Plaid Cymru Leader goes Nuclear!

[Udo Erasmus]

Ieuan Whinge Jones, rightwinger & Leader of Plaid Cymru has sunk even lower. After indicating that he would be prepared to be in a coalition with the Tories - "For the good of Wales", after supporting the St. Athan Murder Academy, he has now stated he would support a new nuclear power station being built in Anglesey/Ynys Mon! This means that the leader of Plaid Cymru is the only party leader in Wales to support nuclear power. Plaid are now to the right of Labour on the question of nuclear power - even Rhodri Morgan opposes new nukes.

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/newspolitics/tm_method=full%26objectid=18866327%26siteid=50082-name_page.html



Mr Jones said last night, "My position is quite clear - I am in favour of Wylfa B so long as conditions are met. We need to know what kind of reactor there would be, how many jobs would be created and how the waste would be disposed of.

There are 1,500 jobs at stake here and there would be economic catastrophe in Anglesey without the power station and Anglesey Aluminium. I have a duty to put the interests of my constituents first.



He seems to have forgotten that his constituents might not like rocketing leukemia rates and nuclear waste that will be live for thousands of years. He seems to have forgotten that nuclear power is unclean, unsafe, unsustainable and cannot be part of a solution to global warming.
He seems to have forgotten that only months ago, he claimed to be against nuclear power.

But this is also bad news for the entire movement in the UK against nuclear power.

With New Labour wanting to push through a new generation of nuclear power stations, Plaid Cymru are weakening the fight back against nuclear power everywhere by supporting this plant.


Plaid Cymru? No thanks!

[Udo Erasmus]

1997 General Election Manifesto
"Nuclear energy is now a broken dream. The only safe way forward is to reduce the demand for energy and develop the use of renewables."

1999 Assembly Election Manifesto
"We will operate on the basis of a presumption against further open cast mining and nuclear power stations."

2001 General Election Manifesto
"As our dependence on fossil fuels must be reduced and since nuclear energy is not an acceptable option, we shall press for very substantial growth in renewable energy."

2003 Assembly Election Manifesto
"We will call for the devolution of responsibility for large-scale energy projects to the Assembly. This will enable us to block any new nuclear energy stations."

2005 General Election Manifesto
"Plaid Cymru the Party of Wales does not support new nuclear power stations."

2007 Pre-manifesto, Change for the Better
"Plaid Cymru does not support nuclear power."

2007 Assembly Election Manifesto
Zilch. Rien. Nothing. Dim byd.

Plaid's journey seems familiar:

Who said in 1983: "We don't need dangerous and costly Trident missiles"?
A: Tony Blair.

Q: Who said in 1984: Trident is "unacceptable, expensive, economically wasteful and militarily unsound"?
A: Gordon Brown - soon to be Blair's succes

[laptop]

Plaid Cymru? No thanks!

That's Plaid Cymru? Dim dioloch! isn't it?

* Reminisces about printing thousands of them back in the day *

[Udo Erasmus]

That's Plaid Cymru? Dim dioloch! isn't it?

* Reminisces about printing thousands of them back in the day *

Why were you printing these leaflets?

I was alluding to the slogan, "Nuclear Power - No thanks"

[lewislewis]

You've never even been to Ynys Mon you complete cretin, you have literally no idea about that island and about the people that work for wylfa or for the aluminium plant.
Why don't you go to Anglesey and talk to the workers and ask them what they think about the closure? Wylfa is closing down and this replacement would safeguard their jobs. This isn't an expansion of nuclear energy it is continuation. There is nothing hypocritical about Jones supporting it. You are so removed from everything that matters to people in Wales. You are moaning about these fashionable issues from some very strange false perspective embedded in your tiny sect, people in Ynys Mon do not even know 'Respect' political party exists. Sod off.
Labour are opposed to because their candidate doesn't live on Ynys Mon and doesn't have a clue what is going on there.
The Labour candidate is the same as you. A South Wales-centric idiot. I am a south Walian to an extent of course but even I know that this part of Wales, where we can comfortably call for the closure of nuclear power plants without asking the people that work there, does not represent the Wales up on the island. You do not realise how much is at stake.

You don't give a shit about the actual working people that depend on that industry for their livelihood, so just leave it

Edit- And the fact that Labour opposes this, is one of the reasons Ieuan Wyn Jones (the right-winger?!) will win the election in a few weeks time. So don't even bother pondering what his 'constituents' think about the matter.

[Dic Penderyn]

Nuclear power stations are no good for humanity. we're better off without them. end of. the jobs arguement is a weak one. didn't you use it recently for the arms trade? You'll be telling us that wales might as keep our nuclear power station open, the english will only have a new one otherwise!

[laptop]

I was alluding to the slogan, "Nuclear Power - No thanks"

And I was misremembering the sticker:

http://nonewnukes.ukrivers.net/welsh1sm.gif

...which I was printing up, years ago.

And remembering the Scottish Gaelic "Nuclear-Free Scotland" sticker. We couldn't work out whether it should be "nuiclach" or "niuclasach" (phonetic).

So I called around and found the editor of the next Gaelic dictionary. We agreed there and then that "nuiclach" would be "nuclear" and "niuclasach" "nucleic" - as in Dexoyribo-Nucleic-Acid. My small contribution to keeping the language alive :)

[llantwit]

You've never even been to Ynys Mon you complete cretin, you have literally no idea about that island and about the people that work for wylfa or for the aluminium plant.
Why don't you go to Anglesey and talk to the workers and ask them what they think about the closure? Wylfa is closing down and this replacement would safeguard their jobs. This isn't an expansion of nuclear energy it is continuation. There is nothing hypocritical about Jones supporting it. You are so removed from everything that matters to people in Wales. You are moaning about these fashionable issues from some very strange false perspective embedded in your tiny sect, people in Ynys Mon do not even know 'Respect' political party exists. Sod off.
Labour are opposed to because their candidate doesn't live on Ynys Mon and doesn't have a clue what is going on there.
The Labour candidate is the same as you. A South Wales-centric idiot. I am a south Walian to an extent of course but even I know that this part of Wales, where we can comfortably call for the closure of nuclear power plants without asking the people that work there, does not represent the Wales up on the island. You do not realise how much is at stake.

You don't give a shit about the actual working people that depend on that industry for their livelihood, so just leave it

Edit- And the fact that Labour opposes this, is one of the reasons Ieuan Wyn Jones (the right-winger?!) will win the election in a few weeks time. So don't even bother pondering what his 'constituents' think about the matter.
Fuck me Lewis Lewis - if it comes to this kind of sclerotic nonsense every time when it comes to the crunch where will we be? Everyone (yes, even the poor 'simple folk' on Ynys Mon - that's how you make them sound, by the way) will have to make some very tough choices in the near future about energy and the way we fuel our bloated over-consumption. The jobs argument is a non-starter on this - a nuclear future is just not sustainable. Other countries have taken the tough choices and phased out nuclear power (Germany, etc). So must we. It's not a 'trendy' issue, along with climate change it's THE issue of this century.

[Crispy]

Plaid are now to the right of Labour on the question of nuclear power

Why is nuclear power a left/right issue?

[llantwit]

Because it has been traditionally, and we shouldn't trust the right to give a flying fuck about the environment no matter how many huskie rides to work David Cameron takes?

[lewislewis]

Nuclear power stations are no good for humanity. we're better off without them. end of. the jobs arguement is a weak one. didn't you use it recently for the arms trade? You'll be telling us that wales might as keep our nuclear power station open, the english will only have a new one otherwise!

It provides about 10% of Wales' power.

Nowhere have I said about building them all over Wales. If we're talking about energy in Wales in general, we need to make renewables our main project. If you put enough money into renewable energy you can create alot of it, we should take the country to a 'war-footing' against climate change and spend comparable amounts on renewable energy to what has been spent on the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Crispy]

It provides about 10% of Wales' power.

Nowhere have I said about building them all over Wales. If we're talking about energy in Wales in general, we need to make renewables our main project. If you put enough money into renewable energy you can create alot of it, we should take the country to a 'war-footing' against climate change and spend comparable amounts on renewable energy to what has been spent on the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Agreed. But this is not a left or right wing view. Such a push for renewables could be a public or a private project - and can be justified on both sides, politically.

[lewislewis]

Fuck me Lewis Lewis - if it comes to this kind of sclerotic nonsense every time when it comes to the crunch where will we be? Everyone (yes, even the poor 'simple folk' on Ynys Mon - that's how you make them sound, by the way) will have to make some very tough choices in the near future about energy and the way we fuel our bloated over-consumption. The jobs argument is a non-starter on this - a nuclear future is just not sustainable. Other countries have taken the tough choices and phased out nuclear power (Germany, etc). So must we. It's not a 'trendy' issue, along with climate change it's THE issue of this century.

I don't make them sound like 'simple folk' at all I have connections and friends there and know that their priorities and needs are different to the kind Udo Erasmus envisages.
Mining may not have been healthy work either, or good for the environment, but we fought long and hard to keep that going.
This is a smaller issue in every way but in principle I will not oppose keeping those jobs. It isn't as if they are just 'jobs for the boys' it's a matter of vital importance to the island in keeping those people in work, and the companies on Ynys Mon that depend on Wylfa. We are not talking about a few hundred people it's thousands and their families, and then the others that work in the companies like anglesey aluminium. This is all about 'tough choices' i agree. People that don't know how things are on the island will have a more simplified opinion.

[lewislewis]

Agreed. But this is not a left or right wing view. Such a push for renewables could be a public or a private project - and can be justified on both sides, politically.

Sure, I don't really care about who is left or who is right in this instance, it's just what is best for human beings. Going to a war-footing against climate change might harm the economy in the short-term because of taxation etc, but we need to do it now otherwise in the long-term there won't be anybody left, or an economy or houses or jobs or ideologies.

[llantwit]

Agreed. But this is not a left or right wing view. Such a push for renewables could be a public or a private project - and can be justified on both sides, politically.
I just can't bring myself to believe that the thirst for short-term profit that characterises the private sector could be overcome enough to take the long-term view neccessitated by clean, renewable, and fair climate policies.

[Crispy]

I just can't bring myself to believe that the thirst for short-term profit that characterises the private sector could be overcome enough to take the long-term view neccessitated by clean, renewable, and fair climate policies.
Oh, it would have to be initiated by government, no doubt - and I'd much rather see a system built and owned by the people. But IMO, the issue is so important, that I'm tempted to think "I don't care HOW, just DO IT" - and care about the politics afterwards. There's a very real material threat that needs to be countered one way or the other. A war mentality is what's needed.

[llantwit]

You are moaning about these fashionable issues from some very strange false perspective embedded in your tiny sect, people in Ynys Mon do not even know 'Respect' political party exists. Sod off.
I take your point about his sect, but this to me sounds like the people of Ynys Mon are unable to see how important renewable energy and climate policies are to the future of the planet - hence my 'simple folk' comment. It's not merely a 'fashionable issue' is it? And to be fair to Udo I don' think he's doing this to jump on the latest bandwaggon - I genuinely think he's passionate about green issues. This is an example of the kind of red/green tension we're all going to see more of in the near future, and the sooner the knee-jerk 'protect jobs at all costs' reaction is replaced with a much more sophisticated and complex set of ideas that sees the neccesity of creating 'clean' jobs to replace the dirty ones the better.

Other countries have phased out nuclear - why can''t Wales too?

[llantwit]

Oh, it would have to be initiated by government, no doubt - and I'd much rather see a system built and owned by the people. But IMO, the issue is so important, that I'm tempted to think "I don't care HOW, just DO IT" - and care about the politics afterwards. There's a very real material threat that needs to be countered one way or the other. A war mentality is what's needed.
I'd be tempted to agree with you if I thought the Tories were doing anything other than lying through their teeth about their commitment to the environment.:(

[Crispy]

I'd be tempted to agree with you if I thought the Tories were doing anything other than lying through their teeth about their commitment to the environment.:(
And any of the other likely leaders of the country are doing anything different?

[llantwit]

And any of the other likely leaders of the country are doing anything different?
Nope.

[munkeeunit]

Whenever people invoke impending catastrophe if a particular economic/development path isn't taken you can be certain they are on very weak ground. The whole notion of invoking impending doom, or that 'there is no alternative' (TINA) in an argument, is to bypass any debate about what real alternatives may exist, and there are always many.

Economic Neo-liberalism barged it's way onto global scene by invoking TINA and impending economic catastrophy if all it's simplistic solutions were not globally adopted, only to bring much of the developing world to it's economic knees, and to plunge much of latin america into absolute poverty rates of 50%.

There is always an alternative, and the alternatives are often better than the scaremongering used to bully people into accepting extreme right-wing solutions. That's why bullying is needed.

[munkeeunit]

Also, that nuclear energy is a renewable resource is a complete lie and myth.

Nuclear power stations are powered by uranium, a non-renewable resource, which has to be mined from the ground. It is one of the most scarce resources there is.

Estimates vary, but the most shocking estimate of what a non-starter nuclear energy is, is based on there being only enough uranium to provide 2 years worth of power if the whole world turned nuclear.

It is less viable than oil.

This extreme scarcity of uranium as a resource is a big reason why they do not wish that many countries, beyond those countries which already have the technology to ever be allowed to develop nuclear power.

Namely countries such as Iran.

[Crispy]

Breeder reactors neatly sidestep the limited uranium issue. But nobody's built a big commercial one yet. Don't worry, we'll have fusion in 15 year's time! :p

[laptop]

Don't worry, we'll have fusion in 15 year's time! :p

Posted on 10 April 1992, 10 April 1977, 10 April 1962... :D

[munkeeunit]

Breeder reactors neatly sidestep the limited uranium issue. But nobody's built a big commercial one yet. Don't worry, we'll have fusion in 15 year's time! :p

We'll also soon be able to tap into the unlimited energy matrix of dark matter :rolleyes:

Depending on what your definition of soon is. :)

[munkeeunit]

Something which gets me about renewables though, is when people refer to solar energy, wind and wave energy, etc, as zero emission.

Well, they're not zero emission, as it stands they require vast amounts of oil inputs right through from mining the raw materials to manufacture, and unless we start building them on a massive scale very, very soon, then the peak of oil production will have been reached, and there will simply not be enough surplus energy to sustain our current lifestyles, let alone engage in a wholesale restructuring of our energy sources.

We haven't got time or energy to waste on building up a nuclear industry which relies on a raw material even more scarce than oil.

We will be left with no oil, no uranium, and no renewables, and no surplus energy to resource pipe dreams like nuclear fusion either.

[Udo Erasmus]

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/0/0d/Rhodri_Morgan.jpghttp://www.plaidcymru.org/uploads/ImageRoot/images/fCpBTgKV.jpg
Rhodri Morgan attracted deserved ridicule when he refused to state his position on the Iraq War on the basis that it was an issue for Westminster not the Assembly.

Does this sound familiar:



The reason there is no reference to nuclear energy in our manifesto is because it is a non-devolved issue, with decisions taken at Westminster.



Strange. In the 1999 Assembly Manifesto, Plaid were able to state where they stood on nuclear power - they were unequivocally against. In 2003, they were still able to say they were against nuclear power. In 2007, it is a non-devolved issue - what a capitulation!

The Labour candidate for Ynys Mon is right to lambast Ieuan's Rhodri-like wriggling:


Which Ieuan Wyn Jones are people supposed to believe? The Ieuan who appeared on the BBC to say he was not sure about Wylfa? The Ieuan who says in his pre-manifesto he is against nuclear power? Or the Ieuan who tells audiences in Ynys Mon he is in favour of nuclear power?

If he can't be open and honest about where he stands on this issue, how on earth can people trust him with the big decisions of government.


And here is some classic Rhodri Morgan doublespeak:


This is an attempt by Labour to smear me, and I deeply deplore that. They are desperate because their campaign is not going well and they will try anything. They have a candidate who lives in Cardiff and who spends very little time here.

The reason there is no reference to nuclear energy in our manifesto is because it is a non-devolved issue, with decisions taken at Westminster


I have given up trying to prove that Plaid are reactionary - their leader seems happy to do it for me!:D

[mwgdrwg]

I live on the island and think it's a fucking joke that the council and Plaid Cymru are going "pleas sir, give me a second nuclear power station" in a desperate Alan Partridge style.

The closure date has been known for many years yet nothing has been put in place to deal with the obvious economic "fallout". The abnormally high cancer rates will no doubt get even higher...still, at least people have jobs eh?

[munkeeunit]

Sure, I don't really care about who is left or who is right in this instance, it's just what is best for human beings. Going to a war-footing against climate change might harm the economy in the short-term because of taxation etc, but we need to do it now otherwise in the long-term there won't be anybody left, or an economy or houses or jobs or ideologies.

Going on a war-footing against climate change would massively boost the economy, but would also lead to a radical shift in power structures, such as a sudden decline in the power and influence of oil (and nuclear) companies, and probably a very large increase in inflation, but which would be perfectly manageable.

Inflation is not always a bad thing, and is even a good thing if it is a result of the massive creation of employment - employment which would be far more localised in nature, but the worst possible scenario is the kind of inflationary stagnation which is looming as oil prices continue to ratchet upwards.

[llantwit]

The closure date has been known for many years yet nothing has been put in place to deal with the obvious economic "fallout".
Exactly!

[llantwit]

Going on a war-footing against climate change would massively boost the economy, but would also lead to a radical shift in power structures, such as a sudden decline in the power and influence of oil (and nuclear) companies, and probably a very large increase in inflation, but which would be perfectly manageable.

Inflation is not always a bad thing, and is even a good thing if it is a result of the massive creation of employment - employment which would be far more localised in nature, but the worst possible scenario is the kind of inflationary stagnation which is looming as oil prices continue to ratchet upwards.
I've not heard of this "war-footing" against climate change before - where does the phrase come from?

[Udo Erasmus]

I don't believe taxation (except against multinationals - the very people who Plaid favour giving tax breaks to!) is the way to create a new green economy.
The mainstream parties have focused on taxation as a way to appear to be green while blocking making the necessary structural adjustments to society. For example, massive investment in renewable energy, taking on corporations like ExxonMobil, a transfer away from roadbuilding and private motoring towards public transport. New Labour's roadbuilding programme is actually larger than the Tories. The tories programme led to the movement of the 90s against roadbuilding - we need a new mass movement to fight for action on climate change on every front.

The kind of measures needed to tackle climate change would generate huge numbers of jobs.

For example, massive increase in public transport would create jobs building trains and buses, jobs for drivers and the various administrative jobs around transport.

A massive programme of building insulation would generate jobs.

Building the infrastructure for renewable energy would similarly generate jobs.

The trouble is for the last 30 years all the main parties (including Plaid) have embraced neoliberalism and rolling back of the state and the entry of private companies into every area of society.

The kind of measures needed go against neoliberalism. If the government started moving towards public transport, people would ask why not roll back other privatisations?

[munkeeunit]

PS: For those economists out there who have a clue what I'm on about. Keynesian demand management, which became associated with inflation by the 70's (due to it's misuse), was initially devised during WWII, as a means by which both to go on a war footing, and *contain* inflationary pressures.

All the mechanisms exist to go onto a war footing against climate change, while boosting the economy, and containing inflation, but it is the nuclear and oil companies, and the politicians who are not economists, but who are naively wedded to the neo-liberal ideologues, who stand in the way of a going onto a war footing against climate change, while using known economic mechanism to stabilise the economy at the same time.

It's that these mechanisms are associated with the left, that politicians won't touch them (but without really understanding them).

[Udo Erasmus]

I've not heard of this "war-footing" against climate change before - where does the phrase come from?

I think the idea alludes to the government during the second world war. Introducing measures like rationing and taking over areas of the economy and taking radical measures in the face of the threat of Nazi invasion.

The idea is that the government today should treat our current situation as a national emergency that would require radical measures.

[Udo Erasmus]

All the mechanisms exist to go onto a war footing against climate change, while boosting the economy, and containing inflation, but it is the nuclear and oil companies, and the politicians who are not economists, but who are naively wedded to the neo-liberal ideologues, who stand in the way of a going onto a war footing against climate change, while using known economic mechanism to stabilise the economy at the same time.


I have heard that of the ten biggest corporations in the world - 4 are oil companies and three are car companies (or it might be the other way around?)

So we're up against a mighty concentration of corporate power.

Too bad Plaid blew it at the first hurdle

[Udo Erasmus]

Presumably Plaid won't support action like this in Ynys Mon:

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/04/367623.html

[munkeeunit]

I have heard that of the ten biggest corporations in the world - 4 are oil companies and three are car companies (or it might be the other way around?)

So we're up against a mighty concentration of corporate power.

Yes, we are, and unfortunately, from my experiences of the left (which I am a part of) a big reason why this concentration of power if not being succesfully challenged, is that nowadays the overwhelming majority of people who are politically active are not economically literate, do not know how to run/steer/modify an econmony, and as a result are generally not socialists in the sense of comprending the economy, but are generally just people with a strong sense of moral purpose, and as a result do not know how to challenge this concentration of power, beyond piling on moral pressure.

As a result of that moral pressure, these corpporations occassionally bend, but they bend towards nuclear power, which they can still broadly retain unquestioned control over.

[lewislewis]

Ieuan Wyn Jones' position is quite clear as the Assembly Member for Ynys Mon. He does not get to make the decision, even if he was in government it is not in Wales' current powers.
Now, any position IWJ takes must be in the context that Labour will make the final decision.

If Labour said 'let's close Wylfa and transfer all the workers into a renewable energy industry' then that would be something worth supporting. Instead, there has not really been any action aside from vague gestures and promises. Let's be realistic, if the government doesn't continue the employment of those workers, they will just become unemployment statistics. That is the context we should debate this issue in and I don't have a problem with IWJ's position, although once Wales has full law-making powers we will transcend to a nuclear-free Wales.
Let's have Iraq-style war spending diverted entirely to renewable energy. The problem in these elections is that the powers to embark on this crusade lie with Westminster!

[Udo Erasmus]

Ieuan Wyn Jones' position is quite clear as the Assembly Member for Ynys Mon. He does not get to make the decision, even if he was in government it is not in Wales' current powers.


This was the same argument that Rhodri used on the Iraq War on Question Time - that it was a Westminster not a Welsh issue. This argument was ridiculed then and it should be ridiculed now


Now, any position IWJ takes must be in the context that Labour will make the final decision.


Wouldn't the local AM (and leader of a political party) be able to influence the decision if he stated clearly and unequivocally - "over my dead body". Wouldn't the support of a high profile figure help build a mass campaign against the plant that could force the government to back down. Do IWJs actions make it easier or harder for Blair and Brown to push through with new Nukes. The answer has to be IWJ makes it easier.


If Labour said 'let's close Wylfa and transfer all the workers into a renewable energy industry' then that would be something worth supporting. Instead, there has not really been any action aside from vague gestures and promises. Let's be realistic, if the government doesn't continue the employment of those workers, they will just become unemployment statistics. That is the context we should debate this issue in and I don't have a problem with IWJ's position, although once Wales has full law-making powers we will transcend to a nuclear-free Wales.


Wylfa IS closing at the end of the decade.

The position of Respect is that all nuclear power plants should be shut down. This also used to be the position of Plaid. It probably still is )to her credit) the position of your deputy-leader Jill Evans.

Many people felt that we had won the argument about nuclear power - that it is not a good thing. But nuclear power is back with a vengeance & the main argument the government is marshalling is spurious - that it is the only way to solve climate change.

Will stating that you support building new Nukes really help the anti-nuclear campaign or facilitate a transfer to renewable energy?

Is IWJ really making a nuclear free Wales more likely or less likely by his actions?

[lewislewis]

This was the same argument that Rhodri used on the Iraq War on Question Time - that it was a Westminster not a Welsh issue. This argument was ridiculed then and it should be ridiculed now



Wouldn't the local AM (and leader of a political party) be able to influence the decision if he stated clearly and unequivocally - "over my dead body". Wouldn't the support of a high profile figure help build a mass campaign against the plant that could force the government to back down. Do IWJs actions make it easier or harder for Blair and Brown to push through with new Nukes. The answer has to be IWJ makes it easier.



Wylfa IS closing at the end of the decade.

The position of Respect is that all nuclear power plants should be shut down. This also used to be the position of Plaid. It probably still is )to her credit) the position of your deputy-leader Jill Evans.

Many people felt that we had won the argument about nuclear power - that it is not a good thing. But nuclear power is back with a vengeance & the main argument the government is marshalling is spurious - that it is the only way to solve climate change.

Will stating that you support building new Nukes really help the anti-nuclear campaign or facilitate a transfer to renewable energy?

Is IWJ really making a nuclear free Wales more likely or less likely by his actions?

1. No it isn't the same arugment as Rhodri-Iraq, because IWJ has put his seat on the line by declaring an opinion. Rhodri Morgan didn't.

2. Yes he would influence the decision, he is choosing to support the workers and their families. Do you think Labour will find alternative employment for these workers? And specifically, do you think that employment will be in the renewable energy sector?

3. The people of the island would not support such a mass campaign. Maybe they would be more inclined to support it, if the government made a guarantee of alternative employment?

4. On this logic, we shouldn't have supported the miners, because mining wasn't environmentally viable, was a health catastrophe and generated vast profits for big business and multi-nationals. Yet we, and our parents and families (for younger members of the board) supported the miners. I'm not comparing the consequences or political conditions equally here, just the principle.

5. On nuclear power in general, there shouldn't be any expansion of nuclear energy in Wales. This is Plaid's policy. My personal aim would be for a nuclear-free Wales by 2050, with most if not all of our energy generated by renewables by then. The people in Ynys Mon probably have different opinions to me.

6. If IWJ supported the end of the nuclear industry on Ynys Mon, the fact remains you would still oppose Plaid and seek to undermine Wales' only independent party. It is your right to do so, but you are not acting to help the people of Ynys Mon and your organisation won't have a candidate in that constituency. You can't just take a whole slab of their economic life away from them !

IWJ isn't stating he supports building new nukes, simply the issue on Ynys Mon, which is a Labour government policy not a Plaid Cymru one.

This whole controversy wouldn't even have come up if Wales had control over it's own energy policies.
Respect, though an infant and somewhat irrelevant organisation in Wales, would have a more solid-footing if it came out in support of a proper parliament for Wales. I acknowledge that Respect's opinion would mean little on paper, but people would be more familiar with where you stand.

One final point, you are demonstrating a tendency to blame Labour's failures on Plaid, claiming that our support for them in some way makes us guilty, in my opinion this is because there are not any Labour supporters on this board (no surprise there) for you to vent your frustrations against. Though you do seem very keen on Welsh Labour, saying Rhodri is to the left of Ieuan, and that the St. Athan academy and Wylfa B are Plaid inventions :confused: and of course your previous party the SWP being electorally pro-New Labour in the past.

[Udo Erasmus]

Lewislewis, I've found somebody who will agree with you that nuclear power is the way forward. I guess you could call him the IWJ of the Middle East

http://www.telegraaf.nl/multimedia/archive/01295/Ahamdinejad_jpg_1295721b.jpg

[llantwit]

:D
Is that the electoral political version of playground name-calling?!
Ner ner ner, ner ner, ner! Your leader's like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, so there. And you're deputy leader smells like poo.

[Udo Erasmus]

Yeah, it was a bit childish.

But back on track.

I think even if we accept Lewislewis's premises about the economy etc. outweighing the negatives about Nuclear power - which I don't - his argument are spurious

JOBS - NOT UNTIL 2020!

Lewislewis claims this about jobs. But as I understand it (I may be wrong). Wylfa Nuclear Power Station in Anglesey is due to close in 3 years. The new nuclear power station - Wylfa B - won't be built until at least 2020.

So these new jobs that Lewislewis is telling us about are years away. What do the people of Anglesey do in the mean time?

Lewislewis also ignores the major job creating possibilities of renewable energy.

PLAID POLICY MAKES EASIER NEW LABOUR'S NEW PROGRAMME OF NUCLEAR POWER AND RESULTS IN GLOBAL NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION

The Welsh Assembly has resisted the UK government's interest in building new nuclear power stations in Wales. IWJ's u-turn on Nukes represents capitulation. It also facilitates New Labour's plan to embark on a new programme of building nuclear power stations rather than transfering to renewables. Plaid are also encouraging nuclear proliferation, if the UK pushes ahead with it's nuclear programme then how can they argue that other countries in the world don't go nuclear? This increases the danger of another Chernobyl and increased pollution: Radioactive contamination from Sellafield can still be found in the Irish Sea

ELECTRICITY GAP

The closure of Wylfa in 3 years will result in an electricity gap. How to fill the gap? The government want to continue down the nuclear power/nuclear weapons route. But nuclear power is massively expensive and relies on millions of pounds of tax payers money in subsidies. Plaid are closing the door to renewables filling the gap by supporting Wylfa B.

Plaid and New Labour want to spend 10 years building Wylfa B, a new nuke on Anglesey. But we could transfer to renewables much faster and much cheaper. Wylfa currently provides around 30% of Wales' electricity. Existing and proposed offshore and onshore windfarms could generate almost the same amount of electricity in less than 6 years, and tidal lagoons on the severn and Swansea Bay might be able to generate more electricity than Wales needs.

So the choice is between cleaner, cheaper, more environmentally friendly job creating renewables or Plaid and New Labour's expensive, dangerous, unclean, unsustainable, polluting new Nukes.

RESPECT says make Wales a 'global showcase for clean energy' and demonstrate that nuclear power is unnecessary, unsafe, unclean and uneconomic.

PLAID CYMRU? - NO THANKS!

[Udo Erasmus]

Also, I think this isn't IWJ being courageous. I think this is IWJ worried about votes and prepared to jetison principles. He is also gutless, he doesn't give a clear, unequivocal position on Wylfa B., but leaves himself plenty of get out clauses. Presumably, after he is re-elected he might change his mind again depending on the lay of the land

[Gavin Bl]

And the SWP didn't jettison any principles with RESPECT, oh no. No opportunism whatsoever.

[niclas]

And the SWP didn't jettison any principles with RESPECT, oh no. No opportunism whatsoever.


Just catching up with this... IWJ has fucked up good and proper on this. He must be worried about his seat to do this u-turn. No apologies. It stinks. The man must go (and, who knows, he may because I don't see him winning any pro-nuke voters by being a hypocrite but he will lose the anti-nukes, who are a minority on the island but an active pro-Plaid minority).

[llantwit]

Nice analysis there Udo - fair play man. Ta or that.

[mwgdrwg]

IWJ was at my door last night, but ther was only the missus in. I wanted to tell him my views on Nuclear energy! :mad:

[lewislewis]

Lewislewis also ignores the major job creating possibilities of renewable energy.


Try reading my posts, you'd see I support the transition to a nuclear free Wales.

I'm confident Plaid will increase both vote and seats in this election but i'm not sure whether IWJ can continue to lead the party with performances like these, unless there is a major improvement.
It's high time for Adam Price or Leanne Wood to step forward and take the reins. For someone less radical, Helen Mary Jones would also be a superb leader plus the fact she's from England and sounds it would work in our advantage.

[llantwit]

Try reading my posts, you'd see I support the transition to a nuclear free Wales.
But you also support IWJ's decision on the Nukes - Udo's gutted you like the proverbial here. Do you have answers for his last detailed post? About the time lag between the closure of Wylfa 1 and the building of Wylfa 2 (and about his assertion that renewable energy infrastructure could be set up in less time), and about the energy deficit.
Looks very much like dodgy political opportunism from the leader on this one, and it also looks like it might well backfire. He's never been much of leader anyway, though, has he?
Agreed on AP or LW as potentially very exciting leaders - is it likely that reps of the left might get elected? How split is Plaid between left and right, and how big are the factions (just a gut feeling would do - I'm genuinely interested)?
not so sure about scary Mary as leader, though. Never found her particularly inspiring.

[lewislewis]

But you also support IWJ's decision on the Nukes - Udo's gutted you like the proverbial here. Do you have answers for his last detailed post? About the time lag between the closure of Wylfa 1 and the building of Wylfa 2 (and about his assertion that renewable energy infrastructure could be set up in less time), and about the energy deficit.
Looks very much like dodgy political opportunism from the leader on this one, and it also looks like it might well backfire. He's never been much of leader anyway, though, has he?
Agreed on AP or LW as potentially very exciting leaders - is it likely that reps of the left might get elected? How split is Plaid between left and right, and how big are the factions (just a gut feeling would do - I'm genuinely interested)?
not so sure about scary Mary as leader, though. Never found her particularly inspiring.

I don't really know much about the building of wylfa b or the prospects for renewable energy on the island. I imagine there would be a considerable deficit though that would probably be met by sources from outside Wales? The UK government would have to settle this issue, Ynys Mon's MP is Labour so I don't know what line he would take on the issue. The Labour party line is to support a new plant, their MP is probably following that party line. Plaid's party line is against any new plants anywhere in Wales, but IWJ went against it (probably for reasons solely to do with the island and also to try and keep the seat at Assembly level).
I don't think it will backfire for IWJ on Ynys Mon it will in fact generate more support him there. It will however backfire within Plaid. Labour and the Tories both support a new plant but the Lib Dems don 't. If IWJ's opinion was accepted by the party, Plaid would no longer be the most left of the 4 parties in Wales. I'd imagine Plaid's left are foaming at the mouth right now, although we all understand the need to listen to the people of Ynys Mon.

No he hasn't really been much of a leader, in terms of clarity of leadership IWJ has fared well with policy and has demonstrated intelligence, but zero charisma. He has let Morgan off the hook alot in the name of 'co-operation' and having a nice atmosphere in the Assembly. I have only seen IWJ really take Morgan apart once in Assembly debate, over the health service.
However Jones has superb organisational skills and masterminded our campaign in 1999 which was hugely succesful.

I can't see IWJ remaining leader unless there is real success at the ballot box. In terms of 'factions' there really aren't any, but as strands go, the left in south Wales is the most predominant trend within the party. Those who wouldn't consider themselves socialists would fall into the social democratic category. In north Wales the left is less strong because of the mainly rural make-up of those parts of Wales. There isn't any split between these trends and they overlap to a degree where the left-right terminology becomes meaningless. The English-speaking sections tend to be more on the left, but there are also ferocious Welsh-language socialists in Ceredigion and in Gwynedd so...there are also more socially conservative types too.

It is quite likely a leftist would be elected leader. Adam Price is hugely popular with all sections of the party. He would be my favourite choice, I can really see him being an amazing leader of Wales. I really think more people would support us if Adam led the party.
Jill Evans would also be a good party leader, especially if Jane Davidson becomes next Labour leader.

So far, the trend seems to be older, Welsh-first language rural gentlemen : s

That said, i'm going to wait and see how this election goes. I am fairly confident.

[Udo Erasmus]

Where I disagree with Lewislewis is over whether you can be pragmatic over the question of nuclear power. I think it is bad and therefore building a new power station can't be justified under any circumstances, whereas Plaid are against nuclear power except where it might cost them votes.

Plaid's environmental policies have always been rather opportunist. For example, Plaid claim to be pro-Windfarms but whenever they are being built they oppose them on nimbyist grounds. For example, Adam Price has campaigned against windfarms in his constituency. And didn't a Plaid council a couple of years back demolish St. David's Wood to make way for a MoD development.

They argue that if Wales was independent they wouldn't have gone to war with Iraq, but this doesn't stop them supporting Wales participating in British imperialism. You would think as a nationalist party they might argue "Keep Wales out of the "war on terror", and keep the "war on terror" out of Wales. Instead they fully supported the St. Athan's Murder Academy, and none of the left wingers you mentioned spoke out against it - I'm proud to belong to the only party in Wales standing on May 3rd who will include in it's election literature opposition to St. Athan's.

How left wing is Adam Price? He makes some lefty noises, but it was rather cringeworthy to see him drooling over a coalition with New Labour at your spring conference. Maybe, if Plaid had concentrated on putting forward some left wing policies rather than policies that would make them attractive coalition partners for another mainstream party they might not be trailing behind the tories in the polls. It looks likely that the result of the elections in May 3rd will be either a Labour-alone government or a return to a Labour/LibDem coalition with Tories as the main opposition party and Plaid trailing behind.

He has a reputation for being anti-war but he has hardly built a mass, grassroots anti-war movement in his constituency and whenever he talks about Iraq it is primarily about the lies that led to the war rather than being anti-occupation.

Also, I thought that that - in principle - the Plaid leader had to be an Assembly member, so surely neither Jill Evans or IWJ would be elligible?

For a reply on the prospect for renewable energy on Ynys Mon see the Renewable energy thread.

[lewislewis]

Where I disagree with Lewislewis is over whether you can be pragmatic over the question of nuclear power. I think it is bad and therefore building a new power station can't be justified under any circumstances, whereas Plaid are against nuclear power except where it might cost them votes.

Plaid's environmental policies have always been rather opportunist. For example, Plaid claim to be pro-Windfarms but whenever they are being built they oppose them on nimbyist grounds. For example, Adam Price has campaigned against windfarms in his constituency. And didn't a Plaid council a couple of years back demolish St. David's Wood to make way for a MoD development.

They argue that if Wales was independent they wouldn't have gone to war with Iraq, but this doesn't stop them supporting Wales participating in British imperialism. You would think as a nationalist party they might argue "Keep Wales out of the "war on terror", and keep the "war on terror" out of Wales. Instead they fully supported the St. Athan's Murder Academy, and none of the left wingers you mentioned spoke out against it - I'm proud to belong to the only party in Wales standing on May 3rd who will include in it's election literature opposition to St. Athan's.

How left wing is Adam Price? He makes some lefty noises, but it was rather cringeworthy to see him drooling over a coalition with New Labour at your spring conference. Maybe, if Plaid had concentrated on putting forward some left wing policies rather than policies that would make them attractive coalition partners for another mainstream party they might not be trailing behind the tories in the polls. It looks likely that the result of the elections in May 3rd will be either a Labour-alone government or a return to a Labour/LibDem coalition with Tories as the main opposition party and Plaid trailing behind.

He has a reputation for being anti-war but he has hardly built a mass, grassroots anti-war movement in his constituency and whenever he talks about Iraq it is primarily about the lies that led to the war rather than being anti-occupation.

Also, I thought that that - in principle - the Plaid leader had to be an Assembly member, so surely neither Jill Evans or IWJ would be elligible?

For a reply on the prospect for renewable energy on Ynys Mon see the Renewable energy thread.

Yes but Adam or Jill could enter the Assembly later and then take the reins. Maybe Jill Evans will get in in the Rhondda !

Plaid fully opposes the phoney 'war on terror', Plaid has no say whatsoever on St. Athan academy, but as such now it has been put there we would like some good to come out of it for local people.

Windfarms are only viable if they do not damage Wales' countryside and tourist image, offshore wind-farms are great where feasible. And anyway, wind power isn't the greatest contribution that can be made and still requires all sorts of carbon output, tidal lagoons would have a much better potential.
A Plaid council might well have done that, Plaid council's are free to operate independently as part of our decentralist programme.

I think Price stands in the tradition of Welsh politics as a socialist (albeit a reformist one) and a nationalist. He is the most left-wing MP in the House of Commons at present (possibly joint with a number of others). A coalition with Welsh Labour would actually produce good results for the country if terms were met.

Adam Price has contributed to the grassroots, he has appeared on all the marches and has done work in his constituency, but the main importance is holding the government to account so Blair doesn't get away with it. Thanks primarily to Adam Price, Blair may be down for war crimes after he leaves office. We can hope. The SWP exploited grassroots anti-war protest to build their own partisan organisation, something that has had no extra effect or pressure on Blair whatsoever. The sole sum of your grassroots work is a few councillors which Blair knows nothing about, and 1 MP. Compare that to what Adam Price has achieved by supporting the movement at media events and challenging the government in parliament. Price has spoken consistently including at the STWC People's Assembly. Did Rhodri Morgan turn up for that one? Come on Udo give him some slack on this one, Adam Price has been one of the UK's foremost anti-war MP's. We could easily have softened it and supported the war on humanitarian grounds, or supported Afghanistan (or even the first Gulf War) but we never did, we always opposed the war. That's why AP has that reputation, it is well-earned. Journalists in Westminster see Adam Price as the leading anti-war MP, not George Galloway.

[Udo Erasmus]

Galloway has a far higher profile than Adam Price as an anti-war politician in Wales, in the UK & Internationally. He has his faults, but unlike Adam Price he talks about Iraq now rather than the lies 4 years ago, calls for an end to the occupation and is prepared to support the right of people in Iraq, Lebanon and Palestine to resist occupation.

You are incorrect to say Plaid-Nuclear opposed the Afghan War. Actually the Leader of Plaid in the House of Commons said he was prepared to support some form of military action against Afghanistan:


I think if there is firm evidence about who perpetrated these crimes and groups can be pinpointed without any risk of killing innocent people, then I can fully understand the need to attack.

Any retaliation action would be carried out by the US and NATO.

And whatever military action will be taken will have to be proportionate.



This was very different to the unequivocal position take by the Welsh Socialist Alliance that I was then (and probably Niclas) was a member of who took a position against ANY military action around 2 days after September 11.
I remember, members of the SWP in Wales continually contacting AMs like Helen Mary Jones and others saying you have to get Plaid to oppose the war.

Plaid-Nuclear also wobbled over calling for troops out of Iraq (fortunately socialists in Wales didn't and were able to eventually get them on board) and still have illusions that a UN occupation could be the solution. In 2004, Jill Evans was pushing the "I was against the war, but now we are there, we can't just walk away" line in Heddwch.

To be fair (and I wasn't being entirely fair on Mr. Price previously_ Adam Price IS one of the more well known anti-war politicians in the UK, and has done some good work. As MPs go, he is better than most. But being saying you would be prepared to be in a coalition with the Tories would suggest that you are not a socialist - Nye Bevan would be spinning in his grave!

Your comments about the SWP are erroneous. At the grassroots level, the SWP and the revolutinary left in general were far more active in building opposition to the war than Plaid-Nuclear, Plaid-Nuclear may come and speak at the demo's but that's all they do, it is the revolutionary left who do all the donkey work getting people to them, putting up the posters, doing the stalls . Ask Llantwit who used to do regular stalls in Cardiff Queen Street around 2002-2003 to engage with the public over Iraq, and was active in the StWC at that time, how many Plaid-Nuclear activists helped do stalls, flyposting, organise meetings and activities etc. and he can tell you as well as I can - like all the other mainstream parties who are election machines - they didn't do shit. Because mainstream politicians don't like mass, grassroots movements. Their philosophy is "elect me, know your place, and I will do it for you".

I'm sure, that in the process of building a broad anti-war movement including working with activists and elected representatives of Plaid-Nuclear, the SWP had some interest in building their own alternative to New Labour. But are you telling me that Plaid-Nuclear haven't themselves sought to cynically cash-in on the antiwar movement?

If you seriously think that when Blair steps down he is going to be in the dock for war crimes, you are naive. Though I think one thing we CAN agree on, is that he should be.

PS. Out of sitting AMs who do you think would be the best leader? I would say Leanne Wood is the best of the bunch. Bethan Jenkins (almost certain to be an AM) also is one of the best of the Plaid-Nuclear crop. But why have a leader?

[lewislewis]

You're one of the few anti-war activists that will just constantly try and pick holes in Plaid's best MP, even though he has been hounding the government constantly, you just say it's not good enough or it's irrelevant because it's not done to your particular formula. Why can't you just support him for once?

The Tory coalition stuff is childish. Price said we would talk to anyone, he didn't say a coalition with the Tories was going to happen. I think for you to hold that grudge against the Tories is stupid, we all know full well what the conservatives have done when in power but even Paisley and Adams can work together now. As if it's going to happen anyway! This is the Conservative & Unionist Party we're talking about. Their AM's support more powers for the Assembly but their London HQ prevents them from taking up that call.

You're right to put that quote from Elfyn Llwyd, of course if the 9/11 attackers could be pinpointed and killed what would be the problem? I wouldn't lose any sleep. The fact is they obviously couldn't, and Elfyn Llwyd opposed the war in Afghanistan.
You have far riper enemies in the Welsh Labour party to be fighting against. Not that it matters because nobody in Wales likes Respect.

[Udo Erasmus]

You're one of the few anti-war activists that will just constantly try and pick holes in Plaid's best MP, even though he has been hounding the government constantly, you just say it's not good enough or it's irrelevant because it's not done to your particular formula. Why can't you just support him for once?

The Tory coalition stuff is childish. Price said we would talk to anyone, he didn't say a coalition with the Tories was going to happen. I think for you to hold that grudge against the Tories is stupid, we all know full well what the conservatives have done when in power but even Paisley and Adams can work together now. As if it's going to happen anyway! This is the Conservative & Unionist Party we're talking about. Their AM's support more powers for the Assembly but their London HQ prevents them from taking up that call.

You're right to put that quote from Elfyn Llwyd, of course if the 9/11 attackers could be pinpointed and killed what would be the problem? I wouldn't lose any sleep. The fact is they obviously couldn't, and Elfyn Llwyd opposed the war in Afghanistan.
You have far riper enemies in the Welsh Labour party to be fighting against. Not that it matters because nobody in Wales likes Respect.

Lewislewis, some of my comments on Adam Price were a little unfair. Sure, he has done some good work - I don't think this makes him immune from criticism. He is a good speaker, he is probably the only Plaid Cymru politician who has a profile outside of Wales in the UK. I should also note that despite my criticisms of Plaid on these boards (99% of readers of these boards are left wing activists), out of cyberspace in the real world I have worked constructively in several campaigns with members of Plaid several of whom I personally quite like and think are sincere even if I think their ideology sucks and doesn't do it for me.

You mention that Sinn Fein and the DUP can work together. The reason why is because both parties are neoliberal parties. Sinn Fein has been happy to support neoliberal attacks on education, workers rights etc.

I have no problem with Plaid forming a coalition with the Tories, Labour or the LibDems - I'm not a supporter so it makes no difference. However, if you argue that Plaid is a socialist party or an alternative to the other parties, the fact that they want to form administrations with organisations that are opposed to the interests of the working majority in society undermines that claim.

If you support neoliberalism then these kind of coalitions make sense. To me as I see the 4 parties in Wales as representing a debate on how to manage the system rather than change or (my preferred option) break with the system then I would argue a left wing party couldn't make a coalition with any other party. This wouldn't rule out joint campaigns or actions with Respect/Left-Plaid & Left-Labour activists around limited concrete goals of course.

Finally, the trouble with Llwyd is that if you want to stop a war saying you support limited military action isn't a good way of building up pressure from the grassroots on the elites. It is rather intellectually stupid. I don't think that Bin Laden being pinpointed and killed was on the cards, if Llwyd thought it was then he is stupid. It is a simple fact, that Plaid were incredibly slow to come out against the war on terror.

Actually, I wouldn't support any military action against Afghanistan. People always used to say during the Iraq/Afghan War's "but what should We do, what should We do". Well given the record of British and American imperialism I think neither country has the moral right to be the global policeman and who the hell is this "We"?

Incidentally, I don't defend Bin Laden's murder of 3,000 people but he could have argued that he was only engaging (a la Llwyd) in limited military action against America. I recall when campaigning against the Afghanistan war being asked, "Surely, Bin Laden has to be brought to justice" and I replied, "Yes, he should stand trial, but in terms of the deaths they have been responsible for, of course Henry Kisssinger, Nixon, Sharon & Pinochet would have to be tried well before him, and this war isn't about Bin Laden anyway it's about US hegemony in the world"

Anyway, all the best LL & Fraternal Regards

[Udo Erasmus]

One thing that does surprise me, is how little criticism there has been of the Plaid leader from environmental groups. When Rhodri made his comments on climate change they all issued press releases.

[Dic Penderyn]

Most likely never noticed, or didn't think it newsworthy. One was in power the other unlikely to be any time soon.

Also Rhodri's comments on climate change were somewhat unusual at the moment, whilst 'Politican supports nuclear power' is a somewhat common event at present.

[lewislewis]

One thing that does surprise me, is how little criticism there has been of the Plaid leader from environmental groups. When Rhodri made his comments on climate change they all issued press releases.

Rhodri Morgan is the First Minister of Wales, IWJ isn't, and remember he only said he'd support it 'if certain conditions were met'.

We'll see what the electorate says.

(and also, Dic Penderyn's post that they didn't notice is probably spot on as well)