View Full Version : *Brixton Movement for Justice March
On Friday evening people gathered outside Brixton Town Hall for a 'Movement for Justice' march in protest at the murders of 4 people by police in Brixton in the last few months; including Derek Bennett, Ricky Bishop and Joseph Crentsil. The march was also held to fight the politically motivated sacking of Lambeth Council worker Alex Owolade, Chairman of 'Movement for Justice' and campaigner in the fight against racism and police brutality.
The march moved off peacefully at 6.30 and proceeded past the scenes of the 4 killings. After speeches from the families of the murder victims, a decision was then taken by the crowd to continue to Brixton police station where the demonstration against police racism and brutality would end.
About a mile away from the police station, the still peaceful crowd were confronted in a side street by 4 riot vans full of police. The police jumped out, already tooled up in full riot gear, with batons drawn, and formed a line in front of the march. They then charged the crowd, which included children and relatives of the murder victims; who were forced to run in the opposite direction only to be pushed back by another line of police from the other side. Some initially managed to escape the second line of police and run down more side-streets, only to find themselves continually charged at by more riot police and forced to run into estates.
Some of the crowd managed to escape onto the High Street, where some were arrested and others are currently being held in a large cordon, under Section 60 of the Public Order Act.
In frustration and anger at the polices' violent and heavy-handed disruption of a legal march to protest at police brutality and murder, groups of teenagers smashed up shop fronts on the High Street.
What a shame that a bunch of opportunistic teenagers chose to smash up the shop fronts of local traders right before Christmas: it does nothing for the cause whatsoever.
johnwisehammer
24-12-2001, 09:57
If what steelie says is true/accurate, then this is fucking unbelieveable - have the Brixton police learned absolutely fuck all in the last twenty years? Everyone knows that it's uncool for fuzz to be heavy-handed but they've got to be mental to do it in Brixton - a place with a track record of mass trouble kicking off after police abuses of power.
I disagree...In my long experience of public order situations in brixton it is entirely to be expected that if you hold an unscheduled march on brixton nick then the cops are going to tool up and have it with you...So if you are going to do it then go for it properly and in my opinion do it up west! :)
Well done for putting this up Steelgate. Considering the heavyhanded Police tactics (if your account is accurate Steelgate, and I beleive it is) and the continued disproportiate amount of deaths of black men (either in Police custody or as a result of Police action), I'm not sure the reaction of what Mike calls "opportunistic teenagers" is so reprehensible.
Yes it's sad when local businesses suffer (couldn't care less about the chain stores), but what are people supposed to do when they feel they have no voice and there is no change?
As JWH says "Have the Police learned absolutely fuck-all in the last twenty years"?
William of Walworth
28-12-2001, 16:01
This was happening exactly the same time some of us (includimg Derek) were in the Duke of Edinburgh for our pre-Xmas drink -- I didn't believe it at the time (I admit I thought the rumours were being exaggerated, and I saw no sign of it when I went to get the bus) but turns out to be true.
Nothing to add to JWH's and hatboy's reactions.
I've searched all the major news sites and can't find anything to back up Derek's unsubstantiated claims.
I was also in Brixton just after the events supposedly took place and didn't see any trashed shops, rampaging youths or baton wielding poicemen (although there were quite a lot of police around in vans).
Seeing as it's clear Derek wasn't actually there, perhaps he might cite his sources?
And much as I'd love to be able to jump to the conclusion that whenever gangs of youths start trashing things it's always as a justified and spontaneous reaction to police brutaity and political disenfranchisement, but I'm afraid I find that argument a little naive at times.
There's always gangs of yoots ready to smash stuff up, regardless of their colour, location, social status and/or political persuasion.
Sadly, many earnest and worthwhile political causes attract some of these people whose violent actions rarely do much for the objectives of the cause.
[ 28 December 2001: Message edited by: editor ]
I wasn't out and about that night Mike so maybe it didn't kick off quite as Derek said.
I hope you're not calling me naive. I don't think "whenever gangs of youths start trashing things it's always as a justified and spontaneous reaction to police brutaity and political disenfranchisement".
But I do think that it sometimes is and that it's sometimes justified.
I might add that the original Brixton riots were a reaction to "police brutaity and political disenfranchisement".
Hatboy: I'm not calling you naive (I know you far too well for that ;) ).
There has been justified reasons for rioting in Brixton in the past, but I'd be very, very, wary of jumping to the defence of each and every act of mob vandalism that occurs there.
Some may well be the youth articulating their feeings about police oppression in the only way they know how, but there's always opportunistic troublemakers out for what they can get.
You've only got to look at the long history of violent minorities attaching themselves to peaceful demos for proof of such practices and I don't see why Brixton demos should be any different...
I think we're basically agreeing anyway, although with only Derek's unattributed report to go on, I'll remain slightly sceptical about his claims!
Right enough of this serious stuff - you down the Albert tonight?!!
(edited for appalling hangover spelling)
I arrived in Brixton just as the events I have described were happening and stayed around for about half an hour before going down to the Duke of Edinburgh. These events started long before everyone got to the Duke of Edinburgh for the meet up. On my way back at 11pm there was still a police presence in Brixton town centre as crowds left the Brixton Academy, with police on the streets in riot gear and a police helicopter circling above.
If people arrived late to the Duke of Edinburgh for the meet up as most did then that must be why they missed seeing what happened.
[ 29 December 2001: Message edited by: steelgate. ]
I missed it, Derek.
I was leaving Brixton Academy after seeing The Pogues and didn't see anything like that at all. :confused:
ColinTheCopper
29-12-2001, 12:30
Sorry Steelgate but your talking out your arse....
You're the sort of person who believes what you read in THE VOICE.
I dont mind you telling lies to others but please dont lie to yourself.
freethepeeps
29-12-2001, 12:43
ColintheCopper
Welcome to the boards.
It always makes my heart glow with joy, when I see such insightful, thought out and reasoned first posts! :rolleyes:
And how kind of you to remind us that everything the Voice prints is lies!
Is it cos it is a black newspaper, maybe?
I can certainly vouch for the fact that the protest was surrounded by cops for some considerable time, and that Brixton Town Centre was awash with cops in riot helmets when I walked through it at about 11pm that night.
Perhaps you could write another insightful post explaining how the black deaths in custody were not racially motivated, and how it was just co-incidence that several black men and no white men died.
I await your second post with eager anticipation!
;)
ColinTheCopper
29-12-2001, 13:13
Is there anyone on this forum who doesn't believe all the bullshit that makes the press....?
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE FUCKING COFFEE YOU CLOWNS.
It really makes me so angry to think that people still believe all copper are racist, We only arrest black people, You get beaten up when you get arrested and ONLY black peole die in police custody....
Off the top of my head go and do a search on Glenn Howard. A white man who died after being arrested. But it didn't make the papers because nobody is interested in white people dieing at the hands of the police.
Don't get me wrong it's tragic when someone dies but how the fuck can it be racially motivated....? Do we wait in the custody office for a non white prisoner and think yeah right, lets kill that one because of his colour....?
Remember if you live by the sword you die by the sword....
mobymonster
29-12-2001, 13:59
freetheXmasbillions, The Voice.... just a tad biased don't you think ?
steelgate, remind me has anyone be found guilty of their murder ? if you run around brandishing a gun why get so pissed off if you get shot ? only a complete moron uses a gun lookalike, maybe that's what "cool" gangsta's use.
Colinthecopper, welcome to the twilight zone.
mobymonster
freethepeeps
29-12-2001, 14:03
So why was one of them shot several times in the back, Mobymonster?
What can I say. IF you want to see Colin the Cop's track record of visionary rhetoric then have a look at the forum in Brixtonline. :confused:
There goes the neighbourhood.
Colin - just to save people time: Based on your posts on the Brixtonline forum it's never been clear whether a)you are really a cop, b) you are black or white (you say you are a black cop), c) you are sincere, d) you are an intelligent man?
When I say "never been clear" I mean in the sense that you give the very strong impression of being none of those things. I hope if you stick around here you're gonna talk some sense because at least some of the people who come here have a brain.
So, seriously Colin?
johnwisehammer
29-12-2001, 14:57
Colin: thanks for that insight into the wonderful equal opportunity world of deaths in custody. In your bonkers mind, apparantly if it's not racially motivated, it's okay. Hmmm.
Moby: what's wrong with The Voice?
"has anyone be found guilty of their murder?"
yes, dear. Welcome to the issue. :rolleyes:
ColinTheCopper
29-12-2001, 15:06
Hatboy,
a) Yes
b) Black
c) Sometimes
d) Intelligent...? - Not very bright I'm afraid, I thought it was cool to mess around at school. If only I'd listened.
There goes the neighbourhood....? Dont you go out your house....? Brixton was fucked along time before I arrived. It's people with their stereotypical outdated views that's stopping it getting better...
"Brixton was fucked a long time before I arrived"
Do you really beleive that?
OK, Brixton is an inner city area with it's share of problems, and these get people talking. But, I definitely beleive that there is so much more about the area that is so positive. Remarkably and uniquely so.
Yes I do go out of my house.
To give you a chance - if we're going to communicate all I ask for is sincerity. Otherwise what's the point?
That Movement For Justice march was surrounded though and placed under a section 60 order after marching up the High Street from the Town Hall. I saw it for myself. The police response seemed way over the top for a march so small as it had less than a hundred people on it. There was no need to surround the march like that and hold everyone for ages as it was totally peacefull and could easily be controlled.
I don't believe what I read in the Voice newspaper and I hardly ever read that paper anyway.
I did tell a few people at the DofE when I arrived what had happened...but no matter.
Tis true. All true. Cept the section 60 part - they didn't declare a section 60 which has some legal standing, they said they were holding everyone to prevent a breach of the peace....? Despite nothing having happened.
As to those who say we should have been prepared for what happened and that it was to be expected - are you seriously saying that we should stop fighting against injustice and police brutality because the cops might be heavy handed? That is exactly what we were demonstrating about!
24 of us were held by at least 60 riot cops. There were far more cops in a supporting role as well. It was terrifying, and reminded me why I hate the police as much as I do.
As for those kids - let me tell you about them. They, as well as others on the march, had just witnessed one of their brothers being violently and arbitrarily arrested. The kid had his knees, elbows and neck knelt on as he was cuffed. And this was way before any window smashing had happened. A couple of us went with them to Brixton nick to at least make sure he had a lawyer, to be confronted by locked doors and a handmade "closed" sign.
We had all witnessed a peaceful, if determined rally being attacked by police in riot gear. They chased the friends, families and supporters of victims of police murder as if we were dangerous animals.
The police tried to suppress and provoke our fury in order that we fall silent and become silent, disempowered and easily governed by beating our heads against a brick wall.
Those kids screamed Fuck You in their actions. Opportunistic? Nah, that's every commentator who from the safety of a keyboard and computer monitor uses their actions to defend why they were not on the march with us. Perhaps if all of you who were reading this and give a fuck about justice were there the cops would not have been able to do what they did and the kids would not have felt so helpless and infuriated that all they could do was smash a couple of windows.
Nothing has ever been achieved by sitting quietly and placidly on the sidelines. We get only that which we fight for and wrench from authority's cold grip. Our passion is our truest weapon.
I cheered when I heard what the kids had done. Cheered that they would not be cowed. A few multinationals' windows can be replaced but a smashed and defeated soul tarnishes the world
ColinTheCopper
30-12-2001, 00:42
"You cheered at what the kids had done"...?
What....? Smashed some shop windows and got themselves some new trainers....
Yeah right on. Up the revolution.
Is it true more people hate Gingers than hate the police.....?
Ruby Toogood
30-12-2001, 09:47
No. :)
"Yeah right on. Up the revolution"
cringe :eek: ... this bloke must be a copper!
good post ginger :)
Nice to see the usual level of prejudice from the boys (and girls) in blue.
You'll be telling me next that you don't have anything *against* gingers, but they just don't fit in round here and should go back where they came from... :rolleyes: :o
ColinTheCopper
30-12-2001, 12:39
So where do Gingers come from then....?
It would be nice to know who to blame....
ColinTheCopper
30-12-2001, 12:41
Sorry Bezzer, I was quoting Rick from the young ones.... I suppose I didn't make it clear.
I thought all the leftie pinkos would recognise it straight away as he is obiously their role model.... ;)
Compost (http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame50.html) or Troller (http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame29.html) ?
Who is the mysterious Colin the Copper?
He even seems to be after Evil Clown (http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame35.html) status with his Young Ones reference.
There have been a few campaigns for justice for white people too who had been killed in similar situations such as Harry Stanley who was shot while carrying a table leg that police thought was a shotgun. There was also another case in which a suspected IRA member was shot down on his doorstep a while back.
mobymonster
30-12-2001, 20:20
There have been a few campaigns for justice for white people too who had been killed in similar situations and can I assume that Alex Owolade, Chairman of 'Movement for Justice' campaigned on the white's behalf ?
mobymonster
and can I assume that Alex Owolade, Chairman of 'Movement for Justice' campaigned on the white's behalf
The united friends and family campaign were involved in the harry stanley case. I don't know whether the Brixton based M4J were involved directly but Harry's best friend was at one of the M4J things I went to, so at least some of their supporters were involved.
Police oppression is not just a race issue, and I don't know anyone who believes thats all it is.
freethepeeps
31-12-2001, 07:16
and can I assume that Alex Owolade, Chairman of 'Movement for Justice' campaigned on the white's behalf ?
What exactly was the point of this question, Moby? Surely no deaths in police custody are acceptable! Neither are deaths at the hands of police marksmen! It would be absurd to expect the M4J to be campaigning against the deaths of whites in custody, when there have been 3 black deaths in the last 4 months, and no white deaths during that period!
If you are asking whether Alex Owolade or the M4J are racist, then the answer is NO!! There were many whites on the march and at the meetings and they were welcomed without hostility!
So, what were you trying to establish?
:confused:
mobymonster
31-12-2001, 07:48
freethepeeps, if you were taken hostage and had a gun pointed at you (by, what was reported at the time by locals as someone involved with drugs)I'm sure after you had stopped shitting your pants that you wouldn't give a toss how the police rescued you and are you suggesting that armed criminals should not be tackled by armed police.
It's quite simple really if you carry a gun and commit a crime tough shit if you get shot, don't want to get shot don't carry a gun or an offensive wpn. Yes I know mistakes get made and that's tragic, but it's life. The criminals who carry guns are the ones who have caused the police to be armed not the other way round.
I accept that this march started out with good intentions but as usual the rent a mob turns into violence, so what do you expect the police to do ?
You asked earlier why was one shot in the back several times, who cares, the probable answer is because thats where some of the armed police were and contary to the films one shot does not always incapacitate or kill thats why several shots were fired. If I was taken hostage by some moron I wouldn't care where he was shot, front, back and sides would do me fine and many many times would be good also.
Why have you brought race into this ? and lastly why was Alex sacked ? (I have run a search but can't get the info)
mobymonster
PS happy new year lefties ;)
freethepeeps
31-12-2001, 08:01
I accept that this march started out with good intentions but as usual the rent a mob turns into violence, so what do you expect the police to do ?
Erm, wrong ! The shop windows were smashed after the police decided to circle the march! The police claimed that they were trying to prevent a breach of the peace! Hm - looks like they caused one!
Why have you brought race into this ?
I thought that was you Moby - see the quote on my last post!
and lastly why was Alex sacked ?
My understanding is that Alex was asked to condemn the violence following a march in July. He refused to do this, for similar reasons that ginger made her impssioned posts about the latest march. Shortly afterwards Alex was sacked on some trumped up disciplinary charge relating to his activities as a Union Organiser some eight months before that.
You seem to have some blind faith that the police are acting out of altruistic motives by shooting peoplke in the back. BTW they were then seen taking the lighter out of his pockets and placing it near his hand!
You might think they are fit to be Judge, Jury and Executioner! I think that they are racist, corrupt and prejudiced in their dealings with members of the public.
BTW, how many cops have been shot in Brixton recently?
:confused:
BTW they were then seen taking the lighter out of his pockets and placing it near his hand
I've never seen this reported anywhere. Could you cite your sources, please?
And one other thing: does anyone know what windows were actually smashed? I didn't see any shops with broken windows as I walked through Brixton directly after the event.
freethepeeps
31-12-2001, 08:15
The claim about the cigarrette lighter was made openly at M4J meetings and rallys, including during the meeting with the Mayor!
I don't know what windows were smashed, but hopefully Ginger can provide more information on this!
drfranni
31-12-2001, 08:17
I watched the "riot" for a while and then, like several correspondents, walked through Brixton much later when there were a great many police on the streets but general good humour and distinct lack of broken glass. Maybe the broken windows were right down at the end, past the police station because that is where the very small crowd was - outnumbered several times by police, it appeared.
Actually I didn't mean to post about that - it is the use of the term "racism". It becomes increasingly clear to me that the goal posts have moved on this word. It is extremely rare that I am ever in the company of a "white" person who makes any remark which even the most paranoid or politically correct could claim as rascist and I am very happy about that(but din't kid myself that it has vanished, simply become less acceptable, even amongst taxi drivers!) However when I am in the company of friends from a vaguely caribean background (I mean that either they or their parents came to the UK from the caribean) I hear a great deal of racism - mostly directed at asians and africans. Although I know fewer asian people, I am told that the same applies and have certainly heard very unpleasant generalisations from asian friends. This racism has already claimed lives locally and yet it sometimes seems to be a subject too "sensitive" to broach
mobymonster
31-12-2001, 09:16
freethepeeps: BTW they were then seen taking the lighter out of his pockets and placing it near his hand!
If that is true and I doubt it, then indeed there would not seem any reason to shoot.
Sometimes when you shoot someone in the "front" they can spin round , further shots fired at almost the same time will enter the back or side. I don't have a problem about shooting an armed criminal in the back.
Surely ALL violence should be condemed or ALL violence is OK which is it ?. If Alex is happy with violence against the police then you can't complain about their violence can you ?.
You might think they are fit to be Judge, Jury and Executioner! I think that they are racist, corrupt and prejudiced in their dealings with members of the public.
But if ever you have a crime committed against you, I'll bet you won't hesitate to call them and if you think that all police are what you say you are wrong IMO.
drfranni,
So called "black on black" racism is something that I believe is covered up and not discussed as it would not fit in with the sterotype only whites are racist view.
mobymonster
moby...
its not something which is coverd up, its more the case that a lot of people from different backgrounds dont mix socaliy enough, to relise the internal politics between different ethnic groups.
[ 31 December 2001: Message edited by: bezzer ]
johnwisehammer
31-12-2001, 10:09
"But if ever you have a crime committed against you, I'll bet you won't hesitate to call them"
But that's a complete bollocks of a statement, isn't it? I chip in towards a fair, efficient and publicly accountable police service - if I get pissed off when I receive an inefficient, bigoted and self-serving police force, does that somehow invalidate my right to police service? Of course it fucking doesn't.
"If you carry a gun and commit a crime, tough shit"
Apparantly, it's also tough shit if you commit the perfectly innocent task of walking down the street while carrying a table leg or even sleeping naked in your bed at home, 'cos you still end up dead.
If all police killings are mistakes and "tragic" (as if they were some kind of predestined natural phenomena beyond the control of humans) and inevitably happen, why is that a quite disproportionate number of these "tragedies" happen to nonwhites? And if these police killings are sadly necessary and nothing to do with race, can we expect a commitment from Brian Padddick to increase the year-on-year number of white people shot to a proportionate level? I think not.
mobymonster
31-12-2001, 10:23
Apparantly, it's also tough shit if you commit the perfectly innocent task of walking down the street while carrying a table leg or even sleeping naked in your bed at home, 'cos you still end up dead.
I haven't said that have I.
mobymonster
If all police killings are accidents then obviously there is something very wrong with police firearms training which needs to be put right. A lot of police oppression is deliberate though for exmple the way certain demonstrations are handled is way over the top and aggresive.
drfranni
31-12-2001, 13:16
I've been professionally involved with a couple of deaths in police custody and it has been my impression that the police are absolutely terrified of this - it represents an total "worst case scenario" for them. Their actions are not always sensible and they do sometimes take bad decisions and are not immune to the temptation to "adjust" records - human beings, every last one of them. But the events leading up to the deaths which I have seen have always been a series of cock ups, rather than brutality or deliberate badness.
I don't suggest that this makes them acceptable, merely that young and inexperienced officers often find themselves in incredibly difficult and complex situations which get out of hand before wiser heads can intervene
Dr Franni - yeah anyone with any sense and experience of people knows racism can go on between, well, anyone really. What made me laugh about your post however was the idea of you sitting around with all your "vaguely Caribbean" mates slagging off Africans. Don't you have any vaguely non-racist, vaguely Caribbean friends?
Seperate point: This thread has degenerated to a pretty dumb level in my opinion.
drfranni
31-12-2001, 13:59
Hmm - well, I'm sorry that I am being so dumb.
Actually, my point was that racism may be endemic but is not longer seen as "acceptable" in some social groups whilst it is alive and well in others. And if you attempt to put a contrary view you are told to shut up as this is a matter you could not possibly understand, due to your skin colour. I disagree, I think racism does not require very profound "understanding"
ColinTheCopper
31-12-2001, 13:59
The thread need to degrenerate to a dumb level.... So I can understand it.
"The police took the lighter out of his pocket"
I really hope you don't believe that. Cant you see the facts for what they are without being twisted by your own hatred... Well I suppose it's better then saying the officer took it out of his own pocket.
Dr Franni - your comments made me laugh. What I thought was really dumb was other stuff. I said "separate" above but maybe it wasn't clear.
Colin - I, for one, am sceptical that the lighter was removed from Derek Bennett's pocket and placed beside him (tho open to the idea that it is possible). He shouldn't have ended up dead tho should he? The Police should have other non-fatal technologies for incapacitating people. There is the gun that fires a small bean-bag for instance. This may sound silly, but in fact delivers a punch hard enough to put you on the ground in a dazed state but it does not kill.
The worst police force in Britain is the RUC now renamed the Northern Ireland Police Serivce, this force is definitely racist against the catholic minortiy as it is 90 per cent protestant and has a long history of brutality towards the catholic minority in Ulster. A couple of years a go a catholic man was kicked to death by a loyalist gang after leaving a club while an RUC landrover was only yards yet the RUC men inside did notthing to help the man, despite passers by banging on the vehicle and shouting for them to help.
mobymonster
31-12-2001, 18:16
There is the gun that fires a small bean-bag for instance. This may sound silly, but in fact delivers a punch hard enough to put you on the ground in a dazed state but it does not kill.
nor does it always work, there are incidents of people being hit many times and not being affected enough to drop the wpn.
mobymonster
ColinTheCopper
31-12-2001, 18:52
Hattie,
I'd be happy to carry a bean bag gun, as long as all the wannabe ganstas carry then instead of the real ones....
Moby and Colin - you've missed the point. The point is that non-killing devices offer alternatives for incapacitating people. I'm not saying the Police don't need conventional guns. I'm saying there are many occasions when something else could be used instead... and lives would be saved.
I am aware that the bean bag gun doesn't always work. It's just an example. I beleive there are other alternatives to guns too. Surely they should at least be looked into.
And Colin - Derek Bennett was not a gangster, he was a traffic warden.
ColinTheCopper
01-01-2002, 21:54
Tell that to the bloke he took hostage on the Angel town and held a gun to his head when confronted by police....
Do you think the bloke thought... Oh it's okay, this geezers a traffic warden and that thing he's holding to my head, that looks like a gun, will only mildly scorch my temple if he pulls the trigger....
[ 01 January 2002: Message edited by: ColinTheCopper ]
It was a particularly realistic fake gun too (handle taped up, fingerprints etc). I'm not saying he neccessarily deserved what he got, but you go around waving a realistic looking weopon anywhere (and particularily an area with a prevalent gun culture like Brixton) and take a hostage...well what do you expect ? What would have happened if it had been a real gun, he had killed the hostage and the police had done nothing to protect that citizen ?
For some reason, I almost feel they'd have been less of an outcry.
[ 02 January 2002: Message edited by: J-B ]
sorry folks I have been away for a bit but please let me explain my much earlier post..
If you are going to go on a march described above then why bring the kids? It seems inapropriate in my opinion to take your children on a do that may well kick off...
further i feel that the police are going to feel threatened by such a march and will overreact if any bother occours..Consequently when the march rerouted to brixton police station it is naive in my opinion to expect the police to let you get there without a fight..So if you are going to go for it then perhaps leave the kids at home, get masked and tooled up and do all you can to win...looting in br9ixton town centre is a bit of a waste..and a distraction...
Happy new Year to you all..(except Colin...you go fuck yourself you pig cunt..) :)
GaryJenkins
02-01-2002, 12:06
Steelgate
Just to provide a bit of balance, one of the reasons why NIPS/RUC is 90% protestant is that catholic extremists were likely to kill catholic police and intimidate their families, unsurprisingly it made people living in Catholic areas think twice before joining. Mind you the IRA scumbags were pretty non-sectarian in deciding who to murder - around 300 police killed in 30 years.
Well, well, well (or should it be hello, hello, hello, what's all this 'ere then?)
We really thought that the MFJ march was going to be hijacked like the last one and end up with loads of shops trashed. We did not attack anyone - we just kept them from going back to the town centre because we did not want any trouble. No windows went in either - well none that were reported to us anyway.
On the reason for the march, I deeply, deeply regret that anyone should lose their life. No matter what the circumstances, no one deserves that. OK stun guns might be OK (like if the other guy has a knife) but not when the other guy has a gun. I do not know why Alex lost his job. I know nothing about that.
I can understand the real concern and suspicion all this stuff churns up with the police. I try to build confidence and reassurance and this stuff just undermines it all. There are no winners here.
If you think its useful me participating OK but if you think I'm invading your space I'll butt out! :confused:
johnwisehammer
05-01-2002, 14:43
That's funny, you would expect an Oxford graduate to have better spelling/ punctuation/ grammar skills and to be more articulate than that. :rolleyes:
freethepeeps
05-01-2002, 14:51
Lets suppose that you really are a copper, and taking into account that your writing style is a little less jarring than Colin the coppers, and that your attitude to the local populace appears a little less harsh than his, why would you want to be on these boards? You accept that your presence might be unwelcome! And maybe you understand the reasons for that! And yet you still post, so what is it about?
Is this some kind of exercise in "public consultation" ? Are you claiming the time for this as work? Are you responding as a copper or a human being? How do you view this board?Are we some kind of guinea-pigs for you?
Perhaps if you answered some of these questions, it would help us to evaluate whether we want to engage with you or not!
We really thought that the MFJ march was going to be hijacked like the last one and end up with loads of shops trashed. We did not attack anyone - we just kept them from going back to the town centre because we did not want any trouble.
We thought he might have a gun, so we shot him!
We thought he was ugly, so we kicked him and beat him up!
We thought he was a waste of space, so we smashed his head against the cell wall!
Its all so handy for coppers at the moment isnt it. They just have to "think" something might happen, and that allows them to pen people in and to deprive them of their rights and liberty for as long as they "think" it is necessary! Well, there was nothing expected for that march! And those who were involved are not likely to have improved their feelings about the police whilst the bully boys strutted their stuff on the pretence that some copper "thought" something might happen. Ihello
If you are now into the business of stopping crime before it happens, I guess we can look forward to a copper on every street corner in Brixton, can we. Including all the spots where people are regularly attacked! And where houses are regularly burgled. And where crack is openly sold on the streets!
Or is just demonstrators that really concern you at the moment. Are you out to stop crime or just to crush dissent?
We really thought that the MFJ march was going to be hijacked like the last one and end up with loads of shops trashed.
Hijacked? How can a march be hijacked? Planes are hijacked. Marches are full of autonomous people who can make their own decisions about what they want to do EXCEPT when they are surrounded by lines of riot cops - then they are corralled into smaller and smaller spaces, their friends concerned queries about what is going on can be ignored and they can be held for two and a half hours before being released without any charges ever being made.
Fuck you with your pussying around and attempts at nice words. The reason you overreacted is because you know why we hate you, and you know we're right and will win, otherwise why the over reaction to what you already knew was a small demo? Surely not because you're trying to intimidate people away from expressing their feelings?
We did not attack anyone - we just kept them from going back to the town centre because we did not want any trouble.
Bollocks. I was there. I saw it. I was thrown to the ground at one point. You DID attack us.
No windows went in either - well none that were reported to us anyway.
The mothercare windows were done. And I wonder why nobody bothered reporting them to you? Possibly because (a) Brixton police station was closed (b) nobody trusts you.
On the reason for the march, I deeply, deeply regret that anyone should lose their life. No matter what the circumstances, no one deserves that.
You sound like Tony Blair! And just as useful... You know that as a cop you are immune from facing the same fucked up justice system we do. You know that no cop has even gone to jail for any of the over 1000 killings by cops in the UK. That if you are investigated it will be by other cops.
I can understand the real concern and suspicion all this stuff churns up with the police. I try to build confidence and reassurance and this stuff just undermines it all.
You are a part of the system. You uphold the injustices every time you put on the uniform. You allow it to happen. You are the bully boy upholding your rich masters' unfair property laws in return for the occasional scrap from his table and a pat on the head. You are not trusted or treated as a human being by those same masters. We're on different sides. You, I'm afraid, are the misguided foot soldier for the enemy and therefore we hate you.
Come on Commander.......nothing has driven me more to post this message than the desire to hear your answer to the last two......
I don't beleive that this is Commander Paddick. Can you offer some proof of your identity Commander? And if you are Mr Paddick, who the hell was Colin the Cop?
freethepeeps
06-01-2002, 18:49
Colin the cop is an imposter from Inverness! See the other thread he was posting on!
;)
Please note that 'Whiskey' is using the same ISP as 'the Commander' and is quite probably Colin the Cop/Blair Peach/Phoenix etc, the useless, trolling lying bullshitter from Inverness.
What's the matter Colin - are you too scared to put your own name and identity to your posts?
(Note: ALL IP addresses are logged, time-stamped and traceable and continuing abuse of these boards will result in an official complaint to the ISPs concerned)
[ 06 January 2002: Message edited by: editor ]
Where do I start? I am here as myself. I am a police officer and a human being. These are my own personal views. I am not giving some official view. I am doing this in my own time because I want to. I think it is really important that I talk to all sorts of people from all backgrounds to make sure I have a more balanced view of life. I really want to try to move beyond all the hate and anger people feel although I understand people are expressing how they really feel. This board provides an important place where people can express themselves and I would like to express myself as well.
I have to say that I was not in charge of the policing of the march although I was there. These things are a very difficult call. It is about balancing rights. It is about balancing the rights of people who want to protest against the rights of others not to have their properties broken into and their belongings stolen. We can debate forever whether the police were justified or not. The last march in the summer was convened by the same people, involved many of the same people and followed the same route. The organisers refused to tell the Brixton Superintendent what route they planned to take as required by the law. Deja vue or reasonable cause to think their might be trouble again? Shop owners and many others in the community said the police should have known their was going to be trouble and the police should have prevented the looting. I think what the police did was within the law and reasonable. Others will disagree.
I think there are many problems with the criminal justice system from start to finish. In general I think it does more good than harm and until we can think of a new system or changes to the existing one, I have to try to make it work the best it can for everyone. I am no lapdog of my political masters. I do not say the things I say here or elsewhere to impress anyone. I say what is on my heart and it often gets me into trouble, mainly with my bosses!
I love people. I love Brixton. I want to do my best for everyone, particularly for those whose voices are not often heard. Two choices I guess. You either think this is some kind of propoganda or a genuine attempt to broaden my understanding.
By the way, one of my tutors at Oxford said that whilst I was bright, he did not think I would do very well at exams as I had difficulty expressing myself on paper. So, sorry about the spelling and punctuation but I write like I speak. Never mind the gift wrapping, look at the content!! :)
The Commander: if you are who you say you are (I'm afraid I have my serious doubts, such is the nature of the web), please mail me - from a Metropolitan Police email address - and I'm sure we could set up a proper interview here.
I am an anarchist and therefore believe their are higher "rights" than property rights. I believe that the arbitrary division of the world into pieces that can be owned and withdrawn from use by another human being serves only those who managed to obtain the bits of land before laws and titles came into being.
I believe that if such things as universal rights exist (and this is something I'm still deciding on) that they include the right to not be killed or physically harmed because of the action or inaction by another human being. And the old "do as you will but harm none" which includes a right to act freely, responsible to your own conscience.
As a policeman you do not have the freedom of your own conscience. The opposite - you are ordered to not just consider some set of laws as absolute for yourself, but to impose them on others. This is whether you personally agree with them or not. In fact your training is aimed at eradicating any thoughts that law might not be the absolute measure of what is right and wrong.
I believe we can never have laws that represent what is absolutely right and wrong. Apart from the historical evidence showing how bad laws can be (slavery, rape not existing within marriage and millions more) there is the truism that every circumstance is different and therefore only the people present can know and judge what happened.
At best laws are patched together to try and handle the complexity - for example differentiating out "battered wife syndrome" to recognise that self defence need not always be because of an immediate threat. As a software engineer I am familiar with systems where new situations are continuously handled with a quick hack - they fast turn into unmanageable unwieldy monsters forever at breaking point (MS Windows anybody?). The best thing to do is start again from scratch as they are the result of a bad initial design.
At worst, and I would say usually, they are cobbled together by politicians scared of losing their jobs by doing anything other than cater to the current whims of the Sun. It reminds me of the NF's easy response to paedophiles (oh that thread again) which is string em all up, and as we discussed before is not at all helpful. But the politicians have no more choice than we as individuals do - they must play the system or be written out of the game because were they to try and recognise the true complexity of human interaction in their policies it would require intelligence, inhuman foresight and courage.
I believe we can come together to form a better society that works better and does not impinge on human beings freedom to live in the way that our current mess of a system does. I believe in true communism - anarchy. Where all economic entities (factories, services) are run by the workers and users of the system. Where we are free from property crime. We are free to concentrate on what makes human beings better off and not what turns a profit. Where we seek to bring out the best in everyone, not assume the worst.
freethepeeps
06-01-2002, 23:10
Top post Ginger !
"Commander" - you write convincingly! Maybe you could clear up this little matter of "whiskey" who writes less well, but from the same ISP! And if you really want some form of dialogue, then consider taking up the editors offer!
I think there are many problems with the criminal justice system from start to finish. In general I think it does more good than harm and until we can think of a new system or changes to the existing one, I have to try to make it work the best it can for everyone. I am no lapdog of my political masters.
What good does the criminal justice system do? Who benefits from it? You can't just make a claim like that, without substantiating it!
And I fully agree with Ginger: If you spend your life "going along with things", taking orders, (even if you find them distasteful) then you are a lapdog!You cannot be your own man within the system! Alex Olowade has discovered this to his cost!
Shop owners and many others in the community said the police should have known their was going to be trouble and the police should have prevented the looting
So once again, we come back to this: you treat all protestors as criminals! You feel justified in detaining us, without arrest, before any crime has been committed! You oppress us! The same way as Black people have been oppressed! You stereotype us, dehumanise us and seek to neutralise us!
And then you write:
I really want to try to move beyond all the hate and anger people feel although I understand people are expressing how they really feel.
And we do not respect the police, or like them, or trust them! And we realise that they are the enemy. Their role is to protect the system at all costs! As long as they are around, they stand in the way of freedom, of liberty and of justice!
So, could there be any point in continuing with a discussion I ask myself. I know this; I would never be a cop! And I will never believe that the Met is a benign organisation! I will never grow to respect it!
Hi Guys. Sorry it takes me a while to get back to you but I am very busy in the week! Anyway...
The concept of anarchism has always appealed to me. The idea of the innate goodness of the individual that is corrupted by society or the system. It is a theoretical argument but I am not sure everyone would behave well if there were no laws and no system. I believe there are many people forced into causing harm to others by the way society operates at the moment. They would not have to behave in this way if the current system did not exist or was radically different. What am I saying here? I am saying that the way society operates at the moment, with all the injustice and discrimination, pushes people to act against their nature to damage and harm others. Eradicate all injustice and discrimination - would that stop all people damaging and harming each other - I am not sure. If there were still people who would continue to exploit and harm others, how would you stop such injustice if you had no system, no society?
ginger nuts there are certainly higher rights than property rights. The right to physical and spiritual well-being of the individual must be higher rights. Why should people have arbitrary rights over pieces of the world? Of course if you believe in the innate goodness of the individual, in the absence of 'the system' all would work to the good of everyone - each according to their ability and each according to their need. Have we not tried this? The problem is, if individuals are innately selfish, out for what is in it for them, they will only or primarily work for the good of themselves and not 'the whole'.
"Do as you will but harm none" is the principle that I try to work to, within the constraints placed upon me. I have the freedom of my own conscience to the extent of the priorities I place on what I and my officers do. Does smoking small amounts of cannabis harm anyone else other than the smoker? I do not think so. Can I, as a police officer not enforce the law and get away with it. Probably not. So I introduce a pilot scheme where we do not arrest people for cannabis in Lambeth.
I am looking at a new strap line for the police in Lambeth - and this is spooky because I thought of it before I read your latest post ginger nuts - "Don't damage my community". What does that mean? I guess you could translate it into "DO as you will but harm none." Is this dialogue influencing me or am I not miles away from the thinking of my fellow posters?
Every circumstance is different and that is why police officers have discretion to enforce the law or not in a particular situation. It has advantages and disadvantages. It is open to getting much better resolutions and it is open to abuse.
freethepeeps I think the Editor says Whisey is Colin (obviously a master of disguise!) I e-mailed Ed. from work yesterday. Ed. if you did not get it call me in the office!
What good does the criminal justice system do? Well I guess it has the potential to enforce the "do as you will but harm none" ethos. If you do harm someone else, should there not be a sanction against that person. Now I am not saying that tradtional punishments like prison are the right or the most effective sanctions, but the criminal justice system has identified those who have unjustifiably harmed others and 'punished' them for that.
Of course whether you are talking about philosophies or religions or legal systems, they are all the products of, or have been interfered with, by human beings (even if the Bible is the Word of God, it is interpreted by human beings, etc.) I think all human beings are fallible and whatever you are talking about, if there are humans involved, it is flawed. The criminal jusice system is flawed.
I am trying to do the best I can in the job I do within the system that currently exists. I guess that puts me in the other camp to those who want to overthrow 'the system'. I do not treat all of anything as criminals - all protestors, all black people, all straight people (!) I try to treat each individual as an individual. Do not treat all police officers as lapdogs of a corrupt capitalist system. Dogs sometimes turn on their owners. They are notoriously unpredictable and they can end up working against the people that keep them! Kept dog is OK, I can live with that. Lapdog - in your dreams!
I admire anyone who passionately believes in their cause and I will defend their right to promote that cause provided they "harm none".
Well, I've ignored ColinTheCop's posts, as he's clearly a twat, but this Commander guy is making the effort and for that we must be grateful.
He seems to have a proactive approach - regardless of whether he's a cop or not, and so I think we could give him the space to let him argue his point or it'll all get a bit one sided.
And my own opinion of gun carrying in Brixton or anywhere else is simple - if you go out onto the streets armed, don't you dare come crying when you get shot.
The nutter with a cigarette lighter that was shot dead?
No pity whatsoever. Even if he was mentally ill.
I'd rather the guy was laid out cold on a mortuary slab where he can do no harm than left to terrorise people and encourage others to go out in public with a gun, seemingly immune to the laws in this country.
I fucking hate your board personality PK. I don't think you are as harsh in real life, but the stuff about Derek Bennett is really inhumane.
Yes, Derek Bennett, or anyone waving around what appeared to be a gun, on the streets of Brixton is asking for big trouble, and risks being shot dead. I know that. But the whole point is that it would have been better if he could have been stopped without being killed. (I have suggested methods for this elsewhere on these boards). There is also the issue of some Police appearing to (or in reality) be more trigger happy when it comes to black men. This also links to the disproportionate number of deaths of black men in Police custody.
Derek Bennett may not have been a very plesant charater (I don't know) but that doesn't mean he should have ended up dead. He was also the cousin of a friend and neighbour of mine that I have a great deal of respect for.
Perhaps you'd like to be introduced so you can say to his face how glad you are that his cousin is dead. :mad:
[ 12 January 2002: Message edited by: hatboy ]
About The Commander - yeah the above is all good, but I beleive it's not him. A clever impersonation maybe.
Commander - will you please contact the editor (Mike) from a Metropolitan Police email address or offer some other conclusive proof of your authenticity.
I have some stuff I want to talk to you about, but until we all know for sure that you are genuine I won't be reading yor posts. Thanks.
One more thing. I am not as right-on in real life as some people might think I appear here, but I do beleive strongly in truth and natural justice. I also know a wide variety of people in Brixton and care strongly about the area.
I e-mailed Ed. from work yesterday. Ed. if you did not get it call me in the office!
I have repeatedly asked you to conclusively identify yourself by posting from a verifiable Met Police email address, yet you have failed to do so.
I've absolutely no intention of wasting my time on the phone asI can't think of any reason why your mail shouldn't have come through,
But to make it even easier for you, I've set up a special mailbox, just for you!
Feel free to mail me at this address:
MetPolice@urban75.com
Anything coming from a non-Met Police address will be ignored or reposted here.
Ho hum. Another day and *still* no email from the (ahem) 'Commander'.
Could it be because - surely not! - that he's nothing more than another sad alter ego of that pitiful loser, Colin the Cop?
You decide!
Dear Ed.
I am having trouble e-mailing from work. But I am posting this from work - I usually only post at weekends from home! Is that good enough for you?
I am very angry at being accused of being Colin the Cop. An apology would make me feel better!
So is he Colin the saddo or Brian the weird?? I think we should be told... :)
johnwisehammer
14-01-2002, 13:34
If you're having trouble with email at work, perhaps you could give someone in Bob Youldon's department at DoI a call? I'm sure they'd be only too happy to help (unless of course they're too busy losing videotapes, audiotapes, CCTV footage, files, etc).
Seeing as this mail has indeed come from a Metropolitan Police address (at last!), that goes some way to establishing that you are who you say you are - in which I unreservedly withdraw my comments about you being anything to do with the idiotic 'Colin The Cop'.
As a policemen, you're no doubt aware that it is prudent not to take things at face value and this becomes especially apparent in cyberspace, where all manner of idiots can trot out unverifiable nonsense and lies (witness Colin The Cop's recent discgraceful comments on Brixton Online (now thankfully deleted)
Although your approach to this board has been a little unorthodox so far, I would be happy to set up something where you could respond to points raised by Brixton posters - perhaps in the form of a dedicated and moderated forum?
Naturally, I would have to meet you face to face before proceeding, and I would also value the feedback from regulars on these boards...
[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: editor ]
as long as he is who he says he is then just let him post here like everyone else...
I suggest he spends some time reading the various threads concerning heroin and possible tactics to alleviate the problems caused by addiction...
But otherwise I welcome him like any other poster here..
Mike check him out beyond doubt eh? :)
Mike check him out beyond doubt eh?Indeed.
A Met Police posting address doesn't guarantee it's the same person and I shall remain extremely sceptical until it's proved beyond doubt!
johnwisehammer
14-01-2002, 14:21
Well, fuck me ragged!
SSHH john, thats obscene words and behaviour! ;)
freethepeeps
14-01-2002, 14:36
Mike check him out beyond doubt eh?
No-one ever asked me if I freed any peeps.
No-one ever checked if Panda Killer does what it says on the can!
No-one asked Addict to prove that he has a substance problem!
The Commander has now proved that he has access to a Met computer, and from his writing it appears that he knows something about policing. He also suggests he is Paddick, and if he is not, opens himself up to all sorts of potential difficulties!
Is that enough tho?
Commander,
How do we know that you won't try and track us down if you don't like our posts?
Under what circumstances would you see yourself demanding IP addresses from the editor?
What do you hope to gain from a dialogue on these boards?
Will you address the points made in my last post about preventing crime!
I await your response with bated breath!
freethepeeps
johnwisehammer
14-01-2002, 16:07
And you can try being all fluffy about things but are you going to refuse to send your officers to act illegally and undemocratically on events like May Day like you did last year? I think not!
William of Walworth
14-01-2002, 16:09
I remain suspicious ... is he actually a cop at all? He might just be a civilian employee of the Police with access to one of their computers as has been suggested.
It is quite amusing though..Will people self regulate their posts knowing we have a rozzer on board..? If it indeed is Paddick well he does seem to be one of the more reasonable policemen but no doubt he would do the usual perjury to defend his more knuckle head collegues.... :cool:
This is really weird. On the one hand I want to be taken seriously so I can have a decent debate with you guys. I have never had so much trouble trying to prove who I am before but I guess I cannot show my warrant card on the internet! On the other hand I want to be completely open about my own personal views. If I do prove who I am beyond any doubt, who is to say that the more controversial things I might be tempted to say might not appear in the Press? There are real dangers in this for me as well!
TopCat, this is like the comments I get at parties. "You'll have to watch what you drink now Brian's here". That record is a bit worn out.
freethepeeps take a look at the South London Press Friday quoting me at the Police Consultative Group meeting. I said whilst I did not agree with what Alex said most of the time, I would defend his right to say it. This is not the thought police. This is about finding out what people really think. I am here in my private capacity, as a thinking human being who wants to check out what he does and what he thinks against other people. In the position I am in, if my thinking is wrong I could do a lot of people a disservice.
I cannot see me ever asking the editor for IP addresses and I am sure the editor will never give them to me. You asked me before what I want out of these boards. I want to talk to people from very different backgrounds who would never otherwise meet with me or talk to me. People with radically different ideas (or that is what we might think) who can help me check out my own frame of reference and my own ideas. If you have senior police officers who refuse to listen to alternative views, we are on course for some very unhealthy situations. (I cannot see what you mean about 'crime prevention' but that is probably me being dumb!)
Ed. - you should have my work e-mail by now - lets meet! Unless of course you want to keep your readers in suspense!
Ok so I will stop the cheap jibes here...
I am curious that there are police who are interested in the views of those who recieve the service, i have the enduring impression that most of the met live outside of the area that they police with consequensial lack of empathy for the service users and a lack of responsibility for their actions.
could you not encourage your officers to live in lambeth or have all the police flats been sold now? :)
johnwisehammer
15-01-2002, 09:59
"I cannot see me ever asking the editor for IP addresses and I am sure the editor will never give them to me."
You've never heard of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, then?
Spud Murphy 2.0
15-01-2002, 11:09
Well, I'm not too bothered myself. It's not like the Old Bill are going to come round your work and drag you away somewhere, never to be heard of again. This isn't Turkey.
If Mr Paddick wants to debate issues with people here, that's fair enough. Unfortunately, I can't say anything about Brixton cos I don't live there.
TopCat has made a good point tho, and that is, wherever possible, police should live in the communities they work in. If you are only getting recruits from places like Gravesend and then putting them to work somewhere like Brixton, they are going to have a *lot* to learn. The best way they can get to understand what people in an area are really like is to live there.
it would also encourage better behaviour from the police if they l9ived in the communities they policed...When I was a 10 year old the cops once stopped us thinking we were theiving which was crap and we told them so..their response? to stamp on my instep to the extent I could not get a shoe on for two days.. :mad:
if the cop lived on my estate he would never of done such an act as I would of made the git's life a misery..Further I would probably been better behaved if I knew the local cop and respected him... :)
William of Walworth
15-01-2002, 11:56
I'm starting to wonder? if my suspicions might be misplaced on this :confused: I'll wait for Mike to decide!
johnwisehammer
15-01-2002, 12:30
"If you are only getting recruits from places like Gravesend and then putting them to work somewhere like Brixton, they are going to have a *lot* to learn."
Apparantly, unlike the Met which recruits on a rolling basis, a lot of the regional police forces only recruit a small number of people every couple of years. When a yorkie or taff punter turns up at their local recruitment office (or whatever), they get told to sign up in London, serve a couple of years and then transfer back to the village. Hence the number of disinterested "foreigners" in the London police force that can't seem to deal with anyone that's not white and English.
er John they can be quite obnoxious to white english peeps too! :)
Briefly - to the Commander. If it is you Mr Paddick, as a Brixton resident who's followed your work and attitudes I applaud you. I also like what appear to be sincere, reasonable posts on here. I think that it could be a good idea for you to stick around for awhile.
However, in view of the fact that there have been afew malicious people posting up crap lately under multiple idents I remain deeply suspicious of your true identity.
Mmmm...Well I find that so far Mr Paddick has broken some interesting ground in his career..I think it is good that there is a decent role model for gay cops to find strength through and further his policy on cannabis was risky for him but enlightned which is also good.
I do object to the calm reasonable tone to his posts howevere and also the disgusting way he is prepared to take concepts on board that would usually get you a kicking from some of his subordinates...How am I expected to maintain a virulent malicious attitude towards the police if he continues?
next we will be haveing a U75 benefit do to raise cash for the metropolitan police orphans fund...
;)
johnwisehammer
15-01-2002, 19:03
Ooh, I know, TC - but the assault you get off them in that case is an equal opportunity kicking, innit?
freethepeeps
15-01-2002, 19:11
Commander
This is the question which i am interested in your answer to! Sorry about the confusion, it was 3 posts ago!
If you are now into the business of stopping crime before it happens, I guess we can look forward to a copper on every street corner in Brixton, can we. Including all the spots where people are regularly attacked! And where houses are regularly burgled. And where crack is openly sold on the streets!
Or is just demonstrators that really concern you at the moment. Are you out to stop crime or just to crush dissent?
I think that those people at officer.com sometimes visit our boards. They knew that Fat Mike was from here when he posted on there a few months back. Some of the views on officer.com are a bit extremist.
William of Walworth
16-01-2002, 06:35
I don't **think** The Commander seems to be in that mould at all Derek, most of them at that site are out and out barking and he appears to come across as reasonable.
Ooh i have not tried Officer.com..i'm off for a mooch about their site...
William of Walworth
16-01-2002, 09:23
Have fun .. call yourself Top Criminal ... :D :p
sonicdancer
16-01-2002, 10:47
Quick question ..
Is "The Commander" Brian Paddick or not ??
Can someone please confirm...I see "The Commander" has posted Brian's email address openly on another thread in the Brixton bit. But anyone could do that, and I wouldnt have thought that it would be a done thing from someone in such a position of authority. surely if he wanted to be contacted it would be by way of PM with legitimate reason for contact being explained not this way round ??
sceptical sonic
:rolleyes:
Christian
I confess! It is me. You win the prize for being the first person to
reply!!
Thanks for taking up the challenge.
Brian Paddick
aka 'The Commander'
he is who he says he is! Ooh er...
As our head honcho does not want to play anymore I have no choice. If you believe that only the real Commander has access to the e-mail Brian.Paddick@met.police.uk, you can find out if it is me by e-mailing.
For those sad people who think this is a trap to find out who your are, it adds an element of risk for you thrill seekers out there!
I am moving on Friday and I really thought I was moving into Lambeth - turns out I am 100 yards over the border. Near enough to take a personal interest in my work though, would you not agree? It would be good if more cops lived locally but we have sold off almost all our police property in the area.
freethepeeps we tried putting a cop on every street corner in 1981 - Brixtonians did not like that. I am adopting a new policy (you heard it here first) to put more visible cops into the worst crime areas in Lambeth. I have no interest in crushing dissent - I would have to beat myself up regularly if that was the game I was in! Protest to your hearts content wherever and whenever you want but '...harm none.' It's a difficult judgement...blah, blah as before...!
we tried putting a cop on every street corner in 1981 - Brixtonians did not like that Err it was a bit more erm assertive than that was it not? i remember Swamp in all it's glory, please do not go down this route again, if woolworths gets smashed up again as a result where oh where am I to buy my pick n mix?
freethepeeps
16-01-2002, 11:04
Commander
I tried emailing you, and it came back as undeliverable - possibly cos I use hotmail.
Maybe you could email me on freethepeep@hotmail.com as I would like to know that you are genuine!
FTP
freethepeeps
16-01-2002, 11:46
TopCat says you're for real, so I'll accept that.
freethepeeps we tried putting a cop on every street corner in 1981 - Brixtonians did not like that. I am adopting a new policy (you heard it here first) to put more visible cops into the worst crime areas in Lambeth. I have no interest in crushing dissent - I would have to beat myself up regularly if that was the game I was in! Protest to your hearts content wherever and whenever you want but '...harm none.' It's a difficult judgement...blah, blah as before...!
Blah, Blah, Blah just doesn't do it for me!
The question is about what the police really stand for!
How is it that they feel vindicated in "preventing crime" at protests, but appear to have no interest in preventing the crime that hurts people all the time?
It is becoming common practice to incarcerate protestors (and unfortunate passers by) in kettles - and yet I cannot imagine a street being cordoned off and everyone being held against their will because a mugging has taken place or
might take place.
You say that the "people" didn't like it when Brixton was swamped in 1981 - however, is it not true that there are many who don't like the way that demonstrations are swamped in 2002!
This is an attack on the right to protest, and if that right is diminished, then the "democracy" that we are told we have, and that we killed Afghani babies for, is totally discredited!
Are you happy to be part of a system that attacks protest, that robs protestors of their human rights because some officer thinks a crime might be committed?
:confused:
I don't think much will be achieved here in discussion with The Commander if everyone tys to make him own all the behaviour and policys of the police in general. He is hardly in a position to defend all their "practices" over the years and is obviously trying to change some aspects of how they work..
Oh and look NVP, I haven't called him a git once! ;)
freethepeeps
16-01-2002, 12:59
If that was directed at me TopCat, I am confused! The "Commander" posted on this thread, and as far as I can work it out, the last post is part of a discussion that we had already started, and I am not asking him to own anything, I am asking him what he, as a human being thinks.
I am also genuinely interested in his view on the "right" to protest, and how the police handle that "right".
But, as he has come on these boards, and outed himself as a policemen, it would be no surprise if people raised their "police" related matters with him, would it?
:confused:
RubyToogood
16-01-2002, 13:20
Perhaps a quick phone call to Brian Paddick's office would sort this out...
By the way, freethepeeps, I think you've spelt your email address wrong there?
[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: RubyToogood ]
No it was not really directed at you, it was a folorn hope that we might get a good bit of mileage out of discussing issues...i reckon we could easily scare off The Commander if we berate him too much.Then again he must be mad of stern stuff so maybe not. I am not used to any sort of consultation with the police so it's all a bit unusual.. No offence eh? :)
freethepeeps
16-01-2002, 13:32
None taken! ;)
Sorry freethepeeps, no disrespect what I meant by blah, blah was what I previously posted:
'These things are a very difficult call. It is about balancing rights. It is about balancing the rights of people who want to protest against the rights of others not to have their properties broken into and their belongings stolen. We can debate forever whether the police were justified or not. The last march in the summer was convened by the same people, involved many of the same people and followed the same route. The organisers refused to tell the Brixton Superintendent what route they planned to take as required by the law. Deja vue or reasonable cause to think their might be trouble again? Shop owners and many others in the community said the police should have known their was going to be trouble and the police should have prevented the looting. I think what the police did was within the law and reasonable. Others will disagree.'
No disrespect to any of you guys but I have the police in Lambeth to run and I am moving home this weekend so I am not around for a while. I am not deserting you, promise and please say what you think - that's what it's all about isn't it. Just make usre there is some fact and logic mixed up with the emotion. Good talking to you.
Brian
johnwisehammer
16-01-2002, 16:10
Personally, if someone's gone far enough to fake that email address and TC says it's kosher, I'm prepared to be taken in by it and accept the geezer as genuine. (I've got to say, I'm fucking gobsmacked).
Perhaps we could have a new - possibly moderated - thread for a fresh discussion?
William of Walworth
16-01-2002, 16:28
I agree (about the gobsmackedness and the moderated board).
Respect to the man for making the effort! :)
Let's hope it's genuine, I know how easy it is to fake 'em. Any news yet Mike ?
TinyCrendon
17-01-2002, 12:11
.
Also I thought it was brilliantly subtle racism making ganja `legal` in Brixton too. Amazingly effective in creating tension. Which great mind thought that up ? Campbell, Blunkett...you ? All it has done is connect black and poor people with drugs and create resentment (amongst pot smokers and others the majority of whom are white and not londoners) that Brixton and Black people are getting `preferential` soft treatment. The BNP couldnt have done any better.
What a load of bollox. :) I know of noone who thinks like this.Justify this (IMO) load of tosh please. :confused:
Coo, I dunno Brixton Leads the way and Adam gets upset. Brixton is multicultural, NOT a poor black borough!
All the stoners I know think that the brixton trial was brilliant and were/are confident that it was/is a prelude to a more liberal enforcement of the misuse of drugs act..further it's true! What with Blunketts plans to make it a class c this is happening... :)
johnwisehammer
17-01-2002, 13:10
I disagree that multiculturalism is a matter of them and us - there was no unitary culture for immigrants to be absorbed into and nor can there be. Culture isn't just living in the same place, obviously, and there's no particular limit to the number that can coexist, subsume or overlap.
Exactly John..beautifully put..
:)
I to want to disagree with the idea that loosening the cannabis laws in Brixton was "brilliantly subtle racism". That is not how it appeared from inside the area. It was/is a practical and good idea.
I also believe that Brian Paddick is not a racist.
William of Walworth
17-01-2002, 16:07
On the ganja : I think Adam has been smoking too much of the special "Paranoia" strain ... how about the least complicated explanation? That the initiative had little to do with govt., but came from the Police on the ground who in Brixton hadn't enough bods on he beat to hassle petty dope smokers all day long when they were supposed to be concentrating on crimes that were really crimes.
How about the still-open possibilty that if this initiative works **to the Police's saisfaction** (see below) it will be extended London-wide? And then country wide? Many forces in many places beyond Brixton **already** turn a blind eye to public smoking (so long as people don't blow smoke from a foot long jay into a copper's face) to formalise the Brixton experiment everywhere (and I **do** see this happening) will remove or at least much reduce scope for Police inconsistency.
Any hassle petty dope possessors/smokers get in London these days is either because they are stupidly obvious about it (it's a piece of piss to avoid attention) or MORE SINISTERLY I'd agree, because the Police are hassling them for something else.
I am not being co-opted (Copted?) by the Police, I will continue to hold a healthy distance from and suspicion of them. And I would thoroughly agree that the kind of hasslement and physical attacks Adam has had from Police in and out of the UK is OUTRAGEOUS.
But on ganja, the Police by force of circumstance are largely ahead of Government thinking. Lets take advantage of their pragmatism.
I'm sure Mr Paddick may have something to say ... ;)
Considering Im a journalist I find it odd the OB didnt give me the same sort of attention when I was at the Evening Standard or Loaded. Why is that ?
Presumably, because you weren't covering the same issues that you are now and weren't at demo's where police brutality is common, even to those non-journalists among us.
Have you actually been to Brixton, Adam ? Do you know what you're talking about ? It was a good idea to run the pilot scheme there because more people were getting nicked there for personal possession of cannabis than anywhere else. It would have been a bit silly to run it in Knightsbridge, which is not renowed for its street life and its open drug dealing.
Also I thought it was brilliantly subtle racism making ganja `legal` in Brixton too. Amazingly effective in creating tension. Which great mind thought that up ? Campbell, Blunkett...you ? All it has done is connect black and poor people with drugs and create resentment (amongst pot smokers and others the majority of whom are white and not londoners) that Brixton and Black people are getting `preferential` soft treatment. The BNP couldnt have done any better.
Actually, it was in the borough Lambeth - but never let the facts get in the way of a good rant, eh ? Lambeth has a diverse mix of people, income's, housing stock etc. As for the second bit about racism, which others here have discredited admirably; is this not more a reflection of your own thinking ?
[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: J-B ]
TinyCrendon
18-01-2002, 09:10
No I dont agree with you.
I know plenty of people who just think its Brixton getting preferential treatment. They dont, as you might realise, come from the same political strand as me. Or most of you lot.
In Brixton/Lambeth it may well be seen as a positive thing. Outside London however the connection between Brixton/black people/poor people and drugs is one made over and over again by the right over the years. This is no different, just a liberal version of the same. Why for example not pick a different are for this `pilot scheme`...why Brixton/Lambeth. Why not Gateshead or Leamington Spa, afater all they have dope smokers too.
As for `multiculturalism` this is the sort of state initiative that would have been useful in the 1950s but not now.
There's plenty of other writing on the subject from people like AFA and Spiked and the like. I, for example, dont beleive that a bloke whos Mum and Dad came from India has a different `culture` to me. I think the differences are miniscule. The underlying `culture` of any country should involve security, food, water, heating, accountability and other general underlying factors about how people live their lives. The fact that one bloke may have eaten more goat curry and rice and someone might have eaten chips and someone else might have eaten blinitz more or less as they grew up is a toatal irrelevancy. Religion, music, dress also...
Every time some liberal comes on the TV and starts on about `multiculturalism` my mates who arent white just despair...
But what about me then? Im a half Yid. Where do I come in the multicultural racial classification table. Near-white? Do I need special help ? Eat less bagels ? Should I be more English ? More Jewish ?
Do you get my drift ? Do you think there are no questions to be answered here ? I think we on this board can do better than just go bollocks/you smoke too much weed etc...
Separating out cultures is devisive, as we have seen.
And if you disagree with me can you hold on to the abuse I dont think ive ever abused any of you except in jest. If you can convince me Im wrong, as youve seen in the past, I go `ok, youre right I was wrong` do I not ? Ok?
also: yes i know, and like, Brixton...the journalism question was an obvious rhetorical one aimed at the OB chap...
JW: "I disagree that multiculturalism is a matter of them and us - there was no unitary culture for immigrants to be absorbed into and nor can there be. Culture isn't just living in the same place, obviously, and there's no particular limit to the number that can coexist, subsume or overlap."
Exactly. But the non-unitary Britain that you speak of has had immigration for hundereds of years. The more recent immigrants to the UK have also been here for many years (lets say 40-20). So why bring it up now? Why point it out now ? Since this whole `initiative` things have got worse not better. To me the `multicultural` notion is merely a smokescreen for the straight up and down racism that exists, especially within the state (police, army, judiciary etc etc).
What it has done is exacerbate areas of public life who were far less racist than the state by making (mainly white) people think that black people, asian people, jewish people, assylum seekers etc etc are now getting a `better deal` than they are.
phew its a long one...
[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: AdamP ]
William of Walworth
18-01-2002, 09:47
Just one thing ... I disagree with the idea that music is irrelevant. I see your point about surface differences being unimportant between different parts of the single human race, compared to common interests uniting us, but music to me has been a very important force for breaking down barriers .. or is that only amongst the liberal Guardian reading wankers?
I **am** cautious about using the term "multiculturalism" because it does have cliched connotations as does "vibrant diverse community" blah blah ... but there's nothing wrong with the CONCEPT/IDEAL. The argument is over how best to achieve it.
I still think you've got it wrong about the ganja thing. It was the right thing to do as a GATEWAY :D to softening/removing restrictions elsewhere.
TinyCrendon
18-01-2002, 10:26
W.O.W - Ok, I hope the ganja laws are changed everywhere v quick. As I remember when Blunky annaounced cat c status it was supposed to come into force in mid-Jan, I dont know when its going to happen though. But I still dont like the association I feel was made for home counties/rural UK.
I hope I made the point about why i find the term/political concept `mc` divisive. But OF COURSE I want a multi-racial,(also mutli-ethnic) society. In fact I'd say we already have a multi-racial society, its here, its not going away and everyone who doesnt like it hard fucking luck. I love it. <dances about middle fingers to nazis tongue out>
As a brief generalisation I would say that all peeps, (wherever they/their parents/gparents came from), want is to be accepted as an individual with their `race` `ethnicity` etc not brought into question, whether you do good OR bad. EG: If I kick you on a Sunday morning playing footy and you call me a `cunt` thats fine. If you call me a `Yid cunt` i'll (try and) bash you.
From that starting point people who then go on to proclaim their `superiority` because of their whiteness/blackness/religous affiliations etc can be criticised.
Huey Newton of the Panthers for example hated the Nation of Islam because he saw them as "cultural nationalists". (see Sieze The Time by Bobby Seale)
Tony Blair preaches `mc-ism` but then cements segregation in schools (see cultural nationalism above) as if that kind of `mc-ism` is helpful. (of course im also against Catholic/Jewish/C of E exclusive schools too).
Check out these articles: AND NO I DONT SUBSCRIBE TO THE TOTALITY OF THESE SITES VIEWS the articles are interesting though.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/5602/main.html
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000002D35E.htm
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/392/after_bradford.html
http://www.redaction.org/race_and_class/contents.html
I'll let others more eloquent debate this. I can see that the current political spin on "multicultural Britain", could feed right into the hands of the right wing - emphasising difference rather than human similarity.
I don't really believe that this situation has been deliberately engineered.
And I am certain that the Lambeth experiment with cannabis was a practical measure originating locally. I feel sure there is no hidden aganda here. If some people outside the area see Lambeth/Brixton in terms of drugs/black/poor in that one-dimensional way then they must be pretty unthinking.
I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think you are over-intellectualising or something Adam. I'm not against you and I'm still listening but I don't think "yes this guy's been there, he knows what's what". Sorry.
Edited to say this was put up before I saw the above post which seem abit more straight talking.
[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: hatboy ]
johnwisehammer
18-01-2002, 11:02
I just don't understand what you're saying: multiculturalism in the UK began (really) with Roy Jenkins in the 60s, talking about an alternative to the crushing and demoralising process of assimilation, which was the alternative (as pursued in France, unsuccessfully and to the chagrin of cultural minorities there).
I don't really understand what you mean when you say culture isn't constituted by diet, religion, dress, music and so on, when these are exactly the things through which cultural identity creates and recreates itself. If you strip all that away, all we are is consumers - which I agree is pretty much homogenous across Europe (in fact, just about everywhere West of Jerusalem).
I don't really understand why you pursue the BNP's idea that accepting that cultures other than your own makes you less of your culture, or why you think there's a racial classification table for culture (also a bizarre BNP line, confusing culture and race), or why you think it restricts your identity choices. Multiculturalism doesn't mean you have to eat more or fewer bagels, it means that the bagel shop can be opposite the Turkish bakery.
As a side note, I don't think that you can separate multiculturalism from what was happening in the UK's white populations at the time - the cracks in the English Protestant (Francophone) upper class dominance of the UK were beginning to crack, the Catholics in NI were kicking off, the Scots were getting slightly restless. IMO, multiculturalism is as much an acknowledgement of the cultural diversity of the aboriginal British populations as much as the more recent immigrants.
I don't quite understand why you think it's a coverup for prejudice in civil institutions either. I basically just don't understand what you're saying!
TinyCrendon
18-01-2002, 11:34
jw - quickly
"I just don't understand what you're saying: multiculturalism in the UK began (really) with Roy Jenkins in the 60s, talking about an alternative to the crushing and demoralising process of assimilation, which was the alternative (as pursued in France, unsuccessfully and to the chagrin of cultural minorities there)."
*I was referring to the Tony Blair version not to the 60s version.*
I don't really understand what you mean when you say culture isn't constituted by diet, religion, dress, music and so on, when these are exactly the things through which cultural identity creates and recreates itself. If you strip all that away, all we are is consumers - which I agree is pretty much homogenous across Europe (in fact, just about everywhere West of Jerusalem).
*I would say that we would be `citizens` rather than consumers. Equal in every respect. *
I don't really understand why you pursue the BNP's idea...
*Er...I dont *
...that accepting that cultures other than your own makes you less of your culture...
* i dont at all *
...or why you think there's a racial classification table for culture (also a bizarre BNP line, confusing culture and race), or why you think it restricts your identity choices. Multiculturalism doesn't mean you have to eat more or fewer bagels, it means that the bagel shop can be opposite the Turkish bakery.
* Isnt that multiethnic ? Food isnt `culture` *
As a side note, I don't think that you can separate multiculturalism from what was happening in the UK's white populations at the time - the cracks in the English Protestant (Francophone) upper class dominance of the UK were beginning to crack, the Catholics in NI were kicking off, the Scots were getting slightly restless. IMO, multiculturalism is as much an acknowledgement of the cultural diversity of the aboriginal British populations as much as the more recent immigrants.
* Im not sure about this, what is `aboriginal` ? Sure Irish, Scotish people and so on should be respected *
I don't quite understand why you think it's a coverup for prejudice in civil institutions either.
* because it places the emphasis on `accepting` our multi racial society that is already here on ordinary people. it fails to address the fact that the vast majority HAVE accepted it as opposed to the state which has not *
HATboy
"I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think you are over-intellectualising or something Adam."
* I hope not I was just responding to all the arguments in one post *
"I'm not against you and I'm still listening but I don't think "yes this guy's been there, he knows what's what". Sorry."
No probs...have a look at those articles I pointed out, what do you think of them ?
johnwisehammer
18-01-2002, 12:32
I don't think that multiculturalism weakens citizenship (formal, distinct from community - or should be), I think it strengthens it. I certainly have no desire to be "just a citizen" like everyone else in the EU at the expense of my identity groups! Citizenship is something that's organised/administered by the state, while culture and state are mutually constitutive with a very tetchy relationship.
Food isn't culture?
Surely you're not trying to ignore the role food plays in society and culture? The way it's served, the dishes and ingredients chosen, the timing are all deeply significant. Christmas cakes, Pimm's, hot cross buns, cucumber sandwiches, haggis, those big Italian cakes - if it wasn't cultural, then there would be no reason why those things above were served at specific times of year or associated with specific nationalities/identity groups. In fact, if food wasn't cultural, then the rice and peas/Jamaican and bagels/Jewish associations wouldn't make sense at all.
TinyCrendon
18-01-2002, 13:19
.
Cautious Fred
18-01-2002, 18:09
I notice that copper's scarpered.
Hi Guys! I did say I that I would not be around for a while as I have just moved home...oh and I do have a police service to run.
The cannabis pilot was my idea for a number of reasons. A cop at Brixton was arrested for seizing cannabis and then throwing it away instead of doing things officially (more to it than that but that is what the other cops thought). His colleagues rightly said they were going to arrest everyone in the future rather than dealing with it informally as they did not want to get nicked. I did not want them to do that. Second, ever since I was a sergeant here in 1982, cannabis has never been a big deal for local people. I did not think there would be much opposition. The police have got more important things to do in Lambeth that local people really are concerned about. I wanted an official short-cut way of dealing with cannabis so we did not waste too much time on what local think is a minor issue. Nothing to do with race just practicalities. Why Lambeth? Because I am the Borough Commander for Lambeth! Simple, no hidden agendas, just common sense (well I thought so!)
Multiculturalism - yuck! What I want is this. I'm gay. I do not want to be accepted because I act straight (well most of the time!). I want people to know I am gay and to accept me for what I am. I want black and Asian and whatever minority people to be accepted for who and what they are in the same way. Not because they act or behave or try to look like the majority but because people are broad minded enought to say "s/he's different, that's OK with me". Not very intellectual, but hey, what do you expect from a plod!! (If you want to get familiar, I try to get everyone to call me Brian).
William of Walworth
23-01-2002, 15:45
Do you have any opinion about Fred Broughton's evidence to the Commons Home Affairs Committee (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4341234,00.html), Commander?
His views seem to be somewhat at variance with yours ...
johnwisehammer
23-01-2002, 16:26
Commander - why are you bringing homosexuality into a discussion about multiculturalism?
"Not because they act or behave or try to look like the majority but because people are broad minded enought to say "s/he's different, that's OK with me"."
Why "yuck"? That's exactly what multiculturalism is - it's assimilation where everybody has to act the same no matter what their heritage/ ethnicity/ race/ nationality is.
I imagine the Commander brought homosexuality into a discussion on multiculturalism because he is (as am I) in that minority, albeit not an ethnic one. Some gay guys (not all) have a greater understanding of what it is like to be outside the majority population and to experience prejudice. It may not be the same as racial prejudice, but there are similarities.
Secondly, why shouldn't he mention it?
"Big up the battyman babylon!", that's what I say. Well actually that's not how I speak atall, I just thought that was funny.
I think it's great that you are contributing here Brian, and I understand that you get the thumbs up from Jo Negrini and Darcus Howe for starters. I do hope you're not gonna get undermined by more reactionary members of the Met? I fear you will get moved on for rocking the boat.
So, when you coming round for a spliff mate?
That's exactly what multiculturalism is - it's assimilation where everybody has to act the same no matter what their heritage/ ethnicity/ race/ nationality is.
Er if thats multiculturisem then you can keep it... I am perfectly happy that our society is made up of different types of people with different ways of doing things. i don't demand that people conform to some mythical english culture vive le difference...
johnwisehammer
24-01-2002, 08:08
Hatboy - he might well be gay - but that's not a culture in the proper sense of the word that multiculturalism emerges from. It's a subculture - you're still English, Pakistani, Nigerian or whatever.
TC - bollocks, I've not explained it very well, have I? I'm saying that what The Commander is describing as multiculturalism is *actually* assimilation. They're two different things: assimilation is where everybody acts the same no matter what (like in France when they went through a period of pretending everybody's ancestors were the Gauls, even if you were an Algerian or a Alsatian) while multiculturalism is where everybody gets to do their own thing in the private sphere and everybody has to respect each other. I think assimilation is shit and multiculturalism is great.
Hatboy - he might well be gay - but that's not a culture in the proper sense of the word that multiculturalism emerges from. It's a subculture - you're still English, Pakistani, Nigerian or whatever.
That's just ethnic cultures, but Commander and HB are right you can't call homosexuality a sub culture if it spans all other cultures, it becomes it's own culture in its own right.
Multiculturalism (for me, anyway) is about all cultures, be it sexual, sex, age, ethnic, class, whatever coexisting along side and tollerating each other within the same space.
"Vivre le Difference!"
Multiculturalism (for me, anyway) is about all cultures, be it sexual, sex, age, ethnic, class, whatever coexisting along side and tollerating each other within the same space.
"Vivre le Difference!"
But for me there are limits to tolerance..I won't respect those who practise "female circumcision" for instance and I have a thinly veiled contempt for religous types especially those whose religion is a cover for the oppression of women.
TinyCrendon
24-01-2002, 12:09
.
The commander did send me an e-mail from a met police address that belongs to Mr Paddick so that checks out..Plus he seems to ring true no?
Thanks for the back-up Mach V. I personally don't really think about whether being gay is a sub-culture or a culture. But it pisses me off when other people get too theoretical about what is my everyday life. I know you are quite an intellectual person JW, but I don't need you to tell me whether being gay is part of a sub-culture or a culture. I know what it's like to be gay. Unless you are gay you don't.
Which brings me to what I wanted to say, which is that above Mr Paddick excuses himself for not being an intellectual - "what do you expect from a plod?" - Irrelevant. Brian, you seem to exhibit a fair amount of empathy and humanity. If you continue to do that, it doesn't matter that you don't see yourself as an intellectual.
Sometimes so-called "intellectuals" are quite out-of-touch with people anyway.
johnwisehammer
24-01-2002, 13:34
Hatboy: I'm not really sure what your point is - one of the many points of discussion on this thread is exactly what multiculturalism is (its roots and origin, and how the concept has evolved), which in turn asks questions about what culture is. Yes, it's a discussion about words and political concepts at one level.
Culture (like community) is a word that gets chucked about until it loses its meaning and doesn't become helpful any more. If you ask me (which no-one did but then if everybody waited to be asked, this would be a very quiet place), culture is a more all-embracing notion than sexuality and the things associated with that: it's also a lot of fuzzy and imprecise things like religion, diet, rituals on life events, (folk/ collective) history, knowledge and belief systems and anything else you care to shake a sociological shitty stick at that's produced and reproduced by the state, family and society. In my opinion, not least for the precise reason that homosexuality is present across all cultures while markers of gayness differ through them, "gay" or even "UK gay" is not a distinct culture, it's a subculture or some other form of social organisation. It's quite possible to be a multiculturalist and a raving homophobe (though I've never knowingly met anyone who is). You do see why being Roma and being gay are qualitatively different, don't you?
If you don't like that opinion - fine, I'm not self-important enough to believe it makes the slightest difference in the grand scheme of things what I think and what you think about what I think - but to just effectively say "this discussion is shit and I'm not going to participate in it but even if I did, I'd be right" is just childish. If you think the discussion is irrelevant, ignore it - if you think your disagreement/participation is important - then get stuck in by all means - explain what you mean.
Personally, I couldn't give a fuck if a copper is supposed to be an intellectual or not (ooh, shades of Adrian Mole here) - someone who stops his officers beating the crap out of people, enforces the law and doesn't suppress democratic process might be a good start. If The Commander does start ripping on pretty important bits of political policy in Britain like multiculturalism, then it would help if knew what the fuck he was talking about - not least because unlike me (who also doesn't necessarily know what the fuck he's talking about), the way he translates this into his professional attitudes have a big impact on society.
[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: JohnW ]
Umm...... so we've established that gayness isn't a "culture" in *exactly* the same sense in which Indian-ness is a "culture". So? :confused:
I think the parallels between sexual (or musical) sub-cultures and national cultures are actually very striking. It's just that the latter tend to be stronger, and to affect peoples' lives in a greater variety of ways, as you point out.
However! I think this not a difference of kind, but only a difference of degree. The sheer volume of shared ideas and references you get from belonging to a national group may be greater than the volume associated with belonging to a sexual group... but a 2nd generation Indian will have less Indian ideas/references than his parents, and one who is 2nd generation but with only one Indian parent even less. So the degree to which this person participates in "Indian culture" may be less than a scene queen's participation in "gay culture". I don't see a valid distinction between the two. :p
johnwisehammer
24-01-2002, 16:31
Fair enough, nothing wrong with that. It's interesting to hear you explain your opinion and your opinion of mine.
TinyCrendon
24-01-2002, 17:13
.
There aren't any! Well alright, a handful I suspect.
I didn't say, or effectively say "this discussion is shit and I'm not going to participate in it but even if I did, I'd be right".
I just thought I'd spotted this discussion disappearing up it's own, that's all. Guess I'm not in a "let's have a heated debate" mood today.
:p
[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: hatboy ]
TinyCrendon
28-01-2002, 09:28
.