Brixton tube: metal detectors and machine-gun toting police!

[editor]

Came out of the tube around 4pm today to find a ton of cops in the station, police dogs, travellers being directed through an airport style, full body metal detector and at least three armed police at the top of the stairs carrying pistols and machine guns!

Anyone know what brought this immense show of near-military force out on display?

[gaijingirl]

They keep doing it. They did it in Herne Hill not so long ago (Dub posted a thread up about it after I came through HH one night and was sent through a metal detector and had dogs sniff my bag). They did it in Bromley the same week and have been doing it on and off at all the stations (train and tube) for some time now.

Apparently it's to find knives.

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=151844&highlight=Herne+Hill

[blackadder]

Could it have been a drill?

[Dubversion]

don't think the guns gave been out at the other 'knife arch' placings.. maybe a carnival reaction? big crowds heading back?

Maybe they're waiting for Nobby ;)

[snadge]

They keep doing it. They did it in Herne Hill not so long ago (Dub posted a thread up about it after I came through HH one night and was sent through a metal detector and had dogs sniff my bag). They did it in Bromley the same week and have been doing it on and off at all the stations (train and tube) for some time now.

Apparently it's to find knives.

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=151844&highlight=Herne+Hill


they must now have knife detector dogs now.

[wiskey]

don't think the guns gave been out at the other 'knife arch' placings.. maybe a carnival reaction? big crowds heading back?

Maybe they're waiting for Nobby ;)

i did see an interview with a copper about carnival last week in which he said they had several teams who had mobile metal detectors. i presumed he meant near carnival locations but maybe they think brixton has need for it.

[editor]

Metal detectors I expected. But handguns and machine guns?!!

(Pics to come shortly)

[Dubversion]

well the knife arches are going to be popping up here and there indefinitely (i've just done some work for TfL about it). I guess around Carnival time it gets stepped up a bit.

[gaijingirl]

they must now have knife detector dogs now.


Well I imagine they're for drugs... ;)

They've had guns the other times I've seen them too.

[Donna Ferentes]

Could it have been a drill?No, I think he said machine guns.

[memespring]

it was for the carnival believe it or not - I asked a PCSO what was going on when I walked past about 3:30 ish. I thought the police presence outside was pretty intense (machine gun(!) - only 1 though I think, but maybe more inside), but inside the body of the station there were loads of coppers and they were searching everybodys bags.

[editor]

Scanning passengers at Brixton

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/features/images/police-tube-02.jpg

And check out the cops with both handguns and machine guns! Well 'ardcore.

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/features/images/police-tube-03.jpg

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/features/brixton-tube.html

[Bob_the_lost]

ahem, submachine guns. ;)

[Loki]

ahem, submachine guns. ;)

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n238/Loki_u75/ianpointing2k.jpg ;)

Obv. they were concerned of a terror attack on the carnival then?

[aurora green]

Cool on the spot photography ed. I wished I'd had my camera when coming home from Hyde park today, we saw 11 :eek: seperate incidents of young black men being stopped by gangs of poilce...

[editor]

ahem, submachine guns. ;)
Whatever they're 'kin called, they're scarey as fuck and I counted at least three of them at the station.

[memespring]

I think I might toddle up to the next CPCG meeting and see if there was any reason/consultation on this. I know they need to keep the troouble down at the carnival, but I really dont like seeing coppers with guns like that about without good reason.

[lang rabbie]

Similar sorts of police numbers at King's X this afternoon as I returned (where Vic line travellers from both Brixton and Tottenham need to pass through a set of gates to catch the Circle line.)

There's obviously a serious effort this year to keep Carnival free from knives and guns - and the Met announced this last week.

Sadly, there are folk in Brixton and Stockwell stupid enough to set out from South London carrying one or the other. :(

[detective-boy]

... and at least three armed police at the top of the stairs carrying pistols and machine guns!
It sounds like the standard roving metal detector roadshow, perhaps beefed-up a bit as part of the Carnival thing this weekend.

Three armed coppers = one armed response vehicle - I have seen them deployed with the metal detector at some other places (if someone has a knife and starts waving it about then they would be called so it makes sense to have them there already - only they have Tasers in the Met area as well). The "machine guns" were probably Heckler and Koch MP5 semi-carbines - standard issue to all ARV crews in the Met (and exactly as seen at Heathrow on patrolling officers there) along with a Glock pistol.

Equally it could have been coincidence - knife lot there anyway and a routine call to which the ARV would have responded anyway (e.g. an armed suspect running into a tube station further up the line or something).

[detective-boy]

Cool on the spot photography ed. I wished I'd had my camera when coming home from Hyde park today, we saw 11 :eek: seperate incidents of young black men being stopped by gangs of poilce...
And the street population of black -v- any other race at this particular time was ... ?

[editor]

The "machine guns" were probably Heckler and Koch MP5 semi-carbines - standard issue to all ARV crews in the Met (and exactly as seen at Heathrow on patrolling officers there) along with a Glock pistol.Cheers for the info.


I have to say those guns made me feel *very* uncomfortable.

[laptop]

Scanning passengers at Brixton


http://www.urban75.org/brixton/features/images/police-tube-03.jpg

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/features/brixton-tube.html

Those look to me like cops showing an armed presence, not on a particular mission - this based simply on observation of how they behave at airports, etc. compared to the lot at Parliament who are much more watchful and observant.

At Carnival, there was a lot of presence-showing too: coming back early at around 6:30 there were at least three lines of yellowjackets across the road, filtering people through. Not armed, that I saw.

[Stobart Stopper]

I have to say those guns made me feel *very* uncomfortable.
Come and live near us in leafy Redbridge. No cops with guns here.:D ;)
Not very interesting though.

[Stobart Stopper]

Scanning passengers at Brixton

.

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/features/images/police-tube-03.jpg

That one second from left needs to go to the gym IMO.Porker!

[laptop]

That one second from left needs to go to the gym IMO.Porker!

You... know him?

[aurora green]

And the street population of black -v- any other race at this particular time was ... ?

I cant imagine it happening, had the street population been different. It certainly wasn't a normal occurrance. I found it quite disturbing.
It was certainly very intimidating, can't have done much for community relations. Totally OTT.

[tarannau]

The cynical side of me wondered just how many people were caught with knives, as opposed to being arrested with a bit of weed on the way to carnival.

Some serious weaponry and a ridiculous number of police around really, including numerous unsmiling heavily armed cops and the sound of dogs constantly barking. Total overkill - folks were still moaning about it hours afterwards.

A few policemen can add a reassuring presence. Flooding the station with coppers, dogs and guns seems an unnecessarily intimidating step, particularly given the history of the area and the fact it was meant to be a celebratory carnival day. I'd far rather they had a few resources on the ground most days rather than using this insensitive, willy-waving show of force very occasionally. Meanwhile, just a few yards away, the dealing crew were in full force in Coldharbour Lane, business unaffected...

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Carnival? So that's what it was for. Thought it might be.

Saw the police when I was going past at 4.00pm on way to IWM. Thought it was totally over the top.

As for the guns etc., I'm sure anyone who works in Whitehall/Victoria area will tell you that that's the norm around here :(

[Iemanja]

There were similar scenes in Highbury & Islington on Saturday... :( (police, metal detectors...)

[Gixxer1000]

I saw it and was reassured despite being an "obvious" candidate for stop and search but then I remember the bad old days of Carnival with kids running amok with machetes so I dont have a problem with robust policing.

[Donna Ferentes]

I have a problem with submachine guns in enclosed spaces full of people. What are they going to do, open up on the commuters?

[Gixxer1000]

I have a problem with submachine guns in enclosed spaces full of people. What are they going to do, open up on the commuters?
I guess machetes arent standard issue in the met:rolleyes:

[rascal]

i dislike the excessive show of force. I initially thought it was some ahem national security thingy. I dislike seeing police carrying guns without knowing why. Maybe they should just put up a big poster to explain their motives to the public. I am worried that one day people will stop even questioning why the police are armed.

[Donna Ferentes]

I guess machetes arent standard issue in the met:rolleyes:Your point escapes me, as mine appears to have escaped you.

[Magneze]

Came out of the tube around 4pm today to find a ton of cops in the station, police dogs, travellers being directed through an airport style, full body metal detector and at least three armed police at the top of the stairs carrying pistols and machine guns!

Anyone know what brought this immense show of near-military force out on display?Interesting, a similar thing was set up at Highbury & Islington tube on Saturday when I went through. Some youths were being directed through the metal detectors whereas all the codgers strolled past. Guess which group I fitted into ... :(

[chegrimandi]

editor: did the gun cops not mind you taking their pictures?!

:eek:

[Minnie_the_Minx]

editor: did the gun cops not mind you taking their pictures?!

:eek:


Why should they?:confused: It's not like they're the SAS :D

[chegrimandi]

Why should they?:confused: It's not like they're the SAS :D

cops generally while loving to take photos of everyone else with impunity aren't normally quite so keen to reciprocate.

[laptop]

Why should they?:confused: It's not like they're the SAS :D

That is the question that a Nottingham photographer will be putting to a court on 17 October (http://www.londonfreelance.org/fl/0607tash.html)...

[bluestreak]

Why should they?:confused: It's not like they're the SAS :D

the police do not like people taking pictures of them.

still, i learnt the difference between here and france last weekend - over here if you're taking pictures of them misbehaving they'll threaten you with arrest. in france they don't even bother lying to you, one says "because i say so" and the other gets his baton out.

[bluestreak]

so anyway, how many weapons did they find?

[Minnie_the_Minx]

cops generally while loving to take photos of everyone else with impunity aren't normally quite so keen to reciprocate.


You just pretend you're a tourist having your photo taking with a nice friendly British cop


















With a big fuck-off gun in his hand ;)

[aurora green]

That is the question that a Nottingham photographer will be putting to a court on 17 October (http://www.londonfreelance.org/fl/0607tash.html)...

:eek: poor old Tash eh?
Let's hope they don't go through with it. He'll have loads of support if they do though.

[Gixxer1000]

so anyway, how many weapons did they find?
The point is people were deterred from carrying once word got round which in itself is a success but hey Fuck the Police eh:rolleyes:

[tarannau]

The point is people were deterred from carrying once word got round which in itself is a success but hey Fuck the Police eh:rolleyes:

How do you know they were deterred? Sounds like you're guessing. My suspicion is that anyone carrying something towards the station would see the huge number of police vehicles, barking dogs and loitering policemen and turn the other way. Stockwell's only a short walk away after all - it's hardly going to deter the determined knife carrier is it.

We're not saying fuck the police at all, more like fuck all this posturing and inefficient use of police resources. It's all show, little efficacy.

[detective-boy]

I cant imagine it happening, had the street population been different. It certainly wasn't a normal occurrance. I found it quite disturbing.
It was certainly very intimidating, can't have done much for community relations. Totally OTT.
My point was that it seemed clear it was something to do with the comings and goings from the Carnival ... which has a higher than normal proportion of black visitors. So cops stopping and speaking to lots of black people as part of the policing of the carnival criowd is not exactly unexpected.

[detective-boy]

That is the question that a Nottingham photographer will be putting to a court on 17 October (http://www.londonfreelance.org/fl/0607tash.html)...
Sounds like it may be something rather more than simply taking photographs. But it may shed some light on the power of the police to seize cameras, etc as evidence which is very unclear (see the OldSkoolRaver saga thread). Best result (for clarity) would be conviction and appeal, otherwise we would just have a magistrates decisoon which sets no actual precedent at all - can't see a prosecution appeal on a point of law if there is an acquittal so this would be the only way of getting it in front of the Appeal Courts.

[detective-boy]

How do you know they were deterred?
You can never know what you've prevented. But ask any crim and they will tell you that robust policing activity does deter them. From time to time crime statistics will show it - see the displacement of crime from area to area when there is differential policing (and off the range of the CCTV cameras). And there are lots of examples of people dropping knives / drugs / whatever or turning vehicles round on seeing check points.

I think most people would rather have some visible activity to deter weapons from an event like Carnival which has been a focus for steaming gangs armed with knives and guns in the past. And I know the police would rather have a load of hassle and no armed robberies / murders that no hassle and a book full of sewrious crimes and two bodies in the morgue like a few years ago.

[Gixxer1000]

My suspicion is that anyone carrying something towards the station would see the huge number of police vehicles, barking dogs and loitering policemen and turn the other way. .
Well done:) thats pretty much what happened except it was more organised than that, it actually provided a welcome excuse for a lot of kids not to take knives or guns to the carnival without losing face, dont underestimate the power of peer pressure.;)

[editor]

My point was that it seemed clear it was something to do with the comings and goings from the Carnival .Not to me, it wasn't

[tarannau]

I think most people would rather have some visible activity to deter weapons from an event like Carnival which has been a focus for steaming gangs armed with knives and guns in the past. And I know the police would rather have a load of hassle and no armed robberies / murders that no hassle and a book full of sewrious crimes and two bodies in the morgue like a few years ago.

I don't think anyone would argue with some visible activity as a wise precaution for carnival. I object, however, to the sheer scale and overbearing nature of the while operation.

It also struck me as hugely wasteful. There seemed so many policemen (armed and unarmed) that it was hard not to believe there wasn't a better way of deploying such a mini army, perhaps at different locations. I appreciate the need for safety, but there seemed to be plenty of surplus officers doing little more than milling around and hindering the flow of people. As far as I could see anyone walking towards the station would see the logjam of vehicles and police outside the station and wander towards Stockwell where no such deterrent seemed to be in place.

I suspect it was meant to be reassuring. One look at the faces around my fellow travellers suggested it wasn't. It kind of drains the enthusiasm for a street party when you're surrounded by numerous unsmiling policemen holding big guns, inefficiently shuffling people around.

[Gixxer1000]

I don't think anyone would argue with some visible activity as a wise precaution for carnival. I object, however, to the sheer scale and overbearing nature of the while operation.
.
You obviously didnt see the size of some of the crews' going through, some of them seemed to be twenty + strong. What do you think is an appropriate leveling of policing when you're managing those numbers?
Didnt seem to be any aggro IMO as I went past most were resigned to it - similar to a local derby game- a necesary evil.

[Donna Ferentes]

You obviously didnt see the size of some of the crews' going through, some of them seemed to be twenty + strong. What do you think is an appropriate leveling of policing when you're managing those numbers?Conceivably, "not having weapons which could not be used without incurring serious casualties among the innocent".

[joffle]

Out of interest what happens if you are caught with a knife?? Are you arrested, or just the weapon conviscated?? And what constitutes a "knife"??

I only ask coz i was wondering around london last week with a Swiss army Knife in my bag from camping a few weeks ago. Would i have been a criminal???

[TonkaToy]

Conceivably, "not having weapons which could not be used without incurring serious casualties among the innocent".

Correct me if I'm wrong anyone. As detective boy said, the sub machine guns are standard issue to the ARVs. They can't leave those sub machine guns in a vehicle unattended so they would have to carry them. They also can't leave them back at the police station, on case they need to be called to an incident where they are needed.

Also, those weapons have more than 1 mode of operation, by default, when the safety catch is switched off, those guns only fire a single shot. I'm as sure as I can be that they have to throw a switch or a catch to have it fire like sub machine gun.

[memespring]

by default, when the safety catch is switched off, those guns only fire a single shot.

that's some safety catch :eek:

[Kanda]

I think what Tonka means, is that if you flick the safety off, it defaults to single shot mode, regardless if it was in Semi-Auto mode before the safety was switched on. You have to actually switch to Semi-Auto fire AFTER taking the safety off. If yanno what I mean.... (Pretty sure when safety is on, no shots can be fired, as expected)

[tarannau]

You obviously didnt see the size of some of the crews' going through, some of them seemed to be twenty + strong. What do you think is an appropriate leveling of policing when you're managing those numbers?
Didnt seem to be any aggro IMO as I went past most were resigned to it - similar to a local derby game- a necesary evil.

Erm, do you really think I didn't 'see the size of some of the crews'(sic) going through?' I can't speak for police procedure, but I've helped organise security for a number of events - generally it's not seen as necessary to swamp and outnumber the numbers passing through 'just in case.' As I've said, I can understand some hesitance on the police's part, but this was overkill - I refuse to believe that 10, perhaps even 5 officers, officers couldn't efficiently man one metal detecting gate. The others acted as a hinderance in many ways, getting in the way of folks - you don't expect to see 20 odd bouncers in front of a club doorway for example, all duplicating tasks. Why can't they have far fewer officers in view - preferably the few with some degree of customer/public facing skills and the ability to smile - and rely on calling for backup if necessary?

BTW, 'resigned to it' is far from tacitly approving the operation and neither should a carnival crowd be considered in any way similar to a local derby game. Nor is a lack of aggro at the time necessarily indicative of a good operation - the lingering bad feeling at the wasteful and intimidating scale of the whole rigamarole adds to already negative perceptions about the way police operate. This wasn't community policing by consent or a 'necessary evil', this was an unnecessary and inefficient show of force - it shouldn't take a mini occupying army to shepherd people through one security gate.

[Mrs Magpie]

I saw this as well. I don't think it was solely the tube. Two single decker buses were pulled over and empty and sitting by the traffic lights by the tube.

[Gixxer1000]

:)

[detective-boy]

I appreciate the need for safety, but there seemed to be plenty of surplus officers doing little more than milling around and hindering the flow of people.
I take your point - they do tend to do overkill sometimes - Health & Safety considerations don't help - there is a beliefe you have to be able to deal with every "what if .." no matter how unlikely.

And the downside of bored officers is they tend to get involved when the don't need to and escalate things - same principle ass a van full of eight or ten coppers turning up at a call which only needs one or two - strong supervisors keep the rest in the van, weak ones let them all out and suddenly they find problems that aren't really there. :(

[detective-boy]

Out of interest what happens if you are caught with a knife?? Are you arrested, or just the weapon conviscated?? And what constitutes a "knife"??
Having a "knife" is not an offence. Having an offensive weapon - anything MADE, ADAPTED or INTENDED for causing injury - is (most weapon type knive (flick, combat, lock) fall in the made category. All could fall in the intended with the necessary state of mind. Having a "sharply bladed article" is - only standard exceptuion is a folding pocket knife with cutting edge lass than 3".

That would probably cover your Swiss Army knife. Otherwise if you have a "reasonable excuse" (use for work, martial arts training, fishing, etc. (at appropriate times/places!!)) there is a general defence to both offences but it is up to you to prove it (on balance of probabilities).

And most people with offensive weapons would be arrested / charged. Some may just be confiscated, but not many as there is no real power to do that - it's arrest/report for summons or nothing

[detective-boy]

I'm as sure as I can be that they have to throw a switch or a catch to have it fire like sub machine gun.
I believe fully automatic is still blocked on police weapons - single shot or short burst (3, I think) are the only options.

[detective-boy]

Not to me, it wasn't
I didn't think aurora green was talking about the Brixton Tube Station thing - they mentioned seeing numerous black youths being stopped "on the way back from Hyde Park" - I'd assumed that it was nearer there than Brixton.

[William of Walworth]

That is the question that a Nottingham photographer will be putting to a court on 17 October (http://www.londonfreelance.org/fl/0607tash.html)...


:eek: poor old Tash eh?
Let's hope they don't go through with it. He'll have loads of support if they do though.

I want to keep an eye on that case and find out more about it.

About 15 years ago, Tash sued the Wilts (?) Police for labelling him a dealer in a private Police memo that was leaked to him, and then he WON. I can't believe this is unknown to the present cops ... Tash also has loads of stuff on his site about the extent the Police take pix themselves of protesters, Travellers, activists, etc. -- this latest thing seems to be all about him taking pictures of the Police, they don't like that ....
see 'Surveillance Gallery' on Tash's website here (http://tash.gn.apc.org/INDEX.htm)

</derail>

[William of Walworth]

I don't think anyone would argue with some visible activity as a wise precaution for carnival. I object, however, to the sheer scale and overbearing nature of the while operation.

It also struck me as hugely wasteful. There seemed so many policemen (armed and unarmed) that it was hard not to believe there wasn't a better way of deploying such a mini army, perhaps at different locations. I appreciate the need for safety, but there seemed to be plenty of surplus officers doing little more than milling around and hindering the flow of people. As far as I could see anyone walking towards the station would see the logjam of vehicles and police outside the station and wander towards Stockwell where no such deterrent seemed to be in place.

I suspect it was meant to be reassuring. One look at the faces around my fellow travellers suggested it wasn't. It kind of drains the enthusiasm for a street party when you're surrounded by numerous unsmiling policemen holding big guns, inefficiently shuffling people around.

Spot on -- not reassuring at all. I'm glad I wasn't around and didn't see it, I'd have been well pissed off.

[dogmatique]

Sniffer dogs at Oxford Circus today, seemingly concentrating on those of an asian or arab appearance (or at least when I went through they were questioning two asian youths, and searching two others.).

[Plastic Bathmat]

Aye, the whole thing was pretty nuts. Been living in Brixton over a year now and never seen anything on that scale - I agree with Tarranau, the number of police and their associated vans and cars was just ridiculous. They also had control over the streets up to 100m either side of the station according to the guy I spoke to when going through the metal detector. Not sure what the sniffer dogs were looking for exactly, but I had some smoke on me for carnival and despite standing less than a meter away from 2 of them they didn't react.

Still, most of the ones I saw were pleasant enough, and at the time I was there they seemed to be making some effort to ensure they passed a decent cross-section of society through the checks. Having said that though, if anyone was actually seriously carrying they'd have run off the instant they saw the mass of squad cars outside; I contemplated it but decided I couldn't be bothered walking up to Stockwell for the sake of a couple of spliffsworth.

[bluestreak]

The point is people were deterred from carrying once word got round which in itself is a success but hey Fuck the Police eh:rolleyes:

how did word get around?

it was an honest question, and actually i was going to formulate my opinion on the validity of the operation based on the answer.

of course, the validity of your answer is somewhere around nil, so why not fuck off somewhere where morons are appreciated, eh?

[bluestreak]

Well done:) thats pretty much what happened except it was more organised than that, it actually provided a welcome excuse for a lot of kids not to take knives or guns to the carnival without losing face, dont underestimate the power of peer pressure.;)

so what you're saying is that kids have some sort of underground network whereby they all call round and ensure that no-one goes through station X when the rozzers are there? all the youth of brixton of course know each other.

[bluestreak]

so can anyone at all tell me if any dangerous potential criminals were caught?

and was the crime rate at carnival this year any different to give us an indicator of the effectiveness of these actions?

[detective-boy]

so can anyone at all tell me if any dangerous potential criminals were caught?

and was the crime rate at carnival this year any different to give us an indicator of the effectiveness of these actions?
You can never prove the effectiveness of this sort of activity which has a largely deterrent effect. Everyone knows that visible police activity does deter crime to some extent. No-one knows how much though, and you will NEVER prove it - you simply can't.

[Gixxer1000]

how did word get around?

it was an honest question, and actually i was going to formulate my opinion on the validity of the operation based on the answer.

of course, the validity of your answer is somewhere around nil, so why not fuck off somewhere where morons are appreciated, eh?

*PLONK*

[memespring]

I went to the CPCG (Lambeth Community Police Consultative Group) meeting earlier and this dominated what became a fairly electric meeting. Lambeth police were due to give their report on what they have been doing recently, but got stuck on the first power point slide when this came up (they only on slide 2 of 60 when I left an hour later). In summary:

It was a British Transport Police operation, aparently a result of human intelegence ordered by bronze comand (?), and in honour of the carnival. BTP were inside the station, the MET outside.

It is very unclear if Lambeth police knew anything about it in advance. Reading between the lines they didnt, and I would guess arent very happy about it. But that's just my reading of it. Lambeth seemed quite embaresed by the whole thing as far as I could tell, and noted the general resentment to the operation.

BTP apparently did a community assesment in advance (as required), but it doesnt seem to have worked in this case (given the general reaction).

The number of arrests was tiny (I think 2 were mentioned, but am not 100%)

There was particular focus at the meeting on what happened to a group of somali lads who were stopped and searched. When they were being searched the armed police approached them directly and shat the kids up a bit. Someone at the meeting asked for the benifit of the record if there was any specific intellegence on somali gangs or if they had been stopped for the hell of it. The questioner had attempted to take a picture of the iincident with the somalis, but were told not to by the police (you got off lightly Ed.)

Other things that came up were:

1) the general cleverness of this kind of operation <gangmember with big knife in pocket sees burly CO19 officers outside tube station and decides to get the bus instead>

2) what the fuck would have happened if a gun went off in a crowded train station

3) the general impact of this kind of operation onlocal people's attitudes to policing and stop and search.

4) Are we up for more of the same / was this a dry run etc.

5) Without the guns this kind of operation in Brixton would normally have been met with some kind of public display of disatisfaction, but with the guns many people were quite scared.

The thing I didnt get to ask, but wanted to (lots of people with hand in the air) was, even if this operation was justified why did the armed police have to be on the door rather than in their armed response unit?

The CPCG people are taking a few issues forward and there was talk about calling the firearms people in to talk aboout how they handle things like this in the future.

[laptop]

It all starts to make a lot more sense.

It was a British Transport Police operation,

Ah, that explains the belly :D

aparently a result of human intelligence ordered by bronze comand (?),

Eh? One of the third tier of BTP command for the day's operations ordered this? Andy Trotter (ex- Public Order at the Yard) wasn't informed?

BTP apparently did a community assesment in advance (as required), but it doesn't seem to have worked in this case

I vaguely recall a recent report about BTP promising to find a "community" to consult.

This operation kind of points up the reason for this - them behaving like a militia. Who do they see as their "community"? Evading-Standards-reading commuters?

Lambeth seemed quite embarrassed by the whole thing as far as I could tell.

You bet.

[Plastic Bathmat]

This operation kind of points up the reason for this - them behaving like a militia. Who do they see as their "community"? Evading-Standards-reading commuters?


I'm pretty sure that's exactly who most police see as their "community".

[laptop]

I'm pretty sure that's exactly who most police see as their "community".

Many... but the operational point is that the Met districts (as institutions at least) have been forced to recognise the reality of policing by consent - whereas BTP is institutionally a roaming pack of dullards.

[bluestreak]

You can never prove the effectiveness of this sort of activity which has a largely deterrent effect. Everyone knows that visible police activity does deter crime to some extent. No-one knows how much though, and you will NEVER prove it - you simply can't.

but surely there are indicators. for example, if the operation was designed not to catch criminals but deter gangs of armed kids from going to carnival, were crime rates noticably down this year? if so, you could say that this wide spread operation could hae had some use. if not, then there is no deterant effect really.

plus if they caught a handful of really nasty bastards or removed a few serious weapons from the streets even for an evening then they could also say that it had a good reason.

i'm not trying to say that visible policing doesn't work, nor request stats for something that no-one can count (how many crimes didn't happen today :) ) but something like this is more than jsut visible policing surely? or was it a coincidence that on carnival day there were numerous examples of this?

[bluestreak]

*PLONK*

i recognise that noise. that's the sound of a right-winger's brain trying to come up with something witty.

[detective-boy]

but surely there are indicators. for example, if the operation was designed not to catch criminals but deter gangs of armed kids from going to carnival, were crime rates noticably down this year? if so, you could say that this wide spread operation could hae had some use. if not, then there is no deterant effect really.

plus if they caught a handful of really nasty bastards or removed a few serious weapons from the streets even for an evening then they could also say that it had a good reason.

i'm not trying to say that visible policing doesn't work, nor request stats for something that no-one can count (how many crimes didn't happen today :) ) but something like this is more than jsut visible policing surely? or was it a coincidence that on carnival day there were numerous examples of this?
You can certainly provide indicators but they will never be proof - anyone minded to say "it was a waste of tinme / over the top" will simply say "yeah, but that bloke with the kinfe you nicked may never have committed an offence with it anyway" or "yeah, but there might have been less crimes this year because the stewards were better / the sun was out / whatever and it was nothing to do with your operation".

My understanding is that the operations were specifically designed to (a) deter people from carrying weapons to carnival and (b) to try and catch some people carrying weapons to carnival (they sometimes have plain clothes spotters watching peoples reaction as they see the obvious activity and anyone ditching anything / turning round and walking away or whatever gets pulled anyway - don;t know if they were doing that at Brixton or not). Haven't seen any results - perhaps a question could / should be asked at the CPCG ?

[bluestreak]

there will always be arguments, but surely it's up to each person to make their own mind up. some people will always think of a reason why the pigs were wrong, and some will argue that up is down if a copper says it is. most people i suspect will make up their own minds based on available evidence.

cos at the moment it looks like you're saying that "there is no evidence to suggest that these actions do anything but anyone who says they don't is wrong", which i think is a bit silly. IYSWIM.

[tarannau]

cos at the moment it looks like you're saying that "there is no evidence to suggest that these actions do anything but anyone who says they don't is wrong", which i think is a bit silly. IYSWIM.

And, let's be honest, anyone using the excuse 'but we can't really tell how effective it is' in a commercial environment and still dedicating such a huge amount of resources (and money) into an unproven deterrent would be crucified and out of a job faster than you can say 'boo'

Ok, so it's not America, but the phrase 'if you can't measure it, then it's not worth it' is still a prevalent business mantra. I can't believe they didn't have some measurables, no matter how interpreted and dubious, for an operation of this scale. That'd be, frankly, hugely unprofessional and entirely useless going forward.

[Gixxer1000]

Ok, so it's not America, but the phrase 'if you can't measure it, then it's not worth it' is still a prevalent business mantra. I can't believe they didn't have some measurables, no matter how interpreted and dubious, for an operation of this scale. That'd be, frankly, hugely unprofessional and entirely useless going forward.

Thats exactly why the NHS/police force is fucked, rake of middle management running around ticking boxes and "measuring things":mad: Its why you dont see bobbies on the beat anymore -no measurable benefit you see.

[Mrs Magpie]

Its why you dont see bobbies on the beat anymore -no measurable benefit you see.Today I saw a lone policeman walking through my estate. I live in central Brixton and although I see plenty of police whizzing along the roads at high speed giving it plenty of blue + sirens, I see lots of policemen on the beat too.....

[detective-boy]

cos at the moment it looks like you're saying that "there is no evidence to suggest that these actions do anything but anyone who says they don't is wrong", which i think is a bit silly. IYSWIM.
Not quite. I'm saying there is evidence which suggests that they make a difference but, especially as lots of it is anecdotal, it certainly doesn't prove they do.

In such a case I believe it is reasonable to rely on the professional judgment of people working in the field - in this case professional police officers - and, in my experience, they without exception support the existence of the deterrent effect to some extent or another.

[detective-boy]

And, let's be honest, anyone using the excuse 'but we can't really tell how effective it is' in a commercial environment and still dedicating such a huge amount of resources (and money) into an unproven deterrent would be crucified and out of a job faster than you can say 'boo'

Which is why senior police officers who subscribe to business models (like Paul Condon) bin anything which can't be measured.

And which is why "bobbies on the beat" are constantly argued about - most people accept that they do make a difference in terms of deterrent but, because you can't prove that in any way, they are always on offer for business-oriented bosses.

[tarannau]

Which is why senior police officers who subscribe to business models (like Paul Condon) bin anything which can't be measured.

And which is why "bobbies on the beat" are constantly argued about - most people accept that they do make a difference in terms of deterrent but, because you can't prove that in any way, they are always on offer for business-oriented bosses.


That's a bit of a fallacy in my book. It's fairly easy to build a plausible 'case' for bobbies on the beat, if only because public opinion continually suggests that they'd like more officers on the street and more importantly that they feel 'reassured' by their presence. That needs to be balanced against, if I remember correctly a report I read a long time ago (DB may know more) that the chances of a beat bobby stumbling onto a crime are statistically tiny.

Besides it shouldn't be beyond the bounds of credibility to track the effectiveness of beat bobbies in some way. It shouldn't be impossible to compare the crime rates in 'safer neighbourhoods' (or whatever the latest terminology is) areas with beat patrols against those without such active coverage, weighted statistically across the region. It's not rudimentary, but it's not particularly advanced in methodology terms either - with a little commitment, forward planning and, crucially I guess, some accurate and coordinated information collection/infrastructure it should be more than possible. Failing that, even a regional test could provide important some important indications of the success of any deterrent effect.

Nobody is suggesting that qualitative or quantitative measurement should be what solely drives policy. However I'm wary of people who claim that what they do can't be effectively analysed, or that's it's simply inconvenient - generally that tends to imply a reluctance to change practices or there's a operational concern that needs hiding somewhere.

And, in the example of this specific thread, I don't believe that any responsible person, let alone what seems to be a Bronze Commander on a whim, should be able to kick off a massive military-style operation like this one at the station with no proof of effectiveness, or prior trial. Especially when it seems to have been done without the support of the local community and even the prior knowledge of the local police. It was a huge commitment of resources that I feel could have been more positively used elsewhere. If lessons weren't learnt or some form of proper appraisal about the operation's 'success' wasn't undertaken, then it was even more of a shambolic and insensitive kneejerk operation to carnival than I first thought.

[detective-boy]

However I'm wary of people who claim that what they do can't be effectively analysed, or that's it's simply inconvenient - generally that tends to imply a reluctance to change practices or there's a operational concern that needs hiding somewhere.

And, in the example of this specific thread, I don't believe that any responsible person, let alone what seems to be a Bronze Commander on a whim, should be able to kick off a massive military-style operation like this one at the station with no proof of effectiveness, or prior trial. Especially when it seems to have been done without the support of the local community and even the prior knowledge of the local police. It was a huge commitment of resources that I feel could have been more positively used elsewhere. If lessons weren't learnt or some form of proper appraisal about the operation's 'success' wasn't undertaken, then it was even more of a shambolic and insensitive kneejerk operation to carnival than I first thought.
I think the statistic you're remembering was something like a patrolling officer stubles across a crime in progress once every 17 years!

But that sort of statistic is exactly the sort of evidence which mitigates against the uniformed patrols which you (rightly) point out are massively popular with the public (but less so when they actually DO something rather than just wandering about - most of which is (inevitably) relatively minor in character!).

I'm not arguing that we couldn't or shouldn't research the effectiveness of different policing tactics - quite the contrary, I think there should be far MORE research into what works. My point is simply that the type of evidence for the deterrent effects of all sorts of tactics tends not to be accepted for the reasons I have posted previously.

As for the specific operation, I doubt very much whether it was the decision of "a Bronze Commander on a whim". A Bronze (operational) commander only exists if there is a formal command structure in place, with a Silver (tactical) and a Gold (strategic) commander in place. It would either be a routine deployment as part of a series of pretty random deployments of that group (there have been other threads about similar deployments at Kings Cross and Herne Hill (I think) in the past few months. Or it was a specific part of a much larger, pan-London operation aimed specifically at preventing / reducing Carnival violence. In either case the deterrent effect cannot be judged simply on that one deployment - the whole operation would need to be judged together.

And the fact that we don't know what, if any, statistics were gathered to judge the effectiveness of the operation doesn't mean there aren't any (which is why I suggested a question at the CPCG may shed some light). I doubt if there is anything too complex though - the gathering of statistics usually comes under the heading of "Additional Bureaucracy"! Would probably be something like number of stops / searches / arrests / charges.

[bluestreak]

Thats exactly why the NHS/police force is fucked, rake of middle management running around ticking boxes and "measuring things":mad: Its why you dont see bobbies on the beat anymore -no measurable benefit you see.

i see bobbies on the beat every day actually. just wandering around brixton in their ones, twos and threes.

so how come you support the action this thread is about, which as d_b has said, the benefit of which cannot be measured, but mourn the loss of beat bobbies (which haven't actually been lost) blaming the same issue.

[bluestreak]

Not quite. I'm saying there is evidence which suggests that they make a difference but, especially as lots of it is anecdotal, it certainly doesn't prove they do.

In such a case I believe it is reasonable to rely on the professional judgment of people working in the field - in this case professional police officers - and, in my experience, they without exception support the existence of the deterrent effect to some extent or another.

fair enough :)

[Gixxer1000]

i see bobbies on the beat every day actually. just wandering around brixton in their ones, twos and threes.

so how come you support the action this thread is about, which as d_b has said, the benefit of which cannot be measured, but mourn the loss of beat bobbies (which haven't actually been lost) blaming the same issue.

Brain into gear before keyboard into action, young fella. I think you will find there isnt a contradiction and police presence at known crime hotspots dosent constitute a "beat",incidentally if beat bobbies havent been lost kindly name your local one. (Back onto ignore you go)

[bluestreak]

there is none so blind as those who will not see.

hey donna, can we have a nice rhyme about people who refuse to recognise contradictions in their worldview, and perhaps one that mocks the view that the whole of brixton is a crime hotspot, and also one that suggests one doesn't need to know the names of all your local nick in order to see them on the beat?

although i do know the name of urban75's resident beat officer. where is brian these days?

[tarannau]

Brain into gear before keyboard into action, young fella. I think you will find there isnt a contradiction and police presence at known crime hotspots dosent constitute a "beat",incidentally if beat bobbies havent been lost kindly name your local one. (Back onto ignore you go)

There was a picture of our 'neigbourhood team' posted in a local shop window, but I can't remember their names. Within hours some wag had drawn moustaches on and scribbled 'police is paedophiles' (sic). It didn't last very long.

I see plenty of coppers on the beat, although I do live fairly central in Brixton. Does it really matter that I don't know them by name? It's hardly a village atmosphere where people have traditionally wanted to know their pc by name?

[Gixxer1000]

'police is paedophiles' (sic).

Well those of us living in the relative leafy surburbia that is the environs of Brixton Hill (and having lived there considerably longer than 6 months:rolleyes: ie 45yrs), are suffering from displaced crime and no beat officers:(

[tarannau]

If it's any compensation, I used to live in Brixton Hill as a kid. We certainly had names for the local officers, but we didn't know any by name...

;)

[pooka]

Well those of us living in the relative leafy surburbia that is the environs of Brixton Hill (and having lived there considerably longer than 6 months:rolleyes: ie 45yrs), are suffering from displaced crime and no beat officers:(


Try here (http://www.met.police.uk/saferneighbourhoods/boroughs/lambeth/saferneighbourhoods.htm#00AYGA)

[Gixxer1000]

Try here (http://www.met.police.uk/saferneighbourhoods/boroughs/lambeth/saferneighbourhoods.htm#00AYGA)
Nice website, not seen any of Balhams finest on the streets of Brixton Hill though.

[RushcroftRoader]

There was a picture of our 'neigbourhood team' posted in a local shop window, but I can't remember their names. Within hours some wag had drawn moustaches on and scribbled 'police is paedophiles' (sic). It didn't last very long.

I see plenty of coppers on the beat, although I do live fairly central in Brixton. Does it really matter that I don't know them by name? It's hardly a village atmosphere where people have traditionally wanted to know their pc by name?

I met a blonde WPC called Lucy the other day and I have to say her presence in Brixton is very welcome!! :D ;)

[detective-boy]

Nice website, not seen any of Balhams finest on the streets of Brixton Hill though.
e-mail the nice sergeant, then. Tell them what your problems are. That's what they're supposed to be for. See what happens.