View Full Version : 16yr old boy shot dead in Stockwell
Breaking news now. Apparently it was in the early hours of this morning.
:(
FFS, can anyone think of a worse combination than teenage boys and guns :(
Teenage boys and knives don't go too well together either:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1277091,00.html
:(
Minnie_the_Minx
26-07-2007, 10:38
Breaking news now. Apparently it was in the early hours of this morning.
:(
:(
Any idea where or how this happened? Pub, club, boy's home, street? :(
Hope it's not another case of mistaken identity
Fruitloop
26-07-2007, 10:40
What is a 16 year old boy doing out in the early hours of the morning? :(
Good grief:
A 16-year-old boy has been shot dead after apparently being chased by a gang of youths on bicycles.
The teenager, who has not been named, was gunned down in the Stockwell Gardens Estate in south London in the early hours of the morning.
Scotland Yard said officers were called 15 minutes after midnight to reports of shots being fired outside the Cassell House flats on the estate.
When they got there, they found the boy with gunshot wounds.
He was pronounced dead at the scene.
Detective Inspector Geoff Whitehouse said: "Initial reports suggest that the victim was running away from a number of youths on bicycles prior to being shot."
A post-mortem examination is due to be carried out on the boy's body later today.
Mr Whitehouse said: "I am appealing for anyone who saw a group of youths on bicycles in the area around this time, or who saw any other suspicious activity, to contact the incident room."So that's a whole load of kids involved with this murder. Let's hope at least one of them has the morals to report the cunt responsible.
What is a 16 year old boy doing out in the early hours of the morning? :(Kids as young as 10 are often out on my estate at 2-3 in the morning.
Minnie_the_Minx
26-07-2007, 10:42
Good grief:
Group of youths on bicycles :rolleyes:
Well that's not going to narrow it down much :(
grubby local
26-07-2007, 10:51
am googling but i cant find a map of cassell house , it must be yards from where i am ... anyone help locate it? (cross streets?)
Picture of block here: http://www.loot.com/advert/apartment--london--sw9/14904874
It's right by the station: http://tinyurl.com/2xunbo
grubby local
26-07-2007, 10:59
so its just on the left, visible from stockwell road, up near the tube?
gx
Kid_Eternity
26-07-2007, 11:31
Good grief:
So that's a whole load of kids involved with this murder. Let's hope at least one of them has the morals to report the cunt responsible.
Morals? Don't you mean guts?
Just down the road from me - i walk past every day to the tube..
i saw a bunch of kids running out of there laughing a couple of weeks ago, one of em waving a gun... this was about 5.30pm, not even dark yet...
Chairman Meow
26-07-2007, 12:30
I lived in Stockwell in 1992. It scared the shit out of me, everybody that lived in my house was mugged except me - some of the blokes several times. Seems like its got even worse.:( That poor kid.
It looks to me like it's the flats that are directly behind the Swan. I used to live in Stockwell for about Twelve years or so, just off Lansdowne Way and the community of Stockwell will certainly be looking for answers to do with this. The Station area and and surrounding bus stops are still extremely busy at this time of the evening, so there must have been witnesses ... Its like you said though.. Morals, Guts, .... Guilt !!
quimcunx
26-07-2007, 13:47
Just down the road from me - i walk past every day to the tube..
i saw a bunch of kids running out of there laughing a couple of weeks ago, one of em waving a gun... this was about 5.30pm, not even dark yet...
so you reported it to the police?
Some poor mother's life has just been destroyed and a whole family left distraught because of these fucking bandanna-toting wannabe gangsta twats.
The only good thing is that one of their mates is almost certain to fess up the culprit sooner or later because these cowardly cunts will soon start boasting about their great 'achievement' and how 'tough' their mob is.
it has been reported that a lot of the 'kids' that have been murdered have been in some way involved in gang related violence themselves. i'm not saying they deserve to be killed but if that's the lifestyle they aspire to then they must expect at some point to be the victims of serious incidents like this
gaijingirl
26-07-2007, 14:03
it has been reported that a lot of the 'kids' that have been murdered have been in some way involved in gang related violence themselves. i'm not saying they deserve to be killed but if that's the lifestyle they aspire to then they must expect at some point to be the victims of serious incidents like this
I'm not sure why you say 'kids' in inverted commas. They are kids - that's what makes this so shit. I see kids on my estate acting all big, swearing, smoking, behaving really badly and I do feel angry by their behaviour, but then I'll see them playing football with each other, mucking about and you realise - they're so young, they're not inherently bad (at least I don't believe that to be the case). I also would question why they aspire to that kind of lifestyle?
It's just fucking shit - for everyone.
grubby local
26-07-2007, 14:08
yeah you should report shite like that gabi, hassle or no ....
i had a mooch around there just after news broke, large crime scene area, cops, press, hundles of kids here and there, not much to report ...
i've lived in stockwell estate on and off over 7 years ... it goes in waves of shite and ok .... junkies on the stairwell, had a mad machete-weilding twat live next door, mates girlfriend mugged and beaten, al-queda house discovered opposite, loadsa boom-boom lads roamin about. I do a bit of community voluntary stuff to keep my hand in whats goin on - which is basically just trying to keep a lid on it here and there, showing the wannabees what proper ganglife is (from my time in brazil) and scaring the shit out of em .... dunno what else to do really ...
gx
edited to say: obv i wasnt in a gang :) hehe.
dunno what else to do really ...
That's a lot more than most of us do so kudos to you.
Treebeak
26-07-2007, 14:15
it has been reported that a lot of the 'kids' that have been murdered have been in some way involved in gang related violence themselves. i'm not saying they deserve to be killed but if that's the lifestyle they aspire to then they must expect at some point to be the victims of serious incidents like this
I think the point is that gangs start carrying guns to protect themselves against the other gangs carrying guns.. its a self perpetuating cycle. They know they prolly will get shot.. that the massive problem. Its kill or be killed unfortunatley. As well as being fecking losers they are prolly also really scared..
I live in Stockwell but on the t'other side of the road a bit further down. Have to walk through an estate to get home though. I'm not usually one for taking any notice of gang killing but I'll defo be looking at different route when it starts to get dark at night again..
We dont know if the victim was a member of a gang or anything as yet.
Orang Utan
26-07-2007, 14:18
Shootings these days aren't always necessarily gang-related - often they arise out of a silly little argument :(
Shootings these days aren't always necessarily gang-related - often they arise out of a silly little argument :(
ARE YOU DISPRESPECTING MY POST :mad:
Treebeak
26-07-2007, 14:22
Shootings these days aren't always necessarily gang-related - often they arise out of a silly little argument :(
Well, there was a group of kids, otherwise known as a gang... I'm sure the kid they shot also belonged to another friendship group, also known as a gang. They may not be 'rivals' in a kinda Sharks v Jets kinda way but you can bet that they knew the kid they shot... not like they were after him for his lap top and briefcase, really..
Orang Utan
26-07-2007, 14:24
What I mean is that in the past shootings tended to be restricted to turf wars between drugs 'gangs' rather than just scrapping bunches of teens
PacificOcean
26-07-2007, 14:24
I lived in Stockwell in 1992. It scared the shit out of me, everybody that lived in my house was mugged except me - some of the blokes several times. Seems like its got even worse.:( That poor kid.
This is now described as being "Edgy and Vibirant"
steveblue
26-07-2007, 15:05
Residents spoke about hearing what they thought was fireworks in the early
hours of the morning.
Mother-of-three Nasima Khatun, who has lived on the estate for around 20-years,
said in summer there were often up to 40 people who would hang around.
She said police were called to the area nearly every day and the council had
put up a road block at one entrance to prevent cars being driven on to the
estate.
"We are scared. We have told the council about it so many times but there's
nothing they can do.
"I have got a 16-year-old son and I am very, very worried about him.
"He doesn't often go out as he's frightened to walk the streets around here,"
she said.
Zoe Searle, 15, who was visiting her grandmother who lives on the estate said
there were two rival gangs in the area, one from Stockwell and the so-called
Bloodset gang from neighbouring Brixton.
She said last bonfire night the two rival gangs had a fireworks fight on the
estate.
"My nan thought it was fireworks but I knew it was gun shots," she said.
She said there was no sign of trouble in the hours leading up to the shooting.
"It was really quiet, it was empty, no one was around," she said.
A 40-year-old man who gave his name as Tony said he heard a series of shots
just after midnight, and saw a group of around five young men on bikes cycle
casually away from the estate.
All the men who were in their late teens or early 20s, had their faces covered
and were wearing hooded tops.
He said he saw a shadow on the floor but did not realise it was a body until
police and paramedics arrived.
Tony said tension on the estate had been building for the past five years with
drug and gang-related problems on the rise.
"They have got a name for this place, it's Hot Spot. If you want something
like drugs you go to Hot Spot as the kids call it," he said.
He said the area was so notorious it was mentioned on the internet as a place
to buy drugs and young men wore hooded tops with Hot Spot and SW9 printed on
them.
Tony said there had been CCTV in the area but one camera, attached to a
lamppost, was recently taken down.
"What they do is smash the lights so no one can see what they are doing," he
said.
He said the majority of people who hang around the estate come in from other
areas of south London such as Streatham and Peckham.
"I have a 16-year-old son and a 13-year-old daughter and I am terrified for
them. It's a frightening atmosphere for kids to grow up in."
Earlier this year Tony said two men had been seen on the estate, one with a
double barrelled shotgun and one with a hand gun, but they had run off before
police arrived.
"It's an everyday thing to us. While it's sad and you send your condolences to
the family who have lost an important member of the family, to the majority of
people this has been expected. It was just a matter of time," Tony said.
A 16-year-old girl who did not want to be named said she had heard the shooting
was linked to an argument that broke out at Brockwell Park fair at the weekend.
She said there was rivalry between Herne Hill and Stockwell gangs.
The girl said she had also seen a group of about five or six hooded young men
cycle away from the estate before paramedics arrived and tried to resuscitate
the boy. She said she had watched from the balcony as armed police cordoned off
the car park and the boy was driven away in an ambulance.
We've got our very own 'Hot Spot' on Somerleyton Road too.
And what's the odds these fuckwits will continue their idiotic antics here now? :(
Louloubelle
26-07-2007, 15:15
The cops have just given a press conference. They described both the victim and the perpetrators as 'black'.
they said that the boy had been chased by several youths wearing bandanas and this suggested that the perpetrators might have been in a gang, (although he later said that it wasn't necessarily gang related).
:(
Initial unconfirmed reports are that 2 guns were involved
A group of kids is not a gang. A gang implies a group organised to protect each other and/or their territory, be that an area, school or drug trade, or whatever. A group of kids is just a group of kids.
Labelling groups of kids as gangs is dangerous, they might start acting like they are when they were not before, and encourages Daily Mail style fear in the community of all kids. Most kids in Lambeth have got enough to worry about from the proper wronguns.
PacificOcean
26-07-2007, 15:31
A group of kids is not a gang. A gang implies a group organised to protect each other and/or their territory, be that an area, school or drug trade, or whatever. A group of kids is just a group of kids.
Labelling groups of kids as gangs is dangerous, they might start acting like they are when they were not before, and encourages Daily Mail style fear in the community of all kids. Most kids in Lambeth have got enough to worry about from the proper wronguns.
Aren't they trying to emulate real gangs though.
Aren't they all "crews"?
That suggests that all groups of kids hanging about together want to be in a gang. It's a huge generalisation of all bored teenagers and just isn't true.
I used to hang about with mates as a teenager, there wasn't anything else to do and we were skint. I didn't want to be in a gang. I'm sure many people on here were/are the same.
Louloubelle
26-07-2007, 16:53
That suggests that all groups of kids hanging about together want to be in a gang. It's a huge generalisation of all bored teenagers and just isn't true.
I used to hang about with mates as a teenager, there wasn't anything else to do and we were skint. I didn't want to be in a gang. I'm sure many people on here were/are the same.
I interviewed a few youth workers whose remit was to work with gangs and they all said that gangs were just groups of kids from the same estate or school who hung out together and who looked after each other's interests and backed each other up in the case that any were threatened.
They didn't like to use the word gang, but what the kids that they worked with were doing (having big fights and stabbing each other over territory and long running disputes) were the sort of things that most people understand that gangs do.
There are a few gangs where I live and you can tell them apart by how they dress and what they wear on their heads, even down to how they wear their hats. I'm no expert mind you, you just pick this stuff up when you live in the middle of it all.
eta
I agree with you that not all kids who hang about together are in gangs, but I was just noticing the reluctance of some people to use the G word even when it was obvious that kids were in what for all extents and purposes are gangs
ATOMIC SUPLEX
26-07-2007, 17:07
Holy shit, I used to live on Jefferys road and kids on bikes mugged and (sort of) knifed me near my home a few years ago. I lived in terror for ages.
PacificOcean
26-07-2007, 17:44
Stockwell has always been really rough.
Even when I was growing up in the 80's.
Tricky Skills
26-07-2007, 18:45
Stockwell has always been really rough.
Even when I was growing up in the 80's.
:rolleyes:
Twelve years in SW8 and crime free.
Pockets of Stockwell are shit. Pockets of Pimlico are shit.
It's not all hoodies, bandanas and bullets. Not seen a Joanna Lumley photofit on the news recently.
http://217.112.82.87/~michlcou/260707/7_f.JPG
PacificOcean
26-07-2007, 18:50
:rolleyes:
Twelve years in SW8 and crime free.
Pockets of Stockwell are shit. Pockets of Pimlico are shit.
It's not all hoodies, bandanas and bullets. Not seen a Joanna Lumley photofit on the news recently.
http://217.112.82.87/~michlcou/260707/7_f.JPG
Bollocks.
I didn't move into Stockwell. It was the area I grew up in from a baby.
And Stockwell has always been rough as arseholes.
Tricky Skills
26-07-2007, 19:00
Bollocks back, 'birth right' or not.
Priory Grove, Durand Gardens, Stockwell Park Crescent - I don't see many rough as arseholes walking around there.
likesfish
27-07-2007, 07:30
there a group of kids they have firearms there a gang ffs:mad:
or some cadet units gone completely feral :rolleyes:
I spotted a couple of decidedly dodgy types whilst passing through Durand Gardens on my way to the Horizons pool yesterday.
Stockwell has always been really rough.
Even when I was growing up in the 80's.
Lots of areas have always been seen as "rough".
But "rough" used to mean "maybe get robbed", don't wander around on your own at night, a few fights and shit, it didn't used to mean 16 year olds shooting each other dead every fortnight.
What has happened so far this year is fucking scary.
Giles..
dynamicbaddog
28-07-2007, 14:13
What has happened so far this year is fucking scary.
Giles..
well scary:( , just 2 days before this incident there was huge fight between 2 groups of kids on the Old Kent Road which left a 15 year old lying in a pool of blood:eek:
and it's only one week into the school holidays.....
Looks like they got the cowardly cunt responsible for the murder:
Man remanded over boy's gun death
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6920301.stm
He's 20 years old.
Looks like they got the cowardly cunt responsible for the murder:
Man remanded over boy's gun death
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6920301.stm
He's 20 years old.
God, now that he's sitting in a police cell staring at the f***ing wall, I hope he thinks it was worth it.
Can't let some little c**t diss me, can't let some..... bang bang, sorted him out, no-one will mess with me no more, oh what's this, 20 years in prison? FFS.
Giles..
Gingerman
28-07-2007, 22:43
well scary:( , just 2 days before this incident there was huge fight between 2 groups of kids on the Old Kent Road which left a 15 year old lying in a pool of blood:eek:
and it's only one week into the school holidays.....
Was this outside the Fire Station? Noticed one of those yellow police boards saying that a youth was badly assualted,on my way home from work last week.
ShiftyBagLady
29-07-2007, 01:22
I spotted a couple of decidedly dodgy types whilst passing through Durand Gardens on my way to the Horizons pool yesterday.
somebody was mugged by a couple of schoolboys in broad daylight on hackford road a while ago, i saw them running off and when i got ot the top of the road i found out hed had his jewellery and phone snatched opposite a building site, not one of them or any passers by intervened
ps is that gym/pool any good? im thinking of joining
This is all very depressing.
Why, why, why are kids toting guns? Back in the day, you got into a dispute with another kid from another school/estate/area and you sorted it out mano a mano with the vague but unlikely threat of others joining in and it was over with no serious casualties and a mutual respect for any one that held their own. It was all knowing nods after school and nothing else beyond that.
I always wanted to start a family and raise my kids in the city I grew up in and love...now I'm really not so sure.
RIP and my condolences to the family.
muckypup
29-07-2007, 03:05
This is all very depressing.
Why, why, why are kids toting guns?
Frustrated, angry, disillusioned, unhappy and quite probably in mental anguish.
Why do they feel this way ? Perhaps, and I'm speculating here, something about the socio political nature of modernity leads people to feelings of such intense despair and anger. Both of which are opposite sides of the same coin.
Also, pretty much the same reason why people descend into serious drug abuse.
Citizen66
29-07-2007, 09:41
I watched that Ross Kemp on gangs (lol :D) and the black community all seem to equally believe that the blame for the current situation lies firmly with the government.
I don't know how to feel about that really, I haven't thought about it too much. I can understand that they may feel that having the streets awash with guns and crack cocaine is a modern way to keep the black man in his place but isn't it also to deflect the blame from their own short-comings as to where they've gone wrong as a community? Does the blame lie solely with the government, after all, they set the constraints and conditions for these circumastances to arise and are ultimately responsible for policing etc...
As another poster mentioned earlier it's a self-perpetuating cycle and the sad fact is that kids actually feel safer to be in a gang than not in one.
Any talk of blaming anyone else for this behaviour pisses me off. You are what you do. And if what you do is take up guns and crack dealing, then you are scum, simple as.
People choose to follow a certain lifestyle because they want to.
They like the power of being able to intimidate others with their gangs and the ever-present threat of serious violence.
They like "ruling" their estate, and watching the "ordinary people" fear them, and they like the feeling of being able to behave outrageously, knowing that no-one will dare to challenge them for fear of what they will do.
"Frustrated, angry, disillusioned, unhappy and quite probably in mental anguish."??? Why? They aren't that badly off, really.
Why don't they just go and do something better? Go to a rave and do some Es would probably be an improvement......
They've got the whole of London on their fucking doorsteps, there's no need to spend all your time hanging around in some shithole, robbing people and then killing some kid from the next estate for some imagined "diss".
Giles..
I watched that Ross Kemp on gangs (lol :D) and the black community all seem to equally believe that the blame for the current situation lies firmly with the government.
I don't know how to feel about that really, I haven't thought about it too much. I can understand that they may feel that having the streets awash with guns and crack cocaine is a modern way to keep the black man in his place but isn't it also to deflect the blame from their own short-comings as to where they've gone wrong as a community? Does the blame lie solely with the government, after all, they set the constraints and conditions for these circumastances to arise and are ultimately responsible for policing etc...
As another poster mentioned earlier it's a self-perpetuating cycle and the sad fact is that kids actually feel safer to be in a gang than not in one.
This "its all a government plot to do down black people" is the biggest load of bollocks I have ever heard. Does crack not work on white people, then? Or Asians, or Chinese?
Giles..
ViolentPanda
30-07-2007, 17:48
I spotted a couple of decidedly dodgy types whilst passing through Durand Gardens on my way to the Horizons pool yesterday.
Were they wearing black clothing and strange headgear? ;)
Citizen66
01-08-2007, 12:01
This "its all a government plot to do down black people" is the biggest load of bollocks I have ever heard. Does crack not work on white people, then? Or Asians, or Chinese?
Giles..
Is the amount of white people tooled up and smoking the crack pipes proportionate to the amount of blacks doing so in terms of demographics in the UK?
Are as many proportion of population of blacks in the Gambia on the crack as there is in Lambeth?
Stop being a simplistic muppet Giles. Thanks.
Giles - maybe a different way of looking at it is this.
Would the government be more active on the issue if these shootings were happening in the suburbs where the swing voters who decide elections live?
My answer - clearly yes.
And there's a lot that can be relatively easily done to take more guns out of circulation such as better enforcement of the borders (e.g. gun sniffer dogs at borders), more police targeting of vehicles tagged at high risk of having a gun in them and most of all simply getting more outreach to the teenagers who are victims of gun crime to get them to inform more. None of this is very expensive but it costs some money that councils find hard to afford - or are not allowed to do.
PacificOcean
01-08-2007, 12:24
Is the amount of white people tooled up and smoking the crack pipes proportionate to the amount of blacks doing so in terms of demographics in the UK?
Statistics show muggers in London are more likely to be black.
What's your point?
PacificOcean
01-08-2007, 12:25
Giles - maybe a different way of looking at it is this.
Would the government be more active on the issue if these shootings were happening in the suburbs where the swing voters who decide elections live?
My answer - clearly yes.
And there's a lot that can be relatively easily done to take more guns out of circulation such as better enforcement of the borders (e.g. gun sniffer dogs at borders), more police targeting of vehicles tagged at high risk of having a gun in them and most of all simply getting more outreach to the teenagers who are victims of gun crime to get them to inform more. None of this is very expensive but it costs some money that councils find hard to afford - or are not allowed to do.
Is Operation Trident not paid for by the Government?
Citizen66
01-08-2007, 13:16
Statistics show muggers in London are more likely to be black.
What's your point?
Statistics show that the percentage of young men incarcerated in this country are disproportionately black.
What do you think my point is?
Citizen66
02-08-2007, 11:41
Statistics show muggers in London are more likely to be black.
What's your point?
I'm waiting.... :D
PacificOcean
02-08-2007, 12:23
I'm waiting.... :D
OK I was wrong.
It's really the Government forcing black people to mug and smoke crack via some shadowy method - not free choice.
Citizen66
02-08-2007, 20:08
OK I was wrong.
It's really the Government forcing black people to mug and smoke crack via some shadowy method - not free choice.
Ooooh, you make me wanna spunk all over town with the depth of your thinking :D
Yes, you're absolutely right!!! Black people smoke more crack, shoot each other and end up in prison more regularly than their white brothers in south London out of a mere life decision at some point in time!! :D
LMAO you cock-end!!!
And that's why the Gambia has such a big problem with guns and crack, isn't it? :D hahahaha :D Twat!!
jchanning
03-08-2007, 11:33
Would the government be more active on the issue if these shootings were happening in the suburbs where the swing voters who decide elections live?
So your point is that the problems are caused by government inaction because they believe the voters of Lambeth do not matter to them?
How about another angle, why don't teenage shootings happen in the suburbs? I think we can safely say that it isn't because they are prevented by constant government intervention.
jchanning
03-08-2007, 11:35
Frustrated, angry, disillusioned, unhappy and quite probably in mental anguish.
Why do they feel this way ? Perhaps, and I'm speculating here, something about the socio political nature of modernity leads people to feelings of such intense despair and anger.
I think greed, materialism and a lack of basic values are a far more credible reasons.
Orang Utan
03-08-2007, 11:44
I think greed, materialism and a lack of basic values are a far more credible reasons.
How do these arise though?
jchanning
03-08-2007, 11:49
I think it is also worth mentioning, that the vast majority of people I have met living in Lambeth, most of my neighbours being good examples, are decent, honest, caring people. If we are to look to blame external factors for the actions of a few, then you have to seriously ask why the majority are not affected as we live on the same streets, with the same government, the same police and the same basic standard of living.
As a survivor of the holocaust said: "everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way". We are all free to make our own choices about the way we live and behave. Constantly trying to externalize the reasons for kids shooting each other doesn't help to solve the issue.
Ooooh, you make me wanna spunk all over town with the depth of your thinking :D
Yes, you're absolutely right!!! Black people smoke more crack, shoot each other and end up in prison more regularly than their white brothers in south London out of a mere life decision at some point in time!! :D
LMAO you cock-end!!!
And that's why the Gambia has such a big problem with guns and crack, isn't it? :D hahahaha :D Twat!!
What an awful and utterly bizarre comment to make. I'm more of a reader than a writer on this forum, but Lord knows I just had to respond to this!
I know for a fact some African countries impose the Death Penalty for drug use and trafficking. Those that don't such as Gambia impose very stiff penalties such as life imprisonment where in the UK you get a slap on the wrist i.e. cannabis, second on its list of dangerous drugs, two levels above cocaine! (http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/legal_library/gm/legal_library_1961-01-27_1960-121.html)
Interesting that you pick Gambia, a relatively strict muslim country where Sharia law operates unofficially in many rural areas.
You forget that African countries do not suffer from the negative role model effect where the Pete Doherty's of this world are practically celebrated for their drug addiction and many successful hip-hop artists laud murder and violence.
The flip-side is the situation of well-known fraudsters becoming politicians and business leaders, so the average poor kid on the street is more likely to send you a scam email from the cyber-cafe down the road than sniff glue or whatever.
More importantly, the positive role models aren't over-represented in sports and entertainment, every community has its own (rather less famous) version of Mandela.
I remember growing up in Lagos, and they would show the execution by firing squad of armed robbers and drug dealers and traffickers on TV.
While I am not advocating that we line people up in front of Brixton station and kill them, I can assure you that if we did so, the levels of crime and drug use would drop dramatically -if not as a deterrent, then simply because most of the criminals/crack dealers would be dead.
Interestingly enough, crime levels in Lagos skyrocketed after they stopped showing executions on TV. While correlation doesn't equal causation, feel free to make of that what you will.
Pickpocketing is also more common than mugging. Why? Because you have to be discreet and clever if you steal. If you get caught, you will most likely die by burning tyre at the hands of a lynch mob. People don't ever stand idly by as someone gets attacked in broad daylight unless the criminals are heavily armed in which case they run and hide, but they always come back to help.
So we have 1) capital punishment 2) strict moral codes imposed, often religious and zero tolerance of petty crime 3) positive role models, 4) Strong community spirit and 5) public embarassment all as reasonable deterrents. Let's even leave out the fact that the poorest council estate kid in the UK is financially much better off than all those living on pennies a day in sub-saharan Africa.
How can you then compare the situation in South London in light of all these facts and still think the problem is a (largely) white government that wants to keep black people down? If that isn't delusional, I don't know what is
There are enough examples of African governments prepared to treat their own people like dirt. The situations in Darfur and Zimbabwe are examples that even nursery school kids in the UK are aware of.
The answer to why drug problems and crime are so rife in South London but not in other parts can be found in your very revealing post.
As long as you believe the responsibility of dealing with drugs and crime lies with the government or some other external factor and not with the individual, their families, friends and immediate community, then you will never have the power to deal with it.
This negative attitude also stops those who can help from intervening. The hardest people to help out of a life of crime are those who believe they are "owed" something by their government or their communities. They demoralize you and sap your energy.
Such people are unlikely to want to take responsibility for their lives and make their own way and the younger they fall into this attitude the harder it will be to get them out of it.
What a shame. The fact that you see fit to call someone pointing this out a twat says a lot more about you than it does about any person you choose to insult.
:rolleyes:
Citizen66
04-08-2007, 16:34
What a shame. The fact that you see fit to call someone pointing this out a twat says a lot more about you than it does about any person you choose to insult.
:rolleyes:
Yours, Bothered from Bognor Regis :D
I promise to disect your shite at a later moment though when the sun ceases to shine and there's nothing better to do. :)
Citizen66
05-08-2007, 12:33
Interesting that you pick Gambia, a relatively strict muslim country where Sharia law operates unofficially in many rural areas.
You forget that African countries do not suffer from the negative role model effect where the Pete Doherty's of this world are practically celebrated for their drug addiction and many successful hip-hop artists laud murder and violence.
Do you honestly believe that US 'black' music like Snoop Dog etc isn't listened to in the Gambia?
If so, you know very little about said country and the majority of your hyperbole is mere conjecture.
You'll find that the tastes in music from young black men in the Gambia isn't much dissimilar to young black men in housing estates in Peckham.
I'm also unaware of Sharia law operating in that country. Are you sure you're not getting confused with Nigeria?
Orang Utan
05-08-2007, 12:35
I suggest that you know little too. And me.
Citizen66
05-08-2007, 20:13
I suggest that you know little too. And me.
Well I lived with a girl from there for over a year and a half so I'd like to think I'm not completely in the dark... hence me using that country as an example.
Obviously The point I was making is that social elements and also how society likes to treat black people may have something to do with the disproportionate number of them in prisons.
Or is skin colour a definition of being born criminal? I don't think so.
Yossarian
05-08-2007, 22:08
Well I lived with a girl from there for over a year and a half
Yeah, sounds like that more than qualifies you to start lecturing Africans about what things are like in Africa…
Citizen66
06-08-2007, 07:33
Yeah, sounds like that more than qualifies you to start lecturing Africans about what things are like in Africa…
Where have I lectured somebody about what it's like in Africa?
If you're gonna get your childish digs in then at least think about what it is you're saying else you end up looking a bit of a cock :)
Yossarian
07-08-2007, 14:32
Thought you was coming back to tell Mind why she's so wrong about what things are like in Africa, fucko - what with you being the expert and all...:D
Citizen66
08-08-2007, 10:06
Thought you was coming back to tell Mind why she's so wrong about what things are like in Africa, fucko - what with you being the expert and all...:D
Two quick points.
1) Unless the editor implements a new rule that we wear identity badges on our foreheads, how am I supposed to know the cultural heritage and birth place of every poster that I speak to?
2) Being of European origin myself, does that automatically qualify me to be an authority on all the cultural and historical facts of, say, Yugoslavia?
Because those are the standards you're applying to our mutual friend.
And that's all for now :D ;)
Yossarian
08-08-2007, 14:55
When a person says things like "I remember growing up in Lagos", it's sometimes possible to take a wild stab at guessing what part of the world that person might hail from, Brainiac...:D
MikeGreen
08-08-2007, 15:18
Two quick points.
1) Unless the editor implements a new rule that we wear identity badges on our foreheads, how am I supposed to know the cultural heritage and birth place of every poster that I speak to?
2) Being of European origin myself, does that automatically qualify me to be an authority on all the cultural and historical facts of, say, Yugoslavia?
Because those are the standards you're applying to our mutual friend.
And that's all for now :D ;)
Hmmm...what a response. Cough :-(
steve indigenou
08-08-2007, 20:15
A few observations on this issue of gang culture, crime, Africa and South London :
I think a balanced approach combining liberal analysis - people have choices, make choices and have to take responsibility for and be held to account for their choices is, to a certain extent, fair. You cannot insulate people from the consequences of their own actions by saying it was their environment or socialisation (or the government) that made them do it. So for the black community to say it's all the government's fault is to abdicate responsibility for a real crisis of culture within certain sections of their urban youth.
But at the same time you cannot deny the importance of certain environmental factors in shaping the behaviour of young black people (or white youths in other communities for that matter). A severe lack of opportunity and low cultural self esteem have something to do with it surely. Better education and better opportunities for young people, positive direction from role models and community leaders would help steer them in a more positive direction.
I do think there is a problem with black cultural leadership. On the one hand you have role models like 50 Cent, Puff Daddy and so on pushing a very materialistic, aggressive, macho-posturing lifestyle that the kids follow. The commercial media go along with this as it panders to people's base instincts and therefore sells well.
Then you have church leaders who seem to be into pretty fundamentalist interpretations of Christianity that don't seem to be steering their youth in a positive direction either. Many of these Church leaders seem more interested in raking in the cash than preaching true christianity.
Of course the drugs economy has a lot to do with it too. When you can earn several hundred pounds a week selling drugs, the prospect of a minimum wage mc-job has less appeal, particularly if you are an academic underachiever. It's the same with alcohol prohibition in the states and gangsterism there in the 1920s or with Crack today. If the rewards are high enough, people will resort to severe measures to protect markets. Legalisation of all drugs would help with alot, though not all, of the gang violence.
Some people have cited the Gambia, others Nigeria as examples of how things are different. Certainly Nigeria is not a usesful and constructive example of how to police a western, liberal society. Televisation of firing squads is not a realistic solution over here, or mob lynchings either.
I work a lot in Ghana, in some of the poorest urban communities in Accra. Certainly levels of poverty are worse there, though levels of community cohesion are much higher. This is partly due to the prescence of strong male role models in society and at home and domestic discipline is still strong. Elders still command the respect of the youth and neighbours will intervene to break up fights. It's become a cliche to say that many Carribean, particularly Jamaican families, lack a strong father figure and the mothers have problems keeping the young men in line. I have been told by people who know these issues better than me that there are issues dating back to slavery whereby the family structures were deliberately broken up by slave owners and the legacy of this is still seen in the violence and lack of cohesion in urban Jamaican society. There is also a problem with men impregnating women and then not hanging around to bring up their children. Better sex education would help tackle this to a certain extent.
What was said about young people joining gangs for protection and out of fear is also very true. Most of the kids are good kids, but many of them are scared witless and they find security in the gangs.
And as for this issue about not calling a gang a gang.
We regularly have gang fights on our door step in Camberwell which the police tell us are deliberately orchestrated by senior members of the gangs, much in the way that football holigans would arrange fights before games. It seems to me that the psyschology is similar - a primordial need to belong to a group with a clear identity, perhaps filling a gap left by their inability to integrate into wider society.
Getting all simplistic about it certainly won't help and the level and depth of intervention required to solve the problem is far to expensive for this government to stomach. Spending £20billion on updating Trident, £3billion on widening the M6 or however many billion on Iraq is deemed more important.
I do think that the government could do a lot more to support secular, progressive black leaders to speak out more not only about the gangsters but also the negative cultural role models that inspire them. But until the lure of drugs profits is addressed, you're fighting a losing battle.
Steve
Citizen66
09-08-2007, 09:14
When a person says things like "I remember growing up in Lagos", it's sometimes possible to take a wild stab at guessing what part of the world that person might hail from, Brainiac...:D
Oh I seeeeeeeeeeeeee... silly me, gee I'm so stoopid!!! http://www.longdog.karoo.net/smilies/dunce.gif
So on one side of the coin we have regulars like cheesypoof who expresses having a condition called synthesia and yet a fair number of long-standing posters relentlessly accuse her of feigning it in order to gain attention. Then on the other side of the coin you're willing to swallow every word of a 6-post wonder because it happens to fall in line with your agenda to get some little digs in? :rolleyes:
Growing up in Lagos doesn't automatically make you an authority on the cultural elements of inner city Banjul and a man as well travelled as yourself knows fine well that Africa is a continent and not a country.
Is the amount of white people tooled up and smoking the crack pipes proportionate to the amount of blacks doing so in terms of demographics in the UK?
Are as many proportion of population of blacks in the Gambia on the crack as there is in Lambeth?
Stop being a simplistic muppet Giles. Thanks.
I am not being simplistic.
I was just pointing out that somehow blaming the current situation on some weird conspiracy is rubbish. No-one has to get into smoking crack, or selling it. There is no reason at all why any particular race or skin colour should me more prone to do so than any other that I can see.
Giles..
steve indigenou
09-08-2007, 12:21
Giles,
race is a component here I think. You only have to observe that most, if not all, of the young men who are vicitms of perpetrators of this kind of gang violence are black to conclude that race is an issue.
Why ?
Because certain social factors such as poverty, fragmented families, low aspirations, lack of strong fathers etc seem to be affecting the black community more than other communities. But even within the Black community, you have to be careful not to generalise. Some black communities, such as the Ghanaian one, have a greater level of cohesion than say the Jamaican one, meaning that Ghanaian youth are less likely to fall into crime.
It comes down to the nature of choice. Do you really think that the same choices that are open to you, with your family background, education and culture are open to Jamaican youth living in Stockwell or Brixton ?
Giving some thought to why these kids make the choices they do would be helpful. And what can be done to encourage them to make better choices.
Steve
PacificOcean
09-08-2007, 12:27
It comes down to the nature of choice. Do you really think that the same choices that are open to you, with your family background, education and culture are open to Jamaican youth living in Stockwell or Brixton ?
I am white and grew up very poor in Clapham (years before it became trendy). I made something of myself as did someone I grew up with who was black and poor and who now works for an investment bank.
We are lucky that in this country that you can make something of yourself if you want to - you just need to apply yourself.
Giles,
race is a component here I think. You only have to observe that most, if not all, of the young men who are vicitms of perpetrators of this kind of gang violence are black to conclude that race is an issue.
Why ?
Because certain social factors such as poverty, fragmented families, low aspirations, lack of strong fathers etc seem to be affecting the black community more than other communities. But even within the Black community, you have to be careful not to generalise. Some black communities, such as the Ghanaian one, have a greater level of cohesion than say the Jamaican one, meaning that Ghanaian youth are less likely to fall into crime.
It comes down to the nature of choice. Do you really think that the same choices that are open to you, with your family background, education and culture are open to Jamaican youth living in Stockwell or Brixton ?
Giving some thought to why these kids make the choices they do would be helpful. And what can be done to encourage them to make better choices.
Steve
Steve
I know that race is clearly an issue here, and the different cultures that either encourage or discourage a drift into crime and violence. I am not disagreeing with you on any of this.
What I was disagreeing with is the belief among some in the black community that there is some sort of bizarre conspiracy on the part of "the government" that in some way forces them into crime / drugs / whatever (as referred to in post number 52 of this thread). That's all.
You are what you do, is my opinion.
Giles..
I am white and grew up very poor in Clapham (years before it became trendy). I made something of myself as did someone I grew up with who was black and poor and who now works for an investment bank.
We are lucky that in this country that you can make something of yourself if you want to - you just need to apply yourself.
http://www.e-pix.org/data/media/77/not_this_shit_again.jpg
http://www.e-pix.org/data/media/77/not_this_shit_again.jpg
Merely posting up a "funny" picture and comment doesn't really add much here.
Are you saying that he is incorrect in his statement that you can choose your own way in life, whatever your background, or something else?
Giles..
It was a comment on the simplistic idiocy of the statement "you just need to apply yourself".
tarannau
09-08-2007, 14:39
Christ, if PO thinks that his well dressed religious school is typical of the comprehensives that most black youths go to around here, then he's really fooling himself. Simply by going to that school more opportunites were likely to have opened up to him and his friend. Sadly, there's not the same culture of learning and achievement in many of Lambeth's schools - it's possible to succeed, but you'd have to work harder and set yourself apart in some ways.
PacificOcean
09-08-2007, 14:53
Christ, if PO thinks that his well dressed religious school is typical of the comprehensives that most black youths go to around here, then he's really fooling himself. Simply by going to that school more opportunites were likely to have opened up to him and his friend. Sadly, there's not the same culture of learning and achievement in many of Lambeth's schools - it's possible to succeed, but you'd have to work harder and set yourself apart in some ways.
eh?
Salesian was a crummy state school when I went. It's now grant maintained but it's still a shit hole. We gained no special opportunites going there. Also, I went to St. Francis Sixth Form after Salesian which is a mix of all secondarys in Lambeth and some from Wandsworth. So for sixth form I was in with students from the Lambeth comps you describe and there was lots of black kids doing A-Levels - they seemed to manage it.
And I hardly think those hideous maroon blazers made us well dressed.
Orang Utan
09-08-2007, 14:54
Not all kids are clever though
And parents and peers matter far more than what school you go to.
PacificOcean
09-08-2007, 15:00
Not all kids are clever though
So why don't thick white kids join gangs?
So why don't thick white kids join gangs?
White kids do join gangs.
So why don't thick white kids join gangs?
Don't they? :confused:
PacificOcean
09-08-2007, 15:01
And parents and peers matter far more than what school you go to.
Again, why don't white kids from broken families join gangs?
PacificOcean
09-08-2007, 15:01
Don't they? :confused:
Why are all the kids getting shot black?
Again, why don't white kids from broken families join gangs?
I thought they did, judging by the groups of kids I see in the streets round here.
Orang Utan
09-08-2007, 15:05
Again, why don't white kids from broken families join gangs?
They do
Orang Utan
09-08-2007, 15:07
Why are all the kids getting shot black?
The odd white kid gets shot too
I don't like what you're getting at here - are you saying only black people get shot or shoot, not because of poverty or lack of education, but merely becuase they are black? :confused:
PacificOcean
09-08-2007, 15:20
The odd white kid gets shot too
I don't like what you're getting at here - are you saying only black people get shot or shoot, not because of poverty or lack of education, but merely becuase they are black? :confused:
No.
I am just saying that poverty and lack of education is a poor excuse for gang culture.
There are black and white kids who work there way up from nothing. I was one and I knew lots of others. Also, I knew black and white kids who wern't bright but didn't get involved in gangs.
I think it's more to to with the gansta bling culture being held as an ideal and not wanting to use hard graft to get there.
I still stand by my assersion that hip hop culture has a big hand in this.
likesfish
09-08-2007, 15:20
well if theres an armed gang on your street probably harder to stay out of it than you imagine.:(
even mad dog adair figured out if he'd been born a few streets away he'd have joined the ira
No.
I am just saying that poverty and lack of education is a poor excuse for gang culture.
There are black and white kids who work there way up from nothing. I was one and I knew lots of others. Also, I knew black and white kids who wern't bright but didn't get involved in gangs.
I think it's more to to with the gansta bling culture being held as an ideal and not wanting to use hard graft to get there.
I still stand by my assersion that hip hop culture has a big hand in this.
http://www.e-pix.org/data/media/77/not_this_shit_again.jpg
Yours, Bothered from Bognor Regis :D
I promise to disect your shite at a later moment though when the sun ceases to shine and there's nothing better to do. :)
.. and there I was holding my breath for a dis[sic]ection and instead I got your poor excuse for a response below.
Do you honestly believe that US 'black' music like Snoop Dog etc isn't listened to in the Gambia?
Listening to a certain type of music doesn't mean it's your culture. A typical Wolof boy could listen to both Mbalax and Gangsta Rap but his own cultural music will obviously have more of an effect.
You'll find that the tastes in music from young black men in the Gambia isn't much dissimilar to young black men in housing estates in Peckham.
Yes, but the difference is that the boy in The Gambia probably also listens to Youssou N'Dour a very positive influence who is celebrated there more than in London.
I'm also unaware of Sharia law operating in that country. Are you sure you're not getting confused with Nigeria?
Thank you for patronising.
The reason why you don't know is because you are uninformed. Do not take your ignorance to be the truth. Gambia is a majority Muslim country with high levels of illiteracy. Of course Sharia Law operates there.
I see you ignored the fact that I said:
Sharia law operates unofficially in many rural areas.
Or do you just not know what unofficially means?
For your Information Muslim Law definitely operates in the Gambia as this speech by their president last year proves (http://www.thepoint.gm/for%20the%20records50.htm):
If the text is too difficult for you to understand, allow me to copy and paste some of the more relevant bits
"The introduction of Muslim court one hundred years ago marked the beginning of an important milestone in judicial development in this country. This court which was created at the request of the elders of Banjul was mandated “to judge the affairs of Muslims connected with their marriages, succession, gifts, legacies and guardianship according to Muslim law”.
After 100 years of existence, it is essential to take stock of the Muslim Court system. ....In this 12th Anniversary of the 22nd July Revolution, we are proud to record visible developments in the Muslim Court system."
Well I lived with a girl from there for over a year and a half so I'd like to think I'm not completely in the dark... hence me using that country as an example.
The fact that you lived there for so long and know so little suggests that you spent most of your time behind some European-centric gated community. Buying fish from the locals does not an expert make.
2) Being of European origin myself, does that automatically qualify me to be an authority on all the cultural and historical facts of, say, Yugoslavia?
No, but that's a dumb analogy. Countries in West Africa are more alike than people realise. Certainly more so than in Eastern and Western Europe.
The artificial boundaries drawn up the the UK and France mean that you are quite likely to find more people of your own ethnic group in other countries than in your own. e.g. the Hausas should be a horizontal country in their own right and not split into 15 or 16 vertical units across ECOWAS. One reason why you're more likely to get civil wars than wars between countries.
Then on the other side of the coin you're willing to swallow every word of a 6-post wonder because it happens to fall in line with your agenda to get some little digs in?
If the fact that you have written 5,175 posts more than me is your claim to superiority, let me remind you that empty barrels make the most noise, and quantity does not mean quality. I'd rather have 1 meaningful post than 5,000 individual posts that are nothing but dross and ignorant posturing.
Growing up in Lagos doesn't automatically make you an authority on the cultural elements of inner city Banjul
No, but the topic here, lest we forget is not Gambia but South London.
You are the one who brought up a flawed reference to Gambia, thinking there were enough similarities beween the two to draw a like for like comparison.
At least you're not that insulting when discussing European communities in the UK and Yugoslavia.
Regardless of what others say, this is not about me being more black or more African than you. Whether or not you think I really am an African woman or a sock puppet is your problem, not mine. I'm not going to have an identity crisis. This is about me having the luxury of having lived and work in both the UK and Nigeria as a full citizen, not a tourist, visitor or migrant. So I can compare and contrast the lives of similar groups of people in London, Lagos and yes even Accra and Banjul alot better than you can after your stint in the Gambia.
Anyway, I think we've strayed enough off this topic, feel free to private message me if you want to continue the discussion. I probably won't reply as you seem more interested in insulting people than adding anything useful to the debate.
You had absolutely no valid critique on what I said, calling it "shite" has fooled no one and it is very obvious that your response was more of wounded pride than a devastating riposte.
I think that more should be done to make people financially responsible for their own kids. That might help.
Giles..
I think that more should be done to make people financially responsible for their own kids. That might help.
Giles..
Pretty difficult to be "financially responsible" (as you put it) when you're on a low wage. Personally I think employers should give full pay maternity pay for 12 months at least. Women should not be put in a situation where they are forced to return to work by economic circumstances and leave their baby in the care of strangers at 3 months.
Citizen66
10-08-2007, 11:50
Listening to a certain type of music doesn't mean it's your culture.
Where have I stated that it's their 'culture'? :D
You don't need to put words into my mouth to form an argument you know. I said that boys living in Banjul probably aren't too dissimilar from boys the same age living in Peckham when it comes to music tastes.
I don't have the time right now to pick over the rest of what you've said as I've got limited net access at the moment but if it follows the lines of you inventing what it is that I've said then why the fuck bother?
I'll try at the weekend though, just for you :)
Citizen66
10-08-2007, 13:07
.. and there I was holding my breath for a dis[sic]ection and instead I got your poor excuse for a response below.
Listening to a certain type of music doesn't mean it's your culture. A typical Wolof boy could listen to both Mbalax and Gangsta Rap but his own cultural music will obviously have more of an effect.
Yes, but the difference is that the boy in The Gambia probably also listens to Youssou N'Dour a very positive influence who is celebrated there more than in London.
Thank you for patronising.
The reason why you don't know is because you are uninformed. Do not take your ignorance to be the truth. Gambia is a majority Muslim country with high levels of illiteracy. Of course Sharia Law operates there.
I see you ignored the fact that I said:
Sharia law operates unofficially in many rural areas.
Or do you just not know what unofficially means?
For your Information Muslim Law definitely operates in the Gambia as this speech by their president last year proves (http://www.thepoint.gm/for%20the%20records50.htm):
If the text is too difficult for you to understand, allow me to copy and paste some of the more relevant bits
"The introduction of Muslim court one hundred years ago marked the beginning of an important milestone in judicial development in this country. This court which was created at the request of the elders of Banjul was mandated “to judge the affairs of Muslims connected with their marriages, succession, gifts, legacies and guardianship according to Muslim law”.
After 100 years of existence, it is essential to take stock of the Muslim Court system. ....In this 12th Anniversary of the 22nd July Revolution, we are proud to record visible developments in the Muslim Court system."
The fact that you lived there for so long and know so little suggests that you spent most of your time behind some European-centric gated community. Buying fish from the locals does not an expert make.
No, but that's a dumb analogy. Countries in West Africa are more alike than people realise. Certainly more so than in Eastern and Western Europe.
The artificial boundaries drawn up the the UK and France mean that you are quite likely to find more people of your own ethnic group in other countries than in your own. e.g. the Hausas should be a horizontal country in their own right and not split into 15 or 16 vertical units across ECOWAS. One reason why you're more likely to get civil wars than wars between countries.
If the fact that you have written 5,175 posts more than me is your claim to superiority, let me remind you that empty barrels make the most noise, and quantity does not mean quality. I'd rather have 1 meaningful post than 5,000 individual posts that are nothing but dross and ignorant posturing.
No, but the topic here, lest we forget is not Gambia but South London.
You are the one who brought up a flawed reference to Gambia, thinking there were enough similarities beween the two to draw a like for like comparison.
At least you're not that insulting when discussing European communities in the UK and Yugoslavia.
Regardless of what others say, this is not about me being more black or more African than you. Whether or not you think I really am an African woman or a sock puppet is your problem, not mine. I'm not going to have an identity crisis. This is about me having the luxury of having lived and work in both the UK and Nigeria as a full citizen, not a tourist, visitor or migrant. So I can compare and contrast the lives of similar groups of people in London, Lagos and yes even Accra and Banjul alot better than you can after your stint in the Gambia.
Anyway, I think we've strayed enough off this topic, feel free to private message me if you want to continue the discussion. I probably won't reply as you seem more interested in insulting people than adding anything useful to the debate.
You had absolutely no valid critique on what I said, calling it "shite" has fooled no one and it is very obvious that your response was more of wounded pride than a devastating riposte.
So you've contradicted yourself :D
On the one hand you say that wolof boys are different from other groups (mandingos?) and thyen you continue to say that west African countries are similar to each other :rolleyes:
I'm aware that Gambians listen to music from the Senegal like Yousoou N'dour but that doesn't escape the fact that they will also listen to gangsta rap. I'm not making this up I am speaking from experience.
It's very difficult to debate with you as you're telling me things I already know and have moved off topic to my original points.
Your sad attempt to patronise me by quoting the president of the Gambia speaking about Sharia law in the country was in response to me saying I was not aware of it operating... I didn't dispute that it does.
You're new here and you're just wanting to metaphorically wave your cock about to get a name for yourself :rolleyes:
C66 - Mind may be new here but what she has to say is interesting AND well argued.
Pretty difficult to be "financially responsible" (as you put it) when you're on a low wage. Personally I think employers should give full pay maternity pay for 12 months at least. Women should not be put in a situation where they are forced to return to work by economic circumstances and leave their baby in the care of strangers at 3 months.
I am not talking really about maternity pay.
I am talking about the prevalent culture of teenage girls having kids that they cannot possibly support, by guys who frequently make no effort to support or care for their offspring either.
Giles..
I am not talking really about maternity pay.
I am talking about the prevalent culture of teenage girls having kids that they cannot possibly support, by guys who frequently make no effort to support or care for their offspring either.
Giles..
Life's oh so simple in Giles world isn't it?
Life's oh so simple in Giles world isn't it?
The solutions may not be simple, but the stats generally show that when you have a concentration of single parents (I mean YOUNG single parents, not so much older people who are single due to divorce, separation) bringing up kids, especially boys, you reliably get a generation of out-of-control teenage lads, beyond the ability of their parents to tell them anything about how to behave.
Stir in low aspirations, a culture that says that achieving anything at (or even attending) school is shit, and admires uber-macho posing, the money to be made from drugs, and you have what we see now.
My first step to trying to solve this would have to be to legalise the drugs trade: this would take away the lure of relatively massive amounts of money to be made at a young age, and at the same time take away the reasons for many of the recent killings - although not all.
That and make having a kid on your own aged 16 a viable option....
Giles..
C66 - Mind may be new here but what she has to say is interesting AND well argued.
Thank you.
Thank you.
You're very welcome. Though I should warn you that, like you, I read much more than I post and because my post count is comparatively small those willy wavers that have been giving you a hard time will probably shout me down because their post count is bigger than mine. I think they believe that size really does matter. ;) :D
:D
I am not talking really about maternity pay.
I am talking about the prevalent culture of teenage girls having kids that they cannot possibly support, by guys who frequently make no effort to support or care for their offspring either.
By the way, I completely agree with you Giles.
Very few women are forced to get pregnant.
Contraception is free for all women in the UK as long as you get it from your GP.
While you may have little control over how much you earn, you do have a lot of control over when you choose to have kids and what sort of partner you want to have your kids with.
Maternity Pay is a complete red herring here and I disagree with the 12 month maternity pay solution Blagsta proposes:
This will benefit those who need it least e.g. married City Lawyers on £100k a year with wealthy partners,
Have no effect whatsoever on those who need it the most i.e low earning self-employed women and
Have a net negative effect on your typical Brixton woman in a low paid job at a hairdressing salon, where the profit margin is barely enough to keep the business going without having to pay a year's salary to someone who will not be coming into work.
More importantly, any 12 month Maternity Leave will end a good decade before your child becomes at real risk of descending into a life of crime.
Mr Retro
10-08-2007, 22:57
:D
By the way, I completely agree with you Giles.
Very few women are forced to get pregnant.
Contraception is free for all women in the UK as long as you get it from your GP.
While you may have little control over how much you earn, you do have a lot of control over when you choose to have kids and what sort of partner you want to have your kids with.
Maternity Pay is a complete red herring here and I disagree with the 12 month maternity pay solution Blagsta proposes:
This will benefit those who need it least e.g. married City Lawyers on £100k a year with wealthy partners,
Have no effect whatsoever on those who need it the most i.e low earning self-employed women and
Have a net negative effect on your typical Brixton woman in a low paid job at a hairdressing salon, where the profit margin is barely enough to keep the business going without having to pay a year's salary to someone who will not be coming into work.
More importantly, any 12 month Maternity Leave will end a good decade before your child becomes at real risk of descending into a life of crime.
I totally agree.
:D
By the way, I completely agree with you Giles.
Very few women are forced to get pregnant.
Contraception is free for all women in the UK as long as you get it from your GP.
While you may have little control over how much you earn, you do have a lot of control over when you choose to have kids and what sort of partner you want to have your kids with.
Maternity Pay is a complete red herring here and I disagree with the 12 month maternity pay solution Blagsta proposes:
This will benefit those who need it least e.g. married City Lawyers on £100k a year with wealthy partners,
Have no effect whatsoever on those who need it the most i.e low earning self-employed women and
Have a net negative effect on your typical Brixton woman in a low paid job at a hairdressing salon, where the profit margin is barely enough to keep the business going without having to pay a year's salary to someone who will not be coming into work.
More importantly, any 12 month Maternity Leave will end a good decade before your child becomes at real risk of descending into a life of crime.
So you think that forcing people to put their kids into nursery at 3 months is a good thing? Insecure babies become insecure teenagers.
Citizen66
11-08-2007, 09:33
You're very welcome. Though I should warn you that, like you, I read much more than I post and because my post count is comparatively small those willy wavers that have been giving you a hard time will probably shout me down because their post count is bigger than mine. I think they believe that size really does matter. ;) :D
Get over yourselves :rolleyes:
I suspect you two are probably pals on msn and we'll see a lot more of your mutual back-slapping around the forums from now on. Or you could spare us the double act.
Get over yourselves :rolleyes:
I suspect you two are probably pals on msn and we'll see a lot more of your mutual back-slapping around the forums from now on. Or you could spare us the double act.
Wave that willy :D
:D
By the way, I completely agree with you Giles.
Very few women are forced to get pregnant.
Contraception is free for all women in the UK as long as you get it from your GP.
While you may have little control over how much you earn, you do have a lot of control over when you choose to have kids and what sort of partner you want to have your kids with.
Indeed, women are not forced to become pregnant. However, you're ignoring the psychological aspect to this. Becoming pregnant at a young age is a way of feeling useful, validated, giving your life some meaning, getting some love. Why do you thing the teenage pregnancy rate is higher in deprived areas? Improving education, giving young people's lives meaning is what is needed, it has nothing to do with access to contraception, or "control" over who you sleep with. These psychological processes are largerly unconscious.
Citizen66
11-08-2007, 09:50
Wave that willy :D
Only if I'm gonna get something out of it ;)
So you think that forcing people to put their kids into nursery at 3 months is a good thing? .
No, just that 12 months of full pay off work will not help those who need the most assistance. Especially when the law already gives all women over 9 months (39 weeks) maternity pay.
Insecure babies become insecure teenagers.
Yes, but many secure babies also grow up to be insecure teenagers and vice-versa.
Apart from the reasons I stated above, I just don't think the decision to wield a gun aged 14 depends on whether your mother had 12 months full maternity pay.
Indeed, women are not forced to become pregnant. However, you're ignoring the psychological aspect to this. Becoming pregnant at a young age is a way of feeling useful, validated, giving your life some meaning, getting some love. Why do you thing the teenage pregnancy rate is higher in deprived areas? .
I don't disagree with any of that, but as Black Brits, if we continue to wait for someone else, usually the government to solve our problems, to give us a reason to feel useful and validated as you say, instead of dealing with it ourselves,then we are in for a VERY LONG WAIT indeed.
Improving education, giving young people's lives meaning is what is needed, it
has nothing to do with access to contraception, or "control" over who you sleep with. These psychological processes are largerly unconscious.
Whether you like it or not, as a woman I can tell you that access to contraception can make or break you. Nothing changes your life in quite the same way as having a baby. Men can walk away from kids a helluva lot more easily than women can that's for sure.
While improving education sounds like a great place to start, it won't matter if there are high levels of truancy, and of those who turn up a small percentage do not want to learn and are able to disrupt or distract classes for the rest, which was my general feeling when I was a school governor.
It also sounds a bit empty when those who have access to free education, free healthcare, and in many cases free housing complain that they don't have enough, when hundreds of thousands of people around the world risk their lives to get here just so they can have a tiny bit of what we dismiss, simply because some wealthy person in Kensington has so much more.
Personally I can't think of a single example where any government succeeded in giving people's lives meaning. People and communities tend to get on with it and do it for themelves while the government plays catch up. Not the other way round.
No, just that 12 months of full pay off work will not help those who need the most assistance. Especially when the law already gives all women over 9 months (39 weeks) maternity pay.
SMP isn't much. I understand what you say about people on very low wages. However, my point still stands - economically forcing women to put their babies in the care of a stranger at 3 months, 6 months or even 9 months is wrong.
Yes, but many secure babies also grow up to be insecure teenagers and vice-versa.
Apart from the reasons I stated above, I just don't think the decision to wield a gun aged 14 depends on whether your mother had 12 months full maternity pay.
Children who are more securely attached develop less emotional problems later in life. Children who get involved in crime, drugs etc tend to have had insecure upbringings. There's a very real connection.
I don't disagree with any of that, but as Black Brits, if we continue to wait for someone else, usually the government to solve our problems, to give us a reason to feel useful and validated as you say, instead of dealing with it ourselves,then we are in for a VERY LONG WAIT indeed.
Well I'm not a black brit, but I agree with you there. The initiative must come from the community.
Whether you like it or not, as a woman I can tell you that access to contraception can make or break you. Nothing changes your life in quite the same way as having a baby. Men can walk away from kids a helluva lot more easily than women can that's for sure.
I think you missed my point.
While improving education sounds like a great place to start, it won't matter if there are high levels of truancy, and of those who turn up a small percentage do not want to learn and are able to disrupt or distract classes for the rest, which was my general feeling when I was a school governor.
If you improve education, more kids will go to school. Kids naturally want to learn. Make school more relevant and more interesting and kids will want to learn.
It also sounds a bit empty when those who have access to free education, free healthcare, and in many cases free housing complain that they don't have enough, when hundreds of thousands of people around the world risk their lives to get here just so they can have a tiny bit of what we dismiss, simply because some wealthy person in Kensington has so much more.
Except we don't really have free housing anymore do we? Most social housing has been sold off. Lambeth council has sold a lot of schoolsl off. The NHS is being carved up and sold off.
Personally I can't think of a single example where any government succeeded in giving people's lives meaning. People and communities tend to get on with it and do it for themelves while the government plays catch up. Not the other way round.
Agreed.
likesfish
12-08-2007, 10:55
the goverment can make it impossible for the gangs to operate we are not talking about
an insurgency just criminal youth gangs swap the estates effected with cops psco's or even troops for 6 months no more gang :(. difficult to deal drugs if theres a foot patrol and monitored cctv everywhere and a couple of local plod stations plus you customer base isn't going to be coming in :(
thats phase one the sticky plaster
phase two is harder but doable revamp schools other education training employment ops. still doable.
make being a neet difficult phase one will have cut out most alternative forms of income and either killed or captured any gangster who wants to to stay in business.
IT comes down to money and political wing if we have the will to travel to iraq to fuck over a country we surely have the will to deal with a few gun toting low life scum
Yossarian
13-08-2007, 14:15
I'm aware that Gambians listen to music from the Senegal like Yousoou N'dour but that doesn't escape the fact that they will also listen to gangsta rap. I'm not making this up I am speaking from experience.
You've never even been there, have you?
steve indigenou
13-08-2007, 15:05
Even if young people in the Gambia (or Ghana, Nigeria or other African countries) do listen to Gangsta Rap, these negative influences are counteracted by other local cultural forces which have a cohesive effect. In all my time spent working in the poorer areas of urban Accra, I have never heard of the kind of problems we are experiencing. They don't have Sharia law there, so that's not a factor either. They do, however, have strong, cohesive communities with a very strong family structure where the elders generally keep the youth in line. And the povery there is much worse than here.
Lack of a cohesive community is one element of poverty. You can havr materially poor yet culturally rich, cohesive communities. The Old Accra area of Accra is one such area - one of the poorest, dirtiest, most crowded parts of Accra yet even when some people share a water-pipe with 200 others they don't resort to the depths of anti-social beahvior seen in South London.
Cultural influences are definitely a factor.
Most West African countries have strong local music industries, Senegal and Mali particularly so, but also Ghana and Nigeria too. So the effect of the corrosive foreign influnce of US-inspired gangsta rap is reduced. Young men will copy some of the fashion styles, but would never resort to gun violence. Access to fire-arms may have something to do with it too. I have heard worse things about Lagos, however, but I would be surprised if things are as bad there as in South London.
In the UK, we have an indigenous hip-hop culture that is generally more conscious than the gangsta elemennt in the US (so I am reliably informed). If the black community that follows hiphop culture was to shun gangsterism in favour of more conscious, progressive content from indigenous artists, this would help send more positive messages to their young people. Black cultural leaders need to unite to condemn gangsterism, excessive materialism, misogyny and so on and the government could do more to support this.
A discussion of the reasons why some black families do not provide the support young people need to grow up to become peaceful, respectful citizens is a vital one. Certainly I would welcome more resarch into why teenage pregnancy is so high locally - access to housing is one area worth exploring, but the idea that it raises self-esteem is interesting too. However, promoting independence and self-esteem among young women so they don't need to get pregnant to achieve this is therefore vital.
I also think that black churches could do more to address the issues - they are a powerful voice that, from what young people locally are telling me, are not necessarily communicating in a way that is relevant to young people. 'Give your life to Jesus' (and your money too) is about as fart as it goes, it seems. I am sure there are some voices within black churches (Robert Beckford for example), who are talking sense. I was reading his book God and the Gangs recently, and he was very critical about the response of churches to gun crime in Birmingham. I wonder if the churches are even addressing the issue.
Again goverenment could convene a conference at which leading Black cultural commentators could facilitate an honest and reigorous, research based discussion of the problems. The police would have to attend, as often they are woefully ignorant of the social complexities and cultural realities.
So, there is stuff that could be done. But politically I don't see it being a priority at the moment, as all these urban constituencies are solid Labour anyway and it's the floating voters in the marginal consituencies that attract all the attention.
Steve
You've never even been there, have you?
Yossarian, I see you are familiar with the sweet smell of bullshit.
He most certainly has not been to the Gambia, if he did he learnt nothing and is not qualified to speak on the subject.
After this statement
I'm aware that Gambians listen to music from the Senegal like Yousoou N'dour I realised he was talking out of his ass and will not respond to him anymore.
It's like saying
I'm aware that English people listen to music from Europe like The Beatles.
Youssou N'Dour is from the Wolof ethnic group for Heaven's sake and his music is Mbalanx, which is Wolof music not just Senegalese music.
The fact that they are a minority ethnic group in The Gambia and a majority ethnic group in Senegal, is why an average Wolof boy will identify with Youssou N'Dour from Senegal before a Gambian from the Mandinka tribe, and definitely before any Gangsta Rap Artist.
Any sane person who has seen a map of The Gambia and Senegal will actually wonder how they can be two separate countries and would not use those two as an example of how different African countries can be.
Watching him attempt to educate me, after reading the first 2 lines of N'Dour's wikipedia profile was just hilarious :D :D
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/af/Ga-map.png
jchanning
13-08-2007, 20:14
With the spate of murders this year I think we are suffering from a viral epidemic like the ones described by Malcolm Gladwell in Tipping Point (http://www.gladwell.com/tippingpoint/index.html). Is it time for a zero tolerance policy in South London? Have things spiraled out of control because of the badly thought out liberal drugs policies of a few years ago?
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