Mail on Sunday in "Paddick is a have a go hero" shocker!

[editor]

The Mail on Sunday has run a whole page reprinting Paddick's contributions here with a columnist (the excellent Suzanne Moore) penning a very supportive piece elsewhere in the paper, entitled, "I'd dress the Met in drag if it made our streets safer".

The piece goes on to say that Brian is:

"more of a man than his lily-livered detractors will ever be. Unlike them he knows what it is like to patrol the mean streets of our capital.

Unlike them, he listens, he thinks, he responds.

That may be a crime in the eyes of the self appointed thought police, but in my book he is a have-a-go hero".

The same columnist then goes on to call Kate Moss "dumb" for wearing fur (nice one!) while on page 59 there's a two page anti-hunting spread with the headline, "Landowners who back hunting are the real countryside wreckers'.

I never thought I'd find myself saying this of a Mail journalist, but respect to those writers!

[nomoney]

looks like a brake-through for some radical agendas in media. Let's wait for a MayDay... would they be still as opened?

[agricola]

regretfully the news of the world has not followed this enlightened line:

(page 27):

COPS GAY THAI-MS

"top cop brian paddick, dubbed commander crackpot, has been relaxing in thailand with his boyfriend as a storm raged over his wierd views..." i am sure you know the rest

the highlight of the article is apparently that a club in soho has traces of cocaine on the toilet lids...........omg

ps: i buy it solely for the football coverage

[Epico]

Aside from Suzanne Moore, i really don't like the Daily Mail.

[William of Walworth]

To reinforce your point, it was the Mail on Sunday that Suzanne Moore wrote in. The Daily Mail would never print anything so sensible.

[Ema Petrova]

As the person who spent the whole of Thursday downloading the admirable threads concerning Brian and Co and in the interests of the accuracy which concerns us all, could I humbly suggest that "Daily Mail" be changed to "Mail on Sunday."

It was a sympathetic piece and goodness me we might have earned some credit (for once). But come on lads, get your act together and at least get the title right.

I went through millions of crap messages to get to the heart of it! Only an Essex girl. Sighs: You can't get the staff can you?

Regards,
Ema

[Ema Petrova]

I love the idea of being a "Junior Member"....that's really thrilling. I must look out my gymslip.
I had a temporary crush on the PE teacher but I suspect that is not relevant here.

Ema

[santeria]

Has the Mail on Sunday got a totally different editorial team :confused: Indeed I usual spend some parts of my shifts as a psyche health support worker reading the mail because its free on the ward and its good to know what the enemy is thinking. But I was rather bemused by the liberal stance of the paper no doubt a passing thing.

[Ema Petrova]

Originally posted by santeria
Has the Mail on Sunday got a totally different editorial team :confused: Indeed I usual spend some parts of my shifts as a psyche health support worker reading the mail because its free on the ward and its good to know what the enemy is thinking. But I was rather bemused by the liberal stance of the paper no doubt a passing thing.

Yes a) the Mail on Sunday has a completely different editorial team and
b) what the hell is a psyche health support worker? Sounds like a story to me. Explain please. Full details please. If you don't want to discuss it publicly EmaPetroval@aol.com will be fine.

Ema

[editor]

I was convinced that I was heading for a 'rich anarchist toff slums in Brixton council flat' piece of stitch-up nonsense when the interviewer from the Mail on Sunday rang me up.

Thankfully, the article was fine, so pass on my apologies to the journalist for doubting him!

[Ema Petrova]

As a matter of interest (just for sometime in the future) are you a rich anarchist toff who lives in a council flat? It would be incredibly helpful if you could let me know.

Ema

[Ema Petrova]

Journo seems a poorly paid pain in the a**** (don't know what tbe format is) and Hatboy seems rather nice. I can see why (more or less) Brian felt he loved him. I have an open mind (no jokes about Essex girls please) but I do have serious doubts about the income level of Journo. But Hatboy......:):).......he seems an okay guy to me. But we Essex girls have little or no judgment as you all know.

I hope they will happy together. I suspect that when Brian returns from his hols there will not be that much happiness about.

And Oi Journo.......when you have finished listening to yourself.......do you actually get anything IN the paper?

Just curious.

Ema

[santeria]

Ema Petrova

You do ask a lot of questions. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. However you seem to give very few details out about yourself even to the point of giving a none work (Presumably the Mail on Sunday) E-mail out to gain info. So are you a Junior Hack on your paper as I am presently doing a Psychology Essay on Junior Hacks and would love to Know for future reference.

Yours in Good Faith

Andy

[editor]

Ema: Who is this 'Oi Journo' you rather rudely refer to?

[Ema Petrova]

Originally posted by santeria
Ema Petrova

You do ask a lot of questions. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. However you seem to give very few details out about yourself even to the point of giving a none work (Presumably the Mail on Sunday) E-mail out to gain info. So are you a Junior Hack on your paper as I am presently doing a Psychology Essay on Junior Hacks and would love to Know for future reference.

Yours in Good Faith

Andy

Send it to me..and I will correct the literals.

Ema

[Ema Petrova]

Me rude? Sometimes yes, but that is in the privacy of my own home.

I am talking about the lovely man who got involved in a dialogue with Brian and who told us:

a) that he knew CHL
b that he was wonderful
c) That he was a "journo" and Brian was wasting his time
d) do you recognise anyone posting regularly?
d) If not, wrong forum, sorry boys.

Ema
PS: Just a hunch....but if journo knew a story if it got up, tickled his anus and then bit him on the arse....I should be somewhat surprised.

If anus is a banned word please delete.

:):) Ema

[santeria]

This is a web chat forum not an english lesson. You still haven't answered my question about whether your a junior hack or not. But lets leave this small dialogue and aside to the main conversation here as it may bore the others.

Oh and I ve sent you a pm about what a psyche health support worker is.

Andy

[santeria]

Ema if your looking for a story shouldn't you be in one of the forums that is'nt about a Mail on Sunday Columnist's article. You know one that has a real story or are you visiting those parts of the site incognito. By the way I think you need to work out how not to do repeat postings as its getting rather bemusing now.

[Ema Petrova]

Originally posted by santeria
This is a web chat forum not an english lesson. You still haven't answered my question about whether your a junior hack or not. But lets leave this small dialogue and aside to the main conversation here as it may bore the others.

Oh and I ve sent you a pm about what a psyche health support worker is.

Andy

No. 40 years in the trade...who smells a halfwit who does not earn a minium of £75,000 a year...who does not speak five languages..who does not have two degrees (preferably three) or am I in the wrong here?

Speak.....Italian......French.....Spanish....Swahili...Guderjati. . Say something to me.
Or shut up! Don't bother with the psyche health worker bit unless you get a minimum of £75,000 a year.

Kind regards

Ellen.

PS: And if you don't.....I blame the parents.

[Ema Petrova]

Originally posted by santeria
Ema if your looking for a story shouldn't you be in one of the forums that is'nt about a Mail on Sunday Columnist's article. You know one that has a real story or are you visiting those parts of the site incognito. By the way I think you need to work out how not to do repeat postings as its getting rather bemusing now.


Sorry about the repeat postings. Terribly sorry. My kick out of Sunday was £2000...how you doing. On that basis, frankly, I can live with my eff ups (don't wish to offend).......just wish to make cash. You have some other "higher" motive? You ought to telll me.

Love,
Ema

[Ema Petrova]

Originally posted by santeria
Ema if your looking for a story shouldn't you be in one of the forums that is'nt about a Mail on Sunday Columnist's article. You know one that has a real story or are you visiting those parts of the site incognito. By the way I think you need to work out how not to do repeat postings as its getting rather bemusing now.

I think I am in the right forum. I made a rather large sum of money out of the chats. I am very sorry about the repeat postings but the money is awfully good. Please forgive me. I trust Santeria is on a minium of £75,000 otherwise his views may not count.

Ema

[Johnny Canuck2]

Mr. Editor, not to be rude, but are you gunning for a job in the 'straight' media, by any chance?

[Judge]

This thread is bizarre :confused:

What does it matter how much money everyone earns?

[editor]

Johnny: I am not 'gunning' for any job in any media, straight or otherwise, although I have in the past been happy to oblige requests to write features for the likes of the Telegraph, Independent and New Statesman.

I already have a book published by 'straight' media and may well be working on another soon - all commissioned work, so no 'touting' was called for.

And Ema: boasting about your earnings really is exceptionally crass and I doubt it's particularly impressing anyone - certainly not me.

I judge an article on its quality, originality, honesty and content, not on how loudly the author boasts of their earnings.

The main article in the Mail seemed to consist almost entirely of quotes selectively reproduced, without permission, from these bulletin boards. Hardly the stuff to boast of.

Edited to add: Ema, I really don't take kindly to receiving threats (or 'words of advice') in my PM box, thanks.

[William of Walworth]

At the risk of appearing to grovel to His Honchoness, I have to agree on both scores.

Ema you have gone down a rapid downhll trajectory in mine and no doubt others' estimation since you joined this thread ... boasting about money .. WTF??? :mad:

And Johnny, your occasional insisence on waging a petty war on Mike's integrity demeans you rather than him, cos he generally has an answer that completely invalidates your peculiarly agenda-laden questions.

[Mrs Magpie]

Regarding what is acceptable for the Editor to do or not to do, the words 'bunch of moaning ingrates' spring to mind. His graft and undoubted talent pays for us to be here, and he doesn't do the 'My Gaff My Rules stuff' either. You could always go somewhere else and spend your whole time killing pop-up adverts.

[Mrs Magpie]

By the way, did you know that ema is the dutch for bucket?

[Ema Petrova]

I was just trying to make the point that most of the criticism on forums such as these is of journalistic accuracy/inaccuracy, some of it justified, some of it not justified. It would have been nicer if the original posting had got the newspaper title correct first time round. If we'd done it the other way round I imagine there would have been many more postings about it.

I'm not used to sensitive Editors but it's nice to see and if he feels hurt I apologise. I didn't know Ema meant bucket in Dutch but I've noted it now.

I vaguely remember that it's very unlucky to see one magpie on it's own. Is there another one of you?

One serious question: does anyone honestly think anything is going to change in Brixton (or anywhere else with similar probs) as a result of all this debate? I am too old and cynical to make a proper judgment but much of it looked like "words" to me.

For some reason I was reminded of our current government. We can all talk a reasonable game (hopefully) but that is not the same as changing things.

Regards,
Ema.

[editor]

Ema: pointlessly boasting about your income and sending threatening mails to me probably isn't the best way to start a considered debate with the residents of Brixton about their future policing.

But I'm curious: which article are you claiming to have written?

PS I'm sure you'll be delighted to learn I have corrected the title of the thread to read, 'Mail on Sunday', even if the first article clearly stated just that.
PPS The reason I was so 'sensitive' was that I've never received such an aggressive email from a professional journalist before, nor have I ever had one posting here bragging about their wages.

That's if you are a professional journalist, of course. I'm starting to have my doubts.

[Ema Petrova]

Thank you for changing the title. You might understand that when a publication gets praise on a forum such as this for an acceptable "attitude" it is somewhat galling for the praise to be then attributed to a different publication.

I merely did the research which involved reading all the relevant messages.

As to money....well, I was probably wrong to raise it on a forum such as this and I can't see on reflection how I can relate it to Brixton except in the most general way.

The poor quality of (some) policing alluded to in the previous messages is down to the money they are paid. It has been my expererience in life, with one or two exceptions, that you more or less get what you pay for.

Brian is a good example. He is paid enough to think..most of them are not. Most people, I believe, join the police (rather like the Army etc) because they like organisations that do the thinking for them. It's an easy way out and if there is a problem you can hide behind the corporate rules, the corporate identity. Of course there are exceptions as Brian pointed out but they are so rare as to be newsworthy.

There are many definitions of "newsworthy" but three of the most useful are: 1) Ordinary people doing extraordinary things
2) Extraordinary people doing ordinary things
3) Something that someone would rather you did not know about.

As regards the police they are mostly ill-educated but people who simply like the authority that their employment gives to them. I know many police officers who cannot string two words together: who cannot write a statement without the most basic spelling errors; whose punctuation is non existent and frankly who can not express themselves. The last statement I had to give involved a Detective Constable who was so close to illiteracy that in the end I gave up and wrote the statement for him.

This would not matter much personally if it were not for the fact that these are people whose evidence in court can be crucial to the conviction of someone else and, by the same token, can be the difference between an innocent person being convicted and a guilty person escaping the law.

The most interesting thing to me is to wonder what awaits the Commander upon his return. They can't fire him outright because, among other things, they are petrified of being seen as anti-gay. But my bet is he will either have to shut up and/or he will find himself moved: probably not immediately to avoid accusations of persecution but in time he will not be at Lambeth.

Whether, as he himself wrote, he ends up counting "paper clips" will be interesting to see.

I did not intend to upset you with my personal "rants" but I do seriously wonder whether all the debate is actually going to make a jot of difference. It seems to me that the people on here are the "observers" of life: unfortunately they can rarely change things.

They may know what needs to be done but they don't have the power to do it. Brian may be correctly perceived as a shaft of light but I doubt there will be any others. I imagine that in five years time the situation in CHL and other places like it will be precisely as it is now, hopefully not worse but who knows that?

I am not qualified to say whether Brian's methods would work but what I can say without fear of much contradiction is that there are few others in the Met (or elsewhere in Britain for that matter) even prepared to be imaginative. Imagination is not a requirement for being a police officer and I do not see that changing.

Through all of this debate I constantly find myself thinking that it is people "talking a good game". We have a government who run their business in that way but as we are all seeing (and some predicted) it is only talking that they can do.

I can't get into a debate about Brixton/Lambeth specifics because I don't know enough about it. In general terms, however, I am highly sceptical that anything is going to change.

Pay your police officer £50,000 a year minimum - make a degree essential, languages - encourage imagination and alternative solutions and you might have a chance. And before anyone says: yes, we are temporarily back to money.

You get what you pay for. If the money was right you would get bright, intelligent people joining the police service and using that intelligence to seek and find alternative solutions to many, many problems. Indeed, that might be the attraction for them: the challenge of alternative solutions.

You would get people with enough brains to "bend" the rules when occasion demanded and enough brains to enforce them when the occasion demanded and - very importantly - enough brains to know the difference.

Now you just get thick oiks who, as mentioned, can often hardly string two words together. If you pay your nurses £50,000 a year minimum you would get a better standard of service in the NHS and somewhat less of a recruitment problem.

Someone asked WTF has money to do with it. I suspect it has absolutely everything to do with it.

I hope that Brian comes back to your forum but I very much doubt he will.

My personal view, which is just that and counts for nothing, is that on matters of law and order (as with education and transport) we have gone far too far for any of it to be altered now. This is a country in steady, inexorable decline and nothing that I or anyone else say or do is going to save it from that.

The "chances" if they existed were perhaps 30/40 years ago. They were not taken then and it is too late now. The whole thing is spiralling out of control and will continue to do so.

We have an ineffectual government whose only skill is "spin" and "smoke and mirrors". We do not have a creditable opposition. That said I am not any longer sure that any government is capable of reversing the decline of this country: maybe that is just how things happen.

I do not see any future for this country at all, economically, politically or socially. The economics will come adrift within the next decade, perhaps the next five years. I think we are already adrift in the other two categories.

It is good to debate such matters but the sad fact is that none of us are capable of changing any of it. We - and the generations that preceded us - have left it far too late.

The only question to me is to wonder how long it will take for the decline to be completed and to wonder how painful it will be in the process.

Ema

[Mrs Magpie]

The penny drops! You pay loads of dosh and you get the best! Now I know why Railtrack and Enron are such resounding successes!

[Drive Like Jehu]

I do not see any future for this country at all, economically, politically or socially. The economics will come adrift within the next decade, perhaps the next five years. I think we are already adrift in the other two categories.

It is good to debate such matters but the sad fact is that none of us are capable of changing any of it. We - and the generations that preceded us - have left it far too late.

The only question to me is to wonder how long it will take for the decline to be completed and to wonder how painful it will be in the process.



My God, what a bleak perspective you have.

Would you care to expand on your reasons for being so pessimistic?

[editor]

"Someone asked WTF has money to do with it. I suspect it has absolutely everything to do with it."

Seeing as the poster was asking what your wages for researching the article had to do with the subject in hand, I suspect it has absolutely nothing to do with it.

And seeing as you were only the researcher for the (unspecified) piece, how might you have 'ripped me out and taken me to the cleaners'? And whatever for? You'd never spoken to me in your life.

And yes, I am still pissed off by your threatening mail. I assume you stand by your words, so may I reproduce it in full here?

[nick]

LOL at Mrs Magpie's top answer

Associated Newspapers pride themselves in investing heavily in their product - this includes the wages of their journalists who are probably the highest paid in the industry. Whether that impacts upon the quality of the prioduct is for you to decide ;). But it might help to explain where Ema's cash = quality argument comes from (sorry if I am misinterpreting your stance Ema)

Yes Santaria, the editorial teams of Daily Mail, Mail on Sunday and Evening Standard are completely separate. There is a well established rivalry between the titles and they will happily scoop or spike each other's stories and poach staff.

Ema - if you do work at Northcliffe House please could you phone 555 and ask the helpdesk to explain to you how to stop the double postings ta.

[Bookere]

Just a few points Ema,

Pay your police officer £50,000 a year minimum - make a degree essential, languages - encourage imagination and alternative solutions and you might have a chance. And before anyone says: yes, we are temporarily back to money.

Where the hell is all this money going to come from, I'm sure you're not going to vote for a government who demands 75% of this enourmous salary you boast about.

I can't get into a debate about Brixton/Lambeth specifics because I don't know enough about it. In general terms, however, I am highly sceptical that anything is going to change.

Well things do change, and generally (not always) they change for the better. 20 years ago we had riots in Brixton caused by a heavy handed police policy towards the local community. I think in many ways things have moved on a long way from then, although they still have a long way to go.

I do not see any future for this country at all, economically, politically or socially. The economics will come adrift within the next decade, perhaps the next five years. I think we are already adrift in the other two categories.

In which parts of the world do you see a future? I'm not sure I can share your scepticism of this country, unless of course you'd like to see us return to the days of having an Empire.

[TopCat]

has anyone got a link to this article?

[TinyCrendon]

Just seen this thread...were you reffering to me "Eva" or Ellen as you posted earlier. The insulting comments about "oi journo" or however you put it.

Funny stuff...made me laugh anyway.

Firstly use your real name like I do, put your email down like I do. And you've been in the business 40 years ? (sheesh, too long) And you still do research for other people, after that amount of time? Hmmm....and you dont like people talking about the drug problem because they can't instantaneously do something about it. Then you write a huge diatribe slagging off policemen...

Why not put your office number up here then so we can talk ? There are plenty of other journalists on this site who aren't so frightened about leaving their real names here either...Ive pointed out this thread to them.

And as regulars to the site know I was at Associated for around six years. Still do work for em sometimes, have pals there still...just been on the phone this morning to em in fact.

But if thats a real journo I will, once again, dance with my cat in an outrageous fashion. Real name and email please or I wont reply...


And Mike: put the mail up. Let's see it.

[editor]

Topcat: there were two articles in the paper and I'm still not sure which one Ema was involved in (or maybe it was both?).

The main article was, more or less, a page-full of selective cut and paste quotes directly off these boards under the heading,
"The bizarre thoughts of the gay police chief who finds anarchy attractive'.

(Note: Paddick actually said, "the concept of anarchism has always appealed to me", not "I find anarchy attractive").

The other article was a well written analysis by Suzanne Moore, which rightly pointed out that his sexuality wasn't what the issue - the problems of drugs and policing in Brixton was.

Unfortunately, it seems that the Mail/MOS aren't quite up to speed with technology and haven't got a website, so I can't post up a link to the articles.

[Ema Petrova]

Originally posted by Drive Like Jehu


My God, what a bleak perspective you have.

Would you care to expand on your reasons for being so pessimistic?

Yes, it may merely be pessimism.

If you just look at the basics surely there is cause for concern. We have a very poor educational system starved of investment and direction for four decades or more; ditto, transport; ditto health service; ditto manufacturing industry.

None of us are going to change any of that and neither is any government of whatever hue. I believe it is beyond repair and that it is far too late in all of those fields and IF I am correct where will that take us?

It's only what I think.




Ema

[Carasek]

I think you need a change of perspective, Ema. Having recently travelled around south east asia, I was surprised to find myself grateful for the standard of Health/Transport/Education back at home. Much of this is relative.

Anyway, you are terribly pessimistic - perhaps something of a pre-requisite in your profession, but a little sad nonetheless. Rarely is anything beyond hope - the fact that you feel this way is perhaps indicative of growing too old, too quickly.

The problems are not insurmountable, though I tend to share some of your concerns that most of the current politicians of every party are somewhat bereft of solutions. Anyway, keep up the rantings, Ema - it passes time admirably.

[Drive Like Jehu]

Originally posted by Ema Petrova


If you just look at the basics surely there is cause for concern. We have a very poor educational system starved of investment and direction for four decades or more; ditto, transport; ditto health service; ditto manufacturing industry.



I think you'll find a lot of people here who share that view, or at agree that education, transport and the health service require more investment.

Hmmmmmm.........

What's the best way to fund it?

Oh, and welcome to the boards.

[Ema Petrova]

Originally posted by Bookere
Just a few points Ema,



Where the hell is all this money going to come from, I'm sure you're not going to vote for a government who demands 75% of this enourmous salary you boast about.



Well things do change, and generally (not always) they change for the better. 20 years ago we had riots in Brixton caused by a heavy handed police policy towards the local community. I think in many ways things have moved on a long way from then, although they still have a long way to go.



In which parts of the world do you see a future? I'm not sure I can share your scepticism of this country, unless of course you'd like to see us return to the days of having an Empire.



I believe there is plenty of money in this country to pay such salaries. Most of it goes on employing large numbers of people in government to do nothing worthwhile at all. The biggest growth industry in England is bureaucracy. As an amusing example, from December 2003 all horses and ponies will have to have "passports". The government have decided that additionally all of them will be numbered. That should keep an army of civil servants going: I foresee whole new departments.

Departments like Environment, Transport and the Regions, Culture, the former MAFF, the Ministry of Defence, the Home Office haemorrhage money by the minute. They all do so because there is no economic control over any of it and virtually no accountability worth that description. In most of these cases we are talking many millions, not hundreds of thousands.

We live in an age where government departments spend hundreds of thousands on designing logo's, on hiring "special advisers" (even better paid than me pro rata per days worked) instead of putting the money where it matters: at the grass roots of the key services everyone depends upon.

How on earth did we manage 30 years ago without NHS Trusts and an administration which now amounts to one manager for each hospital bed? You could make a modest start, probably, by sacking 90 per cent of them and dividing their salaries among the nurses. Hospitals used to run without this bureaucracy. There was a manager on non-clinical matters and a Matron (s) on the medical side. This year the government have set aside £4m to meet expected NHS negligence claims - £40m over the past decade.

History shows that once you have created a monolith like that it can not be dissembled easily.

Brixton has not been repeated as you say. But we've had Bradford and Oldham and elsewhere and no doubt there will be more. The generally poor standard of education is bound to lead to racial tension because so many people are not bright enough to think about the matter logically and properly.

Surely the key things for people are health and education. How have they improved over the past decade? What signs do you see that improvement is on the way?

Instead of trying to educate people - which would solve half the problems outlined on this forum - we now try to stand in their way. We charge students for learning, we impoverish them before they even start. Ireland decided it was counter-productive to charge fees for university after years of doing so. They dropped their charges just as we introduced ours. We have now introduced a whole generation who will START their working life in debt and I certainly know a few young people who decided they could not afford to go to university although their results would indicate they were good material.

When you look at world history it seems to show that each geographical area or country has it's moment. In the 15th century, Spain and Portugal predominated in many fields, joined by England. Our "golden age" if it was such was in the 18th century when we created the Empire.

We did many wonderful things and, as with all nations, many quite atrocious things as well. We certainly cannot go back to it: I just believe that was "our time" and that things have now moved on and it will not be our time again for many, many centuries.

I imagine America will gain even greater strength but who, for example, can predict what the role of China and Asia will be in say one hundred years? Enormous population, enormous resources, mostly still untapped. Russia, I believe, has the world's largest resource of oil and minerals, 80 per cent or more of it still untapped.

India has yet to develop properly although Bangladesh has now overtaken America in IT skills and technology and we are hiring their people in because we do not have people in this country with the required skills. In the last six months, the government granted work permits to more than 10,000 IT experts from India and Bangladesh because the skills required were not available among our own population.

I do not see that as a healthy sign and neither do I see any government with the will and determination to change it, least of all one who wants to effectively charge young people for learning that type of skill.

For a country to flourish and grow, it needs to be able to find skill among it's own populace, to be as self sufficient as possible whatever the ethnic mix. There is no long term future in "buying in" so far as I can see.

I imagine in time that China, Asia, India will be the predominant regions of the world plus America which is so large economically that it is virtually it's own world and is usually little affected by what is happening elsewhere.

I pay and have paid a lot of money in tax. My resentment is that, increasingly, it goes in tiers of bureaucracy which do not help any of us in the things we most need.

I see nothing to indicate that is going to change. People die on a bloodstained hospital trolley while someone upstairs works as a "Team Leader" producing yet another "Best Practice" report. Tell me there is a will to change that and I'll stop being so pessimistic.

I am not a political animal in any way at all. I am suspicious of all politicians, whatever their party. I do firmly believe that people who CAN pay for things should do so leaving the state to find the money for those who cannot pay. I don't know what that makes me but I think it is more just.

Of course a country needs to be administered but the present culture is wasting billions a year, at least some of which could be used to perhaps make a difference to the problems people have talked about.

There is the money, I believe, but not the will to change things.

Ema

[mach v]

Ema:

too much text. care to summarise for those (like me) with less time on their hands? I'm not understanding your motivation in posting here, either. Are you a Lambeth resident or is your link the one of researcher for the MoS?

is a summary of your last few posts "Life's shit and then you die"? Cheer up, you should get out more.:)

[Carasek]

Ema, I agree with much of what you say, but surely nearly all of this is pretty recent? The obvious exception is the NHS, which has been treated abominably for at least 20 years, leading to endemic problems that will take many years of investment, and new structures, to bring it up to an acceptable standard.

However, many of the other issues you raise are measures brought in by hook or by crook by this Government - with a "special advisor" round every corner. The financial waste, and dangerous threat to democracy are obvious, but these are not permanent, insurmountable problems. Of course, this administration will not change things for the better and reduce the red-tape (and all those who administer said tape), but one day we will not have this lot in power. Of course I'm not saying that the Tories offer much better, but something has to be done. Hmmm - I'm making myself depressed now!

The fact remains, though, that many of the issues you highlight are relatively recent developments, and as such are not yet an all-pervasive cancer. Many backbenchers are revolting, in both senses of the word, and they recognise that they may form a significant "alter-opposition" at the next election and beyond. Thatcher changed a lot in her time, Blair will do likewise, but there's always the next generation. Your pessimism harks of having given up - you may be a realist, but sometimes reality comes back to kick you in the teeth when you least expect it.

[TopCat]

Mike, post up the pm here...Privacy isues never stopped you when you and me were having a little spat!

[TopCat]

Oh and ema..Guy Zitter likes to read the posts here..

[editor]

In almost all cases, private messages should remain just that, but seeing as Ema's comments seemed aimed at the whole u75 community as well as me personally, I think she should have no problem in me reproducing them here for everyone to 'enjoy'.

So do I have your permission, Ema? Or do you wish to retract and apologise for some of your comments?

[William of Walworth]

Blimey, cliffhanger .. I'm back to this thread tomorrow!!

[reluctantly leaves]

[TinyCrendon]

Cmaaahhhhnnn Mikey, lets getit orrrrrrrrrnnn !

<gathers schoolyard reprobates around him>

Show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show !!!

[Carasek]

And yes, I am still pissed off by your threatening mail. I assume you stand by your words, so may I reproduce it in full here? [/B]

I believe that Ema has been given fair warning that unless she withdrew previous comment, her email would be aired. Go on, you know you want to! :D :D

[Mrs Magpie]

mmmmm Ema is strangely quiet or is she busy writing another turgid tome?...obviously frustrated hack very significantly stuck for 40 years as a lowly researcher for the tabloids ho hum. Strange she hasn't worked that one out and gone for another career, The frustration in her every word is actually full of bathos.

[Carasek]

Reading her diatribe fills me with pathos, Mrs Magpie.

Bring on the email transcript!

[Mrs Magpie]

was it 40 years she has been a researcher? She isn't exactly interesting to read, and I went and watched a bit of paint drying for a bit for some light relief, hope I got that 40 years right, but her words seem strangely blurred and more meaningless with every sentence.

[Drive Like Jehu]

Originally posted by Ema Petrova


I do firmly believe that people who CAN pay for things should do so leaving the state to find the money for those who cannot pay.



Which option do you think is the fairer?

Increased direct taxation based on income, and everyone gets the same standard of health care / education?

Or allowing people to choose to pay directly for a 'higher' level of care, and spending the money saved on the rest of the population? (assuming this would actually happen).

[TinyCrendon]

Here is section 4 of the PCC Code. No reason.

4 *Harassment
i) Journalists and photographers must neither obtain nor seek to obtain information or pictures through intimidation, harassment or persistent pursuit

ii) They must not photograph individuals in private places (as defined by the note to clause 3) without their consent; must not persist in telephoning, questioning, pursuing or photographing individuals after having been asked to desist; must not remain on their property after having been asked to leave and must not follow them.

iii) Editors must ensure that those working for them comply with these requirements and must not publish material from other sources which does not meet these requirements.


Anyway...back to the playground...show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show show.

[Mrs Magpie]

I've had a really horrible day and she has set herself up as such an easy target. Do I feel like a shit for slagging her off and pointing out that Ema means bucket? No actually, I think it's mildly amusing and it's cheered up my day a smidge. Also I am aged and in my time have paid loads of tax and have probably paid for her education. I feel horribly cheated.

[wildwildlifer]

Originally posted by Ema Petrova


No. 40 years in the trade...who smells a halfwit who does not earn a minium of £75,000 a year...who does not speak five languages..who does not have two degrees (preferably three) or am I in the wrong here?

Speak.....Italian......French.....Spanish....Swahili...Guderjati. . Say something to me.
Or shut up! Don't bother with the psyche health worker bit unless you get a minimum of £75,000 a year.

Kind regards

Ellen.

PS: And if you don't.....I blame the parents.
I noticed our self-styled Essex Girl who was very coy about her claimed involvement with a previous smear attempt, browsing the new Mail On Sunday thread, doubtless smirking with satisfaction. As yet she has not commented.
Perhaps she's decided we're all half-wits who earn less than 75,000 pounds a year, and do not speak 5 languages, including a new one on me , called Guderjati!

[limeynick]

Originally posted by Ema Petrova
As regards the police they are mostly ill-educated but people who simply like the authority that their employment gives to them.



Err, if you're still browsing these boards u can shove that comment up your arse sideways. I'm in the process of applying for the police, not because I want to become a state-sanctioned bovver-boy, as u seem to suggest, but because I would like to play a constructive role within my community. I can string sentences together perfectly well thank-you very much and, as this seems to be a pre-requisite for general worthiness in ur eyes, have two degrees. Given my recent experiences talking to police officers in an effort to find out more about the job, I think your comments are unfounded and extremely insulting.

[crash12bandit]

Ema.. I think your an irritating, selfsatisfying, over paid, over estimated, runt. I hope you go away. It appears that your infinate wisdom and high aspirations, leave a lot to be desired. You have infuriated me with your piontless drivel. Your subordiation of thoes who post on this site is remarkable, your attitude towards thoes who cannot find the means to execute the intentions they hold true to their hearts it aborant. I detest the manner in which you generalise points that you clearly know nothing about.

I don't like you. - it appears we have a new Derek!:mad:

Oh Mike... can we have a slap Ema ???? Please????!!:D

edited to add... *head slumpped*.. I do agree with you on the beurocracy bit tho.

[editor]

Just a note: all Ema Petrova's postings here have been archived - including the highly offensive PM she sent to me.

Once again I ask her to either defend those comments - either here or by PM - otherwise I will be obliged to repost them for all to see...

You call, Ema.

[al]

yeah - and when I see 'em - there'll be trouble!!! ;)

damnit mike - now I look really silly! For everyone else - Mike originally posted ".... for al to see." - and me being the wag that I am thought it would be amusing to pick up on the minor typo as indication that Mike would be allowing only me to see this PM. Only it doesn't make sense anymore - ah well, I'll just bow out of this one and mumble to myself in the corner...

[Another Number]

Ema Wrote - "As regards the police they are mostly ill-educated but people who simply like the authority that their employment gives to them."

Ello, Ello, Ello ... whats going on here then?


Oh a Journalistic type making a sweeping statement - how rare!!

It would be nice, if you as a reseacher (Yeah sure you are!), made some reasonable efforts to look for evidence to back up your claims. After all, you are a researcher - ain't you?

As for your Salary being so high, do you really feel that you are worthy of this amount. Not the Police Officer who gets spat at, abused, assaulted regulary. If the salary is so low, why do they do it?

Individually all will have an answer to give. Most of them wish to help others, help the community and make the streets safer.

Ema, for what reason do you do you job, are you motivated by money only, it certainly does not seem that you are motivated by "finding the Truth". You are a poor example of a human being.

[crash12bandit]

Come on then Ema.. you filthy Essex slag .... oh oh sorry was that a generalisation.. oh I am so sorry!! Lets have it.. Have you and courage in your convictions, or are you just a loud mouth twat?

[harry's afro hut]

hey Mike whassup with posting this PM? I read this at the weekend and curiosity makes me come back to see....errr not a lot.

at least let us know if she sent a grovelly PM. Either way methinks a name change from Ema might be on the cards...

God I'm such a nosey c@$t!!

[detective-boy]

Emma, you're talking crap.

The number of graduates in the police service is increasing all the time. You know about the Chief Constables with doctorates I presume? What about the murder squad detectives with the same level of qualification? Not that many I grant you, but I would guess even one would be a surprise judging by your comments.

Mind you, maintaining the stereotype that we are all thick ain't all bad news - lawyers fall for it as well and get really slaughtered when we run rings round them at Court! (BSc, LLb and MBA in case you're interested).

Agree with your point that it should be made a degree-level profession though. The amount of stuff we expect the average copper to know (and be able to deliver) is now enormous - it's not been all walking round, shaking hands with locked doors and knowing how to tell the time for many years.

[dr256]

mr porter says it best.

edited having washed my mouth out with soap and water.

[wildwildlifer]

bump
is there anybody on these boards who has to access to a mole or 'Deep Throat' at the Mail or particularly the Mail On Sunday.
It could be very helpful to establish a real-life identity to'Ema Petrova who claims to have been involved in he previous Paddick smear.
Her name may be Ellen, she probably lives in Essex or less likely comes from there. She is probably in her 50s and probably works for The Mail On Sunday as a senior researcher though perhaps freelance. There can't be too many like that.....
If this is against the rules of the board feel free to moderate it.....
I just thought a dash of sauce for the goose would be ..
;)

[editor]

Here'a an interesting thing. I've received an email from someone saying that they are a freelance journo for the Mail on Sunday and that 'Ema' used his account with his permission.

He's given me his full name and address but not replied to my request that he name this mysterious poster who somehow got access to his account.

I'm a little rushed off my feet right now, but this is certainly something I intend to follow up with vigour.

I'm not feeling too impressed with the Mail on Sunday right now, you see...

[TinyCrendon]

He's a freelance, at Northcliffe House ? He works where ? That sounds like bollocks. Freelance journos hardly ever get `accounts` at Associated...hmmm...keep on at em...

[GaryWary]

Originally posted by Ema Petrova
Me rude? Sometimes yes, but that is in the privacy of my own home.

I am talking about the lovely man who got involved in a dialogue with Brian and who told us:

a) that he knew CHL
b that he was wonderful
c) That he was a "journo" and Brian was wasting his time
d) do you recognise anyone posting regularly?
d) If not, wrong forum, sorry boys.

Ema
PS: Just a hunch....but if journo knew a story if it got up, tickled his anus and then bit him on the arse....I should be somewhat surprised.

If anus is a banned word please delete.

:):) Ema

Steady on love... I am stoned. You lost me at hello my name is Ema Petrova. :D

[Stobart Stopper]

so, you think most police officers are badly-educated do you?

Explain yourself. why don't you PM me.

[harry's afro hut]

methinks she's runaway Lara. have you got back on Femail yet after your ban? I've posted a few there but they've been in a rush and poor even by my standards. Its still like shooting fish in a barrel though unlike here where to contradict an opinion you have to come prepared and REALLY know some good shit.

I might be banned when I go back as I revealed the truth about Diana - it was Brian Paddick!

PM from Ema please Mike...:)

[Another Number]

Originally posted by detective-boy
Emma, you're talking crap.

The number of graduates in the police service is increasing all the time. You know about the Chief Constables with doctorates I presume? What about the murder squad detectives with the same level of qualification? Not that many I grant you, but I would guess even one would be a surprise judging by your comments.

Mind you, maintaining the stereotype that we are all thick ain't all bad news - lawyers fall for it as well and get really slaughtered when we run rings round them at Court! (BSc, LLb and MBA in case you're interested).

Agree with your point that it should be made a degree-level profession though. The amount of stuff we expect the average copper to know (and be able to deliver) is now enormous - it's not been all walking round, shaking hands with locked doors and knowing how to tell the time for many years.


If there are so many graduates joining up, why do they not demand that cannabis is made legal?

After all, most if not all, students have smoked cannabis at some point, if not throughout, their student careers.

I do not believe that a having a degree should be pre-requiste to joining the Police Service, to find my reasoning behind that, in order to be well balanced the Police Service need to take in from all backgrounds. Of course these people must all pass the entrance exam.

Has anyone here sat the Police entrance exam?

An example
-----
A triangle has how many sides?

a) Blue
b) Rugby
c) Three
d) Ice Lolly

-----

For any West Midlands Police Officers the answer is c) Three.

I am jesting a little, but believe me that exams are easier than any other exam you could hope to sit.

[editor]

Ema Petrova PM coming up very shortly.... look out for the offending PM being posted very, very soon!!

[GaryWary]

Originally posted by Another Number
If there are so many graduates joining up, why do they not demand that cannabis is made legal?

After all, most if not all, students have smoked cannabis at some point, if not throughout, their student careers.

I went to Brunel. I would say about 25% of the population smoked cannabis.. not as you say "most if not all". Furthermore, on my degree there was 40 students. I know only 5 of them smoked. 3 of those dropped out! A coincidence? Methinks not. I am not implying that all cannabis users are dropouts, I am just saying it makes drop out more possible. Antimotivational syndrom has a basis in reality even if other cannabis myths do not.

I didn't smoke at all during my degree. I worked like a demon though. I wanted a 1st class. I have to say this.. but most of the dropouts I knew got heavily into smoking cannabis before dropping out.. I know a dozen people who did this. I like cannabis, but let's not make it out to be the best and only thing in the world - it isn't. It has it's little problems.

[detective-boy]

Originally posted by Another Number



If there are so many graduates joining up, why do they not demand that cannabis is made legal?

I do not believe that a having a degree should be pre-requiste to joining the Police Service, to find my reasoning behind that, in order to be well balanced the Police Service need to take in from all backgrounds. Of course these people must all pass the entrance exam.


Hi, Another Number

Your comments taken in the spirit in which they are intended.

That said, a couple of points. No matter how many police officers believe cannabis should be made legal they cannot demand that. Changes to the law are a matter for the will of the people, expressed through Parliament (I know, I know, it's a pretty crap system, but it's what we're stuck with at present). All coppers can do is exercise their discretion in the application of the current laws (and this brings us back to Brain Paddick's initial cannabis scheme which formalised what was (and is) being done elsewhere (i.e. informal caution and bin the offending item).

As for degrees, totally agree with your belief that the police should recruit from the widest possible spread of backgrounds. But degrees are far more commonly accessible now than they were. And there's no reason why the degree has to be had up front - like nursing we could recruit anyone and use their training (properly accredited) to lead to a degree at the end of their probation or whatever (as can be the case with nursing as I understand).

My point was that what we expect of coppers is degree-level stuff.

[Another Number]

But I would Like to see anyone who wishes to join the Police Service have at least 6 months in as a Special Constable. I believe this should be part of the application process.

This would lead to more free coppers on the street, not just Uniform Hangers, or Hobby Bobbies. Those that were not successful would likely stay, or at least a high percentage. Those that found they were not suited would leave, those unfit to where the uniform could/should be noticed early on, thus saving money.

What do you reckon?

A Number

[Not Sweating]

i work my way through all that and the private message we've (ipresume) all been waiting for still hasn't been published?!? come on ed, some of us have to pay for our online time.......:confused:

[Mrs Magpie]

It's in the 'UPDATE LEGAL ACTION Ema Petrova/Mail On Sunday' thread.........

[detective-boy]

Originally posted by Another Number
But I would Like to see anyone who wishes to join the Police Service have at least 6 months in as a Special Constable. I believe this should be part of the application process.

This would lead to more free coppers on the street, not just Uniform Hangers, or Hobby Bobbies. Those that were not successful would likely stay, or at least a high percentage. Those that found they were not suited would leave, those unfit to where the uniform could/should be noticed early on, thus saving money.

What do you reckon?

A Number

Not a bad idea in principle, but I think it might be asking a bit much of people, expecting them to effectively do their probationary period for nothing!

As things stand, there is a two year probationary period which is designed to allow either the MPS or the newe officer to decide it's not for them and relatively simply break the connection. Unfortunately, years of bureaucracy have rendered it pretty difficult to achieve - perhaps it would be better to re-visit that.

And your question raises the issue of why the Special Constabulary have been missed out of the street wardens / two-tier policing debate - why go directly to non-police officers rather than revamping the Special Constabulary (perhaps by paying he volunteers for the time they do on the same basis as the Territorial Army)