"Of course I operate a colour bar" says licensee: Brixton 1960

[editor]

http://landmark.lambeth.gov.uk/siteimages/pic06/fullsize/05415.jpg

A look at Brixton life, 1960. The pub (http://landmark.lambeth.gov.uk/display_page.asp?section=landmark_fullsize&id=6288) - which stood at the corner of Milkwood Road and Heron Road - has since been demolished.

http://landmark.lambeth.gov.uk/display_page.asp?section=landmark_fullsize&id=5411

[co-op]

I love the SLP's slant - "Always quick to seize upon any apparent injustices involving coloured people..."

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Would "coloured" people then have objected to being called coloured or had they started to call themselves black?

When would newspapers have stopped using the word coloured?

[hipipol]

seems to have closed not long after......

"Starless and Bible Black..........."

[Gixxer1000]

Would "coloured" people then have objected to being called coloured or had they started to call themselves black?

:rolleyes:
<Bites tongue walks away shaking head sadly>

[Minnie_the_Minx]

:rolleyes:
<Bites tongue walks away shaking head sadly>


I do apologise, but a friend of mine growing up in the 70s objected to being called black and insisted on being called coloured. 10 years later when I met her again she got pissed off with being called coloured and demanded she was referred to as black.

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I KNEW someone would come along with the above comment but I still posted my post anyway.

I'd rather be honest and post about my ignorance than keep my mouth shut. So feel free to educate me

[Stobart Stopper]

It's unthinkable isn't it? That is was allowed to happen?
I read some of that out to my son earlier and he didn't believe it.

[Thora]

:rolleyes:
<Bites tongue walks away shaking head sadly>
Why the :rolleyes: ?

[Neil-NewX]

Similar stories throughout SE London in 50s and 60s, e.g. Dartmouth Arms in Forest Hill was picketed by anti-racists in 60s. Its now a trendy gastro pub. I sympathise with critiques of gentrification of pubs, but its also important to acknowledge that the old boozers weren't all these great islands of liberation either, especially if you were black, gay or a woman.

[co-op]

I KNEW someone would come along with the above comment but I still posted my post anyway.

I'd rather be honest and post about my ignorance than keep my mouth shut. So feel free to educate me

I think it's a reasonable question - I don't know the answer, 'black' took over as a result of black power and reclaiming the word stuff, so probably in the late 60s, early 70s? But I remember that 'black' was an insulting term for the older generation - I remember Shirley Bassey saying that if anyone had called her black when she was a kid there'd have been a fight. And probably the largest/historically most important African-American organisation is the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, although I'd have thought that must be an anachronism even in the States now. I'm always expecting them to re-brand themselves, but I just wikipediaed it and it seems they are soldiering on.

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I think it's a reasonable question - I don't know the answer, 'black' took over as a result of black power and reclaiming the word stuff, so probably in the late 60s, early 70s? But I remember that 'black' was an insulting term for the older generation - I remember Shirley Bassey saying that if anyone had called her black when she was a kid there'd have been a fight. And probably the largest/historically most important African-American organisation is the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, although I'd have thought that must be an anachronism even in the States now. I'm always expecting them to re-brand themselves, but I just wikipediaed it and it seems they are soldiering on.


Thank you co-op. Maybe I just worded it a way Gixxer didn't understand :o

[Thora]

I think it's a reasonable question - I don't know the answer, 'black' took over as a result of black power and reclaiming the word stuff, so probably in the late 60s, early 70s? But I remember that 'black' was an insulting term for the older generation - I remember Shirley Bassey saying that if anyone had called her black when she was a kid there'd have been a fight. And probably the largest/historically most important African-American organisation is the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, although I'd have thought that must be an anachronism even in the States now. I'm always expecting them to re-brand themselves, but I just wikipediaed it and it seems they are soldiering on.
I think the Americans go in for "People of Colour" rather than "Coloured People" these days.

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I think the Americans go in for "People of Colour" rather than "Coloured People" these days.


How colourful

[jæd]

I think the Americans go in for "People of Colour" rather than "Coloured People" these days.

Last time I was in the US I got an evil look because I asked a "person of color" if she could give me a black coffee... :rolleyes:

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Last time I was in the US I got an evil look because I asked a "person of color" if she could give me a black coffee... :rolleyes:


You are joking? :eek:

What are you supposed to ask for then, coffee with no milk? Dark brown coffee?

[jæd]

You are joking? :eek:

What are you supposed to ask for then, coffee with no milk? Dark brown coffee?

No sure... I usually ask for "Americano" when in the US now...

[Minnie_the_Minx]

No sure... I usually ask for "Americano" when in the US now...


I take it Americano is a black, er sorry, coloured, er, no that's not right

a coffee without milk?

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Entry in Wiki

Americano (coffee)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americano_%28coffee%29#column-one), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americano_%28coffee%29#searchInput)
Americano (also café américano) is a style of coffee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_%28drink%29) prepared by adding espresso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espresso) to hot water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water), giving a similar strength but different flavor than regular drip coffee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drip_coffee) (the strength of any Americano can be varied by increasing the number of shots of espresso added). Like espresso, Americano tends to be an acquired taste, and many drinkers prefer it black and unsweetened to fully appreciate the differences in taste from regular coffee.

This variety of coffee is not to be confused with the Australian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia) long black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_black), as their preparation method differs slightly (long black is with espresso added after water, not vice versa).

A variation of the beverage is the Iced Americano. Instead of hot water, baristas add cold water and ice to the espresso.
[/URL]
Origin

One popular explanation for the name is that it was originally intended as an insult to [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States"]Americans (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/), who wanted their espresso diluted. During the Second World War, American Allies in Italy searched for the "cup of joe" they were accustomed to at home, which local baristas tried to emulate for them.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americano_%28coffee%29#_note-mission) If this is the case, many American coffee drinkers are either unaware of or unfazed by the derogatory nature of the name, even in some cases going so far as to misinterpret americano as being a uniquely American way to drink espresso. Regardless of the true origins of the name, it is clear that americano was not popular in the United States until the explosion of chain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchising) coffeehouses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffeehouse), such as Starbucks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starbucks), in the 1990s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s). Even now, Americano is far from the most popular coffee drink consumed in U.S. coffeehouses.

Though they both contain espresso, red eye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_eye_%28drink%29) is made by adding drip coffee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drip_brew) rather than hot water.

Americano is made by pulling a normal shot of espresso, then adding hot water; unlike a lungo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lungo), the additional water in an americano does not pass through the coffee grounds.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]

[BrixiSteve]

I do apologise, but a ..........

What the hell are you apologising for ....? I thought your question was interesting.


Am I missing something? :confused:

[co-op]

I think the Americans go in for "People of Colour" rather than "Coloured People" these days.


Now I definitely do remember "person of colour" coming in - 1980s, definitely, at the time the left was inventing a newer righter-on-than-thou term for every "marginalised" group, and then inventing yet another one next week. You had to have a good memory.

I'd have thought 'person of colour' (and its good friend 'woman of colour' - did anything get righter-on than that?) are both a bit out of fashion now, I haven't heard either for a while. I thought that half the point of 'African-American' was to define - er - African-Americans - by their culture/geographical-origin, rather than by a physical characteristic, thus treating them as a group in the same way that any other immigrant ethnicity is treated in the USA (Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans etc etc).

[Minnie_the_Minx]

What the hell are you apologising for ....? I thought your question was interesting.


Am I missing something? :confused:


I should have put a rollie-eyed smilie after my apology, but I didn't want to start an argument :D

[Winot]

I thought that half the point of 'African-American' was to define - er - African-Americans - by their culture/geographical-origin, rather than by a physical characteristic, thus treating them as a group in the same way that any other immigrant ethnicity is treated in the USA (Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans etc etc).

Apparently another area of controversy is whether it is 'African-American' or 'African American'. No idea whether the hyphen is meant to be good or bad.

[Gixxer1000]

Why the :rolleyes: ?

Guess it was the generalisation that stereotyped the way "they" thought.

Innocuous enough though.

[Orang Utan]

A colour bar operates to a certain degree even now. A certain notorious establishment in Brixton has been known to turn away black people. A friend DJed for them was told he played too much 'black' music.

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Guess it was the generalisation that stereotyped the way "they" thought.

Innocuous enough though.


Well, I'm still not sure what I did wrong other than wording it in a way that you don't like and I'm still not entirely sure what you're getting at.

Is this any better:

In what year did "coloured" people (in general) decide that they'd prefer to be called black, and in what year did newspapers stop referring to blacks as coloured?

Any better?

Probably not, but I'm not really sure EXACTLY what your point is :confused:

[lang rabbie]

I recall a surreal conversation while sitting on Streatham Common in 1990 with three [non-white] neighours who had come from South Africa. The most recently arrival from SA needed confirmation from me (the token white liberal) that if I referred to him as "black" it was a neutral rather than a derogatory term - he thought his black housemates were having him on when they said that black was accepted usage in the UK.

His self identity was still as a "coloured person" - which from my sketchy knowledge of South Africa's ludicrous pass laws gave you a marginally higher status than being a "native".

But surely, for most black Britons, the change of usage was much earlier than that.:confused:

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I recall a surreal conversation while sitting on Streatham Common in 1990 with three [non-white] neighours who had come from South Africa. The most recently arrival from SA needed confirmation from me (the token white liberal) that if I referred to him as "black" it was a neutral rather than a derogatory term - he thought his black housemates were having him on when they said that black was accepted usage in the UK.

His self identity was still as a "coloured person" - which from my sketchy knowledge of South Africa's ludicrous pass laws gave you a marginally higher status than being a "native".

But surely, for most black Britons, the change of usage was much earlier than that.:confused:


I think so, because I'm sure I met my friend who used to refer to herself as "coloured" in the early to mid-80s and she then referred to herself as "black" and gave me a bollocking for talking about "coloured" people

[Mrs Magpie]

In what year did "coloured" people (in general) decide that they'd prefer to be called black, and in what year did newspapers stop referring to blacks as coloured?We had a Zulu lodger in the early sixties who insisted he was black as opposed to coloured although the 'polite' term at the time was coloured. I remember the real change came about during the 'Black is Beautiful' and 'Young Gifted & Black'' era which was American influenced although at that time I don't remember any American black people in our house, just Africans and one woman from Martinique. The only Americans I remember were white 'Stateless' men who'd renounced their American citizenship because of the Vietnam war who didn't want to be drafted. I remember loads of discussion when Cassius Clay changed his name to Mohammed Ali. It was around that whole time.

[lang rabbie]

Only once is it acknowledged that the early settlers faced discrimination. On April 1, 1952 the chief inspector of Brixton Station ‘L’ Division wrote in a report titled The Coloured Population of London – Moral Problems and Anti-Social behaviour as affecting Brixton: ‘The influx of West Africans into the Brixton area has given rise to a certain amount of prejudice on the part of a small section of the white population,’ he said.

‘From discreet enquiries it has become known to police that some employers of labour are reluctant to engage coloured personnel. ‘Many employers too are reluctant to work beside men of colour.’

Compared with the reports from other parts of London, this guy responsible for Brixton policing fifty years before Brian Paddick appears to have been a bleeding heart liberal ...


http://www.newnation.co.uk/iframe_story.asp?NID=1430

[zenazena]

I think so, because I'm sure I met my friend who used to refer to herself as "coloured" in the early to mid-80s and she then referred to herself as "black" and gave me a bollocking for talking about "coloured" people

i grew up in brixton from the early 70s and remember many people referred to themselves as being 'coloured' rather than black - i was young so its a bit hazy but i kind of remember thinking calling someone 'black' was not the done thing.

[Minnie_the_Minx]

i grew up in brixton from the early 70s and remember many people referred to themselves as being 'coloured' rather than black - i was young so its a bit hazy but i kind of remember thinking calling someone 'black' was not the done thing.

I always thought you were younger :D

[laptop]

In what year did "coloured" people (in general) decide that they'd prefer to be called black

Well, it'd have taken a time to spread through different groups, wouldn't it?

As I remember it, in the UK only those most plugged-in to events and campaigning would have thought of calling themselves "black" before the Black Power salute at the 1968 Olympics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Olympics_Black_Power_salute).

Then, it'd have been the young, flexible, or politicised.

I'm sure I remember older people preferring the "polite" term chosen for them by liberal society into the 1980s.

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Well, it'd have taken a time to spread through different groups, wouldn't it?

As I remember it, in the UK only those most plugged-in to events and campaigning would have thought of calling themselves "black" before the Black Power salute at the 1968 Olympics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Olympics_Black_Power_salute).

Then, it'd have been the young, flexible, or politicised.

I'm sure I remember older people preferring the "polite" term chosen for them by liberal society into the 1980s.


OK, I didn't mean year, "years" would have been better :D

and still nobody has answered my question about when newspapers stopped using the term. Did that happen with one paper doing it and the rest caught on overnight or did it just happen so gradually that you probably weren't even aware that it had happened?

[co-op]

I remember the real change came about during the 'Black is Beautiful' and 'Young Gifted & Black'' era which was American influenced although at that time I don't remember any American black people in our house, just Africans and one woman from Martinique.


The intellectual roots for "black" and "blackness" go back to the Negritude movement (- as it is still known in English, although it is arguably a mistranslation or bad loan-word? probably a better version is the "Blackness" movement) - mainly French-speaking African and Caribbean intellectuals who met in Paris in the 20s and 30s. They founded journals with titles like L'Etudiant Noir and La Revue du Monde Noir which explicitly looked to reclaim the word (negre - having had perjorative connotations in French prior to this).

[/LECTURE] :)

[Xeno]

Going to change the subject. I once had to look through a bunch of old SLPs from the 60s.

On the small ads of an edition from 1964 they announced with regret that they would no longer accept adverts for rented accommodation that specified "no coloureds". And that was probably only because the Race Relations Act was just about to come in.

(Just in case anyone was thinking that the above news item from 1960s showed SLP to be progressive in any way.)

[co-op]

(Just in case anyone was thinking that the above news item from 1960s showed SLP to be progressive in any way.)

I thought it showed the SLP as the opposite of progressive. It was like they were floundering around for "it's political correctness gone mad!" to describe the anti-'colour bar' observers but didn't have the verbal technology available that today's media idiots have.

[Xeno]

I thought it showed the SLP as the opposite of progressive. It was like they were floundering around for "it's political correctness gone mad!" to describe the anti-'colour bar' observers but didn't have the verbal technology available that today's media idiots have.


You're right. My bad. Come to think of it, maybe we should get SLP to do some kind of "sorry for slavery" routine, e.g. "Throughout most of our history we were a racist rag. Not any more. Sorry."