View Full Version : Clone Town Brixton
antjamesb
12-11-2007, 12:07
I've been keeping up with this forum for some time but have only just decided to post something.
I am a researcher involved in local government (not for Lambeth Council) and am interested in getting some views on the future of Brixton high street. I've seen some comments on the appearance of Costa and other views on the market etc but I wanted to try and get a more rounded view of residents concerns as to where we are going.
For example, friends of mine are keen to see a Starbucks - I know it is usually the most hated of global brands but they believe it might create a psychological tippping point in the way we (particulary non-Brixtoners) see the area leading to more inward investment. More personally, they think other friends will be more willing to see Brixton as 'nice' place to come once recognisable brands appear on the street. Others think that will just mean 'gentrification' and will signal the end of the unique character and community feel we have now.
From what I have read I'm sure you all have strong views on this. I would be grateful to hear what you think. In particular, what should the council be doing (if anything) to drive it in a particular direction?
Tell me to get stuffed if you'd prefer, but I might use a couple of quotes in the research where they are appropriate.
Looking forward to hearing your views
Cheers
'Inward investment' means investment in what, and who? This is the question I'd put to anyone keen to see a Starbucks on the highstreet.
christonabike
12-11-2007, 12:20
I've seen some comments on the appearance of Costa
Is there a Costa Coffee in Brixton now?
Is there a Costa Coffee in Brixton now?There is, but it's slightly hidden away upstairs at Morleys.
There's a nero's in morleys, but I had no idea there was a costa. Where?
I prefer to make my own coffee btw.
Oh hang on, one of us is confused :)
ramjamclub
12-11-2007, 12:32
I lived in Brixton for many years until 1973. For about 20 years have not been back. From what I can see from the photo's posted on Urban it has deteriorated more so than in 1973. Brixton always had a soul and was special compared to neighbouring areas. Putting multi chain shops will not enhance it I feel. Supporting the local businesses, would be more appropriate I feel to serve the colourful community it represents.
For example, friends of mine are keen to see a Starbucks - I know it is usually the most hated of global brands but they believe it might create a psychological tippping point in the way we (particulary non-Brixtoners) see the area leading to more inward investment. More personally, they think other friends will be more willing to see Brixton as 'nice' place to come once recognisable brands appear on the street. Others think that will just mean 'gentrification' and will signal the end of the unique character and community feel we have now.
the really important question is whether inward investment will improve the lives of the people who live in Brixton not as some sort of lifestyle choice but because that's where their home is and they've nowhere else to go. Those who have no other choices, mostly meaning those on the estates.
Personally I don't much care about psychological tipping points causing more tourism unless there's a reality to the old, and I thought discredited, notion of trickledown. Making the place attractive to Starbucks customers isn't high on any list of priorities unless it translates into improved job opportunities and prosperity.
Absolutely. Keep the rents down, provide suitable business support and facilites, maintain good and useful public services, provide an adequate supply of all forms of housing, prevent the relentless carveup of houses into poky little flats. Do these things please.
I lived in Brixton for many years until 1973. For about 20 years have not been back. From what I can see from the photo's posted on Urban it has deteriorated more so than in 1973.
tinted spectacles. There's almost no derries left, almost no corrie, no coldwater flats with outside bogs, no freezing slums running with condensation because paraffin is the only source of heat. It may not have quite the romantic 'soul' but the quality of life has improved massively.
kyser_soze
12-11-2007, 12:45
Don't worry, the dealing, street crazies and gun&knife crime will keep the Starbuckers away, even if a concession did open somewhere in Brixton...don't worry, outsiders can be kept from straying from the pathway from the tube to the Academy...
ramjamclub
12-11-2007, 12:56
tinted spectacles. There's almost no derries left, almost no corrie, no coldwater flats with outside bogs, no freezing slums running with condensation because paraffin is the only source of heat. It may not have quite the romantic 'soul' but the quality of life has improved massively.
There does appear to be far more violence and gang culture than in 1973!
What quality of life are you talking about.:confused:
antjamesb
12-11-2007, 12:59
ok, at the risk of being shot down in flames I guess I have to play devil's advocate. Maybe it could be argued that a proportion of people in and around Brixton might actually prefer a Starbucks because they like it; enjoy chain shops because they know what they are getting; and want to see more of this sort on and around the high street because it saves them going elsewhere to shop?
In terms of trickle-down, a slightly more realistic argument might be that chain shops attract other chain shops, which tend to pay higher rents and rates which might help top up the council coffers to spend on the area? (again, dont shoot me - I know there are reasons this might not happen too)
In terms of rents, business support, public services, housing etc - all these need funding, more than local authorities have at present or are likely to have in future given the recent settlement. I'm sure more could be done in these areas, but would investing in keeping the high-street 'local' deliver this?
Mr Retro
12-11-2007, 13:00
I personally don't think a Starbucks would make much difference to Brixton or to the existing businesses. It would be just another chain to go along with the others already there.
tarannau
12-11-2007, 13:05
ok, at the risk of being shot down in flames I guess I have to play devil's advocate. Maybe it could be argued that a proportion of people in and around Brixton might actually prefer a Starbucks because they like it; enjoy chain shops because they know what they are getting; and want to see more of this sort on and around the high street because it saves them going elsewhere to shop?
Brixton's never going to compete in terms of high street names. You've got Croydon down the road for every brand store under the sun, or Oxford Circus a short tube ride away.
kyser_soze
12-11-2007, 13:13
TBH I think a Starbucks would be great in Brixton - it'd give all the activisty types an opportunity to dust off the placards and feel good about themselves, maybe even have a nano-riot and liberate some trainers from JD Sports.
What I like about Brixton is that there is a healthy mix of chain stores and independent retailers. I use both, but would rather see investment in the small traders – they give Brixton its retail character. M&S, Morleys, Woolworths etc are all useful, but the market is one of the best things about Brixton.
It's kind of depressing to think your friends view the arrival of Starbucks as some sort of psychological tipping point for Brixton. If they're that desperate for a caramel latte, Clapham's a five-minute bus ride up the road.
kyser_soze
12-11-2007, 13:18
Besides, Nero's do better coffee...
What would bother me is if Brixton ended up like Peckham high street - biggest storefronts taken over by dubious religious groups promising faith healing for HIV and cancer...
I thought you had to have 27 estate agents offices within spitting distance before you got a starbucks
So when is Foxtons opening its Brixton office?
kyser_soze
12-11-2007, 13:23
HAHAHAHAHA...that'd be funny..>Foxtons in Brixton...
They could paint ganja leaves on their Minis :cool:
antjamesb
12-11-2007, 13:24
To be honest, these friends are made up, like most of mine :( and I moved out of Clapham years ago for that very reason. What the hell is a half fat caramel mocachino with hazelnut?
But that's beside the point. The point has been made in the past (not sure about proven - hence the research) that a critical mass of chain stores MIGHT draw more people, local and non-local, to the high street. This MIGHT have a knock-on impact on investment in street scene and lighting, a reduction in anti-social behaviour (on that particular street, anyway), an increase in business investment and council funding opportunities.
I feel that there also must be a more substantial reason that these stores are popular beyond the argument that they "out-muscle local stores and then give consumers no choice but to buy from them."
This is all maybe. I'm just trying to get a feel AND and build an evidence base for why people are so anti-clone-town in some areas, when others are longing for their high street to keep up.
I would hope that if Starbucks opened in Brixton it would be an abject failure, as locals would refuse to go there. I'd rather see an independent coffee shop rather than another chain. And if people need a Starbucks to persuade them to come to the area, then they don't really have an understanding of what the area's about. It'll only attract people who think it's something it's not - ie, Clapham.
Brixton is a "nice" place to come, in my opinion. We don't need a chain store to prove that.
Out of interest, where do you live, antjamesb?
antjamesb
12-11-2007, 13:30
up brixton hill. I shop on new park road but thats a whole other story.
Unfortunately i think a lot of people would disagree that Brixton is nice, but I'm working on them and this forum is an excellent source of evidence as to why it is.
As for "something it is not" - I think Brixton (centre) is a little more fluid than that at the moment and could go in several directions. That's why it makes a good case study for work like this.
This is all maybe. I'm just trying to get a feel AND and build an evidence base for why people are so anti-clone-town in some areas, when others are longing for their high street to keep up.
Because another high street with the same old shops doesn't represent choice. It never represents the diversity of the area, or add any character. Sure, you know what you're getting, and that's useful sometimes, but Brixton is a destination shopping area already – people come for the market. A mix of independents and chains is good – eventually replacing the market with a shiny new shopping centre would be disastrous.
kyser_soze
12-11-2007, 13:34
ianw:
1. There are already loads of chains in Brixton - WH Smith, M&S, Carphone Warehouse, and Morleys has all the same departments as any other dept store
2. There are enough local brand happy consumers in Brixton to make a local Starbucks a success, and not just the 'yuppie' contingent. I've been in the Nero's a few times, and it seems to have a pretty wide collection of people you'd normally see in a tea/coffee house on the high street - pensioners, young mums, a few students etc...
Why would you want to go to Starbucks when there's so many good, cheaper, independent cafes?
ATOMIC SUPLEX
12-11-2007, 13:36
Something smells a bit starbucky rep here.
"Hi, I was just wondering what you thought about new shops in Brixton, let's say just for example a coffee shop, you know the sort, like "Starbucks".
antjamesb
12-11-2007, 13:40
oh jesus. I am nothing to do with 'viral' advertising and I don't use Starbucks because I dont understand their menu.
"I whole-heartedly recommend all other coffee places except starbucks which as far as I can tell serves no purpose except as an example when discussing rampant capitalism and ikea furniture."
better?
Good grief, draw more people to the high street? I'd quite like to be able to walk from one end to the other without walking in the road, you know :)
mccliche
12-11-2007, 13:44
Good grief, draw more people to the high street? I'd quite like to be able to walk from one end to the other without walking in the road, you know :)
lol...too true
imo brixton doesn't nedd more investment in the way of chain-stores etc. it has a nice blend of chains and local places
no need for a starbucks, really can't imagine it.
would hate to see loads of people mincing around holding their starbucks foam coffee containers..... tho it would be a good way to spot a twat from a distance ;)
But that's beside the point. The point has been made in the past (not sure about proven - hence the research) that a critical mass of chain stores MIGHT draw more people, local and non-local, to the high street. This MIGHT have a knock-on impact on investment in street scene and lighting, a reduction in anti-social behaviour (on that particular street, anyway), an increase in business investment and council funding opportunities.
I.
The most anti-social aspect of Brixton as a shopping centre is the fecking great motorway running through the middle of it. The numbers of people using the pavements are easily 10 times the numbers in cars yet they are given maybe 25% of the available space.
It cuts the town in two, the pavements are practically impassable due to the crush of shoppers, child buggies, queues for buses etc. Even if you are nimble enough to skip through a few lanes of traffic there is a great fence down the middle - I'm over 6 foot tall and I can just about vault it ok - anyone else, unless you're a gymnast, forget it.
And of course car drivers think they have the right to drive as fast and aggressively as they like without regard to anyone else - just like they do everywhere else in London.
If they built Starbucks in the middle of the road and gave us a bit of space and a bit of peace I'd bloody welcome them. Otherwise - what on earth do they add? Nothing; more likely we'll lose something much nicer in order to fit them in.
antjamesb
12-11-2007, 13:47
fair point. not sure how that will change when they alter the layout of the centre but I think part of the plan was to lesson the congestion on the paths
fair point. not sure how that will change when they alter the layout of the centre but I think part of the plan was to lesson the congestion on the paths
Apols for the big image, but these are the plans as I know them. So yes, a bit of extra pavement is planned.
http://www.extracrispy.co.uk/gallery2/d/1501-1/brixtonroad.gif
Bottlenecks removed: Outside Iceland, West pavement from McDonalds to the main crossing.
Bottlenecks added: Outside Boots (iceland lorry layby), under the railway bridge - no more pavement between 1st pier and the road - new layby.
Why would you want to go to Starbucks when there's so many good, cheaper, independent cafes?
Sadly, Starbucks (and the other chain cafes) can offer more space and facilities that aren't always available in the independent cafes. The independent cafes in Brixton can be cramped and don't have toilets – like Rosie's in the market and that new place on Rushcroft Road. These things become important when you're travelling around with a pushchair, so that's why there are hoardes of mothers in Caffe Nero every day spending all the child benefit on biscotti ;)
There does appear to be far more violence and gang culture than in 1973!
you read that in the papers, sure, but in reality... I have a vivid memory of a gang of feral kids around Sandmere Rd in about 73/74 who used to set fire to cars in order to brick the fire brigade when they turned up. Obviously I also have tinted specs, but I'd say there was more, not less, low level asb type crime then than now, at least in terms of how it affects us civilians. I think you'd need to live in the place to appreciate that what 'appears' to be the case from the newspapers, or even from discussions here, isn't really reflective.
What quality of life are you talking about.:confused:
what I wrote... inside toilets, hot water, central heating. What is now thought of as very basic quality of life but was then the stuff of dreams for many localpeople who lived in miserable slums.
In the 70s there were queues outside the Town Hall of people wanting to get out of Brixton. Now the issue is those that can't afford to get (or stay) in.
Sadly, Starbucks (and the other chain cafes) can offer more space and facilities that aren't always available in the independent cafes. The independent cafes in Brixton can be cramped and don't have toilets The Ritzy and the Lounge cafes have loos and are both child friendly!
You can't get a buggy into the Ritzy cafe
Bottlenecks removed: Outside Iceland, West pavement from McDonalds to the main crossing.
Bottlenecks added: Outside Boots (iceland lorry layby), under the railway bridge - no more pavement between 1st pier and the road - new layby.They give with one hand and take with the other. :(
You can't get a buggy into the Ritzy cafeYes you can. There's a lift, or you can leave it downstairs.
Oh, I had no idea there was a lift :o
They give with one hand and take with the other. :(
I think in this case, they give more than they take. The iceland lorry has to park somewhere, after all.
I think in this case, they give more than they take. The iceland lorry has to park somewhere, after all.Why does Iceland need an all day parking bay? Why can't it unload at 5am or summat?
It's going to horrible if they take that chunk of pavement away under the bridge too.
They could paint ganja leaves on their Minis :cool:
LOL X 1000. :D
Yeah, the bridge bit rankles.
Good point about delivery timings. I always see them doing unloading after the store shuts - around 9ish.
Also notice the the Northbound side of the road is reduced to one lane plus bus lane. That's going to make buses slower to pull out.
untethered
12-11-2007, 15:20
But that's beside the point. The point has been made in the past (not sure about proven - hence the research) that a critical mass of chain stores MIGHT draw more people, local and non-local, to the high street. This MIGHT have a knock-on impact on investment in street scene and lighting, a reduction in anti-social behaviour (on that particular street, anyway), an increase in business investment and council funding opportunities.
This is somewhat putting the cart before the horse.
If you want the council to invest in the street scene, the best thing to do is approach them directly and set up community groups to make it happen. I'm not local to Brixton but I'd be surprised if various groups didn't already exist (Civic Trust affiliates, residents' and tenants' associations, chambers of commerce, environmental groups, etc.)
The real question is, what do you want your local area to be? Some people like the "security" of big brands and chain stores (but they're spoilt for choice in most places) and other people like the uniqueness and diversity of smaller, one-off businesses. Chain stores appropriate most of their takings and send them outside the neighbourhood, not least because they usually have a preference for centralised sourcing, whereas smaller local businesses will generally also use local suppliers.
There is more to quality of life than the raw turnover of a neighbourhood's high street shops. From what I know of Brixton, most people like it just as it is. Those that don't won't move there or will move out when they get the chance.
Why would you want to go to Starbucks when there's so many good, cheaper, independent cafes?
I agree. I find the idea that the presence of a Starbucks can somehow recommend a place to possible incomers baffling. The coffee's rubbish and the brand's clapped out.
You can't get a buggy into the Ritzy cafe
Yes, you can. You take it up in the lift. I've done that several times.
ianw:
1. There are already loads of chains in Brixton - WH Smith, M&S, Carphone Warehouse, and Morleys has all the same departments as any other dept store
I know. That's why I said another chain.
2. There are enough local brand happy consumers in Brixton to make a local Starbucks a success, and not just the 'yuppie' contingent. I've been in the Nero's a few times, and it seems to have a pretty wide collection of people you'd normally see in a tea/coffee house on the high street - pensioners, young mums, a few students etc...
Shame. The appeal of these places totally passes me by. I'd rather have a cuppa in one of the many fine cafes in Brixton.
Unfortunately i think a lot of people would disagree that Brixton is nice, but I'm working on them and this forum is an excellent source of evidence as to why it is.
Who cares what they think? If that's their attitude, I'd rather they stayed away.
Why does Iceland need an all day parking bay? Why can't it unload at 5am or summat?
Noise for local residents I'd imagine. Those of us who live right in the Town Centre put up with loads of noise (our choice for living here) but I think 5am deliveries would be pushing it a bit far :eek:
Don't agree with them having a permanent bay but I'm not sure there's another solution :confused: The shops at the other end of that stretch all unload at the back of Electric Lane but Iceland doesn't have a loading bay there because it's split from the rest by the tube station.
Plus, iceland has a huge lorry, I don't think you'd get it up atlantic road, let alone electric lane.
Plus, iceland has a huge lorry, I don't think you'd get it up atlantic road, let alone electric lane.
The Sainsburys and Argos lorries that unload are as big, but it just wouldn't be practical as their loading bay is in the Avenue so they'd just have to wheel all the crates round through the market which would be rather problematic!!
trabuquera
12-11-2007, 17:11
Does Brixton need a Starbucks? Definitely NO... wot with the new caffs in Morley's and Rushcroft Road, to add to the profusion of older more "indie" places (Ritzy, Rosie's, the Italian one that sells pizza too ) there is nothing it can add to the area - there are already plenty of places to eat cake / drink coffee / watch the world go by.
Does Brixton need more chainstores? I'd say NO again ... it is certainly nice having the 'bare basics' of chain shops (M&S, Sainsbury's, WH Smith, Woolworths, Argos (even) in the area .... excepting Comet of course 'cause they're the devil's spawn - but I can't honestly think of any more big-brand chain stores we really need.
What the area DOES still need - and I don't care if they turn out to be chains or not...
Decent bookshop
Decent video-rental firm after the demise of the DVD/internet place over the
road from the cop shop.
I don't think there's any argument for Brixton "needing" more chain stores to bring in more shoppers (because they won't), and even if they did, local planning means there will be almost nowhere for them to mill about in - at least without causing yet more punchups at the bus queues.
The real question is, what do you want your local area to be? Some people like the "security" of big brands and chain stores (but they're spoilt for choice in most places) and other people like the uniqueness and diversity of smaller, one-off businesses. Chain stores appropriate most of their takings and send them outside the neighbourhood, not least because they usually have a preference for centralised sourcing, whereas smaller local businesses will generally also use local suppliers.
But look at the oft-quoted example of Streatham. Ten years after losing the local John Lewis franchise it turned into a traffic-filled, knife-wiedling asbo-suburb. Bringing a John Lewis to Brixton may be not be enough to channel the local entrepreneurs into running an in-store concession, but it may have some affect. The anti-Pratts, whatever that would be.
Having said that, the great thing about Brixton is that there is always spare retail space on Brixton Road, Atlantic/Railton, in the market so every crappy little independent business has the chance to blossom into the next Lounge, Eco or Joy. Though sadly not the giant land snail shop in the covered market. I'm pretty sure tourists would have to come to see them
In terms of trickle-down, a slightly more realistic argument might be that chain shops attract other chain shops, which tend to pay higher rents and rates which might help top up the council coffers to spend on the area? (again, dont shoot me - I know there are reasons this might not happen too)
I'm pretty sure that business rates are nabbed by central government and local government don't get a look in.
Does Brixton need a Starbucks? Definitely NO... wot with the new caffs in Morley's and Rushcroft Road, to add to the profusion of older more "indie" places (Ritzy, Rosie's, the Italian one that sells pizza too ) there is nothing it can add to the area - there are already plenty of places to eat cake / drink coffee / watch the world go by.
I agree with this but I live in Brixton anyway. The OP's question is an interesting one which throws up all sorts of issues:
- what is needed to improve Brixton?
- to the extent that funding is needed how can that be attracted?
- to what extent can Brixton help "itself" and how much does it need outside custom?
- to what extent should it change the way it is to attract outsiders?
- can this change be balanced so as not to piss off the present residents?
There's probably quite a lot of (fried) chicken and egg in this debate but I'd guess that the notional Starbucks is really just a proxy for the area changing in a way that brings in those presently uncomfortable about coming here.
To put it in a nutshell, is it possible to have regeneration without gentrification? With so much left to commercial concerns I suspect that unfortunately the answer is no.
gaijingirl
12-11-2007, 22:19
You can't get a buggy into the Ritzy cafe
You've obviously never been in there whilst they're doing the "Watch with mother" shows... :D I thought I'd walked into a buggy warehouse!!
antjamesb
12-11-2007, 22:21
Thanks Winot, that's a much more eloquent way of explaining what I was trying to get at.
And yep, business rates are nationalised though there are some smaller-scale ways in which councils can benefit from their growth (e.g. LABGI) and from an influx of large businesses more generally.
Thanks for all your input so far - much appreciated.
Brainaddict
12-11-2007, 22:40
The premises of this thread baffle me on so many levels. For starters it seems to be based on the Chinese model of state capitalism where the town is a money-generating entity in competition with other towns. But I realise that the ethic (and bogus economics) of such competition has fully entered the public sector in this country too now so shouldn't be too surprised.
Another premise I find odd: the idea that the high street needs more people. Very strange thought if you've ever tried to walk down it on a Saturday. Surely what is meant here is it needs the *right kind* of people. That's the subtext I read anyway. Meanwhile what happens to the people already here?
And another odd idea: that chain shops can be a catalyst for something positive, rather than, say, the destruction of locally-run businesses. Yeah, that'd be great for Brixton. The people who own shops now could go and work in the new chain shops for £6.50 an hour. Woo!
Odd idea number four: that the opinions of people who live outside Brixton (and find it scary) should matter over the opinions of people who actually live here (who mostly like it).
Odd idea number five: an implicit assumption that Brixton exists in economic isolation from the rest of London, which if my memory of the map is correct, is actually quite close by. It's ridiculous to talk about the economic revitalisation of Brixton without considering its place in London. Maybe its a bit poor because there are poor people in London. Strange thought. Are these people poor because of lack of 'inward investment' into Brixton? We live in the middle of one of the biggest job-generation centres of the world, mostly easily accessible by public transport. I don't think people are poor because there aren't any jobs around. It's a bit more structural than that. So if your 'inward investment' isn't going to help the poor people, is it just going to drive them out?
And oddest of all: is posting on random bulletin boards what counts as research in local government now? In which case we're fucked :p
And oddest of all: is posting on random bulletin boards what counts as research in local government now? In which case we're fucked :p
as a lone substitute for research it's clearly useless, but it complements other methods at least as well as, say, some drummers and a mock up of the tram and a table of questionaires outside the library, which is what TfL did a few weeks ago.
potential
12-11-2007, 23:26
why this disgust at people NOT wanting a starbucks, nero or whatever coffe chain in brixton ?
i.e. tarquin and tara from the suburbs, are going to see the sex pistols at the academy. tarquin says where shall wee meet up tara ?
we'll meet up town spend a few quid there and then go together cos brixtons a bit ruff so ive heard....
or theres a starbucks across from brixton tube ill meet you there eh ?
oh that was a nice night out wee had all that scare mongering about brixton is a bit over hyped cos wee meet up there before those punk rocker gig...
supercity
12-11-2007, 23:26
I have been down the pub, but please bear with me and excuse any linguistic infelicities (had to type that twice).
1. Brixton already has (banks not included) M&S, WH Smith, Subway, Body Shop, Argos, Boots, Tesco, Sainsbury, Superdrug, Currys, Halfords, McDonalds, Woolworths KFC.
As far as I can tell, the present bunch of chain stores has done little to improve the quality of life for Brixton residents, and very little to improve the local environment, by which I mean building improvements, litter control or in any way making an effort to seem like they belong here. In my book, the only ones that have any real credit here are Woolies and M&S, which have stuck in Brixton through thick and thin (although it has to be said, with minimal investment in their premises). RIP Lloyds Bank (the real one, not the plastic branch on Acre Lane), British Home Stores, Bon Marche and even Pizza Hut.
2. Before I moved here, I lived in Archway, not far from Islington Green. At the time, in 1988, Islington had junk shops, greengrocers, newsagents, butchers, an interesting market. It was a great place to live. And then, it "tipped", as you might say. I go there now, and I see tapas bars, Starbucks, Costa coffees, Thai restaurants, a flourishing economy with no soul whatsoever. In 1988, just about the only place to eat in Islington was Pizza Express. While I recognise that, for some people, the current state of affairs is a consummation devoutly to be wished, I would really hate for Brixton to go the same way, especially at a time when the circle has turned and "real" shops are making a comeback. Lambeth and Islington councils both deserve the contempt of the people who vote and pay for them, for their failure to find the right balance.
3. That said, I would like a Pizza Express in Brixton. Take over the old cinema on the Hill. Go on.
http://www.urban75.net/ubb/wink.gif
4. And if you want to turn the Railway Hotel into a Starbucks, for God's sake refurbish the building thoroughly and properly and get the clock working.
5. While I'm rambling, one more thing. In 1990 or so, I was working on a well known London listings magazine, and we decided that, it being summer, we'd do an issue for tourists: the London their guidebooks didn't tell 'em about or somesuch stuff. Our tourists, selected at random from lost-looking people wandering around Oxford Street and then offered a day out on us, were taken to Brixton Market as part of the deal. ALL of their guidebooks had told them it was a no-go area. All of our tourists were crapping themselves. At the end of the day, when they filled out their questionnaires, Brixton Market was the place they all wanted to return to and tell their friends about. It topped the poll by miles. Would that be the case if we'd sat them down on a Starbucks sofa?
I don't know why I should be fair, but in fairness you can add Boots, Currys and tesco to the thick & thin list.
potential
12-11-2007, 23:37
get rid of em all eh ? body shop, most of the pubs but just keep that lovely independant shop. you know the one, who unlocks your mobile phone, and buys and sell all those dodgy phones....
teuchter
12-11-2007, 23:51
The premises of this thread baffle me on so many levels. For starters it seems to be based on the Chinese model of state capitalism where the town is a money-generating entity in competition with other towns. But I realise that the ethic (and bogus economics) of such competition has fully entered the public sector in this country too now so shouldn't be too surprised.
Another premise I find odd: the idea that the high street needs more people. Very strange thought if you've ever tried to walk down it on a Saturday. Surely what is meant here is it needs the *right kind* of people. That's the subtext I read anyway. Meanwhile what happens to the people already here?
And another odd idea: that chain shops can be a catalyst for something positive, rather than, say, the destruction of locally-run businesses. Yeah, that'd be great for Brixton. The people who own shops now could go and work in the new chain shops for £6.50 an hour. Woo!
Odd idea number four: that the opinions of people who live outside Brixton (and find it scary) should matter over the opinions of people who actually live here (who mostly like it).
Odd idea number five: an implicit assumption that Brixton exists in economic isolation from the rest of London, which if my memory of the map is correct, is actually quite close by. It's ridiculous to talk about the economic revitalisation of Brixton without considering its place in London. Maybe its a bit poor because there are poor people in London. Strange thought. Are these people poor because of lack of 'inward investment' into Brixton? We live in the middle of one of the biggest job-generation centres of the world, mostly easily accessible by public transport. I don't think people are poor because there aren't any jobs around. It's a bit more structural than that. So if your 'inward investment' isn't going to help the poor people, is it just going to drive them out?
And oddest of all: is posting on random bulletin boards what counts as research in local government now? In which case we're fucked :p
Well said. Agreed on all five points. Saved me typing out much the same thing myself.
There seems to be an unstated assumption by many that somewhere like Clapham or Islington is "better" than somewhere like Brixton. It might be for some people - that's fine - but for many people here the opposite is true, and that's why we choose to live here.
Mind you, I realise that having chosen to live here, I am in a slightly different category to those who have always lived here, or who for whatever reason don't have much option, who might have a different view, and I can't speak for them.
(And I actually think that posting on message boards is fine, as long as it's in conjunction with other forms of research. And this isn't really a "random" bulletin board; I think the majority of people have a genuine and mostly well-informed interest in Brixton and its affairs.)
I have been down the pub..... Would that be the case if we'd sat them down on a Starbucks sofa?
Top Post.
Brainaddict
13-11-2007, 09:25
as a lone substitute for research it's clearly useless, but it complements other methods at least as well as, say, some drummers and a mock up of the tram and a table of questionaires outside the library, which is what TfL did a few weeks ago.
Yeah, I know there's nothing wrong with it as long as there's other research going on too. It's even quite nice that he/she made the effort. I was just in rant mode :o
Brainaddict
13-11-2007, 09:31
Mind you, I realise that having chosen to live here, I am in a slightly different category to those who have always lived here, or who for whatever reason don't have much option, who might have a different view, and I can't speak for them.
I also have the luxury of having chosen to live here, tis true, and I can't speak for the people who were born here and haven't had a chance to move away if they wanted to. Possibly they would have different views and with any luck there are some posting on here.
OpalFruit
13-11-2007, 13:06
Why would Starbucks be the defining indicator for more chain stores?
I would have thought that invenstment (and I mean investment - not chain stores) would be attracted if the social regeneration of the area was put foirst - or at least equal - to commercial or physical regeneration. Activities for young people, meaningful training and job creation, provision of sustainable business opportunities.
At the moment fat too many businesses leave Brixton once they grow and become successful (sucessful to the pint where they can offer employment opportunities like training, promotion, pensions etc - good for local employees) . The Voice, Abel and Cole, White Stuff (?) are all recent examples, i think, of businesses that have left once they couldn't find space or facilities they needed. Crime puts businesses off coming - and in the end, a business like Starbucks presumably depends on office workers for it's day time trade.
IMO Starbucks would be the (rather depressing) indication that every other form of regeneration had taken place - not the catalyst for it.
But I agree with the poster who would like a Pizza Express in Brixton :)
kyser_soze
13-11-2007, 13:12
a business like Starbucks presumably depends on office workers for it's day time trade
No, it depends on people who want to drop in and buy coffee. This is not limited to office workers.
christonabike
13-11-2007, 13:16
We have a daytime pizza place, and we're only a short walk away from two very good other places
These three make pizza express pizza's look and taste shite
And they are all independent
:)
mccliche
13-11-2007, 13:21
^^^
please name these 3 pizza places?
i knwo the ritzy does pizza, but i thought that was it apart from take-aways
We have a daytime pizza place, and we're only a short walk away from two very good other places
These three make pizza express pizza's look and taste shite
And they are all independent
:)
Two? There's the place on Clapham Park Road...and what's the other?
^^^
please name these 3 pizza places?
i knwo the ritzy does pizza, but i thought that was it apart from take-aways
Eco in the market, but it's only open during the day.
Verso, on Clapham Park Road - nice place.
And...um...
Brainaddict
13-11-2007, 13:23
Ferndales?
Ferndales?
Yes, that's probably it. Both that and Verso are in SW4, so technically Clapham.
christonabike
13-11-2007, 13:32
Franco's
Eco
Alba
Verso, dunno what they are like now
Ferndale, dunno about here either
Pizza Express sucks
I guess they are not that close but I cycle about so all are within five minutes from Brixton
:)
mccliche
13-11-2007, 13:40
ok, not technically in brixton so i cna rest easy knowing the wasn't pizza places that had escaped my detection for the past few years ;)
christonabike
13-11-2007, 13:42
Haha, still, we don't want a fucking pizza express
Where's my pizza?
There it is!
No, that's a savoury biscuit
:)
Eco do fantastic pizzas - waaay better than Pizza Express. The Ritzy pizzas are pretty good too.
There's a Pizza Express in Streatham, if you're hankering after a pizza that isn't quite as big as you thought it would be...! ;) :D There's also a lovely independent pizza place that I don't know the name of, that's further south on the high street.
I've only ever eaten in Eco in Clapham, and I had a terrible experience. Being served a calzone with meat in it, when I asked for a veggie one, and then having terrible stomach cramps/food poisoning later that night. I haven't been back to either branch since.
Pizza Man, next door to the Hand in Hand. They bring the Pizza in the Pub, works well for me :)
OpalFruit
13-11-2007, 16:01
But there is a shortage of good pizzas in Brixton, available in the evening?
I agree a good independent would be better, but I still like Pizza Express!
And I still think that Starbucks, if one existed in Brixton, would depend on office-type customers.
Too expensive for many daytime market-shoppers / ordinary Brixton folk, too chain-store and unethical and untrendy for people who want to meet for business chats - like the people in Lounge, Ritzy during the day. I'm one of those, from time to time and would never meet in Starbucks rather than Eco, Lounge or Ritzy! Too inauthentic for people who want a nice coffee and bacon sandwich in Phoenix.
It is extremely depressing that the crossing of the ways at the heart of brixton is dominated by KFC and McD on oposite corners. I can't see how more 'chains' will improve anything at all for anyone.
OP sems very odd to me, tbh - but the development of Brixton is an ever-absorbing topic anyway.
OpalFruit
13-11-2007, 16:22
Oh, and Opus is a top coffee shop.
No-one would go to Starbucks in preference to Opus.
They actually do excellent coffee.
Please dont joke about fuckin Foxtons - theyve opened in newly gentrified East Dulwich - their filthy cars fill the streets and their boards pollute the hedges and fences
thetyve got some 0% commission into offer which is desigedn to drive everyone else out of buisiness - and IIRC, theyre run by some capital group and have pots of cash to invade and hang around with their loss leaders until theyve turned into a ground fuckin zero faceless wasteland
But there is a shortage of good pizzas in Brixton, available in the evening?.Is there really much of a demand for pizzas in the evening? Brixton seems more of greasy chicken town.
But if you're that desperate there's plenty of pubs and fast food joints serving up pizza. In fact, there's a new place on Coldharbour Lane.
happyshopper
13-11-2007, 17:03
Both that and Verso are in SW4, so technically Clapham.
I know that I'm probably wasting my time but it needs to be made clear that postal districts were named many decades ago by some civil servant after what was then the location of the respective sorting offices, not the areas that they covered. That's why the SW2 sorting office is in Brixton but covers all sorts of streets that are clearly not in Brixton. The same with Clapham.
Stockwell is an interesting case, that proves the rule, because back when the postal districts were named, Stockwell was to the east of the area that we would now tend to call Stockwell. The shift in Stockwell's centre of gravity appears to have taken place because of the tube station.
quimcunx
13-11-2007, 22:39
Something on my, partly jokey, other thread on future brixton got me thinking.
It would be nice to see the canopies brought back, to make the market nicer, whilst at the same time keeping the businesses there and the rent the same, but making it a destination where people would come from out of the area to shop for food and then also morleys and other local businesses. Of course that would never happen. to get the initial investment whoever got control would want to get rid of the business there and replace them with Starbucks etc.
What my ex who had a dim view of london, generally, liked about brixton is that it seems like a real place in it's own right rather than a tube station. It does have it's own distinct personality, good and bad and I think we'd want to keep that. Not over sanitise/gentrify it.
I'd love to see local independent business offer the same quality of service starbucks etc offer.
quimcunx
13-11-2007, 22:45
It is extremely depressing that the crossing of the ways at the heart of brixton is dominated by KFC and McD on oposite corners. I can't see how more 'chains' will improve anything at all for anyone.
Perhaps if, rather than 'more' chains, one of these (McDonalds please) was replaced by a Starbucks (any coffee place but SB) /Pizza bloody Express/ something else?
Brainaddict
14-11-2007, 09:49
I'd love to see local independent business offer the same quality of service starbucks etc offer.
Opus up acre lane serves excellent coffee with friendly service. The Lounge is not bad and does good food too. Max-Olivers has just opened next to the juice bar. All better options than starbucks, particularly in terms of the quality of coffee.
What are you looking for? Something that looks like starbucks, serves the same dilute coffee and overpriced cakes, has a similar faux-coffee-house feel but that happens to be independently owned and with a different name? :confused:
intrikat
15-11-2007, 23:26
Brainaddict for mayor
seconded
:D
I live and shop in Brixton :) and the independent shops and stalls are reason why I love it, and would much rather use them than the chain stores. Do we really need the starbucks generation to tell us whether its a good place to be?
kyser_soze
16-11-2007, 10:23
I just want somewhere that can serve me a nice, frothy vanilla latté en route to the station from the No2 bus stop outside Morleys. Not too much to ask...
I just want somewhere that can serve me a nice, frothy vanilla latté en route to the station from the No2 bus stop outside Morleys. Not too much to ask...
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2007/03/14/nathanbarley460.jpg
Ya! The provision of vanilla latté should be made compulsory within 10 metres of every Brixton bus stop. Well weapon!
http://www.mevproductions.co.uk/TV/Partridge2.jpg
I live and shop in Brixton :) and the independent shops and stalls are reason why I love it
Sure, Brixton has some great independent shops - Opus/Upstairs, Portuguese Deli, LS Mash etc. I try to shop at them most of the time and try to avoid the chains.
But do you really think that Brixton is special in this regard? Most places in London have them. And, much as I love it, I'd say that Brixton has fewer than a lot of areas that used to be comparable. Still no decent offie, no new bookshop (rip Index), still only one 'special occasion' restaurant, still no decent butcher, and still far too many empty shops.
No, we don't need Starbucks, but let's not be complacent - there's still significant room for improvement.
OpalFruit
16-11-2007, 16:59
Sure, Brixton has some great independent shops - Opus/Upstairs, Portuguese Deli, LS Mash etc. I try to shop at them most of the time and try to avoid the chains.
But do you really think that Brixton is special in this regard? Most places in London have them. And, much as I love it, I'd say that Brixton has fewer than a lot of areas that used to be comparable. Still no decent offie, no new bookshop (rip Index), still only one 'special occasion' restaurant, still no decent butcher, and still far too many empty shops.
No, we don't need Starbucks, but let's not be complacent - there's still significant room for improvement.
There have been a number of interesting independent shops on Atlantic Rd that have, sadly, not lasted the course, and more are closing down.
Elephant Feet, The baby - equipment shop (New Tomorrows??) have closed down.
People earlier on this thread have commented that Brixton doesn't need to attract more people - it is already teeming - but not, apparantly, with people who are soending enough money to keep market stalls and independent shops going. It isn't just rising rents - market traders and shops reported very scant sales last christmas. To enable shops to thrive, more shoppers with money to spend are needed. That needn't mean yuppies in luxury flats - it can mean small commercial enterprises (i.e businesses that are not shops), any businesses which employ people who use cafes for lunch, do small daily shopping before they return home, nip out for a last minute birthday present etc etc. Shops thrive in centres of employment - and it is employment that will bring genuine accessible (by which I mean accessible to all sections of the local community) economic regeneration to Brixton. Provision of jobs, provision of training, and money staying within the local retail and catering businesses.
I was chatting to one of the blokes involved in the market traders association, and he seemed quite upbeat about future prospects.
I hope so because if the market shrinks on some streets any more it'll barely exist.
I might be doing a free website for them so maybe we'll learn more about what's planned.
There have been a number of interesting independent shops on Atlantic Rd that have, sadly, not lasted the course, and more are closing down.
Elephant Feet, The baby - equipment shop (New Tomorrows??) have closed down.
I lived round the corner from that parade from 1998-2006 and you're absolutely right. It's high water mark has passed. Other casualties are the Bettie Morton Gallery, Atlantic 66 and the clothes shop (can't remember what it was called).
Elephant Feet seemed to be reasonably well run but I think it targeted a pretty small market (albeit one with large feet).
Greater Tomorrows ("Little Things Means [sic] A Lot") was unfortunately pretty poor - a huge stock yet never seemed to have anything we needed and no hint that they might be able to get it (very friendly though).
I don't know anything about the economics of running a retail business but looking at the successful local examples it seems to be bloody hard work. Good luck to them.
I've been keeping up with this forum for some time but have only just decided to post something.
I am a researcher involved in local government (not for Lambeth Council) and am interested in getting some views on the future of Brixton high street. I've seen some comments on the appearance of Costa and other views on the market etc but I wanted to try and get a more rounded view of residents concerns as to where we are going.
Cheers
The way the LBL see it is that they have to compete with Croyden as a shopping destination.Covent Garden is seen as a successful regeneration project as well as Borough high st market.
One thing i do disagree with u is that Starbucks will bring in improved facilites(knock on effect).Excuse me but basic things like decent pavememnts and lighting should be in place anyway.
Brainaddict
18-11-2007, 12:34
The way the LBL see it is that they have to compete with Croyden as a shopping destination.Covent Garden is seen as a successful regeneration project as well as Borough high st market.
One thing i do disagree with u is that Starbucks will bring in improved facilites(knock on effect).Excuse me but basic things like decent pavememnts and lighting should be in place anyway.
It is kind of ironic that LBL should have 'ambitous' plans for a place where they can't even keep the streetlamps lit isn't it?
isvicthere?
18-11-2007, 12:48
I thought you had to have 27 estate agents offices within spitting distance before you got a starbucks
In which case, why isn't there already a starbucks?
isvicthere?
18-11-2007, 13:01
I agree. I find the idea that the presence of a Starbucks can somehow recommend a place to possible incomers baffling. The coffee's rubbish and the brand's clapped out.
Indeed. A fact that is often overlooked in the general hatred (in my view justified) of the corporate monster that is Starbucks, is that its product is shite.
It is kind of ironic that LBL should have 'ambitous' plans for a place where they can't even keep the streetlamps lit isn't it?
exactly:) .Sign if the times that u cant have these basics unless "private capital" or in LBLs language "partnerships" is pulled in.Seems to me that its "private capital" that get indirect subsidy from the state -despite business complaints of red tape obstructing them.See Northern Rock getting bailed out by the Government for an example.
by the way thought your previous post was good (post number 60)
I've been keeping up with this forum for some time but have only just decided to post something.
I am a researcher involved in local government (not for Lambeth Council) and am interested in getting some views on the future of Brixton high street.
For example, friends of mine are keen to see a Starbucks - I know it is usually the most hated of global brands but they believe it might create a psychological tippping point in the way we (particulary non-Brixtoners) see the area leading to more inward investment. More personally, they think other friends will be more willing to see Brixton as 'nice' place to come once recognisable brands appear on the street. Others think that will just mean 'gentrification' and will signal the end of the unique character and community feel we have now.
1) Brands have always been in the Brixton Road (see some of editors photo gallery).M&S Woolies Boots Banks. Brixton used to be a high quality shopping area years ago.A mixture of large shops and smaller retailers.
2) I however think there is some space for a few more (affordable) brands alongside M&S etc.For example H&M.There are too many clothing shops selling tat IMO.There is a lot of underused retail capacity in Brixton.Look above Sainsburys and WH Smith to see wasted space.What Brixton doesnt need is grandiose plans (see Croydon) involving large scale demolition and sale of Council property(ie previous LBL administrations idea to sell Rec).
What is needed is research looking at all the retail space in Brixton to see how it could be used better.
3) Starbucks-I wouldnt use it as Im Anti American:p .Next thing would be Walmart and "Saluting the Flag" like Gordon wants us to do:mad: .Still American style regeneration can be seen around Grosvenor Sq;) -now called "Little Baghdad" by its well heeled residents.
Plenty of independant Coffee bars in Brixton-Lounge.Kind of places that Starbucks have driven out in US.
4)One possible way to regenerate the market is to increase its quality (and price).The market in Borough High st is now successful.Its more like a Farmers market.Premium products at a price.This wouldnt be that liked here.
However there are already some shops that sell quality products.A few delis etc.Without pushing out all the affordable shops I think there is space for more quality retail in the Market.
5) The market unlike the High st shops closes early.Something to be said for allowing to stay open later.
6) I must say I sometimes get frustrated with shopping in Brixton.Im around the West End a lot.Boots and M&S in the West End are better and the range of products is bigger.So I end up buying stuff on the West End.A lot of the Brand shops in Brixton are pale reflections of what these brands can provide.
For example I had to go to John Lewis in Oxfrod st to get some blinds to fit my windows(they werent any more expensive) and for DIY I have to go to specialist shops in other parts of London and B&Q.
Loupylou
19-11-2007, 02:31
I don't know anything about the economics of running a retail business but looking at the successful local examples it seems to be bloody hard work. Good luck to them.
Yep - the govt / councils actively work against small businesses.
E.g Lower Marsh is now gone - put out of business by Southwark council.
Radio Days is closing in the New Year and I reckon all the other small businesses will be gone shortly afterwards pretty quickly. Waterloo is a major regeneration area - huge bucks to be made by the Council, consultants, architects, planners, big businesses
Cue chain stores and estate agents.
but it's all OK they've got a French Market now.....
Despite the previous post about Brixton Mkt, I reckon that'll be shut within 5 years, &/or the current stalls priced out and handed over to yuppy farmers - it's dying on its arse. Lambeth Council have wanted shot of it for years - Philistines.
I hope I'm wrong.
Yep - the govt / councils actively work against small businesses.
E.g Lower Marsh is now gone - put out of business by Southwark council.
Radio Days is closing in the New Year and I reckon all the other small businesses will be gone shortly afterwards pretty quickly.
I used to like Lower Marsh market when I worked round there, though part of it's charm was that it was clearly doomed within a few years yet the old geezers kept selling the cheap bananas and Kentish cobnuts like they could somehow compete. Then the pub became the Elusive Camel. Then scooterworks turned up.
What is odd is how many (non-clothes) shopping areas are shrinking or closing down (Covent Garden/Lower Marsh/Brixton) while so many others are expanding: Borough/Marylebone/Clapham Farmers market. Though East Street market and East Dulwich seem to do OK in their very different ways.
Plenty of independant Coffee bars in Brixton-Lounge.Kind of places that Starbucks have driven out in US.
Yum yum.. just wanted to say how GOOD the coffee (latte) I had this morning from the Thai stall in the.. is it the Arcadia? (Happy Arcade? I can never remember what it's called) before Woolies was. The place with the little light-up sign which says 'Thai Food Snacks'. It was only £1.20, tasted like the best Italian coffee, perfect texture, and best of all they only sell "big" and "small" coffee. Was illy coffee I think.
4)One possible way to regenerate the market is to increase its quality (and price).The market in Borough High st is now successful.Its more like a Farmers market.Premium products at a price.This wouldnt be that liked here.
However there are already some shops that sell quality products.A few delis etc.Without pushing out all the affordable shops I think there is space for more quality retail in the Market.
5) The market unlike the High st shops closes early.Something to be said for allowing to stay open later.
6) I must say I sometimes get frustrated with shopping in Brixton.Im around the West End a lot.Boots and M&S in the West End are better and the range of products is bigger.So I end up buying stuff on the West End.A lot of the Brand shops in Brixton are pale reflections of what these brands can provide.
For example I had to go to John Lewis in Oxfrod st to get some blinds to fit my windows(they werent any more expensive) and for DIY I have to go to specialist shops in other parts of London and B&Q.
I think the regeneration of Borough High Street/Market has gone too far the other way.
I'm not against buying quality products at premium prices now and again but Borough has gotten to the extent where you can no longer buy a loaf of bread for under 3 or 4 quid...that's not right.
Borough is now a treat for your average joe...it's basically a "Yuppie Shopping Experience" IMHO.
I agree with you on Boots & M&S in Brixton, both horribly limited. In fact the M&S in Tooting wipes the floor with our one, why?
What happened to the "upmarket" stalls in Electric Avenue on a Sunday - are they still there or did it die a death?
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