View Full Version : Has anybody ever reported a street dealer in Brixton?
Had a debate a few weeks ago with officers who were nicking the vegans in Windrush Square for allegedly causing drug dealing by giving away tasty vegan meals. This happened a few feet from the KFC-to-Iceland stretch of pavement where I get offered drugs about fifty times per week. So I asked the officers what they would ideally like me to do when offered drugs on the street. The advice was:
- memorise dealer's appearance
- go to station and report him
- officer will go and make an arrest
- dealer will be charged if drugs are found on him
- I will be invited to give evidence at court that he offered me drugs
Well blow me down wiv' a fevver. Try as I might I can't imagine that this chain of events has ever, ever happened. Anybody know different?
I always have a digital camera in my pocket. Perhaps I should use it next time somebody says 'skunk' in my ear. How fast would I have to run to stop the camera being shoved up my arse?
teuchter
03-05-2008, 14:44
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
What advice do you think the police should have given you, if not this?
cliche guevara
03-05-2008, 14:53
Had a debate a few weeks ago with officers who were nicking the vegans in Windrush Square for allegedly causing drug dealing by giving away tasty vegan meals.
Try as I might, I just cannot understand this sentence :confused:
Not trying to make a point. Just musing on the difficulty of policing Brixton's street dealers. It strikes me as very, very strange that with all the cameras and officers at their disposal the police seem to be unable to stop such open street dealing.
I remember Paddick once suggesting that what we needed was more community action to drive dealers out, as has happened with street prostitution in some places. But in Brixton we seem to have no prospect of community action. Either people don't care, or they're too scared, or they're on the side of the dealers, or they just won't help the police.
I suppose I'm fairly indifferent to the whole thing. But if I was trying to bring up kids in Brixton I'd want it cleaned up. Why aren't there armies of mums and grannies outside the KFC telling the dealers where to go?
Try as I might, I just cannot understand this sentence :confused:
Nobody understands it. That's because it's nonsense. Neverthless, the vegans were nicked for giving away food, because free food attracts undesirables, who attract dealers. Their alleged crime was to create a situation in which members of the public were likely to be caused alarm/distress/harassment/intimidation in a dispersal zone.
Nobody understands it. That's because it's nonsense. Neverthless, the vegans were nicked for giving away food, because free food attracts undesirables, who attract dealers. Their alleged crime was to create a situation in which members of the public were likely to be caused alarm/distress/harassment/intimidation in a dispersal zone.
Mate of mine was given a £80 spot fine outside KFC for throwing away a cigarette butt. Meanwhile......
Minnie_the_Minx
03-05-2008, 15:15
Mate of mine was given a £80 spot fine outside KFC for throwing away a cigarette butt. Meanwhile......
£80? Mate of mine was given £40 fine. Did his name begin with E?
£80? Mate of mine was given £40 fine. Did his name begin with E?
No. You know who it was...D****. It's an £80 and £50 if you pay within 10 days. Story in SLP yesterday about a guy getting done on West Norwood High Street for same.
RaverDrew
03-05-2008, 15:25
No
Because they don't bother me in the slightest
The nimbys can fuck off somewhere else afaic
teuchter
03-05-2008, 15:42
Not trying to make a point. Just musing on the difficulty of policing Brixton's street dealers. It strikes me as very, very strange that with all the cameras and officers at their disposal the police seem to be unable to stop such open street dealing.
I remember Paddick once suggesting that what we needed was more community action to drive dealers out, as has happened with street prostitution in some places. But in Brixton we seem to have no prospect of community action. Either people don't care, or they're too scared, or they're on the side of the dealers, or they just won't help the police.
I suppose I'm fairly indifferent to the whole thing. But if I was trying to bring up kids in Brixton I'd want it cleaned up. Why aren't there armies of mums and grannies outside the KFC telling the dealers where to go?
My understanding (which might of course be mistaken) is that the police have an unspoken policy of tolerating the weed dealers to some extent. Which makes sense to me as the don't really seem to do much harm, other than ripping off the odd tourist or drunken claphamite. The dispersal zone (again as I understand it and I may be wrong) is aimed more at the "hard" drug users and their dealers which makes some sense on some level as they are more likely to cause hassle. Although of course it doesn't really solve the problem, it just moves it elsewhere, ie. residential streets nearby where it arguably causes more hassle than if it's in the busier central areas. Do a search on dispersal zones in the brixton forum, there's been a fair bit of discussion previously.
No
Because they don't bother me in the slightest
The nimbys can fuck off somewhere else afaic
I'm not a nimby, those guys don't intimidate me, but I do feel a bit sorry for all the mums with kids who have to wait for the bus outside Woolies surrounded by street dealers.
It's not ideal.
My understanding (which might of course be mistaken) is that the police have an unspoken policy of tolerating the weed dealers to some extent.
I know a lot of the trades are in nothing stronger than tea. But I wonder how many of the tea dealers also sell crack? All of 'em?
RaverDrew
03-05-2008, 17:10
I know a lot of the trades are in nothing stronger than tea. But I wonder how many of the tea dealers also sell crack? All of 'em?
http://www.urban75.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif
teuchter
03-05-2008, 17:25
I have yet to see any of the dealers pushing crack on children waiting with their mums for the bus outside Woollies. But perhaps I am not paying enough attention.
I don't think they are trying to deal to them, but it is unfair for them to be surrounded by it. Anti-social, if you will.
FridgeMagnet
03-05-2008, 17:34
Perhaps, then, if you want to give away vegan food the best bet is to hang around on the street saying "lentils? lentils? you want chickpeas?" to passers-by?
teuchter
03-05-2008, 17:47
I don't think they are trying to deal to them, but it is unfair for them to be surrounded by it. Anti-social, if you will.
I'm not sure if they are any more anti-social than the various bible loons shouting out their messages.
I don't disagree with that, I hate the bible loons more personally but then I don't have kids in tow which I imagine might change my perspective a little.
bluestreak
03-05-2008, 17:57
I don't know what you're defending vegans, nick h. Giving away free food undermines the very fabric of society.
teuchter
03-05-2008, 18:06
I don't disagree with that, I hate the bible loons more personally but then I don't have kids in tow which I imagine might change my perspective a little.
I enjoy the marginal chaos of the high street, dealers and bible loons included. I suppose I just resent the suggestion that every corner of London should be totally sanitised in order not to scare the little kiddies (or more likely, their paranoid parents). It's kind of nice to have some bits of town that are for grown-ups, as it were.
http://www.urban75.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif
RaverDrew, you're obviously a bit of an expert. Of the people who offer me skunk on the pavement, what proportion have anything worth buying? All I ever hear is complaints from people who've been ripped off with tea or grass cuttings or something. Do these street dealers really have any stashes of good stuff? Where do they hide it? And what would they say if I said "no skunk today, thanks, but have you got any crack?"
I met two convicted crack dealers recently (and went to the trial of one of them, who sold to an undercover police officer in Brixton market) and I'm curious to know how they operate.
I don't think the high street would be particularly "sanitised" without the dealers. I have no problem with what they do but just don't think a busy bus stop, where many people have no choice other than to have to wait, is the best place for them.
And the high street is just that - a high street. If you want some places for grown-up's playgrounds, it's probably not the best choice for that either. There are so many families growing up in Brixton, and presumably in most cases that's because they like it and dont want it to be sanitised. But it's not for grown ups, it's for the local community.
RaverDrew
03-05-2008, 18:20
RaverDrew, you're obviously a bit of an expert. Of the people who offer me skunk on the pavement, what proportion have anything worth buying? All I ever hear is complaints from people who've been ripped off with tea or grass cuttings or something. Do these street dealers really have any stashes of good stuff? Where do they hide it? And what would they say if I said "no skunk today, thanks, but have you got any crack?"
I met two convicted crack dealers recently (and went to the trial of one of them, who sold to an undercover police officer in Brixton market) and I'm curious to know how they operate.
Why do you want to know ? Are you a journalist ?
Yes.
Edit: and a local resident who has an issue with the ways that the police use the drugs trade to justify the bullying of people who are an asset to the community.
teuchter
03-05-2008, 18:41
I don't think the high street would be particularly "sanitised" without the dealers. I have no problem with what they do but just don't think a busy bus stop, where many people have no choice other than to have to wait, is the best place for them.
And the high street is just that - a high street. If you want some places for grown-up's playgrounds, it's probably not the best choice for that either. There are so many families growing up in Brixton, and presumably in most cases that's because they like it and dont want it to be sanitised. But it's not for grown ups, it's for the local community.
Fair enough, I take your point about it being a high street, and that it's reasonable to expect that people shouldn't be hassled whilst waiting for the bus.
I just don't feel that the dealers, in general, cause any significant hassle at the moment, or are dangerous to children waiting for the bus. I'm sure things might be different if the police took a completely laissez-faire approach, but as things are, I reckon an acceptable balance has been struck.
teuchter
03-05-2008, 18:46
RaverDrew, you're obviously a bit of an expert. Of the people who offer me skunk on the pavement, what proportion have anything worth buying? All I ever hear is complaints from people who've been ripped off with tea or grass cuttings or something. Do these street dealers really have any stashes of good stuff? Where do they hide it? And what would they say if I said "no skunk today, thanks, but have you got any crack?"
I have no idea how many of them would sell you crack too. Perhaps you should try asking them.
I do know people who buy weed off some of them regularly, and are not ripped off (due I imagine to them being repeat customers). And buying off a guy in the market seems like a better and safer option that going to some unknown's flat, or an empty back street or something like that. In a more sensible world, of course, we would regulate the selling of drugs but that isn't so, so this seems like a good enough set up given the circumstances.
RaverDrew
03-05-2008, 18:49
Yes.
Edit: and a local resident who has an issue with the ways that the police use the drugs trade to justify the bullying of people who are an asset to the community.
Ok, fair enough then.
In my experience* the crack and heroin street trade is kept very seperate from the more 'in yer face' weed/skunk pushers. They don't go around hawking there wares publicly, it's not worth the risk. The ones that do try this are 9 times out of 10 stingers just looking for a quick buck to get a fix themselves. In recent years most of the real weed/skunk dealers are the kiddies that hang about near the bus stops and a few of the older more-discreet 'faces', but even then their deals are normally pisspoor sizewise. The real white and brown dealers don't actually hold too much gear in one go. They stay pretty mobile using cabs and private drivers to ferry them to different locations to reload.
*Ex-addict, a lot of my friends and neighbours still use on a daily basis and score off the street locally
Just musing on the difficulty of policing Brixton's street dealers. It strikes me as very, very strange that with all the cameras and officers at their disposal the police seem to be unable to stop such open street dealing.
If I had any decent sized business dealing weed I wouldn't keep it on me. I'd keep it somewhere nearby, and get a number of guys to do the "skunk, skunk" thing. If they got nicked they wouldn't have anything on them.
I don't know if that's how some of those guys operate (aside from the ones who are selling oregano/sage/tea...:p) but if it is then reporting them, them getting arrested etc, would be a waste of time and resources. I've sort of always assumed that's why the police don't bother with them.
detective-boy
04-05-2008, 09:46
It strikes me as very, very strange that with all the cameras and officers at their disposal the police seem to be unable to stop such open street dealing.
The police cannot "stop" drug dealing or anything else.
They arrest hundreds of dealers every year, only to see them replaced by others and usually back out and dealing again themselves within days / months.
The problem is societies at the higher level and Brixtons more locally. Why do the "community" not make it unpleasant for the dealers like they make it unpleasant for the police trying to arrest them on a regular basis? If Brixton genuinely did not want drug dealers on it's streets, it wouldn't have them. But the vast majority of the "community" either aren't bothered or sympathise with the dealers (for a whole range of (mostly misguided) reasons).
All the police can do is deal with the symptoms.
Mrs Magpie
04-05-2008, 10:37
Also, people are frightened by them DB. They move in the world of guns and knives.
I'm sure I remember seeing a massively detailed threat on here somewhere where someone who knew about this actually explained the Brixton police's reason for not tackling street dealers.
Sounds useful. I've had a good search but not found it.
detective-boy
04-05-2008, 17:13
Also, people are frightened by them DB. They move in the world of guns and knives.
There is an aspect of that ... but if "the community" as an entity decided it wanted to make life difficult for them, it could and would. The fact is that it doesn't. Those who do are a minority and would not get any back up from anyone else if they chose to do or say anything ... so they don't.
Maggie said there's no such thing as society (OK, I know she didn't actually say it, but it's what she believed and the basis for her government) ... there was then (well, some anyway), but she'd be right now ... :(:(
detective-boy
04-05-2008, 17:15
I'm sure I remember seeing a massively detailed threat on here somewhere where someone who knew about this actually explained the Brixton police's reason for not tackling street dealers.
I know about it. They DO tackle street dealers. Regularly. The rest of my post explains why that doesn't have any permanent effect (and why, after a while, they sort of get fed up just going through the same old motions, especailly when they regularly get abused by passers-by during those efforts).
teuchter
04-05-2008, 18:42
Detective_boy, i'm not quite sure what you mean when you say, firstly that there is no society, and then that the "community" in brixton chooses not to do anything about the street dealers. It doesn't seem like you see it as a laziness, but a conscious decision to accept it. And it sounds like you view this decision as a mistaken or "wrong" one to some extent. I'd be interested to hear why?
I can quite understand that in other parts of london, the same situation wouldn't be tolerated by the "community" (whatever that is if society doesn't exist any more) but isn't that just a reflection on the fact that different types of people tend to live in these other places?
What i'm saying is that i'm not sure whether to interpret your posts as a disapproval of the way the majority of people in brixton respond to the presence of the dealers, or whether you're just saying that the police have little real option but to go along with the local majority view. If it's the former, i would be interested to know how and why you feel the "community" should be reacting differently.
I certainly don't like being harrassed with "skunk" whispered in my ear when I'm waiting for a bus, but there's very little I can do about it because you're right, they most likely are armed and I am not afraid to admit I fear them.
It's not just "mums with kids" that they are a problem to - they are a problem to any member of society just trying to go about their daily business and not use drugs - which, regardless of your own feelings about them, are still against the law.
The biggest problem is that they are very difficult to describe to the police as far as reporting them goes - "about 5ft 10, black, cropped hair, trainers, jeans and a leather jacket" would probably be about 50% of the crowd on any given time. The big problem is that none of the dealers *have* any distinguishing features - probably by choice - so they are almost impossible to identify.
The bigger problem is, unfortunately, that if the police decide to get tough with these dealer scum, they are likely to create more problems from the 'wider community' that use their services.
RaverDrew
04-05-2008, 20:02
They are scum because they whisper "skunk" at you ? :confused:
They are scum because they whisper "skunk" at you ? :confused:They are drug dealers, lowlife, criminals.
The only place in Brixton for them is about half way up the hill on the right hand side.
People here wonder why Brixton has such a bad reputation? Crime and drugs. Get rid of the drugs, a lot of the crime will go. Things like the section between KFC and Iceland crawling with drug sellers in broad daylight are the things that contribute to this bad reputation that people seem to wonder why Brixton has.
teuchter
04-05-2008, 20:20
they are a problem to any member of society just trying to go about their daily business and not use drugs
They are not a problem for me. Or for just about anyone else I know who lives around here.
Out of all the people or things that one might be "harassed" by during daily life in London, they are nowhere near the top of my list.
Perhaps you'd like to expand on your thoughts on how drugs and crime are related, and how removing these particular dealers from the centre of Brixton is going to impact on that relationship?
RaverDrew
04-05-2008, 20:26
They are drug dealers, lowlife, criminals.
The only place in Brixton for them is about half way up the hill on the right hand side.
People here wonder why Brixton has such a bad reputation? Crime and drugs. Get rid of the drugs, a lot of the crime will go. Things like the section between KFC and Iceland crawling with drug sellers in broad daylight are the things that contribute to this bad reputation that people seem to wonder why Brixton has.
Do they really do you any harm though ?
Do they really do you any harm though ?
Personally, probably not ... but that isn't the point. I can just ignore them, but the simple fact of the matter is I shouldn't have to ignore and/or tolerate drug dealers dealing openly on a public street with no apparent fear of the consequences of their actions.
It's against the law, therefore it shouldn't be happening. Period.
teuchter
04-05-2008, 21:05
It's against the law, therefore it shouldn't be happening. Period.
The fact that, as you admit, it doesn't really do you any harm, suggests that the police are right in using their resources elsewhere. You need a pretty full-on police system to 100% enforce the law all the time and everywhere.
Perhaps you'd feel more at home in north korea.
Minnie_the_Minx
04-05-2008, 21:15
No. You know who it was...D****. It's an £80 and £50 if you pay within 10 days. Story in SLP yesterday about a guy getting done on West Norwood High Street for same.
D**** ? :confused:
The fact that, as you admit, it doesn't really do you any harm, suggests that the police are right in using their resources elsewhere. You need a pretty full-on police system to 100% enforce the law all the time and everywhere.
Perhaps you'd feel more at home in north korea.
How about living in a country where normal people can go about their business untroubled, and those who break the law are dealt with appropriately?
I have never been bothered by the police. I guess I don't look or act suspicious.
I'm not sure what your comment about North Korea has to do with anything.
Hillbillie
04-05-2008, 22:18
They are drug dealers, lowlife, criminals.
The only place in Brixton for them is about half way up the hill on the right hand side.
Thanks, thats about exactly where I live.
Being a "mum with kids", and having been a not mum without kids in brixton for many years, I have assumed most sensible folks ignore them. They must sell something vaguely half worth buying or they would have been beaten senseless long ago (many must ave been already), but most of us could get a better deal elsewhere if we wanted to do so. Therefore they are there to supply the "drug tourists" who Lambeth council have said they want to send a strong message to, by naming and shaming people on a website.... I always thought that selling drugs was illegal and the council could probably aspire to do better than naming people on a website, but this is the 21st centruy after all.
memespring
04-05-2008, 22:33
No
Because they don't bother me in the slightest
The nimbys can fuck off somewhere else afaic
I'm not sure you can say this is a simple nimby issue just because they don't annoy you. Street dealing has an effect on both the people who live with it and (more importantly & radically) on the people who are forced by circumstance to do it (generally pretty low down the chain).
I've reported street dealers a couple of times. Notably a few times a couple of years back when the market was having a bad phase.
After a few weeks of having our gate busted in day after day me and my other half got woken up by an argument (which was about to break into something *far* nastier that anyone would like to witness) between dealers about 5" from our bed (there was a wall/window inbetween). We called the police.
Me and my neighbour were also threatened by a street dealer for opening our gate and therefore interupting a crack deal (on separate occasions) we both called the police.
Street dealing had been used by the authorities to justify some questionable stuff, but that doesnt turn it into a simple issue.
Thanks, thats about exactly where I live.I was actually referring to the prison, and inside it rather than outside.
Mrs Magpie
05-05-2008, 06:33
Do they really do you any harm though ?
In a wider sense, yes. Gun and knife crime, violent robbery, burglary etc. The street dealing doesn't operate in a vacuum.
In a wider sense, yes. Gun and knife crime, violent robbery, burglary etc. The street dealing doesn't operate in a vacuum.
Plus it just makes me feel uneasy. I don't want to be arrested as 'possibly about to make a purchase' just because I turn round and tell them where to shove their skunk at the wrong time.
The only good thing about the drug dealers is that they generally just kill each other over 'territories' and don't drag innocent bystanders into it - but sadly there's usually someone else just waiting to take over the spot.
I would much rather the source of the problems that people turn to drugs was dealt with - but until that point, at least tackling the dealers and making it a little less easy to get hold of the stuff is a start. Unfortunately it's a much wider social problem than just being harassed in a bus queue.
mysterybadger
05-05-2008, 09:13
<i>go to station and report him</i>
I'm sorry but I can't help laughing at the image of all these coppers sitting around Brixton waiting for people to tell them where the drug dealers are.
"How are you spelling 'Kentucky', sir?"
The dealers don't bother me but mates getting mugged in the streets behind the Ritzy for drug money does.
That Brixton is "known" for drugs also attracts loads of tossers who can't find their own dealers into the area, so the problem becomes self-perpetuating. I'd start by harassing the drug tourists out of the area.
detective-boy
05-05-2008, 10:28
Detective_boy, i'm not quite sure what you mean when you say, firstly that there is no society, and then that the "community" in brixton chooses not to do anything about the street dealers. It doesn't seem like you see it as a laziness, but a conscious decision to accept it. And it sounds like you view this decision as a mistaken or "wrong" one to some extent. I'd be interested to hear why?
You're wrong in your assumption. As I posted:
But the vast majority of the "community" either aren't bothered or sympathise with the dealers (for a whole range of (mostly misguided) reasons)
Some people can't be bothered, some sympathise with the dealers for a variety of reasons and there are many in between (some scared of doing or saying anything as Mrs M has subsequently pointed out).
I have no particular view of whether the "community" are wrong in their stance, nor did I post anything to suggest that. Why do you attribute that view to me?
detective-boy
05-05-2008, 10:32
Perhaps you'd like to expand on your thoughts on how drugs and crime are related, and how removing these particular dealers from the centre of Brixton is going to impact on that relationship?
One example: drug dealers fight over territories. Those fights come to the streets where they work. Innocent people get caught in the crossfire.
Another: drug dealers operating openly gives a strong message that criminal behaviour is acceptable here and the assumption is made that enforcement activity against any criminality is likely to be lower. This attracts other criminals to what they see as a "safer" area to operate.
teuchter
05-05-2008, 11:34
You're wrong in your assumption. As I posted:
Some people can't be bothered, some sympathise with the dealers for a variety of reasons and there are many in between (some scared of doing or saying anything as Mrs M has subsequently pointed out).
I have no particular view of whether the "community" are wrong in their stance, nor did I post anything to suggest that. Why do you attribute that view to me?
It was just that the tone of this post felt like you were saying that people locally should do more to stop it:
The problem is societies at the higher level and Brixtons more locally. Why do the "community" not make it unpleasant for the dealers like they make it unpleasant for the police trying to arrest them on a regular basis? If Brixton genuinely did not want drug dealers on it's streets, it wouldn't have them. But the vast majority of the "community" either aren't bothered or sympathise with the dealers (for a whole range of (mostly misguided) reasons).
Fair enough if you are just making an observation.
But you seem to be saying that:
1) you don't think street dealing is a good thing
2) the police can't do anything about it without the support of the local community
3) the local community don't/wouldn't give them that support
Which seems like placing the responsibility for the problem with the local community. And if your stance is that street dealing is a "bad thing" then, by implication, the community are doing the "wrong" thing in not supporting the police in stopping it.
teuchter
05-05-2008, 11:42
One example: drug dealers fight over territories. Those fights come to the streets where they work. Innocent people get caught in the crossfire.
Sure. But if removed from central Brixton, they are just going to go somewhere else, where someone else is going to get caught in the crossfire, no?
Another: drug dealers operating openly gives a strong message that criminal behaviour is acceptable here and the assumption is made that enforcement activity against any criminality is likely to be lower. This attracts other criminals to what they see as a "safer" area to operate.
OK, this is a fair point, but is it not possible for the police to strike some sort of line where, for example, people are not regularly arrested for just selling weed, but, they do come down heavily on anything more serious within the same area, in order that the necessary message is got across?
For example, if they are causing hassle to people that live around there by blocking their gates or getting aggro with them (I do know people who have these problems), then the police should show up quickly and deal with it.
If the dealer 'scum' were cleared out of Brixton the brakes would be off for the dreaded gentrification. Most of my white friends won't come to Brixton because they think it's a dangerous ghetto. That's fine by me. The dealers and street drinkers are probably the main thing preventing Brixton from becoming the new Notting Hill.
If I had the good fortune to own a house in Brixton, I'd say 'clear the dealers out'. Because in ten years I'd be a millionaire and could retire to...wherever.
But I'm just a tenant, and I want the place to stay the way it is. Or preferably go back a few years to when there were more interesting bars and more edge. There are too many white pseudo-bohemians here already. (I'm one of 'em.)
I want the Effra to be full of Windy boys, not white football fans.
If the dealer 'scum' were cleared out of Brixton the brakes would be off for the dreaded gentrification. Most of my white friends won't come to Brixton because they think it's a dangerous ghetto. That's fine by me. The dealers and street drinkers are probably the main thing preventing Brixton from becoming the new Notting Hill.
Getting rid of the dealers would make Brixton vaguely pleasant, therefore it's a good reason to let them stay....?
I know I haven't been around these parts long, but that has to be the biggest heap of bollocks I've read so far.
If Brixton turning nice would upset you, I'm sure there are other shitholes around London that would gladly have you living in as another target for burglary, mugging, stabbing, shooting etc etc.
Mrs Magpie
05-05-2008, 17:41
If the dealer 'scum' were cleared out of Brixton the brakes would be off for the dreaded gentrification. Sorry, but it's already happened gentrification-wise. I speak as someone who has lived here for over 27 years.
mysterybadger
05-05-2008, 17:45
Perhaps you'd like to expand on your thoughts on how drugs and crime are related.
Here's a thought: people steal money to buy drugs. With knives.
People on here might not want Brixton to turn into Notting Hill but how many deaths are you prepared to countenance so you can continue to live out your bohemian fantasies?
Gixxer1000
05-05-2008, 18:57
There are too many white pseudo-bohemians here already. (I'm one of 'em.) .
20 years ago maybe.Brixton isnt that trendy anymore,its all very middle class and comparitively safe.
teuchter
05-05-2008, 19:54
Here's a thought: people steal money to buy drugs. With knives.
People on here might not want Brixton to turn into Notting Hill but how many deaths are you prepared to countenance so you can continue to live out your bohemian fantasies?
Perhaps you'd like to expand on your thoughts on how drugs and crime are related, and how removing these particular dealers from the centre of Brixton is going to impact on that relationship?
^^that was the full question - ie. how does moving it somewhere else solve the problem?
pinkmonkey
05-05-2008, 20:11
For those using Notting Hill as an example - I've lived in both places - Brixton and Notting Hill. Was a victim of crime four times in Notting Hill - street robbery twice, death threat by some random nutter (luckily he chased me into the path of a patrol car who then arrested him), chased down the street by another nutter, threatening me with a broken whisky bottle.
Brixton - nothing.
IMO Notting Hill is about as gentrified as you can get but it is still surrounded by council estates and poverty.....
I didn't mind the street dealers when I lived in Brixton - but now, as an outsider, the amount of umm.... liveliness on the street when you come out of the tube station does take some getting used to.....it so in-yer-face. The only similar place is Camden, you get lots more hassle there by weed dealers - they seem desperate.
I live in Tottenham BTW....
detective-boy
05-05-2008, 20:35
Which seems like placing the responsibility for the problem with the local community. And if your stance is that street dealing is a "bad thing" then, by implication, the community are doing the "wrong" thing in not supporting the police in stopping it.
I don't think street dealing is a good thing - not because of the drugs themselves (if you read my posts you will know my view is that almost all drugs should be legalised) but because of the wider impact on criminality. If society has a law, that law should be enforced appropriately. If it isn't, or can't be, then it should be removed.
I have no view on whether or not the community's attitude is a good or a bad thing - it is not my community and so I am not entitled to a view (as I am repeatedly told). Other than to say that those who are part of that community and who do not want it there could organise and make it impossible if they wished - they are by far in the majority over those who would actively argue against them.
detective-boy
05-05-2008, 20:40
Sure. But if removed from central Brixton, they are just going to go somewhere else, where someone else is going to get caught in the crossfire, no?
The same arguments apply wherever they go.
OK, this is a fair point, but is it not possible for the police to strike some sort of line where, for example, people are not regularly arrested for just selling weed, but, they do come down heavily on anything more serious within the same area, in order that the necessary message is got across?
No. The only way the police wold know it was weed being sold would be after an arrest had been made - once a criminal offence is then disclosed (and selling weed is), it would not be right for the police to be allowed to ignore it. The best that can reasonably be done is being done already - maximum use of non-prosecution disposals (cautions, etc) for weed offences and significantly lower sentences even if there is a prosecution.
In every situation people being prosecuted say "What about them then ..." and point at others (even speeding motorists stopped at the roadside, pointing at others whizzing by). Do you not think that this would create even more problems / allegations if some dealers were ignored and others were arrested?
HackneyE9
05-05-2008, 21:18
Most of my white friends won't come to Brixton because they think it's a dangerous ghetto.
Sounds like you've got some proper tosser friends. Don't know what that says about you.
teuchter
05-05-2008, 21:53
No. The only way the police wold know it was weed being sold would be after an arrest had been made - once a criminal offence is then disclosed (and selling weed is), it would not be right for the police to be allowed to ignore it. The best that can reasonably be done is being done already - maximum use of non-prosecution disposals (cautions, etc) for weed offences and significantly lower sentences even if there is a prosecution.
In every situation people being prosecuted say "What about them then ..." and point at others (even speeding motorists stopped at the roadside, pointing at others whizzing by). Do you not think that this would create even more problems / allegations if some dealers were ignored and others were arrested?
Well, what I'm suggesting is that the police can unofficially ignore the actual dealing - ie. they don't make a particular effort to apprehend the guys standing about outside KFC, but they do make big deal about attending to any kind of aggro in the surrounding area, and whether or not the person causing the trouble happens to be one of the dealers, they get dealt with fairly severely. I would say that sends a fairly clear message that the actual dealing/loitering about is tolerated to some extent, but any associated trouble is not. If someone is, say, arrested for causing some kind of trouble in somebody's back yard, and is found with drugs on them, and done for it and tries the "what about them then" line, then the answer is quite simple: they aren't causing hassle.
I mean, anyway, this is kind of the arrangement at the moment, isn't it?
teuchter
05-05-2008, 21:57
I don't think street dealing is a good thing - not because of the drugs themselves (if you read my posts you will know my view is that almost all drugs should be legalised) but because of the wider impact on criminality.
I understand what you're saying.
And I also think that most drugs should be legalised.
But I kind of think that anyone whinging about the presence of the dealers should be asking for the law to be changed, not for the dealers to be moved on. Or coming up with some kind of solution that doesn't involve just shifting the problem onto someone else.
Getting rid of the dealers would make Brixton vaguely pleasant, therefore it's a good reason to let them stay....?
I know I haven't been around these parts long, but that has to be the biggest heap of bollocks I've read so far.
It's market forces. I'm afraid you can't fault my logic.
If Brixton turning nice would upset you, I'm sure there are other shitholes around London that would gladly have you living in as another target for burglary, mugging, stabbing, shooting etc etc.
You misunderstand the nature of the local violence. Unlike, say, Swindon, where chavs will administer a kicking to random targets purely for amusement, Brixton violence tends to be personal. It's usually gang-related or triggered by perceived disrespect. Innocent passers-by are rarely affected. (I can only think of one exception - the Polish woman in New Cross who was killed by a stray bullet.) I feel safer around here than in many parts of Britain. In fact I only know of one person who's been mugged in the three years I've lived here. There are so many cameras and police that street robbery can't be a very viable career option.
And Brixton's already nice. That's why I came here. The Afro-Caribbean culture makes it one of the few parts of London where strangers talk to each other. Elsewhere English culture rules: stare ahead and avoid eye contact with people you haven't been introduced to.
And Brixton's already nice. That's why I came here. The Afro-Caribbean culture makes it one of the few parts of London where strangers talk to each other.
The only stuff I hear from strangers when I'm down the bottom of the hill shopping is "skunk, weed".
I want the Effra to be full of Windy boys, not white football fans.
but a lot of the 'Windy boys' sold up and moved South towards Thornton Heath and made a few quid out of it, ironically when Brixton first became full of 'white bohemians'
you can't stop areas from changing demographically. Brixton used to be white and middle class for starters, it's changed once already, it may change again further, but i hope not.
I suggest you move to Thornton Heath if you yearn for a pint with some west indians.
teuchter
06-05-2008, 14:12
Getting rid of the dealers would make Brixton vaguely pleasant, therefore it's a good reason to let them stay....?
I know I haven't been around these parts long, but that has to be the biggest heap of bollocks I've read so far.
If Brixton turning nice would upset you, I'm sure there are other shitholes around London that would gladly have you living in as another target for burglary, mugging, stabbing, shooting etc etc.
It's a bit of a mystery to me why you choose to live in Brixton, if you dislike it so much?
bluestreak
06-05-2008, 14:38
If I had any decent sized business dealing weed I wouldn't keep it on me. I'd keep it somewhere nearby, and get a number of guys to do the "skunk, skunk" thing. If they got nicked they wouldn't have anything on them.
I don't know if that's how some of those guys operate (aside from the ones who are selling oregano/sage/tea...:p) but if it is then reporting them, them getting arrested etc, would be a waste of time and resources. I've sort of always assumed that's why the police don't bother with them.
They often stash it behind the poster frames on the bus stops, or in the rim of bins.
The cops know too, because I've seen them retrieve drugs from there.
I would rather be offered skunk by reasonably mannered people outside KFC than vegan food by some work shy crustie. At least those men work chickpea boy.
Also, people are frightened by them DB. They move in the world of guns and knives.
We all live in a world of guns and knives. Still, most violence in Brixton is of the domestic kind so lets not get too fearful of strangers.
tough with these dealer scum
Fucking idiot, why is someone scum for selling weed? You sir are a toal fucking prick.
One example: drug dealers fight over territories. Those fights come to the streets where they work. Innocent people get caught in the crossfire.
Another: drug dealers operating openly gives a strong message that criminal behaviour is acceptable here and the assumption is made that enforcement activity against any criminality is likely to be lower. This attracts other criminals to what they see as a "safer" area to operate.
A big group of criminals (called the police) set the tone years and years ago with their efforts to plant drugs on people, give out beatings, falsify evidence, shoot peoples mothers in the back by "accident" etc.
Finally, I got sold a ten instead of a twenty recently and raised it with the kindly and polite street dealer a week later. I got my top up. :)
Unlike more recently when I trusted my long term near neighbour who has taken my twenty and not came back, I suspect the git has spent it on rock!!
chico enrico
06-05-2008, 15:07
Not trying to make a point. Just musing on the difficulty of policing Brixton's street dealers. It strikes me as very, very strange that with all the cameras and officers at their disposal the police seem to be unable to stop such open street dealing.
just out of interest, are these 'street dealers' actually selling drugs or are they just blaggers out to rip off turnip-heads?
walk up camden high street any day and you'll have 20 folk offer you every drug under the sun.
none of them are selling drugs. they're just there to rip off students and naive fools. the real dealers you'd never notice in a million years.
just out of interest, are these 'street dealers' actually selling drugs or are they just blaggers out to rip off turnip-heads?
walk up camden high street any day and you'll have 20 folk offer you every drug under the sun.
none of them are selling drugs. they're just there to rip off students and naive fools. the real dealers you'd never notice in a million years.
Very rarely have I been ripped at the bus stop. Teeny tiny deals that you have to haggle over like a tourist in Tangier but not ripped off.
PS< Brixton does not attract the same student just arrived types that Camden seems to exist for.
chico enrico
06-05-2008, 15:16
PS< Brixton does not attract the same student just arrived types that Camden seems to exist for.
ah yes, "the walking wallets to be plundered by the quick of wit and quicker of hand" as Danny put it. :D
The way it works is that you arrive, think camden is the bees knees, live there, then quickly tire of life, then move to Brixton and start complaining about people saying skunk near you. Personally I find adverts more intrusive and offensive whilst I am waiting for a bus.
It's a bit of a mystery to me why you choose to live in Brixton, if you dislike it so much?
Actually it's not by choice. But it's a long story I need not repeat.
I don't dislike Brixton per se ... there are just things like being harrassed by drug dealers in the street that I would get rid of if it was up to me.
Fucking idiot, why is someone scum for selling weed? You sir are a toal fucking prick.
And you can't spell. But that's besides the point.
Drug dealing, taking and growing your own for that matter, is illegal under British Law as it stands right now. You can't spin that any other way.
It doesn't matter that weed might be 'fairly harmless', but that doesn't change the legal perspective.
Drugs, and the crime often associated with it, are a blight upon the community at large, and does not just affect those who decide to directly buy/sell. Many drug addicts - not just weed but harder stuff - have to turn to crime to get the money to fund their habit. That not only makes places less desireable to live, but also lowers house prices too.
So, in all honesty, my original statement still stands, and if I chose to use profanities to emphasise my point it would have been worded much stronger.
teuchter
06-05-2008, 15:53
I don't dislike Brixton per se ...
Getting rid of the dealers would make Brixton vaguely pleasant, therefore it's a good reason to let them stay....?
I know I haven't been around these parts long, but that has to be the biggest heap of bollocks I've read so far.
If Brixton turning nice would upset you, I'm sure there are other shitholes around London that would gladly have you living in as another target for burglary, mugging, stabbing, shooting etc etc.
If you don't want people to think you're just trolling, at least try and be a bit consistent.
And you can't spell. But that's besides the point.
Drug dealing, taking and growing your own for that matter, is illegal under British Law as it stands right now. You can't spin that any other way.
It doesn't matter that weed might be 'fairly harmless', but that doesn't change the legal perspective.
Drugs, and the crime often associated with it, are a blight upon the community at large, and does not just affect those who decide to directly buy/sell. Many drug addicts - not just weed but harder stuff - have to turn to crime to get the money to fund their habit. That not only makes places less desireable to live, but also lowers house prices too.
So, in all honesty, my original statement still stands, and if I chose to use profanities to emphasise my point it would have been worded much stronger.
I wonder what forms and applications I need to complete to open my Popcorn + Deckchairs franchise on Brixton High Street. Will I need protection money from the Street Dealers, etc...? :confused:
teuchter
06-05-2008, 15:56
And you can't spell. But that's besides the point.
Drug dealing, taking and growing your own for that matter, is illegal under British Law as it stands right now. You can't spin that any other way.
It doesn't matter that weed might be 'fairly harmless', but that doesn't change the legal perspective.
Drugs, and the crime often associated with it, are a blight upon the community at large, and does not just affect those who decide to directly buy/sell. Many drug addicts - not just weed but harder stuff - have to turn to crime to get the money to fund their habit. That not only makes places less desireable to live, but also lowers house prices too.
So, in all honesty, my original statement still stands, and if I chose to use profanities to emphasise my point it would have been worded much stronger.
So... if the street dealers in Brixton are magically disappeared,
Drugs, and the crime often associated with it, are a blight upon the community at large, and does not just affect those who decide to directly buy/sell. Many drug addicts - not just weed but harder stuff - have to turn to crime to get the money to fund their habit. That not only makes places less desireable to live, but also lowers house prices too.
All of this will be magically disappeared as well, will it?
detective-boy
06-05-2008, 16:47
You misunderstand the nature of the local violence. Unlike, say, Swindon, where chavs will administer a kicking to random targets purely for amusement, Brixton violence tends to be personal. It's usually gang-related or triggered by perceived disrespect. Innocent passers-by are rarely affected. (I can only think of one exception - the Polish woman in New Cross who was killed by a stray bullet.) I feel safer around here than in many parts of Britain. In fact I only know of one person who's been mugged in the three years I've lived here. There are so many cameras and police that street robbery can't be a very viable career option.
There is random violence in all parts of London, just as in provincial towns.
There are hundreds of street robberies and thefts from people every day.
These offences tend to "disappear" amongst the millions of people milling around London everyday whereas they stand out (and make the news) in somewhere like Swindon.
All your personal experience "proves" is that you don't know a lot of victims.
detective-boy
06-05-2008, 16:49
A big group of criminals (called the police) set the tone years and years ago with their efforts to plant drugs on people, give out beatings, falsify evidence, shoot peoples mothers in the back by "accident" etc.
ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
Your an ugly total fucking prick who should fuck off back to mummies before you get a wake up. And you can't spell. But that's besides the point.
Drug dealing, taking and growing your own for that matter, is illegal under British Law as it stands right now. You can't spin that any other way.
It doesn't matter that weed might be 'fairly harmless', but that doesn't change the legal perspective.
Drugs, and the crime often associated with it, are a blight upon the community at large, and does not just affect those who decide to directly buy/sell. Many drug addicts - not just weed but harder stuff - have to turn to crime to get the money to fund their habit. That not only makes places less desireable to live, but also lowers house prices too.
So, in all honesty, my original statement still stands, and if I chose to use profanities to emphasise my point it would have been worded much stronger.
ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
Cherry Groce, Operation Swamp, at least you all got a doing in 1985...
Your an ugly total fucking prick who should fuck off back to mummies before you get a wake up.
Is that the best you can manage? Try responding without profanity or getting personal, and you might find you get a little respect.
I can only assume the reason you don't have a problem with drug dealers is that you either are one, or use the services of them regularly.
mysterybadger
06-05-2008, 20:27
^^that was the full question - ie. how does moving it somewhere else solve the problem?
I'm not sure how much water the "you'll only move it some where else" argument really holds, it's a counsel of despair that could be used to urge inaction against any criminal or antisocial behavior.
We're not talking about simply moving people on but dispersing them. "Somewhere else" would take time to emerge and by definition be less attractive than Brixton, or the dealers would already be there. Where else in London has the same footprint of clubbers and concert goers?
peterkro
07-05-2008, 01:15
That not only makes places less desireable to live, but also lowers house prices too.
Lowers house prices? You poor baby. What makes a place desirable for me to live in may be different to that you desire,think on.
Lowers house prices? You poor baby. What makes a place desirable for me to live in may be different to that you desire,think on.
Of course we all have different 'desirable' things ... but then again, I am talking about people who actually pay for the homes they are living in.
Brixton has good transport links (well if you don't plan to use the tube after 10pm at least), lots of reasonably useful facilities such as supermarkets, a variety of entertainment venues, etc.
But it does have a reputation for drugs and crime, which are backed up almost weekly with 'incidents' of some description, and of course all that is tied in with the problem with dealers openly working on the streets which started this thread all off.
Of course we all have different 'desirable' things ... but then again, I am talking about people who actually pay for the homes they are living in.
If house prices were lower, maybe people could actually afford to buy houses...just a thought.
If house prices were lower, maybe people could actually afford to buy houses...just a thought.
London property prices are ridiculously high. I think that's one point we can definitely agree on.
I rent a one bedroomed flat. It's adequate for my needs but certainly no palace.
Is that the best you can manage? Try responding without profanity or getting personal, and you might find you get a little respect.
I can only assume the reason you don't have a problem with drug dealers is that you either are one, or use the services of them regularly.
I don't want your respect, I want to read about you in the South London Press.
I don't want your respect, I want to read about you in the South London Press.I've been featured in much classier publications for different reasons, I doubt if I do anything that the SLP would be interested in.
You never know, I can think of the headline that would make me smile.
peterkro
07-05-2008, 09:08
Onanist monthly?
Your an ugly total fucking prick who should fuck off back to mummies before you get a wake up.
I don't want your respect, I want to read about you in the South London Press.
You never know, I can think of the headline that would make me smile.
Get a grip. No more of this abuse please
Please accept my apologies.
ok. thanks. carry on folks.
I was idly clicking on links from links on the BBC website and came across this link from 2002.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2116975.stm
I wonder if the problem of 'open selling' we have in Brixton is as a result of this stupid policy, introduced by that fuckwit Paddick?
"Under the Lambeth experiment - introduced a year ago by former Lambeth police commander Brian Paddick - those found carrying small amounts of cannabis are given a warning by police, rather than prosecuted."
If what we suffer today in the Iceland-KFC corridor is because of this experiment then it only goes to show what a relief it was that Paddick got completely slaughtered in the mayoral elections.
citydreams
08-05-2008, 21:51
Actually it's not by choice. But it's a long story I need not repeat..
Please do.. I'd be interested to know how someone is forced to live somewhere they're so openly dismissive of.
Please do.. I'd be interested to know how someone is forced to live somewhere they're so openly dismissive of.Essentially the house comes with the job. As a single person, when someone needed the larger house I was occupying, where I am now was the smallest alternative place available and therefore it's mine.
As the job does not otherwise pay well enough to afford London rents, my only other solution is to find another job.
Which I am actively trying to do
detective-boy
09-05-2008, 07:39
I wonder if the problem of 'open selling' we have in Brixton is as a result of this stupid policy, introduced by that fuckwit Paddick?
"Under the Lambeth experiment - introduced a year ago by former Lambeth police commander Brian Paddick - those found carrying small amounts of cannabis are given a warning by police, rather than prosecuted."
All he did was regularise what had been the unofficial procedure for years (officers for as long as I can remember had been taking little bits of weed off people found during searches for other reasons (or where people were suitably contrite) and dropping them down grids to avoid pissing about wasting hours of time which could be more efficiently used. However this led to (a) the possibility of some officers keeping the confiscated stuff and (b) the possibility of officers being disciplined for failing to follow procedures if a complaint were made.
There is absolutely no way in a million years that police enforcement alone will have any significant affect on cannabis (or any other drug) use.
And government is totally fucked until it accepts the fact that alcohol causes way, way more harm (to others apart from the user, especially) and addresses that too. Until then their policy blatantly says "My drug, good. Your drug, bad". That will never work.
There is absolutely no way in a million years that police enforcement alone will have any significant affect on cannabis (or any other drug) use.Blame that on all the liberals who think that this behaviour is acceptable in a civilised society.
Nobody needs alcohol, or tobacco, or non-prescription drugs, to exist in life.
Too many people are dependent on these things without realising how pathetic that is.
citydreams
09-05-2008, 08:22
Blame that on all the liberals who think that this behaviour is acceptable in a civilised society.
.
Do you really think that you have a handle on what a civilised society is??? Wherever did you get that notion from??
teuchter
09-05-2008, 08:23
Blame that on all the liberals who think that this behaviour is acceptable in a civilised society.
Nobody needs alcohol, or tobacco, or non-prescription drugs, to exist in life.
Too many people are dependent on these things without realising how pathetic that is.
Are you able to grasp the concept that just because some people are dependent on these things, this does not mean that everyone is? That for some people they are a simple and fairly harmless pleasure?
Are you able to grasp the concept that just because some people are dependent on these things, this does not mean that everyone is? That for some people they are a simple and fairly harmless pleasure?
A simple, fairly harmless pleasure that can probably wait 30 minutes until you get off the tube.
poster342002
09-05-2008, 09:12
Please do.. I'd be interested to know how someone is forced to live somewhere they're so openly dismissive of.
Here's a newsflash for you, citydreams: people on low incomes (no idea about ajdown, but can speak for myself) don't get much choice where they live. We look for the most affordable, yet reasonably conditioned, accomodation we can find to match our wage. The "desirability" of the area doesn't come into the equation very much. And we don't necessarily think that having an area swarming with brazen drug dealers is especially nice or something that makes an area "vibrant".
A simple, fairly harmless pleasure that can probably wait 30 minutes until you get off the tube.
Wrong thread.
Here's a newsflash for you, citydreams: people on low incomes (no idea about ajdown, but can speak for myself) don't get much choice where they live. We look for the most affordable, yet reasonably conditioned, accomodation we can find to match our wage. The "desirability" of the area doesn't come into the equation very much. And we don't necessarily think that having an area swarming with brazen drug dealers is especially nice or something that makes an area "vibrant".
I work for a charity actually, bringing in probably less than half the salary that I could be if I had a similar level of responsibility job in the 'corporate world'. It's only because of a deal with work to live in one of their 'vacant properties' with the chance of moving to another one should it be needed by one of their other employees who needs to be in that area specifically, that I can even afford to have the job and live in London. Otherwise, as a single person with no hope of getting a mortgage, I'd be elsewhere anyway.
In the last 6 years I've lived in Camberwell, Oval, and now Brixton... all in 'less than the best' bits. I know some areas of Brixton are going 'upmarket' but although my street isn't one of the worst, it certainly isn't upmarket by any stretch of the imagination.
The more important thing for me is the transport access ... I can get to work in about an hour, plus other places I regularly need to get to are conveniently accessible. So it suits me for that, although I don't feel safe in going out at night - which is a restriction I need not have if it wasn't for the gangs, alcoholics and druggies that are all too abundant.
I work for a charity actually, bringing in probably less than half the salary that I could be if I had a similar level of responsibility job in the 'corporate world'. It's only because of a deal with work to live in one of their 'vacant properties' with the chance of moving to another one should it be needed by one of their other employees who needs to be in that area specifically, that I can even afford to have the job and live in London. Otherwise, as a single person with no hope of getting a mortgage, I'd be elsewhere anyway.
How much are you earning then...? When I first moved to London I was on £12,000 and could afford to rent a room in Brixton. I moved out when my salary reached £15,000. And if you look around you can find places with good transport links like Brixton that don't cost the earth...
Housing is expensive in London, but renting a room won't break the bank...
So it suits me for that, although I don't feel safe in going out at night - which is a restriction I need not have if it wasn't for the gangs, alcoholics and druggies that are all too abundant.
Eh...? On the other thread about drinking on the Tube you said you went out at night. You intimidated by all the beer cans...
Please get your story straight, Urban-Tobyjug...
FoxyMKII
09-05-2008, 09:40
How much are you earning then...? When I first moved to London I was on £12,000 and could afford to rent a room in Brixton. I moved out when my salary reached £15,000. And if you look around you can find places with good transport links like Brixton that don't cost the earth...
Housing is expensive in London, but renting a room won't break the bank...
Bloody Hell how long ago was that???????
Bloody Hell how long ago was that???????
It was a first crap job that I had while looking for something better...
teuchter
09-05-2008, 09:52
So it suits me for that, although I don't feel safe in going out at night - which is a restriction I need not have if it wasn't for the gangs, alcoholics and druggies that are all too abundant.
Have you ever actually tried going out at night? Or do you just get home, bolt all the doors, and hide behind the sofa?
Have you had some kind of bad experience that has left you so frightened?
I've lived in Brixton for more than eight years and never have I been hurt or troubled by gangs, alcoholics or druggies, despite frequently being out and about at all hours of the night. I'm not saying bad things don't happen, just not with anything like the frequency that some people seem to concoct in their heads.
I think your "restriction" is caused by your imagination more than anything else.
citydreams
09-05-2008, 10:02
Here's a newsflash for you, citydreams: people on low incomes (no idea about ajdown, but can speak for myself)...
Newsflash: I wasn't asking you. I'm sure your situation is typical of many households. I am interested in how Ajdown's situation is different.
I've lived in Brixton for more than eight years and never have I been hurt or troubled by gangs, alcoholics or druggies, despite frequently being out and about at all hours of the night. I'm not saying bad things don't happen, just not with anything like the frequency that some people seem to concoct in their heads.
When I lived in Brixton I was never scared of going out in the evening or late at night... And I've been there recently, and it hasn't changed *that* much...
Eh...? On the other thread about drinking on the Tube you said you went out at night. You intimidated by all the beer cans...
Please get your story straight, Urban-Tobyjug...
FFS. This man is not tobyjug, please stop accusing him. I've told you twice now.
FFS. This man is not tobyjug, please stop accusing him. I've told you twice now.
Ok, sorry, I don't think I saw the other time. I won't repeat it... :(
I think your "restriction" is caused by your imagination more than anything else.I know that, should I be 'set upon' by someone wanting my phone, or drug money or whatever, there is a reasonable chance that I would not be able to defend myself. Call me whatever you like, but it's just the way it is.
So, why put yourself in a position of risk unnecessarily?
For the record, as a occasional purchaser of bus stop weed, may I say that the police regulary stop and search skunk dealers all along Brixton High street. One time I had just been discreetly passed my deal and two plain clothes police targetted my now empty handed dealer.
teuchter
09-05-2008, 10:27
I know that, should I be 'set upon' by someone wanting my phone, or drug money or whatever, there is a reasonable chance that I would not be able to defend myself. Call me whatever you like, but it's just the way it is.
So, why put yourself in a position of risk unnecessarily?
Because the potential benefits outweigh the risks?
I know that, should I be 'set upon' by someone wanting my phone, or drug money or whatever, there is a reasonable chance that I would not be able to defend myself. Call me whatever you like, but it's just the way it is.
So, why put yourself in a position of risk unnecessarily?
But the chance of being mugged is actually quite small. And if you expect trouble and act scared you're more likely to be involved. Sounds like the media-led "Fear of Crime" has got you...
Some info on muggings: if I've read the stats correctly, the average number of muggings per month in Lambeth is 188. The Police target is 220! I have no idea what this says. Are we safer here than in Swindon or Liverpool or Little Snoring?
This is where I got the numbers from: http://www.downloads.lambethcpcg.org.uk/Police%20Report%200801.pdf. These are for the whole of Lambeth though. Coldharbour ward, i.e. the bulk of downtown Brixton, had a population of 14,376 in the 2001 census, just under 5% of Lambeth's total. Here's a ward map: http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/CouncilDemocracy/StatisticsCensusInformation/MapOfWards.htm)
If you compare '96 with '97 nearly all crimes seem to be coming down, with the notable exception of murder.
Does anybody here know how Lambeth's crime rate compares with the rest of the country?
Monkeygrinder's Organ
09-05-2008, 20:49
I know that, should I be 'set upon' by someone wanting my phone, or drug money or whatever, there is a reasonable chance that I would not be able to defend myself. Call me whatever you like, but it's just the way it is.
So, why put yourself in a position of risk unnecessarily?
I know that, should I be hit by a bus whilst crossing the road, I'd be pretty much squashed like a bug.
Why take the risk?
I know that, should I be hit by a bus whilst crossing the road, I'd be pretty much squashed like a bug.
Why take the risk?
That's why you stop, look and listen. Didn't you learn the Green Cross Code as a kid?
Monkeygrinder's Organ
09-05-2008, 21:11
That's why you stop, look and listen. Didn't you learn the Green Cross Code as a kid?
:rolleyes:
Blame that on all the liberals who think that this behaviour is acceptable in a civilised society.
Nobody needs alcohol, or tobacco, or non-prescription drugs, to exist in life.
Too many people are dependent on these things without realising how pathetic that is.
You sound like a right bundle of laughs.
You sound like a right bundle of laughs.I'm quite content with my lifestyle, thankyou for your support.
mysterybadger
10-05-2008, 08:01
<i>The average number of muggings per month in Lambeth is 188. The Police target is 220! I have no idea what this says</i>
It says the police need to get out and mug more people.
Seriously, though, borough crime statistics don't mean that much as the boroughs are so big. Street crime is a street-by-street thing, and robberies for drug money will happen very close to where the dealing occurs.
In Brixton, this would seem to involves following someone off the tube until they turn into the maze of streets behind the Ritzy. So if anyone has statstfor that little area, it might shed some light on the debate
Some info on muggings: if I've read the stats correctly, the average number of muggings per month in Lambeth is 188. The Police target is 220! I have no idea what this says. Are we safer here than in Swindon or Liverpool or Little Snoring?
This is where I got the numbers from: http://www.downloads.lambethcpcg.org.uk/Police%20Report%200801.pdf. These are for the whole of Lambeth though. Coldharbour ward, i.e. the bulk of downtown Brixton, had a population of 14,376 in the 2001 census, just under 5% of Lambeth's total. Here's a ward map: http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/CouncilDemocracy/StatisticsCensusInformation/MapOfWards.htm)
If you compare '96 with '97 nearly all crimes seem to be coming down, with the notable exception of murder.
Does anybody here know how Lambeth's crime rate compares with the rest of the country?
It's available - I've seen it in the past. You can get it down to the census 'Super Output Areas' - which are areas of about 1,000 people.
The worst places in Lambeth on those measures of things like robbery are (in my recollection) in the worst few percent of places in the country.
Much as I love Brixton it can't be denied that we have a pretty bad crime problem.
Here's lots of data at very local level:
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/CouncilDemocracy/StatisticsCensusInformation/IndicesOfDeprivation.htm
One of the (very few) sensible things suggested by Boris Johnson was that crime stats get published on a map to encourage community involvement in analysing / preventing crime / putting pressure on the police. This has been done in America to some success. So you might start seeing those maps in a year or two...
citydreams
10-05-2008, 09:04
So you might start seeing those maps in a year or two...
It shouldn't need to take a year or two..
Software such as MapInfo, or ArcGIS, is cheap and easy to use.
TfL paid for London borough's street gazetteer, so all London roads are mapped already.
If councils wanted to implement this policy they could do so within a couple of weeks.
It's available - I've seen it in the past. You can get it down to the census 'Super Output Areas' - which are areas of about 1,000 people.
The worst places in Lambeth on those measures of things like robbery are (in my recollection) in the worst few percent of places in the country.
Much as I love Brixton it can't be denied that we have a pretty bad crime problem.
... which, by the removal of drug dealers, will without a shadow of doubt, begin to lower these figures.
A deterrance as much as action is probably all it needs. More plain clothes police wandering the streets, waiting to have 'skunk' whispered in their ear, to make an arrest, question, mark and release... then when the same faces keep turning up again and again, there should be enough firm evidence to get them sent down and out of the area.
Sure, it'll increase the amount of work the police have to do, and possibly increase taxes to cover - but I think it's money well spent.
Drugs have become too 'acceptable' in today's society, and that needs to change.
It shouldn't need to take a year or two..
Software such as MapInfo, or ArcGIS, is cheap and easy to use.
TfL paid for London borough's street gazetteer, so all London roads are mapped already.
If councils wanted to implement this policy they could do so within a couple of weeks.
I suspect the issue would be getting the data from the police on each crime as it occurs. Does each crime have a postcode attached to it on some sort of relatively easy to download from system? If so I'd guess it should be relatively easy.
Personally I can think of all sorts of things we can start doing once this data becomes available... I think that long term it could have quite an impact on crime.
citydreams
10-05-2008, 13:04
Software is point to location and click to store a registry.
I guess they would have trouble if the crime occured on a moving bus though..
But otherwise this should also serve to improve police procedure as they would have to ask the victim exactly where an incident had happened. This could then flag any other known incidents of a similiar nature that might have occured in that vicinity.. even going so far as instantaneously bringing up mug-shots &c.
Scotland Yard already use geostatistical analysis to help them investigate serious crime.
The maths behind it is quite simple... e.g the Rayleigh distribution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_distribution)
detective-boy
10-05-2008, 13:09
I suspect the issue would be getting the data from the police on each crime as it occurs. Does each crime have a postcode attached to it on some sort of relatively easy to download from system? If so I'd guess it should be relatively easy.
Personally I can think of all sorts of things we can start doing once this data becomes available... I think that long term it could have quite an impact on crime.
Police have been analysing crime based in MapInfo and similar packages for at least ten years now. The data is all available. It just isn't published in that format nationally.
I'm quite content with my lifestyle, thankyou for your support.
stop your fucking whinging about other people's then
stop your fucking whinging about other people's then
I am able to regulate my lifestyle so that nothing I do causes any distress or uncomfort to my fellow paying passengers.
As not everyone has that level of self-control, then it is up to us good citizens to help them to raise themselves up to where we are.
It is an obligation I undertake with pleasure.
I am able to regulate my lifestyle so that nothing I do causes any distress or uncomfort to my fellow paying passengers.
As not everyone has that level of self-control, then it is up to us good citizens to help them to raise themselves up to where we are.
It is an obligation I undertake with pleasure.
oh fuck off
oh fuck off
After you, my friend.
I want the Effra to be full of Windy boys, not white football fans.
It's full of both, what's wrong with that?
... which, by the removal of drug dealers, will without a shadow of doubt, begin to lower these figures.
A deterrance as much as action is probably all it needs. More plain clothes police wandering the streets, waiting to have 'skunk' whispered in their ear, to make an arrest, question, mark and release... then when the same faces keep turning up again and again, there should be enough firm evidence to get them sent down and out of the area.
Sure, it'll increase the amount of work the police have to do, and possibly increase taxes to cover - but I think it's money well spent.
Drugs have become too 'acceptable' in today's society, and that needs to change.
Werll its a view I guess not just one I or many others would agree with. iwould rather lock up po faced people like you for simply existing.
Werll its a view I guess not just one I or many others would agree with. iwould rather lock up po faced people like you for simply existing.
It doesn't really matter whether you agree with it or not, but drugs are against the laws of this land.
Existing, however, is not a crime. Without drugs or alcohol to abuse my body, chances are I'll exist for a lot longer than many of the people around here too.
I know I'm not the "regular poster" type round here but that doesn't mean I don't have the right to be here.
teuchter
12-05-2008, 09:08
It doesn't really matter whether you agree with it or not, but drugs are against the laws of this land.
Existing, however, is not a crime. Without drugs or alcohol to abuse my body, chances are I'll exist for a lot longer than many of the people around here too.
I know I'm not the "regular poster" type round here but that doesn't mean I don't have the right to be here.
Do you think our existing drugs laws are sensible, effective, laws, or do you want so see them enforced simply because they *are* the law?
I wonder if aj knows that having a tipple can increase your lifespan, and most people > 100 years have said this... :confused: :rolleyes:
And since when did anyone have a "right" to post on U75...? We're only allowed to because the Editors a nice chap. :confused::rolleyes:
I think Ajsdowen is a bit of a cove.
Do you think our existing drugs laws are sensible, effective, laws, or do you want so see them enforced simply because they *are* the law?
I live my life without drugs, so it's hard for me to understand why anyone else would want to.
As a result, I'd have no problem with them all being banned and the law enforced vigorously.
However, I am aware that there are some medical situations where 'a little weed' can be beneficial. But that doesn't mean anyone should be able to take 'recreational drugs' at any time for any or no reason.
Sure, some people enjoy the 'high' or the 'chill' from whatever they're taking ... but does it really bring any long term benefit? If it's to deal with stress, for example, might it not be better to deal with the stress itself rather than just trying to mask the effects on a temporary basis?
And since when did anyone have a "right" to post on U75...? We're only allowed to because the Editors a nice chap. :confused::rolleyes:
Some people think they have a 'right' to drink alcohol on London Transport.
I live my life without drugs, so it's hard for me to understand why anyone else would want to.
As a result, I'd have no problem with them all being banned and the law enforced vigorously.
So : I don't like them, therefore no-one should do them... Always a winner, that...
Some people think they have a 'right' to drink alcohol on London Transport.
Because you don't like drinking, therefore no-one is allowed to, either.
I don't like Poodles. Doesn't give me the right to demand no-one ever keeps one, does it...? :rolleyes:
I live my life without drugs
Bet you a million quid you don't.
I think Ajsdowen is a bit of a cove.
You misspelt my name, but a what? I have no idea what that term means.
Bet you a million quid you don't.
I don't do any illegal drugs, I also don't smoke, touch alcohol, or even drink coffee for that matter.
Apart from the occasional packet of Migraleve, I don't like medical stuff either. I'd rather the body healed itself.
I don't do any illegal drugs, I also don't smoke, touch alcohol, or even drink coffee for that matter.
Is that for religious reasons? (Not having a go, just curious.)
I don't do any illegal drugs, I also don't smoke, touch alcohol, or even drink coffee for that matter.
Apart from the occasional packet of Migraleve, I don't like medical stuff either. I'd rather the body healed itself.
I wonder how long that would last if you happened to be involved in a car crash, etc...
I don't do any illegal drugs, I also don't smoke, touch alcohol, or even drink coffee for that matter.
Apart from the occasional packet of Migraleve, I don't like medical stuff either. I'd rather the body healed itself.
Bloody hell, that one backfired!
Good for you, just don't tell me what to do with my body :)
You misspelt my name, but a what? I have no idea what that term means.
I used in place of a phrase that would not be forgiven in use here too easily.
Is that for religious reasons? (Not having a go, just curious.)
Nope... just always been that way.
I wonder how long that would last if you happened to be involved in a car crash, etc...
If it's a matter of life or death, then I guess there isn't a lot I can do about it, especially if I'm not even conscious to make that decision.
I don't "carry a card" like Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, refusing any medical treatment.
I, or my loved ones, would have to make those decisions at the time based on the circumstances. The preferable option, of course, is not to be in that situation at all :)
teuchter
12-05-2008, 11:32
I live my life without drugs, so it's hard for me to understand why anyone else would want to.
As a result, I'd have no problem with them all being banned and the law enforced vigorously.
Would you include alcohol and caffeine in your list of things to ban?
If so I'm interested to know how, why and where you would draw the line. What is your definition of a drug? Is it anything that is ingested which has some effect on the body that is not strictly necessary for survival?
What about chocolate, for example?
I, or my loved ones, would have to make those decisions at the time based on the circumstances. The preferable option, of course, is not to be in that situation at all :)
That's fair enough, but I don't see how you can make decisions for other people...
That's fair enough, but I don't see how you can make decisions for other people...
Perhaps he is new labour?
Perhaps he is new labour?
When it comes to politics, I'm a fully paid up, card carrying member of the Apathetic Party.
Would you include alcohol and caffeine in your list of things to ban?
If so I'm interested to know how, why and where you would draw the line. What is your definition of a drug? Is it anything that is ingested which has some effect on the body that is not strictly necessary for survival?
What about chocolate, for example?
It's a tough decision, and especially so when I'm not in any position to do anything about it.
I'd love to ban coffee, because there's somewhere selling it on every freakin corner.
Sure, some people enjoy the 'high' or the 'chill' from whatever they're taking
Too right Daddio!
... but does it really bring any long term benefit? If it's to deal with stress, for example, might it not be better to deal with the stress itself rather than just trying to mask the effects on a temporary basis?
I'll let you into a little secret Mr Down - a lot of people take drugs because they're really good fun.
Now, who's going to have a go at explaining to him the concept of 'fun'?
teuchter
12-05-2008, 12:02
It's a tough decision, and especially so when I'm not in any position to do anything about it.
I'd love to ban coffee, because there's somewhere selling it on every freakin corner.
So, you're not going to try and answer the question, then.
I'll let you into a little secret Mr Down - a lot of people take drugs because they're really good fun.But weighed up against all the potential dangers - seems to me like bungee jumping without checking the other end of the rope is anchored firmly.
So, you're not going to try and answer the question, then.
I can't really, no, because what *I* might want is not going to be very popular, or easily enforced. But then again, I'm not running for political office so I don't have to justify anything or gain anyone's support.
But weighed up against all the potential dangers - seems to me like bungee jumping without checking the other end of the rope is anchored firmly.
Only if you ignore those dangers, or are poorly informed of them.
After all, driving would be a completely suicidal practice if you had no training in the operation of the vehicle, or the rules of the road. It's the same with a lot of drugs. Many of the dangers of drugs are avoidable or can be mitigated. Done properly, it's like bungee jumping with a highly redundant bungie cord from a secure platform attended by trained staff.
But weighed up against all the potential dangers - seems to me like bungee jumping without checking the other end of the rope is anchored firmly.
Well done, you've successfully swallowed the Govt's line. Any chance you actually want to educate yourself on the real dangers...?
I can't really, no, because what *I* might want is not going to be very popular, or easily enforced. But then again, I'm not running for political office so I don't have to justify anything or gain anyone's support.
You do if you're going to be taken seriously here. Daily Mail forums are --->
You do if you're going to be taken seriously here. Daily Mail forums are --->
I'm not needing to be taken seriously here. What I say or do makes little difference in the grand scheme of things. I'm here so i can keep in touch with what's happening in my area.
I'm not needing to be taken seriously here. What I say or do makes little difference in the grand scheme of things. I'm here so i can keep in touch with what's happening in my area.
...and to tell the people you live among how to run their lives, even though you have no real understanding of them... :hmm:
That's fair enough, but I don't see how you can make decisions for other people...
You going tell us what makes you special and allows you to run our lives for us. Or are you going to avoid answering...? :rolleyes:
...and to tell the people you live among how to run their lives, even though you have no real understanding of them... :hmm:
Isn't that what people are telling me though? Wondering what's wrong me me to shun drugs, alcohol, smoking, whatever, and 'their way' - whatever the addiction might be - is somehow better?
You going tell us what makes you special and allows you to run our lives for us. Or are you going to avoid answering...? :rolleyes:
Where did I say I'm special? Where did I say I'm trying to run anyone's life? Nothing I can say or do here will make the slightest bit of difference to anyone's life unless they choose for themselves to take on board anything I say.
The same goes for everyone else.
Isn't that what people are telling me though? Wondering what's wrong me me to shun drugs, alcohol, smoking, whatever, and 'their way' - whatever the addiction might be - is somehow better?
Oh...? Can you point to a post that I've made that says someone has to take drugs...? I also can't remember a post any one else made saying you have to :confused:
Oh, and I hate to break it you, not everyone who drinks or takes drugs is addicted...
Where did I say I'm special? Where did I say I'm trying to run anyone's life? Nothing I can say or do here will make the slightest bit of difference to anyone's life unless they choose for themselves to take on board anything I say.
The same goes for everyone else.
You agree that banning drinking on the tube is a good thing. Even though it won't actually do anything. You also want to get rid of street dealing, even though that doesn't cause serious problems.
And it appears to come down to your miseducation and personal beliefs, rather than any actual hard evidence.
teuchter
12-05-2008, 13:01
I'm not needing to be taken seriously here. What I say or do makes little difference in the grand scheme of things. I'm here so i can keep in touch with what's happening in my area.
If you're just here to "keep in touch" then why are you posting up your opinions all over the shop?
On the one hand you're complaining about the "dealer scum" making brixton untidy and causing you distress by whispering things at you, and then on the other hand you're cluttering up these boards with statements that you have no intention of backing up......
If you're just here to "keep in touch" then why are you posting up your opinions all over the shop?
On the one hand you're complaining about the "dealer scum" making brixton untidy and causing you distress by whispering things at you, and then on the other hand you're cluttering up these boards with statements that you have no intention of backing up......
Participation is part of the reason for being here, where appropriate and/or necessary.
Participation is part of the reason for being here, where appropriate and/or necessary.
If you don't back anything up you'll find the participation will be frosty. Oh, and look... You haven't answered my question. At all :rolleyes:
Outstanding questions:
* Where do I state one has to do drugs...? And where has anyone else stated this.
* Given your opinions on drinking on the tube and street dealing, as well your mis-guided beliefs, why can you tell people what to do...?
:confused:
ajdown you sound like a walking talking human rendition of the Daily Mail.
ajdown you sound like a walking talking human rendition of the Daily Mail.
I don't buy a newspaper... why should any particular set of opinions be tied to any newspaper or any political viewpoint?
Am I not allowed to just 'be me' without being labelled?
I don't buy a newspaper... why should any particular set of opinions be tied to any newspaper or any political viewpoint?
Am I not allowed to just 'be me' without being labelled?
From the Troll Primer :
* Ignore any questions that are difficult to answer and will expose holes in your argument.
* Post up "woe is me, everyone's being horrible" posts
:rolleyes:
FYI, you can have any opinion you want. :hmm:
I live my life without drugs,
No alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee, sugar, chocolate, aspirin, paracetamol?
That's what he says. I wouldn't count sugar.
Isn't that what people are telling me though? Wondering what's wrong me me to shun drugs, alcohol, smoking, whatever, and 'their way' - whatever the addiction might be - is somehow better?
Errrr...it was you telling other people how to run their lives if you read back.
That's what he says. I wouldn't count sugar.
Sugar has a definite affect on mood.
No alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee, sugar, chocolate, aspirin, paracetamol?
No alcohol, tobacco, tea or coffee. By choice.
Sugar is not a 'drug' in the traditional sense. It's a food additive (and no, hash flapjacks don't count).
Chocolate/aspirin/paracetomol are outside of the remit of this discussion because they aren't illegal, I've never seen anyone outside Woolworths whisper in my ear "Twix?"
Are you American, ajdown?
No alcohol, tobacco, tea or coffee. By choice.
Sugar is not a 'drug' in the traditional sense. It's a food additive (and no, hash flapjacks don't count).
Chocolate/aspirin/paracetomol are outside of the remit of this discussion because they aren't illegal, I've never seen anyone outside Woolworths whisper in my ear "Twix?"
Sugar is a substance which alters mood, as is chocolate, so would seem to fit the definition of drug. Maybe the reason you don't see people "outside Woolworths whisper in my ear "Twix?"" is precisely because they are legal.
Are you American, ajdown?No, English :)
Sugar is a substance which alters mood, as is chocolate, so would seem to fit the definition of drug. Maybe the reason you don't see people "outside Woolworths whisper in my ear "Twix?"" is precisely because they are legal.
So why are people confusing legal and illegal drugs in this conversation? You can't really compare the two.
So why are people confusing legal and illegal drugs in this conversation? You can't really compare the two.
What's the difference (apart from the obvious)? You're not labouring under the misapprehension that illegality Vs legality necessarily denotes harm are you?
What's the difference (apart from the obvious)? You're not labouring under the misapprehension that illegality Vs legality necessarily denotes harm are you?