Urban Green Fair (free), June 17-18, Brockwell Park, CANCELLED???? [Archive]

William of Walworth

25-04-2006, 20:36

I suspect there remains a CHANCE it'll turn out to be not quite as bad as rumoured, BUT DJ Wrongspeed has no record at all, as far as I know, of being an irresponsible rumour monger, so I thought a thread of it's own would either confirm, or clarify, or (hopefully) even nail the story sooner and more effectively than if it remained buried in a general 'Lambeth is shit' thread.

This is pretty important if true.

Apologies for repeating so far unconfirmed rumour folks, but I feel an urgent need to KNOW ....

Some unanswered questions arising from DJ Wrongspeed's post :

Confirmation please. Source??

This is BEFORE the Elections,

Any chance of getting this twatbrained 'decision' reversed, after the election? Surely worthy of a court case?

Can it be relocated?? (Southwark??)

Does the same apply to the Lambeth Country Show?? ("other events"?? :confused: )

Was it Councillors, the Police or Lambeth Council permanent officers who made this decision??

William of Walworth

25-04-2006, 20:40

As gaijingirl posted on the other thread, there is nothing so far about the rumoured cancellation of this event on the newly set up official Urban Green Fair website (http://www.urbangreenfair.org.uk/) but I'm sure the collective might of Urban will be able to discuss/confirm/deny the rumour more quickly ...

William of Walworth

25-04-2006, 20:41

I'm PMing DJ Wrongspeed and another Urbanite who was involved in the organisation of this event ;) right now ...

Dan U

25-04-2006, 20:41

This is pretty important if true.

Apologies for repeating so far unconfirmed rumour folks, but I feel an urgent need to KNOW ....

Some unanswered questions arising from DJ Wrongspeed's post :

darn right it is

no country fare (only possibly i appreciate) = no owls :(

Brockwell Park has a rich history as a venue for interesting events. we already seem to have lost the cannabis festival (unless i have missed something)

wonder how many 'ticketed' events/wannabe weekend festivals appear again this summer? :mad:

gaijingirl

25-04-2006, 20:42

William of Walworth

25-04-2006, 20:46

Yeah, the Country Fair thing was, I freely admit, rank speculation on my part to force the discussion ;) :p (but also :( )

But if they cancel the Urban Green yet retain the Country Fair, surely the Council might end up legally liable for inconsistently applying their 'rules'??

We so much need to know more ...

Dan U

25-04-2006, 20:47

Yes but this is exactly what they made that other festival do last summer. The dancey charity one in Brockwell Park. They made them put up fences and gates the whole way around - even though it was a free festival. It caused no end of problems at the end getting rid of everyone. :(

I would be very surprised if the Country Fair wasn't happening though - that's Lambeth's own..

phew (country fair)

yeah H&S is a big issue, red tape wise, i'm sure theres an earner in it for lambeth as well.

ive got a copy of the H&S guide to setting up festivals etc - its quite a tome

gaijingirl

25-04-2006, 20:49

But if they cancel the Urban Green yet retain the Country Fair, surely the Council might end up legally liable for inconsistently applying their 'rules'??

...

Well last year there was that charity dancey festival thing - they made them put up fences the whole way round and have stewards - even though it was free.

There was that rubbish paying one that was loads of money to get into with no one very good at it (except for the Sunday there were a few decent people IIRC) - also had fences etc - but then it was paying so obviously they needed fences.

Then there was Lambeth Country Fair - which was free and open to all. It seems to me it's their new policy - unless you're the Country Fair you've to put up fences!!!

wiskey

25-04-2006, 20:49

Shane Collins from the Green Party has put an application into Lambeth council to hold an urban green fair in Brockwell Park in Brixton. . . . . . The application is due to be considered by Lambeth council at its meeting at Lambeth Town Hall in Brixton on Tuesday

maybe they said no

source ic south london (http://icsouthlondon.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0400lambeth/tm_objectid=16972573&method=full&siteid=50100&headline=festival-s-green-bid-name_page.html)

William of Walworth

25-04-2006, 20:51

Depending on facts, someone may need to look at Southwark's track record of licensing free festivals in Burgess Park. It's not a great park I admit, but that's besides the point right now. I'm talking of the Southwark Show of past years, and of the Latin Festival they had last August. Both huge events.

Never any suggestion of fences being needed there. The Latin Festival was not a direct Southwark Council thing either.

William of Walworth

25-04-2006, 20:53

Onket

25-04-2006, 20:54

I see, so this is that thing people were talking about.

I hope it goes ahead.

William of Walworth

25-04-2006, 20:55

I see, so this is that thing people were talking about.

I hope it goes ahead.

Looking unlikely, unless we hear any reassurance ... :(

wiskey

25-04-2006, 20:58

I see, so this is that thing people were talking about.

I hope it goes ahead.

yeah - i wasnt making it widely known just in case something like this happened.

oh bollox. i've had a look about on the net and its advertised everywhere from transdport2000 to christian gren groups. even the brockwell park site says its happening.

i hope we're wrong.

pylonator

25-04-2006, 20:59

gaijingirl

25-04-2006, 21:09

haha manik did the sound for that, maybe thats why they don't want anything else in brockwell park :D

But they (Lambeth) decided before the event went ahead - albeit at the last minute IIRC - to force the organisers to put up fences - at enormous expense. I helped steward it and the whole event went off really smoothly, although IMHO the fences caused many more problems than they solved. :mad: We were obliged to shut the gates up the hill near the tennis courts when the event had ended and make people walk back down the hill to exit through the gate by the Lido - regardless of the fact that many people lived over on Tulse Hill/Brixton Hill etc. It was a real pain with many drunk/otherwise not straight people getting quite pissed off about it. :(

Crispy

25-04-2006, 22:02

Aaargh shit like this makes me want to storm the council offices with pitchforks and things :mad:

William of Walworth

25-04-2006, 22:03

I wonder how much knowledge the organisars had in advance of the licence hearing this time, of how likely Lambeth were to repeat their insistence on fences?? :confused:

DJWrongspeed

25-04-2006, 22:13

nipsla

25-04-2006, 22:52

I'll leave Shane to comment here, the main point being that the organisers refused to bow to Lambeth's demand for a fence, hoping perhaps, that they'll see sense next year. :(

the licensing meet was tonight so full confirmed yes/no news will follow

Not sure what the status is now but I know that when I saw a certain prospective green candidate ( ;) ) in the Albert last week, he told me that Lambeth were demanding about £10k to cover the costs of a fence for the event. :eek:

Although this doesn't impact directly on the country fair it must be a worry as that is a fuckload of money to sort out for an event. :(

TeeJay

26-04-2006, 00:40

I will also leave Shane to comment officially but I can confirm that "the South London Urban Green Fair will not be taking place in Brockwell Park".

Lambeth are this year insisting that all events of over 2,000 people - except their own ones for some unstated reason (eg Lambeth Country Show) - are required to be fenced, whether free or paying, commercial or not-for-profit/community-based events.

This has impacted not just the Urban Green Fair but also several other events which have now pulled out of Lambeth due to this new "parks policy".

It is not even a "licensing issue" decided by the licensing committee - it is (as I understand it) an "executive decree" coming out of the "Parks and Green Open Spaces" department of the "Environment & Culture Directorate".

I am not going to comment any further right now - I will wait until Shane has had a chance to send out his press release and/or make a post here, which he should do tomorrow sometime (if not I will post up the official press release when I get it).

Just to note that there are also a few issues that need to be talked over and decided at an Urban Green Fair meeting on Friday by all the people who are helping put on the event so I feel that it is unfair to say too much more (eg about possibly changing the date, venue or putting on a different sized event later this summer) until various people involved with the event have had a chance to meet up and chat with each other and decide how we want to take things forward. We will be doing something however. Non illigitamus carborundum. ;)

rich!

26-04-2006, 01:07

Lambeth are this year insisting that all events of over 2,000 people - except their own ones for some unstated reason (eg Lambeth Country Show) - are required to be fenced, whether free or paying, commercial or not-for-profit/community-based events.

As a biznizhipi, this seems to me to be a point on which they are vulnerable.

The precise exploitation of this vulnerability is not something I am sure of the details of.

However, were the licensing authority to be informed of their crapulousness, then an event occurring at the County Show that would have been prevented by a fence would be the liability of the licensing authority?

I am sure there are no-win-no-fee lawyers in the Brixton area - perhaps a conversation about this discrepancy would be ... interesting?

[pm me if this is out of order, and I'll pull it]

TeeJay

26-04-2006, 02:26

free spirit

26-04-2006, 04:09

hello lambeth green fair peeps,

it's way off my patch, but if you need advice, copies of event manuals, or support from newcastle community green festival, a free environmental festival we've run for 12 years that last year had 12,000 people attend in an unfenced city centre park that's smaller than brockwell let me know.

If this is an edict coming down from parks dept it sounds to me like they're one of the councils that's got their knickers in a twist about the new licencing act. Essentially as it's been explained to us, when the new act is applied to council owned land a representative of the council needs to be licensee for the event, rather than the person actually running the festival being licensee.

This has caused chaos in council across the country as it basically means the parks departments are now being pressured to become the licensees for all events in their parks, with individual parks managers being liable for any problems, whereas in the past the event manager would be the licensee. This would explain why it is the parks dept that is insisting on events being fenced, basically they're playing it safe because it's now their necks on the line, and they ain't necessarily trained in event management.

The way newcastle council is handling it is to licence all parks permanently for the biggest event they can envisage holding in each park, they are then basically drawing up contracts with the same terms and conditions as the old licences would have had so essentially responsiblity is returned to the event organisers.

The guidance on this has by all accounts been utterly shit from government, with each council left to make it up as they go along. Essentially we had our first safety advisory group meeting a month ago & were told that the licensing departement still weren't clear themselves about how the new process was supposed to work, but that we'd definately get a licence some how... so if this is a new event I can understand why you might be having trouble.

the good thing is that once the licence has gone through the site is permanently licenced as long as you have council and police permission, the bad news is that if they fuck up on the licencing conditions in the first place they could be stuck with them for a long time... as may have happened with the all events needing to be fenced thing.

I very much doubt the local council are entirely to blame here, though they obviously could have sorted it out better, it's central government that fucked it up and local government who're trying to pick up the pieces... try to develop a relationship with the park manager, be sympathetic, win them round, make them trust you, maybe even run an event for less than 2000 with no fences this year to build up trust for next year... basically some park manager is now licensee for your event, so if you fuck up it could be him that ends up in court for it, so he needs to be pretty confident in you before he / she is going to put hisher neck on the line for you.

what this all basically means is that event organisers will have to work much more closely with the council and police in the planning of the event than in the past. Newcastle started this process 4 years ago, and we basically have to produce a 70 page event manual, then have multiple meetings with council, police, fire, st johns, ambulance, health and hygiene etc. to go through everything with a fine tooth combe until the safety advisory group eventually signs the event manual off... only then would we actually go for a licence (or as is the case now, be granted a licence automatically). This process was a nightmare the first year we did it, now it's dead relaxed and we've had no problems at all for ages...

shit it's 5am and I got my own fest to organise in 5 weeks :eek:

good luck

email me at admin@newcastlegreenfestival.org.uk if you need anything.

free spirit

26-04-2006, 04:17

If "too many people" turn up for the Lambeth Country Show (ie more than the number on their license) then they will presumably need a fence to keep them all out, and away from the facilities provided.

Somehow this will help things, because presumably if they are outside the fence they will magically not actually have any impact on Brockwell Park or neighbouring areas.

But for some reason Lambeth have decided that while "big" events need a fence, extremely big events (like their own) don't.

So actually, for the special case of the Lambeth Country Show they will not have a fence, because they can control numbers attending telepathically and when this fails they have a great big spaceship that can tractor-beam excess crowds and teleport them back home safely.

You may notice at some point there is a slight divergence with rationality and reality occuring.

You have now entered the Lambeth Twilight Zone.

ok just noticed this, basically the reasoning will be ]

1 - that lambeth country show is an established regular event with a good track record in terms of safety & numbers.

2 - it is actuallly run by the council (or trusted organisers) which means the council as licensee is actually in control of the event, rather than being licensee but in reality have no on the day control over the event.

In the past the council would sue the event organiser for breach of licence, and the event organiser would be liable for anyone sueing because of injury due to negligence etc. now the council could well be liable for being sued even if it's not their event.

it's bollocks, but if you understand the reasoning you may be able to work a way round it. trouble is that without a track record you may have problems convincing them :confused:

aurora green

26-04-2006, 06:46

You have now entered the Lambeth Twilight Zone.

Some of us have been living in it for years.... :rolleyes: ;)

William of Walworth

26-04-2006, 08:57

Excellent post from free spirit. Shane,TeeJay, others -- PLEASE PLEASE take notice of his offer of advice and expertise!!

I feel that it is unfair to say too much more (eg about possibly changing the date, venue or putting on a different sized event later this summer) until various people involved with the event have had a chance to meet up and chat with each other and decide how we want to take things forward. We will be doing something however.

<slightly selfish mode>

ARghhhhhhhhh!!! I really hope it doesn't come to a change of date!!!! :eek:

That would help aurora ;) but would almost certainly scupper it for quite a few others, what with so many other events going on .... :(

</selfish ... sorry :o >

Shane, TeeJay : remember though that I am still available for any assistance date willing

I will also leave Shane to comment officially but I can confirm that "the South London Urban Green Fair will not be taking place in Brockwell Park".

Not in Brockwell Park, eh?? ;)

Dan U

26-04-2006, 08:58

haha manik did the sound for that, maybe thats why they don't want anything else in brockwell park :D

:D

there in spain now anyway

eta - just read rest of the thread. this is complete and utter bollocks by lambeth. as i suspected this appears to be a deliberate ploy to scare off the community events through prohibitive costs and, i bet, replace them with events that cost £20 a day to see average bands in an ill attended environment.

wankers.

tarannau

26-04-2006, 09:22

Not this fencing lark again. Fuckers.

:(

As Gaijin has touched on, exactly the same happened to Fair4Life last year. Depite being a free festival trying to raise money for charity, the council insisted on a fence being added at a late stage and would not budge - afaik that was the first free event forced into having a fence.

The downsides were fairly obvious - the fence caused more crowd unrest than had it not been there, forcing people to detour around the site in search of an exit at the end and causing many arguments. Add to that I suspect it put a fair few people off entering in the first place, not to mention pissing off (non-festival) visitors to the park who couldn't take their normal way around the park. I can't think of one useful purpose it served - i was stewarding all day and heard nothing but complaints from all around.

The whole fence saga also pushed Fair4Life into the red. Rather than making a small contribution to charity, the cost of the fence ended up as a hefty loss to both promoters, who are just getting themselves up to financial respectability again. It's the main reason why they've had to regroup and put off the idea of getting Fair4Life off the ground until 2008 again.

And that was with them trying to save money on the fence by pretty much erecting the thing up themselves. For days afterwards a few poor tired fuckers were still dismantling and humping the thing down, just to add injury to financial loss.

The requirement for a fence was unnecessary, hugely costly and entirely counterproductive to a good free event - I'm really disappointed they're insisting on it again. I understand what FreeSpirit's saying about a good relationship with the council, which I believe was established with Fair4Life, but it doesn't bode well that they're still so inflexible on the fence - it's the one silly mandatory that I can't believe is in place, particularly after the council were onsite at Fair4Life and saw what an unnecessary, unloved pain in the arse the fence was.

tarannau

26-04-2006, 09:29

:D

there in spain now anyway

eta - just read rest of the thread. this is complete and utter bollocks by lambeth. as i suspected this appears to be a deliberate ploy to scare off the community events through prohibitive costs and, i bet, replace them with events that cost £20 a day to see average bands in an ill attended environment.

wankers.

That's a good point. With the fence requirement, it's unlikely to be economic to put on smaller community festivals.

The high set up and dismantling costs mean that it's prohibitively expensive to have a small event on one day. Looking at the potential costs for a new festival this year (not going ahead) it quickly became apparent that the only way we could afford to go ahead was to expand the site massively, count on a comparatively massive donation (at least £2 a person)/take on unwanted sponsorship, and/or run the thing for two days to try and offset the high set-up costs.

It's hardly ideal is it....

William of Walworth

26-04-2006, 09:44

Tarranau, did you investigate other locations in other, possibly less restrictive, boroughs?? ;) ;)

tarannau

26-04-2006, 09:59

Tarranau, did you investigate other locations in other, possibly less restrictive, boroughs?? ;) ;)

Not this time to be honest. Funds were always going to be tight and the prospect of having to jump through the hoops and establish a relationship with another council filled them with more dread than they could deal with atm.

wiskey

26-04-2006, 10:02

well this is all a bit crap isnt it.

i've had enough of brixton.

William of Walworth

26-04-2006, 10:14

Not this time to be honest. Funds were always going to be tight and the prospect of having to jump through the hoops and establish a relationship with another council filled them with more dread than they could deal with atm.

Thanks for that. It's a shame, and I hope by 2008 you can get your event to happen with somewhat fewer restrictions (see freespirit's post perhaps).

As you can easily guess though, my question wasn't solely aimed at you and Fair4Life ... :o

Crispy

26-04-2006, 10:19

well this is all a bit crap isnt it.

i've had enough of brixton.

Let's seccede :)

wiskey

26-04-2006, 10:21

:cool:

Dan U

26-04-2006, 12:00

That's a good point. With the fence requirement, it's unlikely to be economic to put on smaller community festivals.

The high set up and dismantling costs mean that it's prohibitively expensive to have a small event on one day. Looking at the potential costs for a new festival this year (not going ahead) it quickly became apparent that the only way we could afford to go ahead was to expand the site massively, count on a comparatively massive donation (at least £2 a person)/take on unwanted sponsorship, and/or run the thing for two days to try and offset the high set-up costs.

It's hardly ideal is it....

some friends are involved with the Ambient Picnic in Guildford and they had similar problems last year with Guildford Council demanding things - selling tickets in advance ONLY being one problem they encountered.

it used to be a free/donations event but they demanded fences and lots of security as well. there taking 2006 off afaik - which is a shame as its a great nfp community event - and trying to aim for 2007.

it becomes a self fullfilling prophecy - the higher demands the council make for alleged 'H&S reasons' then the measure you outline need to be considered and put in to place.

morphs a not for profit community event into something more commercial - often thereby alienating a lot of the people involved and who attend.

i dont want to sit on a Bacardi Bus :mad:

Radar

26-04-2006, 12:02

Let's seccede :)
Again ? (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041737/)

William of Walworth

26-04-2006, 12:16

some friends are involved with the Ambient Picnic in Guildford and they had similar problems last year with Guildford Council demanding things - selling tickets in advance ONLY being one problem they encountered.

it used to be a free/donations event but they demanded fences and lots of security as well. there taking 2006 off afaik - which is a shame as its a great nfp community event - and trying to aim for 2007.

it becomes a self fullfilling prophecy - the higher demands the council make for alleged 'H&S reasons' then the measure you outline need to be considered and put in to place.

morphs a not for profit community event into something more commercial - often thereby alienating a lot of the people involved and who attend.

i dont want to sit on a Bacardi Bus :mad:

Follow Strawberry Fair's example and find some COMMON LAND!!?? :confused: :D

nick

26-04-2006, 12:40

so is rush common common land? (not exactly ideally shaped I'll admit)

Dan U

26-04-2006, 12:49

Follow Strawberry Fair's example and find some COMMON LAND!!?? :confused: :D

in the centre of guildford? dont think there is any sadly..

half the point is the local community can all walk to it!

wiskey

26-04-2006, 12:52

so is rush common common land? (not exactly ideally shaped I'll admit)

lol it can be a really long thin festival :D

TeeJay

26-04-2006, 13:35

...when the new act is applied to council owned land a representative of the council needs to be licensee for the event, rather than the person actually running the festival being licensee.Shane is/was the licencee.

TeeJay

26-04-2006, 13:42

Shane, TeeJay : remember though that I am still available for any assistance date willingYou can assist by making sure that any information being posted or published is correct and has the thumbs up to go public, rather than rumours, gossip, wild speculation or information that has been passed on in confidence and that isn't meant to be repeated to everyone in Brixton or posted on public forums.

The best way of doing this is simply to PM, email or phone the people running the event *first* rather than posting stuff up first of all and making people run around having to deny and/or correct all the rumours.

This is exactly why some people have been withholding more details - because via chinese whispers, exaggeration, gossip and speculation the whole thing becomes a total mess which makes sorting out certain stuff even harder than it is in the first place.

Thank you for helping - having your festival listings thread here means that there is a central place and someone who is responsible and actually knows about the people and events involved.

Regarding picking dates: of course noone is going to schedule a Green fair during Glastonbury and Big Green for example, nor are they going to clash with Kingston Green fair or Camden Green Fair weekends, the final choice usually comes down to consulting with the crew involved (ie when they are free as most of the do other events each summer) and went the venue is free. In an ideal world it would be possible for consult the festivals calendar and pick a completely free weekend, but in reality you have to start with your own production crew (who - as I have said - have other jobs and events to put on). I know you keep hoping for a calendar that fits in perfectly with what you would want and all I can suggest is that you send Shane an email setting out all the festivals each year which you don't want his events to clash with: it might remind him of some dates that he was unaware of ... best to do this as early as possible - ideally the year before even (eg suggest dates now to shane for summer 2007).

g force

26-04-2006, 13:51

Contact Cllr Clare Whelan - she's in charge of parks I believe and responded to my last email within 5 minutes! I'll ask the other Cllr Whelan about it when he's back in work tomorrow.

William of Walworth

26-04-2006, 16:54

in the centre of guildford? dont think there is any sadly..

half the point is the local community can all walk to it!

True true, but I was posting a bit more generally anyway.

It was a rushed post earlier, but even with Guildford, there must surely be some sort of alternative site worth investigating, not necessarily within Guildford GB area, but .... ?? :confused:

William of Walworth

26-04-2006, 17:00

You can assist by making sure that any information being posted or published is correct and has the thumbs up to go public, rather than rumours, gossip, wild speculation or information that has been passed on in confidence and that isn't meant to be repeated to everyone in Brixton or posted on public forums.

The best way of doing this is simply to PM, email or phone the people running the event *first* rather than posting stuff up first of all and making people run around having to deny and/or correct all the rumours.

This is exactly why some people have been withholding more details - because via chinese whispers, exaggeration, gossip and speculation the whole thing becomes a total mess which makes sorting out certain stuff even harder than it is in the first place.

Thank you for helping - having your festival listings thread here means that there is a central place and someone who is responsible and actually knows about the people and events involved.

Regarding picking dates: of course noone is going to schedule a Green fair during Glastonbury and Big Green for example, nor are they going to clash with Kingston Green fair or Camden Green Fair weekends, the final choice usually comes down to consulting with the crew involved (ie when they are free as most of the do other events each summer) and went the venue is free. In an ideal world it would be possible for consult the festivals calendar and pick a completely free weekend, but in reality you have to start with your own production crew (who - as I have said - have other jobs and events to put on). I know you keep hoping for a calendar that fits in perfectly with what you would want and all I can suggest is that you send Shane an email setting out all the festivals each year which you don't want his events to clash with: it might remind him of some dates that he was unaware of ... best to do this as early as possible - ideally the year before even (eg suggest dates now to shane for summer 2007).

Cheers for this -- I sense some gentle and probably deserved rebuke going on :o

Perhaps I did post this thread a little too early, but I was responding to DJ Wrongspeed's post that was hidden last night inside a general 'Lambeth is shit' (ie common or garden!! :p ) thread, and which people wouldn't necessarily have seen. I wouldn't necessarily have seen it til quite a bit later. And DJW is generally a responsible/respected poster -- after his post, which shocked me!!!! :( I thought it was important to ask for clarification (the stated purpose of this thread!).

As you know, I did PM you ...

Also ...

Please say it's not so. A lot more information needed ASAP!!!

Dan U

26-04-2006, 17:44

True true, but I was posting a bit more generally anyway.

It was a rushed post earlier, but even with Guildford, there must surely be some sort of alternative site worth investigating, not necessarily within Guildford GB area, but .... ?? :confused:

i hope so as its a great day out by the river - the other main site in guildford is the main festival site sandwiched between two roads - no where near as attractive a venue!

certainly one for your calendar in 2007 ;)

free spirit

26-04-2006, 17:50

Shane is/was the licencee.

ah ok, I know I don't know the local scenario, just passing comment about the fact that there are a lot of difficulties being caused nationally through councils being left to interpret the new laws themselves with fuck all guidance.

As far as we've been told the new licencing laws are different for publicly owned land with the local council's having to actually become the licensees for the land then kind of subcontract this licence back out to the event organiser. According to the licencing officer up here who we've worked with for years and trust pretty well, this is causing major problems in a lot of areas because the whole process is unclear & messy, council officers are reluctant to take on this additional responsibility and if they do, are placing silly restriction on any events as it's their neck on the line much more than in the past.

It may be that lambeth is going down a completely different route to newcastle, as I say the guidance has apparently been shit so the final approach apprently is varying completely across the country, but I thought it might be useful for you to know the background to this nationally as I don't know how well you get on with your local licensing officers etc. and whether they've explained to you the background to this.

if I'm teachin granny to suck eggs on this appologies, just thought it might be useful info for you. Offer's there if you need it.

peace

pinkmonkey

26-04-2006, 17:54

Probably a bit off topic but I had wondered why the travelling fair that comes to our local park twice a year suddenly had a fence around it this time. Now all makes sense. :) Bit pointless though.

TeeJay

26-04-2006, 18:11

A lot more information needed ASAP!!!Sometimes less is more iyswim. Best to contact Shane. You've got his number. ;)

Onket

26-04-2006, 18:57

:D

there in spain now anyway

Not all of them.

William of Walworth

26-04-2006, 19:42

Sometimes less is more iyswim. Best to contact Shane. You've got his number. ;)

Point taken. May see him tomorrow perhaps.

Streathamite

26-04-2006, 19:54

Contact Cllr Clare Whelan - she's in charge of parks I believe and responded to my last email within 5 minutes! I'll ask the other Cllr Whelan about it when he's back in work tomorrow.
La whelan was passionatelyu anti-jayday, and I'll bet she was equally anti-this.
Tory pondlife :mad:

Amanita Virosa

26-04-2006, 19:59

According to the licencing officer up here who we've worked with for years and trust pretty well, this is causing major problems in a lot of areas because the whole process is unclear & messy, council officers are reluctant to take on this additional responsibility and if they do, are placing silly restriction on any events as it's their neck on the line much more than in the past.

There seems to be problems with a lot of events since the new licensing regime came in and it does not seem to matter where in the country they are.
Every event I normally go to has this year gone pre-book ticket only with a numbers restriction:- "due to licencing requirement" or a very similar phrase.

shaneC

26-04-2006, 20:48

The SOUTH LONDON URBAN GREEN FAIR
Preparing for a post peak oil planet.
www.urbangreenfair.org.uk
public notice
embargoed 7pm Tuesday 25th April 2006

SOUTH LONDON URBAN GREEN FAIR FENCED OFF BY LAMBETH COUNCIL

We regret to announce that the South London Urban Green Fair, which was due to take place the weekend of 17th and 18th June in Brockwell Park, Lambeth has been cancelled.

This denies Lambeth and South London residents a public and ticket-free ‘sustainable living’ event promoting green lifestyles in the coming age of ‘peak oil’ - diminishing yet more expensive supplies of fossil fuel.

The reason the organisers have taken this decision is that we are unable to comply with Lambeth Council’s interpretation of the new licencing laws and it’s decision to demand fencing around any free event of 2000 people or more in Lambeth.

The Parks Department of Lambeth Council has demanded the erection of a 1.2 kilometer, 8ft ‘Heras’ fence around the Urban Green Fair in the already fenced Brockwell Park. The organisers are against the ethos of fences at free events, which look ugly, serve little purpose and put people off by creating an impression of exclusion.

The Lambeth Parks department are already charging the organisers £9,800 for use of the Brockwell Park to put on the first South London Urban Green Fair. The fence and extra gate staffing would add around £5,800 to the budget.

Shane Collins, event licencee said ‘This interpretation of the new licencing laws by Lambeth Council has just made it a lot harder to put on free community events. This discriminates against not-for-profit community events in favour of commercial fenced, ticketed and exclusive events. We want the policy changed. ‘

The fence issue has already caused the ‘Cuban Carnival’ to move out of Lambeth. Last year ‘Fair for Life’, a free event aiming to raise money for cancer relief ended up losing money due to the costs of a kilometer-long fence. They have not re-applied for an event this year. ‘Portugal Day’ in Kennington Park does not want the cost or the imposition of a fence.

Of all the events in London Sustainability Week, of which the Urban Green Fair was due to be a part, we can find no other borough in London that would confine a green fair or free community event of 2,000 people or more to a fence. Why is Lambeth so different ?

- ENDS -

Contact: Shane Collins 0208 671 5936
Urban Green Fair Community Interest Company
www.urbangreenfair.org.uk

Preparing for a post peak oil planet.

Event Patrons: George Monbiot, author and journalist; Jenny Jones, London Assembly Member and Ex Deputy Mayor of London: Donnachadh McCarthy, author, campaigner and ex Deputy Chair of the Lib Dems; Peter Tatchell, Civil rights activist; Charles Secrett, ex Chair of FoE, advisor to the Mayor and GLA; Jeremy Leggett, author and director of Solar Century; Caroline Lucas, MEP; Colin Challen, MP; Dr Colin Campbell, Chair of ASPO (Association for the Study of Peak Oil and Gas); Paul Allen, Development Director of Centre for Alternative Technology (CAT);
Brian Eno; muscian and campaigner, Aubrey Meyer; Global Commons Institute,

citydreams

26-04-2006, 21:00

Time to put a fence around Lambeth council?

Good luck in the elections!

William of Walworth

26-04-2006, 21:13

Cheers Shane ....

Depressing, with the possible exception of this ... ;)

Of all the events in London Sustainability Week, of which the Urban Green Fair was due to be a part, we can find no other borough in London that would confine a green fair or free community event of 2,000 people or more to a fence. Why is Lambeth so different ?

<changes subject rapidly ... :D >

aurora green

27-04-2006, 06:55

Time to put a fence around Lambeth council?

Good luck in the elections!

Yeah, Good luck in the elections Shane, and all the Greens!

This is a stupid senseless decision, that does a disservice to the people of Lambeth.
When people talk about going green and sustainability, it's always difficult to relate to in a densely populated inner city situation.
Lambeth actually really needs an open, inclusive and free event such as this one, that could well help people find a Green path in a an urban sprawl.

Very dissapointing.
Another crap decision taken by those currently in power at Lambeth.
Let's all act for change on the 4th May.

William of Walworth

27-04-2006, 09:11

Check yer PMs aurora ;)

corporate whore

02-05-2006, 14:54

C&P council statement from http://www.hernehillforum.blogspot.com/ (bit in bold - not always, eh?)

South London Green Fair licence application

The Premises Licence application for the South London Green Fair event has been processed in the normal way, and the Council has agreed that it can take place subject to the normal conditions applied for any event of this scale.

We have been working closely with the police in processing this licence and have their full support and co-operation. The conditions require that if more than 2000 people are expected to attend an event, we always, as a matter of routine, stipulate that fencing is erected round the event site. This ensures that it can be properly managed and that the health and safety of attendees are safeguarded.

The commercial rate for an event held over two days, like the Green Fair, would normally be circa £20,000, so our hire fee of £9,800 represents a very substantial discount.

When considering the approval of a licence for a public festival, the protection and safety of the public and the environment is always a prime consideration. This application has been treated no differently.

If the event organisers are unhappy with any aspect of the application process they have the usual right of appeal.

rennie

02-05-2006, 15:00

does that mean it's on again?

wiskey

02-05-2006, 15:03

ohh

(would it be really cynical of me to wonder who owns the fence they're hiring - i wonder if lambeth has just enough to go round brockwell park that they could handily rent out to people for 20k a throw)

corporate whore

02-05-2006, 15:06

does that mean it's on again?

No, I don't think so - it's the council's reason for refusal. Basically saying "we're happy for it to go ahead, providing there's a fence and you cough up 10 grand."

citydreams

02-05-2006, 15:13

A bit of a derail, but do you know what the laws are on using band-stands?

gaijingirl

02-05-2006, 15:15

Well, my postal vote went off today. I only had the option of one green candidate sadly.

I'm so disappointed in this policy - one of the reasons I moved so close to Brockwell Park was because of the great community festivals. Last year I was pretty pissed off that there was a fenced off paying festival - more or less in my back garden - and then volunteering at the Fair 4 Life festival it was patently obvious that the fence caused nothing but expense, misery and trouble for everyone.

What on earth are those instigating this policy thinking???

Are they thinking at all? :(

gaijingirl

02-05-2006, 15:21

Actually.. the more I think about this the more annoyed I am.

Is there any way we can campaign about this... make this a bit more of an issue - kick up a bit of a stink... I really feel like a great community space has been taken away from the community whilst large organisations who can charge for tickets get the run of the place... :mad:

memespring

02-05-2006, 15:33

William of Walworth

02-05-2006, 15:50

A regular poster on eFestivals (Vijay) has been in contact with Shane.

Vijay tells me he was told that the Festival is far from likely to be rearranged/relocated at a later date. But I have no details, and things might (???) just possibly yet change.

There's virtually no chance that the fest will happen in Brockwell -- Lambeth's rather eccentric interpretation of new parts of the licensing laws, not AFAIK shared by other boroughs, would HAVE to be reversed for there to be any chance. I'm now assuming that if it happens at all elsewhere (even this being none too likely) it will not be on the 17/18 June. I'm already making other plans for that weekend now.

William of Walworth

02-05-2006, 15:53

If the event organisers are unhappy with any aspect of the application process they have the usual right of appeal.

I'm not holding out much hope of this, either :(

Oula

02-05-2006, 16:10

gaijin girl

I also moved to Herne Hill partly because of all the wonderful free events in the park and would be very sad to see them go and replaced by paying events. I would be up for being involved in any sort of campaign about this.

Brixton Hatter

02-05-2006, 22:43

I really feel like a great community space has been taken away from the community whilst large organisations who can charge for tickets get the run of the place... :mad:this is really doing my head in now, it winds me up....i've tried not to say anything, but...fucking Lambeth Council...!:mad: :mad: ...run partially by the tories...with clare whelan in charge of parks...they seem determined to destroy any kind of community/alternative event - this, the pot march& festival, fair4life last year...they seem to want to destroy anything in brixton/lambeth that's a bit different or interesting...be it squats at st agnes place & rushcroft road, letting class old buildings be knocked down for flats...ruining tate gardens...(will we lose the rec?)....it reminds me of the 80s and early 90s when the tories went after anyone a bit different or seen as a 'threat'....footy fans, travellers, ravers....they fucking hated us then and i reckon they still do....i seriously think some of these people see it as their mission to clean up brixton and build a shiny new town centre no different to any other, devoid of any excitement, colour, culture or beauty...

:mad:

use your vote wisely on thursday people

Onket

03-05-2006, 06:56

Why not just expect less than 2,000 people?

tarannau

03-05-2006, 07:44

Because then you'd still need a fence, albeit a smaller one for a smaller fenced area. By the time set-up costs are taken into account, it's probably better to be slightly ambitious to offset the cost of the bleeding man-hours on the fence.

:(

Giles

03-05-2006, 10:17

If it is a big event, why on earth can't the park's own fence be the perimeter?

Giles..

Streathamite

03-05-2006, 10:38

beats me why they don't just say 'sod yer' to lambeth and get cozy with Southwark, with a view to using burgess park....

tarannau

03-05-2006, 11:09

If it is a big event, why on earth can't the park's own fence be the perimeter?

Giles..

Hey don't use logic here. The council want a fence and that's that. It's not as though there's a real reason for it - it's not as though the attendees or organisers want it, and we all know it wouldn't hold back numbers if people really wanted to come - a group of folks determined to visit will easily get past a hurriedly constructed Heras fence. Short of a Glasto style construction and/or plenty of commercial security and watchtowers, it's all so bone-numbingly pointless.

The whole of the park would be a huge area btw. 2000 fit into the 'fun fair' bit around the lido and surrounds...

:mad: :(

William of Walworth

03-05-2006, 17:30

this is really doing my head in now, it winds me up....i've tried not to say anything, but...fucking Lambeth Council...!:mad: :mad: ...run partially by the tories...with clare whelan in charge of parks...they seem determined to destroy any kind of community/alternative event - this, the pot march& festival, fair4life last year...they seem to want to destroy anything in brixton/lambeth that's a bit different or interesting...be it squats at st agnes place & rushcroft road, letting class old buildings be knocked down for flats...ruining tate gardens...(will we lose the rec?)....it reminds me of the 80s and early 90s when the tories went after anyone a bit different or seen as a 'threat'....footy fans, travellers, ravers....they fucking hated us then and i reckon they still do....i seriously think some of these people see it as their mission to clean up brixton and build a shiny new town centre no different to any other, devoid of any excitement, colour, culture or beauty...

:mad:

use your vote wisely on thursday people

TOP FUCKING RANT!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: