View Full Version : Daily Mail and Lambeth crime figures...
Stobart Stopper
12-07-2002, 07:24
Here we go again, they just can't give up, can they? The headling this morning:
'Crime soars.....Muggings up 28 per cent and guess where it's worst.....drug-infested Lambeth.'
I can't imagine what it must be like to live in Lambeth and have this continuous battering by this newspaper. Ok, so the area has it's problems but Hackney isn't that far behind.
Oops I forgot, the Borough Commander of Hackney isn't gay is he? Now there's the difference.:mad:
William of Walworth
12-07-2002, 07:57
Has anyone thought how much healthier public and political life in this country would be if the Daily Mail didn't exist? :mad:
William of Walworth
12-07-2002, 07:58
If anyone can introduce me to one of their readers who isn't a small minded intolerant fuckwit, I'd be amazed ...
Dunno if you noticed the other headline on the Mail: MY MARIJUANA NIGHTMARE by some girl from streatham. Its reefer madness time again.
Stobart Stopper
12-07-2002, 08:33
That's not fair! I buy the Guardian and the DM. The Guardian because it appeals to my political beliefs. The reason I read the DM is so that I can keep updated on how the fuckwits' minds work.
You must never limit yourself to one newspaper, it's a dangerous practise.
Always keep an eye on the enemy.;)
LaraCroftbb,
"I can't imagine what it must be like to live in Lambeth and have this continuous battering by this newspaper."
Like you, I don't live in Lambeth. Unlike you, I doubt that people there are anything like as bothered by sensationalist newspapers as they are by the real crime problems of the area - including real battering.
"Hackney isn't that far behind."
I'm sure you're right. I lived there for many years and know that Hackney is a great place in some ways - but the level of crime there is frightening.
littlejon
12-07-2002, 12:55
a possible reason for the DM's ire; I was speaking to one of our friendly local travelcard sellers (who shall remain nameless) who claims a Mail journalist was charged £50 for an interview with a "top crack dealer" (needless to say just some chancer) then scammed of another £100 for oregano & wax. sometimes life is sweet...
William of Walworth
12-07-2002, 13:02
Lara
TOTALLY TOTALLY agree about knowing the enemy, why do you think I buy <spit> the Evening <another spit> SubStandard quite a lot, and pick up the DM (in sterilised gloves) when I can do so without paying? (And when my fury-at-fuckwittery levels is dropping dangerously low)
A former Lord Harmsworth said of his at-or-near-the-time Blackshirt paper "our readers need their dose of daily hate"
Well tough shit Lords Harmsworth and all DM editors past present and future, if I am able to hate anyone (and I try not to, but ... ) it's the peddlers of lies and propaganda and encouragers of ignorance and maliciousness that infest the Daily Sturmer, and those of your readers who mindlessly believe and regurgitate your UNADULTERATED SHITE.
That obviously, obviously excludes you Lara : if you get it for know the enemy reasons that makes you not a reader in the sense I meant, but an infiltrator :D
One FACT Lara will be able to confirm that the Daily Mail did not print : robbery-with-violence makes up less than 2% of all crime.
So to emphasise the 28% rise in such a PROPORTIONALLY limited form of crime in such screaming scare the Old Age Pensioners and get prejudiced frothfoamers reaching for their birch terms, is a
LIE!!
I stand by my point : The Daily Mail is a diseased scumbag of an organ and MOST of its readers are moronical fuckwits (or in a minority of cases** deluded innocents).
**including all elderly relatives of easily-offended Urban 75ers ... :D
Oh yes, and in any case, I don't just buy the Guardian I check Urban 75!!! :p
Occasionally papers lie. More often they get things partially wrong by accident. Very often papers report shocking things because many of us are keen to read them, so it sells papers.
People are generally more influenced by their own experiences and those of their friends and acquaintances than they are by newspapers.
It's no good blaming the media for the fear of crime. It is the shockingly high level of crime which causes the fear.
Stobart Stopper
12-07-2002, 13:29
let's see what other shite it has in it today.....page 3...The Gilded Lily's Ball, an article about the rich fuckwits having a shindig with Camilla.....
page 9, now this is REALLY newsworthy..Sophie the Bagwoman and the High Commissioner in Kenya.
Page 11....horror of horrors! They are building a bypass near Beckham's Alderney Edge mansion. It makes me weep.
Page 19 "I have not spoken to Barrymore for years" says Cheryl...like who gives a fuck?
And a double page spread this one: "What do men notice?"
another great Femail experiment. Honestly, this newspaper is obsessed with sex!
Page 31...Transsexual victory. The new laws for transsexual marriages. Their editor should be pleased.
Centre page: An in-depth article on the £50 million masterpiece.
50 million eh? Think how many starving little mouths that could feed.
Letter page: The main topic of discussion: Should TV presenters wear ties? Now that really is an important topic, don't you think?
So, there you have it, millions starving on the African continent and the good old DM comes up trumps yet again with it's inane crap and braindead journalism.
Ok, rant over, I am off to do school run now.;) ;)
Caspar Hauser
12-07-2002, 13:50
Ok, maybe I am a little daft but ...
From the Metropolitan Police Service Crime Statistics
Borough of Lambeth
June 2001
Robbery 523
Burglary 624
May 2002
Robbery 361
Burglary 545
Crime statistics (http://www.met.police.uk/crimestatistics/index.htm)
This is a 31% reduction in robberies during the time of the 'cannabis trial'.
white rabbit
12-07-2002, 13:59
Lies, damned lies & ...
William of Walworth
12-07-2002, 14:04
Unlike you, I doubt that people there are anything like as bothered by sensationalist newspapers as they are by the real crime problems of the area - including real battering.
The Government's fear of the Daily Mail (in large part empirically justified, because the Daily Mail can terrorise any elected Government, that is why they are so evil) and of its readers' electoral impact inhibits indeed directly stops any hope of crime and all other social problems being constructively addressed. You can rightly blame the Government for their pusillamity in this but I will always blame the malign impact of the Daily Mail and its ilk far more importantly.
People in Lambeth, if they are not pissed off by the Daily Mail, ADDING to the problem by so woefully mis"analysing" it!! :mad:
What do you think of the theory (probably reality) that fear of crime far exceeds the actuality, even in Lambeth, and that the Daily Mail deliberately stokes up these fears by demonising Lambeth? And fostering ignorance by blaming CANNABIS of all drugs for crime by treating it as if it is no different to crack?
I'm not too keen, JHE, on you implying (as you seem to do in effect if not in intention by dismissing the DM's importance) that because we hate the Daily Mail, that somehow implies we condone or minimise the impact of crime!! Rather it is them who exaggerate the level of crime (see my post above on how they sneationalise and massage the statistics), That's the sort of illogical, and in their case propagandistic, link that the Daily Mail themselves make.
The Daily Mail is part of the problem not part of the solution to crime.
If it wasn't for the DM, it would be politically possible to work out constructive and rational ways to reduce it without being howled down and demonised every time an idea comes up that is even slightly non punitive or even slightly cause-not-punishment orientated, or even slightly to the left of Genghiz Khan!
The Daily Mail PROMOTES crime in inner cities by supporting policies that protect their prosperous suburban readers' pockets by screaming hysterically at any suggestion of raising taxes and investing in those communities that really need it.
William of Walworth
12-07-2002, 14:12
It's no good blaming the media for the fear of crime. It is the shockingly high level of crime which causes the fear.
Well I've lived in the Walworth/Elephant area for ten years and I've never been a victim of crime except a very small one, once. I was lucky and I know (personally) how awful a serious crime is for those unlucky enough to suffer it, but hysteria of the Mail kind does not help and neither does denying that hysteria obfuscates rather than solves the problem.
Are you sure you're not subliminally influenced by media coverage, I don't say Daily Mail necessarily, rather than the reality??
I know there is bad crime in Brixton and that my area is somewhat safer, but to deny as you do that the media (particularly the DM) makes it worse than it really is, ignores the real cause of why any constructive solutions are stopped from getting the chance to be implemented.
What is your suggested solution or policy on crime JHE?
<prepares to test it for Daily Mailishness> :D :p
[NB that was a JOKE, I'm sure you like many people have ideas, but the less Daily Mail-like they are the less chance that they will ever get implemented].
agricola
12-07-2002, 14:13
i am sorry to say that the Daily Mail are using the figures from the 2001-2 reporting period when compared to 2000-1, in which case the rise is correct - of course they havent mentioned the massive rise in robberies due to the demands of "Operation Calm" and removal of officers from LX to Central London and the airports.
Of course, as Caspar has shown, the real trend is downwards, plus one should be see the amount of arrests during the experiment (more class "a" dealers arrested) in the light of reduced manpower, the above anti-terrorist message etc.
agricola
WofW said:
I'm not too keen, JHE, on you implying (as you seem to do in effect if not in intention by dismissing the DM's importance) that because we hate the Daily Mail, that somehow implies we condone or minimise the impact of crime!!I haven't implied that anyone here condones crime. I'm not too keen on your saying that I have.
You make some good points about the influence of the Tory press.
WofW,
"I've lived in the Walworth/Elephant area for ten years and I've never been a victim of crime except a very small one, once."
I'm glad. I lived for many years in various parts of London, mainly Hackney but also elsewhere. I was lucky too.
"Are you sure you're not subliminally influenced by media coverage, I don't say Daily Mail necessarily, rather than the reality?"
On crime and its extent, I'm mostly influenced by (i) what people I trust tell me has happened to them and (ii) browsing tables of crime figures when they're published in the Evening Standard. I don't read very much sensationalist coverage, though I come across it, of course.
"I know there is bad crime in Brixton and that my area is somewhat safer, but to deny as you do that the media (particularly the DM) makes it worse than it really is, ignores the real cause of why any constructive solutions are stopped from getting the chance to be implemented."
I haven't read the DM coverage. Perhaps I should. I stand by what I said about the cause of the fear of crime being the shockingly high crime rate.
I've an idea that Jock Young and the British Crime Survey people made an analysis of this in the Archway area years ago and that they came more or less to the conclusion that the higher a person's chance of being a victim of crime, the greater his/her fear of crime. That's not to say people's estimate of the risk is necessarily accurate, but that fear of crime is a function of crime.
"What is your suggested solution or policy on crime JHE?"
I wish I knew!
I certainly don't believe that the police can end crime. They are so inundated with reports of crime that often the most they can do is record it.
Top of my wish list would be a drastic reduction in poverty, illiteracy and inequality. But even if the government had much more egalitarian policies, that wouldn't guarantee greater social solidarity or a reduction in ruthlessness and thuggery.
JoeOrder
12-07-2002, 16:27
Hi,
Was just wondering when the last time you checked the Standard was.
Until fairly recently, it was under the editorial control of Max Hastings, who despite being a dyed-in-the-wool Tory, at least understood the importance of principled journalism to an extent. Under the new editor, the ES has (effectively) come under the wing of Paul Dacre and is operating in tandem with the Daily Mail, attempting to reinforce the DM's agenda (i.e. reinforcing the superiority of suburban NIMBYs by telling them how dreadful city life outside work is). I used to buy the ES on an almost daily basis. I can barely stand to do so now, as reading it just makes me angry. It is a sad state of affairs.
Crime (or theft at least) tends to arise from those who seek to improve their lot by forcibly taking from others that which they do not themselves possess. Sounds not unlike the behaviour of large corporations to me....
JO.
[Edited for spelin, puntulashun, and clarity ;) ]
JoeOrder,
I get the Evening Standard most Mondays for the job adverts and sometimes I get it on other days too. I'm not an avid reader of the ES - more a browser.
You and lots of people say it's got a lot worse since Hastings left the editorship. I believe you.
It's been pretty bad in its treatment of leftists and TU activists for as long as I can remember - shock-horror exposés of dubious reliability.
Peter Matisse
12-07-2002, 16:46
Pooka and I were at the last meeting of the Police Consultative Group and Brian Moore, the acting commander for Lambeth, presented the crime figures for the last 6 months.
There has been a consistent drop in street crime over that whole period. Caspar's post shows some of the figures.
He also was questioned by a gentleman, who I think was one of Kate Hoey's group, about children arriving at school 'stoned'.
Brian Moore told us that the Met were concerned about these rumours and had been in contact with the head teachers of all but two of the schools in the Borough. They all said there was no evidence that this was happening, in fact there had been a drop in children smoking regular cigarettes.
Brian Moore reported that car crime was up and acknowledged that they needed to do better in that area.
I know which figures I would trust.
I have lived here for close to 24 years and during that time I have been burgled twice and had my car broken into three times. I come and go at all times of the day and night, mostly on foot or public transport, and during that time I have only ever seen one bag snatch. No one has ever tried to rob me, or mug me, and I rarely do I feel uneasy on the streets of Lambeth.
I don't think I am by any means an exception, I wish the media would come and talk to people like me more often. My experience is just as valid, but of course does not fit the stereotype of Lambeth.
I am so glad they told me I live in a 'War Zone', otherwise I would have gone on thinking I lived in a Borough of friendly, hard working, law abiding, neighbourly people.
:)
kyser_soze
12-07-2002, 16:53
JO/JHE...pciked up a Standard for the first time in an age this week and was shocked at how right wing it's become. It always was aimed at the commuter/ABC1 mob, but at least you always got the feeling that it was batting for London; and wasn;t it under Hastings when it came out in favour of a fundamental debate on the drug laws? Last night's editorial was a billion miles away from that.
I had a little daydream that I bumped into Dacre on the Tube and after hurling much abuse at him I pulled out a big knife and stuck him one...to much applause from all around.
Peter Matisse
12-07-2002, 16:56
Something interesting I came across in, I think the Observer, recently.
The article I read was about HRH The Prince of Wales and his royal 'court' at Highrove.
The article alleged that among frequent visitors were Kate Hoey and Melanie Phillips of the DM, along with people like Stephen Fry, Peter Mandleson and other notables who's names I cannot remember.
No doubt HRH would have views on cannabis as a concerned parent.
Peter M, interesting posts. Thanks.
Let me ask you something about your experience of Lambeth. Do you live on a grim, crime-ridden estate or elsewhere in Lambeth, perhaps near such estates?
The reason I ask is that, thinking about my years in Hackney (another high-crime borough), it seemed to me that some people might miss a large part of the anti-social behaviour and utter horror of violent crime even if they lived quite near it.
kyser and Joe, after reading what you've said, I'm going to pay more attention to the ES, to see how bad it is. But I hope I don't end up having daydreams like yours, kyser!
Peter Matisse
13-07-2002, 08:07
JHE
The road in which I live runs between the Brixton Road and the Clapham Road. The road is mostly old three storey town houses built at he begining of the 20th century, now all converted to flats.
In the middle of these there is a four storey block of council flats and a library, built where houses were destroyed in the second world war.
It is a 12-15 minute walk from Brixton tube station up the Brixton road heading towards the Oval.
At the Brixton Road end of the street is a council development of three storey maisonettes and flats built around five years ago. At the Clapham Road end of the street, about a two minute walk down Fentiman Road, there is a council estate of 5 or 6 storey blocks built, I would guess around 1940/50.
The area is a mixture, there are council estates minutes away in all directions.
People have been, and still are, mugged and robbed in my street. I sometimes hear about them from my neighbours, but it is not a regular thing and sometimes those who do get mugged are visitors and not residents.
What I can say from my experience is that it has never happened to me in the time I have lived here. Nor has it happened to any of my neighbours some of whom have lived in the area longer than I have.
I was born on a council estate in North London and spent the first ten years of my life there. It was many years ago now and times were different, but the majority of people lived in council accomodation then. Generally there was not the same aspiration to be a home owner that there is today.
I object to the implication that people who live in council housing are by definition more likely not to be law abiding. That is just not true. Nor do I like the implication that a council estate always has more crime. and is therefore a more dangerous area to be in. Something else I do not believe to be true.
That is just perpetuating the false impression that Brixton has in the media. It has become a metaphor for lazy journalists to use when they want to invoke the idea of any inner city no go area.
I actually believe that the streets of London are safer now than at any time in our history. Unfortunately we also have a rabble rousing media who have copy to sell, so any old lies and false impressions will do.
PM,I object to the implication that people who live in council housing are by definition more likely not to be law abiding. That is just not true. Nor do I like the implication that a council estate always has more crime.I didn't imply either of these things. (And they are obviously false.) I don't know were you got the idea that I had. I asked you if you lived on a grim, crime-ridden estate. I expect you agree that some exist.I actually believe that the streets of London are safer now than at any time in our history.I don't. Are the streets safer than, for example, during your childhood in North London? There may have been times when there was even more crime in London. I don't know. Victorian London? What I do know is that crime is so rife that the young see robbery as routine - listen to teenagers on a bus chatting about 'jacking' or being 'jacked' - and most people expect to be burgled from time to time. Breaking into cars is so usual that on many streets there are fresh spillages of broken car window every morning. I could go on, but won't.
I'm glad that your time in Lambeth has not been too bad crime-wise and that you really like and appreciate where you live. I'm sure it is (in very large part) populated by "friendly, hard working, law abiding, neighbourly people." And I'm sorry that many such people have to put up with so much crime.
Re the CPCG meeting, Peter:
There were two people who raised the business about children truning up for school stoned. One was a local pastor (Ithink the guy who spoke at the Assembly Hall meeting re Paddick in March); one was a guy who runs a drugs agency - he was on Newsnight a few weeks back. Like yourself, Peter, I thought at first they were speaking against the trial.
But in fact, they were (in a somewhat obtuse way) speaking against it's critics. They both said that the prospect of children being so effected was terrible, and therefor anyone who had evidence of this should present it to the authorities. The drugs agency guy pointed out teachers duty of care, in this respect. In effect, they were saying to the scare mongers, "Put up, or shut up"
littlejon
13-07-2002, 15:01
I know thread's titled "Daily Mail...", but the DM-wards drift of the Standard truly is depressing. I remember Max Hastings in an interview specifically warning of subconscious stereotyping - giving as an example illustrating 'crime' stories with a photo of a young black man. Last week, under the headline "Londoners want crime reduced" (or somesuch), yes, it's a photo of a young black man being arrested...
I don't feel crime here is so very bad, and, yes, as a Brixton resident I feel very resentful of the scaremongering Daily Mail. Btw, I think car-crime in Brixton is fairly low for some reason.
William of Walworth
15-07-2002, 12:12
Anyone who had the misfortune to read Simon Heffer's column in the Saturday Wail, in which he said that as cannabis was now legal (!), why don't we go the whole hog and legalise mugging, may understand why I have to be given the tranquilisers every time I pick up that shite-awful lying scum sheet of a rag.
Today I notice the Mail has a shcok-horror front page headline 'Cannabis : the shocking truth" (or similar) intended I think as a trailer for (no doubt) a several-page ultra-prurient "all cannabis smokers are potential CRACK ADDICTS and all our FAMILY VALUES and CHILDREN are in terrible danger from the SALE OF RIZLA PAPERS" 100% of crack addicts and heroin addicts and EVIL: PEOPLE have smoked cannabis you know, and our readers are too THICK AS PIGSHIT to be acquainted with logic-flaws and to realise that statistics read in different directions read completely differently! :mad:
I didn't look further to protect my blood pressure .... Lara can you report though?
And as others are saying, the Standard is rapidly heading in the same direction.
Peter Matisse
15-07-2002, 21:06
JHE
I meant to come back to you sooner.
My clumsy wording is at fault again, I did not mean to infer that you held those views about council estates. I intended to make a general observation but I did not make that clear. Please accept my apologies.
I do think the streets are safer and here is why.
I think if you look at the size of London today, and compare it say with the size of London in Victorian times, then look at the amount of crime in both eras, you might find that proportionally there was more crime then, than there is now, given the present size of London. I have not researched it so I may be wrong.
Again from my experience, I have been in my job for over 20 years, during that time there have been an average of 150 people working at my firm at any one time.
Over that time I only know of two people who have been the victims of street crime. One was many years ago when of our Partners was mugged outside the Dorchester Hotel as he was leaving after an evening function. The other was a couple of years ago when one of Technologists was held up at gunpoint and robbed on the train in Surrey on his way home.
Like most firms when people are away sick they have to fill in a form. I am the Personnel Manager so I get to see all of these forms so if someone has been attacked I would know.
I read somewhere that public transport carries the equivalent of the population of New Zealand in and out of the London every day. Many people in my firm live in London in all different parts of the city. If crime really was at the levels that the media would have us believe, then you would expect me to have come across more examples of it in my work.
Yes there are dangerous areas in London, as there are in any other major city no matter where it is in the world, but in my own experience I see no evidence of crime on the scale we are led to believe exists.
I think we have been conditioned to be afraid whilst out on the street and I don't think we need be, careful yes, but not afraid.:)
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