View Full Version : East London Line goes through, but does not stop at, Brixton
upthejunction
12-01-2006, 17:52
I have been writing to the East London Line Project about why it does not stop at either Brixton or Loughborough Junction despite going through both stations (as far as I could work out - the stops either side are Denmark Hill and Clapham High Street). They have replied it is not financially feasible and while it does not actually go through Loughborough Jn it goes v.close. They have also suggested we have good enough public transport in Brixton.
I know there was a petition about htis some time ago but has there been any organised info digging with a view to a proper protest. They appear to concede that the train actually has to go through Brixton BR station but are slightly more shy about conceding that the reason it does not stop here is be cause it is a "gentry class" train linking Highbury and Islington with Clapham.
My next step is to send a Freedom of Info Act request about the feasibility study and or finaces of the ELLP and then approach MPs, etc, or possibly even consider JR-ing them if it is totally outrageous. I would prefer not to do all this myself and so am looking for anyone else who has doen, is doing, or will do something. Apart from anything don't Brxtonites deserve every opportunity to leave Brixton that can be afforded them?
but why don't you wanna stay in brixton? why this rush to leave? Take the tube, the victoria line is ok.
I know there was a petition about htis some time ago but has there been any organised info digging with a view to a proper protest. They appear to concede that the train actually has to go through Brixton BR station but are slightly more shy about conceding that the reason it does not stop here is be cause it is a "gentry class" train linking Highbury and Islington with Clapham.
so youre saying it doesnt stop at Brixton because some rifraf might board?? or am i misunderstanding?
upthejunction
12-01-2006, 18:03
Because it is a real pain at present to get quickly to Clapham or Clapham Junction by public transport. The line uses pre-existing track and I enclose the proposed route - you decide whether it seems odd that it does not stop in the Brixton area
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/rail/initiatives/ell-route-map.shtml
upthejunction
12-01-2006, 18:08
so youre saying it doesnt stop at Brixton because some rifraf might board?? or am i misunderstanding?
I have suggested this to them, though obviously I do not believe it of a body dedicated to serving the population of london. However, if you look at the route there seems to be a very large gap in the Lambeth/Brixton area which appears to be have a much longer disctance between stations than elsewhere on the line.
When I was working in Brixton it was really annoying having to get buses from Lewisham to Brixton, if it did stop it would make it a lot easier to get around South London.
I definitely want it to go to Brixton. Even Loughborough Junction or around there would be OK. I want to be able to have a tube journey straight to Brixton :)
When I was working in Brixton it was really annoying having to get buses from Lewisham to Brixton, if it did stop it would make it a lot easier to get around South London.
that's true. it's easier to get to central london than to south east london.
It's cos the Clapham line is the high-level one, which is not serviced by the current station) and it would therefore require an all-new station built way up in the air over existing shops and streets. In engineer's and planner's terms - a fucking nightmare :(
Actually I remember a fairly long thread about this, Lots of useful info on there.
lang rabbie
12-01-2006, 18:59
New readers start here:
www.urban75.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-60693.html
www.urban75.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-73680.html
Edited to add - second link seems to be buggered!
silentNate
12-01-2006, 19:13
I live in East London and it would be well handy if they did stop there...
(dons anorak)
any new public transport which crosses south london (as opposed to going from north to south) is a good thing in my book.
akaik there is only the
west croydon - balham loop (via w norwood)
thameslink loop (round sutton, wimbledon, slackbridge etc)
which connects up with the tram @ mitcham jct (wimbledon - beckenham)
surely it should connect up at all available stations, its not like the infrastructure isnt already there.
its very difficult to traverse london, a train from brixton to clapham junction would also link up with the silverlink (iirc) loops round west london as well as the east benefits mentioned before.
i'll keep my eyes open for a petition
upthejunction
12-01-2006, 19:46
Their reply to me is:
"Further to our response to you in August last year regarding Brixton station, the reason this does not appear on the Phase 2 route is because the preferred site would have entailed building on an angled bend which is also on an incline (the station would be situated on a high viaduct). Accessibility to ground level would need to be included, and as previously informed, the total costs involved in building here would be prohibitively expensive. Loughborough Junction would entail building on an even higher viaduct, as it is at this point that it passes over the Thameslink Line viaduct.
Whilst stations at these points are not currently being considered, this does not preclude the opportunity to build them in the future if an appropriate source of funding could be found."
If anyone can tell me what they are talking about in Brixton (I think I know what they are talking about at LJ) I would be grateful as looking on the map it looks like the line from Denmark Hill to Clapham High St goes through the existing Brixton BR station. (see http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=531750&y=175750&z=1&sv=531750,175750&st=4&ar=N&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf&ax=531233&ay=175352)
corporate whore
13-01-2006, 12:08
Doesn't go through, but over, the existing Brixton BR station. Would involve building new platforms 20 feet above the existing ones which, as someone already said, would be a logistical nightmare.
Imagine the chaos if huge cranes are sat in Atlantic Rd for weeks on end.
Loughbrough Junction's the pisser, though. Never has a station been so ill-named. So many services go close to the station, but only one goes through..
upthejunction
13-01-2006, 13:21
Doesn't go through, but over, the existing Brixton BR station. Would involve building new platforms 20 feet above the existing ones which, as someone already said, would be a logistical nightmare.
One Word. Why? Is the other track too smal or something. Or is it too simple to use the existing track and station? There is definitely a line that goes from Denmark Hill to Brixton and then to Clapham High St. Has anyone got the feasibility study and how does C.Whore know the plan?
corporate whore
13-01-2006, 14:16
Don't get me wrong, I'm not privy to TfL plans! I have, though, spent many a salubrious time waiting for trains at Brixton station, and know that the line from Denmark Hill to Clapham High Street passes above the line on which Brixton station is situated.
Thus, a station on that line would entail a new, second-level station being built above the existing station.
So, although I disagree with TfL's decision to bypass both Brixton and LJ on the ELL extension, I can see the point made in their reply to upthejunction.
Doesn't go through, but over, the existing Brixton BR station. Would involve building new platforms 20 feet above the existing ones which, as someone already said, would be a logistical nightmare.
Imagine the chaos if huge cranes are sat in Atlantic Rd for weeks on end.
Loughbrough Junction's the pisser, though. Never has a station been so ill-named. So many services go close to the station, but only one goes through..
whats a few weeks disruption in the greater scheme of things?
Few few weeks? youre having a laugh arent you?!!
Pickman's model
14-01-2006, 17:23
east london line trains should not stop at brixton or loughborough junction because neither brixton nor loughborough junction are in east london.
simple, really.
they should give something going to brixton or loughborough junction a different name.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
14-01-2006, 17:32
One Word. Why? Is the other track too smal or something. Or is it too simple to use the existing track and station? There is definitely a line that goes from Denmark Hill to Brixton and then to Clapham High St. Has anyone got the feasibility study and how does C.Whore know the plan?
It runs across the other track. It's a completely different line, there's no way you could use the track that the current platforms serve.
I've no idea how much it would cost to put in a new platform but it would clearly be a massive job. A few weeks of disruption wouldn't even get close to how long it would take IMO.
east london line trains should not stop at brixton or loughborough junction because neither brixton nor loughborough junction are in east london.
simple, really.
they should give something going to brixton or loughborough junction a different name.
is now the time to tell you that the circle line isnt really a circle? and that the northern line goes south of the river? ((((pickman's)))) :D
memespring
14-01-2006, 18:02
It runs across the other track. It's a completely different line, there's no way you could use the track that the current platforms serve.
I've no idea how much it would cost to put in a new platform but it would clearly be a massive job. A few weeks of disruption wouldn't even get close to how long it would take IMO.
That was why the council brought Brady's wasnt it? To demolish/alter it to make space for the ELL.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
14-01-2006, 19:03
I've no idea,to be honest. I'm not an expert at all, I was just responding to the suggestion that what setting up the line was a very easy task, which it clearly isn't.
lang rabbie
14-01-2006, 19:55
It runs across the other track. It's a completely different line, there's no way you could use the track that the current platforms serve.
I've no idea how much it would cost to put in a new platform but it would clearly be a massive job. A few weeks of disruption wouldn't even get close to how long it would take IMO.
Am I right in thinking that all of the ELL plans have assumed that trains for the ELL would run all the way along the "High Level" (LB&SCR) line - the route currently taken by South London Line trains that stop at Wandsworth Road, Clapham High Street, and now run fast through central Brixton to Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye. Services on this line once stopped at the lost East Brixton (http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/east_brixton.html) station,
What isn't clear is whether anyone has ever looked at the feasibility of running them along the "Low Level" (SE&CR) line?
The 1894 map of Brixton shows that the low level station used to have four platforms:
http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/images/brixton-1894.jpg
one of which used to be built out into Brixton Station Road:
http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/images/market2.jpg
These two northern platforms were served by trains running east-west, although (not having a Bradshaw's Railway Comapanion of the era to hand) I'm not sure of their exact pattern of services.
I suspect that what we have is a fossilised service pattern reflecting the division of Victoria station between the two rival Victorian railway companies - still obvious at Victoria until about 1990.
Once the timetabling "slots" for Eurostar trains are no longer required when the terminus move from Waterloo to Kings Cross (from 2008?), I would have thought that more flexible timetabling allowing trains to move between the two sets of tracks between Brixton and Clapham High Street has to be a possibility.
[Edited add: removes anorak before going to pub]
jchanning
15-01-2006, 12:32
I would like access to the East London line in Brixton because it links into the Jubilee line at Canada Water. This would give much better access to Canary Wharf and a lot of East London and Essex from South London.
<peers at anorak, realises it won't ever fit :) >
Brixton is my local centre it's where I shop, socialise sometimes and so on. It's also my local tube and train station.
It's also a terminus on a major tube line and a railway station, meaning it's a massive bus hub just where the trunk road to Brighton narrows. It's expected to become a tram terminus. It's one of the most important transport interchanges in London, used by countless people who don't live locally and wouldn't come anywhere near if they had some way of avoiding it.
How will campaigning for yet another transport interchange concentrated in the same small space improve the lives of local people, most of whom don't commute to Canary Wharf?
citydreams
15-01-2006, 13:19
It's one of the most important transport interchanges in London, used by countless people who don't live locally
Are you 100% confident that the tram is coming to Brixton? I've not seen how TfL Trams is progressing with the plans. But other cities are moving away from Trams due to the cost benefits of automated buses.
When the ELL is up and running Brixton will no longer be the preferred option for loads of commuters.
Opening up Brixton to the Docklands gives us access to jobs. Allowing us transfer to Peckham would free up some of the road space - ever seen an empty 345 bus?
You say that Brixton is a major hub, but it's not a patch on Clapham which suddenly finds itself with another two tube stations.
I don't think the tram has been finalised yet. It sems to me there's an implicit assumption that it's in the interests of brixton that both the tram and ELL line land here. I'm not saying it's not, but I do think it's an assumption that needs to be investigated and explicitly proved.
jchanning
15-01-2006, 19:22
Opening up Brixton to the Docklands gives us access to jobs.
Absolutely, the impact of this should not be understimated.
THE WARRIOR
17-01-2006, 13:49
[QUOTE=upthejunction]I have been writing to the East London Line Project about why it does not stop at either Brixton or Loughborough Junction despite going through both stations (as far as I could work out - the stops either side are Denmark Hill and Clapham High Street). They have replied it is not financially feasible and while it does not actually go through Loughborough Jn it goes v.close. They have also suggested we have good enough public transport in Brixton.
I know there was a petition about htis some time ago but has there been any organised info digging with a view to a proper protest.
Val Shawcross attempted to follow this up - see links. A 2500 name petition was presented by the BAF to Ken Livingstone re an interchange stop at Loughborough Junction in April 2004 which received his sympathy!
http://mqt.london.gov.uk//public/question.do?id=9059
http://mqt.london.gov.uk//public/supplementaryquestion.do?id=8905
citydreams
17-01-2006, 14:28
If money was only available for one station then my preference would be for a stop at Loughborough Junction to add to the development of the area, served by a shuttle bus that goes around Brixton.
Yossarian
17-01-2006, 15:35
east london line trains should not stop at brixton or loughborough junction because neither brixton nor loughborough junction are in east london.
simple, really.
they should give something going to brixton or loughborough junction a different name.
A lot of the stations on the East London line are in areas most people would class as South London, are you planning to firebomb them in the name of the Pedant's Revolutionary Front?
tarannau
17-01-2006, 15:43
<How will campaigning for yet another transport interchange concentrated in the same small space improve the lives of local people, most of whom don't commute to Canary Wharf?
To be honest though I'd love a way of getting to work in Clapham Junction more quickly than at present - it used to take me less time to reach Camden in the mornings.
:(
It's an unpleasant choice between the 35 and 37, thus meaning that you'll get stuck behind countless 4x4s as your crawl past the common at school run time. Failing that I can catch a tube to Vauxhall at extra cost and come back via train to Clapham Junction. Sucky, sucky, sucky....
lang rabbie
17-01-2006, 18:12
Are you planning to firebomb them in the name of the Pedant's Revolutionary Front?
Does the Lambeth cell consist of the same group of drinkers at the Priory Arms who claim to be the local chapter of the Militant Grammarians of Massachusetts. :)
timothysutton1
18-01-2006, 10:40
Looking at the proposed ELL map all the stations are pretty evenly spaced until you get to our bit of South London. It all looks very suspicious to me.
The question of expense seems a bit of a red herring to me. If they coped with all the problems of the Docklands Railway I'm sure they could build us a station in Brixton.
I would definitely agree with a Brixton station. Increasing transport links will increase opportunities for both residents and local businesses.
Is any action planned? Council meetings to lobby, etc. etc?
To be honest though I'd love a way of getting to work in Clapham Junction more quickly than at present - it used to take me less time to reach Camden in the mornings.
Yeah, I understand that, and I sympathise with it. But, as we've discussed before, increasing the desirability of Brixton is two edged: whilst improving the lives of the existing, and longterm, residents it also increases the pressures which are pricing them out of the area. Meanwhile failing to regenerate reinforces deprivation. There are no easy answers to any of this, which is why it's necessary to critically examine the assumption that better transport links is automatically a good thing for the people you and I both care about, as well as being good for those I, at any rate, am rather more ambivalent about.
btw, depends where you live, obviously, but bus to Steatham Hill station and then a train to CJ works for me when I need it.
timothysutton1
18-01-2006, 12:51
Yeah, I understand that, and I sympathise with it. But, as we've discussed before, increasing the desirability of Brixton is two edged: whilst improving the lives of the existing, and longterm, residents it also increases the pressures which are pricing them out of the area. Meanwhile failing to regenerate reinforces deprivation. There are no easy answers to any of this, which is why it's necessary to critically examine the assumption that better transport links is automatically a good thing for the people you and I both care about, as well as being good for those I, at any rate, am rather more ambivalent about.
btw, depends where you live, obviously, but bus to Steatham Hill station and then a train to CJ works for me when I need it.
There are a lot of people in Brixton who would actually approve of better transport and higher propery prices. This is not just restricted to new residents but also includes the multi-racial community that has been living here for generations.
For you to preach what opportunities Brixton residents should and shouldn't have I find very patronising. I think we are worth more that.
citydreams
18-01-2006, 13:15
Hey timothysutton,
I'm sure Newbie will answer on his own accord, but he doesn't mean to be patronising. I've found his point of view to be that one must explicitly prove how any change is beneficial. He wants change as much as anyone, just not for the sake of change.
hope that helps
billythefish
18-01-2006, 13:28
Surely it's a no brainer that the ELL should link to tube stations where possible? There is a huge gap around Brixton, Loughborough which seems inexpicable to me. At the very least, it should link with the Victoria line at Brixton.
paolo999
18-01-2006, 13:39
Surely it's a no brainer that the ELL should link to tube stations where possible? There is a huge gap around Brixton, Loughborough which seems inexpicable to me. At the very least, it should link with the Victoria line at Brixton.
It's a cost thing.
When they are comitted to building new track (e.g. the Jubilee extension) then they will build the interchanges. This extensions is unfortunately a much lower budget thing - repurposing existing track.
cheers citydreams, you & I have bickered before but it's nice to know that you don't distrust my motives whatever you think of my views :)
There are a lot of people in Brixton who would actually approve of better transport and higher propery prices. This is not just restricted to new residents but also includes the multi-racial community that has been living here for generations.
For you to preach what opportunities Brixton residents should and shouldn't have I find very patronising. I think we are worth more that.
At least you're honest enough to equate massive public investment in a new station with higher property prices. Usually it takes a few pages and more than 7 posts before that sort of agenda becomes apparent.
There are a lot of people in Brixton full stop. Of course there's a divergence of views. I'll take your word for it that you can talk for the "multi-racial community that has been living here for generations" and know their priorities for the area. No doubt they've all made a point of telling you that all they want is a few more grand on the price before they can sell up and move away. Or is it only those that buy based on expectation of profit, proximity to transport and primary school catchment area that think like that, d'you reckon?
Because it is a real pain at present to get quickly to Clapham or Clapham Junction by public transport. The line uses pre-existing track and I enclose the proposed route - you decide whether it seems odd that it does not stop in the Brixton area
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/rail/initiatives/ell-route-map.shtmlI would love to be able to go from Clapham Junction to Brixton. It would save me a *lot* of time and hassel.
I've no idea how much it would cost to put in a new platform but it would clearly be a massive job. A few weeks of disruption wouldn't even get close to how long it would take IMO.I wonder how the victorians managed to build so much railway infrastruture - many of which are still running - and why technology and know-how seems to have gone backwards since then, judging by how "impossible" so many things seem.
Or maybe its just that roads are now the number one priority whereas railways are treated like second-class projects?
timothysutton1
18-01-2006, 19:31
Why are some people so frightened of change? It's this warped ghetto mentality that nothing should change. Meanwhile the world passes by (quite literally if we don't get the railway station) and we miss out. What a tragic legacy to leave behind.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
18-01-2006, 19:33
I wonder how the victorians managed to build so much railway infrastruture - many of which are still running - and why technology and know-how seems to have gone backwards since then, judging by how "impossible" so many things seem.
Or maybe its just that roads are now the number one priority whereas railways are treated like second-class projects?
I don't disagree, and I'm sure it's possible given the investment.
My post was only in response to the suggestion that it was a ridiculously easy job, which it isn't.
memespring
18-01-2006, 23:06
Why are some people so frightened of change? It's this warped ghetto mentality that nothing should change.
People get frightened because they see change happening and feel priced out of it's outcomes (financially or socially).
It's this warped ghetto mentality that nothing should change.
what is?
In whose interests is it to concentrate transport interchanges in Brixton, and whose interests does it work against?
I wonder how the victorians managed to build so much railway infrastruture - many of which are still running - and why technology and know-how seems to have gone backwards since then, judging by how "impossible" so many things seem.
Or maybe its just that roads are now the number one priority whereas railways are treated like second-class projects?
It's not that things are "impossible", or that technology and know-how have been lost.
It must be remembered that a lot of suburban London was only really developed at the same time as, and largely because of, the newly built railways, so when the railways were being built, they were being built through largely open countryside.
And, the railways were not built with "taxpayers money" so there weren't endless arguments about which project should and should not received money.
Giles..
I wonder how the victorians managed to build so much railway infrastruture - many of which are still running
Probably because they had the massive wealth of the empire to fund it all. Plus far lower labour costs.
Veronicaball
19-01-2006, 11:01
I've no idea,to be honest. I'm not an expert at all, I was just responding to the suggestion that what setting up the line was a very easy task, which it clearly isn't.
The authorities are correct in reporting that the proposed East London line does not share the line of Loughborough Junction or Brixton Station as its "on the high line" that crosses these two other lines.
HOWEVER the line rises from ground level after it runs along the north side of Ruskin Park before getting high enough to go above Thameslink just south of Loughborough Junction Station. This patch which is beside EMPTY land - parallel with Bengworth Road (which has no residential dwellings) would be an obvious cheap place to put in a station (there are signs that there used to be one called "Cambria Road"). There would then be a three to four minute walk to the existing Loughborough Junction station (and on many underground interconnections the walk between lines is as far).
This would be a cheap and possible solution - but don't expect the powers that be to look at the really feasible answers for then the aurgument about costs would be revealed for what it is - an excuse!
timothysutton1
19-01-2006, 11:04
what is?
In whose interests is it to concentrate transport interchanges in Brixton, and whose interests does it work against?
As the poll is indicating, better transport links would be of great interest to a lot of people. Maybe if you got out more you would think that too.
citydreams
19-01-2006, 11:11
This patch which is beside EMPTY land - parallel with Bengworth Road (which has no residential dwellings) would be an obvious cheap place to put in a station!
Agreed! It would be perfect for me personally :)
But there's already a stop at Denmark Hill just a few hundred metres further.
As the poll is indicating, better transport links would be of great interest to a lot of people. Maybe if you got out more you would think that too.
Instead of yet another piece of gratuitous rudeness, how about answering the question.
Probably because they had the massive wealth of the empire to fund it all. Plus far lower labour costs.
I don't know about "wealth of the empire" directly - the railways were all private companies, out to make a profit, when they were built.
Giles..
Isambard
19-01-2006, 13:18
What gets my goat is that this line has been on the cards for YEARS, moving into DECADES now. The high flyover at Brixton and the issues with providing an interchange there were in the railway press in the mid 80s.
In typical British short sightedness it seems they haven't found a solution or simply saved up the money over 20 years to make a capital investment. Typical! Short sightedness and minimum investment / profit orientated. :mad:
timothysutton1
19-01-2006, 15:07
what is?
In whose interests is it to concentrate transport interchanges in Brixton, and whose interests does it work against?
As I have said, it appears from the poll that residents DO want a Brixton Station. I don't think any of their interests could be considered unlawful so why not? Your theory seems to be suggesting they shouldn't be given the choice.
so you're not prepared to even try and answer the question.
You're new here, so maybe you're under the misapprehension that we expect contentless insults and sweeping generalisations rather than informed debate. Since you're clearly incapable of the latter, and are equally clearly speaking from property price based self-interest is there any reason to further engage with you?
timothysutton1
19-01-2006, 17:00
what is?
In whose interests is it to concentrate transport interchanges in Brixton, and whose interests does it work against?
In whose interest might it be? The travelling public that's who. Maybe a thread for discussing property prices may be a better place for this discussion?
articletwo
19-01-2006, 22:34
that'll be a no then :(
Why stop at stopping the ELL stopping in Brixton? That is years away. There is much work to be down now fighting to close down all the existing transport links - tube, train, bus - that dare to venture to Brixton. All of them bringing in property-price obsessed carpet baggers. And, even worse, possibly allowing local people to travel outside Brixton to places of employment! Quelle horreur!
Clearly, once Brixton is cut-off from the rest of London, the next stage is a big wide moat. With a drawbridge. And newbie posted there checking the credentials of all those who attempt to enter, ensuring the purity of Brixton is not sullied by nasty outsiders. Bliss!
Why stop at stopping the ELL stopping in Brixton? That is years away. There is much work to be down now fighting to close down all the existing transport links - tube, train, bus - that dare to venture to Brixton. All of them bringing in property-price obsessed carpet baggers. And, even worse, possibly allowing local people to travel outside Brixton to places of employment! Quelle horreur!
Clearly, once Brixton is cut-off from the rest of London, the next stage is a big wide moat. With a drawbridge. And newbie posted there checking the credentials of all those who attempt to enter, ensuring the purity of Brixton is not sullied by nasty outsiders. Bliss!
Shut up you twat! :D
timothysutton1
20-01-2006, 10:48
I have asked my local councillor, Jackie Meldrum, who has asked Val Shawcross (London Assembly member for Lambeth and Southwark). This is her reply:
' I did a lot of petitioning (1,000 sigs +) and campaigning on this and brought residents including Tim Gaymer from Loughborough in to see Ken. The phase one is going ahead at the moment, e.g the line to Crystal Palace and West Croydon, but the phase 2 arm isn't yet agreed.
The route could yet be changed to Wimbledon via Streatham and Tulse Hill but if phase 2 goes ahead via Denmark Hill there aren't currently platforms at Brixton to take it so there would be a 2 kilometre gap between stations (Denmark Hill to Clapham).
Ken agrees with me it would be mad to take it past Brixton without stopping so he would look for regeneration funding to put a new high level platform on at Brixton.
Its pretty clear that there wouldn't be a cost benefit case to install any completely new stations. However, as the phase 2 development is not even under discussion at this stage campaigning has quietened off. We won't pick up this issue, routing or extra platforms, until the debate goes live on the ELLX phase 2 again...'
If I hear any more I will let you guys know.
timothysutton1
20-01-2006, 10:50
Why stop at stopping the ELL stopping in Brixton? That is years away. There is much work to be down now fighting to close down all the existing transport links - tube, train, bus - that dare to venture to Brixton. All of them bringing in property-price obsessed carpet baggers. And, even worse, possibly allowing local people to travel outside Brixton to places of employment! Quelle horreur!
Clearly, once Brixton is cut-off from the rest of London, the next stage is a big wide moat. With a drawbridge. And newbie posted there checking the credentials of all those who attempt to enter, ensuring the purity of Brixton is not sullied by nasty outsiders. Bliss!
Hail! King Newbie.
Why stop at stopping the ELL stopping in Brixton? That is years away. There is much work to be down now fighting to close down all the existing transport links - tube, train, bus - that dare to venture to Brixton. All of them bringing in property-price obsessed carpet baggers. And, even worse, possibly allowing local people to travel outside Brixton to places of employment! Quelle horreur!
Clearly, once Brixton is cut-off from the rest of London, the next stage is a big wide moat. With a drawbridge. And newbie posted there checking the credentials of all those who attempt to enter, ensuring the purity of Brixton is not sullied by nasty outsiders. Bliss!
so can you tell me which groups a new station will favour and which it will harm? Or is low quality abuse all you have to offer as well?
Agreed! It would be perfect for me personally :)
But there's already a stop at Denmark Hill just a few hundred metres further.
It's actually more like 600m, and that only as the crow flies (or indeed the railway runs) - walking it's a lot further, especially after dusk when Ruskin Park is closed - nearly a mile round Coldharbour lane/Denmark Hill.
I think this is an excellent idea. How can we get it in the minds of the powers that be?
articletwo
20-01-2006, 19:46
so can you tell me which groups a new station will favour and which it will harm? Or is low quality abuse all you have to offer as well?
Oh come on, I rather hoped it was at least medium quality abuse.
I imagine an ELL station will favour all those people who want to come and go, to work, to play, to interact with the rest of the world. In fact, all the people who normally benefit from a new bit of transport infrastructure. I struggle to see who it would harm.
increasing the desirability of Brixton is two edged: whilst improving the lives of the existing, and longterm, residents it also increases the pressures which are pricing them out of the area. Meanwhile failing to regenerate reinforces deprivation.
i understand your arguement about the gentrification of brixton but who uses public transport as well as commuters - many of whom are brixton residents and not just using it as a hub?
public transport is used by a significant proportion of people on lower incomes, particularly in the more suburban areas.
thats why i'm in favour of it.
memespring
20-01-2006, 21:37
The ELL is set to become the Outer Circle Line. If it stopped at evey station nonone would get anywhere! !
I struggle to see who it would harm.
ok, let's split this into groups.
Winners
Brixton residents who want to travel would gain from a station. That may seem a bit obvious, but there we are.
add to that some other travellers
non-residents who want to visit Brixton
non-residents who use Brixton as a hub
then there's the two groups ts1 champions. Those who currently own property in Brixton could expect to gain from the increased desirability of the area. Business would expect to capitalise on both increased commuter activity and the richer people buying into the area.
Then there's the same sharks who've got their eyes on Revitalise. Property developers, construction companies and the rest who'll want to amalgamate a station project with redeveloping the area around the Rec and Popes Road carpark. The bigger the scheme the greater the profit potential.
Non-winners
Brixton residents who seldom or never travel, or who have little desire to go to Clapham, Peckham or beyond will only gain indirectly, if at all.
Like memespring says, those who use the ELL from Peckham to Clapham will have increased journey times.
those ts1 conveniently ignores: the majority of locals who are not property owners, for whom rising local property prices reduces opportunities to rent or buy in the area. The quirky local businesses priced out as the multiples seek to capitalise as Brixton moves upmarket.
And then there's the opportunity costs. Where is the money this station will cost not being spent? LJ perhaps? Is Brixton the place most in need of investment/ is this investment what Brixton needs most?
Finally there might even be a few locals who don't want ever more people getting off buses, seething on the pavements, hopping on a train and leaving. And some who don't want a major construction site planted in the middle of the market, or who'd prefer a local shopping centre to an enhanced transport hub.
Ok that's a start. It's not hard to identify other groups. Maybe some of this is too broad, and needs to be defined more clearly. Some groups are numerically bigger than others, some economially more important, some have political clout, some are easily ignored. Obviously there is overlap, individuals don't fit into convenient boxes.
Equally obviously in the minimum 5-10 years it'll take before there's any sign of this station many/most of the people reading this thread will have moved away from the area, so immediate, personal self-interest shouldn't be the sole consideration.
This station may be a good strategic investment of public funds. It may not. The case hasn't yet even been argued, let alone proven.
oh, and no, it was crap abuse :p
citydreams
21-01-2006, 01:34
This station may be a good strategic investment of public funds. It may not. The case hasn't yet even been argued, let alone proven.
Are you going to wait for a glossy magazine from the council before you vote on this thread? :p :)
cybertect
21-01-2006, 04:03
I don't know about "wealth of the empire" directly - the railways were all private companies, out to make a profit, when they were built.
To be perfectly honest, lots of people lost their shirts in the railway boom of the 1840s (http://www.fathom.com/feature/122057/). It was like the Internet Bubble at the end of the 1990s with massive inflows of capital and very small returns being made on it.
The shake-out was with us all the way through the government legislated formation of the 'big four' railway companies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railways_Act_1921) (LNER, LMS, GWR and Southern) after WW1 and the nationalisation of rail after WWII through to the Beeching cuts of the 1960s when most of the smaller, wildly unprofitable lines disappeared.
memespring
21-01-2006, 07:54
Are you going to wait for a glossy magazine from the council before you vote on this thread? :p :)
You mean this one (http://mysayonrevitalise.blogspot.com/) ;)
but Newbie what about the new areas of work that will be opened up by better transport links?
would you deny those people the chance to get better jobs just because you dont want to see Brixton gentrifying?
were you born in Brixton? or did you migrate in yourself? its a transistional area and has been for at least the last 50 years.
THE WARRIOR
21-01-2006, 12:17
[QUOTE=Dan U]but Newbie what about the new areas of work that will be opened up by better transport links?
As well as opportunities to travel faster than a 345 bus, by having interchange stations at all nodal interchanges the radial rail route can provide an efficient way to travel if a key route into central london is closed or experiencing delays, thereby saving a fortune in losses incurred due to transport delays, yet I do not think any finance model for a new station/interchange takes this into account
memespring
21-01-2006, 12:36
For anyone who hasnt seen it before, this is what the transport map is due to look like one day (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/pdf/press-releases/putting-transport-onthemap.pdf
One thing to bare in mind about the ELL not stopping in Brixton is that it isn't going to be a tube service, but a railway service run by TFL. Therefore it is bound to have less stops.
Are you going to wait for a glossy magazine from the council before you vote on this thread? :p :)
I don't have enough of a view either way to vote. I can see some advantages, some disadvantages, but overall I'm unclear, just now in 2006 when Revitalise, the road layout and the tram are all undecided, what the future of Brixton holds. I'll do a kneejerk vote if you like, in which case it's against because the case for hasn't been properly made or proven. But that's preliminary.
I don't understand why people lurch into a particular camp without asking, and expecting answers to, fundamental questions. And what's more fundamental than 'whose interests does this serve'?
When the council or TfL produces a glossy I'll be asking the same question.
but Newbie what about the new areas of work that will be opened up by better transport links?
would you deny those people the chance to get better jobs just because you dont want to see Brixton gentrifying?
add that to the Pro side of the equation: better access for locals to jobs.
There are lots of positives and negatives I haven't mentioned. I'm trying to widen the discussion, not produce a definitive report. A bunch of people saying they'd like to be able to get to Clapham Junction or Peckham easier than now is merely skimming the surface of this.
were you born in Brixton? or did you migrate in yourself? its a transistional area and has been for at least the last 50 years.
I was born north of the river, but you might try explaining why the answers to the questions I've put are dependent on where I was born. The questions are fundamental, who asks them isn't. Whenever someone plays the man not the ball (as ts1 has been doing throughout) it's usually because their own arguments are poorly thought through and based on sectional self interest.
The authorities are correct in reporting that the proposed East London line does not share the line of Loughborough Junction or Brixton Station as its "on the high line" that crosses these two other lines.
HOWEVER the line rises from ground level after it runs along the north side of Ruskin Park before getting high enough to go above Thameslink just south of Loughborough Junction Station. This patch which is beside EMPTY land - parallel with Bengworth Road (which has no residential dwellings) would be an obvious cheap place to put in a station (there are signs that there used to be one called "Cambria Road"). There would then be a three to four minute walk to the existing Loughborough Junction station (and on many underground interconnections the walk between lines is as far).
This would be a cheap and possible solution - but don't expect the powers that be to look at the really feasible answers for then the aurgument about costs would be revealed for what it is - an excuse!
The land I think you're talking about has a huge London Electricity depot, on it and part of Kings College hospital, so it's not exactly empty.
I didn't know there was Cambria Road station, I used to live there.
I was born north of the river, but you might try explaining why the answers to the questions I've put are dependent on where I was born. The questions are fundamental, who asks them isn't. Whenever someone plays the man not the ball (as ts1 has been doing throughout) it's usually because their own arguments are poorly thought through and based on sectional self interest.
sorry, i wasnt playing the man and not the ball intentionaly.
the point i was trying to make is that Brixton has always been an area that has changed, people have left, people have come. it appeared to me from reading your posts that one of the reasons why you didnt want this interchange was a reluctance to see any further change in the area in a certain direction - i.e losing its feel and spirit and turning into just another clone suburb.
That I can understand, but only to a point.
connecting to an improved transport infrastructure is a bit of a no-brainer in my books, particularly this scheme.
As I've already mentioned about access to jobs (inwards and outwards) and also reduced traffic flows on the E-W roads - such as the S Circular has got to be a good thing.
I dont neccesarily think it follows that a new station will be swiftly followed by an army of developers waving cheque books - can you see this happening in West Croydon when they get the tube (for example?)
There may be an increase in house prices i would agree but that isnt a big enough negative for me when balanced against all the positives.
anyway thats my views on it.
If it's not practical to build a station in the brixton area, then surely the whole argument about whether you want one or not is irrelevant.
sorry, i wasnt playing the man and not the ball intentionaly.
the point i was trying to make is that Brixton has always been an area that has changed, people have left, people have come. it appeared to me from reading your posts that one of the reasons why you didnt want this interchange was a reluctance to see any further change in the area in a certain direction - i.e losing its feel and spirit and turning into just another clone suburb.
That I can understand, but only to a point.
no problem :)
You're confusing me with someone else, possibly someone who no longer posts here. I have some sympathy with the view, but it's not my primary concern, though it could be consequential.
Desireability is increasingly polarising Brixton into an area lived in by an uneasy mix of people in social housing- who have limited choices- and youngish, prosperous people from elsewhere, who tend to stay for a few years and then move away.
Some of the more vocal members of the latter group push schemes which benefit themselves and others like them, but which ignore, or harm, people who aren't like them. That is, they ignore the majority of people who live in the area.
So IMO it's worth being suspicious. This is particularly true when major public investment is to be spent on something claimed as explicitly good for business and property owners.
articletwo
23-01-2006, 20:31
You previously criticised a poster on this thread for "sweeping generalisations ". So let's examine this post against that test:
Desireability is increasingly polarising Brixton into an area lived in by an uneasy mix of people in social housing- who have limited choices- and youngish, prosperous people from elsewhere, who tend to stay for a few years and then move away.
What evidence is there that the mix is "uneasy" - e.g. is there opinion polling data that has examined this? What evidence is there that the mix is different from elsewhere in London, a city where rich and poor tend to live cheek by jowl? What evidence is there that people moving here are "youngish" - what is the average age of someone who moves to Brixton? How does that compare with the average age of people that move to London as a whole? What is the average length of time that people live in Brixton? What is the average length of time that people live in Brixton who have moved here in the last five years (to differentiate the average length of stay of an "incomer" from a long-term resident)? How does that compare to London as a whole?
Some of the more vocal members of the latter group push schemes which benefit themselves and others like them, but which ignore, or harm, people who aren't like them. That is, they ignore the majority of people who live in the area.
What evidence is there that one particular group is pushing particular schemes? Who are these vocal members? How do you know that some schemes ignore the "majority of people"? Examples please, with numbers benefitted and numbers dis-benefitted.
So IMO it's worth being suspicious. This is particularly true when major public investment is to be spent on something claimed as explicitly good for business and property owners.
Evidence of the explicit claims of particular benefits to "business and property owners"? The TfL brochure on the ELL is headlined "Integration … Regeneration … Sustainability", and goes on to say that the "project will provide a catalyst for regeneration in some of the most deprived parts of the city."
Finally, the open-minded remain sceptical, examining the evidence. Only the paranoid are suspicious.
there's this (http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/AreaProfile2.do?tab=2) if you're after stats- the 'people' and 'housing' tabs paint the picture.
If that doesn't work http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk search on Lambeth (or on specific wards).
For the rest, I didn't come out of the egg yesterday and thems my observations. You're welcome to find any evidence you can to show this station as universally a good thing.
Finally, the open-minded remain sceptical, examining the evidence. Only the paranoid are suspicious.
Neat. I'll try to remember that in future :)
... whilst noticing that no-one is rushing forward to say that this station isn't likely to boost property prices and further squeeze housing for locals on lower incomes.
citydreams
24-01-2006, 10:01
Newbie, with all your sitting on your hands waiting for the evidence (which I'm sure you'd be well qualified in producing) to materialise one can only assume that you're against the idea of a station until proven otherwise.
I think that's exactly what I said above (#78): I'm open but agin it until someone shows different. The onus is on those who think it's a good scheme to come up with some convincing reasoning about the social consequences.
citydreams
24-01-2006, 11:13
The onus is on those who think it's a good scheme to come up with some convincing reasoning about the social consequences.
Not at all. The honus is on those that oppose change to prove that the status quo is better than the bright future.
We're not talking about whether we should dig up the roads, or close post offices - this is about transport links for local people. It's a no-brainer. I could tell you how many man hours it would save to allow people a train-stop and you'd still prevaricate because not everyone has given their opinon yet.
*puts fence on the the pyre of local governement*
You could but you haven't (and frankly you're a lot better at finding evidence than I'll ever be). The social makeup of 'local people' will change if this station is built.
If a transport hub is such a no brainer why is increasing property prices the only wider social consequence anyone has suggested? No-one seems prepared to think out loud about how it will affect those that aren't (currently) property owners. I've watched prices shoot up and I've seen people reluctantly leave because they can't afford to move (buy or rent) within the area. I don't see that as a no bainer good thing, sorry if my concerns are different from other peoples.
timothysutton1
24-01-2006, 12:40
...The social makeup of 'local people' will change if this station is built.
Why not? If the social makeup of 'local people' hadn't changed we would still be living in a field.
...increasing property prices is the only wider social consequence anyone has suggested?...
Wrong, I suggest you re-read.
tarannau
24-01-2006, 12:57
Why not? If the social makeup of 'local people' hadn't changed we would still be living in a field.
Wrong, I suggest you re-read.
Jesus Timothy, you're beginning to remind me of that patronising mini-git in that abysmal 'Sorry' sitcom.
Whilst I'm not entirely in agreement with Newbie, there is a real issue about the changing characteristics of Brixton's population, which - for better or worse - has become an area heavily associated with immigration and a sense of community absent in many parts of London. The Windrush generation and a many generations of locals deserve better than to displaced by ever rising property value and a profit-before-community approach to property sales.
It's a wider issue than Brixton no doubt, but the discussion certainly deserves better than a shittily reductive jibe about people 'living in a field.'
timothysutton1
24-01-2006, 13:54
edit
timothysutton1
24-01-2006, 13:55
...deserves better than a shittily reductive jibe about people 'living in a field.'
I am not being patronising or trying to make a cheap jibe. All I am trying to point out is that it was not that long ago Brixton WAS a green field:
Building started when Vauxhall Bridge first made the area a commutable suburb back in 1816. With the completion of the railway and tram in the late 1800s Brixton expanded radically and became a popular middle class neighbood. With the social upheavel of the turn of the century the middle class moved out and the working class moved in. By 1925 Brixton had become the major shopping and entertainment centre for South London with a notable Jewish population. Then in the 1940s and 1950s many of the immigrants who came to Britain from the West Indies settled in Brixton.
As you can see Brixton has, and always will, change. It's how it works.
tarannau
24-01-2006, 14:24
Most of us are aware of the history of the area thanks. You're still coming across as a patronising twazzock. Either that or you really believe that grossly oversimplified nonsense about it having to work like that.
I'm not sure what 'it' is meant to be, but development doesn't necessarily have to follow the pattern of the past. Nor is it necessarily beneficial to hold your hands up and take no action to shape what happens next.
I am not being patronising or trying to make a cheap jibe. All I am trying to point out is that it was not that long ago Brixton WAS a green field:Err, I think regulars to this forum are fully acquainted with Brixton's past.
http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/index.html
It's not only property owners who would benefit from better public transport links, surely? Anyone who commutes for work, or goes to and from to see friends, go out, etc, would also benefit. Might even mean less people driving, which is probably a good thing.
Giles..
Streathamite
24-01-2006, 15:41
true; but the same could be said of the good folk of lewisham, camberwell, peckham, greenwich etc; the key thing is how would S London benefit as a whole from the various proposals....
lang rabbie
24-01-2006, 17:29
It is only because Ken (and various other politicians of all colours) have been promoting the various routes proposed for the East London Line as a tube line that the estate agents and local papers have been over-selling it as a good news story for property-owners.
This is a big lie.
It will NOT run to tube frequencies
It will NOT have tube-type trains
AND (unless they completely reconstruct Canada Water's platforms, for which no budget has been identified) it will be limited to four car trains.
It will be operated as an overground rail service by a network rail franchisee, with the Mayor's "London Rail" division of TfL providing some revenue funding.
Despite this, I'm in favour of a Brixton station because it will give Brixton residents easier access to jobs in East London/Docklands.
timothysutton1
25-01-2006, 10:15
...acquainted with Brixton's past.
http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/index.html
Does this mean that you agree that change is inevitable?
tarannau
25-01-2006, 10:20
Does this mean that you agree that change is inevitable?
Do you only deal in gross, boneheaded oversimplifications timothy?
Of course some change is inevitable, but it's a nonsense to suggest that you can't help shape change.
Without the efforts of squatters and the resistance of others for example- and I'm sure you'll know this from your local history - central Brixton would have almost certainly turned out into another Elephant and Castle style concrete nightmare of high rises and flyovers.
timothysutton1
25-01-2006, 12:38
...boneheaded oversimplifications?...
A simple "I agree" would have been more polite.
tarannau
25-01-2006, 12:54
A simple "I agree" would have been more polite.
But I don't agree with your statement, certainly not in the limited and leading way it's phrased.
As for politeness, may I suggest that you engage with the debate and the points made, not write smartarse leading statements in a patronising, oversimplified manner.
OpalFruit
25-01-2006, 12:58
I agree with Lang Rabbie.
The other issues are more complex than 'better transport increases house prices and shaft the poor and the windrush generation' (meant as a short precis, not a dismissive parody).
Some of the Windrush generation in my family moved away because they wanted exactly the same things that the current genertion of property buyers want - good schools, less exposure to crime / drug dealers, and especially not to be associated with the more violent / drug-based opportunists. It wasn't poverty that forced them out.
Really poor people are not concerned with house prices, anyway. Even though Brixton is still lower than most other close-to-central London areas, home-owning has been out of reach for those living below the average wage.
The demographics of the area show high levels of unemployment, particularly male and single - parent families (no judgment on their situation, must that it is economically harder). Lambeth also has a high ratio of residential to business and commercial property. What is needed is better education, better access to jobs, and more social housing. I don't see how a new transport links blocks these, and would surely increase the chnaces of people travelling to work, and attracting employers into the area.
I agree with Lang Rabbie.
The other issues are more complex than 'better transport increases house prices and shaft the poor and the windrush generation' (meant as a short precis, not a dismissive parody).
aye but even that level of complexity is better than the "sure beats a 37 bus" that we started with (also not intended as a dismissive parody).
Really poor people are not concerned with house prices, anyway. Even though Brixton is still lower than most other close-to-central London areas, home-owning has been out of reach for those living below the average wage.
True, but those who grow up here are increasingly unable to compete with high achieving incomers to rent or buy and stay in the area.
It will NOT run to tube frequencies
It will NOT have tube-type trains
Phase 2 (which is what we're talking about) is expected to run 16 trains each way per hour. Every 4 minutes isn't far off tube frequencies.
source (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/rail/initiatives/ell-proposed-services.shtml)
OpalFruit
25-01-2006, 18:39
[QUOTE=newbie]aye but even that level of complexity is better than the "sure beats a 37 bus" that we started with (also not intended as a dismissive parody).
I also agree (with you, I think) that it is worth examining the motives, aims and objectives of those proposing a scheme, as well as all the potential effects, whatever they may be.
But I have seen much potentially beneficial action in Brixton in effect filibustered due to lengthy drawn out inability to make a decision, or collapsing in a chaos of in-fighting.
Pickman's model
25-01-2006, 18:42
...
But I have seen much potentially beneficial action in Brixton in effect filibustered due to lengthy drawn out inability to make a decision, or collapsing in a chaos of in-fighting.
so true (along with corruption, incompetence and worse). There's still a need to scrutinise the benefits, costs and consequences of change though, because there are plenty of examples of change which has been done to this community and not for, or from, it.
lang rabbie
26-01-2006, 14:02
Phase 2 (which is what we're talking about) is expected to run 16 trains each way per hour. Every 4 minutes isn't far off tube frequencies.
source (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/rail/initiatives/ell-proposed-services.shtml)
What that refers to is the number of trains to all destinations served by the various branches of the southern ELL extension through the existing tunnel under the Thames...
This equates to 12 trains per hour in each direction through the centre section. When phase two is delivered, the frequency will increase to 16 trains an hour. Phase one is expected to be in place by June 2010.
i.e. the route through Brixton gets 4 trains an hour - not a train every four minutes! :rolleyes:
Pickman's model
26-01-2006, 14:04
fair enough, really, considering brixton's hardly ill-served by publick transport.
i.e. the route through Brixton gets 4 trains an hour - not a train every four minutes! :rolleyes:
:o
:o
:(
citydreams
20-11-2008, 10:05
Anyone got £15 million??!!
In a letter to Mr Hoon, Mr Johnson wrote: "I urge you to agree to this £15.5million contribution at the earliest opportunity." The extension to Clapham Junction would deliver "significant benefits for a relatively deprived area," he said.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23589160-details/Boris%20begs%20for%20cash%20to%20rescue%20south%20London%20rail%20link/article.do?expand=true#StartComments
Without a new station interchange at Brixton, t'is rubbish.
citydreams
20-11-2008, 10:13
Agreed..
Any idea how much extra is needed for that to happen?
Any news on the Brixton Master Plan?
fair enough, really, considering brixton's hardly ill-served by publick transport.
It can be ill served depending on where you're trying to get to, or if the Victoria line is out again.
What isn't clear is whether anyone has ever looked at the feasibility of running them along the "Low Level" (SE&CR) line?
The 1894 map of Brixton shows that the low level station used to have four platforms:
http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/images/brixton-1894.jpg
one of which used to be built out into Brixton Station Road:
These two northern platforms were served by trains running east-west, although (not having a Bradshaw's Railway Comapanion of the era to hand) I'm not sure of their exact pattern of services.
Once the timetabling "slots" for Eurostar trains are no longer required when the terminus move from Waterloo to Kings Cross (from 2008?), I would have thought that more flexible timetabling allowing trains to move between the two sets of tracks between Brixton and Clapham High Street has to be a possibility.
[Edited add: removes anorak before going to pub]
*picks up anorak*
So, fellow spods, why can't we do this? (existing phase 2 route in single orange line)
http://www.extracrispy.co.uk/gallery2/d/6041-1/slondovergroundphase2option.PNG
Add a flat junction inbetween Denmark Hill and Brixton, and reopen platforms on Brixton Station Road.
Who's got detailed train frequency knowledge?
And yes, I am drawing south london's rail network for fun :o
Crispy I think I love you.
Anyway, and given it's been a three year bump on this thread I can't remember whether it was discussed, but could they not open the old East Brixton platforms more easily perhaps?
There's nothing left of East Brixton station - it would have to be all new platforms. And it's not as handy for interchange.
New platforms at Loughborough Junction are even harder to fit in btw. Railway platforms are long things...
Railway platforms are long things...
I think the carriages on the type of units that pass that way are 23.5m long? A typical 8 carriage train would need a minimum of 188m (more like 200m probably) for a platform.
The ELL trains are going to be 4-car units, so as long as main line trains won't be using the station, we can get away with 100m.
lang rabbie
21-11-2008, 00:17
And yes, I am drawing south london's rail network for fun :o
:(
(((Crispy)))
There's nothing left of East Brixton station - it would have to be all new platforms. And it's not as handy for interchange.
New platforms at Loughborough Junction are even harder to fit in btw. Railway platforms are long things...The problem with East Brixton was that the platforms were very narrow and the line is (apparently) on quite a slope.
*picks up anorak*
So, fellow spods, why can't we do this? (existing phase 2 route in single orange line)
http://www.extracrispy.co.uk/gallery2/d/6041-1/slondovergroundphase2option.PNG
Add a flat junction inbetween Denmark Hill and Brixton, and reopen platforms on Brixton Station Road.
Who's got detailed train frequency knowledge?
And yes, I am drawing south london's rail network for fun :o
:D
Taking the length of the junction West of Peckham Rye [satellite (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=brixton,+london,+UK&sll=50.363423,-4.032326&sspn=0.10184,0.30899&g=brixton&ie=UTF8&ll=51.469293,-0.078034&spn=0.000737,0.002414&t=h&z=19)] you'd be pushed to fit one between the underbridge ironwork where you've drawn it [here (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=brixton,+london,+UK&sll=50.363423,-4.032326&sspn=0.10184,0.30899&g=brixton&ie=UTF8&ll=51.46506,-0.101363&spn=0.000737,0.002414&t=h&z=19)]. (Is it a camera artefact, or is there a nasty wobbly viaduct just east of there?)
You could squeeze one in [here (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=brixton,+london,+UK&sll=50.363423,-4.032326&sspn=0.10184,0.30899&g=brixton&ie=UTF8&ll=51.466888,-0.093389&spn=0.000737,0.002414&t=h&z=19)] but I mean "squeeze" - it'd butt straight onto an existing crossover.
If I read the photo correctly - a big if - [here (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=brixton,+london,+UK&sll=50.363423,-4.032326&sspn=0.10184,0.30899&g=brixton&ie=UTF8&ll=51.464542,-0.104249&spn=0.000737,0.002414&t=h&z=19)] is a possibility.
But, again, it's fairly close to other junctions, so I fear you may have to double or treble the impact on available paths compared to a new flat junction in open country.
Actually, looking at the satellite, there's scope for the junction just after you come out of the Denmark Hill bridge.
The cheapest and simplest solution is simply to reinstate the old platforms
However, it would mean points being laid on the bridge over the Blackfirars Herne Hill line(cheaper and more dangerous method) or by building flyover bridges - a bit tight on the old space along that line - unless it is done, before Denmark hill
I was looking at it on the way into work yeaterday- the prob being that some of the park, Warwick Gardens, would be lost - but then at one point that was going to be where the tunnelk for Eurostar was possibly going to emerge- dont recall much by the way of local opposition
Heres (http://www.multimap.com/maps/?qs=bellenden+road+se15&countryCode=GB#map=51.4691,-0.07421|17|4&bd=useful_information&loc=GB:51.46583:-0.07421:17|bellenden%20road%20se15|Bellenden%20Road,%20London,%20England,%20SE15%205) where I mean
lang rabbie
21-11-2008, 18:09
I was looking at it on the way into work yeaterday- the prob being that some of the park, Warwick Gardens, would be lost - but then at one point that was going to be where the tunnelk for Eurostar was possibly going to emerge- dont recall much by the way of local opposition
:confused: :confused::confused:
Peckham Against the Rail Link (PEARL) were one of the most succesful campaign groups I've encountered.
The campaigns against the Link were largely successful. The current route through London is the most acceptable route for many campaigning groups. The Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration reported in 1995 that one of the reasons for abandoning the route through Peckham, originally selected out of the four original proposals and abandoned in 1993, was the high levels of public opposition it aroused and which would have made it almost impossible for BR to secure planning permission. The success of the PEARL campaign can be attributed to the persistence of the campaigning group and the professional skills which it deployed:
‘I think the success of the organisation was that there were a lot of people round here of considerable acumen. It was not difficult to find lawyers, barristers and architects and professional people, all of whom were very able
both to organise and to make themselves heard ... Many people regard it as one of the most effective campaigns, ever really. I've heard it said many times that it was a model of how a campaign should be organised.’
(Kinrade interview, 2001).
PEARL capitalised on the strength of local feeling, and upon the skills and talents of professional people in the local community. The campaign was organised into a main committee, and had events, legal, technical and publicity sub-committees. The group held many successful events, including public meetings, fetes and fairs. On one occasion, Kinrade dressed as Father Christmas and presented Trafalgar House (the building contractors) with a huge Christmas card signed by thousands of opponents of the Link
through Warwick Gardens.
‘Everything was done with great vigour. Lots of stunts. Lots of things which embarrassed British Rail, and made them feel very uncomfortable. Because they were, after all, really only officials doing a job. And I think they had not anticipated that there would be very much protest. I think that they thought they'd got a soft option really in south London. Old property. I think it came as a great shock that they met this level of resistance’
(Kinrade interview, 2001).
PEARL still exists nominally today, and many of the people who were involved in the campaign remain residents of the area. The committee still hold meetings, although these are now very infrequent and have mainly been to discuss how its funds will be disbursed. Kinrade is unwilling to let PEARL disband completely :
‘PEARL is still here because we never quite got rid of the idea that something might go wrong, and they might change their minds and so part of the continuity of PEARL has simply been ‘we never know’. Perhaps it would be as well to stay at least in moribund, so we can resurrect it if we have to.’ (Kinrade interview, 2001).
The campaign against the CTRL can, in retrospect be seen as a turning point in the recovery of the identity of south east London as an urban environment worth saving and a series of communities worth preserving, rather than simply a run-down area with concentrated social deprivation, the poor relation in London’s renaissance. We cannot confidently compare local environmentalism before and after the CTRL campaign, but our examination of the later period shows that south east London is now home to a rich and diverse range of environmental activism and defies the generalisation that environmentalism does not flourish in socially deprived urban areas.
Rootes, Adams, Saunders: Local environmental politics in England, University of Kent 2001 (http://www.essex.ac.uk/ECPR/events/jointsessions/paperarchive/grenoble/ws10/rootes1.pdf)
And I lived just round the corner at the time....suspect twas in my wasted to fuck period!!!:D
Having examined the crossover just after Peckham Rye just this morning I realise there is actually no need for the bridges at all
The line to North Dulcih, Gypsy Hill etc already crosses tha London Bridge-Victoria line, a relaying of those points to permit cossing to the Catford - Victoria tracks as there is already a crossover in the other direction used by freight traffic would concentrate all at one point - thus reducing like fuck ups
PacificOcean
24-11-2008, 14:03
I wonder why they never built a station at Brixton in the first place?
It also takes a strange detour from Victoria to Wandsworth Road via Battersea Park unlike the other lines going south east from Victoria,
I assume Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street used to be four platform stations as I saw a very old picture of Wandsworth Road station advertising trains Victoria, St. Pauls & Ludgate Hill and trains "to the coast".
ska invita
25-11-2008, 00:38
When I was working in Brixton it was really annoying having to get buses from Lewisham to Brixton, if it did stop it would make it a lot easier to get around South London.
that must be the p4. at least after ken the service was improved, but before that ive waited a full hour for that bus on a sunday.
im still bitter about it!
I've been looking at trains per hour running through the various bits of track around Brixton, and it does look like switching the Overground trains through the old platforms is a no-go :( There's too many trains coming through from Herne and Denmark Hills on that line, it'd get all snarled up.
My railway network diagram now stretches from Clapham Junction to New Cross To Croydon :o :o :o
I assume Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street used to be four platform stations as I saw a very old picture of Wandsworth Road station advertising trains Victoria, St. Pauls & Ludgate Hill and trains "to the coast".
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/s/snow_hill/snow_hill_map.gif
Ludgate Hill Station was on the bridge between Blackfriars(originally known as St Pauls) and High Holborn, the link still exists but is just used to movge empty stock around now. You can see the lines to the west of Loughborugh Junction
You can't hotlink subbrit images
oops, sorry
PS Whats a subbrit image?
lang rabbie
26-11-2008, 21:30
oops, sorry
PS Whats a subbrit image?
an image on the Subterranea Britannnica "subbrit" website
Link to Ludgate Hill page on subbrit (http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/s/snow_hill/)
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