ASBOs and the police + drugs update

[RushcroftRoader]

A central plank of the No Deal Initiative was to give repeat drug offenders a post conviction ASBO to stop them loitering on the streets of central Brixton selling their shit.
It turns out that the local magistrate courts have been exceedingly reluctant to grant these ASBOs despite repeated pleading from the police and residents' groups.
The courts point out that these type of ASBOs to exclude trouble makers/dealers from trouble hotspots are usually given out by the council. So despite the police doing their job, arresting the persistent dealers and bringing them before the court, our wonderful magistrates are sending them straight back onto the streets.
A senior police officer at Brixton police station told me that they have arrested one aggressive begger/crack user a total of 39 times, only for the court to free him.
To make matters infinitely worse, Lambeth Council does not have an antisocial behaviour unit!! This means there is no council legal team to assess areas that are plagued by dealers, people shitting on the street etc and to take action.
A unit is in the process of being set up but unless residents stay on the case, you can imagine how long this formation process might take! Until the unit has been set up, the council will not be able to issue any ASBOs to repeat offenders who are determined to make Brixton town center a "no go" area for anybody not looking for crack.

Also, several Brixton bobbies were wisked away on terrorist duty during August which has seen a predictable rise in the amount of dealing in central Brixton.
However the same policeman told me that the problem with dealing by the bus stops outside Barclays was very hard to solve as most of the time the perps with actually selling tea leaves.

[poster342002]

If this is all true, then it is an utter, utter scandal. WHY are magistrates and the council behaving in this way?

[Brixton Hatter]

Cheers for the update RushcroftRoader.

ASBOs - whether you like them or not - were specifically designed by the Government for situations like this...and they are being used to good effect in various places across the country...but the take-up is pretty low so far.

It's astonishing that the police and council appear unable to work together on this issue - in fact, it's a fucking scandal. I'm certainly no supporter of this Government, but how can you blame them when they provide the tools to deal with these problems, and the council don't use them? We've got a brand new Labour administration in Lambeth who should be all over this with the maniac enthusiasm of yer typical young Blairite stooges.

A well-placed letter to your MP and a call to the South London Press might be interesting...

[Brixton Hatter]

However the same policeman told me that the problem with dealing by the bus stops outside Barclays was very hard to solve as most of the time the perps with actually selling tea leaves.Unless the law has changed recently, I'm pretty sure that if you're offering for sale something purporting to be a drug, you can actually get arrested/charged for that offence, even if it is tea leaves/mixed herbs or whatever. Perhaps Detective Boy can confirm....?

The story I've heard is that uniform are not supposed to get involved in drugs, since that's the job of the drugs squad. I met a guy a couple of years back who worked in Brixton Drugs Squad. He said there was only three of them :eek: (though this may have changed by now..) and that their main job was closing down crack houses - they didn't have time for yer average weed dealer.

Most of us who are in Brixton regularly must have seen the not-uncommon sight of a copper standing outside Woolies, well within earshot of the skunkskunkskunk dealers, but totally ignoring them. :confused:

[poster342002]

Whatever their selling, if they don't have a street vendors licence (or whatever is needed to sell goods in the street), surely they could be prosecuted for that - and given an ASBO preventing them doing it anymore (if need be, actually banning them from saying the words "skunk" or "weed" and from whistling?).

[phildwyer]

I assume this is a disaster for property values?

[Brixton Hatter]

You assume wrong.

[poster342002]

It's got nothing to do with property values. In fact, if anything, this sort of crap attracts enough of the middleclass nu-yuppies who find this all so "tewwibly exciting!"and push up the prices - thus pricing existing Brixtoners out of the market.

[phildwyer]

In fact, if anything, this sort of crap attracts enough of the middleclass nu-yuppies who find this all so "tewwibly exciting!"and push up the prices - thus pricing existing Brixtoners out of the market.

Well then that probably explains why little action is being taken. No doubt the property owners of Brixton are campaigning to keep drug dealers on the streets, in order to keep house prices high.

[tarannau]

It's got nothing to do with property values. In fact, if anything, this sort of crap attracts enough of the middleclass nu-yuppies who find this all so "tewwibly exciting!"and push up the prices - thus pricing existing Brixtoners out of the market.


FFS Poster, has there ever been a time in the last 50 years when puff hasn't been on sale on the streets of Brixton? And is there ever a time when you give the arch-miserabilist tosh and tired 'nu-yuppy' shit a rest for once?

I didn't think it 'tewwibly exciting' to buy drugs of the streets back then, just as I don't now. Rose-tinted spectacles are one thing, but you seem to permanently look at life through near hysterical shit-encrusted poo-goggles or something.

It was better back in my day, when these middleclass incomers weren't here and drug dealers were good decent chaps. Yadda, yadda, yadda....

[phildwyer]

FFS Poster, has there ever been a time in the last 50 years when puff hasn't been on sale on the streets of Brixton?

No. Trying to eradicate it will only destroy the neighborhood as we have known it.

[tarannau]

Well then that probably explains why little action is being taken. No doubt the property owners of Brixton are campaigning to keep drug dealers on the streets, in order to keep house prices high.


Another winning constructive and entirely positive contribution from Dwyer? Or perhaps it's the usual load of shit-stirring faux-controversial pile of facetious steaming horseshit.

Worra surprise eh. Cock...

:rolleyes:

[phildwyer]

Another winning constructive and entirely positive contribution from Dwyer? Or perhaps it's the usual load of shit-stirring faux-controversial pile of facetious steaming horseshit.

Worra surprise eh. Cock...

:rolleyes:

It wasn't me who suggested that dealers on the streets kept house prices high, you stupid wanker.

[boozybirdie]

However the same policeman told me that the problem with dealing by the bus stops outside Barclays was very hard to solve as most of the time the perps with actually selling tea leaves.

Surely it is at least an offence under the trade description act ;)

[phildwyer]

It's got nothing to do with property values. In fact, if anything, this sort of crap attracts enough of the middleclass nu-yuppies who find this all so "tewwibly exciting!"and push up the prices - thus pricing existing Brixtoners out of the market.

Here is the post in which the suggestion that dealers on the street keep house prices high was made. Obviously that suggestion is absurd. My post was quite clearly intended to highlight that absurdity. So Tarannau now looks foolish and like a twat.

[tarannau]

It wasn't me who suggested that dealers on the streets kept house prices high, you stupid wanker.

Yes, that's right; you honestly believed Poster342002's assertion that the odd bod on the high street shouting 'skunk' on the high street attracts 'middleclass yuppies' and pushes up property values. It's exactly how Kensington and Chelsea became prosperous isn't it - it was the yelling weed dealers wot brought the area up.

:rolleyes:

Here's a fucking clue Phil: you're not half as smart as you think you are. I've had enough of your stupid windup games, lies and unerring ability to sidetrack otherwise decent threads with your usual contributions of shit stirring nonsense masquerading as honestly held opinion. It's more than a bit tiresome.

Either you're as perceptive as a dead maggot, or you're trolling for effect. Either way and I wish you fuck off this thread and go on the wind-up elsewhere.

EDITED TO ADD: So it was a wind-up then Phil. Marvellous work again, you arsebiscuit.

[timothysutton1]

...has there ever been a time in the last 50 years when puff hasn't been on sale on the streets of Brixton?....

I moved to Brixton over 20 years ago and yes, drugs were on sale, but not the blatant street selling that goes on now.

Personally I blame Paddock and his ridiculous 'experiment'.

Go to any community group in Brixton and you will hear the same thing, it's getting out of control and residents do not feel safe.

[phildwyer]

EDITED TO ADD: So it was a wind-up then Phil. Marvellous work again, you arsebiscuit.

It wasn't a "wind-up" you thick fucking moron, it was *irony.* Designed to reveal the inherent absurdity of the position previously espoused. Everyone understood this except you. Because you are stupid. And a twat.

[Streathamite]

I moved to Brixton over 20 years ago and yes, drugs were on sale, but not the blatant street selling that goes on now.

Personally I blame Paddock and his ridiculous 'experiment'.

Go to any community group in Brixton and you will hear the same thing, it's getting out of control and residents do not feel safe.
wrong target. I lived in brixton before paddick became borough cdr. if anything, the street dealing was WORSE then. this was mid-late 90s.

[phildwyer]

wrong target. I lived in brixton before paddick became borough cdr. if anything, the street dealing was WORSE then. this was mid-late 90s.

Yes indeed. And it was *far* worse in the 80's than it was in the 90's.

[FridgeMagnet]

Kindly cut it out with the personal abuse.

Incidentally, you can be done for selling fake drugs - "deception" I think.

[bluestreak]

Rose-tinted spectacles are one thing, but you seem to permanently look at life through near hysterical shit-encrusted poo-goggles or something.

i agree with what you say tarannau, i just wanted to quote my favourite post of the day again.

[phildwyer]

Incidentally, you can be done for selling fake drugs - "deception" I think.

Yes, its "fraud" in the States. In NYC the cops had a campaign *specifically* against rip-off artists. They reckoned it was more harmful than selling real drugs, on account of the customers coming back strapped all the time.

[tarannau]

With respect Timothy, are you honestly claiming that you couldn't openly buy drugs down the front line 20 years ago? Hell, you could even pop in for a beer, a spliff and a game of pool in many of the houses.

The guys may be more noticeable on the high street now, but the centre of Brixton has also changed in many ways. It's more than fair to say that just as many drugs were on the street back then, smoked as openly and sold by just as many folks.

Community groups aren't exactly the best way to gauge a representative sample of local opinion by the way. Not much of the community actually engages with many of the community 'leaders' ime.

[phildwyer]

It's more than fair to say that just as many drugs were on the street back then, smoked as openly and sold by just as many folks.

There were *many* more drugs on the streets of Brixton twenty years ago than there are today. The truth is that the law'n'order nuts are getting their way by stealth. In five years time there won't be anyone selling on the street at all.

[poster342002]

In five years time there won't be anyone selling on the street at all.
Awwwww boo-hoo.

Not likely to happen anyway unless they legalise Amsterdam-style coffeeshops (which I think is the sensible option - watch most of the customers desert the whole drugs scene in a shot once the seediness/'webeliousness' factor is removed).

[timothysutton1]

...are you honestly claiming that you couldn't openly buy drugs down the front line 20 years ago?...

No, I'm not claiming that. Yes you could buy drugs in Railton Road, but from my memory they were not selling "skunk, weed, skunk, weed" on the High Street, Effra Road, outside the Ritzy, Effra Road, Tulse Hill Parade, Brixon Hill, etc. etc. etc.

[poster342002]

No, I'm not claiming that. Yes you could buy drugs in Railton Road, but from my memory they were not selling "skunk, weed, skunk, weed" on the High Street, Effra Road, outside the Ritzy, Effra Road, Tulse Hill Parade, Brixon Hill, etc. etc. etc.
And that's the crucial point; it wasn't in your face all the sodding time like it suddenly seemed to be from around 1999 onwards.

[RushcroftRoader]

Eh guys,
While I hate to interupt the flow of abuse on all sides, I actually started this thread to highlight a few interesting facts about the current situation and to alert people to the fact that the council needs to pull its finger out on setting up its antisocial behaviour unit.
Can you muppets take your bitch fight somewhere else? Thanks very much.

[poster342002]

Eh guys,
While I hate to interupt the flow of abuse on all sides, I actually started this thread to highlight a few interesting facts about the current situation and to alert people to the fact that the council needs to pull its finger out on setting up its antisocial behaviour unit.
Can you muppets take your bitch fight somewhere else? Thanks very much.
Well, I'll take it back to the question I asked: why are the council and magistrates behaving in this manner?

[timothysutton1]

...take your bitch fight somewhere else...

I have forwarded your initial message onto my three ward councillors and Kate Newham (Lambeth Safety Officer). If I get a reply I will let you know.

[lang rabbie]

Because almost all of Lambeth Council's ASBO activity has been in the housing department and concentrated on dealing with "neighbours from hell" tenant families on estates in the past???

[tarannau]

And that's the crucial point; it wasn't in your face all the sodding time like it suddenly seemed to be from around 1999 onwards.

What is in your face? People saying 'skunk? and offering you something. It's hardly the crime of the century, not the greatest inconvenience to say no,

I've got more fond memories of 'old Brixton' than most, but I can guarantee that some folks had far more pressing issues than the odd bloke vending something in the street. We had illegal shebeens, shitty crumbling housing stock, vast overcrowding, BNP presence on our doorstep, a constant fear of violence and harrassment (both from the police and locals), a sense that nothing would change.

And yet you're really going to make someone saying a word to you into such a big issue, as if it's really significant of Brixton going downhill in some way. Can't you just consider the idea that it may just be your expectations of Brixton changing, or something about your stage of life?

Yes, street dealers are a pain in the arse sometimes, but they're hardly significant in my book. For all the guff written about Brixton I'm still hugely proud of the area and where I grew up - it's not perfect by any means, but I find it difficult to deny that real progress has been made.

[tarannau]

Well, I'll take it back to the question I asked: why are the council and magistrates behaving in this manner?

My experience of magistrates is that they tend to be officious busybodies. I don't believe they would have much sympathy with drug dealers.

The council's lack of action is perhaps more mystifying. But it's worth noting that ASBO'ing the street crews, many of whom are longterm local residents, is far from without its problems.

I suspect any ASBOs would tend to be targeted at the more stable and harmless old timers, not the more verbal 'yardie' style folks who tend to flit in and out of an area.

[RushcroftRoader]

I suspect any ASBOs would tend to be targeted at the more stable and harmless old timers, not the more verbal 'yardie' style folks who tend to flit in and out of an area.

How come? The old timers are harmless. I hesitate to assume the council has even a modicum of common sense, but surely they can deferentiate?
Anyhow, if they get the guy who was walking up Rushcroft Road with a metal pole in his hand last night, then that would be a good start!

[phildwyer]

My experience of magistrates is that they tend to be officious busybodies. I don't believe they would have much sympathy with drug dealers.

You shouldn't generalize about magistrates. Many of them are drawn from the Labour Party and/or union movement, and many are *deeply* suspicious of the police. Especially in Brixton, I'd imagine that many magistrates have more sympathy with the dealers than with the cops.

[Donna Ferentes]

Your last sentence, I would suggest
Is less convincing than the rest.

[phildwyer]

What is in your face? People saying 'skunk? and offering you something. It's hardly the crime of the century, not the greatest inconvenience to say no

It won't be popular but it needs to be said: if you have a problem with people saying "skunk" to you on the street, you should get the fuck out of Brixton. End of.

[phildwyer]

Your last sentence, I would suggest
Is less convincing than the rest.

An inner-city magistrate
Is not a lackey of the state.

[Donna Ferentes]

It won't be popular but it needs to be said: if you have a problem with people saying "skunk" to you on the street, you should get the fuck out of Brixton. End of.
Perhaps, Phil, but who really needs
To keep on hearing it - "skunk weed"?
It never really bothered me -
I wouldn't smoke if it were free.
But when these chaps are all around
It tends to bring a district down
I don't mean price of property -
The cost of housing made me leave.
If it should fall, then I'd say "tough" -
It couldn't drop down far enough.
I mean aggression, and the crime
That hangs around them. All the time.

[tarannau]

TBH, my experience suggests that the police are hesitant at taking on some of the more (ahem) frightening looking youngsters in the public spaces, tending to stop more of the more restful looking folks and more isolated individuals. I don't see how the involvement of the council will really change that

For example, I've seen three police stopping my middle aged neighbour by the Ritzy because of a 'suspicious' interaction and treating him pretty badly. Meanwhile the far more chupsty and ostensibly threatening 'skunk, skunk' faces were just nearby, playing football and generally taking the mick. Unless there's real police commitment and courage to getting to the right people effectively and consistently the sentence doesn't really matter imo, whether it be an ASBO or the clink. The worry is that the ASBOs get the soft and more vulnerable targets, not change the pattern of behaviour amongst the committed crims.

[Donna Ferentes]

An inner-city magistrate
Is not a lackey of the state.
That's so. But I don't think they like the dealers
Just because they're not fans of the peelers.

[poster342002]

It won't be popular but it needs to be said: if you have a problem with people saying "skunk" to you on the street, you should get the fuck out of Brixton. End of.
What, even those of us who were here BEFORE the "skunk" mumblers were here?

[RushcroftRoader]

Perhaps, Phil, but who really needs
To keep on hearing it - "skunk weed"?
It never really bothered me -
I wouldn't smoke if it were free.
But when these chaps are all around
It tends to bring a district down
I don't mean price of property -
The cost of housing made me leave.
If it should fall, then I'd say "tough" -
It couldn't drop down far enough.
I mean aggression, and the crime
That hangs around them. All the time.

brilliant :D :D

[tarannau]

You shouldn't generalize about magistrates. Many of them are drawn from the Labour Party and/or union movement, and many are *deeply* suspicious of the police. Especially in Brixton, I'd imagine that many magistrates have more sympathy with the dealers than with the cops.

I can only generalise about the two in the area that I know who have volunteered themselves for the role and have done seemingly well for themselves. I admire their commitment, but they're both green and naive. I remember, grimly, one of them talking about the training they received on drugs. Apparently they were led to believe that dealers tended to suck in unsuspecting punters - one second they'd be buying a bit of weed or a pill for the evening, the next and their dealer would be offering them a (I shit you not) a 'goodie bag' containing weed, smack and crack etc to suck them in.

It was the gateway theory gone mad. It's disturbing that people are still teaching stuff like this, let alone believing it and reciting it back.


:(

[OpalFruit]

To keep our streets
Drug dealer free
Tell the punters
It's dried tea!

[tarannau]

What, even those of us who were here BEFORE the "skunk" mumblers were here?

Are you still going on about the 'skunk' thing? What did you moan about before that - hell, there were plenty of things to get your goat back then.

Wouldn't you agree that Brixton has improved massively for the majority of its tenants over the past 20 years?

:confused:

[RushcroftRoader]

To keep our streets
Drug dealer free
Tell the punters
It's dried tea!

lol, thats terrible!
:p

[fortyplus]

No, I'm not claiming that. Yes you could buy drugs in Railton Road, but from my memory they were not selling "skunk, weed, skunk, weed" on the High Street, Effra Road, outside the Ritzy, Effra Road, Tulse Hill Parade, Brixon Hill, etc. etc. etc.

No, back then it was "black aash, sensi, black aash, sensi"

Just as blatant.

[Dan U]

i got cuddled by a crack dealer on sunday morning cos i suggested he was rubbish as when i wldnt buy drugs off him he tried to 'borrow' £2.

i think my words at the end were 'its a problem, but not my problem'

if only they would cuddle more and hustle less, brixton would be a better place.

:D

[hendo]

Perhaps, Phil, but who really needs
To keep on hearing it - "skunk weed"?
It never really bothered me -
I wouldn't smoke if it were free.
But when these chaps are all around
It tends to bring a district down
I don't mean price of property -
The cost of housing made me leave.
If it should fall, then I'd say "tough" -
It couldn't drop down far enough.
I mean aggression, and the crime
That hangs around them. All the time.

If there were a Post of the Month contest this would be the winner.

[Donna Ferentes]

Oh, I don't know
It reads just like the doggerel
That gets into the local press:
Letters in verse that don't express
That much: in fact, mean bugger all
And barely rhyme. And never flow.

[dogmatique]

Seconded. I'm so glad Donna still posts from Spain...

[Mrs Magpie]

It won't be popular but it needs to be said: if you have a problem with people saying "skunk" to you on the street, you should get the fuck out of Brixton. End of.
So when my son gets hassle from dealers in his face offering him drugs (which has happened since he was 12, waiting by the bus stop and offered 'powder, brown') he is somehow the problem and he should leave the town he was born in because he finds it intimidating? You have no idea how offensive I find you. You don't even live in Brixton, and neither do most of the dealers who get arrested.

[Mrs Magpie]

No, back then it was "black aash, sensi, black aash, sensi"

Just as blatant.No it wasn't. I've lived here a very long time, brought up three kids here and have six grandchildren. Yes there were drugs, but it was low-key and non-aggressive. Three years ago I had real problems with guys inside my garden and on my front doorstep selling weed and being generally intimidating. They finally pissed off when I hung out of the window with an SLR and took loads of pictures (actually there was no film in the camera but they didn't know that). There was a bit of fall-out but not that much, mostly idle threats, and the regime of playing Schubert Leider helped a lot too.

[Giles]

Lots of people like to consume recreationals, me included.

But no-one, wherever they live and whatever they privately do drugwise, likes in-your-face, slightly menacing, annoying street dealers.

Apart from no-idea tourists and the truly fucked up.

There is no need for them, people should buy (and sell) their bits and bobs with a bit more discretion, not in the face of every passing schoolkid and ordinary people who DON'T WANT THE FUCKING HASSLE. A friend of mine lives in Brixton (well, Loughborough Junction) and she gets sick of it, especially that her daughter sees it all the time, and will shortly be old enough to be hassled and offered shit when on her own.

Giles..

[memespring]

There's a move to setup a safer neighbourhoods style panel for brixton town center at the moment that could help sort some of out these problems and make sure there is a decent dialog between the police and locals (e.g. guns outside tube stations). But *really* it needs some support.

A couple of months ago the Brixton Town Centre Forum sent a group of residents and traders away to try and set up something like this (myself included). We came up with a plan that would have had 3 residents (representing residents) and 3 traders (etc) reporting to the town center and buisiness forums respectivly, and making sure as much info as possible was made avalable to everyone.

But when it came to setting it up there was a major lack of volunteers and all those who do were very white and very male, which isnt exactly what you want for a comunity policing panel. As a result (rightly IMO) it was shelved.

To their merit the police and council seem to have taken this onbord and have setup public meeting next monday to try again, and have had an attempt at some publicity.

If anyone is interested it's at 7pm on the 11th at the Town Hall in room 125 (nipslas birthday, so im not very popular).

Sorry if this soundly like a winge, but the problem doesnt come down to policing levels and the use of ASBOs alone. IMO the crime problems in brixton arent simple and the only way of begining to sort them out is large scale community involvement. <rant over>

[Mrs Magpie]

very white and very malethey've more spare time, innit?

[memespring]

they've more spare time, innit?

Funny you should say that - I went to an edemocracy conference in Bristol earlier In the year (I know im sad) and there was someone from one of the polling companies talking (from brixton hill randomly).

According to her the demographic for community actavists was white and male (generally middle class too, although that didnt apply particuarly to the meeting in question) because of time and motivation.

Encouragingly though this seems to be changing because of the use of the internet, in that it lowers (for those who have access) the barriers to cimmunity involvement. As an example there was a guy who runs a huge online community project in Birmingham (equaly randomly his partner was from Brixton) who had figures for this.

Edit: although thinking abut it, im not too sure how much this applys to brixton. Most meetings ive been to are fairly representative in terms of sex and race.

[fortyplus]

and the regime of playing Schubert Leider helped a lot too.:D :D
definitely preferable to Barry Manilow...

It was certainly blatant in the 80s, but probably more concentrated along Coldharbour Lane/by the old Atlantic; I don't think today's street dealers are any more in your face as they were then. Or maybe it's just that they don't harrass me any more.
But I agree, it may well be more widespread and the kind of localised nuisance you describe moves around to wherever it can get away with it. Landor Road has had its ups and downs over the years...

[Donna Ferentes]

Lots of people like to consume recreationals, me included.It's odd - I've read so many posts from you
About the law, and what it means to you
You like the thought of jail, for people who transgress
Prisons, and sentences - you'd vote for more, not less.
Yet you yourself have quite a different code:
You break the law on drugs (and on the road).
So let's be clear - what we're seeing here
Is what the well-off always think is fair
Impunity for those who get deliveries to their door
And crackdowns for the people who use the street to score.

[Giles]

It's odd - I've read so many post from you
About the law, and what it means to you
You like the thought of jail, for people who transgress
Prisons, and sentences - you'd vote for more, not less.
Yet you yourself have quite a different code:
You break the law on drugs (and on the road).
So let's be clear - what we're seeing here
Is what the well-off always think is fair
Impunity for those who get deliveries to their door
And crackdowns for the people who use the street to score.

I'm just pointing out, there is no need for aggressive street dealing. It annoys people who want nothing to do with it, it makes people feel unsafe, and drags an area down.

Why do you have to see this as a rich v poor thing?

Its not. I am just pointing out that there are far more "socially acceptable" and less annoying ways for those who want to, to buy and sell their drugs, without fucking off just about everyone else.

Giles..

[Donna Ferentes]

Why do you have to see this as a rich v poor thing? Why rich v poor? Because it's how you view it.
When there are people that you find suspicious
Your attitudes towards them are quite vicious.
But you - you want the cops to leave you to it.
Either it is a moral issue, or it's not -
Crime's crime, and though there are gradations
We're still discussing the same situation.
You're breaking laws, just like the other lot.
And what makes that impossible to see
Is habit - the well-off always think
That they're not like the rest. Call it a class instinct
Or what you like. It's still hypocrisy.

[Donna Ferentes]

I'll speak again, perhaps. What I'm saying is this
You're keen on law 'n' order, where others are concerned
And yet you break the law yourself. It's a hard point to miss.
So here's, perhaps, the lesson to be learned
When talking about criminals - you're one. Adopt another voice.
Stop screaming "get them" all the time. Stop invoking choice.

[Giles]

Why rich v poor? Because it's how you view it.
When there are people that you find suspicious
Your attitudes towards them are quite vicious.
But you - you want the cops to leave you to it.
Either it is a moral issue, or it's not -
Crime's crime, and though there are gradations
We're still discussing the same situation.
You're breaking laws, just like the other lot.
And what makes that impossible to see
Is habit - the well-off always think
That they're not like the rest. Call it a class instinct
Or what you like. It's still hypocrisy.

In my ideal world, you would be able to walk into your local drugs shop, and buy what you want over the counter, with no looking over your shoulder for cops, or worrying about being done for possession. That's always been my view, which I have stated on here often enough.

But I still find aggressive street dealing annoying and I can see that to some people, it can be scary. Even given the current illegality of drugs, there are nicer and less objectionable ways of going about it. That's all I am saying.

Giles..

[tarannau]

With the greatest of respect Giles, whatever changes future legislation may hold, folks dealing on the street are unlikely to suddenly find the capital to open a weed vending shop or cafe.

'Aggressive' weed dealing seems a bit of an exaggeration to say the least. OK. so the whistling may be annoying, as is the sheer repetitiveness of the 'skunk' gabble, but they're hardly chasing folks down the road thrusting big buds of puff into unsuspecting punters' faces and shouting 'g'wan, g'wan, you know you want some' like a yardie version of Mrs Doyle.

Perhaps it's the British reserve, but it's not really that hard to say 'no' and walk away ime. Some folks seem to talk about Brixton like it's Delhi - not even close, but it's always had banter and bustle on the streets.

[tippee]

I assume this is a disaster for property values?


Twat.

It's a disaster for people waiting for a bus.

[poster342002]

Wouldn't you agree that Brixton has improved massively for the majority of its tenants over the past 20 years?

:confused:
In some ways, yes, in others, no.

[Donna Ferentes]

It's a disaster for people waiting for a bus.Disaster? No. An inconvenience. A pain.
Try and avoid hyperbole in what you say.

[poster342002]

It's a disaster for people waiting for a bus.
EXACTLY. You can't get near the bus stops just outside woolworths and iceland at times unless your either, a; a drug buyer or b; a drug dealer.

[Donna Ferentes]

That's not entirely true -
There's usually a queue.

[poster342002]

That's not entirely true -
There's usually a queue.
Yeah - outside the shelters in the sodding rain because the shelters are occupied by drug dealers.

[Donna Ferentes]

If so you state
Then you exaggerate.

[poster342002]

It is not an exaggeration, as you well know. Stop defending the indefensible and denying the undeniable.

[tippee]

Disaster? No. An inconvenience. A pain.
Try and avoid hyperbole in what you say.

OK Miss. Sorry I haven't got my homework today, I left it on the bus...

[Donna Ferentes]

It is not an exaggeration, as you well know. Stop defending the indefensible and denying the undeniable.
In all my time in Brixton - indeed, I was just there
I never saw any such sight. Hyperbole, I fear.

[poster342002]

In all my time in Brixton - indeed, I was just there
I never saw any such sight. Hyperbole, I fear.
Walk past it with your eyes closed, then, did you?

[tarannau]

EXACTLY. You can't get near the bus stops just outside woolworths and iceland at times unless your either, a; a drug buyer or b; a drug dealer.

Oh, grow up and get a grip. I get the feeling that you don't catch the bus all that often Poster. I can always get near the bus stops, hell I even catch buses there from there on a regular basis. Judging by the crowds around the buses, I'm not the only one.

Being slightly less facetious (and it's difficult given the hysterical exagerrations of certain posters) it hasn't been a bus stop where people sit down and queue up in an orderly fashion for many a year. Most people never stood under the shelters anyway, preferring the other sheltered shop doorways and amassing near the stop itself, hoping to get a headstart on the bus bumrush.

Which makes the decision to remove the busstops even more puzzling and irrelevant. They've only deprived a few folks from seats whilst doing nothing to cut out the opportunities for dealers.

[Mrs Magpie]

That's one thing that's really improved in the quarter century ( :eek: ) that I've lived here....loads more buses, loads more routes.

[tarannau]

It's a shame that Streatham High Road hasn't developed to keep up with all those new buses. I'm sure I remember the days when a trip on the 118 to Streatham Vale from Brixton didn't entail such a glacially slow journey. Give it a couple more years and I'll need to take a portaloo, some sarnies and a sleeping bag before I can face undertaking such a mission.

[TopCat]

ASBO's really are an offence against any sort of democracy.

I have been buying weed in Brixton for 25 years and the dealing was more prevalent then rather than now.

I still for the life of me can't see why a few incomers are so concerned and threatend by a few fellas saying "skunk" when they walk past.

[poster342002]

I still for the life of me can't see why a few incomers are so concerned and threatend by a few fellas saying "skunk" when they walk past.
For the Umpdred-and-Umpety-Umpth time, it's NOT just incomers who are fed up with it. Many of us have lived here as long or longer than yourself and thoroughly pissed off with it and have gone into the reasons why over and over again - see posts and threeads passim.

To be honest, I've found it's the incomers who've descended on the place over the last seven years or so who've gone around lecturing the locals and pontifcating on the virtues of putting up with unwanted drug dealing.

[poster342002]

TBH, my experience suggests that the police are hesitant at taking on some of the more (ahem) frightening looking youngsters in the public spaces, tending to stop more of the more restful looking folks and more isolated individuals.
That is wrong and does need to be addressed.

[RushcroftRoader]

ASBO's really are an offence against any sort of democracy.

I have been buying weed in Brixton for 25 years and the dealing was more prevalent then rather than now.

I still for the life of me can't see why a few incomers are so concerned and threatend by a few fellas saying "skunk" when they walk past.


Have you read any posts on this subject in the last year???!!
:mad:

[tarannau]

For the Umpdred-and-Umpety-Umpth time, it's NOT just incomers who are fed up with it. Many of us have lived here as long or longer than yourself and thoroughly pissed off with it and have gone into the reasons why over and over again - see posts and threeads passim.

Yes, but you've never really given a good reason why it's that big a problem in reality. Why is saying 'no' so difficult for you? Frankly hysterical hyperbole, like your description of being unable to get 'near' the busstops, marks you out as someone who needs to get a sense of perspective. Christ, it's not a real hardship to walk past someone is it?

Somehow I sense that few things would make you happy Poster342002 and it's illuminating that many of the posters complaining about the dealers do tend to be incomers, or are approaching different stages of life. No disrespect, but I suspect some of them had unrealistic expectations about how quickly the area would change and go upmarket.

Compared to the wild west atmosphere of the 7-11 back in the day the puff yellers ain't all that bad. I suspect people's memories of the past are far more rose tinted than they'd admit.

[detective-boy]

If this is all true, then it is an utter, utter scandal. WHY are magistrates and the council behaving in this way?
Mainly because everyone always blames the police for every crime problem and so they don't give a fuck cos they don't have to deal with the shit.

[detective-boy]

Unless the law has changed recently, I'm pretty sure that if you're offering for sale something purporting to be a drug, you can actually get arrested/charged for that offence, even if it is tea leaves/mixed herbs or whatever. Perhaps Detective Boy can confirm....?
Yes, it may be an offence underthe Misuse of Drugs Act of counselling or procuring someone to commit an offence, it may be an attempt or aiding and abetting an attempt to supply and / or possess or it may be obtaining property (the money) by deception depending on the exact circumstances.

And there is no reason why such activity could not lead to an ASBO on it's own anyway.

[detective-boy]

Personally I blame Paddock and his ridiculous 'experiment'.
Perhaps you care to explain what you think Cmdr Paddick's "experiment" was and how, exactly, that led to more street dealing?

[detective-boy]

ASBO's really are an offence against any sort of democracy.

And how do you reach that conclusion?

[bluestreak]

It is not an exaggeration, as you well know. Stop defending the indefensible and denying the undeniable.

hmm, well in the six months now that i've lived in brixton i ahve to admit that i think you're talking total shite. the bus stops down that way are most certainly not solely occupied by the dealers, in fact they're a tiny minority and there seems to be many many people who don't obviously object to sharing their bus wait with these idiots.

this is not to say that i'm a fan of the skunkskunk men, because i'm not and i'd quite happily see them removed from the streets, but it is to say that any suggestion that they drive people away from those bus-stops entirely is horseshit. there are additional bus stops within a couple of minutes walk that serve all the same buses and yet the skunkskunk men still don't drive off a vast amount of human beings who are always waiting for buses there.

[timothysutton1]

...explain Cmdr Paddock's "experiment" and how that led to more street dealing?

Paddock's announcement that Brixton would go soft on drugs was an open invite to every drug dealer and addict in town.

The police have now done a U-turn but I have yet to see an apology to the residents of Brixton who are still living with the aftermath.

[Donna Ferentes]

From Josephine Avenue
Comes a quite unbalanced view.

[bluestreak]

Paddock's announcement that Brixton would go soft on drugs was an open invite to every drug dealer and addict in town.

The police have now done a U-turn but I have yet to see an apology to the residents of Brixton who are still living with the aftermath.

but most residents of brixton seem to think that it's not as bad as it was before the experiment don't they? that seems to be the impression this nu-brixtonite gets.

[tarannau]

Paddock's announcement that Brixton would go soft on drugs was an open invite to every drug dealer and addict in town.

The police have now done a U-turn but I have yet to see an apology to the residents of Brixton who are still living with the aftermath.

That's such a load of bollocks - can you show anything which backs that assertion up? It's certainly not my experience living in the centre of Brixton both pre and post Paddick.

For all the guff spoken about Paddick, I don't really believe he achieved much more than achieve greater cooperation between the police and the local community. News of Paddick certainly didn't reach the bulk Jamaica and lead to a flood of 'aggressive drug dealers' flooding Brixton, nor did it lead to a new demographic of 'middleclass drugs tourists" (cliches not courtesy of this poster) descending in hordes. Both of those groups were already here pre-Paddick. If anything, Brixton is less popular now in terms of its nightlife trade than it was a good few years ago - folks have come here for years in search of entertainment and other bits for countless years.

What Paddick did try and achieve was to target resources at the most chaotic and harmful of the dealers. I've no argument with that, nor can I point the finger at him for the police's continued operational failings.

It's this kneejerk, uninformed Daily-Mail bollocks that does you no credit Timothysutton.

[timothysutton1]

...can you show anything which backs that assertion up...

Are you trying to claim that the 'soft on drugs' policy worked?

If that was the case why was it reversed?

[RushcroftRoader]

Are you trying to claim that the 'soft on drugs' policy worked?

If that was the case why was it reversed?

the soft on drugs policy was an abject failure ion my book. But whatever your views on it, you have to ask: Why was Brixton chosen as the trial area in the first place? Why not Tumbridge Wells or Aberdeen or anywhere else? Why Brixton?

[phildwyer]

There is no doubt in my mind that some people here are exagerrating the problem caused by street dealing in Brixton. In a few cases their tone borders on hysteria. This is the kind of issue that is often used by reactionaries in the media and local politics to stir up agitation for law'n'order, aggressive hostility towards the underclass and--yes--plain old racism. I think people should be more careful before they put their energies behind attempts to "clean up" Brixton. I think that such attempts further the process of gentrification, and that this process has been destroying and will continue to destroy the character of the neighborhood. I find it hard to believe that these views are controversial in this forum.

[Winot]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TopCat
ASBO's really are an offence against any sort of democracy.

And how do you reach that conclusion?

Not an offence against democracy. Most people probably support them. However I have serious concerns about circumvention of due legal process when the state can effectively dish out criminal sanction without having to find criminal standards of evidence.

[timothysutton1]

...Why not Tumbridge Wells...?

Because too many people would complain in Tunbridge Wells. Perhaps we should be complaining more (see below):

Volunteers needed for community panel

Do you live or work in Brixton town centre? Are you concernend about crime and community safety in and around the high street? Would you like to be part of a group developing solutions?

Lambeth Community Safety Team is looking for volunteers to become part of a new Community Panel in Brixton. If you are interested, why not come along to a meeting and get your voice heard.

7pm, Monday 11 September 2006, room 125, Lambeth Town Hall. More information, call Lambeth Community Safety Team on 020 7926 2733.

[tarannau]

Are you trying to claim that the 'soft on drugs' policy worked?

If that was the case why was it reversed?

So that's the 'I've no proof, but I'm going to guess and recite the DailyMail line anyway' stock response then.

FWIW, the 'soft on drugs' policy - which is a ludicrous, innacurate description of a policy intending to target hard drug dealers in any case- didn't really have that big and long lasting effect one way or the other because of a lack of commitment and resources shown by the police.

Why was it reversed? I suspect the 'moral outrage' response and hysterical gaybashing cliched nonsense from the right wing press didn't help. Equally I suspect that Paddick wasn't perhaps the most popular person within the police - I wouldn't put its withdrawal beyond petty politics.

What's true is that Paddick was one of the few officers at his level who you could see wandering the streets by himself, engaging with the community. For all the outrage and frothing moral indignation, he built up a bit of trust with many everyday people in the area, not just self-appointed community' experts' and committee busybodies

[Nickster]

There is no doubt in my mind that some people here are exagerrating the problem caused by street dealing in Brixton. In a few cases their tone borders on hysteria. This is the kind of issue that is often used by reactionaries in the media and local politics to stir up agitation for law'n'order, aggressive hostility towards the underclass and--yes--plain old racism. I think people should be more careful before they put their energies behind attempts to "clean up" Brixton. I think that such attempts further the process of gentrification, and that this process has been destroying and will continue to destroy the character of the neighborhood. I find it hard to believe that these views are controversial in this forum.

Oh FFS. Paranoid hyperbole alert!
How come this thread which started off quite interesting has gone so far off subject?

So - some claim it's the white middle-class to want to clean up the streets of drug-dealing, others say it's the white middle-classes who keep the dealers in business.
Some say that it's part of the local culture for drugs to be sold on the street and it's the right of long-staying residents to keep this "tradition". Others say the "underclass" are the ones who are oppressed by a culture of non-respect for the law and far more likely to be the victims of drug-related crime.

IMO this isn't a racist issue at all, nor is it a class divide issue. Haven't had time to think it all the way thru but it's something to do with personal responsibility. If you're a recreational drug user you can't really be justified in taking potshots at others doing the same thing in a different way unless they're damaging others in the process. But saying that drug-dealing is part of Brixton culture and should be defended against the white middle-class chardonnay-sipping barbarian horde is simplistic, stereotyping and lazy thinking.

To get back to the original post....

Is there a limit on the amount of ASBOs you can receive before some other action happens?
The dealers at the top of Saltoun Road seem to be new faces - I wonder if those who previously staked their claim on that corner were ASBO'd.

[tarannau]

Do you live or work in Brixton town centre? Are you concernend about crime and community safety in and around the high street? Would you like to be part of a group developing solutions?


Erm, I didn't see this contribution before my last post, but doesn't this advert show why I wouldn't take such groups as representative of the wider community.

In the same way that Mary Whitehouse put herself forward as arbiter of tv standards, some self-interested opinionated busybodies will undoubtedly put themselves forward for roles like this. Perhaps it's partly unavoidable, but I wish there was a better way to get a feel for the wishes of the majority.

[phildwyer]

Why was it reversed?

I suspect that many local residents were concerned about the effect on property values.

[tarannau]

Is there a limit on the amount of ASBOs you can receive before some other action happens?
The dealers at the top of Saltoun Road seem to be new faces - I wonder if those who previously staked their claim on that corner were ASBO'd.

Nah, I think they just rotate. The most senior faces are still definitely the same, but the younger group is more changeable. It's getting colder now anyway and only the more committed tend to stay out.

[phildwyer]

If you're a recreational drug user you can't really be justified in taking potshots at others doing the same thing in a different way unless they're damaging others in the process.

Precisely. What interests me though is the motivation behind such "pot-shots." What excuses them? How do those who take them rationalize their position? I think I know, but I shall keep my theories to myself on this thread.

[Donna Ferentes]

I suspect that many local residents were concerned about the effect on property values.It's possible. But maybe, I suspect
It wasn't residents who wanted to object
So much as loudmouths in the tabloid press
And, just as influential, I would guess.
New Labour. Who have only one clear line -
Crackdown. And if Paul Dacre wants it, then that's fine.

[phildwyer]

It's possible. But maybe, I suspect
It wasn't residents who wanted to object
So much as loudmouths in the tabloid press
And, just as influential, I would guess.
New Labour. Who have only one clear line -
Crackdown. And if Paul Dacre wants it, then that's fine.

I don't know about that. I've seen plenty of local residents calling for a "crackdown" on this thread. It saddens me to see that they have learned so little from recent local history. That is not of course to discount the role that "loudmouths in the tabloid press" play in stirring up and directing such feelings, which they most certainly do.

[timothysutton1]

...I suspect the 'moral outrage'... I suspect that Paddick... I wouldn't put its withdrawal beyond...

Well, with all your suspicions and guess work you've made a pretty water-tight case.



...I wish there was a better way to get a feel for the wishes of the majority.

An open public meeting seems pretty fair to me. What do you want, telepathy!

[Donna Ferentes]

I don't know about that. I've seen plenty of local residents calling for a "crackdown" on this thread. It saddens me to see that they have learned so little from recent local history. That is not of course to discount the role that "loudmouths in the tabloid press" play in stirring up and directing such feelings, which they most certainly do.
I'm sure that there were many locals who aspired
To finish Paddick's policy - and get him fired
But overall I shouldn't think the Brixton point of view
Was further to the right, on average, than those who knew
Nothing about the place, its people - and cared less
But wielded more influence in Whitehall and the press.

[phildwyer]

I'm sure that there were many locals who aspired
To finish Paddick's policy - and get him fired
But overall I shouldn't think the Brixton point of view
Was further to the right, on average, than those who knew
Nothing about the place, its people - and cared less
But wielded more influence in Whitehall and the press.

I agree. I'm sure the vast majority of Brixton residents don't support a "crackdown" or anything like it. I firmly believe that those residents who call for such action are out of touch with their community. Unfortunately, they are also among its most vocal--and influential--members. And so it is quite likely that their agitation for a "crackdown" will be successful. That is the danger that worries me.

[poster342002]

I agree. I'm sure the vast majority of Brixton residents don't support a "crackdown" or anything like it. I firmly believe that those residents who call for such action are out of touch with their community.
Gosh - how wise and knowledgable you are on what Brixton's residents do or don't support given that you don't actually live here.

[tarannau]

Well, with all your suspicions and guess work you've made a pretty water-tight case.

An open public meeting seems pretty fair to me. What do you want, telepathy!

TBH, if you think that an 'open' public meeting is going to attract a representative selection of the community then you're too naive to take seriously. Are you really going to argue that they're a good way to gauge the mood of the wider community?

I would add that I wasn't the one suggesting that the 'soft on drugs' (I note you didn't comment on just how inaccurate your perception was of the policy) initiative was a dismal failure, nor that it was an 'an open invite to every drug dealer and addict in town.' It's incumbent on you to back those strong views with facts and figures, not me - I was merely responding as a longstanding local with strong roots in the area. Can't you see the problem with you spouting off such uninformed, finger in the air assertions as 'facts?'

[Donna Ferentes]

Gosh - how wise and knowledgable you are on what Brixton's residents do or don't support given that you don't actually live here.Neither, come to think of it, do I -
Does that mean my views don't qualify?

[timothysutton1]

...I'm sure the vast majority of Brixton residents don't support a "crackdown" or anything like it...

Why are you sure? Where is your evidence?

[phildwyer]

Gosh - how wise and knowledgable you are on what Brixton's residents do or don't support given that you don't actually live here.

I know Brixton and its residents well. I have no doubt that I have guaged their mood accurately.

[poster342002]

I know Brixton and its residents well. I have no doubt that I have guaged their mood accurately.
So do I, so do I. And so do I.

Stalemate.

[tarannau]

Well, I doubt you have Phil, seeing you as you about as much self-knowledge and personal insight as a myopic version of Nikki from BB.

As for support for a crackdown, do Brixton residents traditionally trust and admire the police? Would most give them their unconditional support to crack down on steet dealers. When you see someone being arrested on the street do you often see positive reactions towards the police or a fair few people looking distrustful.

Shall we go on timothy? it's circumstantial perhaps, but it's certainly more compelling and based in reality than your ludicrous and suspiciously inaccurate description of Paddick's policies.

[timothysutton1]

I know Brixton and its residents well. I have no doubt that I have guaged their mood accurately.

pompous adj. foolishly serious and grand, self-important. – pompously adv. – pomposity n.

[Donna Ferentes]

So do I. And so do I.

Stalemate.A chessplayer writes : oh no it's not.
A stalemate we've only got
When one side cannot make a move
And whether or not you would approve
We're yet to reach that happy state -
There'll be more moves in this debate.

[Donna Ferentes]

pompous adj. foolishly serious and grand, self-important. – pompously adv. – pompossity n.Your spelling's wrong, I must confess:
"Pomposity" has just one s.

[phildwyer]

Well, I doubt you have Phil, seeing you as you about as much self-knowledge and personal insight as a myopic version of Nikki from BB.

I really wish twats such as Tarannau would not reduce this debate to personal insults. One might almost get the impression that twats such as Tarannau are trying to derail this thread. Fuck off, twats such as Tarannau.

[tarannau]

So do I, so do I. And so do I.

Stalemate.

Like bollocks you have. I don't see people jumping in to support you on your 'can't get near the bus stops' assertion. Not even close. And you've still never said just what is so distressing about folks offering you 'skunk' instead of 'sensi' in the old days.

Not trying to be horrible, but things said to you are likely to go through the patented poster342002 filter of utter miserability.

:p


Edited to clear up quote-based confusion. Apologies for a bit of clumsy quoting.

[phildwyer]

Like bollocks you have. I don't see people jumping in to support you on your 'can't get near the bus stops' assertion. Not even close. And you've still never said just what is so distressing about folks offering you 'skunk' instead of 'sensi' in the old days.

Are you mad? It was not I who made either of these assertions. I do believe you owe me an apology.

[Donna Ferentes]

Not trying to be horrible, but things said to you are likely to go through the patented poster342002 filter of utter miserability.Hang on. You've crossed a couple of wires
Poster's not Mr Phildwyer.

[tarannau]

I really wish twats such as Tarannau would not reduce this debate to personal insults. One might almost get the impression that twats such as Tarannau are trying to derail this thread. Fuck off, twats such as Tarannau.

If you stopped acting and writing like a pompous prick Phil, then people may actually stop calling you one.

:)

I know Brixton and its residents well. I have no doubt that I have guaged their mood accurately..

Indeed. You're really helping the weight and insight of this discussion now.

:D

[timothysutton1]

Your spelling's wrong, I must confess:
"Pomposity" has just one s.


Well spotted there
It's been corrected
I hope my arguement
has not been effected

[phildwyer]

If you stopped acting and writing like a pompous prick Phil, then people may actually stop calling you one.

Your evaluation of my character is probably not helped by your inability to distinguish my posts from those of others who hold very different views to my own.

[tarannau]

Your evaluation of my character is probably not helped by your inability to distinguish my posts from those of others who hold very different views to my own.

I've apologised for the genuine mistake, but it's quite clear from the body of my post (which even mentions poster342002 by name) that I grabbed the wrong quote in haste.

The point about you being a pompous prick and a distraction from decent debate stands though.

:)

[phildwyer]

The point about you being a pompous prick and a distraction from decent debate stands though.

No it does not. It is *you* who are distracting from our debate with your gratuitous, pathetic and *unprovoked* personal attacks on myself. Will you now shut up?

[tarannau]

Unprovoked my arse. When you come up with pompous arsenuggets like this:

I know Brixton and its residents well. I have no doubt that I have guaged their mood accurately.

...it leaves little room for others to do anything other than ridicule and insult you. It's playground posting on your part - the equivalent of saying 'I know best, so ner , ner, ner.' It isn't ever going to be conducive to decent debate and is nearly always going to lead to a sidetrack as folks question your credibility - and boy have they good reason to doubt you, based on your numbskull posts and history of disruption elsewhere. At least some folks have attempted to back up or qualify their opinions.

Anyway, as you were.

[Donna Ferentes]

Unprovoked my arse. When you come up with pompous arsenuggets like this:



...it leaves little room for others to do anything other than ridicule and insult you. Oh, tosh. What sort of argument is this?
Just give the epithets a miss.
If what he says is quite absurd
He'll be condemned by his own words.

[RushcroftRoader]

There is absolutely no question whatsoever that the vast majority of Brixton residents, both old and new, want crack dealers and gangs of intimidating youths off the streets. Full stop. The end. This can not be disputed.
Just ask my neighbour who is moving out of Brixton after 35 years because of the way things have deteriorated in the last 18 months.
He is not white, not middle class, not a property owner.
He has been recently beaten up, harassed on a daily basis and subject to abuse when he steps out of his front door.
Its the new wave of crack head scumbags that threaten to destory Brixton, not anyone else.
Not new residents, not the Daily Mail and not ASBOs.
Its the whole community crying out for something to be done, not a white minority.
This has nothing to do with age, race, colour or creed or even PhilDwyer.
Its about human shit on the doorstep, violent crime, class A drug addiction, protection rackets and human misery.
I am sick to death of paranoid twits who see themselves of custodians of "real" Brixton claiming that you have to put up with the The Ghetto or see Brixton become Tunbridge Wells. What a pile of steaming bilge!

[detective-boy]

Paddock's announcement that Brixton would go soft on drugs was an open invite to every drug dealer and addict in town.
Please link to his "announcement that Brixton would go soft on drugs". I don't think you will be able to do so, because he never made any such announcement. His "experiment" was simply to formalise the process whereby officers finding very small amounts of cannabis would be able to legitimately cionfiscate it and issue an immediate warning - something which had always been done unofficially by officers previously anyway but which left them open to allegations of malpractice.

[tarannau]

I agree in principle Donna, but in reality it's a desperately unrewarding process.

If you don't react someone else will - Poster342002 in this case - dragging the whole debate into a sidetrack. It's not as though there isn't a pattern of Phil's disruption sprinkled throughout the boards. Sometimes you've just got to call a pompous cock a pompous cock. I'll try harder from now.

:)

[detective-boy]

Not an offence against democracy. Most people probably support them. However I have serious concerns about circumvention of due legal process when the state can effectively dish out criminal sanction without having to find criminal standards of evidence.
I see the point you are making, but it could be argued that an ASBO isn't a criminal sanction in itself. The BREACH of an ASBO (which DOES have to be proven to the criminal standard) leads to criminal sanctions.

[tarannau]

There is absolutely no question whatsoever that the vast majority of Brixton residents, both old and new, want crack dealers and gangs of intimidating youths off the streets. Full stop. The end. This can not be disputed.

I am sick to death of paranoid twits who see themselves of custodians of "real" Brixton claiming that you have to put up with the The Ghetto or see Brixton become Tunbridge Wells. What a pile of steaming bilge!

Erm, straw man. Who the hell is claiming that they don't want crack dealers and intimidating youths off the street?

In fact, wasn't that the whole purpose of Paddick's policy, to try and target the hard drug dealers and more serious criminals? That doesn't include someone selling teabag scrapings and shouting 'skunk, skunk' in my book.

Want to try and parody the debate any more? Put Dwyer's inane contributions to the side by the way, he's admittedly not helping.

[Donna Ferentes]

There is absolutely no question whatsoever that the vast majority of Brixton residents, both old and new, want crack dealers and gangs of intimidating youths off the streets.That's so, but how should that be done?
With ASBOs? Prison? Cops with guns?

[Donna Ferentes]

Its about human shit on the doorstep, violent crime, class A drug addiction, protection rackets and human misery.I don't like this. Nobody's "human shit".
No matter what they've done. Get rid of it.

[RushcroftRoader]

I don't like this. Nobody's "human shit".
No matter what they've done. Get rid of it.

eh, no I actually meant it literally. As in, human excrament on my doorstep. Human poo. You know, the stuff that comes out of a human bottom. :)

[detective-boy]

the soft on drugs policy was an abject failure ion my book. But whatever your views on it, you have to ask: Why was Brixton chosen as the trial area in the first place? Why not Tumbridge Wells or Aberdeen or anywhere else? Why Brixton?
It wasn't a "soft on drugs" policy. It was intended to free up resources which could then be better used on more serious drug problems. It certainly freed up some resources but whether they were ever re-assigned to more serious drug problems I don't know.

And it was in Brixton because that was (a) where Cmdr Paddick who decided to take the step happened to be posted at the time and (b) where there was a significant amount of police time being taken up pissing about with trivial cannabis possession offences and / or significant numbers of instances of police officers informally dealing with such offences outside the proper approved procedures. There were similar problems in some other areas but not all by any means (and I suspect not Tunbridge Wells or Aberdeen) and problems only get addressed where they are such that they draw attention to themselves.

[RushcroftRoader]

I don't like this. Nobody's "human shit".
No matter what they've done. Get rid of it.

eh, no I actually meant it literally. As in, human excrament on my doorstep. Human poo. You know, the stuff that comes out of a human bottom. :)

[RushcroftRoader]

I don't like this. Nobody's "human shit".
No matter what they've done. Get rid of it.

eh, no I actually meant it literally. As in, human excrament on my doorstep. Human poo. You know, the stuff that comes out of a human bottom. :)

[RushcroftRoader]

eh, no I actually meant it literally. As in, human excrament on my doorstep. Human poo. You know, the stuff that comes out of a human bottom. :)

oops. somehow i posted that 4 times. whoops!

[poster342002]

I don't like this. Nobody's "human shit".
.
Oh I don't know - what about people like Stalin, Pinochet etc etc?

[detective-boy]

Is there a limit on the amount of ASBOs you can receive before some other action happens?
I think you misunderstand what they are.

ASBOs are not a caution or something like that. They are a preventative measure and, unless someone breaches them, are just some criminally enforceable standards. They are better looked at like an injunction so you wouldn't get more than one at the same time for the same thing (you could get multiple ones for multiple different bits of anti-social behaviour).

They only bite when they are breached as breach is a criminal offence which, if proven, has a maximum penalty of 5 years.

Your street dealers could have ASBOs which - prevent being in Coldharbour Lane or any defined area; prevent street sales of any material; prevent whistling and muttering "Skunk, skunk" to an passer-by or whatever else appears to the Court to be anti-social behaviour which should rightly be prevented.

[Donna Ferentes]

RR - OK. I see your point, three times expressed
And yet I still proclaim I'm not impressed.
Of course the problem has to be addressed
But with intelligence. That's the main point
Or else the policy gets written by the press
It'll be like Oklahoma: banged up for a joint.
"Get them" is no solution - we know this, it's been tried
For years across America. They put dealers inside
For life. And has it made a change? It's not. It's just a game
For politicans. When it fails, they do more of the same.

[phildwyer]

There is absolutely no question whatsoever that the vast majority of Brixton residents, both old and new, want crack dealers and gangs of intimidating youths off the streets. Full stop. The end. This can not be disputed.

Ah, but it can. I dispute it. Neither of us has any evidence but our own experiences of Brixton: I conclude that we move in different circles. Also if I may say so your later reference to "human shit" betrays a great deal about your attitude to the community.

[Donna Ferentes]

Also if I may say so your later reference to "human shit" betrays a great deal about your attitude to the community.That's an exaggeration - see his clarification!

[phildwyer]

Sometimes you've just got to call a pompous cock a pompous cock.

Bollocks. I think you're an utter twat who disrupts every single thread you come on to by spouting your bullshit. But I don't bother saying so. Why? Because I don't want to help you disrupt the thread. You should learn to keep your mouth shut.

[phildwyer]

That's an exaggeration - see his clarification!

Fair enough, missed that before.

[RushcroftRoader]

Bollocks. I think you're an utter twat who disrupts every single thread you come on to by spouting your bullshit. But I don't bother saying so. Why? Because I don't want to help you disrupt the thread. You should learn to keep your mouth shut.

why don't you guys fight it out in PMs?

[Dan U]

same old same old with this thread.

[pooka]

Erm, straw man. Who the hell is claiming that they don't want crack dealers and intimidating youths off the street?

In fact, wasn't that the whole purpose of Paddick's policy, to try and target the hard drug dealers and more serious criminals? That doesn't include someone selling teabag scrapings and shouting 'skunk, skunk' in my book.

Want to try and parody the debate any more? Put Dwyer's inane contributions to the side by the way, he's admittedly not helping.

'Paddick's policy', in fact an MPS trial which is now national policy, would absolutely deal with anyone selling any illicit drugs. It's only departure from previous procedures was not to arrest people for possession of canabiss, but rather to confiscate it and issue them with a warning.

[Gixxer1000]

There is absolutely no question whatsoever that the vast majority of Brixton residents, both old and new, want crack dealers and gangs of intimidating youths off the streets. Full stop. The end. This can not be disputed.
Just ask my neighbour who is moving out of Brixton after 35 years because of the way things have deteriorated in the last 18 months.
He is not white, not middle class, not a property owner.
He has been recently beaten up, harassed on a daily basis and subject to abuse when he steps out of his front door.
Its the new wave of crack head scumbags that threaten to destory Brixton, not anyone else.
Not new residents, not the Daily Mail and not ASBOs.
Its the whole community crying out for something to be done, not a white minority.
This has nothing to do with age, race, colour or creed or even PhilDwyer.
Its about human shit on the doorstep, violent crime, class A drug addiction, protection rackets and human misery.
I am sick to death of paranoid twits who see themselves of custodians of "real" Brixton claiming that you have to put up with the The Ghetto or see Brixton become Tunbridge Wells. What a pile of steaming bilge!
What he said^
Yep, nice walking your kids past junkies shooting up into their dick in broad daylight or some punter screwing a prostitute:rolleyes:

[tippee]

There is absolutely no question whatsoever that the vast majority of Brixton residents, both old and new, want crack dealers and gangs of intimidating youths off the streets. Full stop. The end. This can not be disputed.
Just ask my neighbour who is moving out of Brixton after 35 years because of the way things have deteriorated in the last 18 months.
He is not white, not middle class, not a property owner.
He has been recently beaten up, harassed on a daily basis and subject to abuse when he steps out of his front door.
Its the new wave of crack head scumbags that threaten to destory Brixton, not anyone else.
Not new residents, not the Daily Mail and not ASBOs.
Its the whole community crying out for something to be done, not a white minority.
This has nothing to do with age, race, colour or creed or even PhilDwyer.
Its about human shit on the doorstep, violent crime, class A drug addiction, protection rackets and human misery.
I am sick to death of paranoid twits who see themselves of custodians of "real" Brixton claiming that you have to put up with the The Ghetto or see Brixton become Tunbridge Wells. What a pile of steaming bilge!


Spot on!

[timothysutton1]

There is absolutely no question whatsoever that the vast majority of Brixton residents, both old and new, want crack dealers and gangs of intimidating youths off the streets. Full stop. The end. This can not be disputed.
Just ask my neighbour who is moving out of Brixton after 35 years because of the way things have deteriorated in the last 18 months.
He is not white, not middle class, not a property owner.
He has been recently beaten up, harassed on a daily basis and subject to abuse when he steps out of his front door.
Its the new wave of crack head scumbags that threaten to destory Brixton, not anyone else.
Not new residents, not the Daily Mail and not ASBOs.
Its the whole community crying out for something to be done, not a white minority.
This has nothing to do with age, race, colour or creed or even PhilDwyer.
Its about human shit on the doorstep, violent crime, class A drug addiction, protection rackets and human misery.
I am sick to death of paranoid twits who see themselves of custodians of "real" Brixton claiming that you have to put up with the The Ghetto or see Brixton become Tunbridge Wells. What a pile of steaming bilge!

Couldn't put it better myself.

[poster342002]

Indeed - an excellent post, RushcroftRoader!

[William of Walworth]

Bollocks. I think you're an utter twat who disrupts every single thread you come on to by spouting your bullshit. But I don't bother saying so. Why? Because I don't want to help you disrupt the thread. You should learn to keep your mouth shut.

why don't you guys fight it out in PMs?

Personally I think tarannau is speaking a lot more sense about Brixton, and he clearly has a lot more experience of the place than dwyer has.

This row between them is not 'equal fault'.

<rest edited>

[William of Walworth]

But as for your other post, RR, I ENTIRELY see where you're coming from.

[tarannau]

Indeed - an excellent post, RushcroftRoader!

The trouble is, for all the emotive alarmist language, that argues against a position that nobody has taken- it's a big fat strawman of a post. Nobody has argued in support of 'crack dealers and gangs of intimidating youths,' nor suggested that folks can go on and shit on whatever doorstep they like. Even the example of the one person in the opening post, a desperate beggar and crack user, would not exactly fit into those two easily demonized groups.

Yes, I would believe that the majority of folks would certainly be against aggressive gangs and dealers. However, that isn't even close to logically mean that the majority of locals are that concerned about the 'skunk,skunk' crew, nor want to see ASBOs handed out insensitively, nor would support a massive police crackdown on soft drugs and those who happen to be 'loitering' in public spaces. It's one thing to be opposed to the degrading hard drugs trade, it's another to get a bee in your bonnet about people saying one word to you repeatedly.

[poster342002]

The trouble is, for all the emotive alarmist language, that argues against a position that nobody has taken- it's a big fat strawman of a post. Nobody has argued in support of 'crack dealers and gangs of intimidating youths,' nor suggested that folks can go on and shit on whatever doorstep they like. Even the example of the one person in the opening post, a desperate beggar and crack user, would not exactly fit into those two easily demonized groups.

Yes, I would believe that the majority of folks would certainly be against aggressive gangs and dealers. However, that isn't even close to logically mean that the majority of locals are that concerned about the 'skunk,skunk' crew, nor want to see ASBOs handed out insensitively, nor would support a massive police crackdown on soft drugs and those who happen to be 'loitering' in public spaces. It's one thing to be opposed to the degrading hard drugs trade, it's another to get a bee in your bonnet about people saying one word to you repeatedly.
It's about what goes with it - an awful, seedy atmospheare which in turn attracts other trouble. I would also seriously doubt if that many people are happy to see the "skunkskunkskunk" lot remain, for those very reasons.

[tarannau]

It's about what goes with it - an awful, seedy atmospheare which in turn attracts other trouble. I would also seriously doubt if that many people are happy to see the "skunkskunkskunk" lot remain, for those very reasons.

That's not backed up by the past or real evidence is it though? When the Frontline was in full swing it was full of people offering things (albeit the far more tuneful sounding 'sensi, sensi, sensimilia') in far more seedy, smoky environments, with no such real troubles seeming to occur as a result. Same goes for plenty of other dealing zones in Brixton and the South London area, many of which have been pushed off more residential areas into town centres.

I know it's your hobby horse Poster342002, but I simply don't believe you've got a sense of perspective or detachment on the issue - your rant about not being able to get 'near' to the bus-stops, laughed at by posters like Bluestreak, is evidence of that. Besides, I get the distinct feelign that you may feel threatened by these groups of guys even if they didn't say anything to you at all. What's the answer then? Move anyone away who happens to hang around public spaces because they 'intimidate' you by invading your personal space in some way. I don't think some folks like the street drinkers and others 'loitering' around the town centre spaces, but the reality is that many of those outside crave the open air, escape from home and social aspect of it all. Where can you keep moving them onto? Equally, you shouldn't confuse those making a quick opportunistic buck with the long term habits and degradation of hard drug users and sellers.

[phildwyer]

Again, I find myself wondering about the true motivation of those who want to see the streets of Brixton swept clean of dealers and other alleged "undesirables." I know that Rushcroft Roader is well-intentioned enough, but I don't think the same holds true of many people who get involved in these "campaigns." All too often they do so for reasons of naked self-interest, preferring their property values to the traditional character of the neighborhood. And in some cases they use their law'n'order hobbyhorse as a mask for very base motives indeed--racism not excluded.

[Mrs Magpie]

Well I'm in social housing but we are just expected to put up with shit because we're scum.

[tarannau]

To be fair to RR, I don't think anyone would seriously posit that the 'traditional character of the neighborhood' (sic) really consisted of people jacking up in doorways and heroin addicts shitting on doorsteps. The landscape of smack and crack is different.

However, the area's always had a lively street culture, far more bustle on the streets and outside house-fronts, a healthy disregard for personal space - I vividly remember the enjoyable bundle of the busy market and pushing my way through the crowds as a kid, just as I remember the soundsystems out front of residential streets, barbecueing and playing tunes till the early hours. In sanitising that, a piece of Brixton has been lost, as has the togetherness of some of the community.

I'd also perhaps quibble with the perception that Rushcroft has got much dodgier in the past 18 months. I'd say it's been dodgy for umpteen years now and I suspect certain residents may just have reached their tipping point with the lack of progress made. I also think it was always a gamble to buy there with that in mind, you benefited from the comparatively lower property values in such a central location but the risk was that it was a noisy, high crime area. I don't know when RR bought his place, but it's perhaps a bit rich to complain that the investment didn't pay off as quickly as possible and the area hasn't improved 'as expected'. There were far quieter, less risky (and potentially not as profitable) streets nearby he could have moved to.

[Donna Ferentes]

If talk of race causes apprehension
Think instead (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=4139331&highlight=tensions#post4139331), perhaps, of tension (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=4077337&highlight=tensions#post4077337)

[TopCat]

Have you read any posts on this subject in the last year???!!
:mad:

Yes, and you were wrong then and you are still wrong. :)

[Gixxer1000]

And in some cases they use their law'n'order hobbyhorse as a mask for very base motives indeed--racism not excluded.
What exactly are you saying?I hope you arent suggesting that the black community dont welcome law and order?

[detective-boy]

a healthy disregard for personal space
I think that highlights a key part of the differing attitudes - there are very significant cultural diferences at work here. In Western Europe we tend to have a pretty strong feeling of "ownership" of our personal space and invasion makes us pretty wound-up pretty quickly. Likewise the quiet enjoyment of our gardens or back yards rather than communal enjoyment of a party somewhere nearby. And social gatherings in our houses, as opposed to on the steps.

All of these things vary significantly between cultures and, where there is a cutural mix, they all have the potential for causing friction and disagreement.

[phildwyer]

I think that highlights a key part of the differing attitudes - there are very significant cultural diferences at work here. In Western Europe we tend to have a pretty strong feeling of "ownership" of our personal space and invasion makes us pretty wound-up pretty quickly.

That's right, its a point I've made several times. I believe that it is reprehensible to impose middle-England's concept of personal space on communities containing large numbers of first- and second-generation immigrants.

[timothysutton1]

If talk of race causes apprehension...

Love the new CD

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0340922788.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V59618113_.jpg



<edited by Mrs M to fix image tags>

[Donna Ferentes]

I don't believe her face quite fits me:
I lived in Oxford, she in Witney.

[Mrs Magpie]

DF! You've just made my tea go down the wrong way!

[Donna Ferentes]

I aim to please
With ill-digested tea.

[timothysutton1]

I don't believe her face quite fits me:
I lived in Oxford, she in Witney.

I'm sorry, you have it wrong
Stanford-in-the-Vale is where she's from

[Mrs Magpie]

I am a Witney blanket,
Original and best;
You'll never get cold feet
With me across your chest!


I allus thought she lived in Witney

[Donna Ferentes]

I'm sorry, you have it wrong
Stanford-in-the-Vale is where she's fromIs she really? Well, it could be worse
There's few from there can read, forget write verse.