What Is The Best City In The World?

[phildwyer]

We haven't had this poll in ages. Last time New York was a comfortable winner, I wonder if that will have changed.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Hard to say as I have only been to four and only lived in two.

I would say Tokyo because it's more fun/better than London for the sort of places I like to eat and socialise. Tokyo has also got better shops for music and clothing (again for the sort of music and clothes I want to buy).

I have found most cities that I have visited as boring as hell. Third place would go to New York, but that might just be because I have friends there.

[Swarfega]

I do like London - it was my home for 10 years, and I love Amsterdam.

I haven't been to any of the others, so my actual vote is going to go to Auckland.


:cool:

[gabi]

Sydney should be on that list - and Bangkok

[Swarfega]

Sydney should be on that list - and Bangkok


Sydney's Ok I guess - too full of beautiful people being aggressively beautiful at less beautiful people (i.e. Me) though.

[Belushi]

I've only been to three of the cities on that list, planning to visit New York and Boston later this year.

Recently a friends little girl told us she couldnt decide which was her favourite place she'd been on holiday, San Francisco or Carlisle :D

[Belushi]

Mumbai should also be on the list.

[irishshapes]

more melbourne than sydney for me

[phildwyer]

Sydney should be on that list - and Bangkok

I've never been to Sydney, I hear it's great. I love Bangkok, but Tokyo has got to rule the Asian megacity genre.

[llantwit]

Yeah, seconded that Bangkok should be on the list.
I'd also be tempted to vote Berlin if it was on there.

[littlebabyjesus]

Why no public poll?

I voted Mexico City. Of all the large cities I've been to this was the one with the most vibrant street life.

[J77]

Best city: holiday or living?

There's a hell of a difference between the two.

[Idaho]

Bangkok is a hole. Hong Kong and Hanoi should be on the list. And Berlin.

[jbob]

Yeah phil, Berlin and Bangkok are shocking omissions.

[Flavour]

baghdad

[g force]

San Fran or Stockholm

[Stanley Edwards]

Granada :)

Lived in NY and London and love them both for very different reasons. Amsterdam and Paris are okay, but not great IMO. I only have knowledge of Five of the listed cities. Surprised that Berlin doesn't make the list.

Hoping to get to South America in a couple of years or, so for longterm stays. Argentina and Chile are top of my list. I expect I'll love Santiago.

Obviously NY and London are going to top the poll. How many people here have knowledge of Istanbul? I suspect Berlin would have come a close call behind if it was listed. Next to Barcelona perhaps.

[chilango]

I voted Mexico City as I live there n all.

It is fantastic. (buenos aires and NY were close though)

But why no Vancouver? or Hong Kong?

If it was an open choice however I'd go for Porto.

[phildwyer]

Yeah phil, Berlin and Bangkok are shocking omissions.

I used to love both West Berlin and East Berlin, but I'm not too keen on the united version.

[Roadkill]

I've not been to enough places on that list to judge, and it'd be unfair to comment too definitively on a place I'd only spent a few days in, which accounts for most of those on the list that I have visited. Even so...

London is great to visit - but to live in? Nah.

Istanbul is lovely, but greatest city in the world...?

Amsterdam - full of irritating backpackers looking for a smoke and a shag, and ending up getting mugged. Like I did.

Paris - It's impressive, but...?

[Orang Utan]

I've been to hardly any of them, but despite loving London, I'll go for Barcelona cos it's prettier and the people are prettier and the weather's better and it has a beach and cheaper food and booze

[gabi]

London is great to visit - but to live in? Nah.

I hold exactly the opposite opinion - cool as fuck to live in, earnin the pound, but as a tourist it must suck. Expensive, touristy attractions are kinda shit, people are rude, and the weather sucks.

[beeboo]

I vote Tokyo just because it seems a bit biased to vote for my home city.

Hong Kong would be a contender.

But I do love London - and I think gabi is right, it's a city to live in. The more I travel abroad the more I realise that the cliche about London being one of the most ethnically diverse cities is pretty true, and now I think it'd be quite strange to live in a city without that diversity.

[harticus]

Vientienne - capital of Laos - More like stockport as opposed to a city.
Pnom Phen - cambodia - fucked but fun in a seedy dangerous kinda way.
Saigon - fukkin marveluos place - loadsa fun, busy, dirty and loud as a good city should be.
Bangkok - great place loadsa fun and again really busy loads to see.

My absolute fave out of all the city's i've been to is Dehli, an assault on the senses like no other.

I used to really like going to beaches, but I get bored with them very quickly. In terms of my fave places to travel to, I love a good busy city!!

[Yossarian]

Hong Kong by a long way - out of the ones on the list Ive been to, anyway.

[mtbskalover]

more melbourne than sydney for me

yeah melbourne is so much better!

i like vancouver - many many reasons
also like cardiff, its a small, but cool city, and you can easily get out of town and ride on good trails

amsterdam is cool, but you'd have to have trips to haarlem and the beaches every so often to escape!

[D]

Berlin is a glaring omission.

[Pugwall7]

where is Hong Kong?

[Detroit City]

WTF! Where the hell is Vegas on the list man?

[jbob]

Granada :)

Lived in NY and London and love them both for very different reasons. Amsterdam and Paris are okay, but not great IMO. I only have knowledge of Five of the listed cities. Surprised that Berlin doesn't make the list.

Hoping to get to South America in a couple of years or, so for longterm stays. Argentina and Chile are top of my list. I expect I'll love Santiago.

Obviously NY and London are going to top the poll. How many people here have knowledge of Istanbul? I suspect Berlin would have come a close call behind if it was listed. Next to Barcelona perhaps.

For Spanish cities, I'd join you on the Granada call. I haven't spent nearly enough time there, though, and your posts about it make me sick :mad: in the nicest possible way, y'understand ;)

I've lived in Amsterdam and thought it was great for a small city, but it is somehow lacking (music, food, for example) and the streams of nob head drug tourists it attracts gets tiresome after a while. Due to Phil's intransigence on the Berlin and Bangkok front, that leaves a straight fight between Paris and London. I like both a great deal, but would probably go for London due to its vastly superior music scene and pubs. Paris is still much better for good quality, affordable food, though.

[jbob]

gah, it's not public :mad:

[D]

WTF! Where the hell is Vegas on the list man?

Appropriately, it's with Detroit: in other words, it ain't there!

okay, okay, I've never actually been to Vegas

[zoltan]

Appropriately, it's with Detroit: in other words, it ain't there!

okay, okay, I've never actually been to Vegas

Detriot ? fuck me.:eek:

[Stanley Edwards]

For Spanish cities, I'd join you on the Granada call. I haven't spent nearly enough time there, though, and your posts about it make me sick :mad: in the nicest possible way, y'understand ;)

....

Hot on the heals of the very excellent film festival, I'm currently enjoying all sorts of quality free entertainment courtesy of the music and dance festival :)
They've really got their act together here culturally. When there's no official stuff going on there's always great free parties and music everywhere.

Then there's all the excellent clubs. Planta Baja with a good three or, four different bands playing through the night for example :)

It is definitely my favourite city.

Sorry :D

[perplexis]

A big toss-up between London, Barcelona, Montreal, New York and San Francisco. And maybe Paris (but I'm biased about that).
Berlin??? What about Rome?
They all have different appeals.
I'd like to live in Barcelona, or Montreal. I think they win for me for now.

[D]

[QUOTE=zoltan69]Detriot ? fuck me.:eek:[/QUOT

Right. That's my point.

:rolleyes: :D

[gabi]

Did NY seriously win this last time?

I travel there a lot for work, however live here in london - i can categorically confirm that (in my humble opinion of course ;) ) that london is vastly superior in every way..

I despise the faux-niceness over there... i like a good, proper cunt, so to speak.. i dont want to chat to strangers thanks. unless its online of course.

Hmm.. im tryin to work out whats better about NY as i type. Nada.

[perplexis]

Better about NY:
All night subway
Better clothes
Better shops
Better bars
Friendlier people
Affordable taxis
Amazing variety of affordable and tasty food
Less threatening
...

[Marius]

Cardiff is the best city in the world.

Favourite city I've visited is Toronto. I haven't been to Montreal.

I like Amsterdam but its too damn expensive these days.

I can't comment on the rest as I haven't been to them (well aside from London, which is alright but its no Cardiff).

I've decided to save and visit Tokyo so I'll let you know about that one in a year or two.

[littlebabyjesus]

London, which is alright but its no Cardiff).


:D

This may be the first time these words have ever been strung together in this order.

[gnoriac]

Bangkok or Copenhagen for me.

[Marius]

Amsterdam - full of irritating backpackers looking for a smoke and a shag, and ending up getting mugged. Like I did.

The Dam is massive and you can easily avoid all that by staying out of the Red light district and going places like Barny's (http://www.coffeeshop.freeuk.com/Database/ShopsA/Barney.html)which is out of the centre.

[jbob]

Amsterdam is geographically and by populace by far the smallest city on the list. It's a tiny international city, which is part of its charm.

Barney's is full of tourists and is still in the city centre. The RLD is a minute part of a small city and is wholly unrepresentative of Amsterdam.

[twisted]

Did NY seriously win this last time?

I travel there a lot for work, however live here in london - i can categorically confirm that (in my humble opinion of course ;) ) that london is vastly superior in every way..

I despise the faux-niceness over there... i like a good, proper cunt, so to speak.. i dont want to chat to strangers thanks. unless its online of course.

Hmm.. im tryin to work out whats better about NY as i type. Nada.

I always swerved New York at any given opportunity when I worked a lot in the US. I think it's Manhatten that I hate; could actually imagine living in Brooklyn and never crossing the river.
Prefer Chicago as it ain't up it's own hole so much. Smaller US cities I liked are: Portland, Austin and Pittsburgh.

[chilango]

Smaller US cities and towns..now we're talking.

Flagstaff!

Moab!

Anchorage!

Fairbanks!

...but the VERY best towns I've been to in the US:

*drumroll*

Escalante, Utah

and

Talkeetna, Alaska

[Marius]

Amsterdam is geographically and by populace by far the smallest city on the list. It's a tiny international city, which is part of its charm.

Barney's is full of tourists and is still in the city centre. The RLD is a minute part of a small city and is wholly unrepresentative of Amsterdam.

Damn when did that happen. No one knew the place when i went to Barneys (mind you that was 10 years ago). I thought it was quite out of the way. In fact I couldn't find it last time I went looking. Its wasn't in the RLD when I went, much much further away I thought, unless they moved?

[jbob]

I meant it's in the city centre, but not in the RLD. Nowhere's very far in A'dam :)

[Marius]

I meant it's in the city centre, but not in the RLD. Nowhere's very far in A'dam :)

It is if you walk everywhere because you couldn't be bothered working out the Trams. Its that hub of a wheel layout to the city which makes getting around on foot a bit of a hike.

[Iemanja]

Only someone who's been to all of those cities, and all the cities in the world, could decide...

So, bin/ban, pointless poll :p

and where is Rio???

[RenegadeDog]

Yeah and why is Paris even on the list? It's a parochial backwater which thinks of itself as the height of fashion. An unfriendly, claustrophobic, parkless, mazelike, stony, unenchanting, desert of stone. :mad:

[Iemanja]

Yeah, I have to say, I didn't think much of Paris either... (Although I do like the rest of France a lot)

[RenegadeDog]

Me too - South of France is bloody gorgeous. Just Paris. Why oh why did I have to spend a year there? If I could have spent a year in provence or something I'd have been on cloud 9. And probably be less anti-france now than I am. :mad:

[pseudonarcissus]

and where is Rio???

Rio is about 150 miles south of Maçae, where I am right now....I'll be catching a bus back there in the morning...Rio is without doubt the most beautiful city in the world and should be on the poll.

[phildwyer]

Rio is about 150 miles south of Maçae, where I am right now....I'll be catching a bus back there in the morning...Rio is without doubt the most beautiful city in the world and should be on the poll.

Yes, but its just the beaches and the mountains that make it beautiful. The buildings aren't very impressive, and there's a *lot* of highly visible poverty and crime. So it was a toss-up between Rio and BA for the South American representative, but BA just seems to have more of an urban appeal. Its cheaper at the moment too.

[phildwyer]

Did NY seriously win this last time?

Yes, but London wasn't on the list. I shouldn't have put it on this time really, because lots of people just vote for it cos they live there. It's a great city, but NY blows it away in my opinion.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Better about NY:
All night subway
Better clothes
Better shops
Better bars
Friendlier people
Affordable taxis
Amazing variety of affordable and tasty food
Less threatening
...

Really?

I don't think the shops are better
I don't like the bars all that much (english pub please)
Are the taxis cheaper? not in my opinion.
Food in America is mostly shit.
I don't find London any more threatening, plus the wierdos are less likely to have a gun.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

It's a great city, but NY blows it away in my opinion.

New York and Dwyer sittin' in a tree.




New York is lameo.

Sorry that's a bit of a troll really. New York is ok, but it's not all that.

[g force]

NYC is much like London, if you know people who live there, they can show you the real side to the city, the nice cafes off the beaten track, the family owned restaurants, the small art galleries.

NYC also has the best veggies restaurants i've been to.

But it's certainly not as great as most people make out. San Fran, Chicago and Boston are much nicer.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

NYC is much like London, if you know people who live there, they can show you the real side to the city, the nice cafes off the beaten track, the family owned restaurants, the small art galleries.

.

I do know quite a few people in NY but I still don't think it's all that.

[phildwyer]

New York is lameo.

It was a million times better before Giuliani, true. In those days it was incredibly exciting just to walk around the block. Now it's much less unique, more like any other big, Western city. But I still love it best, probably because I spent my 20's there.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

The first time I went to NY it was interesting but by the end of the week I was a bit bored. Now I just hang out with friends, I can't think of anywhere I really love going or doing when I'm there (I'm open to suggestions).

When I first went to Tokyo I thought it was crazy and amazing. After a couple of other trips it became rather boring. Now I have got used to it and know what I like and where I like to go. I Now enjoy Tokyo for what it really is and the friends I have there, it's a city geared much more to being social than London is.

Plus it has a great rock and roll scene, fab record shops and all the clothes fit me.

[phildwyer]

Tokyo's amazing, but as a gaigin you can't really get into the culture.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Tokyo's amazing, but as a gaigin you can't really get into the culture.

I think that's bollocks, or at least it is these days. Have you not seen Tom Cruse in the last samurai?

I have no intention of getting into temples and wearing kimonos and shit, but I do the same things and go to (and avoid) exactly the same places as my Japanese friends.
When you get past the language in Tokyo (I'm not talking all of Japan, there is a big difference between NY and Texas) there are more differences between other English speaking cultures and Britain.
I don't think there is any mysterious culture to get into, maybe you can enlighten me, I may have misunderstood?

[Boris Sprinkler]

Copenhagen.

[phildwyer]

When you get past the language in Tokyo (I'm not talking all of Japan, there is a big difference between NY and Texas) there are more differences between other English speaking cultures and Britain.

Hang on, you're saying that apart from the language Japan is more like the UK than the US? That's madness. Or have I misunderstood?

[Meltingpot]

NYC is much like London, if you know people who live there, they can show you the real side to the city, the nice cafes off the beaten track, the family owned restaurants, the small art galleries.

NYC also has the best veggies restaurants i've been to.

But it's certainly not as great as most people make out. San Fran, Chicago and Boston are much nicer.

Yeah Boston is nice, I stopped off there once while changing planes.

[zoltan]

I do like copenhagen

I do like Oslo ( yes , I know :D )

I love Berlin

Salzburg is fantastic ( outside tourist seaosn)

I have a hard on for Cold places as you might guess

[Johnny Canuck2]

Yeah and why is Paris even on the list? It's a parochial backwater which thinks of itself as the height of fashion. An unfriendly, claustrophobic, parkless, mazelike, stony, unenchanting, desert of stone. :mad:

You crazy, dude.

[NVP]

I'm a big fan of Amsterdam, too. Last time I was there - a month ago - I put quite a bit of thought into moving there permanently.

I liked Saigon/Ho Chin Minh City a lot when I was there but that was a few years back, now.

Bangkok's pretty polluted etc but it's got that exotic Eastern thing I like. Same goes for Kathmandu. Filthy but so different to what you're used to that you warm to it.

I don't spend a lot of time in cities, really. They tend to be places I stay in on the way somewhere quieter.

[Boris Sprinkler]

Reykjavik

[phildwyer]

I'm a big fan of Amsterdam, too. Last time I was there - a month ago - I put quite a bit of thought into moving there permanently.

I lived there one summer, squatting in Dapperbuurt. I can't imagine ever getting bored there. But I'm a bit surprised to see it in second place--it's not all that spectacular, surely?

[RenegadeDog]

You crazy, dude.

Nope. I lived there. I had more fun in Wuhan, which objectively speaking is a dirty great dive, but which is 10 times more friendly etc.

[Johnny Canuck2]

Nope. I lived there. I had more fun in Wuhan, which objectively speaking is a dirty great dive, but which is 10 times more friendly etc.

I haven't lived there, but have spent time there, one time for a month. I'd move there in an instant. Courses, horses.

[RenegadeDog]

I think Paris is a place to visit, rather than reside in. If you just go as a tourist and look at all the touristy buildings, it's pretty beautiful. But beneath the surface it's all seedy cramped apartments, people shouting, and parks where you can't sit on the grass, grotty local brasseries (give me a good local pub any day) and highly expensive nightclubs/bars.

[Steve316]

I voted New York. Out of the choices I have only been to London, New York, Amsterdam, and Barcelona.

I probably enjoyed Amsterdam least to be honest although it was ok. However, I truly did feel like I was somewhere a little bit special when in NYC.

Other notable cities I like would be - Singapore, Melbourne, Brisbane, Sydney, Madrid.

[ramjamclub]

Best city in the world for what?

[Jessiedog]

where is Hong Kong?
Take a look at my location.

:)

Woof

[Jessiedog]

Yes, but its just the beaches and the mountains that make it beautiful. The buildings aren't very impressive, and there's a *lot* of highly visible poverty and crime. So it was a toss-up between Rio and BA for the South American representative, but BA just seems to have more of an urban appeal. Its cheaper at the moment too.
Let's see.

Tropical weather. Tick.

Mountains, beaches and sea (replete with dolphins). Tick.

Rainforest, monkeys, porcupine, wild boar and more. Tick

More impressive buildings than you could shake a stick at. Tick.

One of the lowest crime rates in the world, virtually no street crime. Tick.

Friendly, cosmopolitan, fantastic nightlife - open 24/7. Tick.

Low corruption, efficient civil service, easy to "get things done". Tick.

Cheap, efficient, reliable, extensive public transport network. Tick.

Taxis flagfall at a quid or less. BIG Tick.

International transport hub, superb airport. Tick.

Close to zero homelessness and zero "streetsleepers" (unless they so desire). Tick.

Exciting political environment. Roaring economy. Perfectly geographically poised. Tick. Tick Tick.

"Can do" attitudes, hardworking, pragmatic, tolerant. Tick.

Currency pegged to the US$ (makes everything cheap for now). Tick.




Jeez, now let me see.


It could only be The Pearl of the Orient.

A pimple on da bottom of China, in the heart of Asia.

What a city!

:)

Woof

[Errol's son]

Granada :)

Hoping to get to South America in a couple of years or, so for longterm stays. Argentina and Chile are top of my list. I expect I'll love Santiago.



I actually didn't like Santiago much although there are worse places most certainly. Chile is great though once you get out of Santiago. It may have been partly to do with the fact that it was winter when I was in Santiago and freezing cold. I really didn't like the food in Chile much. Eating in cheap places was never enjoyable where as in most other South American countries cheap roadside eateries are fine. The coffee in Chile was appalling too although that may have changed.

But then I don't generally like large South American cities. Rio and Salvador in Brazil are fun as is Buenos Aires in Argentina. I prefer Lima to Santiago which many find surprising.

[lang rabbie]

Let's see.

Tropical weather. Tick.


Hmmm. :rolleyes: On how many days last year could you actually see across the Bay from Kowloon to HK island or vice versa?

From today's South China Morning Post: Guangdong air worsens despite cleanup efforts (http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2c913216495213d5df646910cba0a0a0/?vgnextoid=8e921c7505953110VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&vgnextfmt=teaser&s=News) :(

I suppose the nineteenth century levels of "peasouper" smog coming out of the booming industries of the Pear River Delta over in Guangdong might appeal to an anarcho-capitalist.

[NVP]

I know it's not a 'city' in the same way that London or NYC is - it barely qualifies as a town compared to them - but this is my favourite city in the world, nonetheless:

http://www.pbase.com/jamieashley/image/59232400/medium.jpg

Leh, Ladakh.

Friendliest people I've ever met, incredible Himalayan scenery, some of the world's best trekking, fascinating Tibetan Buddhist culture. A side trip to Nubra over the world's highest road nearby.

And one of the world's best road trips (http://www.pbase.com/jamieashley/manali_leh) to get there.

And then you go to Kashmir afterwards. Awesome place. Unbeatable for me. :)

[ianw]

I think if more people had been to BA, it'd have more votes. Which is self-evident, but...you know what I mean. I thought it would be nice before I went, but it's an amazing city. I'd go back in a second.

Another vote for Mumbai from me too. Plus Melbourne.

[NVP]

Can't stand Bombay/Mumbai myself.

Way too hassley.

[phildwyer]

I think if more people had been to BA, it'd have more votes. Which is self-evident, but...you know what I mean.

Yes, I do. I had no idea it was so... European I suppose. And really cheap at the moment too--you can get a steak dinner with a bottle of wine for a fiver.

[maximilian ping]

I've been to hardly any of them, but despite loving London, I'll go for Barcelona cos it's prettier and the people are prettier and the weather's better and it has a beach and cheaper food and booze

wot he said

also, anyone been to Munich? it got best city in Monocle mag survey

[NVP]

But I'm a bit surprised to see it in second place--it's not all that spectacular, surely?

I'm more surprised to see London in first.

It'd be right at the bottom of my list.

[phildwyer]

I'm more surprised to see London in first.

It'd be right at the bottom of my list.

London's fine, but it wouldn't make my top ten. I reckon people are voting for it cos they live there.

[Sweaty Betty]

Aint been to any on the poll list....so Kardiff it is!!!!!!:D

[phildwyer]

Aint been to any on the poll list....so Kardiff it is!!!!!!:D

What, you've never been to London?

[CyberRose]

Having only been to London, Amsterdam, Barcelona and Paris it'd have to be a flip between Paris and Barcelona (as I hated Amsterdam and have only been to London properly once when I was about 8 to visit, other than watching football matches and that doesn't really count)

Think I'll have to go for Barcelona seeing as Sheffield isn't an option

[softybabe]

Aint been to any on the poll list....so Kardiff it is!!!!!!:D


Been to 4 in the poll and about to visit a fifth but even though 'diff is not on the poll. I still go with Cardiff, fuck the rest :D

[Errol's son]

Where is Lagos, Port Moresby, Bangui, Bogota, Brazzaville and Abidjan?

[Sweaty Betty]

What, you've never been to London?


Oh yeah:o I was born there:o :D

i still prefer Cardiff;)

[Sweaty Betty]

Been to 4 in the poll and about to visit a fifth but even though 'diff is not on the poll. I still go with Cardiff, fuck the rest :D

good girl!! see you here next week;) :D

[NVP]

I've always had a good time whenever I've been to Cardiff.

Nice place, decent people.

Anywhere with a place called 'Splott' is alright by me.

[Stanley Edwards]

...

also, anyone been to Munich? it got best city in Monocle mag survey



It's a bit to subdued for my liking. Naked people sunbathing on the river banks is cool and the Summer nightlife is good, but I'd hardly rate it as a great city.

It does have a lot going for it mind. What it lacks is bigness and danger.

[Meltingpot]

I know it's not a 'city' in the same way that London or NYC is - it barely qualifies as a town compared to them - but this is my favourite city in the world, nonetheless:

http://www.pbase.com/jamieashley/image/59232400/medium.jpg

Leh, Ladakh.

Friendliest people I've ever met, incredible Himalayan scenery, some of the world's best trekking, fascinating Tibetan Buddhist culture. A side trip to Nubra over the world's highest road nearby.

And one of the world's best road trips (http://www.pbase.com/jamieashley/manali_leh) to get there.

And then you go to Kashmir afterwards. Awesome place. Unbeatable for me. :)

Wow (cue Led Zeppelin for Kashmir).

[D]

NYC is much like London, if you know people who live there, they can show you the real side to the city, the nice cafes off the beaten track, the family owned restaurants, the small art galleries.

NYC also has the best veggies restaurants i've been to.

But it's certainly not as great as most people make out. San Fran, Chicago and Boston are much nicer.

I don't know Chicago very well (but I do know that winters there are pretty awful), but Boston ... nicer than NY? In what universe? I suppose it's "nicer" in the sense of being prettier and smaller and quieter; but it's small/pretty/quiet/and generally unexciting.

SF, on the other hand: fantastic. Left my heart, etc, blah blah

[D]

Smaller US cities and towns..now we're talking.

Flagstaff!

Moab!

Anchorage!

Fairbanks!

...but the VERY best towns I've been to in the US:

*drumroll*

Escalante, Utah

and

Talkeetna, Alaska

Anchorage is cool, but Juneau is cooler - fucking gorgeous, gorgeous city.

I hear that Austin is pretty rockin' too. And, of course, dare I repeat myself: San Francisco. yayayayay.

[Johnny Canuck2]

Smaller US cities and towns..now we're talking.

Flagstaff!

Moab!

Anchorage!

Fairbanks!

...but the VERY best towns I've been to in the US:

*drumroll*

Escalante, Utah

and

Talkeetna, Alaska

You forgot Sedona...

Small towns I've liked in the US: San Anselmo, Larkspur, Paradise, California. Gallup New Mexico is pretty good, too. Never been to Santa Fe.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Hang on, you're saying that apart from the language Japan is more like the UK than the US? That's madness. Or have I misunderstood?

No you have not misunderstood. Maybe it's not across the board but there are many things/situations that I find far more comfortable in Tokyo as opposed to the US.
Off the top of my head - courtesy, not tipping for everything, drinking, socialising, dating, stiff upper lip and whatnot.

I'm quite willing to concede though due to the fact that I have spent much much more time in Japan than the US so am personally more likely to be more at ease with what I know.

So now tall me why someone who is not from Japanese can never truly know Japanese culture? Will my daughter never quite grasp it? Or will it be ok because she is only half Gaijin.

[gorski]

Hmmm... Depends on who's talking, from what sort of position, career wise, money wise, interest wise and so on... A rich person's experience of Rio will never be the same as mine, having been there as a pauper... ;) Or any other experience of a city, for that matter...:cool:

Sorry, Phil, not been to Argentina yet but Rio is fascinating, if you avoid the crime ridden favellas and the immediate surrounding, which at times is difficult, as it's quite sudden... the change... on occasion... and potentially dangerous!

And then, what's the problem with smaller cities? For instance, Parma [in Italy:D] has the highest marks for quality of life, culturally and otherwise...

So, my point: perhaps we need to specify, as some have pointed out - from living or visiting, to money issues, jobwise, interests, age group and whatnot... Then we would get a bit better - maybe a few - poll[s], non?

[NVP]

Wow (cue Led Zeppelin for Kashmir).


Yep. I could happily live there if it wasn't for the Winters. It's 3500m (11400 feet) above sea-level so it hits minus 30 some days in Dec / Jan. :eek: It's probably the most Un-Indian place I've been to in India, if that makes sense.

[zoltan]

It's a bit to subdued for my liking. Naked people sunbathing on the river banks is cool and the Summer nightlife is good, but I'd hardly rate it as a great city.

It does have a lot going for it mind. What it lacks is bigness and danger.


Port Au Price or Grozny maye be more to your liking ?:D

[phildwyer]

Port Au Price or Grozny maye be more to your liking ?:D

Port-au-Prince is a great place, sort of.

[phildwyer]

So now tall me why someone who is not from Japanese can never truly know Japanese culture? Will my daughter never quite grasp it? Or will it be ok because she is only half Gaijin.

I'd imagine that she'd face some discrimination. Quite a few Japanese still disapprove of marrying gaijin.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I don't know which Japan you visit but it's not the same one I do.
In the UK some people don't like black people because of the colour of their skin you know. Some people are idiots. You are tarring quite a lot of people with the same brush with that statement. I think that close minded attitude could make you just as bad.

You are coming across as a pompus know it all. Tell me the story where you tried to get in with all the Japanese people but they wouldn't tell you how to do up your kimono or the etiquette of the bath house. Boo hoo.

Personally I have never been anything else than welcomed everywhere that I have been. In some of the more local places people have been eager to show any customs etc without me asking.

'quite a lot'? does that mean most? or one in a six hundred that countrywide adds up to 'quite a lot'.

Again I ask where you get this idea that there is a mystery closed culture that foreigners are not allowed access to and could never understand? The amazing and intrepid traveller Dwyer discovers the mysterious cities of the world and the bizarre cultures that lie within.

[phildwyer]

'quite a lot'? does that mean most? or one in a six hundred that countrywide adds up to 'quite a lot'.

My estimate would be 20%.

[phildwyer]

I don't know which Japan you visit but it's not the same one I do.

I think everyone who has visited Japan would agree that the culture resists easy access and ready comprehension by gaijin. The customs and traditions there are utterly different to those of Europe, they are extremely subtle and complex, and anyone who thinks he understands them after a cursory encounter is sadly mistaken.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Your estimate? Based on what?

[phildwyer]

Tell me the story where you tried to get in with all the Japanese people but they wouldn't tell you how to do up your kimono or the etiquette of the bath house. Boo hoo.

I'm sorry but you've lost me now. I have never worn a kimono nor visited a "bath house." I might add that your aggressive tone is unbecoming on this companionable thread. Tone it down.

[phildwyer]

Your estimate? Based on what?

My observation, reading, and knowledge of human nature.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I think everyone who has visited Japan would agree that the culture resists easy access and ready comprehension by gaijin. The customs and traditions there are utterly different to those of Europe, they are extremely subtle and complex, and anyone who thinks he understands them after a cursory encounter is sadly mistaken.

You see I think this is utter shit and I ask again where you are getting this from?
What customs and traditions are you talking about? How do you know all this id a gaijin will never know?

I have visited Japan many many times and have lived there, I have a Japanese wife, and many Japanese friends that I socialise with when I'm over. I have never stayed in a hotel and have never been to anywhere that specifically caters for foreigners. Now I am not saying I am an expert but what makes you more of an expert?

C'mon, I've been asking for ages now, just give me one little example of where you knowledge comes from?

[phildwyer]

You see I think this is utter shit and I ask again where you are getting this from?

I have visited Japan, read extensively in Japanese history, and encountered a good deal of contemporary Japanese literature in translation. I was not aware that the exclusive, recalcitrant nature of Japanese culture was a matter of dispute. It is quite simply a fact that many Japanese would still prefer that their children not marry gaijin. It is quite simply a fact that Japanese society resists easy assimilation by foriegners. I would appreciate it if you would refrain from using obscenities in any response you may offer.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I have visited Japan, read extensively in Japanese history, and encountered a good deal of contemporary Japanese literature in translation. I was not aware that the exclusive, recalcitrant nature of Japanese culture was a matter of dispute. It is quite simply a fact that many Japanese would still prefer that their children not marry gaijin. It is quite simply a fact that Japanese society resists easy assimilation by foriegners. I would appreciate it if you would refrain from using obscenities in any response you may offer.

Some/many 20% humm. Anyway that's different from what you said before. You said as my daughter was half Japanese 'you'd imagine that she'd face some discrimination', Because 'Quite a few Japanese still disapprove of marrying gaijin'.

According to what you say I should have had a pretty hard time, (maybe 20%of the time).

I'm sure there are loads of old schoolers who would rather their daughters marry someone local, you can't tar everyone with the same brush just because you read it in a book. That's dangerous.

You have not answered my main gripe which was that you said a foreigner could never truly understand Japanese culture. Why is that, and if so, as a foreigner how do you possibly know this?

[phildwyer]

I'm sure there are loads of old schoolers who would rather their daughters marry someone local, you can't tar everyone with the same brush just because you read it in a book. That's dangerous.

But I *didn't* "tar everyone with the same brush." I said about 20%, and to be honest it sounds as though you pretty much agree with me.

You have not answered my main gripe which was that you said a foreigner could never truly understand Japanese culture. Why is that, and if so, as a foreigner how do you possibly know this?

I don't see the problem. You don't have to understand something to know that you don't understand it. On the contrary, if you understood it you'd know that you didn't not understand it. It's like saying "you say you don't understand Hungarian, but if you don't understand it, how could you possibly know that you don't understand it." Doesn't make sense. I understand Japanese culture quite well enough to understand that I don't understand it. And furthermore, the more I understand, the more I understand I don't understand. That much is obvious.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

But I *didn't* "tar everyone with the same brush." I said about 20%, and to be honest it sounds as though you pretty much agree with me.

No I don't, that's just your ego.


And yes I think you are making quite sweeping statements.



I don't see the problem. You don't have to understand something to know that you don't understand it. On the contrary, if you understood it you'd know that you didn't not understand it. It's like saying "you say you don't understand Hungarian, but if you don't understand it, how could you possibly know that you don't understand it." Doesn't make sense. I understand Japanese culture quite well enough to understand that I don't understand it. And furthermore, the more I understand, the more I understand I don't understand. That much is obvious.

OK then what part of the culture today in Japan don't you understand? You make out there is some big mystery of the orient that you can only truly understand if you are of direct Japanese lineage (oohhh). If it's a real toughie I'll ask the wife or someone then you can be enlightened.

I'm sick of all the rubbish that gets flapped about Japan. Salary men mostly sleep in capsules during the week, you can buy anything from vending machines in the street, it's super double expensive to eat/rent , there is no word for 'no', etc etc.

I have read loads of nonsence and watched many a badly informed holiday/culture show.

[ChrisFilter]

I voted London, but might have gone for Melbourne if it had been there.

[phildwyer]

OK then what part of the culture today in Japan don't you understand?

The bowing for a start. Who are you supposed to bow to, under what circumstances, and how deep?

[gorski]

A drummer I played with, a liberal Japanese, open minded guy with some intellect, once answered my "What's the state of debate in Japan on..." with "Debate? In Japan? What debate?!?":D

I'd say I would normally listen to the educated, critically minded, free spirits more than anyone else... Mercieless critique of everything is much more closer to who I am, too...;) :cool:

Where ever one is!!! :)

[jbob]

OK then what part of the culture today in Japan don't you understand? You make out there is some big mystery of the orient that you can only truly understand if you are of direct Japanese lineage (oohhh). If it's a real toughie I'll ask the wife or someone then you can be enlightened.

I'm sick of all the rubbish that gets flapped about Japan. Salary men mostly sleep in capsules during the week, you can buy anything from vending machines in the street, it's super double expensive to eat/rent , there is no word for 'no', etc etc.

I have read loads of nonsence and watched many a badly informed holiday/culture show.

It seems curious that you're arguing against the whole weight of cultural discourse that emanates from Japan; as oppose to what you seem to suggest is a rather outdated 'orientalist' perspective coming from the West (which I don't think is what phil is suggesting at all). Much of contemporary Japanese fiction/cinema embodies many of the elements you are suggesting do not exist. Which is a bit strange, frankly. Rather like saying that British fiction/films are unrepresentative of British culture :confused:

Not having a pop, just interested and a little confused.

[zoltan]

I am in the employ of Japanese at the minute- directly working with them/ reporting also to Tokyo - its "interesting" or " challenging" as they say these days

[Marius]

I am in the employ of Japanese at the minute- directly working with them/ reporting also to Tokyo - its "interesting" or " challenging" as they say these days

I've notice in my work place now that the lower you are in the food chain the more you talk about problems and issues. Once you reach a certain grade problems and issues just melt away and all you are left with are challenges and opportunities. I need to get promoted quick as I'm fed up with all my problems and would prefer some opportunities. :D

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

It seems curious that you're arguing against the whole weight of cultural discourse that emanates from Japan; as oppose to what you seem to suggest is a rather outdated 'orientalist' perspective coming from the West (which I don't think is what phil is suggesting at all). Much of contemporary Japanese fiction/cinema embodies many of the elements you are suggesting do not exist. Which is a bit strange, frankly. Rather like saying that British fiction/films are unrepresentative of British culture :confused:

Not having a pop, just interested and a little confused.

All I am saying is that there is not any cultural mystery that it is impossible for foreigners to ever fathom (which is what Dwyer is suggesting). Dwyer also goes on a lot about the idea that foreigners are not really let in to the cultural circle and that 20% of Japanese are in fact are racist. I don't think there is a closed culture at all, you only have to watch TV or films for a quick example of that. What ratio of foreign films to we screen in this county? How many foreign TV shows are screened in this country? Do we get the option of subtitles or dubbed? In record shops to we have a foreign section that is as equally big as the home grown stuff?

Work though is a different matter and I am aware of that.

I don't know what films you are talking about so I can't comment, I'm going on my own experience.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

The bowing for a start. Who are you supposed to bow to, under what circumstances, and how deep?

OK well for a start when to bow quickly just comes quite naturally.
When do you shake someone's hand, kiss their hand, or give them a kiss on the cheek/both cheeks, or give someone a hug or just a smile and a nod? You just figure these things out.

I don't bow to my wife or family in general but if my father in law gave me a small parting gift I might do a couple of quick little bows and some thank yous. When you meet new people you might do a little bow with your dozo yoroshikus but that's all quite informal. In business greeting there is a clear formal structure that you can look up anywhere. In general you bow lower than your superior as a mark of respect. Watch a bit of TV (plenty of salary man shows and soaps) and you will pick it up rather naturally in no time. No great mystery.

[gorski]

But there is, Atomix!

Habermas once came to Zagreb and gave a lecture on one of his latest turns... At the very end of it one of our Emeritus Professors, who was sitting way at the back with us, students, stood up, started walking towards him [they know each other a long, long time, since the days of Praxis and Korcula Summer School, where almost everyone who was anyone in Philosophy came regularly for... a few years, actually...] and asked, putting his hand on his shoulder, with a cheeky smile:

"Dear Professor Habermas [and they are of the same age and on ‘per tu’, really],

You just stepped off a plane coming from Japan. How does that visit and those experiences fare with your general theory, drawing heavily from the universalisable values/principles, in the Kantian sense? How do the two square up, please?"

Habermas replied in these terms, kinda scratching behind the ear and looking at his shoes:

Such a question stabs it right through the heart! The Japanese have Modern Kantian laws [imposed by the Americans after the WW II], just like we - in the EU and the US – do, but the whole thing is lit up, as it were, "from above" by customary, feudal behaviour. It remains to be seen which way Japan goes...

[or words to that effect...]

Look, the EU and especially the US had a big issue with the Japanese Gov and business community for precisely such attitudes Phil mentions. They would open their borders to foreign goods but would stock them at the back of a store, away from the customers [and all manner of other, similar practices/tactics] and one had to know what one is after and really look/ask for it, otherwise...

A country in which one starts a day with a company anthem, where the company decides through its policies who can [not] marry whom, where a Gov minister commits sepuku for he "failed in his duties", as a minister for railway, since the trains were late about 4 minutes for the past year or so [am I exaggerating, do you think?], where the "traditional" [read customary] family structure still sees women as subservient and more and more of them want to be buried separately from their husbands, as a final insult and getting back at him [as if it matters a lot then], but wouldn't dream of equality and whatever is necessary to achieve it and so on and on, not to mention the [way too] hard working nonsense – well, to me, that must be a bad place to live and grow as a person!!

What kind of a person? Let me paint a picture: the Japanese, as a whole, or if you wish "traditionally [more uncritical customary behaviour]" see themselves still as a mere limb of a greater body and as such [no real notion/understanding/feeling of an individual as a Subject in the Modern sense of the word] have great difficulties with coming up with any kind of truly/deeply creative stuff. Their authorities, trying to think strategically, have noticed they more or less successfully copy and improve the details/efficiency but do not really come up with much innovative, really novel stuff, breakthroughs of any serious, critical mass... So, they have tried to break this "traditional" mould and introduce, as opposed to the usual team stuff, individualism and lateral thinking etc. etc. - to schools. And it's at a great push! Not easy to get a Japanese person [on the whole, typically - not every single one] to step out and say "I don't think so, this is wrong, here is a better solution", especially since breaking a rank and so on is unthinkable! Try being a whistleblower in Japan...

I could go on but I shan't.

The racists would come up with “Democracy is not for the [Far] Orientals”. I don't think so. See the South Korean effort, from the Unions and Media, trying to break the powerful monopolies and concerns [in their viceful and rather strong bond with the politicians], onwards, for example... Or our Feudal past, only a few hundred years ago, in the advanced societies, or even less in the ones that were late coming into Modernity....

Our conscious, organised, free and emancipating effort worked here and it can work there, in the Far East, too. How do we know? Do we have precedents? Yes! It [such emancipating struggle] is well known there, too. And even if it had never been tried before – who of us has seen the future to claim that it will never happen? It might take a while to break down the Feudal structures, processes, customs and so forth but it is possible. They are just as much Humans as we are. Culture is our product and can therefore be changed! These days we connect the "national specificities" debate to culture, not to genes, not to "Blut und Boden", hence the Historical perspective is necessary, to show that Racism has nothing to do with the critique of the current practices/policies/customary behaviour in Japan or anywhere else, for that matter.

This is a legitimate topic for debate, for as long as we talk about the issues and do not start with label throwing etc.

One more thing: the UK is not the best place to start comparing the Japanese with. For many reasons – when it comes to Culture. Imagine only 3% of the books published in the UK [a year!] being actually translated from other “languages/cultures” etc. But that’s another topics...

[fractionMan]

I just voted SF. It's wicked.

[phildwyer]

OK well for a start when to bow quickly just comes quite naturally.

Very interesting, although I stil think it would take a while to figure it out. But what of more important matters? For example, Japan is generally said to be a "shame culture," as opposed to the "guilt culture" of the West. Hence the importance in Japan of "face," and their unwillingness to put anyone in a position where they might lose "face."

Among other things, this seems to mean that it is perfectly acceptable to fall down drunk in the street, but terribly shocking to lose one's temper with a shop assistant.

Now, you may say what you will, but I contend that such differences are immense, and that they do indeed make Japanese culture difficult--in fact, well-nigh impossible--for gaijin ever to fully understand or participate in. Would you not agree?

[Yossarian]

What´s so difficult to grasp about the concept? Losing your temper with a shop assistant makes you look like a twat, after all...

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Very interesting, although I stil think it would take a while to figure it out. But what of more important matters? For example, Japan is generally said to be a "shame culture," as opposed to the "guilt culture" of the West. Hence the importance in Japan of "face," and their unwillingness to put anyone in a position where they might lose "face."

Among other things, this seems to mean that it is perfectly acceptable to fall down drunk in the street, but terribly shocking to lose one's temper with a shop assistant.

Now, you may say what you will, but I contend that such differences are immense, and that they do indeed make Japanese culture difficult--in fact, well-nigh impossible--for gaijin ever to fully understand or participate in. Would you not agree?

I would not agree. You said a foreigner could never fully understand Japanese culture. I just can't see why not. There is never been anything that I have found that has been so mind bending that I just can't understand the whys or the wherefores.

I can't understand French, doesn't mean I am incapable of learning. All the stuff you have talked about are just social things you pick up. Maybe you are just not good at picking up social niceties, I kind of get the impression from you posts that you might not get on well in social situations.

Sounds to me like you have seen 'the last samurai' and 'read Norwegian wood', I've heard about shame culture etc but have never come across anything like it. Like Yossarian said it's all fairly logical. I often feel that once you see past the language there isn't anything that crazy about Japan.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

But there is, Atomix!

Habermas once came to Zagreb and gave a lecture on one of his latest turns... At the very end of it one of our Emeritus Professors, who was sitting way at the back with us, students, stood up, started walking towards him [they know each other a long, long time, since the days of Praxis and Korcula Summer School, where almost everyone who was anyone in Philosophy came regularly for... a few years, actually...] and asked, putting his hand on his shoulder, with a cheeky smile:

"Dear Professor Habermas [and they are of the same age and on ‘per tu’, really],

etc etc etc blah blah

translated from other “languages/cultures” etc. But that’s another topics...
Er?

Well all I was saying is that it was not unfathomable. I was also saying that I had never come across any racism and that socially TO ME Japan was far closer to my experiences in the UK than the US. I still don't think there are unlockable secrets of the orient that only a Japanese person will ever truly know.

P.S. My wife laughed at this. You should hear the 'facts' I hear about the UK when I am in Japan.

[gorski]

Congrats: you have completely missed/evaded every important point I [actually Habermas and so on...] made...:rolleyes: :D :p :D

[gorski]

It's seriously oppressive, hierarchical, rigid, feudal at its core [when it comes to social mores/customs/"traditions" etc.], patriarchal, exploitative etc. etc.

See the kids trying to get into certain schools/Unis and the stress that creates/puts them under and all the series of problems it creates...

Would you be a woman in a "strictly traditional" [feudal customs observing] Japanese family? For instance...

[jbob]

What´s so difficult to grasp about the concept? Losing your temper with a shop assistant makes you look like a twat, after all...
Yes, but if you've ever worked in a shop in the UK, you'll know this happens all the time with no shame/public humiliation involved. People lose their temper all the time in the UK and it's considered a cultural norm.

I think for many western people the concept of 'face' is difficult to comprehend. Everywhere I've been in Asia there are misunderstandings/offence caused by westerners who are unfamiliar with this cultural mode of behaviour.

<Slight aside> Interesting article in the Guardian where the daughter of a Yakuza says 'Discrimination is rife', (link) (http://www.guardian.co.uk/japan/story/0,,2112374,00.html). But I suppose I'll be accused of buying into stereotype land because she's Yukuza, and this is an article in a western newspaper ...

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Congrats: you have completely missed/evaded every important point I [actually Habermas and so on...] made...:rolleyes: :D :p :D

But none of those points matter. I was talking about MY experience of contempary Japan and the Japanese, all this other bollocks does not come into/or has affected my experience.
I can't see my friend Toshiro committing sepuku because he double booked a studio. I know nobody who still has a company anthem or even does the work exercise thing anymore. Even if I did, it doesn't mean it's impossible to understand the reasoning behind it.

Are you saying I will never truly understand my wife and my friends? That's what Dwyer was on about. They are just people, it's just a different culture, we all go out an get pissed, eat and sex each other.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

But I suppose I'll be accused of buying into stereotype land because she's Yukuza, and this is an article in a western newspaper ...

I'm not saying none of this happens, I'm just saying from personal experience I have never had any of these 'face' or 'hounor' or racism problems etc. A lot of what I had read and been told turned out to be utter utter rubbish.

In Japan I have been told that it is a fact that all English people carry umbrellas about their person at all times as tradition. I have been told that English men can't physically cry because of their breading. British ladies fannies go a different way. Oh and we all smell of butter.

[zoltan]

I think your perspective is pretty right for Japanese of the younger generation - very few of them want to follow traditions like geisha or avidly read Mishima ( there are some tho' )

I work for them and the comments/ stereotyopes about heirachy/salarymen are still pretty valid in that area - in this sector, you will find discreet "racism" to try to put a name to it - the big corps are always run by time served . Tokyo University educated males pretty much ( something similar to the Grande Ecoles in France ? ) - outsiders dont really stand much of a chance in this environment.

There is definately a sense of "superiority" with the high ranking corporate fellas vs. outsiders and you recognise it after a while.

The plus side is that that you can sleep at your desk and gorge yourself on Sushi.

[jbob]

I'm not saying none of this happens, I'm just saying from personal experience I have never had any of these 'face' or 'hounor' or racism problems etc. A lot of what I had read and been told turned out to be utter utter rubbish.

In Japan I have been told that it is a fact that all English people carry umbrellas about their person at all times as tradition. I have been told that English men can't physically cry because of their breading. British ladies fannies go a different way. Oh and we all smell of butter.

Fair enough, I suppose you're right in the sense that such stereotypes have negative connatations and work in both ways.

The fanny rumour must be a universal myth that's changed depending upon the perspective; I'd heard it Chinese women who this applied to - or rather, I was going out with a Chinese girl once and this cretin from an office I was working in asked me in all seriousness whether it was true. Obviously I replied it was not and that he must be thinking about British women ...

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I think your perspective is pretty right for Japanese of the younger generation - very few of them want to follow traditions like geisha or avidly read Mishima ( there are some tho' )

I work for them and the comments/ stereotyopes about heirachy/salarymen are still pretty valid in that area - in this sector, you will find discreet "racism" to try to put a name to it - the big corps are always run by time served . Tokyo University educated males pretty much ( something similar to the Grande Ecoles in France ? ) - outsiders dont really stand much of a chance in this environment.

There is definately a sense of "superiority" with the high ranking corporate fellas vs. outsiders and you recognise it after a while.

The plus side is that that you can sleep at your desk and gorge yourself on Sushi.

Yeah, I think before that I know nothing of business in Japan apart from what I hear about the company my wife works at and what I see on the telly.
I think the new generation may indeed be different, we don't much behave like Victorians either I suppose.

[gorski]

1) But none of those points matter.

2) I was talking about MY experience of contempary Japan and the Japanese, all this other bollocks does not come into/or has affected my experience.

3) I can't see my friend Toshiro committing sepuku because he double booked a studio.

4) I know nobody who still has a company anthem or even does the work exercise thing anymore. Even if I did, it doesn't mean it's impossible to understand the reasoning behind it.

5) Are you saying I will never truly understand my wife and my friends? That's what Dwyer was on about. They are just people, it's just a different culture, we all go out an get pissed, eat and sex each other.

1) Says who? Not having built a notion of Modern Subject and the corresponding Democratic culture is immaterial? Wow!

2) Oh but it does, one way or another. Whether you saw it affect you or not - is another matter.

3) Good for Toshiro! Bad for the Minster in Q! And many others who do stil do it! But why would you be bothered, eh?

4) Understanding is one thing, justifying it, just because "it is", quite another...

5) Depends on you, your values, what you want in life, how much you know, care to learn etc.

However, do you think it might affect them to be raised in such a culture but live in a Modern world [civilisationaly/scientifically/technologically speaking]?

[phildwyer]

Are you saying I will never truly understand my wife and my friends? That's what Dwyer was on about.

No it wasn't. Mine was a general point about what no-one except you seems disposed to deny: the immense difference between Japanese and Western cultures.

However now that you mention it, I do indeed suspect that you will never understand your wife and friends. You appear to be a rather asocial, hostile and unpleasant individual, with little chance of ever understanding anybody.

[phildwyer]

Yes, but if you've ever worked in a shop in the UK, you'll know this happens all the time with no shame/public humiliation involved. People lose their temper all the time in the UK and it's considered a cultural norm.

I think for many western people the concept of 'face' is difficult to comprehend. Everywhere I've been in Asia there are misunderstandings/offence caused by westerners who are unfamiliar with this cultural mode of behaviour.

That's right. I think anyone who has travelled in Asia with a modicum of awareness and cultural sensitivity will have experienced this. I would say that the distinction between "shame" and "guilt" and the importance of "face" is the greatest single difference between the oriental and the occidental mindsets.

[maximilian ping]

i know more about Japan than anyone on these boards

i haven't been there yet though. is it expensive to fly there?

[gorski]

Have you someone to stay with? That might be expensive , too...

£700 - 800, my friends tell me and they went a year or so ago.

You mean you read about it a lot? So have I and...?:D

[phildwyer]

Have you someone to stay with? That might be expensive , too...

£700 - 800, my friends tell me and they went a year or so ago.

God no, maybe a tenth of that.

[RenegadeDog]

I know it's not a 'city' in the same way that London or NYC is - it barely qualifies as a town compared to them - but this is my favourite city in the world, nonetheless:

http://www.pbase.com/jamieashley/image/59232400/medium.jpg

Leh, Ladakh.

Friendliest people I've ever met, incredible Himalayan scenery, some of the world's best trekking, fascinating Tibetan Buddhist culture. A side trip to Nubra over the world's highest road nearby.

And one of the world's best road trips (http://www.pbase.com/jamieashley/manali_leh) to get there.

And then you go to Kashmir afterwards. Awesome place. Unbeatable for me. :)

Amazing.

Been dreaming about doing this for years. Unfortunately I have been waylaid by getting married and a sprog. Ah well, I shall take the infant when he's a bit older :) :cool:

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

1) Says who? Not having built a notion of Modern Subject and the corresponding Democratic culture is immaterial? Wow!

No, what I was saying was that was nothing to do with me not experiencing any racism in Japan



2) Oh but it does, one way or another. Whether you saw it affect you or not - is another matter.

Oh ok then but that's a different conversation you are having though.



3) Good for Toshiro! Bad for the Minster in Q! And many others who do still do it! But why would you be bothered, eh?


Lot's of people commit suicide in the uk too. Anyway I'm not really contesting this happens, but every day life is not like this in Japan.


4) Understanding is one thing, justifying it, just because "it is", quite another...

Yes, it is, it's also another conversation altogether.



5) Depends on you, your values, what you want in life, how much you know, care to learn etc.

Yeah, but again it's nothing to do with what I was talking about. All very interesting though, make a thread about it.


However, do you think it might affect them to be raised in such a culture but live in a Modern world [civilisationaly/scientifically/technologically speaking]?

The Japanese I know don't seem to be affected in any way by what you have said, they are more affected by Ultraman or Link Wray. I can only speak about the people I know.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

No it wasn't. Mine was a general point about what no-one except you seems disposed to deny: the immense difference between Japanese and Western cultures.


No. I said I found life and people in Japan after the language to be socially more like/in tune with my life in the UK. I think all your book reading and insisting on reading into things can help widen the gap in your perception.

I really don't think the gap between people in Tokyo and people in London is as crazy as you think after you take away the language barrier. Especially the modern youth/adult in Japan. When you make telly or write a book about something, you do it about the interesting stuff, that doesn't mean that the whole picture.
I've watched programmes in Japan about the crazy shit the English get up to, but we don't all do it and it isn't a deep seated part of our culture.

I think you are getting too up yourself about all this. all I was telling you about was my experience, and you said I was wrong. Wrong about my friends and family and my experiences because of what you read in a fucking book about an entire country's history.




However now that you mention it, I do indeed suspect that you will never understand your wife and friends. You appear to be a rather asocial, hostile and unpleasant individual, with little chance of ever understanding anybody.

Sez you Dwyer the most popular and revered man on the boards.

Never unpleasant at all ever.

[gorski]

God no, maybe a tenth of that.

Sorry, from London. This is what I found: from £499 to 700+...

http://www.cheapflights.co.uk/flights/Sapporo/London-Area/

[phildwyer]

Sorry, from London. This is what I found: from £499 to 700+...

http://www.cheapflights.co.uk/flights/Sapporo/London-Area/

I thought you were talking about accomodation!

[gorski]

So, how much is accomodation, then? My friends had somewhere to stay...;)

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

If I'm only going for a couple of weeks or so I rent a short let apartment usually in Shinjuku (my favourite area). This costs about £500 for two to three weeks. I stayed in an apartment in Shimosanakayama (chiba) which only cost about £400 a month a few years ago.

I'm told there are some nice cheap boarding houses for foreigners, I have never been to these but I should imagine they are more fun (and cheaper) than hotels.

[gorski]

Thanx!:cool:

[gorski]

Athens as a city is mainly crap:( - but the Ancient stuff there is.... WOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:) ;) :cool: :p

[electric.avenue]

But you missed out Kyoto.

And Stockholm.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Kyoto is pretty boring unless you like temples, hot summers and tourists.
Hazlewood loves Stockholm so maybe there is something in it.

[electric.avenue]

Kyoto boring? Agreed, August there is hot. But you have the fantastic cherry blossom all along the Kamogawa and the Takanogawa in the spring. You have the beautiful leaves in autumn.

As for places in Kyoto, apart from the temples, (or shirleys, as a mate of mine charmingly called them): you have the Philosopher's Road, (Tetsugaku Michi), Maruyama Park, the fabulous gardens of the Heian Shrine, you can go up Mount Hiei - in fact there are loads of lovely walks in the surrounding mountains.

You've got the downtown area with its great nightlife: Jazz Quest, Bar Isn't It, Rub A Dub, Cock A Hoop, the punk bar Backgammon. A bit further north you have Metro nightclub, Studio 37. There are some really good venues such as Taku Taku, etc. Then there's all the good places to eat such as Time Paradox, Didi's, Mahoroba, etc. There's even a UK style pub - which is v international - the Pig and Whistle.

Sounds like you visited Kyoto in August, and were dragged round a load of temples - no wonder it didn't make a strong impression.

[phildwyer]

Kyoto's two cities innit? There's the old one with all the temples and tea-houses, and there's the new one, which isn't exactly Tokyo but is still pretty interesting imo. I'll always remember Geisha girls in full costume getting pissed up in the brew pub after work...

[bluestreak]

i only said london because i live there. i haven;t even been to most of those places listed.

[phildwyer]

i only said london because i live there. i haven;t even been to most of those places listed.

Yes, I suspect a lot of people are in the same boat. I shouldn't have put London in the poll really.

[BCB]

Dubai without a doubt.:cool:

[Errol's son]

Dubai without a doubt.:cool:

What is there to do in Dubai except shop?

I am going there next month for 48 hours as I have never been there before and am flying Emirates.

What can I do aside from shopping which I do not enjoy?

What do you recommend?

[gorski]

Skiing!:D [Allegedly...:p]

[g force]

Ugh....Dubai is awful. The new buildings are breath taking but that's about it. It's like a desert version of Fulham...too many people with too much money for their own good.

The 'media city' was kinda cool, great offices to work in but jesus it was boring as hell.

[Pol]

San Fran is nice, but its in the USA...

Cape Town is nice, but its doesn't feel safe at all...

Amsterdam might be nice to live in... but it sucks as a tourist imo.

Barcelona is beautiful...

Paris is full of french people :D

New York is... um...

haven't been to any others.

I like London because of the music scene, all we need is coffee shops like amsterdam and wer'e rocking :D

[Errol's son]

Ugh....Dubai is awful. The new buildings are breath taking but that's about it. It's like a desert version of Fulham...too many people with too much money for their own good.

The 'media city' was kinda cool, great offices to work in but jesus it was boring as hell.

How long does it take to get bored?

[electric.avenue]

Kyoto's two cities innit? There's the old one with all the temples and tea-houses, and there's the new one, which isn't exactly Tokyo but is still pretty interesting imo. I'll always remember Geisha girls in full costume getting pissed up in the brew pub after work...

Sorry to seem nitpicky but, they aren't "geisha girls", but simply "geisha". The young apprentices are known as "maiko".

[Zorra]

Best city in the world = Nairobi :)

[drcarnage]

Hong Kong by a long shot.

i used to go down there just to drink beer and look at the mountains.

[Jessiedog]

Hong Kong by a long shot.

i used to go down there just to drink beer and look at the mountains.
Aye!

:)

Woof

[metalguru]

It was a million times better before Giuliani, true. In those days it was incredibly exciting just to walk around the block. Now it's much less unique, more like any other big, Western city. But I still love it best, probably because I spent my 20's there.

I still get that with New York...For me, it's way more exciting visually than other cities I've visited.

Maybe it's because I'm familiar with it, but London scores particularly badly in this respect. Yes, the view from Waterloo Bridge is great - but the average view of just walking a block is usually mundane.

[electric.avenue]

Hong Kong by a long shot.

i used to go down there just to drink beer and look at the mountains.

The views from the Hiker's Trail around the Victoria Peak are just brilliant.

[Jessiedog]

Hmmm. :rolleyes: On how many days last year could you actually see across the Bay from Kowloon to HK island or vice versa?
As we're talking about "the views", it seems an appropriate time to respond to this.

Bottom line? Yes! We have a pollution problem, as do many cities.

The good news is we are aware of it and (together with cajouling Guangdong to get its act together,) are taking steps to improve things.

Over the last few years all 18,000 taxis have switched to LPG and we're now in the process of converting all minibuses.

All new vehicles, including commercial, must comply with the latest EuroIV standards. All older vehicles have been retrofitted with catalytic converters.

We're not there yet, but we're getting there.

And although nobody believes the government's assertions that these efforts have been responsible for the longest period of uniterrupted, beautiful, clear-blue skies in Hong Kong since 1999, which have just occurred (April - July 2007) - rather it has more to do with the summer monsoon wind prevailing northwards - there is no doubt we're heading in the right direction.

It's been a GREAT summer - hot and humid as always, but sunny, big-blue skies, fluffy white clouds, etc. and an absolute delight to go swimming in the South China Sea at weekends - the rainforested mountains surrounding the coves emerging resplendent in 27 different shades of green.

*sigh*

:)

Rock on Hong Kong!

:)

Woof

[Xanadu]

Best city in the world = Nairobi :)

Apparently it's well dodgy though. Unless things have changed in the past 30 years?

[Xanadu]

I still get that with New York...For me, it's way more exciting visually than other cities I've visited.

Maybe it's because I'm familiar with it, but London scores particularly badly in this respect. Yes, the view from Waterloo Bridge is great - but the average view of just walking a block is usually mundane.

I love walking around London. I've lived here for 20-odd years, and I still don't find it mundane. New York is really cool though.

[chico enrico]

tokyo by a million miles!!

then london.

new york is boring. LA is much better.

:)

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

tokyo by a million miles!!

then london.

new york is boring.


:)

I think I aggree but I sometimes wonder if the grass isn't always greener.
There are always more things that I want to do in Tokyo and more cool shops for me to go to. I can't think of anything that I have had fun doing in NY that I couldn't really do anywhere else (Bar visiting friends that live in NY)

[gabi]

I'd say the nightlife is better in some respects in NY. Certainly a lot classier/sophisticated.

That said, I like the down n dirty nightlife of london too. But now and then a change is good.

(they actually know a thing or two about something called 'customer service' in NY too, unlike here in merry old england)

[zoltan]

Pyongyang.

Cleanest city Ive ever been to

Orderly

No barging or pushing on the Metro

No vandalism.

polite people


One day the whole world will be just like Pyongyang

[japanese001]

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/3479/tokyort6.jpg

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9443/tokyo2lw5.jpg

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=278
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAcBnbj9ylw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU6Pglj6xuA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV-R_4_3Qpw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDnYu8_PttA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kvauIAcU_k

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Interesting first and only post???

[drcarnage]

As we're talking about "the views", it seems an appropriate time to respond to this.

Bottom line? Yes! We have a pollution problem, as do many cities.

The good news is we are aware of it and (together with cajouling Guangdong to get its act together,) are taking steps to improve things.

Over the last few years all 18,000 taxis have switched to LPG and we're now in the process of converting all minibuses.

All new vehicles, including commercial, must comply with the latest EuroIV standards. All older vehicles have been retrofitted with catalytic converters.

We're not there yet, but we're getting there.

And although nobody believes the government's assertions that these efforts have been responsible for the longest period of uniterrupted, beautiful, clear-blue skies in Hong Kong since 1999, which have just occurred (April - July 2007) - rather it has more to do with the summer monsoon wind prevailing northwards - there is no doubt we're heading in the right direction.

It's been a GREAT summer - hot and humid as always, but sunny, big-blue skies, fluffy white clouds, etc. and an absolute delight to go swimming in the South China Sea at weekends - the rainforested mountains surrounding the coves emerging resplendent in 27 different shades of green.

*sigh*

:)

Rock on Hong Kong!

:)

Woof



I was in Guangzhou in July and the weather there was beautiful. Not so stuffy, but pleasantly hot with blue sky everyday! Much better than it was four years ago. The efforts they're putting into the city (and the whole PRD) is starting to pay off. Getting rid of all those motorbikes was a huge task, but it worked: I didn't see a single one down there.

Now, if only Beijing could get its act together!

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Montpellier.






The one in France.

[D]

new york is boring. LA is much better.

I can understand preferring LA to NY, but not because NY is "boring". Please explain.

[Jessiedog]

I was in Guangzhou in July and the weather there was beautiful. Not so stuffy, but pleasantly hot with blue sky everyday! Much better than it was four years ago. The efforts they're putting into the city (and the whole PRD) is starting to pay off. Getting rid of all those motorbikes was a huge task, but it worked: I didn't see a single one down there.
Indeed.

It'll take more time and a lot more effort, but it's heading in the right direction.

:)



Now, if only Beijing could get its act together!
Ummmm. Yeah. That's another thing entirely.

Although from 08/08/08 for about a month, it should be better than usual in Beijing.

;)

Woof

[drcarnage]

Although from 08/08/08 for about a month, it should be better than usual in Beijing.


Yes, for one month, but what happenes after? Everytime I read a newspaper/turn on the TV they say all these things are for 2008. What I don't understand is why they don't build things that will last longer?

To me, the Beijing Olympics is like your mum telling you to tidy your room, yet you just chuck everything under the bed when she comes to inspect.

[drcarnage]

Indeed.

It'll take more time and a lot more effort, but it's heading in the right direction.

The whole PRD/Hong Kong area is like a different state compared with the country. Shenzhen seems to be improving (although I hate the place with a passion). Also, this new bridge from Zhuhai to HK can really help both cities.

Jesus I sound like a cctv reporter. :o