidating place if the drug dealing was simply less flagrant.
also more CCTV.
finally (and this shouldn't be too difficult but potentially outside your remit) how about lighting jospehine avenue properly?
Could the Brian / Hatboy romance overtake the Drew / Tribal Princess lovefest? Vote now ;)
But seriously, is there any way to move what (appears to me) to be the main concentration of crack/smack dealing to a less central part of the borough?
I have very little knowledge of the way that this scene seems to work but it seems to me that the robbery / prostitution / needles / guns etc etc are always very close to where the actual dealing takes place. Let the dealers know that there will be zero tolerance of crack/smack dealing in the centre of town but that there will be a slightly more lenient view taken if it occurs in a less populous part of the borough away from schools, houses and passers by (no idea where this place would be - are there any empty industral estates around?).
Is there any way that you can get your cops to "persuade" the dealers that any crack/smack dealing in the centre will be stamped on hard, but that if they are "only" dealing other drugs on a relatively small scale the attitude will be a little more laissez faire.
Have the cops that you polled come up with any useful suggestions yet?
Just seen boomclick's post and agree completely with him (he/she expresses himself much better than I do).
Lighting Josephine Avenue is a must (perhaps getting the trees trimmed back a bit as well might help). For what it is worth (very little I know) I moved house recently and despite seeing many great places in Leander / Josephine / Helix etc decided not to go there because of the street crime there
boomclick
07-02-2002, 17:41
i've just thought of another idea...
this is off thetop of my head, so apologies if it's not properly thought through. it might even exist already, but i don't think so.
there is a dedicated drugs team at brixton police station, yes? there are also plain police constables, who are the one's who patrol the streets (possibly?).
why not combine the two - 'bobbys on the beat' dedicated exclusively to class A drug crime? with the right publicity, and attitude on the street, i think this would go down a storm with people on the streets of brixton who are traditionally anti-police.
see those coppers over there? - there not going to arrest mr market stall trader for smoking a spliff, but they will walk up & down coldharbour lane, and politely ask groups of big men in leather jackets (who've been ID's over CCTV as dealers) to move along, or they'll be arrested the next time round.
the point wouldn't be to *stop* the dealers, we all know that's next to impossible - but it would inconvenince them - their clients wouldn't know where to find them from day to day, fix to fix and they'd have to make other arrangements - safe houses (like the old crack shop on railton road), alternative places, whatever. the message has to go out loud and clear that the heart of brixton, with it's shops, schools and local life - is *not* a suitable crack or heroin dealing place.
i suppose the key to all the suggestions i've made today is to make life difficult for the dealers. what angers a lot of people i know is that the dealers act like they can do what they like, as openly as they like - and no-one's going to do anything about it. which, to be fair, seems to be the case at the moment.
what really puzzles me are all the portuguese heroin addicts around brixton. back home they'd get sunshine, could register as addicts and get prescription heroin and addiction treatment. why the f*ck get pranged on the platform of brixton station instead?
oh - one final point - brixton needs more resources allocated to the police. this should be obvious and would be easy to get if a few of the people in charge of deciding were brought down to brixton and asked to walk unaccompanied down atlantic road, coldharbour lane etc.
brian - you've got to try to get the bean counters to actually *see* what's going on...
Well!! What can I say. Thanks Brian - just trying to be fair. Seen you on telly though and your not my type - anyway I only go out with dealers. ;)
Moving on, aside from what others have said (sticking all the dealers on a deserted industrial estate is a hilarious and unworkable idea Nick) I think the simple presence of more foot patrols around the centre of Brixton more of the time would make some difference, especially after dark. I was in Coldharbour at about 1am yesterday and the street was deserted. Then I see two or three Police by the Granada car hire.
I do want to emphasize however, that I personally do not want to see any oppression of Brixton's street culture, nor any hassling of people just shooting the breeze (if that's the right expression). I like all that. Nor do I personally mind dealers as such. What I object to are dealers/users who rob, intimidate and use violence. I hope we all clear on that otherwise we'll end up sounding like "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells".
So, not "swamp", just a presence.
I'm still baffled why the dealers are allowed to ply their trade with complete impunity all along Coldharbour Lane, one of Brixton's major thoroughfares.
Walk along the stretch from the Dogstar to the Prince of Wales and you'll have no trouble finding someone to accompany you on your journey, hussling you with requests to buy 'drugs' off them.
While this doesn't particularly bother me (I've lived here far too long to get upset by idiots trying to sell duff drugs) many people find their presence on the street very intimidatory indeed - to the point where some girls I know are too scared to walk down the street. Why should women have to put up with this kind of intimidation?
Seeing as the various bars, restraurants and clubs on that stretch of Coldharbour Lane must generate substantial income for Brixton, surely it makes sense to post some police there - and put up some decent lighting?
I'm in agreement with what Mike, Hatboy and others have suggested as practical and workable solutions (I know a few people who will not go down Coldharbour for the reasons Mike outlined); however, what happens if and when these actions are implemented ? Will the problem just merely move down the road to Camberwell or other locations ?
I say this, as to my mind, a great deal of the increase in open dealing/drug taking in Brixton has been in response to squeezes on places such as King's Cross, and even more centralised locations such as around Centre Point.
Surely it just becomes a circular argument unless we take into account some of the wider issues that Adam brought up ?
Johnny Canuck3
07-02-2002, 21:51
Andria: the most profound, most concrete, most seductive, and most frightening description of addiction I have come across -
"Home at last, safe at last."
I hope you are safe.
God, yeah Johnny, I thought that too. "Home at last, safe at last" - frightening and profound.
unclekellan
08-02-2002, 00:17
been hearing a lot bout this thread - and respect due Mr Commander.
some points i would like to raise, if thats ok
decriminalisation/legalisation is a nest of thorns. so are the division between hard/soft drugs and dealers/users.
is cannabis ok and not ecstacy; is ketamine ok and not ampethamine. what about users who deal to support their havbit rather than burgarling
if a users sells to other chaotic-users are they a treated as a chaotic user or a dealer.
how much co-operation is there between brixton police and other boroughs. if brixton managed to eradicate or reduce the drug/crime related problem - would it simply be exporting the problem to another borough, in the same way westminster exported the sex industry to camden
how much support does brixton police have from the CPS re its policies regarding difference between users and dealers
which prisons do most users prosecuted in brixton get sent and what are the drug rehab schemes / ex-prisoner support schemes like at those prisons
how many, if any, drug rehab programmes are there in brixton area and how many are working with the police over targaetting dealers rather than chaotic users.
------
comment rather than questions
seems to me that one of the major problems in dealing with street crime, whether it is drug or violence is the problem of prosecution. one could swamp an area with officers but if one cannot get evidence and/or witnesses then the offenders walk.
all the wrining of hands and complaining about the prescence of drug dealers wont make a jot of difference if people wont come forward to testify
while i am cautiously in agreement with decriminalisation - one has to recognise that that wont in itself solve crime resulting out of addiction. one only has to look at alcohol related crime to see that.
one of the ways that the public may feel more empowered and involved and confident in getting actively involved in this issue, and therefore may (*may*) lead more people to feel mre confident about witnessing is if more police were prepared to get up and talk about stuff to local residents.
meanwhile, adam, it has to be said - if The Man comes to you and ask yur opinion when he has no requirement to do so, then insulting him and attacking him is not going to get your point listened to - he is more likely to retreat back behind his desk and nothing changes.
unclekellan
08-02-2002, 00:24
here's another takle on upping the police prescence in central brixton
lets say you follow the suggestions by some other posters and putting plain clothed and uniformed police on the street and sniffer dogs and increase the patrol cars - what happens when the black community and the gay community start to say they are feeling intimidated and/or harrassed by such a massive increase in police prescence.
i' m not saying its the wrong approach, just that put into context of other isssues and it can be seen in totally different way.
johnwisehammer
08-02-2002, 08:58
Strangely, I think you'll find it's not only black and gay people that don't like the idea of a neighbourhood where every third person on the street is a copper and where passive sniffer dogs roam.
TinyCrendon
08-02-2002, 10:04
You are all lovely as far as i can tell. When I argue about political issues i tend not to take many prisoners - hence the college lecturing. But I find thats the best way...Im kinda used to arguing against rightys all the time so you have to win arguments no ?
Brian asked `with the powers that i've got what can i do` and once again mentioned the `real world`. Well obviously the word `do` is operative here. You can always `do` something (street lighting like mike says on that bit of coldharbour lane and in general around that end of CHL/market/dogstar/ritzy bit etc etc isnt good).
But, respectfully and compassionately to all, if you take the word `do` to mean anything long term or concrete on the subject of drug misue and its surrounding problems then the answer to Brians question has to be...`nothing`. He can do nothing. And Im not laughing when i say this, it doesnt make me go AHA! SEE! It makes me want to leave the country...
sonicdancer
08-02-2002, 11:19
I agree with you Adam, firstly on the fact that it is a political issue and secondly that there is not much Brian can do he is caught in the middle really, there is over whelming support for legalisation of cannabis in some parts of the country but in middle england this suggestion is reacted to very badly.
The vote winners come from this surburbia land and I doubt very much if Blair will do anything before the next election if at all, even with the best efforts of Blunkett dropping hints and breaking new ground (lowering the classification) (introducing a trial more acceptance of smaller ammounts in Lambeth),
I walked down the lane last night and there seemed to be MORE than ever dealers between KFC and the pub, all muttering Marijuana, Ganja, Skunk, Sensi etc etc, it then dawned on me that the sweeping approach might backfire BADLY there are so many dealers there now more than ever I think this tactic may well be futile, and too dangerous (which figures with Brian's almost desperate plea's for ideas, as this has im sure been tried) and also (made me dismiss the suggestion of zero tolerance).......... but they where advertising the smoke NOT crack, pills, base. although I have no doubt whatsoever the shelves are stacked with these also.
The point I am trying to make Brian and what other's too have debated is that if Cannabis was legalised and distribution is controlled, there is no reason for dealers to be standing in the streets when there is controlled outlets. SO what you could do and believe you have been doing already so carry on is attempting to lobby influencial governement and high ranking police figures into this idea of legalisation, therefore giving no ligitimate reason for dealers to be there (so they must be holding class A's).
Taking it back to Brixton Guns Crack. I would suggest that you start making suggestion's reference making an area within Brixton (ONLY) which encompasses all the patches of the dealers a "Cannabis can be legally bought" zone.
The dealers choose to deal on the streets, probably as a last resort but I bet they actually like the past-time, in the Brixton Jamaican circles I bet the status is probably quite high, the pressure and dangers inherhant mean they are more likely to arm themselves, inturn they are more likely to shoot someone, especially anyone who gets in the way (your officers brian)
This is going to be a long drawn out affair for police and mainly and more importantly Government to wake up to trialing radicale ideas in an effort to reduce gun crime on our streets
drfranni
08-02-2002, 11:20
I AM a wet liberal and cannot help being deeply immersed in "the personal is political" but I am totally signed up to the idea that WE can do something
I hate the fear that street crime brings, I hate that my children are fearful of going to the cornershop (however my son browses the music shops on CHL with impunity - says he feels safe there!)
Two nights ago, I got off the bus as usual, as LJ. This is not a very "safe looking" area. A man was shouting at his GF -seemed very out of control and violence seemed imminent. Many people, including the large group of people how are usually in front of the supermarket and the barbers, stopped and looked. There seemed no doubt that any of us (myself included) was ready to intervene. The bloke stopped, looked, and calmed down - a bit. We made the street a safer place for a few seconds
If it had been a dealer, I suspect that we would all have had second thoughts, I'm a big ol' girl but doubt I could argue with a bullet. Fear makes the streets less safe and I have no idea how to overcome this but I am also sure that there will never be "enough" police on the streets to achieve this - we are also part of the solution - if a solution exists
This is indeed the most amazing thread.
It is hard to keep this thread to practical solutions in Brixton because the problem is neither local nor simple.
In fact, the situation in Brixton is not unique or, dare I say it, particularly bad. There are ghettos in this city that are suffering much worse from guns and crack. But they go unnoticed because they have no trendy bars, no flash websites, and no liberal professionals living there who are able and willing to do something about it. Their pain never makes the pages of the Evening Standard, let alone the national press and television (or even Year Zero).
I too believe the personal is political, and for that reason I question whether the police have the answers. Some individuals within the police service may have the best of intentions and their opinion is valuable. But the police, as an institution, is not answerable to the people they police, but ultimately to their political masters, and we all know who pull their strings. While this remains the case, change to the police service from within, and change to the most deprived neighbourhoods of London are at best cosmetic, and at worst a pipe dream.
Dear Slowdog and Adam too
You make vital statements about the role of the police, and whom they are ultimately answerable too. But hey, he is here with us on line and while Adam continues to get him to read those sites, and I pressure him to try and strategise, we ALL need to think about the issue, cos it is ALL our problems
Like AIDS was never a gay men's disease, drugs are here now and everywhere. If each one of us did one thing per day, things cumulatively change dramatically.
I'm going to assume that if you are on this thread you care like I do about the drug problem, whether it is Brixton or not, and this mentoring stuff can be done by almost anybody with a heart and mind - ALL of us. AND it costs 1 hour a week
That's just one of many ideas; it's not about trying to presuade kids not to use, but it is about telling them the whole truth, and then giving them a little bit of guidance that will go a tiny way to get them to make the healthiest choices for themselves and those they love and love them.
Bye for now; thanx for keeping me in touch with reality guys. I have just so lost faith in govt; they keep getting bought over. What can i say?
andria/Users Voice editor
I've probably said this, but I am very concerned not to demonise/dehumanise anybody. Dealer doesn't necessarily equal gun-man, especially when we're talking about little bits of weed. (Or little bits of nothing, when we're talking the selling pretend drugs to tourists in Coldharbour Lane). Likewise we should be careful about advocating Police "sweeps" or "swamp". I know Brian Paddick was a PC during and before the 1981 riots when "Operation Swamp" was a heavy-handed police action that contributed to the unrest. (Correct me if I'm wrong there Brian. I wasn't a regular visitor to Brixton till 85 and didn't move here till 88 but I think that was Operation Swamp).
Yeah it was swamp alright, I was in the ice rink in streatham when it all kicked off and they put out a tannoy telling everyone there were no buses to brixton because of anti police rioting. the rink emptied in about ten mins as all the braver/more reckless than me peeps went for a mooch about...:eek:
Interesting that Brian was a pc then, he must have been about 12!
unclekellan
08-02-2002, 16:06
i'm not saying that people should put up with the atmospherte in/around brixton right now - tho i dont think, in some ways, it is as new as it might feel
i have only been attcked in london 3 times in 13 years; one was drandom drunken stuff in central london - the other two were bottle attacks in brixton in the late 80's and again in the mid 90's.
but i also worry that for many people the answer seems just to stick lots of police on the streets, increase cctv surveillance and push the problem somewhere else.
which is why i was asking about how much work is being done by the police to work with drug rehab agencies, prisoner support agencies, halfway houses and other bodies.
if users especially chronic/addicted users of drugs/alcohol dont have the necessary support systems in place to help them get off and stay off the substances, then they will keep creating a demand and that demand will be satisfied by dealers
and since one cannot support a habit on social security, crime is inevitable
the problem is not simply one of the supply but also of demand.
unfortunately, if it is expensive to mount high-police-prescence and visibility, it is far more expenisve to set up and run rehab /support systems at the level required
head honcho - I was going to get mad but then I realised that what you think is the impression others must be getting as well. We have arrested at least 50 dealers in CHL in the past 12 months. I have a brave and fearless team (i.e. one team) of officers who are down there hounding the dealers whenever they are on duty (about 8 hours a day, 5 days a week). With that level of enforcement, I am not surprised people think we are doing nothing! I'm looking at having 5 teams. It will take some doing - I've only got a limited supply of officers and I am not talking about next week.
unclekellan - testing questions. What priority order do we put we our drug fiends in? Let's apply the 'don't damage my community test'. Top of the list are the street dealers in crack and smack -they screw-up people's lives and they frighten the public. Next come chaotic users who steal and rob to buy the stuff - OK they need help and treatment but they also need to stop damaging others to pay for the stuff. User-dealers - are they selling to chaotic users? They are also high on the hit list if that is what they are doing. I want people to stop damaging other people. Is arresting any of them doing any good? Gotta do something? No 'do nothing' option, not for me anyway.
There is some joined-up stuff between Lambeth and other Boroughs. We are at the moment at the 'what works' stage. If it works in Lambeth we can try it elsewhere but displacement is an issue. CPS are OK with this - no problems there and I think prisons universally have treatment and aftercare for all prisoners who get over a certain length of sentence. Don't know how many rehab schemes in Brixton but we do work together pretty well.
I do read everyone's contribution and I do take it all in but some posts I do not have anything to say about. Do give me a break from the 'puppet of my political masters' bit and the 'changes are only cosmetic' business. Everything is relative I know but compared with the changes I have seen (not seen come to think about it) in my 25 years of policing (how old did you think I was anyway?) these changes can be measured in light years (ahhh! Kylie!!) Uh,hum, sorry about that :D And most people in the police think I am a beyond-redemption, 'let's get the guys in white coats to take him away', rebel.
I was a actually a Sergeant in Brixton when Swamp happened and we are not going there again!
unclekellan there is money for rehab and that is part of the answer (except no effective rehab for crack addicts yet). What do we do on the supply side?:confused:
Regulate and Control. Regulate and Control. Tax it and pay for improved health-care, education and transport 4 all.
I know you've heard it before, and it will take for ever to implement, but from where I am standing with a head full of sometimes-overwhelmingly painful memories, what I'd want for those I love (if they got in trouble with Ds) is
a) Clean drugs sold by a pharmacist who can give advice when necessary
b) Clean & easily available needles.
c) Truthful education - if we did that on drugs, we would have to change the drug laws immediately..
d) All the money that would be saved from punishing and imprisoning and insurance etc could be used to sort out the health service and the transport system and the fact that we have an aging population who need a lot of health-care.
It seems so simple to me (from a 'child's' eye-view) - in theory at least - I just don't get why everything GOOD takes so long...
And when I do get it, it reminds me so deeply of why I became a heroin addict: the world is an unjust, unequal, often cruel, mostly-testosterone (but I'm sure us girls hormones don't help sometimes)driven-mess.
Anyway Brian, if you are still on line, did u get my liyttle private E?
I think it would be good if we could interview you for the Users Voice: I try to give folk hope with that. It goes out to many service users (drug services) and of course AIDS ones too and their carers. I'm totally respectful of people's wishes re editing - indeed they essentially do it for themselves.
Lost of wonderful, famous and infamous people have been in there; have i sold it to you yet?
andria
:(
Brian et al!
And I guess that last note was very down eh? (End of a knackering day.) SORRY.
Here are some improvements on it.
In the immediate re prescribing: doctors must use their freedom to prescribe injectable opiates to entrenched addicts who will not/cannot come off. AND actually there are things that can be done for Cocaine and/or Crack addicts but there simply are not enough infrastructures to respond to the need that is out there AND I think (if some workers were honest) there is a lot of fear about working with this group. Once upon a time, being a drugs worker was frustrating and heartbreaking, now it's both of them and sometimes terrifying.
Next step re prescribing: before we get to chemist/druggist selling amps over the counter, we must consider regulating the administration of prescribing through medics. One of the problems we have in this country is that our docs are reticent to prescribe injectables they say because more injecting inevitably leads to more blood borne infections (which may be true.) However, if the doc doesn't prescribe, and the patient goes back to the street, they may have the double-whammy of another infection PLUS poisoned and/or cut drugs. So which is best in the long run?
Perhaps the doctors cannot carry all this on their conscience. AND at the end of the day, they are obligated to work with patients they can see are motivated to staying with their scripts, or coming off - it's a numbers game. So in the end, the most vulnerable will always go to the wall: die young, go to prison for years or develop life-threatening diseases. It is a form of social darwinism that goes further than the addict community of course..
But I've been asking a question about community-organising in Brixton, and nobody is answering. Am I asking the wrong people? Is it a stupid question or what? Somebody just let me know and I will stop harangueing this list on this subject.
Models of community-empowerment exist; we need to get our hands in and start using them. That is the only way the morale and hope of a community rises, and things can start to change.
Re having arrested many crack dealers down there: how quickly do they replace each other Brian? That must be SO f frustrating. I will never forget the last long street-use I did. It was 1991-3 in Kings Cross. There was an Italian user dealer I would score from regularly. He was put on remand for 4 months, and then back out on the street, where he returned to exactly the same spot to begin dealing again!! (maybe prison had slowed his brain down or HIV was eating it up, but you get my point...)
I analogise that picking up 28 dealers in a week (or whatever it was) must be like an active addict having a great binge-week with smack and coc, and feeling great. Then, when they return to the beat and see the replacements so thick and fast, the come-down must demoralise terribly.
What to do when nobody is winning much....be wild, creative
"boldness has genius" and all that.
Brian, if you could tell me of any community initiatives that you know of, I could stop harrassing you and see if there is anyway I can help.
Look forward to your reply.
Andria
Johnny Canuck3
10-02-2002, 02:53
Even without being the most sterling of Canada's citizens, I have always had a respect for the police.
I call them 'garbagemen with guns'.
Not because of the objects of their 'business', but because, like dustmen, they are people who we ask to take on the distasteful jobs of our society.
No one likes their neighborhood unsightly, no one likes to see the mental patient screaming on the corner, the passed out junkie pissing himself, the teen with the crowbar prying off a basement window.
No one likes to deal with our violent or unstable citizens.
So we pay this group of people to do it for us, to get their hands dirty when we can't or won't.
When we see to many junkies on a streetcorner, we tend to get mad at the police.
But Slowdog has a point. Maybe the cops don't answer to their 'political masters', but they must operate within the framework of law and policy set down by elected officials, bureacrats, and boards.
There was a time in this city when a pimp or dealer could get taken into an alley and beaten up by the cops.
Illegal, but the 'powers' countenanced it , the public turned a blind eye, and there were few if any pimps or dealers on the street.
Today's atmosphere, and public, are different.
The cops could quite easily control the street drug problem, but it might be at a cost that you aren't prepared to pay.
Brian et al have discretion within an envelope. If you want the envelope changed in any way, you must go and take on 'city hall'.
Adria, do you believe that the legalization of crack/coke would be a good idea?
Sure, it would be clean, but at say 1/10 the price, one could continue to increase the dose to get over the habituation effect, until finally reaching the point of stroke or heart failure.
It ain't junk, no one is nodding off before they can od.
Andria - I wll call you Monday :)
sonicdancer
10-02-2002, 10:03
Jonnie the old bill are not armed as you know, this is probably one of the main reason's why yardie (jamacain) gangsters have targeted London as soft spot, the other being the cocaine culture in London (demand is there) and the Home Counties, the other being the leniant sentences and no death penalty in Britain.
I dont think arming the police would be a viable solution though, just escalate the problem, also we DO have a problem in London and Brixton and the whole country for that matter with heavy handed police, there are plenty of cases in this country caught on CCTV, and see other threads on this board for proof of this (unofficial policing tactics). But if that was encouraged in Brixton it would explode..... :(
unclekellan
10-02-2002, 14:08
[andria (hello, not seen yu since the old act up days)]
one of the issues about drug use, particularly opiates, is when the law changed in 60s and changed the way in which registered addicts could a) get their treatmnts and b) were treated.
maybe whats needed is some kind of forum work in brixton between police, gps, drug rehab pojects, users, probation service and concerned locals.
the police on there own are only touching part of the problem and can never on their own provide a solution
---
seems to me a number of assumptions are being made by The Commandr about a) drug rehab progs in brixton b) drug rehabd/afterprison support for users in/from brixton -
stuff has got to be joined up between the police and after-prison services, between police and drug rehab, between sentencing policies - maybe more probation in exchange for drug rehab attendance -
yu can arrest all the people yu like - but if they come back out of prison and there is no local support network and there has been no decent support for rehab inside - then they will re-offend - its the nature of addiction.
hell, i was a speed and alcohol addict - i know - without detox unit - i'd be dead
---
re hierarchies of targetting.
the "do they damage my community test" works if applied to straight forward dealers - the big money men exploiting the rest. but user-dealers - too often these are just as chaotic as your regular joe's. and treating them the same as your bastard dealers misses the point.
if yu got to spend time buying stuff, holding it in your house and selling it to others without using it all up yourself -whilst being an addict - yu got to be pretty desperate - burgularly/prostitution/mugging is lot less hassle.
when brian talks about those who hurt the community, we got to be clear that teenagers on crack are part of the community too -
is this debate about what we do about "them" as people who hurt our community or a problem about "us" as a community which contains people who are drug users
ultimately its got to come down to aftercare and support systems. the police might take people off the street for a while - but if the demand for the stuff is still there - then it will be supplied.
and can people here explain which is their priority:
crack/heroin dealers on street corners
guns
burgularies and muggings
kids into heroin/crack
TinyCrendon
11-02-2002, 09:01
Brian - that was a very depressing and in some places unintelligible reply- you have seen/not seen progress measured in light years.
I have to say that last reply takes me back to my original posts. That isnt Brian Paddick that was nonsense...
If it is then we are all in big trouble.
Also, please stop about this `Yardie` bollocks, the drug trade in London and the UK is run - in the vast main - by white guys. IN the main the Yardie gangs are white-supplied. You think these little street fools can match peeps like the Adams or McGuires etc etc.
The `Yadies` in the south of london don't bring in all the coke and the most of them aren't `Yardies`they are local kids. I also think the term is racist, why are there no terms for other gangsters, why do the majority white gangsters have no name. Instead people make feature films about them...
Anyway I think this thread has reached a very sad conclusion. There is nothing we can do. The police won't help us they will only enforce laws they know are wrong and kill people, and the drug trade is controlled by major economic concerns who wont leagalise it for fear of losing its profits. We might as well give up and become dealers...you know, work from the inside like we were told above. Sheesh...
Vinchenzo
11-02-2002, 13:55
Hatboy - cheers for this thread - after being a longtime sometime lurker i finally got down to registerin cause of it (blagsta's party anecdotes & photos didn't hurt either) - so yeah nice one.
Adam - in contrast to what you think i don't reckon the thread has reached a sad conclusion - it's more society that's in a sorry state - although i agree with the majority of what you say illegality/profit/poverty are the major factors etc, your misinterpretations of the Kommandant - which sometimes appear willful (but then he is just a liberal tryin to get us all on side no?) tend to blur the issue somewhat.
While knowin that what you an others say about the global perspective is correct an that everythings connected - i think you might just have tipped the scales too far in the global direction considerin that the thread was about issues in but not specific to brixton - featuring exchanges with the (maybe you say) local police commander.
Are people reactionaries just cause they engage in such an exchange without launchin a full frontal assault??
Decriminalisation (if not legalisation) will not take place anywhere in the country unless the Brixton 'experiment' works. Therefore it's in all our interest that it does, so we should all try and further this debate and put forward as many concrete suggestions as possible, and give top cops (so what if liberal - do you really expect them to be revolutionary socialists, der!?) a chance to stick their heads above the parapet without getting them blown off.
Adam - Merely the fact that there is some place for this debate to take place is itself a massive sign of hope.
A shame no-one seems to take up Adria's suggestion, or maybe everybody thinks it's too dangerous/non-starter.
The cops are a blunt instrument, and liable to get things totally wrong. I'm a bit more pessimistic about the level of 'race awareness' in the cops - you rely on recruiting babies from the white suburbs then 'dump' them in the canteen and 'alien streets', and they turn to racism as an easy answer to the massive problems they see around them and as an expression of the alienation they feel. I wouldn't trust them to tell the difference between 'street culture' and serious crack-nutters. And any white cops I come across seem to have a near pathological hatred of Black people and incapable of talking using neutral terms. Black cops seem to get it in the neck from everybody, and should be due more respect, imho.
There's got to be some way of the community itself taking more of a lead. There were some suggestions at one time in Lambeth of inviting Sinn Fein over to explain how community policing went down in areas that the RUC daren't go. However, how you prevent that turning into vigilateeism and gang-banging I don't know. (And their record on drug running is not good, I know)
Evidence for this?
(And their record on drug running is not good, I know)
I am not doubting you just curious as to whether this is a daily Mail inspired urban myth...
Nice to have met you again on friday BTW.
William of Walworth
11-02-2002, 19:15
JWH knows a fair bit about that one. The IRA (as far as I can work out) don't mind talking with the UVF and similar when it comes to carving out trading territory in their respective areas!
Possibly not al that relevant to Brixton though?
Top post bruise!
Hi TC and WoW
I was just coming back to edit that bit out, won't know because your posts wouldn't make sense.
All I meant was that some of their activities became very gangsterish, and their solutions for delinquency - ie knee capping kids for TADA, for example etc - verge on the extreme. And know, this is nothing to do with Daily Mail paranoia - read stuff by ex-members. Anyway, sorry, Hatboy and the rest please ignore the ref to Sinn Fein.
The point remains, though - what more can the community do, how can that be supported and activated.
Two points - the concensus is for school's type work you need a cop (to point out the criminal consequences), a medic (for genuine trustworthy evidence of physical effects, long term effects etc) and an ex-addict (for the effect it has on your own personal life). So. Like, why not get those teams of three up and running? Er, now. Please? Soon?
Also. A point no-one has touched upon, is a culture of machismo, shoulder-shrugging, giving gun-toting, woman/fag hating that's summed up in gansta rap, though isn't confined to it. I know that real hip-hop has moved on, and gansta in US is a suburban whiteboy game, but you wouldn't know it among the current Sec School generation over here. There's real problems developing, and there's too little attempt countering that on a credible culture-based level.
Lastly. There's one force - and this is a more serious point than it sounds - that should be tapped, and that's scary gran. I'm serious. A lot of kids of dealers age have been brought up by their gran. The last person they would be able to bring themselves to attack is someone of their gran's age. The ability of scary gran to humiliate their machismo bullshit on the street is massive. Scary Gran, particularly scary JA gran is someone I want to see put in power on the streets. Put them in uniform or not. I want to see them cussing the arse out of these wankers - it's a force that can easily be organised through the churches and stuff. Bring them on.
William of Walworth
12-02-2002, 07:34
A point no-one has touched upon, is a culture of machismo, shoulder-shrugging, giving gun-toting, woman/fag hating that's summed up in gansta rap, though isn't confined to it. I know that real hip-hop has moved on, and gansta in US is a suburban whiteboy game, but you wouldn't know it among the current Sec School generation over here. There's real problems developing, and there's too little attempt countering that on a credible culture-based level.
There was quite a few mentions of this in the mobile phone theft thread on the main board, but not here. I'm tempted to endorse this point, but I'm held back by not knowing enough detail.
SCARY GRAN! What an excellent idea :)
W of W
Gary Hayes
12-02-2002, 10:52
Dear Brian,
Your consultation with Brixtonians is very welcome and I am very grateful for this opportunity to talk to you.
I commend the Lambeth cannabis formal warning pilot. It's strengths are in the fact that it takes the focus off a relatively harmless drug offence and redirects resources to provide better policing.
My worry however is that the rationale for its expansion is biased towards more targetting of drug users, albeit different and often more harmful drugs.
This in my opinion brings with it its own problems. A lot will be simple displacement problems. But more importantly such an approach merely targets the more excluded and vulnerable people (those using crack and heroin on a daily basis) of our area, exacerbating their and our problems.
While we have to target a lot of the drug dealers in Brixton, I sense a leaning towards singling this out as the 'Brixton illness'.
Despite the obvious temptations, using such a patholigical scapegoat is dangerous and masks many of the truths and real problems of Brixton. Such a practice often and currently does lead to disenfranchisement, resentment and escalating tensions - all of which are visible in Brixton.
I believe we have to rethink the role of police and I believe Lambeth is already starting the change.
Policing is the frontline in many respects. Much of the advice on this website is the need for more police on the streets. The most important question however is what will be their intervention when faced with the many problems poresented in Brixton - a lot of which are social and psychological as well as criminal.
Police must acknowledge they have a large social role to play in society and MUST provide better police training and special policing where complex interventions are needed.
This might take the form of 'social police' who have the powers of arrest but also skills and resources to refer, counsel or educate people in need.
Much of the government's latest initiatives go some way to achieving this - such as arrest referral schemes and Drug Treatment and Testing Orders - but they do not go far enough in terms of social support and help.
Police roles MUST change. They must also face the fact they are the front line both in terms of intervention but also in terms of where most of the funding is going. Police possess unique powers that if used properly can create very useful lines into support and so encourage inclusion which will help the victim, the criminal's behaviour and society as a whole.
The change will also greatly improve the public's perception and relationship with the police.
Gary Hayes
Coldharbour Lane is really just the tip of the ice berg. There are about 20 dealers not 100 yards from where I'm sat at the bottom of Tulse Hill right now. I'm sure you all have your local hotspots. Ten years ago there was one or two dealers on friday and saturday night, now they are there 365 days a year. and even when it's pissing down with rain. I be a hypocrite if i didn't say over those years they have sometimes been useful, when the usual supplies of weed dry up. So last week, our street finally gets it very own shooting, over you guessed it, drug deals gone bad. There's a porche, a bmw 7 series, a jaguar xj6 and a rather tasty celica outside my house. All of which are owned by said entrepreneurs on my st corner. These dealers have been decribed as petty, but they're not, they're earning morn than most of you with a masters degree. so the answer is simple, legalise Street dealers and get them to start paying tax, at the 40% rate they'd all be on we have enough revenue to hire an entire extra police force...
Why not ask those who make so much from brixton, dog star and other bars, macdonalds, kfc to make an community contribution to pay for a cop in the street.
unclekellan
12-02-2002, 20:09
Why not ask those who make so much from brixton, dog star and other bars, macdonalds, kfc to make an community contribution to pay for a cop in the street.
oh yes. just what we need... not!
PFI police.
i can see the accountability issues now - and of course the woman who gets raped slightyl too far down the street from the relevant corproate sponsors building and so "its not my job, mate"
i can remember in the early 80's when we used to joke about them privatising water supply - oh how we larfed.
were really laughing now, aren't we
This thread is neither "sad" nor "concluded". Remember Adam - you're not taking this class.
Good to see a couple of new names joining in above. I like the idea of making the businesses that make money hand over fist in Brixton pay for afew more cops.
Some of their proprietors could stop consuming half the coke in the area too!
Vinchenzo
12-02-2002, 22:55
Unclekellan
PFI police - it's not so far fetched - now you mention it i'm sure i remember a tv news article sorry filler last year about a pilot scheme featurin a group of retailers who'd all chipped in to buy/finance their very own local bobby - who from there on in was gonna concentrate all his efforts on things like shoplifting & loiterin kids - if me memory serves me right it was up in sheffield at that big shoppin centre in the middle of the industrial no man's land??
Brian
do you know anything about this one?? and while you're here without wishing to question your judgement regarding life decisions etc - you say that when you realised what the police were about you decided to
"influence the team from the field of play" (02-02-2002 07:17 PM),
which I suppose is fair enough - but now looking back on that decision how influencial and effective do you feel you've been & more to the point can be in the future if as you also say
"most people in the police think I am a beyond-redemption, 'let's get the guys in white coats to take him away', rebel" (08-02-2002 09:34 PM)
????
yours assuming that there's a serious underbelly to the quip?
vincent
corporate whore
13-02-2002, 10:01
Yeah and the West End (Westminster?) police wanted to start charging the meat market bars in Leicester Square a surcharge to provide the additional policing needed when the beered-up hordes come flooding out at 11.20 - a worthy plan, given that the majority of crime commited at that time is the direct result of these bars serving and serving and serving and serving the sort of shit beer referred to in the 'Stella - curse of the drinking nation' thread elsewhere on these boards.
Not sure how Brixton businesses would react to being asked to help provide more coppers because of the ever-expanding drug dealing - hardly the fault of the DogStar that crack gets dealt on its doorstep, and it doesn't seem to stop people queueing outside on a weekend..
I still think there's sense in the suggestion the dealing should be concentrated in one place. Like the man said, Coldharbour Lane is the most obvious, but by no means the only, place it goes on. The bottom of Tulse Hill is a case in point, as is Railton Road (never sure what those guys are selling though - possibly just weed).
In Hamburg, the city made a deal with the hookers and pimps - we'll give you a street in which to do your thing - put a gate at the end so no-one can see in, only let in who you want to let in, police it yourself. Could this not work here, but with crack and smack? Let it be known that dealing will be tolerated in one place only, and anywhere else it will be dealt with with extreme prejudice. Containing it would mean it could be seen, quite clearly, who's buying, and therefore who needs to be stealing to fund the buying.
I'm all for concentrating the dealing on one place, but I suspect there won't be many people volunteering for it to be their street, neither would many businesses relish having dealers outside their door.
<flippant mode>
Maybe they could have a mobile drug dealing van go around like a mobile library with a self enclosed shooting gallery, snorting pews, rolling tables and perhaps a fast bus to a safe little patch where the hot-headed, gun-toting, cowards can safely shoot the shit out of each other.
</flippant mode>
But on the subject of surcharges for extra policing, I can't see it really working. Where do you draw the line? The clubs, pubs, fast food sellers, hot dog stalls - or what about the late night bookstores, cafes etc? Anyhow, I thought that the council taxwas set up to cover these local charges, no?
corporate whore
13-02-2002, 12:06
I see your point Mike but I don't see any of the businesses on Coldharbour or Tulse Hill actively trying to attract the dealers who operate outside their businesses at the moment. It's still happening though.
My premise is that there's an entire road (preferably a cul-de-sac, if that doesn't sound too Suburban75) dedicated to this - no-one living on it, no other business going on except dealing. This way the only people who come into contact with this shit are people who choose to do so - not someone who's just popped out to Costcutter for a two-pint of semi-skimmed and some rich tea.
I'd be up for confining the dealing to a park, or whatever, and dealing with those selling outside this "zone" with extreme measures.
I also think blood tests for violent criminals should be mandatory.
Anyone found with crack in the system gets a whole lot of slow release valium or something to make them too dozy to fight.
I think the whole concept of a acceptable zone to deal in is a non starter... No one will want this where they live and it would make it more dangerous for users to buy if it went ahead as it would by it's very nature be more isolated.
I still think we need to allow GP's to prescribe whatever they feel is appropriate when dealing with drug addicts.
The problem of crack remains though. Many users would smoke untill they were dead given an unlimited supply so the moral question remains:
Is it acceptable for us a a society to allow or worse facilitate people to drug themselves to an early grave? I don't think so and would disagree with legalisation of crack for this reason.
Moral dillemas make me want a beer and a spliff!:)
And the 'reactionaries are biting back . Disturbing to see the reports of the tongue lashing re 'Lambeth'Crime rates given out b to Lambeth Council and Brixton police .
It is easy to forget that the Police Force is not a unified body acting with 'one mind' . Rather it is a complex organisation composed of many different and sometimes competing 'interest groups' .To many coppers Brian is anathema , he represents every thing they detest /hate and they find him and his 'experiments' profoundly threatening .He is open about his sexuality , is University educated ( I think I am right on this Brian?)
and is a social 'liberal' who is developing models of policing by consent as opposed to 'repression' /coercion' .Elements in the Met are already mobilising against him at many levels .The same lobby and vested interest groups who were threatened by the Stephen Lawrence report are also actively engaged in challenging and undermining Brian .Expect press leaks , disinformation like the nonsense given about the Brixton experiment with Dope given by the Police Federation rep to the Home Affiares Select Committee on Drugs , and much ,much ,more ,these people fight very dirty indeed .To some exent this situation is mirrored throughout the UK and the tredgedy is that radical change may not happen despite the 'success' of experiments such as Brixton because reactionary forces such as the police fed simply will not allow them to happen .:( I off to read my Guardian now - as if you didn't guess .Alan J.
William of Walworth
14-02-2002, 16:56
I think Alanj is absolutely right, the first question I asked Brian was what he thought of Fred Broughton's "evidence" to the Home Affairs Select Committee, in which the "tolernace of cannabis increases crack dealing" line was pushed OUTRAGEOUSLY.
I do hope Brian and others in the Police who think like him will fight back on the publicity and put it about big time, with as much publicity as possible, that the Brixton experiment should not be curtailed but spread Met-wide, which will, logically, release more Police to deal other crime.
For those on these boards who support full on legalisation of everything, the "separation model" of tolerance of soft drugs in order to reduce peeps exposure to hard drugs, might? be anaethema. The idea that the Police, once they don't have to bother with hassling petty weed tokers, can then be free to be more tough on bigger fish in the dealer world, might be even more uncomfortable.
BUT I'm arguing pragmatically (and I admit selfishly ;)
It's politically easier, especially for the Police, to argue for a tolerant policy on cannabis if you separate discussion of it from that of other drugs, except in terms of how a more leniant policy on the first will lead to a more effective "crackdown" on the second. I don't happen to agree this will happen except to a limited extent, the discussion above goes into the whys and wherefores of that. But it's about protecting small gradual gains from being reversed innit.
And as Alanj says Brian has quite a few enemies inside the Police and to bring them into line on cannabis policy the most pragmatic and realistic arguments possible will be necessary.
I respect the thoughtfulness and insights with which most people on this thread including the Commander have been discussing crack dealers in Brixton and generally.
It's an excellent debate.
Stick around Brian!
I've just stepped into this debate after being recommended to visit urban75 and I'm very impressed with it.
I run Transform (the campaign for effective drug policy) and we're campaigning to legalise all drugs in order to decrease the problems associated with use and misuse of drugs. I won't go into detail as the info is all on our website.
It seems to me that this discussion can be broken into two:
1 How do we best deal with the situaltion in the long term and that, in my opinion is total legalisation?
2 What do we do in the meantime?
I have the greatest respect for Brian and what he has done in Brixton and what he has done in terms of putting his head on the block politically. We need more coppers like him.
I am surprised at some of your reticence in calling for legalisation, given that Richard Brunstrom (Chief Constable of North Wales) has done so, as has Barry Shaw (Chief Constable of Cleveland).
There is, in my opinion, a strong reason to call for legal change, if as a copper, you think it is due.
As to what we do in the menatime I am hoping to gather together those enlightened people like Brian from all over the country to plan some co-ordinated pilot initiatives to see what works where.
There is no 'one size fits all' answer and it is only through trial and error that we will discover where to go next.
It is very difficult to see where to go next in terms of what can be done under prohibition. When use and misuse reach a certain point, you have so much chaos associated with the unregulated market, that it becomes nigh on impossible to make much progress.
The Dutch and other countries are beginning to realise this and are looking to make changes to the international conventions in order to deal with the supply side.
It is only when we control the price and distribution of drugs that we can really influence things.
And how will pressure on the Met from David Blunkett today ("cut street crime or I'll bring in government managers") and Ken Livingston's seemingly more receptive attitude to NY Mayor Guilliani's "zero tolerance" effect all this????
Ken Livingston used to think that zero tolerance had potential to oppress both black people and gay people (in NY even dancing in a bar requires special permission now). I also think this.
If we are going to see a greatly increased Police presence on the streets of Brixton, I hope to God the police have the confidence of all sectors of the local community. No one wants another 1981.
There has been a version of zero tolerance in the West end. Especially around Leciester Square and Soho. Over the past year there have been increased police patrols at weekends and a massive atempt to crack down on drug dealing in Soho with a joint police squad being formed to patrol both Covent Garden and Soho as previously dealers had been able to run into Covent Garden to avoid arrest. The area seems to be getting a bit safer as well. This was copied from New York where crime around the area around Times Square has been drastically reduced over the past eight years.
Hey Guys. This is really good stuff! Another manic week - sorry for the long pause.
Bruise - we do need more race awareness training. I keep thinking things are getting better re. police officer attitudes but we cannot afford to take our eyes off that particular ball. I am going to put monitoring in place on all types of police activity to see what is happening and I am going to re-invigorate our diversity strategy. Please don't blame cops for inappropriately stereotyping and then stereotype cops! There are good and bad black cops and good and bad white cops (most are good and some are quite outstanding!) I could not agree more about drugs education. Cop + medic + recovering addict - the dream team. I will get onto it. Scary grans and scary mums - how do we get them into action? There is real mileage in this.
Gary - there is a real dilemma here. We need tough cops to arrest the dealers and the street robbers but we need 'social cops' to win over the community and to deal effectively with 'victims' of crime (chaotic drug users are victims of crime). We need dual personality, dual purpose cops!
dr256 - the guy from the Dogstar was suggesting this to me today. I think we need adequate funding centrally and 'free at the point of delivery'.
Vincent - I think I have been influential and effective within a small and an increasingly larger arena - tomorrow the world! I am doing what I can where I can and according to some of our customers I am chagning things and from their perspective for the better. (Sorry - ego check required). Things are getting very nasty for me at the moment (see later).
Alanj - you are right of course. Whether it is homophobia, professional jealousy or touching peoples' raw nerves around drug abuse I don't know. Still it could be worse, I could be being ignored;) .
Danny - welcome! I know you are right of course (about legalisation) but we are having to work with the art of the possible. No political party would win an election on a commitment to legalise all drugs and so it is not going to happen until public opinion changes first. We need to work on the electorate not the politicians at this stage. I do not think the Home Secretary is looking at reclassifying cannabis because there has just been a change of heart in the Cabinet. He senses a change in public opinion.
WoW - I would love to fight back against the lies that are being trailed around about the cannabis pilot. My bosses are not ready to go with it yet. Patience is a virtue :( . I am going away for 3 weeks. I will be mad if they publish the results while I am away.
hatboy - I think there should be zero tolerance - zero tolerance of those things the local community say there should be zero tolerance of and tolerance of those things the local people say we should go easy on. I know, who are the local community? Can a community have thoughts? But you get the idea. I can do most things given enough officers - and I mean sensitivity, caring, hard on the villains, easy on the innocent - whatever you guys want.
Gotta run - boyfirend's home! Please, please keep this going. I will get back in 3 weeks but I really do need a break. Take care you guys.
Brian
Scary grans and scary mums - how do we get them into action? There is real mileage in this.
Scary grans and scary aunts, was my thought. A bit of honesty and a bit of humility and some funding. Go round the churches and confess that the powers that be need help. I think there is a dynamic about the gender and the generational thing, partly because the problem is largely caused by young men, who are hopped up into a cycle of machismo and self pity and despair. They need help, but a man in uniform of their own age or older is just going to be perceived as a conflict situation.
My recruitment speech would be something like this:
"Ok. There's no-one who knows what's going on like grans and aunts. There's no-one else who has the same respect. They might not act like it, they might not show it, but deep down everybody respects their aunt and their gran. Now we've come here for help, because we're losing the fight against drugs and violence, and you know we are.
Now, nobody objects to a little grass or a little rum, but when it comes down to needles and guns and knives, you know it's gone too far. When it comes to little kids stealing their homes to get a fix you know they need help. And, sure they need medical help, but they also need persuasion, they need love, they need tough love, otherwise they never get to where they need to get to.
Also. Take my men - and they mostly are men, and they mostly don't know the area or the community - going up to some hopped up crack dealer on Railton Road. You know that's just going to lead to conflict, to macho bullshit, to someone getting hurt. And there's no way anyone's going to think that that cop has any concern for the crack head himself and the trouble he's in.
Now, if instead that guy's gran, or someone who looks and sounds like that guy's gran is there everyday, showing care, showing concern, and showing toughness, it isn't going to be the same. Number one he can't bring himself to hurt someone who reminds him of his gran. Number two, no-body is going to buy shit off him with you around. You've messed up his pitch. You spend some time trying to get through to him. You tell him where he can get help. But whatever, you've messed up his pitch, you've saved a couple of kids. That's enough.
So we want your help. An evening a week. Payment by the shift. Patrols in two and threes. Some kind of uniform to identify you. Training in drugs awareness and in conflict resolution. Plus back-up from trained and capable cops. How about it?"
Is that such a stupid idea? I dunno. What do other urbanites think?
wastedbloke
15-02-2002, 02:41
Personally I have to take this right back to a point Brian made at the beginning of this thread:
"As long as there is the demand ...... there will be street dealers."
He's right!
My guess is that many of the people on U75 contribute to that demand but what we don't want to see is the seedy, violent, intimidatory practices that take place on the likes of Cold Harbour Lane.
I know some of the people contributing to this (mighty) thread and I know they also take drugs. You are therefore part of the "demand" Brian refers to. Don't deny it! Don't try and wash your hands/disassociate yourself from the nasty side of it. You are an inarguable part of the cycle.
I'm not about to offer any immediate solutions to Brixton's (etc, etc) drug problem. I don't think there is one.
If there is a solution at all its about taking responsibility for one's own environment - on mass that will make a difference.
Don't deal with wankers!!!
If your dealer is connected to a killing then ditch them - they are scum!!! Just don't fucking go there!!!
On a societal level we determine our own laws. Furthermore we determine our own codes of practice - we create our own environment - and while "we" people continue to deny our own role in the drugs market we continue to allow the rot to set in.
Walk down Cold Harbour Lane and look that prick (OK so he's a stooge - but he is at the customer service delivery end of the industry and therefore the interface) in the eye with disgust.
If the demand stream starts to have moral values then the suppliers will follow suit - they have to.
Its down to us.
wasted
xxx
William of Walworth
15-02-2002, 07:30
Good post wasted :
If your dealer is connected to a killing then ditch them
Well, my man (not in Brixton, nor Walworth ;) will ONLY sell hash/weed, and not on the street, and only to people he knows.
This has been my situation for quite a while ...not saying he's not part of a chain, but it's a one product only supply chain and his Mr Medium just above won't touch other products because of the risk of violence. Separation model on the supply side ;)
But I think I'm in the minority of "consumers" overall, so, yes, wasted identifies a real problem.
EXCELLENT POST BRUISE!! :) Anyone in Brixton think of any objections? Not sure I can, but I suppose it's worth wondering whether there are some dealers so hard core, so far gone, with so little organic/family connection from the area (they might drive in from Harlesden or something?) that they are beyond Gran telling him to come right here and shut up for one second bwoy and listen!
BUT others who know Brixton better wil know better.
Just to back up what Brian was saying about Coldharbour Lane, I was down there having me lunch yesterday and the police were arresting a bloke (almost certainly) for dealing. Looked fairly major - took 4 coppers and a van to do it.
So, it does happen.
sonicdancer
15-02-2002, 10:03
sorry to be an old cynic but sticking aunts and grans down Cold Harbour Lane is the most ludicrous thing I have heard so far, they would be shot. I dont think you'll find any angry grans who would go down there its far to intimidating, some of these dealers are heavy heavy guys. Im sorry that suggestion doesnt hold any water at all for me. :(
William of Walworth
15-02-2002, 10:07
I admit I was wondering about that, but it wouldn't be your
only strategy, just a back up one.
You could experiment with employing them in less high tension locations first ... I doubt you'd ever be able to send them down Colharbour at midnight Saturday!! :eek:
But there other places and other times. Bruise?
Dear all
I have just read a long thread from y'all about various things, and i have counted about 4 different people who call themselves scum or wasted or whatever.
Considering, you are the waker-uppers of society, I think your pseudonyms should be more positive about yourselves, yeh? Or have i lost the plot; i mean, are they sorta jokes?
Love andria
A point that I don't think has been raised yet, is that Brixton in general, and Coldharbour Lane in particular is a victim of its own success.
A certain amount of ghetto tourism is at work. Many people come from outside the area to socialise in Brixton. I have a hunch that for many people, rather that being intimidated by the dealers, they are part of the entertainment. The opportunity to see real life bad-assed black gangsters and the chance perhaps of a major police bust adds to the kudos of the area. If this wasn't the case then I doubt bars like the Dogstar and the Living Room would be so successful and attract so many Claphamites and Chelsea people.
I find the suggestion that the propriotors of such venues pay for extra police hypocritical, when they actually feed off the relatively benign 'street entertainment'. Like I have said elsewhere on this thread, Brixton's problems are neither unique nor particularly bad. I suspect the problem would be smaller, if Brixton's nightlife, both bar owners and clubbers, didn't take advantage of the situation.
Dear Slowdog
It may be that there is some truth in what your saying, but it is probably equally true that people are just going to Brixton because it's diversity is huge and this also makes it an interesting olace 2 b.
The idea that being at gun point/knife point is kinda 'entertaining' is a little weird. I may have got you wrong there - I get things wrong a lot. But as one who has been held at both 'points' I need to add it is also terrifying and deeply demoralising. I would like to relate one of these stories but I feel uneasy about deepening a stereotype
Anyone decided about this medical marijuana benefit yet?
Andria
It is a point that seems to have escaped some people that there has been a thriving street drugs trade - confined to puff only -down Coldharbour Lane for many ,many, years , long before the first Brixton Riots. Indeed ,if I recall correctly the first riots followed a heavy handed 'crack down' by the police on the local drugs trade .And the reason given then was the 'escalation' in related 'street crime' .Remember the 'SPG' and the 'SUSS' laws ?
What seems to have changed is the product on sale , and the scale of the trade ? Would people feel the same if it was puff instead of crack and H on sale ?
Brixton has long had a population of minority and working class peoples who are marginalised ,crimminalised and disavantaged economicaly ,socially and educationally .The 'drugs trade' was nurtured by the Thatcherite regime of the 1980's whose credos was 'there is no such thing as society' . Thatcher and Co did more than anyone to expand and develop the drugs trade in the impoverished inner city areas of the UK. Some can recall bags of smack - kilo bags - doing the rounds which had seizure stamps on them just after the first riots . The UK Black communities had long been associated with 'ganja' use but heroin and Cocaine were very much a cultural taboo except within very small circles (the Jazz scene for example).The mass unemployment of the 80's , a deliberate policy of the UK Goverment of the time had a huge and disproportianate impact on areas like Brixton .Coupled with USA and UK third world politics -Afganistan War ,Columbia ,etc ,all financed by the drugs trade ,the conditions were ripe for a 'break though' for Heroin and Cocaine in
urban areas of the UK .Coincident with this was the emergence of USA 'rap' culture and style as a role model for UK Black and white youth .Hard drug use was set for an explosive expansion and inroads into communities where it had not even had a toehold before . Who remembers the 'Smack' epidemic in Southwark circa 83/84 .Followed by Liverpool ,Edinborough ,Glasgow ,Manchester ,then the rest of urban UK .No one should underestimate the attractions and economic imperitives ' fuelling the expansion in the drugs trade . For many it was the only feasable 'career option' - it led to wealth ,style and peer group respect . For marginalised youth with low expectations ,low esteem and little chance of 'advancement' this offered the chance of 'escape' and 'riches' .
A few hundred quid could start a major business .
As some posters have pointed out disproportianate attention is paid to 'Black Yardie' crime gangs- the Adams families and others dont merit a mention . The Yardies shift a relatively insignificant amount of drugs into the UK - yes their use of violence is marked - but in reality the big movers and shakers in the UK drugs scene are 'untouchable' and never get into the press they have the political , fiscal ,and social contacts to make them so .And they use violence - just discreetly -or less so in the case of the USA .The lack of anaylisis and press coverage , unless 10 years after the event is marked.Anyone who believes that the 'State'/ MI5/MI6 and Special Branch have not themselves been knee deep in the international drugs trade for many years is niave . Afganistan , Pakistan ,Burma ,etc are British spheres of 'influence'Anyone remember the case of the senior UK Army Intelligence Officer with extensive involvement in covert ops in Northern Ireland getting busted with 100's of kilos of dope pressed into the body work of his car ? Just at the time that Protestent Terror Groups were exchanging drugs for guns etc ?The Officer claimed he had no knowlege of the drugs pressed into the body work of his car !!A car he collected in Southern Spain !!!He must have been a piss poor 'intelligence op'!!! The officer involved got a year's soft time in a Scandinavian Jail , kept his mouth shut and retained his commmision ? Strange huh?The story was that the UK Gov ( or elements within it ) was washing money - xchanging it for drugs - xchanging drugs for guns in the Dam and then shipping the guns back to NI Prots . The UK govs involvement by this time being untraceable .
And we have the 'Stalker' Affair .A senior and respected UK 'liberal' Police Officer, acceptable to the 'Nationalist 'community, is asked to conduct an enquiry into alleged RUC 'Shoot to Kill' covert ops - as he digs up the dirt and a lot of 'dirt' there is ,he 'unexpectedly 'resigns' ? A rumour - with much credence - circulated at this time is that Stalker had a very close family relative who was heroin dependent - exposure , disgrace ,imprisoment of the relative ,and other threats were brought to bear - Stalker resigns ? Wheels within wheels !Hey I am on a rant here and have wandered way off topic into a 'history lesson' .
Anyway I'll conclude by saying that Brian Paddock merits support but do not underestimate the the pressures that can be brought to bear on him ,the complexity of the situation he is dealing with , the history behind it ,and sheer 'Machiavellian' machinations of 'power' and 'reactionary' forces .There is no simple 'magic bullet' to cure the social ills that afflict Brixton AND other inner city , working class and marginalised communities , in the UK .
And 'heavy' policing will most certainly not be a solution to these problems . Part of the problem with Brixton /Lambeth is that the 'middle classes' have started to move into the area and are now 'mobilising' big time and its the 'middle class' who are active 'New' Labour Voters /constituents .And at the risk of offending , many members of this list fit the profile( myself included although as a Degree holding ,opioid dependent benifit claimee maybe I dont!!) . Its no coincidence that similar attention in the media and the Met is being given to Stoke Newington - another area where the middle classes have moved in en-force . Now the politicaly active 'New Labour' voting middle class have moved into these areas - 'social conflict' ensues :eek: The working classes have had to deal with these problems and the like for time 'imemorial' but thats another 'thread' .I am retiring to my bunker with my tin helmet on now .A 'devils advocate' ranting Alan J:cool:
William of Walworth
15-02-2002, 17:50
Excelent post Alan, excellent, respect :)
I will reread it properly Monday ...
But in answer to your question :
Would people feel the same if it was puff instead of crack and H on sale ?
Frankly, no! (see my post above)
Dear Andria
I too have been on the receiving end of this city's violence, and you are right, it is no laughing matter.
The point I was trying to make, and obviously failed, is that Coldharbour Lane, in my opinion is relatively harmless. Another poster on this thread has described how her kids are harassed and bullied in other parts of Brixton, but tellingly says her son feels quite secure on Coldharbour Lane. My experience of that street is that it is a circus, there are more clowns than gangsters there. Con artists selling rocks of soap and lawn trimmings to gullible outsiders who are happy to get a glimpse of the ghetto without the risk of a journey into the really nasty areas of the city.
I am sure there are some genuinely dangerous characters down there. However, the only time I have been intimidated and threatened on that street was at the hands of the police during a blatantly racist stop and search while walking between pubs!
Would people feel the same if it was puff instead of crack and H on sale ?Alan J
Well actually, no, I wouldn't feel the same.
I have never seen anybody
a)die from an OD of grass, (the Norway 6 was a heap of bullshit. Check the research evidence,it really wasn't reliable AND y'know logicvally even if it was, if there have been no deaths for thousands of years and then an international movement to legalise the stuff emerges, I wonder who could be wasting time telling porkies like that one...)
b) share needles in the admin of it and
c) then live/die with AIDS.
But I have all the above with crack, smack and charlie.
William of Walworth; I'd be really interested to know why you would feel the same. It is not quite true that a drug's a drug's a drug, and all that. The problems/disturbance on the streets does get more intense when the drug is H or C doesn't it, wheher its cops or dealers, or strung-out users or whatever.
The collateral damage of the drug-war in this scenario grows enormously.
Respect
Andria
Terrific post Alan J.
You're right about Coldharbour Lane Slowdog. It isn't where all the danger is, but as the current "frontline" can represent more in this discussion. I personally know afew people whose dealing consists almost entirely of selling all manner of substances that are not drugs but are sold as, to the naive.
Correct me if I've misunderstood Wiiliam, but why would you be equally against street weed dealers? The chaotic behavior, gun crime and violence is not associated with cannabis use or dealing IMO. I remember Brixton and more particularly Railton Rd frontline when weed was the main trade and to me the atmosphere was far less theatening then. (Pedantic point - Atlantic runs up as far as Marcus Garvey Way, it's Railton from that point on).
The "supergran" idea is hilarious. It's also patronising and abit racist IMO to think that grans and aunties have such a mythical status in black households that black crack dealers are going to take advice from their, let alone anyone elses granny! Ridiculous, but made me laugh thanks. In a wider context I do get the gist tho about having respect for your elders.
Dear Andria ,
If you read my post carefully and with thought you will see that the question I ask is a lot more complex and loaded than it may appear at first sight . There are profound 'class' , racial ,political, economic ,historic ,cultural factors interplaying in this -at first sight- straight forward question .And yes there is a real issue of the Middle class 'embourgousification' of Brixton .Coldharbour lane ,and surrounding areas 'involved' here .
The same 'arguments' that are deployed to justify 'cracking down' on the current street trade in crack cocaine and h were deployed in the 70's /early 80's about the 'street trade' in puff .I do not deny the reality of the complex problems surrounding the street trade but I do reject the simplification of this complex set of problems and there history by those who should know better .
And as it happens i can remember scoring puf on the street in Brixton and Notting Hill being distinctly 'threatening' and 'intimidating' and associated with rip offs and violence at the time (70's-early 80's ) - the drugs may have change but to my recall the scene hasn't .Thats why I never ,ever ,scored on the 'street'- its strictly for those who don't know better. Interesting that the Opiate scene around the Dilly and the West End has never been associated with the same degree of violence - most of those involved 'know' each other .
What I would dare to suggest Andria , is that there has been a significant 'middle clas' and 'educated' influx of population into the Brixton area who are able to mobilise and articulate their demands -and get them met - far more effectivley than has previously been the case .There was no 'touchy feely' policing when Brixton was considered an undesirable 'ghetto' .The same process is now going on in Southwark , as it did in Campden ,Hackney ,Bethnal green, Shepards Bush ,Islington ,Chiswick and so on . Unemployement rises , the affluent organised working class move out ,the squatters and students and housing co-ops move in , then in come the middle classes and lo and behold 'crime' becomes an issue. Can we see a pattern emerging here ? New York has followed a similar pathway !! And look where 'zero tolereance' was developed !!!With respect Alan J.
Mmm. I feel sure the weed scene was less threatening. If only because of the much more peaceful way weed effects people.
My Nan hasn't got time to don a uniform and start patrolling the back streets of Brixton. She's far too worn out from years of scrubbing floors and backsides in the NHS. Would any of you put your Nan on the streets as part of Britains drug control policy???
Commander - you said of the dealers:
'...the feeling that there is no legitimate way of earning a living.......but that's what we've done to these people'
Yes that is the legacy that has been left to us by the slavery system, but it is not an excuse. Some of these dealers are just plain lazy and want to get rich quick without having to go through the hard graft.
Dealers follow the line of least resistance and when you partially decriminalised Cannabis in Brixton it was like putting up a sign saying 'Dealers come to Brixton, we want your products!'.
And as far as ignoring weekend recreational users is concerned, well who do you think caused the explosion in Brixton drug dealing in the first place?
To quote Slowdog 'Brixton is not an island'
Boomclick - 'I can't remember the last time I saw police around Brixton centre' me neither, but I do remember a rather large, older West Indian policeman who used to patrol Brixton centre about 10 years ago. He would actually have members of the community coming up to him and shaking his hand. But 10 years ago Brixton was a much friendlier place.
:( :(
Dear 'Jo' take a peep a my last two posts on page 7 .Alan J.:eek:
Yes , I've just re-read them, its a clear case of the first world meets the 3rd world IMO.
sonicdancer
16-02-2002, 08:59
mmm excellent posts alanj, I am regurgatating what you have said in my head, and identify the patterns you have mentioned and its association with the frontline and crime in general in that area.
This caused me to think b/c I hate the idea of disagreeing with Hatboy. And, actually I don't.
The "supergran" idea is hilarious. It's also patronising and abit racist IMO to think that grans and aunties have such a mythical status in black households that black crack dealers are going to take advice from their, let alone anyone elses granny! Ridiculous, but made me laugh thanks. In a wider context I do get the gist tho about having respect for your elders.
To take the patronising and a bit racist bit first:
It's a stereotype that gran is a power within many Black British households, and is functions closer to a mum to many. With a germ of truth.
It's a stereotype that Italians love their mums and their grans, almost to the point of worship. With a germ of truth.
It's a stereotype that w/c white communities like in Bermondsey or where ever are very protective towards their mums, and the nan is hugely important, often powerful figure. Again a germ of truth.
It's a stereotype that m/c kids love their mummies, but have a special place for their granny.
It's a stereotype that u/c kids often have difficult, cold relationships with their parents, but very warm ones with their grannies. Again a germ of truth.
It's a stereotype that Antyji and granny are often seen as very important in Asian families, and are given the right to meddle in all the kids' affairs. Again a germ of truth.
How many stereotypes does it take before you realise that each community has some version of the stereotype, which is based, partially on some truth. It might be particularly true of communities under attack and subject to pressure that they draw on such an important resource. However, I find it strange that there's such a similar stereotype about just about every community you can think of, but yet it's not acknowldged as simply a universal truth. Why not?
I actually didn't have a particular community in mind when I was putting forward the suggestion.
You might be right and it is hilarious. Sonicdancer might have even more of a point with pointing out the potential dangers - I think he thinks most crack dealers are more 'far gone' than I would hope, but that could be naivety on my part.
BTW, I was just kite-flying, and don't mind in the slightest if people think it a ludicrous idea. I'm not entirely convinced myself. Just wish there was ways of tapping into more community action, less heavy-handed police action, and some way of reaching out to the low-level dealers themselves, who need help as much as anybody.
(Also, I regret the 'scary' earlier - shows lack of respect)
Perhaps I was abit harsh Bruise. It wasn't a personal attack on you. And like I say, I do get the gist. In a way it's a nice idea, but it is a fantasy.
Reddolly
16-02-2002, 19:07
Aside from the seriously heavy drugs/dealing/ gun issues I feel Bruise has hit on a good point with this macho - don't give a shit image thing. There seems to be an increasing number of young teenage boys/girls with this attitude. My mate a couple of weeks ago got threatened at knife point for whatever he had on him. It's a ridiculous situation and these young people know they can get away with so much under current law.
I read about this new project scheme in Lambeth, where offending teenagers attended skill building projects by day and were on curfew by night, freeing up detention centres and costing less too. We need more of these kind of schemes. At present there isn't much to do for teenagers around here - unless money is involved.
I would agree with that. Obviously it's not the whole story, but the fact that facilities for teenagers and local youth have to fight for survival but there's always room for "luxuury apartments" is a scandal. I expect an expolsion, I really do. I can only judge from local because this is where I am and I am probably stuck now. But I am shocked by the shortsightedness of the powers that be.
freethepeeps
17-02-2002, 10:36
from today's Observer (http://www.observer.co.uk/race/story/0,11255,651769,00.html)
Jasper, writing in today's Observer, says: 'Young black men have found support amongst peers whose creed is "live rich, live fast and don't give a damn about society". People from all classes drive into our communities to buy their recreational drugs. They then go to their homes in the peaceful suburbs, leaving the black community to live with violent drug dealers prepared to kill at the drop of a hat.'
That article rings true with me, and I have campaigned alongside Lee Jasper in the past.
The whole subject just makes me feel very very sad. :( :(
freethepeeps
17-02-2002, 12:24
A lot of it rings true for me, too.
I worry about his conclusion though, working with the police is not enough, there needs to be a strategy to address some of the problems that he quotes eg high unemployment rates and high rates of incarceration on psychiatric wards.
I too am saddened by the situation.
:( :(
William of Walworth
18-02-2002, 07:41
Andria asked :
William of Walworth ; I'd be really interested to know why you would feel the same. It is not quite true that a drug's a drug's a drug, and all that. The problems/disturbance on the streets does get more intense when the drug is H or C doesn't it, wheher its cops or dealers, or strung-out users or whatever.
And Hatboy asked :
Correct me if I've misunderstood Wiiliam, but why would you be equally against street weed dealers? The chaotic behavior, gun crime and violence is not associated with cannabis use or dealing IMO. I remember Brixton and more particularly Railton Rd frontline when weed was the main trade and to me the atmosphere was far less theatening then.
Oops! Misunderstanding! My response to Alan was that I would NOT feel the same about H and C dealing as about weed dealing, ie I have been/would be much more laid back about the latter.
In other words I would agree with you both, Andria, and hatboy. Apols if that wasn't clear!
grubby local
18-02-2002, 10:56
One of Britain’s top policemen, who spearheaded the softly-softly approach to cannabis use, has broken more new ground – by opening his heart about drugs and politics on a subversive website.
Brian Paddick, the high-profile commander of the London Borough of Lambeth, has written 24 ‘posts’ since January under the name ‘Brian: The Commander’ – in a discussion with members of the website urban75.com, renowned for its coverage of direct-action protests, drugs and anarchism.
On the bulletin boards where users register to post messages, Paddick, 43, who describes his interests as "police, gay issues, drugs", discussed a recent march by Movement for Justice in Brixton, asked for suggestions for Lambeth Police’s new slogan, and explained his cannabis scheme , whereby those found in possession of the drug were merely cautioned.
In one debate, titled ‘Guns/ Crack: The Commander – your opinion please?’, Paddick said his "bottom line [is] screw the dealers, help the addicts". He expanded on his softly-softly approach to drug use: "We need to take the criminality out of it [drugs] by legislation and strict control. We need to keep pushing the boundaries."
Last week he told The Big Issue: "Clearly, we are not getting it right in terms of dealing with the problems of dealing in Class A drugs in Brixton. What the boards have enabled me to do is get a feel for what people think from their perspective versus what I know."
The commander became aware of the boards when a colleague informed him of racist and inflammatory posts by one of his own officers. He said no action had yet been taken in this case.
Paddick, Britain’s highest-ranking openly gay police officer, emphasises that he is posting his personal, not official views. So far, his superior officers remain unaware of his activity.
"I thought people would tell me to go away," said Paddick. In fact, the ensuing debate on guns and crack in Brixton has set the bulletin boards alight on the popular site, which has 4,000 members and is visited a million times a month.
"There’s an understandable stereotype based on the history of minority groups and the police that police officers are right-wing, racist, sexist and homophobic and not interested in anyone else’s views. Things have radically changed but people’s views have not changed. By engaging in a personal way on the boards I can break down these stereotypes," he told The Big Issue.
Commander Paddick’s detractors will seize on some of his comments. "The concept of anarchism has always appealed to me," he said on one post. "Do not treat all police officers as lapdogs of a corrupt capitalist system. Dogs sometimes turn on their owners," he wrote on another.
He said the only thing he regrets writing is a throw-away line on pop music. "I think a comment I made about Kylie was a bit shallow! I have been described as politically naive. If this means I say what’s in my heart, I’m happy to be labelled as such. I’m either brave or stupid."
Paddick now says he is looking to create internal bulletin boards for officers to speak to each other confidentially at the station.
Brixton-based urban75 editor Mike Slocombe said: "Brian is to be commended for having the bottle to do it. The biggest difference is that you actually feel like he’s listening. He replies to what you say."
"This is the first copper I’ve ever come across who has had the imagination and sheer common sense to open up a police/public channel of communication in this way," said one poster, ‘Red Jezza’.
A Metropolitan Police spokeswoman said that there was no written policy on serving officers posting to bulletin boards and would leave it up to the individual. Posting inflammatory material would be investigated, she said.
See: www.urban75.com.
--- ends ----
I've spoken to Commander Paddick and he assures me that despite earlier comments he made, he will be back posting on these boards when he gets back from holiday in three weeks time
That's great. Very positive. And Red Jazza even gets a name-check! (Hatboy goes green). :rolleyes: :)
Hatboy, just you wait 'till Brians boyfriend find out he said he loves you!!:D
TinyCrendon
19-02-2002, 09:23
In the Independent today too...p4 ish i think. And dont look at me i had nothing to do with this publicity business. Nothing worth reporting in my view.
I think its turned out v depressing this thread. Very. I think Mr Paddick, though it was nice of him to reply and so on, is deeply disillusioning. A typical gatekeeper. Am I the only one ? Judging by the level of thought and allowed action theres gonna be a lot more dead people.
But hey...it's coooooooooool maaaaaaaaaaaaan. Thats the way it is maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan...you cant do nuffing about it maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan...
corporate whore
19-02-2002, 09:37
Adam you're way too jaded, maaaaaan - hope it's not contagious.
Oh & the Evening Fucking Standard has splashed big on this today...front page lead "Met Chief Finds Anarchism Attractive" ... for fucks sake..
:eek:
They seem to be making a really big thing about this! When its nothing really, anyone can come here and express there opinions! At least its giving loads of publicity for this site! :D
William of Walworth
19-02-2002, 09:57
Standard thingie here (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/top_story.html?in_review_id=500613&in_review_text_id=463305)
I hope this attraction to Anarchism will not lead him down that well trodden path of:
Wearing black clothes
Living off the dole
Eating lentils
Dogs on string
Listening to Conflict
Throwing rocks from the back
B.O
Quoting bakuinin whilst off ones head on ketamine...
Er..That's it...
:D
William of Walworth
19-02-2002, 10:00
Independent version here (http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=134207)
They're so lazy aren't they. these "journalists"? Just recycling the Big Issue story.
This thread and discussion and more to the point Brians contribution to it have just hit the National ITV News under the story line ' Top Cop Stirs Up More Controversy' !!!!!! It would be a terrible pity and shame if Brians very positive contributions to an excellent debate are used against him by those vested interests that deem him a threat . It is a pity that he is away at the moment and cant be here to defend himself against potential detractors/attack .Let those of us who have valued and welcomed his contribution keep an eye on things as they pan out .Alan J.:eek:
sonicdancer
19-02-2002, 10:51
this is very sad news , not good news I think.
Who knows, maybe it will encourage more policemen to think about their profession more clearly. Remember, important debates like these are very rarley acknowleged in the mainstream press.
Well I didn't think it would ever happen but I finally have respect for a policeman! Lets hope Brian is not just the exception that proves the rule, and there are more decent cops out there.
Streathamite
19-02-2002, 12:43
I smell real danger here...in one bound, Brian AND Mike AND U75 have become the national hate-figure for every hate-filled,reactionary dinosaur in Britain... and what I regard (despite Adam's somewhat negative appraisal) as an important and constructive debate gets turned into a meejah smear-storm.
Christ,Ihope-for Brixton's sake-that he keeps his job.
Well the lunch time bbc report was okay! I think Mike came across well and got the points accross good and the commander didnt get slated..
zeedoodles
19-02-2002, 12:53
Yeh good interview Mike and great to stress that this Brian chap actually LISTENS to some of us. Not many police,political people or even media people LISTEN. Brian is a top dude IMHO and we should support him if they try to smear or kick him out.
A LISTENING POLICE MAN HOW REFERSHING:D
(next thing there all be wanting party invites):eek:
Streathamite
19-02-2002, 13:07
we should support him if they try to smear or kick him out.
Too damn right, Zee. And now-as the shit's gonna fall heavy over the next few days, we need to start thinking how we can best do so. Suggestions/practical steps, anyone?
TinyCrendon
19-02-2002, 13:10
.
zeedoodles
19-02-2002, 13:13
Re - reading Brian's posts again he talks so much sence, it is very hard to see how anyone could have a problem with him.
zeedoodles
19-02-2002, 13:20
Has he not already taken some steps by revising the police attitude to cannabis in the area ????????.
Waiting to be shot down in flames by those more astute in these matters than me:(
TinyCrendon
19-02-2002, 13:32
.
This is my first post on Urban75. I joined because of this debate.
Everyone who supports Paddick should WRITE to the newspapers who are attempting to distort what he's on about.
The forces of reaction are circling, it is up to US to defend him.
zeedoodles
19-02-2002, 13:42
I am not half as literate (sp) as you and probably a lot less capable of writing and debating. I am more of a tree hugger than a politician. I just think the chap has taken some time to come here look at the site, listen to peoples views and answer questions that is more than most of his kind ever dream about.
So IMHO he deserves some respect.
I am not stupid and realise that the most likely nothing will change because of his posting here, but it has sparked debate on a London level in the news etc and that has to be good.
Havanna Cigars At Pleasing Prices
19-02-2002, 14:03
Adam,
your borderline-hysterical posts suggesting the hopelessness of dealing with these ruling 'elites' would seem to be more in keeping with the threads about the Lizards And Other Secret Rulers Of The World...are you an Icke-Lizard-Lover in disguise? C'mon come clean.
It's been said before but - Adam P: I think you've now stated your belief that Brian's presence here, or in the met, won't have a significant effect on anything. If this is what you believe, then why not leave the discussion alone. I think a lot of people have found it useful as an exchange of ideas about local policing issues in Brixton.
You can always start a new thread about the philosophy of policing, the possibility (or not) of change etc.
TinyCrendon
19-02-2002, 14:16
.
TO ALL PEOPLE FROM THE MEDIA READING THIS:
The story is not "Anarchy appeals to top cop".
The story is "Top cop is applauded by local people for engaging with them and listening to their ideas"
I am partially responsible for all this since I am the person who started this thread. Like several others here I live in Brixton and know it well. Brian Paddick's already proving himself an asset to the area. His experiment on relaxing the cannabis laws has been officially pronounced a success, street-crime is down (official figures today) and he is gaining the confidence of people (black and white) across the community. REPORT THAT PLEASE.
Havanna Cigars At Pleasing Prices
19-02-2002, 15:16
it was cheap...although I would like to think Pleasing...;) but perhaps only for myself.
Adam - you put very valid points across, and I broadly agree with what you are saying about de-criminalisation. Your posts reek of pessimism though without the qualification of composure...but maybe you are just privy to information/experience that we can only guess at? :confused:
chairman_miaow
19-02-2002, 15:20
What has Super Cop done to bring to justice all the people that his colleagues have killed? Derek Bennet, Ricky Bishop etc etc etc?
I don't see any justice for those people?
It's easy to knock Paddick's motives and reasons for posting here, but ultimately it doesn't matter.
All that really matters is that he has been directly responsible for stimulating one of the best and most engaging debates about drugs and community policing that I've read in a long time, and the subsequent huge publicity means that the issues are getting the attention they deserve.
Personally, I've grown to respect the man.
May I ask that others who wish to broaden the scope of this debate and challenge Paddick on topics such as police brutality and racism, please do so in another thread.
Adding more and more issues unrelated to the main drug theme will only result in an unworkable, unfocussed thread.
I've been following the debate for a few weeks now but not being a Brixtonite never felt the need to reply. But what has happened today could be really bad. In these times of spin and bullshit it's refreshing to see senior officials that aren't afraid to express what they feel and go out on a limb and my fear is that the Commander is going to be the subject of a witch-hunt in the reactionary press. That would be a tragedy!
I fully conncur with our dear Editors comments . Brian Paddik has shown more intelligence and commitment to open ,honest ,debate and discussion than many in power ever do . As a result of the quality of this debate the issues raised and this thread are now being discussed nationally , Mr Paddick isn't personaly responsible for all the ills committed by the Met , with more officers like him perhaps we would see far less policing by force and much more policing by consent . He has stuck his neck right out on the 'chopping block' by posting here and being so open with us , big RESPECT to him for that .As an advocate of the legalisation of all drugs , a supporter of harm minimisation , I am glad to see that he has engaged in debate in manner which is absent of any of the condescention and patronisation that we usualy get treated to by those in positions of 'power' .Indeed Mr Paddik represents a very real threat to entrenched vested interest groups in the Met and elsewhere . And a big WELL DONE to Hatboy for starting this thread and to our Dear Editor for all his hard work on the site and in the 'media' today .Go get yourself a drink Mike and put a big cheesy smile on :D
I think the timing of the press getting hold of this debate has been almost perfect.
Mayor Giuiliani's less than helpful comments at the end of last week about cannabis use leading to violent crime (I mean, come on????) needed to be countered by some serious informed wide scale debate.
I share peoples fears that this could turn into a press witch hunt for Mr Paddick. Having spoken to a number of people though I'm confident most people who read the comments of this thread will see the hugely important value that can be gained from someone in Brian's position accessing all a variety of mechanisms to interact and communicate regularly with community members.
chipshot
19-02-2002, 16:04
Thanks for this,
Hatboy, Brian and Ed - top stuff
I hope the current press don't use the brixton debate here as a weapon against this sort of discussion, I think I can hear the sound of middle england begining to turn the page of todays daily mail ! "Bunch of lefty anarchist blah, blah, blah...."
There was discussion of, within Brixton there being places for people to buy Crack etc that wasn't street corners. That house or street being to all people almost seperate from the rest of the area. Would this not give the dealers a "seat of power"? An area of terrotory unchallanged to expand from ?
Does middle England consider Brixton to be this exact thing but in a larger scale ? Have the powers that be written off the area ?
Is the only answer here to attempt a pilot study of Medically backed Crack treatment. Take 50 current users. Try taking them out of the dealer loop. See if crime drops !
In short this debate is about solving a problem in Brixton, that is now open to everyone nation wide. Those new to the discussion -particulalrly from the press - try starting with articles with constructive ideas, hopefully moving away from the "anarchist cop - sells papers ! line.... it's a shortcut to thinking !
William of Walworth
19-02-2002, 16:25
Mayor Giuiliani's less than helpful comments at the end of last week about cannabis use leading to violent crime (I mean, come on????) needed to be countered by some serious informed wide scale debate.
Bookere, did Giuliani really say that?? Missed it if so!
Youn are right, informed discussion on these issues essential, and Brian's engagement here has been a part of that, whereas in contrast a visiting New Yorker's stupid (it seems) comments very much have NOT
Respect to the Commander, and also to Hatboy's post .....
Listen to the locals, media!
TinyCrendon
19-02-2002, 16:38
.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you, Adam.
Paddick is doing far more good fighting for change within the police force, even if it does involve him getting flack from others and pissing off the top brass.
If he leaves the force his influence would shrink accordingly and I for one am finding this direct line to a senior police commander useful and productive.
Yeah
I'd go along with that. The last thing anybody wants is for the old school old bill like those embodied by Glyn Smythe and the bully-boyFederation to take over again. We need more coppers like the Commander and who knows maybe in a few years time we'll all live in a better place?
Ah, reminds me of something that I heard on a Tool CD.
This is not a War on Drugs, this is a War on
Personal Freedom. Please bear that in mind at all times.
IMO the answer to the drug crime problem is simple:
Promote the use of ibogaine (http://www.ibogaine.org.uk) to remove people's dependancies on hard drugs.
Legalise all drugs, and make them available from chemists.
Promote the idea that drugs are not bad in themselves, it is people's misrespect of their power whence problems come.
RubyToogood
19-02-2002, 17:10
If you're interested, Brian Paddick's "anarchism" comments are on this page (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=361&perpage=30&pagenumber=3) of the Brixton Movement for Justice March thread. You'll see from the context that he is simply replying to the post about anarchism made by ginger (then known as ginger nuts :) ).
TinyCrendon
19-02-2002, 17:13
.
johnwisehammer
19-02-2002, 17:16
"Does middle England consider Brixton to be this exact thing but in a larger scale?"
Ooh, absoutely, I agree with you there - it sounds a bit flippant but if one of those crack dealers started hanging around Cullens on the Kings Road instead of Costcutters on Coldharbour Lane (or whatever), you can bet he'd be whipped off the street instantly and (I believe) that's absolutely to with the fact that Chelsea residents have more political, social and economic clout than Brixton ones. I've always thought that non-policed zones were a shit halfway-house for dumping social problems on the poor - but I wouldn't object too much if they had it in Belgravia as it's "such a good idea".
I'd also say that "tolerance zones" for otherwise illegal behaviour already exist in the UK so it's not some space-age wild idea at all - in Edinburgh, there's a "non-policed" area for prostitution in Leith and in Leeds or somewhere as I understand it. In Amsterdam, they've built sort of car parks with bus shelters each side of each space for privacy and of course we all know about the shooting up rooms (here ends the obligatory Dutch reference). But can anyone think of an industrial estate or spare space near Brixton which would be suitable? Wouldnae think so.
You never know Adam, we live in hope!
You never know Adam, with a few more Brian Paddicks around we could live in hope! Wherever that is.
Platinum
19-02-2002, 18:16
This might not be a popular opinion, but Drug addicts and even the dealers who addmittedly peddle these 'commodities' are people. We will not ever begin to tackle these problems until we can come to terms with what drives such people. What makes persons value themselves so little that they are prepared to poison themselves, furthermore what makes a person value others so minimally that they are prepared to profit from their despair. In my late teens I lived in the Granby Triangle, and was around both the taking and distribution of illicit narcotics. It is the feeling of separation from the reality of our shared humanity that is the real problem. If people dare to have hopes for themselves and the people around them, however hopeless they may seem, then we can move on together. It doesn't help that we grew up in a time when people considered; 'there is no society...' an axiom.
Platinum - that opinion will be popular here (maybe not with Dailly Mail readers). If you look through this thread in detail you will see comments from myself encouraging people not to demonise or dehumanise people.
Platinum
19-02-2002, 18:42
I agree hatboy, and accept that here my opinion will be more readily accepted. Its just in my experience that pushing people into a 'group' outside what is 'normal' society, whether that is that of a dealer or an addict only furthers the problem. Rather than talking of 'screwing dealers', we should ask why dealers are willing to 'screw' us. However alien their exploitation seems, most human Behaviour is common. Is a trader in the city, any different in the traits he exhibits. Yet they are not demonised by mainstream society( tho I'm sure persons here might find fault).
Adam >> In country X it is legal to punch old women in the face. Now Im sorry, Ive had a good listen, but the voters of middle X will never stop punching old women. <<
Some things are intrinsically criminal. They are not hard to recognize, they are crimes against another. Laws that sanction the persecution of persons who have done nothing Intrinsically Criminal are not only not respectable, but the enforcement of them is of itself intrinsically criminal.
Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man’s appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded. - Abraham Lincoln (1809–65), U.S. president. Speech, 18 Dec. 1840, to Illinois House of Representatives.
Adam>> Drug dealers/policemen and politicians are all the same gang. All on the same side. The top firm... <<
Huh?
To those who disagree with reform, consider the following:
I guarantee you that all the gun-toting, murderous, ultraviolent, "drug-lord kingpins" who sell to and addict our children in order to generate huge, tax-free amounts of bribe money and profits to buy bigger and better homes, cars, lawyers, and weapons are on your side. They not only appreciate but also thrive and depend on your point of view for their very existence!
Tourn, are you suggesting that all drugs should be legalised then? I think that would bring chaos! The drug situation is bad enough as it is! I think that you can only safely legalise Cannabis and perhaps ecstacy.
unclekellan
19-02-2002, 19:08
could someone tell me how this story was leaked to the media - and whether we think that it is fine that posts onto this forum ended up spewed all over the press
perhaps the jaded jounalist who keeps using this thread to attack anyone with a flashing blue light could use some of his investigative powers and find out where the sources came for these stories.
after all, for all his (sometimes justified) cynicism of the police - he should remember that the media are not exactly top billing as friends of the workers or the anarcho-left activists
and people, whilst posting on any public forum is open to 're-interpretation' by outsiders - people should remember that for the moment at least - you can bet that journos and others will be paying a little more attention than usual to these boards in the hope of picking up some other tempting morsel to throw to the dogs of middle england
>> Tourn, are you suggesting that all drugs should be legalised then? I think that would bring chaos! <<
Why? Are you going to use drugs if they suddenly become legal?
>> The drug situation is bad enough as it is! <<
Attempting to keep addicting drugs away from those who are addicted is futile and dangerous. And not much can be said for law enforcement policies that foster criminal activity. Turning $3 worth of addicting drugs into $300 on the street does nothing but accomplish that.
johnwisehammer
19-02-2002, 19:23
"could someone tell me how this story was leaked to the media - and whether we think that it is fine that posts onto this forum ended up spewed all over the press"
I don't know where you get the idea this was "leaked" to the media - it's a public forum, innit? It's the nature of the beast - it's the equivalent of speaking to a public meeting - if you don't want something widely known, stick to private forms of communication (possibly something that might have crossed Paddick's mind over the last 24 hours). You don't get to pick and choose who listens.
"perhaps the jaded jounalist who keeps using this thread to attack anyone with a flashing blue light could use some of his investigative powers and find out where the sources came for these stories. "
I think that's mean, snide and uncalled for and quite unlike you (not least because not anyone gets or takes a flashing blue light - a fact that's crucial to all this).
>> "could someone tell me how this story was leaked to the media - and whether we think that it is fine that posts onto this forum ended up spewed all over the press" <<
As has been stated, this is a public forum. And for what it is worth, I am here because of what I read in the media.
For the record, the journalist who (ahem) 'leaked' the story was a Big Issue writer who had the decency to ring both me and Brian Paddick up first before running the story.
Material posted here is in the public domain and considering the popularity of the site it should come as no surprise that journalists are among its readers.
I have not been contributing to this thread not being a resident of the area, but am finding it very intresting as the issues apply to the contry as a whole.
Well done to the commander for posting here, it took a lot of balls.
Unfortunatly the first I heard of the program was of my Dad. Does the BBC keep any of its programs on the net that I could fing or does anyone know where I can find a transcript.
Cheers
Gilgongo
19-02-2002, 22:29
Originally posted by sonicdancer
START WINNING OPERATION TRIDENT - YOU ARE LOSING AND HENCE IT IS WORSE ON THE STREET
more money/police/ideas please
Hmm. That would translate into "more control please" I would think. One thing about control is that the more you have the more you need. More control is not the answer.
Have a look at www.stopthedrugwar.org (http://www.stopthedrugwar.org) for some interesting angles on what is really going on in Brixton - it's a global problem, not a local one.
Just Say Know.
Gilgongo
19-02-2002, 22:44
Originally posted by steelgate
Tourn, are you suggesting that all drugs should be legalised then?
Steelgate son, this isn't a particularly radical idea. Since the late '80s, the Dutch have decriminalised various narcotics currently classified in the UK under Classes A, B and C. The Dutch parliament is required to ratify this legislation annually I understand, and each year they have voted it back in because the policy of decriminalisation of what other countries refer to as "hard drugs" is popular and works.
I think the only worthwhile debate in the UK should be about how such a policy could be introduced, not whether it should introduced.
Just Say Know - 40 years of the Drug War and what have we got for all the fighting?
It's p1 and p4/5 in Wednesday's Sun. Not good. :(
Usual suspects quoted.
Time to fight back. :mad:
Gilgongo
19-02-2002, 22:54
Originally posted by Derek
You can't legalise crack or heroin though that is insane.
You really, really, need to understand that almost every word of your post is misinformed or just wrong. I'm not holding this against you - it's the majority view after all, but it just doesn't stand up to the empirical evidence of the last 40 years in this or almost any other country.
If we are to have a constructive debate about this then we need to start separating myths from facts much better than we are now. As it is, we can't even get off the ground at the moment with much of this.
For a summary of what I'm referring to, see www.stopthedrugwar.org (http://www.stopthedrugwar.org)
Just Say Know.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adam Porter
]Legali[Bse/decriminalise crack and smack. Or give up and let the dealers run the show.
If we legalise any drug, do you imagine that the incumbent Chancellor will miss the opportunity to steal a huge amount of revenue? Of course not. International organised criminals will simply undercut the legal outlets and continue in much the same way as now.
Hardly an ideal solution....
Rowland.
20-02-2002, 00:14
A quick intro: I've appeared here after hearing about the Brian Paddick's comments on `the news' - I've spent a couple of hours reading this forum and the one about the Brixton Movement for Justice March, and I'll admit to being impressed by pretty much everything I've read here - rational, informed, and genuinely interested debate. And I'm especially impressed by Brian Paddick - clearly a very brave man. But to the point...
There's been a fair bit of discussion about what might happen if heroin and/or crack were legalized. Derek's idea that it's insane to do either? Or Adam's idea that, because of the tax that would be put on these drugs, that illegal dealers would undercut the legal supplies?
Once upon a time, back in the days before aspirin, laudanum (opium dissolved in alcohol) was the most popular pain killer in Britain - it used to be legal, and it used to be very widely used (I've heard it was great for getting the kids to sleep - scary, eh?). It strikes me that anyone interested in legalizing heroin could do worse than to find out what it was like back then with laudanum. I don't know the details myself (well, I've read Coleridge's `Xanadu' and bits of de Quincy's `Autobiography of an English Opium Eater' (it's a bit heavy going in a stodgy Victorian way), but they hardly give you an insight into what it was like for the bulk of the population), but it strikes me that a fully informed debate ought to take past experiences into account, and I've never met anyone in this kind of debate referring to the British experience with widespread and legal opiate use. Remember: the stuff *used* to be legal, once upon a time, so why not again? What can we learn from the past in this case?
As for the idea that, if all recreational drugs were legalized, illegal drug dealers would undercut the (excessively taxed) legal drug supply. Well, the proof of the pudding is, as they say, in the eating. The *BIG* problem with most illegally bought drugs - as I'm sure you all know - is the matter of purity. When you buy street heroin, you *know* it's going to be cut with something or other, but what? Drugs like LSD and Ecstasy - man-made drugs - are often synthesized badly and end up being full of nasty poison.
This isn't far off the situation during alcohol prohibition way back when in the USA. When booze was illegal, the stuff was made illegally and sold illegally, but was often poisonous due to poor distillation and brewing. As soon as the prohibition on alcohol was lifted, the bootleggers had to find other kinds of trade to make their money because people stopped buying their known poor quality products - experience shows that legalizing a previous illegal drug, at least this once, put all the drug dealers out of the drug business almost straight away.
It strikes me that something similar would happen to illegal drug dealers in the here&now if currently illegal recreational drugs were legalized. There would, I think, be several mechanisms to ensure this: firstly, the demand for illegal drugs would drop off because a lot of people would be *very* glad to buy whatever they want legally - avoiding the risk of getting nicked (a sensible thing to do if you legalize recreational drugs would be to increase penalties for dealing drugs illegally, and also to introduce penalties for buying drugs illegally) and ensuring a guaranteed pure supply. Secondly, I can't help feeling that if all illegal recreational drugs were legalized, there would be a campaign mounted to ensure that the illegal dealers went out of business very quickly - it'd be the one time when increasing policing really would help: get rid of the current dealers, and who's going to replace them? The risks would be high and the potential gains would be low. And, well, illegal drug dealers are, when you get high up the chain, Not Nice People - wouldn't *you* like to see these vicious thugs out of business? There'd be a lot of support for that sort of thing, I'd reckon - I can't help feeling that a lot of people would be helping the police directly by shopping illegal dealers in a way which is rare now.
And another thing has just occurred to me: it's perfectly practical to grow drug-producing plants in the UK. Hemp is already widely grown indoors and it used to be widely grown in fields here, and opium poppies are just about viable (not that I can really see anyone bothering with them). How much more home-grown would there be if it were legal? That'd help keep the illegal suppliers' profits down, wouldn't it?
Yes, you can point to the illegal supply of tobacco in the UK - that works in part because the supply is high quality: you can buy dodgy Bensons off some bloke in the pub and they're exactly the same as you can buy in the corner shop, just cheaper. This only happens because it's easy for people to buy fags abroad without paying duty on them and then import them cheaply at low risk of being caught. The same applies to rip-off booze acquired the same way for the same reasons: people buy it because it's of known good quality. How much booze is available that's *made* illegally? Not a huge amount, and anyone who's ever tried any will know why: it's usually bloody awful stuff. The economics of the situation are that illegal non-distilled drinks just aren't worth trying to sell - the risks are too high for the likely gain, especially when you consider that anyone can brew their own beer or make their own wine using a kit from Boots. So the only worthwhile sort of illegal drink to sell is a distilled drink - and distilling is very carefully controlled in part because it's easy to get it wrong and make something that'll send people blind. And so hardly any is sold in the UK and hardly anyone drinks it.
Just some thoughts.
Like you Rowland, I came here by the same route I read the same thread and I came to the opposite view.
If you making it all legal (everything legal), and sell it through chemists then you put the dealers, importer and men with guns out of business. That is what we all want isn't it. However it leaves us with a problem of what to do with the users. Well if they will buy from you (ie the govt.) then you can make a condition of the sale that they tell you who they are and authenticate that in some way. Then you have got a lot more control than he underground arrangement we have now.
Your case example is of drugs from the era of Oscar Wilde, in our own the Amsterdam model shows that usage falls, and not only does it fall but with proper regulation you know who the users of the hard drugs are. You can track their behaviour and instantly they become I lot more controllable and much of the danger to us and ironically them is removed. Apart from anything else a significant drop in the price will drive down the amount of street crime and house hold burglaries making my life in Brixton better and that it what we all want.
This crime (the use of hard drugs) harms many people who make no choice to have anything to do with drugs. The users have the right to harm them selves if they want, and I think it is government policies that makes the users desire to harm themselves harm me as well.
wastedbloke
20-02-2002, 01:33
I was going to send Brian a PM but decided to put it in the public domain instead - obviously this influenced my wording. It’s lengthy but heartfelt:
Brian
I’m sorry to note the negative publicity being bestowed on you and your decision to contribute to these boards. You made a decision to “go public” about your job and, it seems, quite deliberately contributed as your professional self instead of as an anonymous (as most of us are) poster. I feel quite sure this was a calculated decision. It strikes me that all you were trying, in fact succeeding, to do was involve yourself in healthy debate with the people of Brixton.
I appreciate that Urban75 users are not wholly representative of the Brixton community but what you have done is engage in lively debate with many people who would otherwise think of the police as removed from their lives. People who have strong and, at times, radical beliefs about the law and the way in which it is interpreted. People who generally view the police as a threat instead of as providers of security - that is not to say that we break the law on a regular basis (through using drugs or any other activity) we simply know, from looking around us, that crime is rife on our streets and that current policing strategies aren’t working. It doesn’t take a genuis to appreciate that the best way to understand what’s happening is to engage with the people affected. To discuss with them how they feel.
Thankfully you seem to know this. I just hope those around you
are as level-headed when it comes to seeing through the current fog of media misrepresentation. Mind you - if they can't even discern the truth when presented with biased “facts” then they probably shouldn’t be in the police force!
Keep the faith
wasted
<edited to say - "Fuck - sometimes I sound like a pompous git!!!">
Global >> Unfortunatly the first I heard of the program was of my Dad. Does the BBC keep any of its programs on the net that I could fing or does anyone know where I can find a transcript. <<
I first read about the Commander on the BBC news this morning, my time. I just checked, there is now nothing about him on the BBC news page. It is now 7 PM here.
These things have away of coming back.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/default.stm
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