Last stop for the Routemaster :(

[cockneyrebel]

The 159 is on its last day today....here's what my ex girlfriend sent me:

Is the last day of the routemaster. Always think of buses like elephants and this morning they were all coming into the garage after their last journeys and they looked like old elephants that were too old to work anymore so were being put on the scrapheap! Was really sad and all the drivers and conductors were there all looking sad like they were losing an old friend! (yes I know I have issues!)

:( :( :(

I feel sad about it myself.....you bastard Ken.....

[potential]

there were hundreds of bus spotters along the brixton rd yesterday
clicking away capturing the moment to posperity...
its nice to see the realy old routemasters with all the origional
advertising on them oxo etc........

[lang rabbie]

As I walked across Trafalgar Square to a meeting, there was row of some 30 photographers (carnivorous press pros jostling the herbivorous bus spotters) kerb to kerb across Charles II island at the top of Whitehall, all battling for the iconic photo of a 159 passing in front of Nelson's column.

And it seems everyone, Londoners as well as tourists, is taking photos on their camera phones.

[Belushi]

A sad day for Londoners :(

I used to get one everyday from Charing Cross to the Albert Hall, there's no better way to see the City than hanging out of the back door.

[Brainaddict]

Didn't plan it, but I got a 159 this morning. What are you doing Ken, you fucker? :mad:

[cockneyrebel]

I'm quite angry about this :( :mad:

Ken you piece of shit.....

[memespring]

I got the 159 in to town today (even though it doesn go anywhere near where I work).

:(

[fanta]

Good riddance to them! :)

[Callie]

Does your g/f work at Brixton garage?

[fanta]

Mine? Not that I know of.

[Callie]

Thats good to know, neither does mine. What about you CR??

[dogmatique]

I've heard an ugly rumour that they're being replaced by bendy buses. Can anyone reassure me that this isn't the case?

[Yossarian]

You'll all be teary-eyed over the last bendy bus in a few decades...

[cockneyrebel]

Thats good to know, neither does mine. What about you CR??

No, she gets on the bus to work next to streatham bus garage....

I hate those bendy buses....

[Hanfstaengl]

I would like to see a link about routemasters in London, please :)

[dogmatique]

You'll all be teary-eyed over the last bendy bus in a few decades...

Erm.... Idon'tfuckinthinkso!! :D

[Callie]

I've heard an ugly rumour that they're being replaced by bendy buses. Can anyone reassure me that this isn't the case?

The routemasters ARE NOT going to be replaced by bendy buses.

[dogmatique]

Do you promise?

[Callie]

I promise.

[dogmatique]

Phew.

[editor]

I was out taking a few pics today... there's loads of people out there, riding the buses or taking snaps. It's very sad...

[hendo]

I was all ready to be sad about this until a party in the summer, when a disabled man explained to me how rubbish they are for the less than able bodied. He then waxed lyrical about, guess what, the bendy buses.

[dogmatique]

Last one should be leaving Marble Arch about now... :(

[WWWeed]

I really wish I had a few grand spare when TfL where selling them off. Cant imagen the negbours would be too happy with it parked outside my house tho ;)

[dogmatique]

I was all ready to be sad about this until a party in the summer, when a disabled man explained to me how rubbish they are for the less than able bodied. He then waxed lyrical about, guess what, the bendy buses.

A blind chap was sat in front of me this morning telling an interviewer how much he's going to miss them as conductors make his life so much easier as they can help him to a seat.

[hendo]

I see some disabled people have turned up in Oxford Street to celebrate the Routemaster's demise.

[tastebud]

i got it this morning without planning too. it was rammed. i said my goodbyes. very very sad indeed. silly silly ken!

[cockneyrebel]

I'm sure they could have been changed to make them more friendly for disabled people. Also dogmatique is right, they actually helped a lot of disabled people out, like the blind, as the conductors could give people a hand.

They also made a lot of people (especially the elderly, women travelling at night etc) feel a lot safer as there was a conductor on board.....

[hendo]

But presumably there's nothing, apart from costs, stopping TFL from putting a conductor on any other kind of bus.

[dogmatique]

There was a proposed new design - the Q-Master or something, which was designed by some of the original Routemaster team, would have been built in London, and have disabled access and an open platform.

Guess what? Bendy friggin buses instead.

[Callie]

But presumably there's nothing, apart from costs, stopping TFL from putting a conductor on any other kind of bus.


That and the fact that theyve now made all the conductors redundant or employed them elsewhere and that theyve no need for them.

[Orang Utan]

Why is it sad?
Routemasters are shit - good riddance to them - they were dangerous, uncomfortable and impossible to get on and off when crowded.
Try using one if you're old and frail, or if you have a pram, in fact, if you are a typical user of buses.

[cockneyrebel]

And there's nothing stopping them, apart from costs, making the routemasters more usable for the disabled.....

But the fact of the matter is TfL aren't gonna put conductors on the other buses, so the last buses with conductors on, which made a lot of people feel safe, are now gone.

[hendo]

Am I right in saying the new design of buses can actually lower themselves at the kerb to allow disabled access?

[Orang Utan]

And there's nothing stopping them, apart from costs, making the routemasters more usable for the disabled.....


They weren't adaptable though - how do you make a Routemaster accessible for a wheelchair/pushchair?

[cockneyrebel]

Try using one if you're old and frail, or if you have a pram, in fact, if you are a typical user of buses.

A lot of older people like the routemaster because it had a conductor on board who could help them out. The same goes with prams.

I use buses all the time and I'm gutted they're gone....

[Callie]

Yeah its great that having a conductor on a bus makes passengers feel safe but I wonder how many conductors felt safe themselves? I mean would you if you had to confront passengers on a daily basis.

[cockneyrebel]

They weren't adaptable though - how do you make a Routemaster accessible for a wheelchair/pushchair?

Q-Masters, as said above.....

[Callie]

Am I right in saying the new design of buses can actually lower themselves at the kerb to allow disabled access?


When did you last travel on a bus? Theyve been doing this for ages!

[cockneyrebel]

Yeah its great that having a conductor on a bus makes passengers feel safe but I wonder how many conductors felt safe themselves? I mean would you if you had to confront passengers on a daily basis.

I agree. But by that logic you might as well get rid of any remaining station guards as well......

[Orang Utan]

A lot of older people like the routemaster because it had a conductor on board who could help them out. The same goes with prams.

You still can't get on a Routmester with a wheelchair

[Orang Utan]

Q-Masters, as said above.....
That's a new bus, not an adaptation.
The buses that are used now still sound like a more practical option.

[cockneyrebel]

You still can't get on a Routmester with a wheelchair

They could have made Q-Masters.....

But as said, there were pros and cons. Now they've got rid of the last buses with conductors on them which were really appreciated by a lot of old people, women travelling at night, blind people etc etc

[hendo]

When did you last travel on a bus? Theyve been doing this for ages!

Funnily enough, yesterday, though I've never been on one that's done the lowering thing.

My view of this has been coloured by helping to make a film about disabled access to public transport, or rather, the scandalous lack of it. Brixton's lift for the tube is still not sorted, for example.

I think public transport should be just that, not just for the able bodied.

[Bob]

Funnily enough, yesterday, though I've never been on one that's done the lowering thing.

My view of this has been coloured by helping to make a film about disabled access to public transport, or rather, the scandalous lack of it. Brixton's lift for the tube is still not sorted, for example.

I think public transport should be just that, not just for the able bodied.

Which is why having a new routemaster - which is both disabled friendly and has an open back would be a good idea. Best of both worlds - plus huge time savings for people because they can hop on and off. There would be some cost but London has a huge bus fleet and the savings in travellers time would be huge.

(With my economists hat on I'd reckon maybe a few minutes a day for maybe a quarter of the 5 million bus journesy each day. Valuing time at £5 an hour - low in my opinion - this would save £200,000 of people's time a day if all buses were hop on and off = £70m a year)

I bet you've been on one before that does the lowering thing - they only do it on request so you only see it when a wheelchair user or somebody with arthritis or something asks.

[editor]

What's the chance of these new bendy buses still being in service and loved by the public in fifty years?

Big fat zero, if you ask me.

[William of Walworth]

You'll all be teary-eyed over the last bendy bus in a few decades...

Rubbish.

Anyone fearing the arrival of bendies in Brixton, can be (slightly) reassured by the fact that the 159 is being replaced by normal (new) double deckers

[memespring]

Bendy busses are like traveling in a vacuum cleaner hose.

[William of Walworth]

Funnily enough, yesterday, though I've never been on one that's done the lowering thing.

My view of this has been coloured by helping to make a film about disabled access to public transport, or rather, the scandalous lack of it. Brixton's lift for the tube is still not sorted, for example.

I think public transport should be just that, not just for the able bodied.

We've done all this before in other RM threads, but hendo, do you SERIOUSLY think that the REAL reason for the abolition of the Routemaster was accessibility for disabled people?

[Roadkill]

It's sad to think that, by the time I next come to London, there'll be no more of these on the streets - or only a few, confined to 'heritage routes.' I'd have liked to have amde it down for the farewell aprty, or today, to watch the last ones at work.

http://www.dreamgroove.com/images/routemaster.jpg

They'll be missed.

RIP RM.

:(

[hendo]

We've done all this before in other RM threads, but hendo, do you SERIOUSLY think that the REAL reason for the abolition of the Routemaster was accessibility for disabled people?

On reflection, no. I'm just trying to find a silver lining.

[miss minnie]

We've done all this before in other RM threads, but hendo, do you SERIOUSLY think that the REAL reason for the abolition of the Routemaster was accessibility for disabled people?
so what is the real reason then?

i would guess the cost of maintaining such an old fleet. living next to a bus stop on the brixton road, as i do, i have a view that regularly includes a routemaster with a seat propped up behind it to indicate a breakdown.

[dogmatique]

Number of Routemasters to have caught fire due to mechanical failure 1954 - 2005: 2

Number of Bendy Buses to have caught fire due to mechanical failure 2003 - 2005: 7

[Orang Utan]

Indeed, they were so old - I bet they cost a lot to maintain. People need to ditch the misty-eyed nostalgia and realise that Routemasters were dinosaurs and desperately needed to be replaced if we were going to be serious about making transport available for all.

[Roadkill]

Indeed, they were so old - I bet they cost a lot to maintain. People need to ditch the misty-eyed nostalgia and realise that Routemasters were dinosaurs and desperately needed to be replaced if we were going to be serious about making transport available for all.

Aside from the issue of disabled access, I simply don't think that's true.

Firstly, you Londoners are spoilt with decent buses ( ;) :p ). Round here, most buses are more than 10 years old and few have disabled access. against the, the RM doesn't show up too badly. Indeed, a few of them were purchased for service in Hull in the early '90s, although they're gone now.

AFAIk they're not expensive to maintain. They're more fuel-efficient than a lot of modern buses since they're relatively light and aerodynamic, and their reliability record is good. Moreover, the simple front-engined layout makes servicing very easy. I remember seeing a programme some years ago in which it was stated that an engine change on a Routemaster takes under a day: on a modern rear-engined bus it takes more like three days.

Nor do they pump out more in the way of black smoke and fumes than other buses, as some people suggest: all of the surviving ones were re-engined a few years ago - not for the first time - with modern, clean-burn engines.

Yes, they're old-fashioned but they still have their advantages, and they're something of an institution. I'm sorry they're gone.

[boohoo]

Indeed, they were so old - I bet they cost a lot to maintain. People need to ditch the misty-eyed nostalgia and realise that Routemasters were dinosaurs and desperately needed to be replaced if we were going to be serious about making transport available for all.

Although the routemasters weren't perfect - lots of school kids all trying to get through the bus's tiny entrance/exit at the same time springs to mind - but the bendy buses aren't that great. They are very slow and take up alot of space on the roads - alot of vehicles won't let them pull out. The bendies can't really overtake other buses as they're too long. Difficult for pedestrians to get past if the bus decides to stop over a crossing. The bendy bit of the bus is rather dangerous on turns - your feet go one way, and whatever you are holding onto goes the other.

I can probably list the faults of the routemaster too.....

[cockneyrebel]

A poll I saw on a news programme a short while ago showed the big majority of Londoners didn't want to see them go.

Yes there is the issue of disable access but there is also the issue of conductors making them better for the elderly, women at night, blind people etc And the Q-Master could have solved the disabled issue in the long run. You can't just dismiss the love of these buses that most Londoners have, even if it is misty eyed to you.

But this goes hand in hand with a demise in services for working class people in the past 20 years. When I was a kid about 20 years back you had conductors on all the buses, guards on trains and on the stations, caretakers (both on estates and in schools), park keepers etc etc now you have none of those and it harms communities in a big way IMO. On top of that you didn't have to pay for prescriptions, dental care, eye tests....

And now they're saying the pension ages is gonna go up to 69......a lot of things have definately got worse for the working class in the last 20 years......

[William of Walworth]

so what is the real reason then?

i would guess the cost of maintaining such an old fleet. living next to a bus stop on the brixton road, as i do, i have a view that regularly includes a routemaster with a seat propped up behind it to indicate a breakdown.

Dogmatique's answered the qurestion re breakdowns, they were less frequent than people think.

I imagine that if they were breaking down more frequently recently, it would be because the tail end of the 159 fleet looked terribly undermaintained, in preparation for retirement/sell off presumably.

The real reason was to save money, largely by sacking conductors.

The RMs were reaching the end of their natural life true, but I'd doubt to the extent that a full engine and interior refurb wouldn't have sorted them out for a few more years, pending (in an ideal parallel universe) the design of a replacement New RM, analagous to the new taxis. If Transport for London (or the bus companies??) had not been so stingy, they would have commissioned the new version of the RM, the QRM, designed by a team led by Colin Curtis (original Routemaster engineer).


Sadly I can't find any information about the QRM on the web :(
I've never seen a picture, but apparantly those new QRMs were fully accessible.

When I have time, I'll find my old rant about how, in Travis Elsborough's book, the RMs demise is attributed in part to some Yank tourist lawyer-chasing tosser falling off a bus in Putney and sueing TfL for over £2 million quid .... successfully! :mad: :mad:

They feared furrther actions.

[William of Walworth]

Q-Master!!

<off to attempt a Google>

<edit to add> ARSE!! Utter failure ... :( :mad:

[Stobart Stopper]

I fell of a number 58 Routemaster once, 1980 it was.

[William of Walworth]

I fell of a number 58 Routemaster once, 1980 it was.

Bet you didn't get £2 million quid though ... :D :p

[Orang Utan]

Although the routemasters weren't perfect - lots of school kids all trying to get through the bus's tiny entrance/exit at the same time springs to mind - but the bendy buses aren't that great. They are very slow and take up alot of space on the roads - alot of vehicles won't let them pull out. The bendies can't really overtake other buses as they're too long. Difficult for pedestrians to get past if the bus decides to stop over a crossing. The bendy bit of the bus is rather dangerous on turns - your feet go one way, and whatever you are holding onto goes the other.

I can probably list the faults of the routemaster too.....
Who's talking about bendies though? I think the consensus is that they are shit - prone to catching fire and dangerous for cyclists, plus what you mention above. The new double deckers are the best option. You can get on one of there buses if you are in a wheelchair, you cannot on a Routemaster. This reason and this reason alone is all you need to justify phasing out Routemasters.

[boohoo]

Who's talking about bendies though? I think the consensus is that they are shit - prone to catching fire and dangerous for cyclists, plus what you mention above. The new double deckers are the best option. You can get on one of there buses if you are in a wheelchair, you cannot on a Routemaster. This reason and this reason alone is all you need to justify phasing out Routemasters.

But the bendies do seem to be replacing the majority of routemaster services. I think people might have been happier with the routemasters being replaced only with double deckers - it's not such a drastic change - it feels familiar. And they seem to be less problematic then the bendies.

However, I like the routemasters cos they look nice and I grew up going to school on the 2b and the 174. And if anyone would like to buy me one for christmas, I will be very happy. :D

[Guineveretoo]

The bendies are crap for loads of reasons, one of which is that they take up more roadspace, as a consequence of which, TfL has just had to extend the bus station a little bit. In the Good Old Days, there was always a queue of 38s at Victoria, which moved along as the one at the front left. Now, they can only get 2 in at a time, and there are often none at all, just a queue of people waiting. So they must have put fewer buses on, which means that the commuter is not as well served.

BRING BACK THE ROUTEMASTER

Or, at least, replace it with another double decker, for crying out loud! :mad:

[Stobart Stopper]

http://www.mysterymag.com/hauntedbritain/?page=article&subID=78&artID=274

[citydreams]

Why couldn't those with prams just hold on to the back of the bus like we did with our skateboards?!

Peter Hendy of TfL (he who gave the RM the axe) was on the Today programme this morning to justify Ken's remark "only a moron would scrap the routemasters".
I think he got off very lightly as Cameron was up for a right grilling.

[lang rabbie]

Q-Master!!

<off to attempt a Google>

<edit to add> ARSE!! Utter failure ... :( :mad:

Building the “Son of Routemaster”: Some Real Alternatives Which
Transport for London Passed Up by Andrew Morgan
(http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/uploads/media/RoutemasterBook.pdf)
page 36 et seq.

There you go.

Why do we informed amateurs always seem better able to retrieve information than posters with paid jobs in "infomation science" ;)

[Bob]

I'm not sure what a modern bus does but when we looked up the fuel consumption of a routemaster on the farewell party it turned out they only did 8 miles to the gallon.

So about £5 of petrol alone to do 8 miles - which on average they'll carry 30 passengers...

[editor]

Load of pics from today's final day here (http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/routemaster1.html)

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/images/routemaster04.jpg

The very last bus (with huge police escort in tow!)
http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/images/routemaster08.jpg

And from yesterday...
http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/images/routemaster03.jpg

:(

[Bob]

Amazingly according to the pamphlet I've just read on the routemasters they're about 1/3 more fuel efficient than standard london buses.....

[pooka]

Those pics brought to mind the 'night of the last tram' in Sheffield, way back in 196summat. Much more spectacular mind, given that the trams were lit from top to toe, in glorious procession, and we all put pennies on the tracks to get them 'bent by the last tram' - I've still got mine somewhere.

[Stobart Stopper]

It's really sad looking at the Editor's pics, even worse if you are an oldie like me. Used to travel on them all the way from Leyton (38) to Clapton Pond (253) ..to Cambridge Heath Rd, every weekend without fail. I remember when people could smoke on them.... I think they had to go upstairs though......the old style noisy ticket dispensers, with letters for the number of stops you were travelling.Routemasters had a very distinct smell, hard to describe really. Always tried to sit at the front behind the driver in the winter as that was the warmest place. Boy did they used to steam up or what?
They must have been buggers to drive, the big silver dial for the indicators......... struggling up the hill at Chingford Mount, still can't believe they made it up there. They used to chug along like old tanks on hills.
Oh yes, and my brother remembers London trolleybuses! How fucking old is that??????? :D

[Stobart Stopper]

More memories:
The 38 used to go from Leyton Green bus garage to Victoria, the 48 used to go from Whipps Cross to London Bridge and the 55 used to go from Chingford Mount to Aldwych. The first route in Leyton to get the new style closed bus IIRC was the 55. Then there was the 69 routemaster, that ran from Chingford to North Woolwich, many a long summer's day for east end kids was spent on that bus, it was a big adventure. Kids didn't usually vandalise buses in those days, I remember one particular lady conductoress (as they were called) on one bus route who would smack us around the head if we played up. Or they would pick kids up and throw them off the bus.
Once, in about 1978/9, we were travelling on a routemaster to school (58) and this kid was pissing around at the top of the stairs, lost his grip and fell down the stairs and onto the road, think he died. This happened outside the Standard public house at Blackhorse Road.

[lang rabbie]

The surrealism of today continues. Just spotted this...
Bell-ringers at St Leonard's Church, Streatham, plan to sound their bells half muffled today from 6.30pm to about 9pm as a final tribute to the Routemaster.

[editor]

The 6 o'clock news showed traffic grinding to a halt in Oxford Street as the last Routemaster left, and the entire BBC London news evening broadcast was dedicated to the bus!

[Stobart Stopper]

From the BBC:"Forty passengers joined dignitaries on the 159 route in Oxford St on the 1208 service which was 26 minutes late."


Any idea who these "dignitaries" were? :confused:
Probably the first time they have ever set foot on a bloody bus. :mad:

[Maggot]

Like most people I'm sad to see the Routemaster go.

Disabled access
At the risk of being controversial, I have hardly ever seen clearly disabled people using buses. I haven't noticed a great increase in disabled users since easy-access buses were introduced. Should something so loved be scrapped because of a tiny minority who could easily use other routes with modern buses on.

Another alternative would be to run Routemasters and easy-access buses alternately on the same route. Most of the last Routemaster routes had frequent services and any disabled person waiting might have to wait a few extra minutes, just as parents with buggies do already.

Anyway it's too late now. :(

[trashpony]

On the disabled access front, in a survey 87% of disabled people said they wanted the Routemaster to stay.

And conductors (and that little space under the stairs) are a bloody godsend if you're travelling with anyone with a disability, children or big bags/cases IME

It's a crying shame. I'd slap Ken round the face for this if I could :mad:

[articletwo]

By coincidence, we ended up driving into Brixton just as the last Routemaster came through - in fact, we were held at the lights at Coldharbour Lane/Brixton Road by the police outriders until it had passed (just to the right of the Editor's photo). We then followed it down Brixton Hill, to the most amazing sight - people everywhere, and the children from Corpus Christi school all lined up waving Union flags.
It is very sad to see them go, but the world moves on and they were terrible for people in wheelchairs or with pushchairs. But when they final get rid of the bendy buses I don't think the crowds will be turning out (other than to praise the decision ...)

[dogmatique]

More fond Routemaster memories (permanent ones)

Failing to land properly on the platform of a moving 159, Regent Street, October 1998:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/1866/leg4sr.jpg

My leg, earlier today.

Ooh, that smarted. What a flesh wound, eh?

I wear it with pride :o

it looks much worse "in real life" honest... you try running your finger over it... no flesh! Ew!

[Harold Hill]

You still can't get on a Routmester with a wheelchair

Some of the sightseeing Routemasters were fitted with wheelchair access. Tfl parroting this stuff about getting rid of them for disability reasons is a lie.

[Harold Hill]

If people feel as strongly as they do then maybe people should make more of a fuss. The case for a new 21st century Routemaster is ridiculously strong with added wheelchair access - you can offset the costs of manufacturing a new bus by sharing the cost with operators in Hong Kong/Singapore/India where there is extremely high demand for bus travel. And offset the cost of conductors against the money thrown at expensive tram lines which inevitably won't get the green light and the larger number of fare evading teams you now find on the buses. Higher patronage, greater security, quicker running times, huge amounts of bus subsidy swimming about.....

Looking at the link, you have a former Cabinet Minister and 2 nationally known journalists, both who regulalry write for the Standard prepared to support it and Livingstone when prompted by Nick Ferrari on televised hustings before the Mayoral vote, did seemed prepared to at least listen to a case for a new Routemaster. If he didn't want to hear it then we all know the real reason for the RM demise was to save money by sacking hundreds of clippies.

Sadly though, I get the feeling its one of those things people will moan about to their friends but not be arsed enough to write an email or letter about

[oryx]

I'm sad to see Routemasters go. I have lovely memories of the comfort of that upper deck back seat and of the comfort of having a conductor, and the feel of those orderly upholstered seats.

But the disabled access argument is too hard to ignore, & also I read today (BBC website) that they were involved in many more accidents.

I think the utter crap on wheels which has replaced them is a big issue. Those Plaxton (?) double deckers are horrendous - uncomfortable seats & hard to hold onto anything in the rear area, plus the heat belching out from the rear engines in summer. The safety problems of bendy buses have been mentioned here too.

I would have preferred to see the retention of Routemasters with regular small & accessible bus services for wheelchair and pram users.

[fanta]

Why is it sad?

It isn't.

A sad day for London?

Piss off.

This false sentimentality is bollox!

:)

[fanta]

Anyone fearing the arrival of bendies in Brixton, can be (slightly) reassured by the fact that the 159 is being replaced by normal (new) double deckers

Good. So that means people in wheelchairs won't be excluded like they were with archaic Routemasters! :)

[editor]

It isn't.

A sad day for London?

Piss off.Clearly sad for some people, no?

You know, like the thousands of people who lined the streets and caused Oxford Street to grind to a halt as the last Routemaster went by?

[Roadkill]

Nice pictures editor. :)

I particularly like this one - very atmospheric.


http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/images/routemaster04.jpg :(

[cockneyrebel]

I'd slap Ken round the face for this if I could

Same here. He's such a tosser.

Agree with Harold Hill about the need for some kind of protest. Loads of people feel strongly about his, whatever fanta says, and call it misty eyed nostalga, sad or anything else but the ending of the routemaster was a sad day for a lot of people. And for a lot of old people, the blind, women at night etc etc it is a very real issue that the last buse with conductors have gone....

Nice pictures ed......

:(

[Callie]

So how would people feel about having a security type person on buses to replace conductors?

Conductors are simply NOT needed on any of the buses now running. They were there purely to collect fares. If you want to feel safe and secure and have someone to carry your bags (!) how about a nice beefy security guard? I can't imagine anyone agreeing to that.

[BarryB]

Same here. He's such a tosser.

Agree with Harold Hill about the need for some kind of protest. Loads of people feel strongly about his, whatever fanta says, and call it misty eyed nostalga, sad or anything else but the ending of the routemaster was a sad day for a lot of people. And for a lot of old people, the blind, women at night etc etc it is a very real issue that the last buse with conductors have gone....

Nice pictures ed......

:(

Buses without conducters have been around for years. A bit late to protest now. Anyway since most people have Oyster cards, Travelpasses or Freedom passes and the buses will be going onto a cashless system (2007?)
there has been for several years very little work for conducters do. Anyway its not like Routemasters have been 100% withdrawn from London bus routes. They are still working on stretches of the 9 and 15 routes. Heritage routes as described. Gives tourists something to photograph. But fares on them remain the same as before. So Londoners can still use them.

BarryB

[Harold Hill]

I reckon Andrew Gilligan makes an excellent point about this in the link posted. TfL are there to provide a public service, by definition this should mean providing the best public service at a reasonable cost. By getting rid of conductors and forcing every passenger to pay before hand, it is less convenient for the public - the public have to do it on their time rather than the company's, which seeing as we pay for this, is unreasonable. Even TfLs own figures state fare evasion on bendy buses is double that of a Routemaster.

I've read a bit of history about LT. At the end of the 60s, they tried to introduce flat fares and single deckers as a way of cutting waiting times and removing the need for a conductor. What happened? It failed. Why? It wasn't practical and the single deckers used were widely hated and withdrawn within 10 years. I see no reason why history won't repeat itself.

Anybody reasonably minded wants an integrated transport system. To provide that, I think you need to make public transport as accessible and attractive as possible - this means multiple ways of paying, it means security, it means a simple, identifiable route system - not the hundreds of routes we currently have where there is a lot of duplication.

I don't think the Routemaster should be kept (its 50 years old) but I do think a replacement should have been on the streets years ago and TfL should have at least showed a bit more gratitude to a vehicle that has outlived virtually every other bus built in the last century (even the 90s) and has saved them millions over the years in vehicle replacement, probably 4 or 5 times over.

[BarryB]

I reckon Andrew Gilligan makes an excellent point about this in the link posted. TfL are there to provide a public service, by definition this should mean providing the best public service at a reasonable cost. By getting rid of conductors and forcing every passenger to pay before hand, it is less convenient for the public - the public have to do it on their time rather than the company's, which seeing as we pay for this, is unreasonable. Even TfLs own figures state fare evasion on bendy buses is double that of a Routemaster.

I've read a bit of history about LT. At the end of the 60s, they tried to introduce flat fares and single deckers as a way of cutting waiting times and removing the need for a conductor. What happened? It failed. Why? It wasn't practical and the single deckers used were widely hated and withdrawn within 10 years. I see no reason why history won't repeat itself.

Anybody reasonably minded wants an integrated transport system. To provide that, I think you need to make public transport as accessible and attractive as possible - this means multiple ways of paying, it means security, it means a simple, identifiable route system - not the hundreds of routes we currently have where there is a lot of duplication.

I don't think the Routemaster should be kept (its 50 years old) but I do think a replacement should have been on the streets years ago and TfL should have at least showed a bit more gratitude to a vehicle that has outlived virtually every other bus built in the last century (even the 90s) and has saved them millions over the years in vehicle replacement, probably 4 or 5 times over.

On the tubes and railways you have to pay beforehand so I dont see why it should be any different on buses.

There are more buses on Londons roads than ever before and more passengers. So someone is doing something right. You say there are hundreds of routes and a lot of duplication. Of course there are hundreds of routes. London is a huge city. Im not sure what you mean by duplication. Often several routes run on the same stretch of road for a while but there start and finish points are different. But of course there is scope for improvement but I fear what you are proposing would lead to a reduction in bus services. Perhaps you could give some examples of duplication?

I agree with you about the single deckers. In my area they got rid of double deckers on the 106 route and introduced single deckers. It was a disaster. So serious was the overcrowding they had to bring back double deckers. But we shouldent confuse those single deckers with bendy buses with have a far greater capcity.

BarryB

[Harold Hill]

Not if you like seats, another thing you need plenty of if you're trying to sell public transport to the public.

The current bus ticketing system isn't practical. Even the Mayor admitted they were 'duff' yet millions has been wasted implementing this. The saver tickets are the sensible measure if you are to pay before the journey.

And tell me how increaed passengers on bus services means somebody is doing something right when there is no clear evidence as to the motivation of people choosing to use buses now. Thanks to the Congestion Charge, many people could now be using the bus because they have been forced to or using the hundreds of bendy buses instead of the Tube because they can jib their fare more often than not. The official figures are 7% - I presume this is people caught. I'd love to know the percentage that get away with it if this is so.

This whole thing just shows bad management. The 38 and 73 are 2 of the busiest routes in London where many people commute into the West End from Islington, Stoke Newington, Dalston and Hackney because there is no train alternative. The running time is about 45 minutes to an hour. In the rush hour most of these buses are packed out from early in the route so not only do you have to queue to buy a ticket whilst people fumble for the right money, you then have the privilige of being squashed onto buses for up to an hour where the running time is no doubt slower then the Routemaster thanks to the turning on narrow streets. There have been various reports on lots of 38s having been turned around short of Victoria due to slow running. I'd put my mortgage on the Customer Satisfaction surveys being poor so the consequence of getting rid of the conductors is that the service has got worse for everyone.

As for duplication - I don't have the figures but I would estimate most bus journeys in London are for distances of three miles or less as for any longer distance journeys, the tube or overground does it quicker. Off the top of my head you have

59/159 from Lambeth North down to Streatham Hill
68/468 from Norwood to the Elephant & castle
5/87 along the Longbridge Road (87 is going next year though so obviously someone spotted that one)
14/414 from Hyde Park Corner to Putney
139/189 from Oxford Street to west hampstead
25/86 between Stratford and Ilford
19/22 from Slloane Square to Piccadilly Circus
48/55 from Shoreditch to Walthamstow
10/390 from Marble Arch to Kings Cross
36/436 from paddington to New Cross
53/453 from Whitehall to Deptford

As most of these routes are frequent, if you introduce through tickets, you could increase the frequency on one of most of the above and withdraw the other. The net result would be less buses on the roads, less mileage, less dead running to depots but not reduced frequencies on services.

[Maggot]

There are more buses on Londons roads than ever before and more passengers. So someone is doing something right. Yes Ken Livingstone and TfL. They have been rightly criticised for getting rid of the Routemaster, but overall bus services in London have improved massively since they took over.

[William of Walworth]

Good. So that means people in wheelchairs won't be excluded like they were with archaic Routemasters! :)

You clearly don't give the slightest shit about disabled access (neither do TfL all that much, in reality -- read the thread), otherwise you'd have paid a minor amount of attention to all the posts outlining the alternatives that would have enhanced disabled access, short of abolishig the Routemaster.

EG commissioning a new design of the Routemaster, or alternating easy access buses with existing RMs on the same route, or whatever.

In other words, you're trolling -- because you're ignoring the substantive points, and youlre just saying 'good riddance' just to be oh-so-'controversial' :rolleyes:

If everyone in this thread was celebrating its demise, you'd be bemoaning it.

[William of Walworth]

It isn't.

A sad day for London?

Piss off.

This false sentimentality is bollox!

:)

I rest my case. You clearly don't give a shit about the real debate (otherwise you'd have made some actual points :rolleyes: ), you're just here to insult others. Nice friendly bloke aren't you.

[William of Walworth]

Building the “Son of Routemaster”: Some Real Alternatives Which
Transport for London Passed Up by Andrew Morgan
(http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/uploads/media/RoutemasterBook.pdf)
page 36 et seq.

There you go.

Why do we informed amateurs always seem better able to retrieve information than posters with paid jobs in "infomation science" ;)

I work in a very traditional institution ;) in which computing does a fair bit of work for some purposes, but not others ;)

And cos I was in a hurry, only had time to do a simple Google, ...

Will read it later when I can ...

[William of Walworth]

I'm not sure what a modern bus does but when we looked up the fuel consumption of a routemaster on the farewell party it turned out they only did 8 miles to the gallon.

So about £5 of petrol alone to do 8 miles - which on average they'll carry 30 passengers...

Suggest you check the fuel consumption levels of the bendies ;)

To be fair, and to respond to beeboo's post earlier, the 159 will not be replaced by a bendy but by a normal (new) double decker -- not sure what the fuel consumption of those is.

I did read somewhere that there will be no more new bendies introduced, is this true?? :confused:

[memespring]

For anyone with magic telley it's Routmaster night on BBC Four.

[Red Faction]

im sad to see them go :(
but as long as they're replaced with big red double deckers then i wont be too upset
what RETARD came up with the idea of bendy buses?! :mad:

having to wait for hours on whitechapel high street only to have to squeeze in because the bus is completely packed with people 90% havent even paid for it :rolleyes: :mad:

[William of Walworth]

Wish I'd known about this!!!

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/images/routemaster01.jpg

:cool:

[William of Walworth]

For anyone with magic telley it's Routmaster night on BBC Four.


Just watched that programme with conductors reminiscing !

:( :cool:

[memespring]

Just a thought, but I wonder if someone brought an old Routey and ran it on the 159 route could it break even/make a profit?

[Bob]

Just a thought, but I wonder if someone brought an old Routey and ran it on the 159 route could it break even/make a profit?

It would be illegal - most buses are run by private companies and bid in London for the subsidies to run a route - but to be allowed to do that they have to fulfill various requirements. :(

I blame the GLA for not allowing a free market in bus routes. ;)

[memespring]

It would be illegal - most buses are run by private companies and bid in London for the subsidies to run a route - but to be allowed to do that they have to fulfill various requirements. :(


There must be a way round it. You could run it a as mobile private memebrs club, like a speak easy for bus nerds.

[BarryB]

Not if you like seats, another thing you need plenty of if you're trying to sell public transport to the public.

The current bus ticketing system isn't practical. Even the Mayor admitted they were 'duff' yet millions has been wasted implementing this. The saver tickets are the sensible measure if you are to pay before the journey.

And tell me how increaed passengers on bus services means somebody is doing something right when there is no clear evidence as to the motivation of people choosing to use buses now. Thanks to the Congestion Charge, many people could now be using the bus because they have been forced to or using the hundreds of bendy buses instead of the Tube because they can jib their fare more often than not. The official figures are 7% - I presume this is people caught. I'd love to know the percentage that get away with it if this is so.

This whole thing just shows bad management. The 38 and 73 are 2 of the busiest routes in London where many people commute into the West End from Islington, Stoke Newington, Dalston and Hackney because there is no train alternative. The running time is about 45 minutes to an hour. In the rush hour most of these buses are packed out from early in the route so not only do you have to queue to buy a ticket whilst people fumble for the right money, you then have the privilige of being squashed onto buses for up to an hour where the running time is no doubt slower then the Routemaster thanks to the turning on narrow streets. There have been various reports on lots of 38s having been turned around short of Victoria due to slow running. I'd put my mortgage on the Customer Satisfaction surveys being poor so the consequence of getting rid of the conductors is that the service has got worse for everyone.

As for duplication - I don't have the figures but I would estimate most bus journeys in London are for distances of three miles or less as for any longer distance journeys, the tube or overground does it quicker. Off the top of my head you have

59/159 from Lambeth North down to Streatham Hill
68/468 from Norwood to the Elephant & castle
5/87 along the Longbridge Road (87 is going next year though so obviously someone spotted that one)
14/414 from Hyde Park Corner to Putney
139/189 from Oxford Street to west hampstead
25/86 between Stratford and Ilford
19/22 from Slloane Square to Piccadilly Circus
48/55 from Shoreditch to Walthamstow
10/390 from Marble Arch to Kings Cross
36/436 from paddington to New Cross
53/453 from Whitehall to Deptford

As most of these routes are frequent, if you introduce through tickets, you could increase the frequency on one of most of the above and withdraw the other. The net result would be less buses on the roads, less mileage, less dead running to depots but not reduced frequencies on services.

Well its a good thing that rather vthan paying the congestion charge people are using buses.

Regarding duplication of services I havent the time to look all of them up but here are a few examples

48/55
48 goes from Wathamstow to London Bridge
55 Leyton to Oxford Circus

5/87
5 Becontree Heath to Canning Town
87 Barking-Romford

19/22
19 Finsbury Park to Battersea Bridge
22 Putney Common-Piccadilly Circus

10/390
10 Hammersmith to Kings Cross
390 Archway-Notting Hill Gate

Surely this shows that whilst there may be duplication along these routes they start and end at different places. They are not dead-running. And you need duplication of bus routes precisely because in the shared areas buses are used so well.

Bus services are by no means perfect but if your measures were put into force it would lead (as you yourself admit) to less buses. For instance if you increase the frequency of the 55 service and withdraw the 48 service you are going to mean you cant travel direct by bus from Walthamstow, Leyton and Clapton to Liverpool Street and London Bridge. If Ken Livingstone advocated this I can assure you it would be a very unpopular measure.

BarryB

[BarryB]

A poll I saw on a news programme a short while ago showed the big majority of Londoners didn't want to see them go.

Yes there is the issue of disable access but there is also the issue of conductors making them better for the elderly, women at night, blind people etc And the Q-Master could have solved the disabled issue in the long run. You can't just dismiss the love of these buses that most Londoners have, even if it is misty eyed to you.

But this goes hand in hand with a demise in services for working class people in the past 20 years. When I was a kid about 20 years back you had conductors on all the buses, guards on trains and on the stations, caretakers (both on estates and in schools), park keepers etc etc now you have none of those and it harms communities in a big way IMO. On top of that you didn't have to pay for prescriptions, dental care, eye tests....

And now they're saying the pension ages is gonna go up to 69......a lot of things have definately got worse for the working class in the last 20 years......

Yes...but you have a much increased bus and tube service. For instance night buses were really mean for night workers. But now of course night buses are more used for leisure journeys and they are running round London in increasing numbers.

Concerning the tube and railways you now have the Jubilee Line in operation, the East London Line underway and of course the DLR. Only a week ago the DLR was extended to London City Airport. In parts of east and north London from tomorrow off peak and Sunday services rail services are being doubled. So not everything is doom and gloom compared with 20 years ago.

However I agree that each railway station should be staffed.

BarryB

[Harold Hill]

Well its a good thing that rather vthan paying the congestion charge people are using buses.

Regarding duplication of services I havent the time to look all of them up but here are a few examples

48/55
48 goes from Wathamstow to London Bridge
55 Leyton to Oxford Circus

5/87
5 Becontree Heath to Canning Town
87 Barking-Romford

19/22
19 Finsbury Park to Battersea Bridge
22 Putney Common-Piccadilly Circus

10/390
10 Hammersmith to Kings Cross
390 Archway-Notting Hill Gate

Surely this shows that whilst there may be duplication along these routes they start and end at different places. They are not dead-running. And you need duplication of bus routes precisely because in the shared areas buses are used so well.

Bus services are by no means perfect but if your measures were put into force it would lead (as you yourself admit) to less buses. For instance if you increase the frequency of the 55 service and withdraw the 48 service you are going to mean you cant travel direct by bus from Walthamstow, Leyton and Clapton to Liverpool Street and London Bridge. If Ken Livingstone advocated this I can assure you it would be a very unpopular measure.

BarryB

You can get to Liverpool Street from Clapton on a 242 or on the One train. ;) If you live in Leyton or Walthamstow and want to go to the City you have trains into Liverpool Street and the Central Line. Because of this, I would be surprised if anybody on a 48 from Walthamstow or Leyton goes any further than Hackney - although unless we see the stats we'll never know. But if a few people did, if there were through tickets where they could easily transfer to other services, with less buses on the road their journey might be quicker.

Point I was making is that I see no sense in something like thr 5/87 where the 5 terminates at Becontree Heath (which is a bus station in the middle of nowhere) when it could run on to Romford in 10 minutes, and be more ecomical by picking up the shoppers/workers for Romford the 87 currently does - instead it runs virtually empty along parts of the Longbridge Road. same with the 36 to Lewisham over the 436.

More buses equals better isn't necessarily true I think. If hundreds and hundreds of buses are running virtually empty everyday in Zone 1 with less cars on the road thanks to the CC, I don't think people are doing their jobs properly.

[BarryB]

You can get to Liverpool Street from Clapton on a 242 or on the One train. ;) If you live in Leyton or Walthamstow and want to go to the City you have trains into Liverpool Street and the Central Line. Because of this, I would be surprised if anybody on a 48 from Walthamstow or Leyton goes any further than Hackney - although unless we see the stats we'll never know. But if a few people did, if there were through tickets where they could easily transfer to other services, with less buses on the road their journey might be quicker.

Point I was making is that I see no sense in something like thr 5/87 where the 5 terminates at Becontree Heath (which is a bus station in the middle of nowhere) when it could run on to Romford in 10 minutes, and be more ecomical by picking up the shoppers/workers for Romford the 87 currently does - instead it runs virtually empty along parts of the Longbridge Road. same with the 36 to Lewisham over the 436.

More buses equals better isn't necessarily true I think. If hundreds and hundreds of buses are running virtually empty everyday in Zone 1 with less cars on the road thanks to the CC, I don't think people ar
e doing their jobs properly.

242 certainly dosent go to my part of Clapton. I would have to get another bus just to get the 242. Im sure people do go direct from Walthamstow to Liverpool Street etc. Why should they be forced to change buses especially when under your proposals there would be less buses on the road. By all means bus routes shouldent be set in concrete. For instance the 388 bus from Hackney Wick to the City seems to be under used. But instead of reducing the number of buses under used buses could be relocated to those routes which are under pressure of heavy use.

BarryB

[Maggot]

More buses equals better isn't necessarily true I think. If hundreds and hundreds of buses are running virtually empty everyday in Zone 1 with less cars on the road thanks to the CC, I don't think people are doing their jobs properly. But this isn't the case, buses in central London are largely quite busy.

[Harold Hill]

Im sure people do go direct from Walthamstow to Liverpool Street etc. Why should they be forced to change buses especially when under your proposals there would be less buses on the road. By all means bus routes shouldent be set in concrete. For instance the 388 bus from Hackney Wick to the City seems to be under used. But instead of reducing the number of buses under used buses could be relocated to those routes which are under pressure of heavy use.

BarryB

I'm sure people do too but I'd wager that as a percentage of total journeys on the 48 it doesn't justify 7/8 buses an hour making the same journey. I'm sure there are people in Chingford Hall that would commute to London by bus if they could but I doubt the numbers would justify a service.

FWIW, I'm not about cutting services to save money but where there's (I feel) wastage.

Maggot, I'd agree that is probably true in peak hours but the same frequencies are applied during the day. Go to Fleet St and look at the 4/5 routes that go to Waterloo and see how busy they are.

[BarryB]

I'm sure people do too but I'd wager that as a percentage of total journeys on the 48 it doesn't justify 7/8 buses an hour making the same journey. I'm sure there are people in Chingford Hall that would commute to London by bus if they could but I doubt the numbers would justify a service.

FWIW, I'm not about cutting services to save money but where there's (I feel) wastage.

Maggot, I'd agree that is probably true in peak hours but the same frequencies are applied during the day. Go to Fleet St and look at the 4/5 routes that go to Waterloo and see how busy they are.

I dont know the Chingford Hall area but from looking at a map of the area I cant see the comparison with the 48 service which at a guess serves a much more densely populated area.

And as you can see from my earlier remarks about the 388 rouute I to think there is scope for reducing or scrapping services but I would argue that there are other routes which could have extra buses on.

BarryB

[Orang Utan]

Clearly sad for some people, no?

You know, like the thousands of people who lined the streets and caused Oxford Street to grind to a halt as the last Routemaster went by?

Sad, sentimental fools the lot of them. Same with the Concorde lot. :p