Subterranean Rivers

[Major Tom]

I'm just starting to research locations of South London's lost rivers. I pretty much have the Effra covered, but can anyone steer me towards information about other rivers that used to flow above ground?

[Belushi]

There was a River Peck in Peckham and the Quaggy in the Lewisham area.

[guinnessdrinker]

I believe there may be a river rother (rotherhithe) and there is one in Wandsworth. the last bit isn't covered.

[jonH]

the beck and the wandle

[Major Tom]

and there is one in Wandsworth. the last bit isn't covered.

that'll be the Wandle. I used to live near it. Know it well.

[Major Tom]

the beck

where's that then?

[Poi E]

the Quaggy in the Lewisham area.

Is that the one that becomes the River Ravensbourne/Deptford Creek? I'm sure lang rabbie will be by in a moment.

[Belushi]

Is that the one that becomes the River Ravensbourne/Deptford Creek? I'm sure lang rabbie will be by in a moment.

I think so but couldnt swear to it!

[Major Tom]

I think it joins up with the Ravensbourne at Lewisham

[jonH]

where's that then?
beckenham catford? way

[Major Tom]

Is there one that goes through Bromley South?

[lang rabbie]

previous London's Underground Rivers thread (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=44344&highlight=rivers)

Lost Rivers of London by Nicholas Barton is the standard book - should still be a copy at most London public libraries

There's a "humorous" book of walking the routes of the buried rivers:
The Groundwater Diaries (http://THEGROUNDWATERDIARIES.COM) by Tim Bradford - it came out in paperback in March this year.

The book covers the great themes of existence - punk, football, feminism, beer, nurses, politics, free jazz, jellied eels, Dickens, offal, capitalism, sex and death.

I thought it was crap, but others may beg to differ. However there are some useful links (http://thesmoke.net/gd/gdriverlinks.html) from his site.

[Major Tom]

Annoyingly - most of those links don't work :mad:

thanks for the info LR - I'll check that Barton book out at the local library.

[lang rabbie]

Is that the one that becomes the River Ravensbourne/Deptford Creek? I'm sure lang rabbie will be by in a moment.

IIRC The Quaggy is a tributary of the Ravensbourne - they meet somewhere just south of Lewisham station

Edited to add

Wikipedia entry on River Ravensbourne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Ravensbourne)
Quaggy Waterways Action Group (http://www.qwag.org.uk/home/)

[Major Tom]

These things are placed in various parts of South London, and as far as I can tell seem to mark the passage of a subterranean river. Any idea what function they serve?

This one here is right above the Quaggy just up the road from Lewisham town centre.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/8019/1457/400/DSCF1763.jpg

[Louloubelle]

http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/FA50B45E-F0D1-47F8-B171-A663D20CA5FB/0/fleet_river.jpg

entrance to the fleet river -School of Samuel Scott -Oil on canvas Date unknown

http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/leisure_heritage/libraries_archives_museums_galleries/guildhall_art_gallery/collection/fleet_river.htm


History of the Fleet River
http://www.dadblog.co.uk/archives/2004/01/a_history_of_th.html

Lost rivers of London
http://barryoneoff.co.uk/html/lost_rivers.html

[Tricky Skills]

A wonderful month of blogging all about the River Fleet by Diamond Geezer can be found HERE (http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2005_08_01_diamondgeezer_archive.html#112538535026803370).

[Major Tom]

Ta for all the info about The Fleet and that, however, information regarding South London's rivers seems to be much less easy to find.

[poster342002]

If you walk on the northbound-side of Vauxhall Bridge, when you reach the northen end of it you will see to your left (if the tide is out) a stream of water gushing out of the wall onto the river-bed below. This is the outlet for some underground river or other - but I don't know which, I'm afraid.

[BadlyDrawnGirl]

It's all a bit of a tragedy really. If anywhere's in desperate need of a few rivers it's the vast concrete sprawl of SE London. :(

[Major Tom]

I was pleased to see the Quaggy returning to life in Kidbrook - may be this is to be the first of many.

[BadlyDrawnGirl]

I was pleased to see the Quaggy returning to life in Kidbrook - may be this is to be the first of many.In Kidbrooke? Have they restored it? :confused: :cool:

[lang rabbie]

If you walk on the northbound-side of Vauxhall Bridge, when you reach the northen end of it you will see to your left (if the tide is out) a stream of water gushing out of the wall onto the river-bed below. This is the outlet for some underground river or other - but I don't know which, I'm afraid.

These are the waters of that sacred stream known as the River Effra

[Major Tom]

In Kidbrooke? Have they restored it? :confused: :cool:

http://www.qwag.org.uk/home/

yep :)

[PacificOcean]

Sorry, I know this isn't south London but I was facinated to find (as I use the station everyday) that the huge pipe running over the platforms at Sloane Square station is a underground tributary of the Thames (can't remember what it's called though) which they had to route through the pipe when building the station as it's a "cut and cover" build.

There is nothing at Sloane Square about it. You think for something so interesting right above your head, they might have put up a little plaque or sign or something, but no.

[sufilala]

http://www.sub-urban.com/fleettwo.htm

brilliant account of gonzo spelunking up fleet river :D

[Major Tom]

Sorry, I know this isn't south London but I was facinated to find (as I use the station everyday) that the huge pipe running over the platforms at Sloane Square station is a underground tributary of the Thames (can't remember what it's called though) which they had to route through the pipe when building the station as it's a "cut and cover" build.

There is nothing at Sloane Square about it. You think for something so interesting right above your head, they might have put up a little plaque or sign or something, but no.

The River Westbourne I believe

[Bob]

The Quaggy's in pretty good shape. A mate of mine had it going behind his house in Lewisham - effectively providing moat between his back garden and the local park. :D

[poster342002]

These are the waters of that sacred stream known as the River Effra
I thought the River Effra went from south London and out into the Thames' south bank? The one I mean exits onto the north bank just next to the northern end of Vauxhall Bridge - which means it must run through north London? :confused:

[sufilala]

I thought the River Effra went from south London and out into the Thames' south bank? The one I mean exits onto the north bank just next to the northern end of Vauxhall Bridge - which means it must run through north London? aye i was gonna say...
http://brikistan.org/Image034.jpg
http://brikistan.org/Image035.jpg
coupla snaps of where the river effra comes out into father thames... on the south bank right under MI6 building :eek:

[lang rabbie]

I thought the River Effra went from south London and out into the Thames' south bank? The one I mean exits onto the north bank just next to the northern end of Vauxhall Bridge - which means it must run through north London? :confused:

Sorry, all those references to northbound confused me.

The one on the north bank is the Tyburn stream (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Tyburn) somtimes known as the River Tyburn.

The mouth of the Effra used to be under what is now the St George's Wharf development, hence that site was referred to as the Effra site during the thirty years that it remained undeveloped. I think that there is still a small outlet somewhere in the river wall.

IIRC The larger outlet with the new nameplate for the river Effra in front of the Security Service (MI5) is actually the more recent Effra storm relief channel.

[lang rabbie]

There is nothing at Sloane Square about it. You think for something so interesting right above your head, they might have put up a little plaque or sign or something, but no.

What, something like "Insert explosive device here to flood most of the District Line" :rolleyes:

Actually AFAIK it is only "full" of water about half a dozen time a year after torrential downpours.

[poster342002]

Sorry, all those references to northbound confused me.

The one on the north bank is the Tyburn stream (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Tyburn) somtimes known as the River Tyburn.

Thanks for that! I often wondered about it. I think quite a few people mistakenly get this confused with the effra, oddly enough.

[PacificOcean]

What, something like "Insert explosive device here to flood most of the District Line" :rolleyes:



They don't need too. The District line floods at the merest hint of drizzle, as I am fully aware being a daily user. :)

[lang rabbie]

These are the waters of that sacred stream known as the River Effra

I was only half kidding - this was an ancient place of sacrifice. I've only just realised from Google that Gods of the River and Bridge (http://www.urban75.org/london/river-gods.html) is included in the magazine section of U75. :o

In 1998 the Thames Archaeological survey found the remains of a huge oak bridge built 3500 years ago not far from the present Vauxhall Bridge. The confluence of three rivers, where the Tyburn enters the Thames from the north and the Effra from the south, and the tidal turning point would have made this a sacred site for Bronze Age tribes.

Around the bridge were votive offerings of valuable goods to appease the spirits of the river. The Celts regarded rivers as bestowers of life, health, and plenty, and offered them rich gifts and sacrifices often at the same spots used by pre-Celtic British tribes.

It's an article to complement Chris Roberts' * new book on London Bridges Cross River Traffic (http://www.fandmpublications.co.uk/pages/crt1.htm) which, counter-intuitively for many people, starts with Vauxhall Bridge as probably the oldest crossing-place.

(*friend of Maggot who "led" a walk of Urbanite rabble around the city bridges this summer)

[lizzieloo]

I have a cool book called London under London, by Richard Trench and Ellis Hillman

One of the most popular books on London (it has reprinted six times since it was first published in 1984) London under London has now been updated to take into account the latest subterranean developments. Drawing extensively from the literature and visual archives of the underworld, London under London traces the history of the tunnellers and borers who have pierced the ground beneath the city for close on two thousand years. The authors trace the routes taken by man and nature, and enable us to follow them from the comfort of our armchairs. They can also tell us, gazetteer-style, exactly where we can get below and see the strange world which they depict, whom to ask for permission, and which of the public service authorities organizes trips underground

not just about subterranean rivers but they are in there.

[Major Tom]

They don't need too. The District line floods at the merest hint of drizzle, as I am fully aware being a daily user. :)

When I started work with the Underground one of my first chances to earn overtime came when sewage leaked onto the Circle and District Line. I was aprt of the team that had to get the signals working again - all that wet stuff had fucked up the elecrical circuits.

I didn't go down there until most of it had been cleared, but even then it smelt quite pooey.

[Major Tom]

all this talk of subterranean london - has anyone heard of the moleman of hackney? He's a bloke who has been digging holes under his house in Hackney for decades. I've got a feeling he's been locked up now.

[PacificOcean]

all this talk of subterranean london - has anyone heard of the moleman of hackney? He's a bloke who has been digging holes under his house in Hackney for decades. I've got a feeling he's been locked up now.

Why? (Why did he dig holes, not why has he been locked up)

and ewww to your District line story. Some stations do have a whiff about them. There always seems to be a slight pong at my local station (Aldgate East)

[BadlyDrawnGirl]

When I started work with the Underground one of my first chances to earn overtime came when sewage leaked onto the Circle and District Line. I was aprt of the team that had to get the signals working again - all that wet stuff had fucked up the elecrical circuits.

I didn't go down there until most of it had been cleared, but even then it smelt quite pooey.
http://pcfstudios.com/images/tools/disgust.jpg

[Major Tom]

Why? (Why did he dig holes, not why has he been locked up)

i wish i knew - it was only a short piece in the Fortean Times, with absolutely no detail.

and ewww to your District line story. Some stations do have a whiff about them. There always seems to be a slight pong at my local station (Aldgate East)

I think Waterloo is the stinkiest station. The smell comes form dead animals rats, mice, pigeons) rotting in sections of the station that are no longer accessible - so i have been told.

[lang rabbie]

I think Waterloo is the stinkiest station. The smell comes form dead animals rats, mice, pigeons) rotting in sections of the station that are no longer accessible - so i have been told.

How would a pigeon get to the lowest reaches of the Bakerloo line platorms - which is where the smell seems to be at its worst :eek:

[Major Tom]

How would a pigeon get to the lowest reaches of the Bakerloo line platorms - which is where the smell seems to be at its worst :eek:

I should have put a question mark after pigeon. I'd guess that they can get down there. However, like you I doubt that there'd be many. But definitely rats and mice I would have thought. And their poo.

[dgeezer]

previous London's Underground Rivers thread (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=44344&highlight=rivers)

Lost Rivers of London by Nicholas Barton is the standard book - should still be a copy at most London public libraries

It's a fine book, but it only devotes one chapter to the lost rivers of south London. These are, apparently, "less interesting, less historically important and much less well documented than those of the north" because of the "marshy conditions which for long prevailed over much of the area".

There are still 9 pages on the Effra, the Falcon Brook, the Earl's Sluice and the Neckinger - and a nice pull out map at the back - but probably not worth the £17 investment.

You can get a good idea of the map from here for free anyway: http://www.platformlondon.org/images/rivermap.pdf

[BrixiSteve]

[QUOTE=lang rabbie]What, something like "Insert explosive device here to flood most of the District Line" :rolleyes:

This happened during WWII, a bomb hit the station and ruptured the aquaduct and flooded the station and/or line. I think nearly 200 people were killed.....!?!

[lang rabbie]

What, something like "Insert explosive device here to flood most of the District Line" :rolleyes:

This happened during WWII, a bomb hit the station and ruptured the aquaduct and flooded the station and/or line. I think nearly 200 people were killed.....!?!

:confused: I thought although that bomb destoyed the station at ground level, it didn't actually lead to mass fatalities.

"Sloane Square" [Circle/District, sub-surface]
Direct hit 10pm 12/11/40 demolished a previous reconstruction only completed 27/03/40. Large concrete fragment landed on roof of one car of departing train, injuring 79. Rebuilt post-War. {R15/R06}
http://www.625.org.uk/tuawtemp/tuaw.htm

[Mrs Magpie]

My best mate at school's Gran died in that incident, so people did die.

Was it bombed more than once?

[boohoo]

all this talk of subterranean london - has anyone heard of the moleman of hackney? He's a bloke who has been digging holes under his house in Hackney for decades. I've got a feeling he's been locked up now.

I heard about this in local paper. Here's a link I just found. It is an amazing looking building also featured on derelict London website.

http://tunneling.irational.org/united_kingdom/london/hackney_moleman/

But the nuttiest tunnel builder has to be the Mole of Edge Hill in Liverpool. No-one know why he did it.

http://www.williamsontunnels.com/