View Full Version : *Guns/Crack: The Commander - your opinion please?
Hi Brian - Can you tell me what Lambeth Police are doing about the destruction being wrought on the local community, especially in Brixton, by the use and dealing of crack and by gun-culture? I'd like to hear what you envisage for the future for the safety of the citizens of Brixton?
(PS PLEASE can other posters resist the temptatation to post on this thread until Mr Paddick has responded and a debate can then ensue).
Bump - thanks for NOT posting on here yet people. Where's The Commander got too? Briiiaaan!
Sorry for the delay - have had some serious personal issues to deal with.
What to do about crack and smack, especially in Brixton? My take - "don't damage my community". Translates into top priority = don't openly deal on the streets - it frightens people and raises their fear of crime - street deal and I'm after you. That means arrest, charge, court, long prison sentence (I hope).
Chaotic drug users - those so addicted to crack or smack that they cannot hold down a job, don't have enough money to feed the habit without robbing, breaking into people's homes or cars = damaging my community. These people are victims though. Victims of 'the system' that got them into the state they are in - victims of the drug dealers who encouraged them into taking the stuff maybe. We need more money for treatment, outreach work, support, so these people can come off the stuff and start living again. OK, if they rob and steal they'll get arested too, but hopefully they will get help too (we have drug workers at the police station, for example).
Not much time now, but I wil develop my ideas as we go along. Bottom line - screw the dealers, help the addicts.
Light blue touch-paper and retire!
Sounds like a good plan, how do you see it coming into action? How can Brixtonites (like us) help?
Yes, I want to screw some dealers please!!
sonicdancer
28-01-2002, 15:46
Commander maybe a zero tolerance attitude as adopted in New York by Geuliano may do the trick but this would need to be adopted elsewhere also otherwise the problems just get pushed somewhere else (as mentioned in previous threads) Cleaning up the dealers from the (numerous) favoured little drug dealing spots on the streets of Brixton WOULD alleviate residents concerns/fears but it would also eradicate the street life inherant.
I personally think that operation trident is failing, whatever you are doing it is not working, the guns situation is getting worse not better, a couple of deals up from the pavement outside Brixton Train Station people are getting shot, every week and as we can see in Tulse Hill recently innocent people are the victims...
The police need to work more closely with Government secret organistions who are experts in surveillance/covert operations so that the people who bring the drugs into Brixton 3/4 deals up from the street are apprehended, there aint gonna be many street dealers intimidating innocent people if you are cutting off the supply higher up.
START WINNING OPERATION TRIDENT - YOU ARE LOSING AND HENCE IT IS WORSE ON THE STREET
more money/police/ideas please
:rolleyes:
'The Commander', Panda etc, maybe you could start with the drug dealers on Atlantic Rd, they always congregate outside a certain mens clothes shop and sell to some of Brixtons most high profile drug victims.
If this is truly Brian P with whom we are communicating (although I very much doubt it) then maybe he can explain why the police have failed to do anything about this particular (Atlantic Rd) drug haven for years. Surely just driving past a few times would do the trick, or do you consider it a police no-go area?
And also could you explain what you mean about this 'don't openly deal on the streets' does this mean that you are happy for dealing to continue in crack houses, because it's less intimidating to the general public.
I am also a bit concerned about this statment 'but I will develop my ideas as we go along' does that mean you have no idea at the moment???
Sounds like you're a fake to me!!!
TinyCrendon
28-01-2002, 16:38
I agree w/Jo, not convinced by commander.
Streathamite
28-01-2002, 17:14
If this is truly Brian P with whom we are communicating (although I very much doubt it)
Get with the programme happyhappy etc. It is Brian Paddick-I received e-mail confirmation this morning. The Editor has also checked out the Bona fides.
And for god's sake lets stick with the bloke-he's the best news we've had in ages,and his nascent dialogue with U75 is a verypromising augury for the future
Only time will tell, I guess.
William of Walworth
28-01-2002, 17:55
While I'm about 90% convinced now that it is him, because of various previously sceptical U75 peeps being won over by direct email contact from him, I have to say that I can't remember Mike putting anything up to confirm it :confused:
drfranni
28-01-2002, 18:13
I hope that your personal "issues" are in the process of improving Mr C.
We need to get over whether this is definitely Mr Paddick or not. I beleive it is. I know people who've met you and speak well of you Brian, and, as I seldom do anything especially illegal and don't care if you know my identity I'm wondering whether you'd consent to me popping by the cop-shop and saying a brief (I know your busy) hello.
Aside from that, just wanted to say that I disagree with the Guilliani zero-tolerance approach because in the process of making an area safer it also oppresses street- and alternative culture. Since Brixton is the best Britain can do for a "downtown" New York type of lively street-
scene, it would be more than a shame to kill it off. And may not even be possible anyway.
Another thing: I think it's great that you say you don't have set ideas on how to tackle the crime problems in Brixton. That shows you are flexible. Often the most enlightened people are the one's who can say "I don't know". But of course you'll need to evolve an effective strategy.
Interested to hear more. And pleased that you not demonising anybody. There's always a bigger picture isn't there?
Using undercover cops would be a good idea as the dealers just move when uniformed patrols come along. There has been a great success in driving away dealers in the West End around Soho where a couple of years ago there was very open dealing in the streets. But the problem seems as bad as ever in south London. In the West End large billboards were used similar to those yellow witness appeal boards with anouncements about drug dealer arrests with slogans such drug dealer recently arrested and sentenced to three years imprisonment to scare away dealers.
sonicdancer
28-01-2002, 19:42
HB I have weighed up the zero-tolerance approach on one hand and the loss of street culture on the other, and dont really think you can have your cake and eat it...The only way that a stop is going to be put to muggings/burglaries/shootings/assaults/close friends and family dying (bad side effects of drugs) and keep the hustle and bustle of street life (which I like no; love..) then the way to go is relax cannabis so that street activity exists (this is happening) and at the same time target the bigger Brixton dealers shifting kilos of cocaine down the food chain. Operation Trident SHOULD be doing this. I dont know any skunk smokers carrying pieces or hasseling people at Brixton tube...I mentioned it would kill the street culture inherant and was just really thinking aloud, but am troubled on alternative solutions.
Wow! If anyone wants personal confirmation call the station and ask for an appointment. Say you are from Urban 75 and I will make sure one of you gets to see me (8649 2002). The real debate should happen here though, not one-to-one in my office.
Zero tolerance - sounds like 'police state' to me. In NY they had thousands of extra police, massive investment in improving the environment, special drugs courts - investment across the board not just hard policing. Lambeth - I don't have the cops and the Local Authority don't have the cash to improve things that much - the spirit is willing on their side but ...
So why don't we just sweep away the dealers? We have mounted every kind of police operation in Coldharbour Lane. We have had under-cover cops, uniform cops working off what the CCTV shows, everything. We have arrested about 50 street dealers in the past 12 months and within hours of arresting one, another takes their place. As long as there is the demand, as long as there are poor, desparate and gullible people willing to put their necks on the line for the bigger dealers further up the food chain, there will be street dealers.
Number one priority is the street dealers because they peddle death AND frighten the public. The bigger dealers are much harder to find and arrest and they have bigger dealers and so on until you get to the importers. All law enforcement agencies need to do their bit to stop this. My job with my people is to tackle the street dealers and (if we're lucky) the next ones up. After that its out of our league (but we can pass on the info.) The street delaers are like weeds - you cut them down and they keep growing back. You need to deprive them of their 'sunshine'. So we need to look at taking out the punters and getting them into treatment.
Anyone who deals to chaotic drug addicts are in my firing line. It's a contentious area but these are my priority targets. OK, I have said in the past that club dealers who supply 'recreational users' who do not resort to crime to by the stuff are at the bottom of my priority list but how many people do we know who started with a weekend habit and ended-up with a terminal habit?
We are working now with the Secret Services on this (I think) but this is beyond my remit. We also need to fight poverty and do more education in places like Jamaica where poor people are duped into carrying cocaine condoms in their stomachs. You won't get any of these millionaire vermin drug barons swallowing this stuff. Maybe a squirt of weed-killer on the right poppies would help?
These people are not easily frightened. A couple of police drive-pasts does not do it for them. We do patrol the centre and I have some of the bravest, fearless, unarmed cops who care enough to tackle gun-carrying drug dealers, who get attacked by the dealers and their cronies when they do, and still go back for more. These are boys and girls in uniform who put their lives on the line for us and they get deal grief for it.
We need to decide those issues where the peeps and the police have no argument - lets get the drug dealers, for example. We need to stand together in Coldharbour Lane, night after night, and put these people out of business. It's been done before to get rid of prostitutes but these are heavier. If the community and the police stand together we will win. It is when we fight each other that the bad guys win. Sure there are going to be things where you are going to disagree with the police. Lets decide what we can work together on.
I have asked the police union reps. (Police Federation) to come up with a list of things the cops think should not be tolerated in Lambeth and those things that we should be more relaxed about (we cannot enforce every single law all of the time). I have put cannabis (small amounts for personal use) in the second column. What would you put in each column? I have told the unions I will ask you what your big beefs are and then compare the two lists to see where we can agree on priorities.
I care passionately about people. I love Lambeth, Brixton in particular. I want people to have as much freedom as possible provided they don't damage my community. These drug dealers are ruining it for us. What can we do together?
:confused:
Impressive. I'll get back to you, as I'm sure others will, with a list of "I'm OK withs" and "I'm not OK withs". Shit - what a responsibility. :)
William of Walworth
29-01-2002, 06:32
Excellent post, Commander. Lingering doubts on who you are finally extinguished .. I'll be interested to read others' responses, particularly from those who live locally.
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: William of Walworth ]
drfranni
29-01-2002, 07:25
As HB says - "Shit- what a responsibility"
Personally and professionally I struggle with the tensions between the need for my profession (medicine) to provide an excellent service with limited resources and to be accountable - whilst at the same time recruiting and retaining staff who are increasingly demoralised. In addition, you are surrounded by statutary duties and reulations.
There is no easy way around this - the police need to be accountable for their actions and I have some understanding of how difficult it must be to motivate officers who are faced with personal danger and vitriolic criticism in the same day.
I have been the direct "victim" (hate that word) of crime 5 times in the past year and it struck me very forcibly that the thing which impressed me most was the attitude of the officers involved. I knew that there was not a snowball's chance in a nuclear reactor that they would "solve the crime" and I did not want them to waste their time trying. But a rapid, pleasant, helpful response was an enormous comfort to me. The most upsetting interaction was a black officer telling my son (who had just been mugged for the third time) that there was nothing the police could do because "Local school are 90% black kids and they are the ones doing the mugging" My son was upset because 1) He has been raised right 2) He has been a victim of Equal Opportunity mugging and had previously seen no relationship between race and his attacks.
I'm not impressed by people who say "I don't want the police to be "nice" I want them to catch criminals" Every person who has been assaulted, insulted, abused or ignored by a police officer becomes alienated and this attitude may remain lifelong with serious implications.
If I had to chose my priorities in Lambeth I would say "Make the streets safe(r)" In order to do that, our whole community must be recruited - the "zero tolerance" must come from everyone, without that the police have no chance at all. I think astonishing progress has been made by the police towards the "hearts and minds" of our community but much needs to be done and it must be a continuing process. If Lambeth people saw police as our champions and protectors - if police cars were cheered and police officers supported in everyday interactions - much crime would vanish. It doesn't happen because (amongst other things)people are mistrustful, have memories and don't believe in the potential gains. There are VERY good reasons why people feel this way but progress towards a safer community will be very slow unless these issues are solved.
In the meantime - good luck Mr C!
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: drfranni ]
HHJW: If this is truly Brian P with whom we are communicating
Ah, but I doubt that you are double "Happy" or from Wonderland on Button Moon, I have yet to see any evidence that you are called Jo either! In fact none of you really exist, you're all rampant AI programs let loose on the web: you're wintermute!
;)
TinyCrendon
29-01-2002, 07:56
.
Adam P:
Until you remove the financial profit its game over...dead punters, dead police, dead dealers, dead traffickers...
Quite. It's the ILLEGALITY of drugs that causes all the problems. I think all drugs should be decriminalised (not LEGALISED, which is slightly different). People will always take them. But if crack/smack are taken out of the hands of criminals, and addicts are dealt with by pharmacists/doctors etc. like they are in Holland, they will have far less chance of fucking up their own and other peoples' lives. It's the ILLEGALITY of drugs such as as crack and smack that have this enormous, far-reaching ripple effect of creating crime such as theft, robbery, knife/crime etc.
I'm not suggesting that we should be able to buy 'good quality' smack/crack in Tesco's alongside tobacco/drink, but we should take the whole situation away from the underground and disempower the evil bastards who peddle this stuff.
I think that only cannabis can realistically be legalised as it is relatively harmless. Most cannabis users don't resort to crime to feed their habit and cannabis is not a dangerous drug. You can't legalise crack or heroin though that is insane. The drug problem is bad enough as it is with those drugs already and the problem is not just caused by the dealers and traffickers, these are deadly highly addictive drugs that cause their users to commit vast amounts of crime in order to feed their habits! Legalising these drugs would allow the drug situation to spiral out of control completely. Organised crime would not simply leave the drugs trade if it was legalised either they have billions in profits at stake.
Thanks for that Commander, it seems that you do have a clear agenda on this issue and your heart is also in the right place. I look forward to hearing how some of your ideas develop and are translated into positive action on the streets.
Jo :)
TinyCrendon
29-01-2002, 10:25
.
William of Walworth
29-01-2002, 10:39
I am inclined to agree with steelgate here, to an extent anyway :confused:
I take Adam's point about what we're up against internationally. But as I and one or two others said in the Crack thread on the drugs board, I would like to hear an argument SPECIFIC TO CRACK that would persuade me that decriminalising it will reduce the social harm and surrounding crime, both far in excess now than that relating to any other (illegal) drug. I would need to be convinced they wouldn't continue or get worse.
Anyway, in the real world, it's not going to happen .. crack will be the very last one to get decriminalised.
So the scenario of increased tolerance (at least de facto) of cannabis but continued attempts to target the crack trade will I imagine be the main focus for this debate.
Plus other issues such as those Happy Jo raised ... how to reduce past alienation between the Police and the locals.
William of Walworth
29-01-2002, 10:45
When you give smack to people via a doctor they dont contuinue burgling/prostituting themselves because they dont need to, as has been seen with many experiments. Same with rocks...
Same with rocks as with heroin??? No expert me but the craving is so much more frequent and intense and psychotic and outwardly directed , often in dangerous ways???
I'm not convinced.. the evidence would be interesting.
I do agree with medically prescribed heroin for addicts but I also find it hard to cross that Rubicon of following the same policy with crack. Even people with liberal attitudes towards drugs, and more to the point Police and policy makers, would need more convincing I suspect.
Sorry .. this is a broader debate and really one for the drugs board, where it's already been raised, because as I said crack is NOT going to be decriminalised in the forseeable, so the Commander and us will be debating a scenario closer to the status quo.
Personally I would like to see a larger split between weed and harder drugs - not an original stance I know.
Therefore the purveyors of weed need to be separated from the sellers of other stuff.
Here is my initial thought:
1) Increased patrols & hassle of dealers in the "hot spots" of Coldharbour lane, Atlantic & Railton & the BR station - to drive them out.
2) an (obviously off the record) tacit agreement with the dealers that they can sell their smack and crack in a place that is slightly more cut off from the centre of town (St Mathews peace garden? / a part of Clapham common?). This would create space between them and the general population and would mean the users etc would move with them. (I have seen the way that the street walkers in Brixton tend to move to be close to their dealers). It would also avoid the problem that if you take one dealer out, another springs up to take his place and there would be less chance of passers by being hit by random gunfire.
3) Let small time weed dealing continue from those low profile retail outlets that I am sure the Commander is fully aware of. this gets the "casual" smoker away from dealers in other stuff.
I am sure that the above is riddled with problems (think what would happen to house prices in Clapham if there was large scale dealing on the common LOL :eek: ). but is there any sense at all in what I say?
william, when someone burgles you,leaves you paranoid in your own home who cares if it's for heroin or for for crack
:confused:
i see what you're saying about violence but both are still causing crime, i can't see how you can see an argument for heroin on prescription but not crack - surely violence is in fact worse than the loss of property and that's ignoring the psychological damage burglary can do
(sorry to hijack this thread somewhat, maybe take it to the crack scumbag drug thread instead)
drfranni
29-01-2002, 11:19
I agree that being burgled is very upsetting but:
1) I have no doubt I was burgled "casually" because I live so close to crack dealing - we are probably regarded as their cash machines
2) I would be content to live with the risk of burglary if I thought I could walk home from Brixton Centre Ville after an evening out without fear and that my children could come home from school or go to the corner shop without being attacked.
At the weekend, I sent my son to buy some cheese - he didn't return after 10 minutes, I RAN to the shop - no sign of him - I started to drive around, in a blind panic - only to discover that he had seen some dodgy looking peeps and had walked to another shop, about a mile away, to avoid them.
This is a sad way to live
TinyCrendon
29-01-2002, 11:19
.
This is where I am in danger of getting into real hot water! As a police officer I have to say that legalisation/decriminalisation is a matter for politicians not police officers. Not being cynical but politicians always have this dilemma: do the right thing but if it's not popular and you lose votes, you lose power and then you cannot do anything. Do the popular thing, win votes and keep power and you could end up doing the wrong thing because there are more votes in it. Does that mean politicians make decisions on the basis of how many votes it will win/lose them or on the basis that it is clearly the right thing to do (or only when the two coincide)? Change in the law on anything except cannabis - no chance. Is it right to decriminalise, strictly control, licence, ... maybe some things.
There has been no treatment for cociane/crack addiction until now but I got an e-mail today about a tablet dervied from cocaine that has been developed that might provide a safer alternative to crack. If this is the case, then maybe strictly controlled treatment with heroin and this new stuff might be something worth doing. Whatever we think, I think the whole thing about decriminalisation fails the 'number of votes' test and is likely to fo some years yet! Got to keep pushing on those boundaries!
William of Walworth
29-01-2002, 11:38
I'll let others respond to the Commander, but I agree with bang .. part of this debate should be shifted back to the drugs forum.
I'm pro total decriminalisation, as I feel that it would be the only effective way for controlling drug supply and demand, and therefore allowing access to the users. especially if supply is given at below street prices, but I also understand that any political party that tried to push this through in one stage wouldn't last the next election and the law would be repealled immediately.
I am also sure that total decriminalisation would lead to "the wrong message" being passed down to the general public who, as a rule, want to get off their tits as much as possible without fear of social stigma.
An education package needs to be in place that accurately informs people about the "highs" and "lows" of drug use (both legal and illegal) and deals with the perils of addiction. Once this is in place for a few years, then can we move towards total decriminalisation.
Didn't Blunkett make statements about Heroin becoming available through GPs again? And when does Cannabis become a Class C drug?
drfranni
29-01-2002, 11:49
Edited because should be in drug forum -if anywhere, which I doubt
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: drfranni ]
TinyCrendon
29-01-2002, 12:02
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drfranni
29-01-2002, 12:07
You want a police force that MAKES the laws??? You want a police force that is 100% in favour of all current laws and all government policies???????
I think there is a name for places like that ...lemme think..... oh yes, fascist/communist/name-an-ist dictatorships
Long live an independant, namby pamby, liberal police force
johnwisehammer
29-01-2002, 12:07
Although I agree with a lot of what Adam and other posters have said, I'm tempted to think that perhaps we're not exploiting The Commandant's presence here in the best way by making generally-applicable statements, even if they're true. Maybe we ought to tighten in on very focussed Lambeth issues? But on the other hand, isn't this what it's all about?
:confused:
corporate whore
29-01-2002, 12:31
I'm in with JohnW here - The Commander may wield a lot of power, but the legalisation of hard drugs on a grand scale is not one of them - can we keep this discussion on the drugs board and talk about local issues?
The idea for a 'designated dealing zone' is pretty good, like Hamburg's street of whores..
More later
TinyCrendon
29-01-2002, 12:36
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drfranni
29-01-2002, 12:50
"Why be so irresonsible to become a police officer undertaking laws over which you have no control ?" That was the quote which make me think - wrongly it would seem - that you felt that police officers should have control over the law
I'm sorry that you consider me patronising - and have no idea why you want to make this a "personal" issue "Hope you dont touch any of that addictive junk you deal (see methadone)..." is pretty offensive by any standard
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: drfranni ]
William of Walworth
29-01-2002, 13:06
Adam that was REALLY offensive ... :mad:
I agree with JWH ... let's stick to local issues ... the rest can and should go to the drugs forum.
Since I started this, and like several here, I live in the middle of Brixton, I'd like to put my foot down abit on this thread.
This is about Lambeth, and specifically Brixton.
Please can we keep to the subject of drug and gun crime and the local area. If you want to talk more generally please start another thread on the drugs board.
This is an all to rare opportunity for Brixton people to talk directly to a high-ranking Police Officer - the Chief Commander for Lambeth.
Adam P (and others), I hope you can respect this by taking general anger and suspicion of the Police to another thread.
I am not naive about the Police, but we will be wasting the Commander's presence here if we go on the attack. And as he has said, much of this argument is about politics, not local policing.
So let's keep focused on this. Thankyou.
Commander, it hasn't come up yet much. But how are you getting on with getting more ethnic minority officers at Brixton? And how are you getting on with removing racist officers, educating those inexperienced with dealing with the panoply of people they'll meet in Brixton and generally building trust across the local community? There are still incidents of racist policing in Brixton. I don't even think they are that rare sadly. (Accepting that there are some very decent Police too).
I am aware of the initiative whereby you've got volunteer local black men coming in to the Police station and "telling it like it is". (A couple of friends are doing this) How's that going?
The council seem to be neglecting provision for youth/teenagers in the area. (For instance the neglect of Dexter Square). This contributes to youngsters going off the rails and becoming criminals IMO (of course there are other factors). What can the Police do with Lambeth Council to encourage the council to provide youth facilities?
By the way, which gay clubs do you go to? (Oh OK, you needn't answer that one).
;)
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: hatboy ]
drfranni
29-01-2002, 13:42
Hatboy - doesn't it all seem like a vicious circle? Even if Lambeth provided some services my children would like to use, they would be too frightened to walk there, so the services are underused, so the council doesn't support them OR they are used only by people who have the time to drive the children there and stay with them (ie not single working parents) Most of the street crime near me seems to be perpetrated (?spelling) by children and so many of us keep our children "safe" by confining them to a room, a telly and computer games. If our streets were full of strong, confident children, these nasty little thugs wouldn't have a chance - and the crack dealers might think twice too.
lol! :) (erk! I meant 'lol' at Hatboy)
Yes, its the groups of kids roaming the streets that are the scary ones. Plus the dealers. Though it's those who carry knives and guns who are the worst. What in God's name can be done about gun possession? No-one can argue with a gun. That recent incident where two men in a scuffle fired a shot and the bullet went into a passing woman's stomach is an example. It could've been any of us walking down Tulse Hill at 8.30pm that Sunday. My housemates were popping in and out of the shop exactly where it happened. People just don't feel safe anymore.
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: han ]
wildwildlifer
29-01-2002, 16:59
I quote the Commander " we have arrested 50 street dealers in the last 12mths". So don't expect us to be overwhelmed at less than 1 street dealer a week being hauled in throughout Lambeth. With such a low arrest rate no wonder there are a flood of volunteers to take their place. Its only by upping the arrest rate that the flow of new dealer recruits will be staunched.
By the way I accept the case for legalisation of all drugs as the only long-term answer. The human need to get off one's face now and then is as old as mankind and prohibition never worked.Everyone should be given drug credit cards so habits can be monitored and intervened in a non-criminalistic setting.
Spraying weedkiller over 3rd World countries as Monsanto/Novartis/Bush are doing in Colombia on a huge scale kills zillions of hard-pressed wildlife whilst not addressing the basic problem of demand. Just wait till the butterflies get organised! :eek:
johnwisehammer
29-01-2002, 17:51
Commander - these are questions which are pressing for some boroughs at the moment but they may be non-issues in the case of Lambeth.
- how many (if any) of your officers are being diverted to "anti-terrorism" duties outside Lambeth?
- how is recruitment and retention of female officers (at all ranks) doing?
Thanks.
<deleted: didn't realise the thread had two pages> :rolleyes:
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Naked Vole Primpa ]
Johnny Canuck
29-01-2002, 18:33
Commander, I'm not a 'local', but my city, Vancouver, B.C., has a similar problem with street dealing of crack.
An area of our city resembles a combat zone, with Central American teenagers dealing to a population you describe as 'chaotic drug users'.
The dealers deal openly; there is no mistaking what they are up to.
To date, the local police have conducted two 'sweeps', wherein they arrest 50 - 100 people on drugs and immigration charges.
Like London, they are back on the streets in awhile, or someone new takes their place.
Still, I can't help but feel that if the police made routine busts, on a daily or weekly basis, the hassle would cause the dealers to move on. It appears that the 'sweeps' occur more for media and political points, as opposed to real enforcement.
It's true that busting the dealers won't stop them, so long as there is a demand.
However, shouldn't the effort be made?
The police routinely stop speeding drivers, even though there is no hope of eradicating that aspect of human behaviour. But the enforcement helps to keep it within bounds.
Wouldn't routine enforcement against street dealers have the same effect?
I note that one of the suburban cities, New Westminster, had a serious problem with dealers operating at the subway stations.
The police there began stopping and arresting these dealers on sight; they soon moved on. Yes, they moved to a different area within the larger metropolitan area, but that is one where the police enforcement isn't so certain.
Would these tactics not work for you in your jurisdiction?
Wow, coming as a simple westcountry boi this thread is something of a turnip for the books, wish we had intelligent and articulate coppers in Brissol ;)
AP - can't you get off your soap box and be practical for a moment?
Short of totally re-ordering the state would you rather have somone with the views and intentions The Commander has expressed or some 'zero tolerance' (the self-evident idiocy of that phrase is hilarious) fuckwit in charge?
To get clichéd for a moment, this level of interaction is the revolution, the net's an enabler of all that great stuff you want to see, don't start pissing all over people trying something new before you've given them a chance.
Good luck to you all, I just hope you can sort some of this mess out cos it's getting pretty fucked up everywhere.
FridgeMagnet
29-01-2002, 19:42
I have asked the police union reps. (Police Federation) to come up with a list of things the cops think should not be tolerated in Lambeth and those things that we should be more relaxed about (we cannot enforce every single law all of the time). I have put cannabis (small amounts for personal use) in the second column. What would you put in each column? I have told the unions I will ask you what your big beefs are and then compare the two lists to see where we can agree on priorities.
I think this is an excellent question. Maybe we could start a whole new thread on it?
(Incidentally, I mailed a link to this thread to my stepmother, who's spoken to Brian Paddick in the past. She says The Commander definitely sounds like him... but she was surprised that the press hadn't gotten hold of it and caused a fuss.)
when you appear again, hope you can address my points Commander?
twisted nerve
29-01-2002, 22:06
Why be so irresonsible to become a police officer undertaking laws over which you have no control ?
There is a strong argument for keeping the separation of powers within our legal system. The last thing we need is e.g. politicians deciding on sentencing, etc. Didn't Michael Howard try, and (rightly) fail to do this?
web page (http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/web/PHWebContent.nsf/1cb4957331f940abca2568170016396e/31aeed1097592aa0ca25693000316ab1?OpenDocument)
Sorry, but there is another thread for ancilliary topics. :) Thanks.
twisted nerve
29-01-2002, 22:40
That's the problem with Usenet, though.
<edited to add: I forgot this isn't Usenet, lol.>
[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: twisted nerve ]
did anyone see trading races last night?
showed the white guy painted black walking down coldharbour lane, you could have played spot the dealer it was so blatant even on television... :rolleyes:
Hatboy I can sort of answer a bit of your question. A certain Fubu wearer you know has been going regularly to meetings in Peckham that the police have organised, basically they invite local ethnic people to come along and talk openly and blatently about any issues concerning race etc. that they have with the Police, lunch and £15 thrown in. I think this sort of initiative is to be appauded its just a shame that it wasn't advertised better as Mr Fubu was quite often the only one there!
He is in fact at Hendon today taking part in racial training to new recruits from all around the country some of whom have never really had to deal with any one from other cultures, but who could well be placed in a London borough.
It seems quite a small but positive step to helping eradicate racism from the force
:confused: :)
Hi
My 2cents on how to clean up drug crime in Brixton and I hope the Commander is listening.
Increase the holding Cells at Gatwick Airport..
Customs are allowing large numbers of suspected “Swallower’s” through due to not having enough resource to hold them for the eventual movement. My understanding is that there are only 3-7 holding cells at Gatwick.
Traffickers are aware of this limit and are filling flights with “Swallower’s” in the certainty that some will
get through.
Nic
TinyCrendon
30-01-2002, 13:25
[ I'll take back the methadone insult. (Its sick that docs hand it out tho) But not the patronising bit. If you dont want a reaction argue on the points I make not the ones I dont make. ]
The drug trade is NOT fuelled by small time no-marks flying in from JA with half a ki in their stomachs. This is street nothingness. An irrelevancy.
The real players bring in tonnage. Tonnes of gear. They are, in the main, organised criminals of the blue chip variety, governments and senior business people (see the arrest for example of the Pakistani shipping magnate with 12 tonnes of weed and smack on his barge in Copenhagen in 1999)
You can go on nicking the poor and weak for ever and you will NEVER stop drugs.
The drug trade is the third biggest on the planet and it ENDS UP IN BANKS. Not under someones bed in cash. It is a neccesity for the econmies of many countries.
This sort of naivety about the drug trade, the reason it is criminalised in the first place, and who benefits from the trade (mainly banks) is just plain out of date.
Drugs are polictical. They are the worlds second cuirrency behind the dollar with TRILLIONS of $$$ activity all over the word.
Its the biggest trade in Mexico outstripping the next three combined, it is 55% of Bolivia's GDP, in 1984 the UN estimated that drug money was BANKED at the rate of $2m AN HOUR, one of the biggest UK city banks is a drug bank, one of the biggest banks in the Americas is a drug bank run by a man who is the biggest drug profiteer in the world (and who met with Fox and Clinton after Fox became pres of mexico).
Why, for example, did Mike Grasso, head of the bank of New York fly into FARC land in order to meet Raul Reyes. So FARC - the peeps whop have legalised coca in Colombia -would bank with them. They refused.
Or one can fritter around at the edges going "ooh arent poor crack users scum. Lets make weed a class C."
You legalise everything or you give up.
The drug trade is NOT fuelled by small time no-marks flying in from JA with half a ki in their stomachs. This is street nothingness. An irrelevancy.
Well Is it down Brixton way, stuffing represents a big source of coke to the "Jamaican" dealers...
I doubt they would go to the bother to bring in coke in this way if they had access to people with tons available. They probably don't have this access as the reputation for random irational violence precedes them.
TinyCrendon
30-01-2002, 14:23
OK, stuufing/mules account for some drugs, of course. But they are not the big carriers. If you want to stop drugs in JA you go to politicans and the armed services who are the biggest drug runners. Instead efforts are focussed on the "street level" dealer, most often poor fucked up dudes (and yes they may well be wankers too) who are effectively chancing it.
See how many of those type of importers end up jail. Plenty. See how many of the proper players/profiteers end up in jail. Very rare.
Im sure you all know these sites/journalists but check the work of Gary Webb, Cele Castillo, Al Giordiano (www.narconews.com) for the reality of the trade.
I guess thats why i get worked up by peeps like The Kommondant who are so `in the way` its untrue...otherwise the combination of drug-war advocates, politicans and police are going to mean so many more dead, jailed, fucked up and bereaved individuals...
As far as I know the main (not some)transfer of Cocaine from JA to Brixton is via mules. Given the choice of 1000 mules, a tenth of which are not going to get through and one large shipment with the chance of loosing everything, I know the method I would choose?
I standby my comments that improvements in the holding facilities will cut down on the amount of Cocaine to Crack in Brixton. This will not stop the drug trade but will stem the current loop-whole and once realised hopefully stop the extortion/jailing of recruited Jamaicans as mules.
nic - i hear what you're saying about more holding cells - but do you think that's a permanent solution?
No one has offered a possible solution to this problem apart from legalisation yet
[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: bang ]
johnwisehammer
30-01-2002, 15:19
No offence (and to bring the topic off-topic even more) but that holding cells thing sounds suspiciously like something that gets leaked by the POA and PolConfed just before wage negotiations come up. (Fact: HMCE officers get paid extra to watch people shit in airports).
Bang
Not a permanent solution, but the Custom and Excise staff have been requesting more holding cells for this specific problem for a long period of time. I would go far as saying that the high number of known mules getting through is what’s escalating Brixton crack/violence problem. More holding cells will not stop Brixton’s problems, but from what I’m hearing it’s a massive loop hole which has been too long in addressing.
Agree with your point made about legalisation but I feel the polictical impact is just to sensible for all the worlds goverments to realise at once. Remember listening to old Douglas rambling on about this in the film 'Traffic'
nic
Johnny Canuck
30-01-2002, 15:52
Adam, you talk sense.
Does anyone have any dollar figures for the size of the coke business in London per year? My guess is, it's in the billions.
How many mules must you stuff to bring in a billion dollars' worth of coke?
No doubt it happens, but to get that kind of tonnage, you must send it through in ship containers, etc, just like they do here.
There's too much money to be made from drugs, to risk any of it being flushed down the toilet.
For fuck's sake start some other threads! Thanks so much for respecting my wishes to stay on topic guys!! :rolleyes: :(
I respectfully request that people who don't live in or know Brixton could leave this alone abit. PLEASE.
As I used to live in Brixton and I still often socialise there, on behalf of Hatboy, I shall bring the thread back to local issues.
People in Brixton street deal because they live in poverty and dealing is an effective way of making a living, and as they are otherwise criminalised at a very early age they have little to lose anyway.
People get addicted to smack and crack because it is one of very few escapes from otherwise stinking, miserable lives.
Peasants in South America and Asia produce narcotics because in a harsh international marketplace, it is the only effective way of using their land to support their families. (Oh dear, I seem to have moved out of Brixton).
Meanwhile, it doesn't take rocket science to work out that the drug trade in Brixton or elsewhere is not driven by Jamaican single mothers opting for the pre-flight dinner service, but by big business and banks, and by implication politicians and the worlds security and police forces that support them. (Oh no, I've moved even further out of Brixton. But wait, I shall return there)
Brixton is not an island. The same forces that fuck up the lives of people in Brixton, are the same forces that squeeze the breath out of the world's peasants. Brixton doesn't have a crime problem, it has a socio-economic problem, just like the rest of the world.
Commander Paddick - you are obviously well meaning, and believe your role as a policeman restricts your attention to Lambeth. Indeed, gentrification ie. cleaning up the streets, may make some residents lives more bearable, improve your statistics, promotion perhaps, but it will just move the problem elsewhere. Your role as a human being, however, compels you to see the bigger picture. Many people who read and post on these boards are politically active both in local, Brixton issues, and in wider international issues. In truth they are essentially
different versions of the same thing. If you really want to make a difference then can I suggest that as a human being, you join the side of the weak and meak. And that as a policeman, you stop kicking the shit out of us on demos, and stop supporting the rich, the powerful, and the power structure, that ulimately brings misery onto the streets of Brixton.
And make sure you pull an honest pint at the weekend whilst your wife is out horseriding!!
;)
(Long story)
TinyCrendon
31-01-2002, 10:40
Nice one slowdog.
Hatboy - I dont think it went off topic quite as much as you feared. Surely (and in a political sense too) this is a good example of `thinking locally acting globally`. Or at least `thinking locally and globally`dont you...er...think.
When one gets an (alleged) opportunity to `talk` face to face with someone who says he is the Kommondant, its an opportunity however fleeting to put down the view that international drug policy DIRECTLY affects brixton, lambeth and of course every area of the UK. Dont you think so ?
Thomas A - A couple of years ago there was some debate in the media about the size of the UK drug market and its contribution to GDP/GNP. (Although it was a pretty flippant media debate like we get in the UK). I honestly didnt see any truly reliable figures though peolpe settled on a figure of around £8-10bn p/a as my memory serves me.
One of the strongest arguments for decriminalisation is the economic argument. If, under present circumstances, the Uk somehow eliminated all illegal drugs it would therefore cost the economy something in that region, £8-10bn per year. Which would be an economic disaster for the UK. Now imagine you are in Bolivia and its 55% of GDP. It is UNREMOVABLE BY ANYONE.
To simplify it somewhat the `War On Drugs` is that right wing people want control of the drug trade. (Colombia. Afghanistan, Burma, The Americas in general) Control it, profit from it and criminalise the population at the same time. Perfect. And that is what happens.
Streathamite
31-01-2002, 11:19
I'm OK with: Cannabis, Ecstasy
NOT OK with: Heroin, Crack, Ketamine.
Cocaine, it strikes me, is problematical. On the basis that many cocaine users are precisely those casual Weekend users who do not constitute a threat to public safety or good order (this seems to me to be the fault-line between "OK with" and "not OK with" ) - Crack users and dealers
are very much a menace, and VERY bad news for Brixton's long-suffering, public. Squaring this circle will help greatly.
TinyCrendon
31-01-2002, 13:16
Red Jezza - so you want to keep the coke/heroin situation the same then. you think its working like this ? has locking up millions (worldwide) kept the drugs off your streets?
What do you think should be done to change the situ for the better ?
Streathamite
31-01-2002, 13:31
Check PMs Adam, please
Enjoyed your post Slowdog.
Where the hell is The Commander? Do you think he's been advised not too continue this. It wouldn't surprise me.
Slowdog - what happened to you? You don't answer my PM's and despite saying how much you liked Brixton, you seem to have left shortly after moving here. What happened? Haven't seen you anywhere.
TinyCrendon
31-01-2002, 13:50
`The Commander` doesnt have any answers, wont contemplate thinking for himself, blames other people (politicians/the public) for not wanting change but at the same time adheres strictly to what they tell him to do and refuses to debate ("ooh i'm in hot water"). Just in a very nice liberal way.
Thats what liberals do, its why OB appoint them so its all sounds good and the same shit continues. Just Blairite policing. If the Commander were able to think for himself he wouldnt adhere to the gang structure he is in. Dont be suckered by him (assuming he is who he says he is which im afraid i still doubt - but we'll try and debate him as if he is).
Streathamite
31-01-2002, 17:52
1) Adam - The Commander is who he says he is. I have the proof in my inbox.
2) I take your points as regards fence-sitting "liberal" offricialdom (at least you know where you are with a 100% pure bastard in uniform!) - but he's gone further than any copper (or politician-in-government) I can think of in bringing something approaching a hint of realism and common sense to the absurdity/nightmare of drugs legislation/policing. No, it's notmuch. but it's something, and more than I've seen before, or elsewhere (to repeat myself)....
3you think its working like this ? has locking up millions (worldwide) kept the drugs off your streets?
No it isn't working-but legalisation, certainly of Heroin, possibly of coke, may well be even more disastrous. I don't see how you can legalise consumption, without legalising purchase, and therefore sale, and therefore supply, and therefore distribution, and therefore importation. And who would you grant such licence to? Big Business? (M & S-branded heroin - now with free needle! no thanks). The State? Even on a non-profit basis, no government and no state could be trusted with such a power-especially not on a monopoly basis.
The Medical Profession? what starts in the hands of compassionate, ethical physicians would end up in those of NHS Bureaucrats - another nightmare scenario
Mr Corner Shop? within 6 weeks not one of them could afford their newly-stratospheric insurance premiums!
So No, Adam, It's not working. But yes, for now keep it this way as the least awful alternative, whilst trying whatever can be done to shift the emphasis to healthcare, cure, prevention etc.
Very, very imperfect approach,I know - just can't see any other as that much better.
Red Jezza - your argument appears to be thus. Don't legalise heroin because it would be disastrous and worse than the present situation. So how exactly would it (could it) be worse?
Is it just because, as you imply, that we can't work out how it would be traded? That seems to me a poor argument. Some people might even call that a tautology ie. not an argument at all. Adam, on the other hand, has made a very good argument. If you disagree with him, then you have to challenge the assumptions and reasoning in his argument, and not just make a counter-statement, sit back, and say there thats settled. Some people might call that reactionary. ;)
TinyCrendon
01-02-2002, 09:20
Red Jezza - Cheers for the reply. Cant say I agree w/you though. I think keeping things the same is simply a recipie for an American-type situation very soon. Lots of people in jail, lots of crack on the streets, lots of death. But I'm sorry to say I think that is EXACTLY what powerful people want. Maybe not in the forefront of their minds but in the notion that if someone is a drug addict and/or difficult to deal with or a street dealer then prison is the traditional option.
It seems pretty perverse that `treatment` and so on starts mainly AFTER addiction and sometimes, though not often, in jail. A bit late then.
The methods of distribution are indeed the crux of the matter. Ive been on the radio with far better informed dudes than myself from Release (and other lot whose name Ive rudely forgot) and they taught me a lot.
Firstly each drug has to be taken individually.
You wouldnt lump treatment for alcohol and tobacco into one basket for example, no alcohol patches etc etc.
So you work on the best method of treatment/prevention/distribution method per drug. Heroin would come through doctors (see various succesful cases of prescribed smack, notably in Glasgow) for example. Even though popular opinion says people cant survive and have lives whilst using heroin it aint true, it has to be measured (doseage), it has to be given free to stop them burgling/prostituting etc.
Marijuana laws - well, that argument is done IMO.
Ecstasy - testing, education. Or go on letting millions of kids take amateur chemicals every weekend. Distribution, well, I would bite the bullet here and have special regulated shops (a la alcohol in Sweden), others say str8 government outlets (fantasy IMO) others say through doctors. I think in these cases its about amount per week/month etc. So it would be impossible to buy 50,000 Es over the counter for example.
Cocaine - in many ways crack (through doctors a la smack) is easier than powder cocaine. The `recreational` majority who dont develop serious problems using powder are difficult to fathom in terms of distrib. The stuff was legal and available from Chemists remember up to the 1940s (check that date it may have been later), my Grandad for example was a big fan of the tonics that had smack and cocaine in (no wonder). Of course he despised all drug users. I would venture the E shop option above but it is a hard one (see note at bottom of page).
To me though the hardest drug to work with is one hardly mentioned at all: LSD. So unpredictable in its effects yet so strong. Unaddictive (yes we all know `casualties` but it aint the same) yet heavily hallucinogenic. Coulod people go and buy 50 tabs, what if they took em all, is it pesonal responsibility? Its more that most drugs have a SIMILAR effect on DIFFERENT peeps, wheras LSD has DIFFERENT effects on the SAME peeps from one tab 2 another (within reason etc etc).
But look RJ etc Im a journo not a drug distrib expert, I suggest you take it further and look at experts (such as Realease) who can take the distribution argument a little further and offer you some more ideas to inject...er...chew on....
ciao
To all/The Kommondant: check these sites for the realities of the drug `war`, off the top of my head:
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/os99001.pdf - if you want to see about certain banks etc...
www.copvcia.com
www.narconews.com
http://www.guerrillanews.com/crack/links.html
Red Jezza - Prohibition isn't working here in Brixton or elsewhere. People are only just starting to have a real debate about what we should replace it with. And no we don't want transnationals peddling dope IMO.
Some of the key thinking within the UK is now happening in connection with something called the Angel Declaration - see the following site:
http://www.angeldeclaration.com/declaration.htm
Some of the solutions are obvious and probably not so controversial (e.g. weed - probably treat it much like alcohol - availability thru off licenses and homegrown) but for other substances notably heroin/crack there is more need for debate. Given that people use crack in Brixton and will continue to do so regardless of Brian's best efforts what would we replace the existing gun-infested system with? What could a post-prohibition system of crack availability look like in Brixton? Could we propose something that would be better than what we've got?
I know this is general drugs debate territory but also believe some of the key thinking has to come bottom up from places where people live with this stuff. Think global...
BTW much respect to Brian for being here.
Dear Nelly
Thank you for your message
I was one of the Author's of the Angel Declaration!
It was initiated by an ex-lawyer businessman, who gathered a group of full-on reformers together, and that was the result. It was very tough for me as an ex-addict, widowed by AIDS to not push for a bigger section on Harm Reduction - treatment, AIDS prevetnion etc, but I think my peers managed to convince me that the section on it was big enough..
Are you involved in any of the growing reform initiatives? If you aren't but want to be, please let me know. I can sure find you a man who will(!) - if u catch my drift!
Great to know you are out there
Till next time
Andria
Dear Nelly,
I see you were up at 8.32 am working - well you must be commited; you should definitely join one of our industrious gangs of reformers, if at all possible.
You say something in response to Red Jezza about not wanting IMO 'peddling drugs.' Mmh, first of all, I'm not convinced they are not already involved with it (but have no proof so better shut up)
But much more importantly, it is very likely that when the drug laws do change the economic beneficiaries will be the multi-nationals and so on. It is inevitable. Yes, this is hard to accept, for ALL socialist reformers.
However, we could - if motivated - make that less a home-goal for them by beginning now to plan small-cooperatives of medical marijuana folk and so on. This is already happening, though some police are wasting our precious taxes arresting these guys, I suspect that this whole thing will continue to progress. Indeed, many feel that it might be just a case of capitulation of the state, as it's too difficult for them to drop their pride and say this law is daft!
Personally, I'm open. I've seen extraordinary acts of goodness, humility, and pragmatic compassion (as well as inane and unspeakable cruelty) so I really cannot predict
I only know we need to keep on keeping on, and anger must be only a part of the energy that fules us: when we speak to people who clearly do not know any better, we have to reach into their minds and hearts and understand their fears and what their resistance to these changes is about.
Drugs-demonisation/brain-washing has been happening for eons, and is deeply ingrained in ALL of our psyches. It's a long road but...
I can feel a song coming on
One more thing about Brixton: does this sound very naive??Should a few of us 'streety activists' go down and give the influx - if that is at all true - of NEW crack dealers - a polite chat about not f-ing it up for the rest of us; "if it works in Brixton, it could be done throughout the country, and so on."??
DO ANSWER THIS ONE. I ain't doing it on my own anyway
And Alan J - don't be so fliming cheeky!! Tee-hee ('c u' on other list Tues..)AND where's Brian Paddick gone?
Love and solidarity
andria (efthimiou-mordaunt)
Users Voice Ed
I know this won't inspire you with confidence but I left my password at work and not knowing quite what I was doing accidentally changed my post name to 'Brian' from 'The Commander'. Still, I feel more comfortable with this. Those who want to check it out can go back to old posts to see The Commander had changed to 'Brian'.
Now guys, you might find this hard to believe but I am really busy and do not have as much time as I would like to be with you all. It would be great to meet up, face to face, socially and have a real discussion but I am not sure that is allowed:confused:
Adam, I was so irresponsible as to join the police when I was 18. Have your views matured and developed since you were 18? When mine did and I became increasingly concerned about the police and what we were about I though to myself I have 2 choices. Either influence the team from the field of play, become captain some day maybe, or stand on the sidelines and shout. What would be more effective? So I am on the team, playing and influencing. I think you and Ken Livingstone have got something though. I think, with the right safeguards against political control, the local police commander should be held to account for policing his/her areas and recruited/sacked on the basis of doing a good job. I am held to account (should be, it has been a bit of a mess lately) first Tuesday of every month at Lambeth Town Hall, Room 8 at 6pm. Be there or be square. (Not March though I'm on holiday!)
Hatboy - ethnic minority recruiting is better than it was. Peeps are recruited centrally and then sent out to all parts of London. I get no choice as to who I get and it would be against the law to send black recruits to specific areas - discrimination on the grounds of race. There is nothing that makes my blood boil more than racist police officers. I cannot comment on a couple of high profile cases that are still going through the discipline process but we PROSECUTE racist and violent criminals who wear police uniforms. Racist policing is rare in Lambeth (unfortunately not exstinct). Someone has already found out which gay club I go to and is trying to cause SERIOUS shit for me. It's nice to be popular!!
Johnw - we were suffering in Lambeth having to send large numbers of officers to Central London but it has calmed down now. We have very high numbers of female recruits.
Johnny - regular hits on the dealers are not easy. They are getting really aggressive with us at the moment and making death threats against the officers in the front line.
Longtoe - we need to do more about officers' attitudes towards black people, all people who are seen as 'different' from the officers. Allowing them to mix with 'different' people in non-conflict situations is a good move. Giving a mixed team of police officers and BEM people a task to do together is one of the best ways. Let me take these ideas away and have a play with them.
Things are fundamentally different from when I joined 25 years ago but there is always room for improvement. Select one of my offficers at random and you've got a very good chance that s/he won't be racist.
Slowdog - you are right. Most people caught up with drugs are victims of the big dealers. The punters, the street dealers, the mules - they are all exploited. The main reason is poverty - the feeling there is no 'legitimate' way of earning a living so you may as well deal crack. Wrong, misguided and destructive but that's what we've done to these people.
nicnic - this is about criminals full stop. This is not a race issue. This is about poor people being exploited who happen to live on the importation line. Locking up everyone coming in from Jamaica is not the answer.
Drfranni - more youth provision is not really for your kids. It is for the muggers and those at risk of getting into mugging. If they have something better to do, then it will be safer for your kids and the rest of us.
Brian aka 'The Commander'
:)
johnwisehammer
02-02-2002, 20:39
Thanks for making a concerted effort to reply to lots of peeps.
Yes, it is appreciated Brian. Good post. I think you have a lot of support locally. I've never really looked up to a member of the Police force before, but you do have my respect.
Andria - I really don't think having a polite chat with crack dealers and telling them to move along now and not fuck it up for the rest of us would work. At the very least you would be told to fuck off, possibly beaten up and if you were persistent enough you could probably get yourself shot.
I don't know why Cannabis is still ilegal, as this is far from a dangerous drug, it is a wolrd away from harmful drugs like cocaine and heroin. Cannabis users don't fund their habit by crime and cannabis is anything like as addictive as those drugs either. It also wastes police time and the time of the courts in prosecuting cannabis users, when that time could be spent fighting dangerous dealing in dangerous drugs. In America most of the people in prison from Americas war on drugs are harmless cannabis users! This is a complete utter waste of time and resources!
This is a very difficult issue for Brixton. The market stall holders, the shop owners and the overhelming majority of the people of Brixton support my officers attempts to rid the streets of the drug dealers. Someone gave information that a dealer was operating but when officers moved in, the same person was in the crowd making out he was hostile to what the police were doing. When the show was over, he went up to the officers and apologised that he had to join in or the dealers would get him. It is blatant intimidation of ordinary people. Yes it is dangerous to stand up to these people but unless we can think of ways where we can all stand together, so they are out-numbered and realise that everyone is against them, we are not going to get them shifted.
There has to be a priority list of what the police deal with. That is not to say that you can blow cannabis smoke in an officer's face and expect him/her to ignore you. They won't!
We have analysed the results of pilot in Lambeth not to arrest people for small amounts of cannabis for personal use. Results should be out w/c 11 February. I cannot say what the results are but... ;) .
The Home Secretary saw the report on Friday and is taking it into account in deciding whether to reclassify cannabis from Class B to Class C... BUT BE WARNED! Whilst there would be no automatic power of arrest if it goes to Class C, you could still be reported and still get (a maximum of) 2 years imprisonment. If you refuse your name & address you could still get nicked for it. We are a long way from legalisation/decriminalisation.
Brian
It is evident that heroin could be shifted partly or wholly into the medical domain as an alternative to the current system by which it is available. For prohibitionists and reformers alike solutions to problematic crack use and all that goes with it present the hardest challenge.
In your experience of policing crack use in Brixton do you have a sense of any way in which its availability could be regulated that might improve on the current situation? (I'm talking radical thought experiments here - not feasible policies for next week). As a public health specialist I don't get to see much of the enforcement end of things and would genuinely welcome your thoughts.
Just say if this question is too sensitive to answer here. I appreciate that it might be. If so that's OK. I am not interested in the Met's view here but your personal opinion and the development of models that might be long term goals within the drug reform movement.
BTW I am new on the Urban75 site and finding my way around. Hopefully my profile and details are visible. I can also be contacted privately (by you or anyone else) at work on:
n.hunt@ukc.ac.uk
TinyCrendon
04-02-2002, 17:54
.
Adam - I have to be careful. As people have said before, expressing my views here could end-up in the Press or on my bosses desks!
The trouble with legalising drugs is it will inevitably result in more people trying them. I am sure many people are put off because they are illegal. A certain percentage of the population have what I call addictive personalities i.e. they cannot have just one drink but become alcoholics, cannot just use drugs at weekends but drugs take over their lives. There would inevitably be more addicts.
The benefits of legalising drugs are that you could regulate them (over 18s for example), ensure they are pure, clean needles, and so on. The long-term health effects e.g. heart problems from cocaine, would remain but many of the bad side-effects e.g. HIV would reduce. You would also take much of the profit out of it so maybe people would not shoot each other over drug deals. You would still get some people stealing to buy drugs even if they were 'officially' available.
Someone came to see me on Friday and said that a new batch of drug dealers had taken over parts of Brixton pushing the established dealers out. The displaced dealers had to earn a living so they have switched to street robbery. I don't know if it's true but there is always the chance that legalising drugs would just push criminals into some other activity as harmful if not more harmful to the community.
What do I really think? We need to help those people who, if they knew they were going to get addicted, would never have started, to get off the stuff. We need to take the criminality out of it by legalisation and strict control. We need to educate people as to the effects drugs will have on them short term/long term and allow those old enough to know better to make their own decisions about what they do to their bodies.
Nelly, as I have said before, apparently they have developed a cocaine-based tablet that might help with crack/cocaine addiction. I understand that physical crack addiction can be overcome more easily than physical heroin addiction (rather than psychological addiction which is worse in crack).
Johnny Canuck2
04-02-2002, 22:35
Brian, the idea of dealers making death threats against police officers is foreign and offensive to Canadians.
As you know, our police carry guns. And as it is anywhere, the range of opinion about the police varies, but most people recognize that they do a hard job, on our behalf.
People who try to kill police officers here are met with equal force by the police, with the backing of the public.
If your criminals are becoming aggressive to that extent, perhaps the time has come to arm the average cop on the street.
Johnny - please keep any debate on this subject relevant to Brixton and its unique social circumstances.
Brian
It wasn't the treatment issues I was asking about. I am familiar with what local services do, such as the excellent Stockwell Project which is a beacon service as far as working with crack users (we don't always realise how lucky we are to have such a humane, progressive service on our doorstep), And I follow the wider treatment literature myself (and am personally pessimistic about any treatment that will be a magic bullet). The drug field heralds these periodically but I've been in this business a while and they rarely fulfil their promise. What I am interested in is the detail of how we might do what you refer to in your reply:
"The benefits of legalising drugs are that you could regulate them"
I absolutely agree with this principle. However desirable it may be in theory, policing crack out of existence is a chimaera. Pandora's box is open and we can't put it back in. And I am sure we could improve on the way crack is currently available and reduce the harm to crack users and the much larger majority of non-crack users in Brixton. But it is the practice I struggle with. Optimally, what would a regulated crack market in Brixton look like - in detail?
I am assuming a starting point of the removal of the international legislation that limits policy options at present. Would we choose medically supervised availability from a clinic in Colharbour Lane? Over the counter availability? I think not! Licensed control à la alcohol - perhaps through specialist drug services where rapid access to treatment/counselling/rehab could be provided and warnings be provided credibly to adventurers who under-estimate the allure of this drug?
TinyCrendon
05-02-2002, 09:40
.
Dear Brian
I was on this tag a few days ago, and I know you're busy, but when you can I would be delighted to hear a response to this.
The concept that individuals - 12 yr olds who live in city slums all over the world, for example, - would/could know (their vulnerability to chemical dependency) and not take that first shot, snort or smoke is so naive to me.
I am only one person, but I'm almost certain that my experience is not singular. I was 17 when I had my first opiate, and I danced in the nude! I knew something radical had happened to me. A few months later, a boyfriend shot me up with heroin to apologise for hurting me over something. Then I knew straight away that I was an addict, not because I was physiologically hooked immediatelly of course, but simply something VERY deep down inside said; "Home at last; safe at last.."
The drugs field is beginning to understand that some children are more vulnerable than others but are not in a great deal of agreement about prevention measures.
DARE, in the U.S has been a dire waste of public money, and more young Americans are experimenting - at least. Perhaps the fact that a uniformed cop comes into a classroom and talks about illegal drugs is not a good idea???!!!
Over here, the Education/Prevention programs are not that much better. More recently, following some of us screaming out for mentoring services - that is a young person who is clearly beginning to go off the rails get's an adult, often but NOT always who's been to hell and back - and can spend quality time with that child and give them some compassionate and sensible attention and life-training, (whatever you call it.)
I'm sure you are aware that some ex-cons and ex-addicts love that kind of work.
Many of my peers - recovering addicts - certainly those in early recovery are completely anti-legalisation of any drugs as they are terrified of a world where they would have to 'just say no' everytime they walk out onto the streets, and because some of them believe that the incentive to not use would be gone. I've debated that with many of them till we've all gone nearly blue (familiar experience for many of us!!) and it's essentially pointless.
BUT MUCH WORSE is the way that the media preys on this group
a) Using us to demonise drugs, b) dealers (user dealers are generally alright) c) sex-workers and of course ultimately ourselves. This is quite evil to me cos everytime an unknowing person opens their gutter press paper and reads all the misinformation and lies, their FEARS are intensified, and the reform struggle is set back another few years.
I happen to believe that it is only a matter of time till politicians wake up en-masse and begin to listen to the scholars, preachers, politicians, cops, addicts and ex ones too, 'normal' users(!) and their families who are beginning to write protocols about how it would look when everything is legalised. Why? Because we have an aging population who require lots of health service money to care for them, and setting billions of drug enforcement and military money free COULD be used to care for the sick, instead of incarcerating the vulnerable.
Also, several billions will be reaped by Pharmaceuticals, and I happen to know for a fact that a leading drug policy reformer has been approached by the leaders of the capitalist world(s) - multi-nationals - to speak of related issues.
But, I want to comment about Brixton. I have spent a fair amount of time in New York, a bit doing illegal needle-exchange, a lot interviewing often-dying street addicts, giving peer support when and if I can. One of the things that struck me about our community - generally is that we acquiesce to oppression quite easily.
ON The other hand, I will never forget a meeting I had with skinny black woman I met on the Lower east side. She was quite stoned and I am very passionate about these issues. I remember that when I started to talk about the fact that DRUG ADDICTS HAVE RIGHTS THAT ARE BEING DENIED THEM ALL THE TIME AND WE NEED TO START FIGHTING BACK, not only for OUR lives but our loved ones, her head suddenly shot up and she started talking like she hadn't for years.
Amongst addict users, there are good and bad, as everywhere - whether thay are still active users or not. Some of the good ones are doing this kind of work ALL OVER THE WORLD
I would like to know if anything like this is going on in Brixton. And if it isn't and you were interested Brian, would/could you support it in some way?
boomclick
06-02-2002, 11:07
fascinating points in this thread, and respect to Brian for taking time out to respond to people's questions 'on the street' (well this little electronic street)
there is one comment that concerned me - the claim that it's getting difficult to hit dealers because they're becoming aggressive and issuing death threats. (i've paraphrased, but not misrepresented)
surely this cannot be right? does this not send out a message that you can get away with crime as long as you threaten the police enough?
i would have thought that threatening police officers with violence and death would be enough to warrant arrests and shipping police officers from all over the country (to avoid localised retaliation) to carry out mass arrests of dealers.
i don't want to see police officers shot, but if threats stop them doing their job, p'raps they should be in a different job?
Andria
I read your post in awe - you have my respect. I am a real amateur here trying to fumble my way through this stuff. I am not someone who has any real first-hand experience like you. This is what this is all about - express, explore, inform - I have no fixed ideas on this stuff.
You're right, if we are getting 12 year olds exposed to this stuff then I do not expect them to be able to make the right 'informed choices' around drugs. That would be naive. If we could regulate to make it very difficult for people to even try this stuff out before they had to wisdom to make those decisions, would that work? I'm not sure.
I think uniform cops in schools should restrict themselves to what they know - what the criminal consequences are. They (well most of them) have never experienced drugs themselves, they are not medically qualified, so why should the kids listen to what they have to say about how evil drugs are. 'You can get x years for possessing y drug', full stop. The people that need to talk about the long-term medical problems are medical people and the people who need to talk to kids about how drugs can screw your life up are recovering addicts.
We are doing some mentoring, or should I say the local Youth Offender Team (local authority) and voluntary sector are doing mentoring with 'at risk' and 'offender' young people but not around drugs I don't think. But it is really powerful if you get the right people involved (like you?)
As I said before being illegal puts many people off. I am not sure it puts addicts off - the urge is too strong (but what do I know). You list a whole batch of victims who are demonised by the media. I am glad you make a distinction between user-dealers (i.e. just enough to feed their habit) and non-user dealers (who just exploit the victims and don't care if anyone dies). I would only go as far as 'the lesser of two evils' as far as these types of dealer are concerned.
There is only one place for chaotic drug users (addicts) and that's rehab. Treatment, may be treatment in prison, but treatment, help, support, ... That is the way out, the only way out I think.
Adam - if we want a real, gloves-off debate, suggesting this is going to end up in some newspaper article is not a good way to get it. Of course the beauty of the internet is that no-one can prove who you are. First newspaper article based on these boards and I'm out of here.
I have to be pragmatic. I deal in the real world, the art of the possible. You make some very heavy and disturbing points and I am glad that you do. Give me some time to think about what you say.
Nelly - I'm not ignoring you. No time at the moment. I'll get back to you.
:)
christonabike
06-02-2002, 14:37
I, also, would like to know why officers are not arresting dealers in Brixton because of threats.
It sort of goes against the grain.
boomclick - Sorry - wrong message going out here! The more my brave and fearless officers are threatened, the more determined they are to get stuck in! We do not retreat in the face of such threats. we do not routinely arm our officers either. I mean there are armed officers that Brixton officers can call on and they respnd very quickly but we do not routinely arm police officers and no Lambeth officers are armed (not with guns anyway - they have batons and CS spray).
Adam - the art of the possible - I do not give two hoots about my promotion prospects but I do care about keeping my job here in Brixton. One step too far and I might be counting paper clips in Personnel Department! I am seriously reviewing the whole way we are tackling drug dealing in Brixton. 'Do nothing' is not an option and whilst I, with help from you guys I hope, think about what would work better (bearing in mind I cannot change the law), I have to do something and I have to be seen to do something. If I thought there was a serious risk that my officers would be killed I would withdraw them and replace them with armed officers. I do not want that sort of escalation and it is not necessary at the moment (difficult call).
Nelly - sorry it was you I should have reassured earlier - I do not know what a regulated crack market would look like. Something like your last paragraph appeals but I am no expert.
TinyCrendon
06-02-2002, 15:31
Brian - Im not `suggesting` anything but the internet is public dude. If you want to debate then debate but you cant then make conditions afterwards. Personally I'm not interested in publishing this i dont think theres anything v interesting there at all. But you are my equal, not my superior (even though you have lot more power than I do), you can't make conditions about coming here. You debate with ordinary bods or you dont. You might note i use my full name etc etc...
But look, maybe you'd make a really good legalisation advocate. What is so good about your job when you will be enforcing laws you dont agre with, in a violent and nasty trade when people you might know and like/love may die (armed officers or not).
I guess we've run out of stuff to say here. But I honestly can't understand your personal make up. Knowingly doing things that you don't agree with is not in my make up, knowingly doing things that MAKE THE SITUATION worse and kill and dehumanise people is even further from the mark (i guess we dont agree on the last point but i cant tell from what youve written, seems you will go ahead doing what you're told to).
Why stay in an organisation that is (on this subject) doing very bad things you dont appear to like ?
Please check a few of these sites Brian: you will find that you are up against powers you have no control over, who would trash you - a man who appears to have played by the rules set by the powerful - just to import more coke, you're just like us in some ways replaceable, so don't let it happen to you, do what your principles dictate. u only live 1ce innit !
I can put you in touch with former US cops Mike Ruppert (FBI) and Cele Castillo (DEA Spec Ops), they would make an interesting chat. Would you like that?
respect
adz
www.narconews.com
www.copvcia.com
www.thedrugwar.com
boomclick
06-02-2002, 15:36
cheers for the reply brian,
further to your information that established dealers have had to turn to street robbery because of new dealers...
...anecdotal evidence of what's been happening in brixton recently would bear this out. there seems to be *a lot* of street robbery around brixton at the moment. several friends of mine have been mugged in the last month or two, a couple have been assaulted and these boards have had notices of muggings, especially at the cashpoints in brixton and in josephine avenue.
of course, these attacks could as (if not more) easily be attributed to dealer's desperate clients, but there does seem to be a worrying trend.
is there an apparent increase in street robbery at 'your end' of the issue (ie increased reports/arrests) ?
brixton has been through ups and downs over the last 20 years, but mid to late 90s saw an increase in the 'perceived' safeness of the streets. it would be a tragedy for this trend to reverse...
Adam Porter - You ask Brian:
"Why stay in an organisation that is (on this subject) doing very bad things you dont appear to like ?"
I'm sure Brian can answer that himself. I would like to offer my defense however. Which is that the way you change institutions like the Police, or one way, is from the inside. Which I imagine is what Brian is attempting to do by doing what he can within his remit and what he believes is good for the area. The situation may not be perfect, but I certainly haven't ever come into contact with a cop who seems to care to this extent and seems to take an honest practical approach to the subject. Mr Paddick has stuck his neck out to come here. I started this thread and although I've left it to others to do most of arguing I have followed it with great interest. This is about what happens on my doorstep! I have learned alot about the local Police and about Commander Paddick the man.
Implying that he should get out of the Police if he doesn't like everything they do isn't helpful atall. As someone who lives in the area I'm more interested in a practical exchange of views than any philosophical or intellectual muscle-flexing. I would appreciate some respect in this and I know Mike (editor) who also lives in the middle of Brixton feels similar. :)
wildwildlifer
07-02-2002, 08:12
Could I second, or rather third, that emotion, hatboy.
By the way, Brian , it was not your technological incompetence that caused
your 'identity' to change. Several of us had our nom de plums changed , inadvertently
(?), as a result of the Ed's improvements to the boards.
he who once was and maybe again, Johnny Butterfly
TinyCrendon
07-02-2002, 08:44
.
OK Adam, I never said I was opposing your view. I'm not anti-legalisation. I don't know the answers - mainly listening here. I just want people who don't live here to keep the topic local/practical please. After all, it's people who live in Brixton who are on the blunt end of this. For the record I don't call anyone "scum" either.
As for naming a Police force that's changed from inside. Well in small ways, the Met - as people like Brian demonstrate. He is in it and he is (or if you want to be cynical, appears to be) different.
Brian can't get drugs legalised, but in his position he can contribute an opinion to the debate that may be heard. He can also make a difference to Police/community relations here, street safety and crime levels.
Sorry to seem patronising Adam, I know you're a clever guy. BUT you don't LIVE HERE.
TinyCrendon
07-02-2002, 12:52
.
These things do affect other areas of London I know - yeah. I like you better now you're more chatty and less like a College Lecturer. :)
TinyCrendon
07-02-2002, 15:16
point taken
Adam - I have great respect for you and what you say. I cannot stand around waiting for others to come to their senses whilst peoples' lives are destroyed through drugs. I have to work in the real world the way it is now. I have expressed my personal views on live TV in front of a Home Affairs Committee. I am not affraid to stand up and be counted. I am doing what I think is right in the current circumstances even if I think I would do something different if the law was different. What I need the answer to is this: With Brixton as it is and the law as it is what is the best way for me to use the resources and the power that I have? This is not a cop out and I have engaged in the philosophical/hypothetical debate here and in Parliament :rolleyes: BUT WHAT DO I DO IN MY CURRENT POSITION NOW? HELP ME!! :eek:
hatboy, I think I love you!:D
boomclick
07-02-2002, 16:10
what can you do with current law and current resources?
it's a tough question because two of the biggest problems are lack of resources and hopeless laws, but how about:
sweeping through atlantic road/coldharbour lane a couple of times a day and arresting a dealer each time? co-ordination between those watching the cctv footage and those on the street should make it (relatively) easy enough, no? it's not practical to try to arrest all the dealers, but picking one or two a day would eventually have some sort of effect, surely? two months into the campaign there'd be 100 less dealers on the street.
perhaps the dealers would be less easily replaced if they've got a 1 in 20 chance of getting nicked *every day*.
if this is successful, step it up, double the number of sweeps.
how about having police actually on the streets around brixton centre *all the time*? are there insufficient resources for, say, 2 teams of 2 police officers to patrol brixton centre?
i can't remember the last time i saw police patrolling in brixton (as opposed to standing outside the tube with sniffer dogs or zooming about in vans and cars)
to be honest, i think brixton would be a less intimidating place if the drug dealing was simply less flagrant.
also more CCTV.
finally (and this shouldn't be too difficult but potentially outside your remit) how about lighting jospehine avenue properly?
Could the Brian / Hatboy romance overtake the Drew / Tribal Princess lovefest? Vote now ;)
But seriously, is there any way to move what (appears to me) to be the main concentration of crack/smack dealing to a less central part of the borough?
I have very little knowledge of the way that this scene seems to work but it seems to me that the robbery / prostitution / needles / guns etc etc are always very close to where the actual dealing takes place. Let the dealers know that there will be zero tolerance of crack/smack dealing in the centre of town but that there will be a slightly more lenient view taken if it occurs in a less populous part of the borough away from schools, houses and passers by (no idea where this place would be - are there any empty industral estates around?).
Is there any way that you can get your cops to "persuade" the dealers that any crack/smack dealing in the centre will be stamped on hard, but that if they are "only" dealing other drugs on a relatively small scale the attitude will be a little more laissez faire.
Have the cops that you polled come up with any useful suggestions yet?
Just seen boomclick's post and agree completely with him (he/she expresses himself much better than I do).
Lighting Josephine Avenue is a must (perhaps getting the trees trimmed back a bit as well might help). For what it is worth (very little I know) I moved house recently and despite seeing many great places in Leander / Josephine / Helix etc decided not to go there because of the street crime there
boomclick
07-02-2002, 17:41
i've just thought of another idea...
this is off thetop of my head, so apologies if it's not properly thought through. it might even exist already, but i don't think so.
there is a dedicated drugs team at brixton police station, yes? there are also plain police constables, who are the one's who patrol the streets (possibly?).
why not combine the two - 'bobbys on the beat' dedicated exclusively to class A drug crime? with the right publicity, and attitude on the street, i think this would go down a storm with people on the streets of brixton who are traditionally anti-police.
see those coppers over there? - there not going to arrest mr market stall trader for smoking a spliff, but they will walk up & down coldharbour lane, and politely ask groups of big men in leather jackets (who've been ID's over CCTV as dealers) to move along, or they'll be arrested the next time round.
the point wouldn't be to *stop* the dealers, we all know that's next to impossible - but it would inconvenince them - their clients wouldn't know where to find them from day to day, fix to fix and they'd have to make other arrangements - safe houses (like the old crack shop on railton road), alternative places, whatever. the message has to go out loud and clear that the heart of brixton, with it's shops, schools and local life - is *not* a suitable crack or heroin dealing place.
i suppose the key to all the suggestions i've made today is to make life difficult for the dealers. what angers a lot of people i know is that the dealers act like they can do what they like, as openly as they like - and no-one's going to do anything about it. which, to be fair, seems to be the case at the moment.
what really puzzles me are all the portuguese heroin addicts around brixton. back home they'd get sunshine, could register as addicts and get prescription heroin and addiction treatment. why the f*ck get pranged on the platform of brixton station instead?
oh - one final point - brixton needs more resources allocated to the police. this should be obvious and would be easy to get if a few of the people in charge of deciding were brought down to brixton and asked to walk unaccompanied down atlantic road, coldharbour lane etc.
brian - you've got to try to get the bean counters to actually *see* what's going on...
Well!! What can I say. Thanks Brian - just trying to be fair. Seen you on telly though and your not my type - anyway I only go out with dealers. ;)
Moving on, aside from what others have said (sticking all the dealers on a deserted industrial estate is a hilarious and unworkable idea Nick) I think the simple presence of more foot patrols around the centre of Brixton more of the time would make some difference, especially after dark. I was in Coldharbour at about 1am yesterday and the street was deserted. Then I see two or three Police by the Granada car hire.
I do want to emphasize however, that I personally do not want to see any oppression of Brixton's street culture, nor any hassling of people just shooting the breeze (if that's the right expression). I like all that. Nor do I personally mind dealers as such. What I object to are dealers/users who rob, intimidate and use violence. I hope we all clear on that otherwise we'll end up sounding like "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells".
So, not "swamp", just a presence.
I'm still baffled why the dealers are allowed to ply their trade with complete impunity all along Coldharbour Lane, one of Brixton's major thoroughfares.
Walk along the stretch from the Dogstar to the Prince of Wales and you'll have no trouble finding someone to accompany you on your journey, hussling you with requests to buy 'drugs' off them.
While this doesn't particularly bother me (I've lived here far too long to get upset by idiots trying to sell duff drugs) many people find their presence on the street very intimidatory indeed - to the point where some girls I know are too scared to walk down the street. Why should women have to put up with this kind of intimidation?
Seeing as the various bars, restraurants and clubs on that stretch of Coldharbour Lane must generate substantial income for Brixton, surely it makes sense to post some police there - and put up some decent lighting?
I'm in agreement with what Mike, Hatboy and others have suggested as practical and workable solutions (I know a few people who will not go down Coldharbour for the reasons Mike outlined); however, what happens if and when these actions are implemented ? Will the problem just merely move down the road to Camberwell or other locations ?
I say this, as to my mind, a great deal of the increase in open dealing/drug taking in Brixton has been in response to squeezes on places such as King's Cross, and even more centralised locations such as around Centre Point.
Surely it just becomes a circular argument unless we take into account some of the wider issues that Adam brought up ?
Johnny Canuck2
07-02-2002, 21:51
Andria: the most profound, most concrete, most seductive, and most frightening description of addiction I have come across -
"Home at last, safe at last."
I hope you are safe.
God, yeah Johnny, I thought that too. "Home at last, safe at last" - frightening and profound.
unclekellan
08-02-2002, 00:17
been hearing a lot bout this thread - and respect due Mr Commander.
some points i would like to raise, if thats ok
decriminalisation/legalisation is a nest of thorns. so are the division between hard/soft drugs and dealers/users.
is cannabis ok and not ecstacy; is ketamine ok and not ampethamine. what about users who deal to support their havbit rather than burgarling
if a users sells to other chaotic-users are they a treated as a chaotic user or a dealer.
how much co-operation is there between brixton police and other boroughs. if brixton managed to eradicate or reduce the drug/crime related problem - would it simply be exporting the problem to another borough, in the same way westminster exported the sex industry to camden
how much support does brixton police have from the CPS re its policies regarding difference between users and dealers
which prisons do most users prosecuted in brixton get sent and what are the drug rehab schemes / ex-prisoner support schemes like at those prisons
how many, if any, drug rehab programmes are there in brixton area and how many are working with the police over targaetting dealers rather than chaotic users.
------
comment rather than questions
seems to me that one of the major problems in dealing with street crime, whether it is drug or violence is the problem of prosecution. one could swamp an area with officers but if one cannot get evidence and/or witnesses then the offenders walk.
all the wrining of hands and complaining about the prescence of drug dealers wont make a jot of difference if people wont come forward to testify
while i am cautiously in agreement with decriminalisation - one has to recognise that that wont in itself solve crime resulting out of addiction. one only has to look at alcohol related crime to see that.
one of the ways that the public may feel more empowered and involved and confident in getting actively involved in this issue, and therefore may (*may*) lead more people to feel mre confident about witnessing is if more police were prepared to get up and talk about stuff to local residents.
meanwhile, adam, it has to be said - if The Man comes to you and ask yur opinion when he has no requirement to do so, then insulting him and attacking him is not going to get your point listened to - he is more likely to retreat back behind his desk and nothing changes.
unclekellan
08-02-2002, 00:24
here's another takle on upping the police prescence in central brixton
lets say you follow the suggestions by some other posters and putting plain clothed and uniformed police on the street and sniffer dogs and increase the patrol cars - what happens when the black community and the gay community start to say they are feeling intimidated and/or harrassed by such a massive increase in police prescence.
i' m not saying its the wrong approach, just that put into context of other isssues and it can be seen in totally different way.
johnwisehammer
08-02-2002, 08:58
Strangely, I think you'll find it's not only black and gay people that don't like the idea of a neighbourhood where every third person on the street is a copper and where passive sniffer dogs roam.
TinyCrendon
08-02-2002, 10:04
You are all lovely as far as i can tell. When I argue about political issues i tend not to take many prisoners - hence the college lecturing. But I find thats the best way...Im kinda used to arguing against rightys all the time so you have to win arguments no ?
Brian asked `with the powers that i've got what can i do` and once again mentioned the `real world`. Well obviously the word `do` is operative here. You can always `do` something (street lighting like mike says on that bit of coldharbour lane and in general around that end of CHL/market/dogstar/ritzy bit etc etc isnt good).
But, respectfully and compassionately to all, if you take the word `do` to mean anything long term or concrete on the subject of drug misue and its surrounding problems then the answer to Brians question has to be...`nothing`. He can do nothing. And Im not laughing when i say this, it doesnt make me go AHA! SEE! It makes me want to leave the country...
sonicdancer
08-02-2002, 11:19
I agree with you Adam, firstly on the fact that it is a political issue and secondly that there is not much Brian can do he is caught in the middle really, there is over whelming support for legalisation of cannabis in some parts of the country but in middle england this suggestion is reacted to very badly.
The vote winners come from this surburbia land and I doubt very much if Blair will do anything before the next election if at all, even with the best efforts of Blunkett dropping hints and breaking new ground (lowering the classification) (introducing a trial more acceptance of smaller ammounts in Lambeth),
I walked down the lane last night and there seemed to be MORE than ever dealers between KFC and the pub, all muttering Marijuana, Ganja, Skunk, Sensi etc etc, it then dawned on me that the sweeping approach might backfire BADLY there are so many dealers there now more than ever I think this tactic may well be futile, and too dangerous (which figures with Brian's almost desperate plea's for ideas, as this has im sure been tried) and also (made me dismiss the suggestion of zero tolerance).......... but they where advertising the smoke NOT crack, pills, base. although I have no doubt whatsoever the shelves are stacked with these also.
The point I am trying to make Brian and what other's too have debated is that if Cannabis was legalised and distribution is controlled, there is no reason for dealers to be standing in the streets when there is controlled outlets. SO what you could do and believe you have been doing already so carry on is attempting to lobby influencial governement and high ranking police figures into this idea of legalisation, therefore giving no ligitimate reason for dealers to be there (so they must be holding class A's).
Taking it back to Brixton Guns Crack. I would suggest that you start making suggestion's reference making an area within Brixton (ONLY) which encompasses all the patches of the dealers a "Cannabis can be legally bought" zone.
The dealers choose to deal on the streets, probably as a last resort but I bet they actually like the past-time, in the Brixton Jamaican circles I bet the status is probably quite high, the pressure and dangers inherhant mean they are more likely to arm themselves, inturn they are more likely to shoot someone, especially anyone who gets in the way (your officers brian)
This is going to be a long drawn out affair for police and mainly and more importantly Government to wake up to trialing radicale ideas in an effort to reduce gun crime on our streets
drfranni
08-02-2002, 11:20
I AM a wet liberal and cannot help being deeply immersed in "the personal is political" but I am totally signed up to the idea that WE can do something
I hate the fear that street crime brings, I hate that my children are fearful of going to the cornershop (however my son browses the music shops on CHL with impunity - says he feels safe there!)
Two nights ago, I got off the bus as usual, as LJ. This is not a very "safe looking" area. A man was shouting at his GF -seemed very out of control and violence seemed imminent. Many people, including the large group of people how are usually in front of the supermarket and the barbers, stopped and looked. There seemed no doubt that any of us (myself included) was ready to intervene. The bloke stopped, looked, and calmed down - a bit. We made the street a safer place for a few seconds
If it had been a dealer, I suspect that we would all have had second thoughts, I'm a big ol' girl but doubt I could argue with a bullet. Fear makes the streets less safe and I have no idea how to overcome this but I am also sure that there will never be "enough" police on the streets to achieve this - we are also part of the solution - if a solution exists
This is indeed the most amazing thread.
It is hard to keep this thread to practical solutions in Brixton because the problem is neither local nor simple.
In fact, the situation in Brixton is not unique or, dare I say it, particularly bad. There are ghettos in this city that are suffering much worse from guns and crack. But they go unnoticed because they have no trendy bars, no flash websites, and no liberal professionals living there who are able and willing to do something about it. Their pain never makes the pages of the Evening Standard, let alone the national press and television (or even Year Zero).
I too believe the personal is political, and for that reason I question whether the police have the answers. Some individuals within the police service may have the best of intentions and their opinion is valuable. But the police, as an institution, is not answerable to the people they police, but ultimately to their political masters, and we all know who pull their strings. While this remains the case, change to the police service from within, and change to the most deprived neighbourhoods of London are at best cosmetic, and at worst a pipe dream.
Dear Slowdog and Adam too
You make vital statements about the role of the police, and whom they are ultimately answerable too. But hey, he is here with us on line and while Adam continues to get him to read those sites, and I pressure him to try and strategise, we ALL need to think about the issue, cos it is ALL our problems
Like AIDS was never a gay men's disease, drugs are here now and everywhere. If each one of us did one thing per day, things cumulatively change dramatically.
I'm going to assume that if you are on this thread you care like I do about the drug problem, whether it is Brixton or not, and this mentoring stuff can be done by almost anybody with a heart and mind - ALL of us. AND it costs 1 hour a week
That's just one of many ideas; it's not about trying to presuade kids not to use, but it is ab