Forward Wales in crisis

[niclas]

Judging from this report on seren.blogspirit.com, Forward Wales is in meltdown...


Forward Wales heads for oblivion
Forward Wales continues to implode after losing many of its leading activists including its sole councillor Dave Bithell, the National Secretary and International Organiser. Now the trade union organiser has quit.

The party's website has been "under construction" for the past four months - i.e. since the website organiser resigned - and members have just received their first written communication since the elections. It includes the minutes of the June 19 National Committee, which decided to change the name of the party from "Forward Wales, the Welsh Socialist Party" back to "Forward Wales". Dropping the socialist tag is a deliberate attempt to distance itself from the Scottish Socialist Party.

Not only is such a move against the party's rules - changes to the constitution can only be made at annual conference - but it took place without any prior consultation with the membership, who had no knowledge that such a step was even being considered.

Those who quit are citing disagreements with the political direction of the party - specifically a secret deal party leader John Marek struck with the Tories to stand a spoiling candidate in marginal Cardiff North at the recent General Election - as well as the lack of internal democracy in the party.

They are also disillusioned with Marek's performance in the Assembly, where he has put more emphasis on his role as deputy speaker than campaigning for his new party and winning affiliation from unions such as the RMT.

More locally, there has also been dissatisfaction with Marek's handling of the crisis surrounding the planned redevelopment of Wrexham Football Club's stadium, in which he has openly aligned himself with disgraced former chairman Mark Guterman who is hated by fans.

The activists who have left are re-grouping locally in the Wrexham Socialist Forum and include a quarter of the party's candidates in last year's council elections.

Fewer than 100 members remain in the party throughout Wales and the number of activists has dwindled dramatically.

One of the party's founder members told SEReN: "Forward Wales was born from an alliance of former Labourites and socialists who were united in wanting to challenge Labour's unhealthy grip on Welsh politics. Differences over the national question were fudged - a fatal mistake with hindsight - but it also emerged that revenge and spite was a more powerful driving force for some of the ex-Labourites than any real desire to build a radical political alternative for Wales."

Forward Wales, which was almost exclusively concentrated in Wrexham and Clwyd South, managed impressive results in those areas in the council elections - standing candidates in more than half the borough's seats and gaining 23% of the vote. It also played a prominent role in campaigning against the sale of school playing fields and housing stock transfer, which Wrexham tenants rejected decisively.

The ex-member said: "The party was a very real threat to Labour in the north-east and had the potential to win over disillusioned left-wingers throughout Wales. But the party's dependence for its finances on John Marek meant it was vulnerable to an undemocratic clique surrounding him. This led to decisions on candidates being pushed through with no real debate or discussion - what Marek wanted, he got.

"There's no doubt Marek was very generous with his money - he stumped up many thousands personally to pay for the Assembly and the Westminster elections. But he failed to realise that real political change is based on building parties between elections - there was never any money forthcoming for that. The national secretary couldn't even get stamps to mail out to members at times!"

A picture emerges of key members quitting and many more peripheral members drifting away disillusioned with the party's failure to build on its early promise.

It's possible FW will limp on to the 2007 Assembly elections, partly because Marek can afford to fund another set of candidates and partly because Ron Davies wants a last crack at returning to political power. But a party that can't even stick to its own rules and keeps its few remaining members in the dark over key decisions does not have a credible future.

Attempting to build a party round a rebel ex-Labour politician ultimately proved to be a quick-fix solution that came unstuck. Respect should take note.

[LilMissHissyFit]

Good stuff

[lewislewis]

haha, i remember that guy saying to me how great Forward Wales were going to become. Fun times.

[LilMissHissyFit]

same here. The sooner Ron davies buggers off into oblivion the better, hes like a local sleb here. The archbishop of canterbury visited caerfilthy last weekend and the local paper printed not one thing about it despite a bit marquee being erected and a video screen a whole days event, kids activities , a real party atmosphere AND the archbishop making key statements about recent events which could have been a total key article for the esteemed ;) Caerphilly Campaign :rolleyes: .
Why I hear you ask? Becuase Ron fucking badgerbothering davies crawled out and did 'something' mildly interesting( I use the term sparingly and sarcastically) and the local paper crawled dtraight back up his arse( I hope the apologised to the badgers for their interuption) :rolleyes:

[roger rosewall]

same here. The sooner Ron davies buggers off into oblivion the better, hes like a local sleb here. The archbishop of canterbury visited caerfilthy last weekend and the local paper printed not one thing about it despite a bit marquee being erected and a video screen a whole days event, kids activities , a real party atmosphere AND the archbishop making key statements about recent events which could have been a total key article for the esteemed ;) Caerphilly Campaign :rolleyes: .
Why I hear you ask? Becuase Ron fucking badgerbothering davies crawled out and did 'something' mildly interesting( I use the term sparingly and sarcastically) and the local paper crawled dtraight back up his arse( I hope the apologised to the badgers for their interuption) :rolleyes:

It's fair comment that Ron Davis is a past it asswipe but why should anybody give a toss about the Arch witchdoctor of Canterbury?

[LilMissHissyFit]

They should at least be given the opportunity to read about it in the local rag if they do give a toss though shouldnt they? You might not be religious or want to read about it but that shouldnt stop it being featured. Its not every day the archbishop of catherbury visits a small town, a huge video screen is erected, thousands turn up and listen to what he has to say.
Just becuase Ron does something pretty mediocre and un newsworthy he shouldnt take precedece over something that might deserve some coverage just becuase its ron and hes loved by the midguided idiots who live round here and the editor.Its a local paper which is supposed to feature local events, of which this was one
It was obviously important enough to the huge numbers of people who showed up on the day yet the local paper gave it no coverage becuase Ron called them to take photos of him doing something pathetic and unimportant

[Udo Erasmus]

Could the source of the split be over nationalism?

"Differences over the national question were fudged - a fatal mistake with hindsight - but it also emerged that revenge and spite was a more powerful driving force for some of the ex-Labourites than any real desire to build a radical political alternative for Wales."

I always found it strange that Ron Davies and John Marek who are hostile to nationalism set up a Wales-only organisation whose main activists seemed to be linked to Cymru Goch, a nationalist organisation who left the Welsh Socialist Alliance because it refused to make independence it's main focus prefering class-politics, bizarely they (cymru goch) accused the SWP of having an Englishman representing them at a debate on the national question between different groups in the WSA, bizare because Charlie Kimber of the SWP was the only Welsh speaker on the platform at the debate and has a past history of Welsh language activism.

[chilango]

Could the source of the split be over nationalism?

"Differences over the national question were fudged - a fatal mistake with hindsight - but it also emerged that revenge and spite was a more powerful driving force for some of the ex-Labourites than any real desire to build a radical political alternative for Wales."

I always found it strange that Ron Davies and John Marek who are hostile to nationalism set up a Wales-only organisation whose main activists seemed to be linked to Cymru Goch, a nationalist organisation who left the Welsh Socialist Alliance because it refused to make independence it's main focus prefering class-politics, bizarely they (cymru goch) accused the SWP of having an Englishman representing them at a debate on the national question between different groups in the WSA, bizare because Charlie Kimber of the SWP was the only Welsh speaker on the platform at the debate and has a past history of Welsh language activism.

So are CG going to go it alone again?

[roger rosewall]

They should at least be given the opportunity to read about it in the local rag if they do give a toss though shouldnt they?

Yeah sure whatever. Write a letter to the rag.

[roger rosewall]

Could the source of the split be over nationalism?

"Differences over the national question were fudged - a fatal mistake with hindsight - but it also emerged that revenge and spite was a more powerful driving force for some of the ex-Labourites than any real desire to build a radical political alternative for Wales."

I always found it strange that Ron Davies and John Marek who are hostile to nationalism set up a Wales-only organisation whose main activists seemed to be linked to Cymru Goch, a nationalist organisation who left the Welsh Socialist Alliance because it refused to make independence it's main focus prefering class-politics, bizarely they (cymru goch) accused the SWP of having an Englishman representing them at a debate on the national question between different groups in the WSA, bizare because Charlie Kimber of the SWP was the only Welsh speaker on the platform at the debate and has a past history of Welsh language activism.

To be fair to Cymru Goch, which I would rather not be, they are involved in various real life campaigns. They are an activist group and have the usual concerns that activists have.

John Marek on the other hand is an old fashioned placeman who has never been involved with any kind of campaigning or trade union activism in his life. All the poor old sod wanted was a bunch of canvassers to back him until his retiremnt on the generous pensions granted our elected representatives. On the other hand CG wanted a vehicle for their campaigning and left nationalist politics.

I doubt the collapse of Backward Wales was really over politics at all. Marek has precious few and Davies substitutes his ego for a program. The various parts simply fell apart because there is nothing to unite them. Both lack any serious social basis and as such simply float around on the margins doomed to obscurity.

PS What is Charlie Kimbers "past history of Welsh language activism"? Just curious.

[Karac]

I always found it strange that Ron Davies and John Marek who are hostile to nationalism set up a Wales-only organisation whose main activists seemed to be linked to Cymru Goch, a nationalist organisation who left the Welsh Socialist Alliance because it refused to make independence it's main focus prefering class-politics, bizarely they (cymru goch) accused the SWP of having an Englishman representing them at a debate on the national question between different groups in the WSA, bizare because Charlie Kimber of the SWP was the only Welsh speaker on the platform at the debate and has a past history of Welsh language activism.

Dont see why being "hostile to Nationalism" (though i think Ron Davies was more hostile to Tory rule of Wales) would rule out setting up a "Wales only organisation"

I dont know much about about Cymru Goch but i assume the attempt was to set up some sort of Welsh equivalent of the Scottish Socialist Party-something i would have supported if it got off the ground.

[chilango]

Dont see why being "hostile to Nationalism" (though i think Ron Davies was more hostile to Tory rule of Wales) would rule out setting up a "Wales only organisation"

I dont know much about about Cymru Goch but i assume the attempt was to set up some sort of Welsh equivalent of the Scottish Socialist Party-something i would have supported if it got off the ground.

hasn´t there been a couple of those? the WSA for example? and don´t they alwys split between left nationalists/republicans and the "Brit Left" who a) don´t take the national question in Wales seriously and b) whose local leadership is largely (though not exclusively) made up of English graduates from the University of Wales?

[Udo Erasmus]

I doubt the collapse of Backward Wales was really over politics at all. Marek has precious few and Davies substitutes his ego for a program. The various parts simply fell apart because there is nothing to unite them. Both lack any serious social basis and as such simply float around on the margins doomed to obscurity.

PS What is Charlie Kimbers "past history of Welsh language activism"? Just curious.

At an SWP day school in Cardiff on Welsh history, Charlie Kimber revealed that his first political activity was around agitating for Welsh language rights.

He was a member of Cymdeithas yr laith Gymraeg (the Welsh Language Society) and described going round defacing English road signs, occupying post offices and demanding leaflets be written in Welsh, but as he himself commented their was a bit of contradiction in the organisation - many of the activists described themselves as socialists, yet the president, Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and right winger.

[chilango]

He was a member of Cymdeithas yr laith Gymraeg (the Welsh Language Society) and described going round defacing English road signs, occupying post offices and demanding leaflets be written in Welsh, but as he himself commented their was a bit of contradiction in the organisation - many of the activists described themselves as socialists, yet the president, Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and right winger.


As someone else whose political debut was as amember of cymdeithas can I just be a bit peeved at the facile Saunders Lewis bit...have you read any of Cymdeithas´s maniffesto´s etc.? Where is the facsist influence? there ain´t any, so why bring it up?

[Karac]

hasn´t there been a couple of those? the WSA for example? and don´t they alwys split between left nationalists/republicans and the "Brit Left" who a) don´t take the national question in Wales seriously and b) whose local leadership is largely (though not exclusively) made up of English graduates from the University of Wales?
Probably true-the Swappies i knew in Cardiff and Swansea were all students or ex-students and exclusively English.

[Karac]

yet the president, Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and right winger.
Total crap of course.
There was a discussion a month or 2 about this issue here-http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=117160

[chilango]

Quick question:

How many Socialist Worker posters/placards have ever been printed in Welsh?

[LilMissHissyFit]

Yeah sure whatever. Write a letter to the rag.

Grow up

[osterberg]

Probably true-the Swappies i knew in Cardiff and Swansea were all students or ex-students and exclusively English. As an ex SWP member I unreservedly and humbly apologise for once being a student.However I am Scottish and free of English taint. ;)
Can you explain what's wrong with being a student and English?Oh and by the way I know loads of Welsh SWP members.

[osterberg]

Quick question:

How many Socialist Worker posters/placards have ever been printed in Welsh?
They have produced bilingual stuff for colleges with bilingual policies.
But anyway why bother?All Welsh speakers can read English anyway. ;)

[Ben Bore]

He was a member of Cymdeithas yr laith Gymraeg (the Welsh Language Society) and described going round defacing English road signs, occupying post offices and demanding leaflets be written in Welsh, but as he himself commented their was a bit of contradiction in the organisation - many of the activists described themselves as socialists, yet the president, Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and right winger.

Saunder Lewis was never a President or even a member of Cymdeithas yr Iaith.
It was his lecture 'Tynged yr iaith' (the fate of the language) that insprired the creation of Cymdeithas yr Iaith, mainly members of Plaid Cymru who were frustrated at the party's lack of action at safeguarding the language.
I think Saunders Lewis was critical of Cymdeithas yr Iaith, possibly because of their tactics (non-violent direct action), although this is a bit strange considering that he was a pacafist and also took part in the Penyberth bombing (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/wales/bombing_school.shtml).

Seems that this guy Charlie Kimber wasn't that well informed.

Also worth a read, a blog post by a Cardiff Labour member about How unpleasant was Saunders Lewis? (http://bratiaith.blogspot.com/2005/09/paucity-of-welsh-political-discourse.html)

[Gavin Bl]

They have produced bilingual stuff for colleges with bilingual policies.
But anyway why bother?All Welsh speakers can read English anyway.

They once did the opposite - and printed a load of stuff in Welsh to go to Newport, despite the town having some of the lowest levels of welsh speaking in the whole country. They were told by local members, but thought they knew better apparently.

I take it the latter point is ironic.

[Karac]

Can you explain what's wrong with being a student and English?.
Nothing at all-just making the observation that i personally have never met a Welsh SWPer-obviously there must be some -so it was a bit of broad overstatement-apologies :o
By the way -is Piers still involved in the Cardiff SWP?
;)

[Gavin Bl]

Nothing at all-just making the observation that i personally have never met a Welsh SWPer-obviously there must be some -so it was a bit of broad overstatement-apologies :o
By the way -is Piers still involved in the Cardiff SWP?
;)

I was a Welsh SWPer - but . . I . . was . . in . . England.

A few of them used to like telling me they could make anti-Welsh comments because I wasn't oppressed.

[osterberg]

I take it the latter point is ironic.
Er yes. No offence intended.Sorry.
Should have used one of these ;)

[Udo Erasmus]

Nothing at all-just making the observation that i personally have never met a Welsh SWPer-obviously there must be some -so it was a bit of broad overstatement-apologies :o


Firstly, it is well known that Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and was pretty reactionary and a rightwinger despite being artistically gifted.
If certain nationalists are in a state of denial about this, fair enough.

Actually the majority of SWP members in my branch are Welsh including the full-timer who was born and brought up in Cardiff, though they don't make a big deal about it - we are all internationalists not provincialists.

I have to say that when I joined the SWP, there were more people from Scottland who were in my branch than England.

Indeed, Karac must be living in England if he has never met a Welsh swp-er. Most of the leading members I know are Welsh and of the English ones, they may have been students, but donkey's years ago, and have lived in Wales for years.

You should maybe speak to one of the main candidates for leadership of the welsh-medium school Teachers' union who is a member of the SWP in Newport

Or maybe Karac's claim is something different.

I mentioned the irony of Cymru Goch accusing the SWP of having an Englishman speak at a debate (between CG, CPGB, SP and SWP) on the national question. The irony being that the SWP member in question was the only welsh speaker on the platform.

The reality is that Cymru Goch thought he was English, because they can't countenance the fact that somebody can be Welsh and reject their parochial nationalism - just as Karac thinks that the SWP in Wales are all English students because he can't handle the fact that some Welsh people might prefer working class politics to middle class nationalism.

It's quite odd, because the overwhelming majority of Welsh people also show little interest in nationalism. Where Plaid has had recent electoral success it has been by posing as a left-alternative to New Labour

I'm not even sure if "Wales" exists - South Wales is a completely different country with it's own distinctive culture and history to the West and North, but that's another debate

Face it comrades:

Nationalism is a middle class wet dream. Possibly enjoyable for you in a seedy kind of way, but little help in confronting the problems of the real world

[Karac]

Firstly, it is well known that Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and was pretty reactionary and a rightwinger despite being artistically gifted.
If certain nationalists are in a state of denial about this, fair enough.

Totally wrong and you know it.


Indeed, Karac must be living in England if he has never met a Welsh swp-er. Most of the leading members I know are Welsh and of the English ones, they may have been students, but donkey's years ago, and have lived in Wales for years.

Ok ,point taken, i didnt do a survey or anything-just my personal experience.
Probably from having to put up with an annoying posh prat called Piers from Cardiff SWP one time.




just as Karac thinks that the SWP in Wales are all English students because he can't handle the fact that some Welsh people might prefer working class politics to middle class nationalism.

Firstly its a very small "some" and its hardly working-class politics either.
Id say that Plaids manifesto was to the left of your current bandwagon Respect.

[/QUOTE]

I'm not even sure if "Wales" exists - South Wales is a completely different country with it's own distinctive culture and history to the West and North, but that's another debate

Ahh now were getting there!
In the days when even the Tory party has a seperate Welsh section now-the staunchly Anglicist SWP even refuse to recognise that Wales exists.


[/QUOTE]


Nationalism is a middle class wet dream. Possibly enjoyable for you in a seedy kind of way, but little help in confronting the problems of the real world
Plaid Cymru has probably got more working-class members in one branch than you have in Wales in total!
Your a shadow of the organisation you were 10 years ago in Cardiff-and you werent up to much then.
Real world!-what do you know about the real world?

[osterberg]

Ok ,point taken, i didnt do a survey or anything-just my personal experience.
Probably from having to put up with an annoying posh prat called Piers from Cardiff SWP one time.

I know the one of whom you speak and I share you're pain. :(

Udo has an irritating habit of winding people up on the question of nationalism.
I don't completely disagree with him but sometimes a little diplomacy and tact goes a long way.
I have absolutely no problem with the promotion of the Welsh language.People have the right to speak their own langauge.
Whether Saunders Lewis was a nazi or not is irrelevant to today's Welsh Nationalists who are clearly not nazis.
I'd be perfectly happy if the UK did break up.I'd have no problem with an independent Wales.
However I think that the main divisions in society are class not nationality.
As a fairly low paid worker living in Wales I've got a lot more in common with someone similar living in England than I do with the Welsh billionaire who owns the Celtic Manor hotel.
Also I don't think Wales can be said to be an oppressed nation.There a parts of England as poor as the poorest parts of Wales with the same problems.
As for Forward Wales I never thought they had much basis in reality to survive in the first place.
By the way how does Udo know Karac is a 'he'?Isn't such an assumption sexist? Not very right on. :(

[Gavin Bl]

Face it comrades:

Nationalism is a middle class wet dream. Possibly enjoyable for you in a seedy kind of way, but little help in confronting the problems of the real world

Its done a pretty good job of saving the Welsh language.

Most valleys people I know hold to old labour values, but there is always an element of welsh nationalism mixed in there. Where I grew up in Merthyr people are generally pretty class conscious at a broad level, but they also also see the exploitation of the region as something done to them by the English establishment - the Iron Masters and so on.

It used to irritate me when I was in the SWP that this element was consistently down played cos it didn't fit with the party line - which was its own type of seedy wet dream.

[jannerboyuk]

Also I don't think Wales can be said to be an oppressed nation.There a parts of England as poor as the poorest parts of Wales with the same problems.

Just a small point - is this really relevant? No doubt parts of the Empire had people less poor then the working class of Manchester in the 19th c but that doesn't mean that those suffering under the yoke of imperial rule were not oppressed or indeed members of an oppressed nation.

[niclas]

I always found it strange that Ron Davies and John Marek who are hostile to nationalism set up a Wales-only organisation whose main activists seemed to be linked to Cymru Goch, a nationalist organisation who left the Welsh Socialist Alliance because it refused to make independence it's main focus prefering class-politics, bizarely they (cymru goch) accused the SWP of having an Englishman representing them at a debate on the national question between different groups in the WSA, bizare because Charlie Kimber of the SWP was the only Welsh speaker on the platform at the debate and has a past history of Welsh language activism.

I doubt that CG accused Charlie Kimber of "being English". I wasn't at the particular meeting in question but surely you mean someone who may or may not be a CG member mentioned that Kimber was English - to my knowledge he's working as a journalist for Socialist Worker in London. Don't tar an entire organisation on that basis - it might come back to bite yer arse :)

Udo's attempts to paint CG as a nationalist organisation are predictable and a bit lame. While the SWP was dismissing the 1984-5 miners' support groups as "charity", CG (with other activists) was actively supporting miners in their communities. While the SWP was calling on trade unionists to pass motions denouncing the poll tax, CG (and other socialists, notably Militant) was organising in working-class communities to build a mass non-payment campaign.

CG's reasons for leaving the WSA were varied, as I recall. They were soon followed by the SP and within months the SWP had wound up the whole sorry show after ensuring that the alliance disintegrated into a very unhappy marriage. And when your partner gets abusive, you know it's time to walk out of the door - that's what CG and the SP did.

CG had many faults but it was consistently active in workers' struggles and sought to build unity at all times on the left. Bitter experience has demonstrated that building unity with organisations that take their orders from London is pointless.

I disagree with those who criticise the SWP for being mainly English ex-students. They also have some good Welsh working-class activists, e.g. in Neath, Blackwood and Cwmbran. But, when push came to shove, these comrades too opted for "internationalism" over "provincialism" (to quote Udo at his most revealing).

Forward Wales could have been a Welsh version of the SSP. It became Old Labour MkII. Despite that, it mobilised the successful campaign against stock transfer in Wrexham (and only last week the council admitted that tenants were still opposed as strongly as before), launched campaigns for free school meals and against the sell off of council housing, fought fascists trying to muscle in on the tail of the Caia Pk riots, won trade union affiliation from the RMT, initiated the anti-war campaign in Wrexham and came within 20 votes of winning 3 seats on Wrexham Council (only got one, but it only missed beating the council leader by 14 votes). Not a bad result in 18 months - I wonder if Respect can point to any similar successes?

Despite this, it failed. Socialists joined with their eyes opened and maybe should have seen it coming - but "better to have fought and lost than not have fought at all"... the experience gained will be put to good use.
:D

[osterberg]

Just a small point - is this really relevant? No doubt parts of the Empire had people less poor then the working class of Manchester in the 19th c but that doesn't mean that those suffering under the yoke of imperial rule were not oppressed or indeed members of an oppressed nation.
Well yes but surely the basis of Welsh nationalism is that Wales is in some way being held back economically by England.
I have come across no convincing examples of present-day English oppression of the Welsh.
If you know of any please tell.

[lewislewis]

How can you have socialism in a state that is a remnant of colonialism?

Didn't the SWP support the African nationalist movements whilst also calling for socialism? Why can't they do the same in Wales?

Wales does exist Udo, I don't think many people in this country would agree with you that it doesn't. You need to realise that this world isn't fair, but I can't see it changing before someone presses the nuclear button. I'd rather die in an unjust, capitalist Wales than the artificial UK super-state.

[jannerboyuk]

Well yes but surely the basis of Welsh nationalism is that Wales is in some way being held back economically by England.
I have come across no convincing examples of present-day English oppression of the Welsh.
If you know of any please tell.
As i am not a welsh nationalist i wouldn't really know if the basis of welsh nationalism is any such thing. I was merely pointing out that imperialism is not merely an economic construct.

[nwnm]

Niclas - I think you deserve a point by point reply


1) “I doubt that CG accused Charlie Kimber of "being English". I wasn't at the particular meeting in question but surely you mean someone who may or may not be a CG member mentioned that Kimber was English “ Well I was - and the fact that the person who said it was representing Cymru Goch on the platform was kind of a give away….

2)“While the SWP was dismissing the 1984-5 miners' support groups as "charity", CG (with other activists) was actively supporting miners in their communities.” Actually the SWP were involved in setting up one of the first support groups in the UK

3)”While the SWP was calling on trade unionists to pass motions denouncing the poll tax, CG (and other socialists, notably Militant) was organising in working-class communities to build a mass non-payment campaign“ The first person to be imprisoned in England for non-payment was in fact a member of the SWP, (his ‘Mackenzies friend’ was a Militant supporter) .


4)”CG's reasons for leaving the WSA were varied, as I recall. They were soon followed by the SP” Nope - CG walked out of the WSA annual conference after losing the vote on independence. They walked out during the lunch break. Not particularly politically astute; as nobody noticed that they didn’t return until conference finished! The SP left after losing the vote for candidate at an election hustings meeting. The SP later claimed this was ‘packed out’ by SWP members, an assertion strenuously denied by amongst others the Alliance for Workers Liberty - not exactly bed-fellows of the SWP; (not to mention the various non aligned WSA’ers present).

5)”Forward Wales could have been a Welsh version of the SSP. It became Old Labour MkII. Despite that, it mobilised the successful campaign against stock transfer in Wrexham (and only last week the council admitted that tenants were still opposed as strongly as before), launched campaigns for free school meals and against the sell off of council housing, fought fascists trying to muscle in on the tail of the Caia Pk riots, won trade union affiliation from the RMT, initiated the anti-war campaign in Wrexham and came within 20 votes of winning 3 seats on Wrexham Council (only got one, but it only missed beating the council leader by 14 votes). Not a bad result in 18 months - I wonder if Respect can point to any similar successes?” Lets see….we have an MP who won standing for RESPECT (not as an independent), 4 candidates who came second and quite a number who came 3rd in the General Election. I believe that with the last couple of defections from the New Labour we have around 10 councillors. We grew out of the anti war movement have one Trade Union General Secretary who’s a member (at least one other is sympathetic) and have a record of raising support for strikes such as Gate Gourmet, Rolls Royce, PCS, Sefton UNISON etc. Oh and we also initiated the 10,000 strong Unite Against Racism festival in Liverpool, after the murder of Anthony Walker. I think this places the achievements of Forward Wales in context.

6)”Despite this, it failed. Socialists joined with their eyes opened and maybe should have seen it coming - but ‘better to have fought and lost than not have fought at all‘... the experience gained will be put to good use” Actually you didn’t fight at all. You went along with a ban on members being allowed to sell newspapers etc - so that effectively members of existing organisations would either have to leave or dissolve their organisations to join Forward Wales - this is anathema to both the Scottish Socialist Party and RESPECT, which allows affiliated organisations to continue selling their literature.

The last thing we need now is for the left to dissolve into even smaller splinter parties; although I’m sure there are some people who are more than happy to reinvent the wheel endlessly (ever see a film called “The Incredible Shrinking Man?). Personally, I think RESPECT offers the best hope of uniting the left with hitherto unorganised sections of the working class. I don’t expect to convince you of this - but hope we can find ways of working together over issues that matter, and areas where we find agreement.

[rednblack]

glad to see CG walking out of the stupid forward wales project, i always had time for them - maybe they should look across the border at the iwca for some tips

[niclas]

NWNM, I think I too will have to reply point by point...

Niclas - I think you deserve a point by point reply


1) “I doubt that CG accused Charlie Kimber of "being English". I wasn't at the particular meeting in question but surely you mean someone who may or may not be a CG member mentioned that Kimber was English “ Well I was - and the fact that the person who said it was representing Cymru Goch on the platform was kind of a give away….

Can't argue with that.

2)“While the SWP was dismissing the 1984-5 miners' support groups as "charity", CG (with other activists) was actively supporting miners in their communities.” Actually the SWP were involved in setting up one of the first support groups in the UK

Silly me - there I was thinking in a Welsh context, this being a Welsh board after all. The SWP was noticeable by its absence in the miners' support groups until a turn by the leadership in the last couple of months of the strike.

3)”While the SWP was calling on trade unionists to pass motions denouncing the poll tax, CG (and other socialists, notably Militant) was organising in working-class communities to build a mass non-payment campaign“ The first person to be imprisoned in England for non-payment was in fact a member of the SWP, (his ‘Mackenzies friend’ was a Militant supporter) .

Not the same thing (and again I was talking about Wales). Militant and CG (as well as anarchists and non-aligned socialists) understood the importance of the mass non-payment campaign while the SWP thought that getting council workers' unions to refuse to implement the poll tax was the way forward - it was a mistake and you should be big enough to acknowledge it. The SWP was nowhere to be seen in the anti-poll tax feds or the Welsh Campaign Against Poll Tax.

4)”CG's reasons for leaving the WSA were varied, as I recall. They were soon followed by the SP” Nope - CG walked out of the WSA annual conference after losing the vote on independence. They walked out during the lunch break. Not particularly politically astute; as nobody noticed that they didn’t return until conference finished! The SP left after losing the vote for candidate at an election hustings meeting. The SP later claimed this was ‘packed out’ by SWP members, an assertion strenuously denied by amongst others the Alliance for Workers Liberty - not exactly bed-fellows of the SWP; (not to mention the various non aligned WSA’ers present).

Not true - we went to the pub at lunchtime (not a walk out) and just never made it back! How could we have walked out when one of our members was elected to the editorial board of the WSA paper and continued to edit that for some months after the conference? CG officially left in a statement some time later. The underlying reasons why the SP left are, apart from the independence question, similar to CG - the SWP entered the WSA and treated it as one of their infamous front organisations. Anyone remember the fun had when the SWP tried to stop Welsh Socialist Voice from getting off the ground? It led to the resignation of all the independents, CG and SP members from the editorial cmttee.

5) Lets see….we have an MP who won standing for RESPECT (not as an independent), 4 candidates who came second and quite a number who came 3rd in the General Election. I believe that with the last couple of defections from the New Labour we have around 10 councillors. We grew out of the anti war movement have one Trade Union General Secretary who’s a member (at least one other is sympathetic) and have a record of raising support for strikes such as Gate Gourmet, Rolls Royce, PCS, Sefton UNISON etc. Oh and we also initiated the 10,000 strong Unite Against Racism festival in Liverpool, after the murder of Anthony Walker. I think this places the achievements of Forward Wales in context.

You don't get it, do you? I was talking in a Welsh context. To compare Respect in EnglandnWales with FW is nonsense and you know it. Respect in Wales has hardly set the world on fire, has it?


The last thing we need now is for the left to dissolve into even smaller splinter parties; although I’m sure there are some people who are more than happy to reinvent the wheel endlessly (ever see a film called “The Incredible Shrinking Man?). Personally, I think RESPECT offers the best hope of uniting the left with hitherto unorganised sections of the working class. I don’t expect to convince you of this - but hope we can find ways of working together over issues that matter, and areas where we find agreement.

It'd be interesting to know how RESPECT can do this more successfully than the WSA.
I have no intention of splintering into ever smaller parties and will happily work with any socialist on campaigns on which we can agree - but don't kid yourself that RESPECT's the only game in town on the left in Wales. Given the fractures in the "unity" coalition, it's only a matter of time before that splinters too.

[nwnm]

Here we go again -

1)“Silly me - there I was thinking in a Welsh context, this being a Welsh board after all. The SWP was noticeable by its absence in the miners' support groups until a turn by the leadership in the last couple of months of the strike.” That’s funny - I thought socialists were supposed to be internationalists, (presumably neither of us should have mentioned the SSP either…) We were active in Miners Support Groups in areas where we had members - there are still a layer of people around who joined the SWP during the dispute. We also continued selling papers at some of the pits we went to AFTER the strike up until they closed. At one pit on the last day the miners not only bought every copy we had - but invite the girls doing the sale in for breakfast in the canteen!

2)”Militant and CG (as well as anarchists and non-aligned socialists) understood the importance of the mass non-payment campaign while the SWP thought that getting council workers' unions to refuse to implement the poll tax was the way forward - it was a mistake and you should be big enough to acknowledge it. The SWP was nowhere to be seen in the anti-poll tax feds or the Welsh Campaign Against Poll Tax“ So you were not in favour of people taking industrial action against the poll tax then? There were a small number of strikes - we tried to spread them. Some were against implementing the poll tax, others focussed on adding the poll tax to wage demands. Obviously the ones based on implementation were the most political, but they fizzled out after a while. We WERE also involved in local anti poll tax Feds. In fact, we had quite a few delegates from Wales at the 2nd All Britain Anti Poll Tax Fed conference in Manchester, (but I am probably banned from mentioning that - as it was not held in Cymru….) Why do you try so hard to write us out of existence? Who leant you the air brush, Joe bloody Stalin?

3)”The underlying reasons why the SP left are, apart from the independence question, similar to CG - the SWP entered the WSA and treated it as one of their infamous front organisations. Anyone remember the fun had when the SWP tried to stop Welsh Socialist Voice from getting off the ground? It led to the resignation of all the independents, CG and SP members from the editorial cmttee“ You are right! CG and the SP left for exactly the same reasons actually - you lost the vote on something! Welsh Socialist Voice is an interesting case in point, and shows the difference in attitude to democratic decisions between ourselves and yourselves. At the conference we agued against setting up what became Welsh Socialist Voice. I personally thought it was a bit premature for such a small organisation to produce a newspaper, and that it might be financially crippling. I was in favour of further developing the newsletter which was already being produced, with a view to eventually producing a paper. We lost the vote, but got involved in producing and writing for the paper despite this. The editorial committee had 2 SWP members, 2 non-aligned members, 1 CG and 1 SP. 1 non-aligned member resigned citing other commitments, (there was also geographical/logistical problems in terms of meetings to decide content - the internet wasn’t as prevalent as it is now). Then CG and the SP dropped out. But WSV was still produced! Who by? The remaining editorial committee - the majority of whom were SWP. Who wrote for SWV? Well quite a lot of it was done by SWP members actually. Which area sold the most copies? Newport - which had a very large SWP contingent. Don’t even try to lecture me about democratic decision making pal.

4)”To compare Respect in EnglandnWales with FW is nonsense and you know it. Respect in Wales has hardly set the world on fire, has it?” Again your narrow nationalism astounds me. RESPECT in Wales is small but growing, The vote in the election was miniscule, but come on, FW wasn’t much better - not that dissimilar to the old WSA in fact. We also picked up a sizeable vote when we stood in a council by-election in Neath. But to talk of FW in the same terms as RESPECT as an entity is to have the FW tail Wagging a growing RESPECT pup.

5)”It'd be interesting to know how RESPECT can do this more successfully than the WSA.” Its doing it with a lot less internal wrangling for a start! And reaching into areas that the WSA was beginning to, before its collapse, via the anti war movement and the radicalisation of some sections of the Muslim communities as well as working around strikes and any other issues that crop up in working class communities. In fact, the way that the old Socialist Alliance in England got its only elected councillor in Sheffield. He is now of course a RESPECT Councillor.

[chilango]

As an ex SWP member I unreservedly and humbly apologise for once being a student.However I am Scottish and free of English taint. ;)
Can you explain what's wrong with being a student and English?Oh and by the way I know loads of Welsh SWP members.

Nowt.

Just that people who are not from Wales and are based at the UofW are not likely to be the most credible in an arguemnet about the national question.

[chilango]

They have produced bilingual stuff for colleges with bilingual policies.
But anyway why bother?All Welsh speakers can read English anyway. ;)

Only cos they aren´t allowed to put posters up otherwise.

When i was an SWP student organiser in Wales ( :o ) they never produced a single piece of publicity in Welsh.(only what i translated myself) Despite trying to set up branches in places like Neath and Aberystwyth.

That is ignorance, plain and simple.

[chilango]

I disagree with those who criticise the SWP for being mainly English ex-students. They also have some good Welsh working-class activists, e.g. in Neath, Blackwood and Cwmbran. But, when push came to shove, these comrades too opted for "internationalism" over "provincialism" (to quote Udo at his most revealing).
:D


There are no doubt good Welsh working class activists.

BUt its "leading cadre" were in my time at least, not.

Crucially, they determined activity and policy (following Londons orders of course) which meant that they could never provide a credible challenge to, or engagement with nationalist ideas.

[nwnm]

Originally Posted by osterberg
They have produced bilingual stuff for colleges with bilingual policies.
But anyway why bother?All Welsh speakers can read English anyway.

Chilango said “Only cos they aren´t allowed to put posters up otherwise. When i was an SWP student organiser in Wales they never produced a single piece of publicity in Welsh.(only what i translated myself) Despite trying to set up branches in places like Neath and Aberystwyth. That is ignorance, plain and simple. There are no doubt good Welsh working class activists. But its "leading cadre" were in my time at least, not. Crucially, they determined activity and policy (following Londons orders of course) which meant that they could never provide a credible challenge to, or engagement with nationalist ideas.”

How many times can you contradict yourself in one day and still expect to be taken seriously? We either had publicity in Welsh or we didn’t, ( we had leaflets and advertised our meetings in Welsh as well as posters in the colleges. And lets not forget not all the colleges we were active in even implemented their bilingual policies….), you can’t have it both ways mate! We didn’t ‘try’ to set up a branch in Neath we have one! (We hope to relaunch one in Aber soon).How can you whinge about translating stuff? Doh….aren’t organisers supposed to erm organise things then? Presumably you wanted to be spoon fed publicity from London. There’s not much point whingeing about the lack of working class cred of the ’leading cadre’, as you claim to have been an ’SWP student organiser in Wales’ you would have been part of that cadre, and therefore part of the problem. Sounds like ’engaging’ with tippex’n’typewriters was a major challenge for you. As far as the SWP goes, its amazing that a thread that could be focussing on prospects for the left if Forward Wales does collapse turns into another lets rant about the SWP session. We must be ’reaching the parts other beers can’t’ otherwise you wouldn’t spend so much time slagging us off!

[chilango]

How many times can you contradict yourself in one day and still expect to be taken seriously? We either had publicity in Welsh or we didn’t,

No contradiction. We didn´t.


We didn’t ‘try’ to set up a branch in Neath we have one!

Okay.

(We hope to relaunch one in Aber soon)

Really? :rolleyes:

.How can you whinge about translating stuff? Doh….aren’t organisers supposed to erm organise things then? Presumably you wanted to be spoon fed publicity from London.

Hmm. London send me hundreds of posters that i can´t use.

London can print stuff cheaper than me?

If all organisers were just making their own publicity than fine, happily "spoonfeed" me stuff in english but won´t bother doing stuff in Welsh?

There’s not much point whingeing about the lack of working class cred of the ’leading cadre’, as you claim to have been an ’SWP student organiser in Wales’ you would have been part of that cadre, and therefore part of the problem.


Yup. Like many others of my generation who left and/or were forced out by a leadership clique.

The student organiser at Cardiff and Glamorgan Unis both quit, the entire SWSS group at Cardiff quit too. Sound healthy?

Sounds like ’engaging’ with tippex’n’typewriters was a major challenge for you.

Er....no. but nevermind.

As far as the SWP goes, its amazing that a thread that could be focussing on prospects for the left if Forward Wales does collapse turns into another lets rant about the SWP session. We must be ’reaching the parts other beers can’t’ otherwise you wouldn’t spend so much time slagging us off!

The SWP are very relevent here as a major reason why there isn´t a a "Welsh Left" for the reasons debated above.

But keep to your wishful thinking if you like, and fail to learn from your organisations history and we´ll see what happens to your loyalty in a few years time...

[niclas]

the old Socialist Alliance in England got its only elected councillor in Sheffield. He is now of course a RESPECT Councillor.

I think you'll find it's Preston, but what the hell... there's only so many times I want to bang my head against a brick (shurely Brit? ;) ) wall.

This moved on from being a thread about FW because this SWPer called CG a "nationalist organisation". He (and I say this because his manner reminds me of a certain individual in Swansea SWP) may think he can misrepresent CG but this kind of name calling doesn't do much for his attempts to big up RESPECT's credentials as the inclusive party of the left.

It's only inclusive of the left (and quite a few people not on the left) as long as they don't believe in independence for Wales (remember Galloway's meeting in Cardiff re Leanne Wood?).

[osterberg]

This moved on from being a thread about FW because this SWPer called CG a "nationalist organisation". He (and I say this because his manner reminds me of a certain individual in Swansea SWP) may think he can misrepresent CG but this kind of name calling doesn't do much for his attempts to big up RESPECT's credentials as the inclusive party of the left.

It's only inclusive of the left (and quite a few people not on the left) as long as they don't believe in independence for Wales (remember Galloway's meeting in Cardiff re Leanne Wood?).

I don't want to take sides in this little spat but I saw this on the IRSP website(CG's is 'under construction')

'Cymru Goch was formed in 1987 and fights for a Free Socialist Wales. Only the workers of Wales can free themselves from this joke called British democracy. '(my italics)
http://www.irsm.org/general/comrades/cymrugoch/

That sounds like a nationalist organisation to me.I don't know much about CG so I'm happy to be enlightened.

What happened at the Galloway meeting re Leanne Wood?I'm afraid I missed it.

Also it seems to me that Respect in Wales isn't worth arguing about as it doesn't really exist here.
It's a small narrow organisation mainly comprised of the SWP with Galloway as its figurehead which targets muslim communities in the English Midlands and the East-End of London who are angry(quite rightly)about the war.
It has very little appeal to the working class in the rest of the UK.Especially not in Wales.

Oh, I would be very surprised if chilango was ever an 'SWP student organiser'.Perhaps he just staggered past a Socialist Worker sale at uni 30 years ago.

[nwnm]

Chilango, you still claim we didn’t produce publicity material in Welsh, yet here’s GavinB in this very same thread, “They once did the opposite - and printed a load of stuff in Welsh to go to Newport, despite the town having some of the lowest levels of welsh speaking in the whole country. They were told by local members, but thought they knew better apparently.” Sounds like a good reason for getting people to do it locally eh?

You say “Hmm. London send me hundreds of posters that i can´t use. London can print stuff cheaper than me? If all organisers were just making their own publicity than fine, happily "spoonfeed" me stuff in english but won´t bother doing stuff in Welsh?” I hate to disillusion you further but all organisers do produce their own publicity. London printing prices cheaper than here? I don’t think so!

You go on to say “Yup. Like many others of my generation who left and/or were forced out by a leadership clique. The student organiser at Cardiff and Glamorgan Unis both quit, the entire SWSS group at Cardiff quit too. Sound healthy?” Sounds like something from a parallel universe more like! The SWP has never employed organisers on a on a college by college basis. You obviously think we are made of money. When exactly was this dream time you were living in?

Niclas wrote, “I think you'll find it's Preston, but what the hell... there's only so many times I want to bang my head against a brick (shurely Brit?) wall.” You got me bang to writes on that one guv - a slip of the keypads; or it could be the shape of things to come ;)

He Also wrote of RESPECT, “It's only inclusive of the left (and quite a few people not on the left) as long as they don't believe in independence for Wales (remember Galloway's meeting in Cardiff re Leanne Wood?).” Yet heres a quote from the John Marek - the guy you hitched your wagon to in Forward Wales, “On the left you have Plaid Cymru, but they have the aim of independence which denies them mass appeal….but there are more important matters to worry about. Defence of the public services is a key issue. We want to increase control over our health services and utilities” Or on the SSP “Their a pro independence party but we don’t take that view.”
On that programmatic basis YOU could join RESPECT!

Niclas also complained, “This moved on from being a thread about FW because this SWPer called CG a ‘nationalist organisation’” judging by your replies to my posts he’s got a point!

[niclas]

I see you're avoiding the question re Galloway and Leanne Wood - he said there was no place in Respect for people who supported Welsh independence (a policy made with the full consultation for which Galloway is famous).

That's why I think the problems of internal democracy facing FW are likely to be mirrored by Respect further down the line...

[nwnm]

Actually Leanne asked for RESPECT not to stand in Wales because Plaid Cymru were a socialist organisation, and Galloway countered by pointing out they were a nationalist organisation, and true he did rail against their position on independence. But RESPECT (like the WSA, before it) has not got a position on independence. As John Marek put it - there are more important things to worry about.

In terms of the lack or otherwise of internal democracy in FW niclas, Cymru Goch is not exactly blameless in this. CG went along with a constitution which did not allow other political organisations to affiliate - unlike the SSP or RESPECT. In doing so you have left yourselves in the same position as the clandestine groups which used to operate within Arthur Scargill's Socialist Labour Party. A position for which you were even prepared to drop the independence 'principle' which led you to break from the WSA, after the only conference where CG made their independence motion go to a vote (and lost; at previous conferences you always withdrew your motion after debating it in the interests of 'unity').

[LilMissHissyFit]

Glamorgan uni had a rep???

Where?

I go to Glamorgan and had seen NOTHING about any of this advertised there at all

[steeplejack]

The student body at Glamorgan is just about the most politically apathetic and disinterested that I've ever encountered.

[LilMissHissyFit]

True, dont see a problem with that though.Do you believe they should be obliged to be politically motivated just becuase they are students.
Many of them are so busy working their backsides off to keep themselves while in uni they dont have the time nor the incination to do anything else. They are there to study after all, not become campaigners if they dont want to be

[steeplejack]

I'm well aware of all that and no, they are under no obligation to be active.

It was just my observation. Are you always this arsy with people?

[osterberg]

Glamorgan uni had a rep???

Where?

I go to Glamorgan and had seen NOTHING about any of this advertised there at all
Presumably chilango refers to the dim and distant past ( or the dark corners of his fevered imagination).

[LilMissHissyFit]

I'm well aware of all that and no, they are under no obligation to be active.

It was just my observation. Are you always this arsy with people?
Not being arsey at all. Yu seemed to be slating Glamorgan students for being 'apathetic' Im just asking whether you think that they should be polictically motivated since you seem to see it as a negative trait they they arent interested.
I;d say the student body at glamorgan are also likely to be one of the most financially disadvataged student bodies in the country too and I think that makes a MASSIVE difference as to how they have to spend their time when not in uni

[steeplejack]

I was observing my own experience of them. I didn't offer a value judgement either way.

[LilMissHissyFit]

Apathatic and disinterested would seem pretty judgemental. Maybe they simply havent got the time to get involved in political argiung in the same way others do.
What exactly is your experience of them from which you base your observations?

[LilMissHissyFit]

Presumably chilango refers to the dim and distant past ( or the dark corners of his fevered imagination).

Possibly, if they did I;d love to know about it :confused:

[steeplejack]

What exactly is your experience of them from which you base your observations?

None of your business.

[LilMissHissyFit]

so why make claims about the 'glamorgan student body' on a BB if you arent going to reveal what you base your observations on.
It makes you look laughable quite frankly. If anyone else posted stuff up here without being asked to quanify their opinion they'd be laughed at. what makes you think youre exempt? :confused:

[steeplejack]

I'm not remotely interested in your personal opinion of me.

[LilMissHissyFit]

LOLITTY LOL
Then I hope you'll understand how nobody can take your opinion of the Glamorgan student body seriously either :D

[chilango]

Oh dear.

If you don´t like what is said call it lies.

..and you wonder why so many people hate the SWP. :rolleyes:

FYI, I was a student organiser in a college of the UofW (not paid obviously) in the early 90s. If the SWP have any members left from back then (admittedly a tall order given its turnover) they´ll remember me (albeit not too fondly! as I was witness to some disgraceful behaviour...I´ll reminicse if you like ;) ) The SWSS branch was about 20 strong (active rather than paper), Glamorgan had an active (though smaller) SWSS group too, but then this was back during a period of rapid growth for the SWP (the "upturn").

Do the SWP not centrally produce posters for London demos, campaigns, Marxism etc. anymore? you must be in a bad way if organisers are expected to produce these themselves these days, but then I did hear a rumour that the printshop (owned, staffed and run by the SWP so presumably preferable to use than local comercial printers?) was closing...

[osterberg]

Oh dear.

If you don´t like what is said call it lies.

..and you wonder why so many people hate the SWP. :rolleyes:

FYI, I was a student organiser in a college of the UofW (not paid obviously) in the early 90s. .
I don't remember you being in the SWP in the early 90's.And I'm not an SWP member anymore.

[chilango]

I don't remember you being in the SWP in the early 90's.And I'm not an SWP member.

So how would you remember me then?

Ask me a question for verification if you like.

[osterberg]

Forget I ever said anything.

[chilango]

....removed.....

[osterberg]

Damn!Didn't edit fast enough.
Your writing style and views are very like this idiot I know and I thought you might be him.And I can't stand him.
My humblest apologies. :( :(

[nwnm]

chilango -

"If you don´t like what is said call it lies." More like, if you don't like bullshit complain about the smell :D


sorry mate - I was around at the time and haven't got a clue who you are or what you are talking about!

"I was a student organiser in a college of the UofW (not paid obviously) in the early 90s." In other words you were a student who drifted in and out of SWSS briefly. We would never be pompous enough to bestow the title organiser on any one member who happened to be at college.

"Do the SWP not centrally produce posters for London demos, campaigns, Marxism etc. anymore?" Yes, but we are not just a 'London' based group. We flogged our old printer and warehouse and now have swanky new offices instead, (and because of advances in printing its cheaper to get other people to do it - and less time consuming)

LilMissHissyFit - Fear not! As we will be coming to a college near you! OK, we'll be doing stuff at uni of Glam. Due to some really successful stalls there at the end of the last academic year. PM me if you would like to know what we are up to and when, and I'll keep you informed

[chilango]

Damn!Didn't edit fast enough.
Your writing style and views are very like this idiot I know and I thought you might be him.And I can't stand him.
My humblest apologies. :( :(


Thats okay.

Was he around back then too?...I might remember him!

[chilango]

sorry mate - I was around at the time and haven't got a clue who you are or what you are talking about!

Well you can´t have been active then.

Were you at any demos, meetings protests etc in the early to mid 90s?

If so you´ll almost certainly remember who I am.

As I said - how do you want me to prove this?

"I was a student organiser in a college of the UofW (not paid obviously) in the early 90s." In other words you were a student who drifted in and out of SWSS briefly. We would never be pompous enough to bestow the title organiser on any one member who happened to be at college.

What title would you use then?

The points made still apply.



"Do the SWP not centrally produce posters for London demos, campaigns, Marxism etc. anymore?" Yes, but we are not just a 'London' based group. We flogged our old printer and warehouse and now have swanky new offices instead, (and because of advances in printing its cheaper to get other people to do it - and less time consuming)

Okay. Times have changed then.

[chilango]

Incidentally, if anyone wants to keep the thread alive re the chances of a "Welsh Left" and the relationship between the various groups and the national question, I´d be interested...

you can always PM me about who I am and whether you you remember me if you feel the need.

[osterberg]

Thats okay.

Was he around back then too?...I might remember him!
You wouldn't want to remember him.

Again,I'm very sorry.

[nwnm]

"Were you at any demos, meetings protests etc in the early to mid 90s?
If so you´ll almost certainly remember who I am." I probably helped organise most of them and still don't have the foggiest who you are

"As I said - how do you want me to prove this?" Just PM your name to me - I'm hardly going to send the boys round :rolleyes: Besides this is probably getting pretty tedious for anyone who wanted to follow the original thread.

"The points made still apply." You didn't make any except to say you witnessed some disgraceful behaviour. In my experience thats WHY people go to college ;)

I must admit the human sacrifices, orgies complete with vodka jelly with added coke and the ritual Tony Cliff deification poem wore a bit thin after a while :D How did it go.... 'Oh Cliff! Cliff! oh oasis in the desert! Oh brightest Star in the night sky! Oh how we Worship Thee! Oh everlasting dialectician!Oh jewel in all our crowns! We are not worthy to float in the toilet bowl in which you defecate!' This had to be sung to the tune of 'The Internationale'. Oh hang on a minute - I'm getting mixed up with Gerry Healey and the WRP :D

[chilango]

[QUOTE=nwnmI must admit the human sacrifices, orgies complete with vodka jelly with added coke and the ritual Tony Cliff deification poem wore a bit thin after a while :D How did it go.... 'Oh Cliff! Cliff! oh oasis in the desert! Oh brightest Star in the night sky! Oh how we Worship Thee! Oh everlasting dialectician!Oh jewel in all our crowns! We are not worthy to float in the toilet bowl in which you defecate!' This had to be sung to the tune of 'The Internationale'. [/QUOTE]

So you knew Dafydd too..... :D

[nwnm]

OMG otherwise known as Mad dav

[chilango]

OMG otherwise known as Mad dav

The very same.

Temple in his house. Yoghurt for suncream etc.

:D

[nwnm]

seriously though, a visit to this link gives you an idea of how much CG tried to bury their politics whilst in FW -
http://www.newswales.co.uk/?section=Politics&F=1&id=6401

I'll cut and paste a snippett here. Whilst it was an obvious attempt at a press whitch-hunt, and the terrorism stuff is all tabloid bollocks, denying having anything to do CG is hardly a position of principle for one of its more senior members is it?


‘Marek man denies terror link
11/4/2003
Dr John Marek's election running mate Marc Jones this week denied he had any association with an organisation supporting terrorism.

Earlier this week the Wrexham Evening Leader revealed Marc Jones, who is standing as a John Marek Independent candidate for the Clwyd South seat in the Welsh Assembly, had been a member of Cymru Goch and that the group had published statements of solidarity to the Irish Republican Socialist Party (IRSP) which has links to the terrorist group the Irish National Liberation Army.

Later this week Mr Jones maintained he had disassociated himself from Cymru Goch years ago. Mr Jones said: "I am no longer involved with Cymru Goch." '

[jannerboyuk]

Later this week Mr Jones maintained he had disassociated himself from Cymru Goch years ago. Mr Jones said: "I am no longer involved with Cymru Goch." '
Out of curiousity how do you know this statement is untrue?

[nwnm]

the claim to have resigned CG years ago is a bit of an overstatement.

In January 2002 he was the CG representative on the editorial board of Welsh Socialist Voice, he walked out of the WSA (with the rest of CG) in May 2002, and FW was set up in November 2003. Even being generous and pretending CG dissolved after leaving the WSA (which they didn't) would give you 18 months - but not years.... I think thats called poetic licence.

[jannerboyuk]

the claim to have resigned CG years ago is a bit of an overstatement.

In January 2002 he was the CG representative on the editorial board of Welsh Socialist Voice, he walked out of the WSA (with the rest of CG) in May 2002, and FW was set up in November 2003. Even being generous and pretending CG dissolved after leaving the WSA (which they didn't) would give you 18 months - but not years.... I think thats called poetic licence.
So its not evidence of CG burying their politics but a possible 'dissembling' by one probably ex-member. Not saying you are wrong but this isn't proof of anything either way. Besides maybe he left CG soon after May 2002 which would make it years.
How do you know CG didn't dissolve when FW was set up? I can't find any evidence of their continuing existence. Again not saying you are wrong but its not beyond possibility that CG did dissolve if only for the practical reasons of their members working for another political project in FW. A small group would find it hard to keep going under those circumstances.

[lewislewis]

When 'Forward Wales' winds up, maybe they'll let Marek rejoin the Labour Party?

[nwnm]

Even allowing for this, highly unlikely scenario, would make it a couple of years from the press article I cut and pasted but not years as in - when was the last time england won the world cup? Now theres an example of poetic licence V poetic justice :D

I think CG did dissolve formally as a 'public' organisation (i.e. no magazine, aside from the slightly boader Seren,) but carried on in the way some of the more clandestine groups in Scargill's SLP did (or even the entrist groups in the Labour Party). The thing that would have kept them going would have been pushing for independence to become the policy of FW (and changing the name of the organisation). Again, in this thread, independence has been flagged up as a major bone of contention - as it was in the WSA. 'Formally' dissolving their organisation was seen as a price worth paying for keeping out what they describe as the 'Brit Left'.

[jannerboyuk]

Even allowing for this, highly unlikely scenario, would make it a couple of years from the press article I cut and pasted but not years as in - when was the last time england won the world cup? Now theres an example of poetic licence V poetic justice :D

I think CG did dissolve formally as a 'public' organisation (i.e. no magazine, aside from the slightly boader Seren,) but carried on in the way some of the more clandestine groups in Scargill's SLP did (or even the entrist groups in the Labour Party). The thing that would have kept them going would have been pushing for independence to become the policy of FW (and changing the name of the organisation). Again, in this thread, independence has been flagged up as a major bone of contention - as it was in the WSA. 'Formally' dissolving their organisation was seen as a price worth paying for keeping out what they describe as the 'Brit Left'.
Hmm thats the problem with accusing a group of being clandestine...by its nature evidence is a problem. Are you saying you have some inside information that they continued as a 'disciplined' group or just an assumption? It'll be interesting to see if a CG or similar re-emerges now that FW is going down the pan.

[nwnm]

"we went to the pub at lunchtime (not a walk out) and just never made it back!"

"Are you saying you have some inside information that they continued as a 'disciplined' group or just an assumption?"

I think judging by the first quote (from niclas) the words 'disciplined' and 'Cymru Goch' do not sit together at all well :D

I think I will be interested in what happens to both sides from the Forward Wales experiment

[lewislewis]

One consolation for Forward Wales is that they achieved alot more than Respect, LOL.

[nwnm]

I can see the 'echo' headline now - "Tail Wags Dog - Shock!"

[socialistcelt]

Now that these so called 'activists' have left FW , and I think the door was left open for them to walk, does that mean that the likes of Marc Jones and Maurice - that 'web secretary genius' will go back to Cymru Goch? is it still operating? they seem to be having problems with their web site, I hope what ever they do they don't let the FW ex-web sec. get his hands on it..

[jannerboyuk]

Now that these so called 'activists' have left FW , and I think the door was left open for them to walk, does that mean that the likes of Marc Jones and Maurice - that 'web secretary genius' will go back to Cymru Goch? is it still operating? they seem to be having problems with their web site, I hope what ever they do they don't let the FW ex-web sec. get his hands on it..
If you've got some inside info why don't you spill the beans? Why so coy?

[socialistcelt]

If you've got some inside info why don't you spill the beans? Why so coy?

What's your interest?

[jannerboyuk]

What's your interest?
Me? I'm MI5 obviously. :rolleyes:

[osterberg]

One consolation for Forward Wales is that they achieved alot more than Respect, LOL.
They did indeed.
A tiny number of votes rather than a miniscule number of votes.
A real acheivement :rolleyes:

[socialistcelt]

Me? I'm MI5 obviously. :rolleyes:

Ok, you can crack jokes too, you made me laugh.

Back to the point. Ive looked at your web pages, so you must know who seren is then? Am I right in saying that Marc Jones runs seren? Along with billy no mates mr anorak maurice.
What is my interest? well, I like reading between the lines and getting the real story behind the headline and it seems like these two blokes have an identity issue-crisis and they don't seem to like other people having their opinions which are different to theirs so what do they do? They leave and set up a story rubbishing the party that they hid behind when in reality they had their own agenda right from the start. :p

[jannerboyuk]

Ok, you can crack jokes too, you made me laugh.

Back to the point. Ive looked at your web pages, so you must know who seren is then? Am I right in saying that Marc Jones runs seren? Along with billy no mates mr anorak maurice.
What is my interest? well, I like reading between the lines and getting the real story behind the headline and it seems like these two blokes have an identity issue-crisis and they don't seem to like other people having their opinions which are different to theirs so what do they do? They leave and set up a story rubbishing the party that they hid behind when in reality they had their own agenda right from the start. :p
It wasn't meant as a joke.
I know of Seren which as i understand it is now a blog and nothing more.
I've no idea who runs Seren and i've never met Marc Jones and only know of him as someone who was involved in Cymru Goch.
Its no point making personal comments about people I don't know.
I don't care about your interest in this or anything else but you hinted at some inside information but that was obviously misleading to say the least.
If you are so keen to name names, why don't you reveal your own name.
Jeff Baxter

[socialistcelt]

It wasn't meant as a joke.
I know of Seren which as i understand it is now a blog and nothing more.
I've no idea who runs Seren and i've never met Marc Jones and only know of him as someone who was involved in Cymru Goch.
Its no point making personal comments about people I don't know.
I don't care about your interest in this or anything else but you hinted at some inside information but that was obviously misleading to say the least.
If you are so keen to name names, why don't you reveal your own name.
Jeff Baxter

If you didn't care about my interest in this or anything else then why reply to my first comment? You obviously thought I had inside information, I didn't say I had inside information, so it wasn't mis-leading. What I did say was
Quote:
Now that these so called 'activists' have left FW , and I think the door was left open for them to walk, does that mean that the likes of Marc Jones and Maurice - that 'web secretary genius' will go back to Cymru Goch? is it still operating? they seem to be having problems with their web site, I hope what ever they do they don't let the FW ex-web sec. get his hands on it..end of Quote.
As far as naming names, my name is Clare Jones, does that make any difference to your life?
The point I am making is: if seren is going to go on record as saying a political party is going down the pan, then surely the response they are going to get is going to be a mixed bag. You will have those who agree and those who don't. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other, as it will not affect my life at all. But all I asked you was did you know WHO seren was. I was interested because you made a comment on the site. Marc Jones seems to have got himself a bit of a reputation and all I am doing is asking questions and adding what I already know because it is already public knowledge.
And sorry for mistaking your sarcastic comment as a Joke, there was me thinking I was talking to a man with a personality. :)

[jannerboyuk]

If you didn't care about my interest in this or anything else then why reply to my first comment? You obviously thought I had inside information, I didn't say I had inside information, so it wasn't mis-leading. I suppose "I think the door was left open for them to walk" "in reality they had their own agenda right from the start" was the result of telepathy not inside information. Sure.
As far as naming names, my name is Clare Jones, does that make any difference to your life? Fine. I just prefer it when people put a name to an opinion rather hiding behind anonymity, especially when they are naming other people.
It doesn't matter to me one way or the other, as it will not affect my life at all. But all I asked you was did you know WHO seren was. Of course it matters enough to you add a little bile to the mix: "these two blokes have an identity issue-crisis" "so called 'activists'" "billy no mates mr anorak maurice". Very nice. It matters enough to you to register for this website in order to comment on the issue. And you asked me "Am I right in saying that Marc Jones runs seren?" and i answered it.
Nice try at the old disinterested impartial method but not too convincing i'm afraid. 3/10 at best. What job do you do Mr Marek's office again?
All the best
Mr John Smith

[socialistcelt]

Nice try at the old disinterested impartial method but not too convincing i'm afraid. 3/10 at best. What job do you do Mr Marek's office again?
All the best
Mr John Smith

Oh dear! Have I upset you? You are obviously mis-informed my friend. Is that the best you can come up with? You obviously don't like it when people get close to the truth, perhaps I touched a raw nerve.
I got my information from contacts just like seren did and probably, a lot of other people who just want to know the truth. Don't you like the truth? or do you just like the spin?
Telepathy? Well maybe I have that power I am so touched that you have put me on that pedestal or maybe its just having more reliable contacts and doing my homework a little more efficiently. A job in Marek's office? I wish, because I ve heard the money can be quite good but then again I would have to give up my present job which is to chase up stories like the topic in question. Consequences, that's what its all about, isn't it Jeff, John, or jannerboyuk. Convincing? Oh I know I am, because what I set out to achieve I have already achieved. I got the information from other sources who like you played right into my hands. Its all about playing the game.
The FW story was a non starter, fell at the first hurdle, never made first base. I guess by now you will realise, that when I said, "What is my interest? well, I like reading between the lines and getting the real story behind the headline" That is literally what I meant. Don't you ask yourself, why after seren openly supporting FW, all of a sudden they don't because these activists have left? Don't you want to know why? Don't you want to know who these activists are? don't you want to know why , why why and why? There is always a story within a story. Its a shame you didn't spot it, or maybe you didn't want to.
By the way Jeff we have spoken on many topics before, the funny thing is, you just didn't know it.. ;)

[nwnm]

Hmmm.... interesting line of enquiry Clare. I find it interesting that niclas, the originator of this post won't come out to play anymore..... I've got a good mind to ring his doorbell and run away ;) but then he's probably beaten me to it - last seen heading towards Wrexham soccer ground.

It is sad about the state of Wrexham FC, but next to Iraq, social justice, human rights, etc, football doesn't register as a high priority to me. Marek was popular enough to defeat the offical Labour Candidate in the Assembly elections Standing as an independent. Along with the Blaenau Gwent result and George Galloway in the General election (and the other high RESPECT votes), and the SSP results in the scottish parliament, these stands as high water marks in terms of disillusionment with New Labour.

The pertinent point is how does the left find the best way of uniting a core socialist/green/anti-war vote, and turn it into the sort of results the Left Party acheived in Germany?

[chilango]

The pertinent point is how does the left find the best way of uniting a core socialist/green/anti-war vote, and turn it into the sort of results the Left Party acheived in Germany?

Good, back to the point.

a) you missed out "republican/nationalist/seperatist" vote. Would you include them as the FW project tried?

b) the green vote already has a credible Party. how would you present an alternative to the Green Party to these voters?

c) "anti-war" vote? is there such athing? how sustainable is it?

[socialistcelt]

Hmmm.... interesting line of enquiry Clare. I find it interesting that niclas, the originator of this post won't come out to play anymore..... I've got a good mind to ring his doorbell and run away ;) but then he's probably beaten me to it - last seen heading towards Wrexham soccer ground.

It is sad about the state of Wrexham FC, but next to Iraq, social justice, human rights, etc, football doesn't register as a high priority to me. Marek was popular enough to defeat the offical Labour Candidate in the Assembly elections Standing as an independent. Along with the Blaenau Gwent result and George Galloway in the General election (and the other high RESPECT votes), and the SSP results in the scottish parliament, these stands as high water marks in terms of disillusionment with New Labour.

The pertinent point is how does the left find the best way of uniting a core socialist/green/anti-war vote, and turn it into the sort of results the Left Party acheived in Germany?

At last, someone with something constructive to say..Your latter point, I cannot answer that, as can anyone else, I do not think any of the parties are ready for any kind of merge. I think they may try to work together but only if each of them feel they can come out on top, that's politics. How far left would each party have to go if they did merge? what would their policies be and how many changes would they be willing to make? who would be their leader/s? It would be very interesting to know if any of these parties have thought about it, but I probably already know the answer to that as will you. I think in a couple of years its a real possibility so I guess we will have to continue watching that space.
Niclas, Ah yes- the house built on sand- Tell me when you rang his doorbell and ran away was his house made of glass? He really shouldn't go throwing stones now should he...and yes he probably has gone off to Wrexham football ground but I think he was always the last kid picked for a game of footie and was probably made to go fetch the ball when it got kicked over someone's fence... :D Seriously though, yes there are more important issues. Like the EColi outbreak, The African famine, child poverty and slavery, George Bush's continual destruction of the Ozone layer. So many real issues which could take up a lot of time discussing, so please, if we agree, lets just smiley face it. :)

[nwnm]

chilango said -
"a) you missed out 'republican/nationalist/seperatist' vote. Would you include them as the FW project tried?

b) the green vote already has a credible Party. how would you present an alternative to the Green Party to these voters?

c) 'anti-war' vote? is there such athing? how sustainable is it?"

To the first point I would say a probable yes as long as it was not made a point of principle for any formation. The problem here is that CG turn it into a point of principle whenever they decide to leave; which kind of rules them out of any genuine left unity unless they change their spots....

To your second point - you are quite right! RESPECT did approach the Greens to run a united electoral campaign - but they refused to entertain the idea. That was when RESPECT was first set up. The Greens also thought they would get an MP in Brighton to add to their MEP. This did not materialise, and RESPECT came out the stronger in the General Election. Hopefully this might open the door to some sort of electoral agreements in the future.

To your 3rd point - there is definately an anti-war vote. Unfortunately (and undeservedly) I think the Lib Dems have been the main beneficiaries of this. Their claims to be to the left of New Labour must surely decline now that they are running a number of councils around the UK in coalition with the Tories....

socialistcelt said
" I do not think any of the parties are ready for any kind of merge. I think they may try to work together but only if each of them feel they can come out on top, that's politics. How far left would each party have to go if they did merge? what would their policies be and how many changes would they be willing to make? who would be their leader/s? It would be very interesting to know if any of these parties have thought about it, but I probably already know the answer to that as will you. I think in a couple of years its a real possibility so I guess we will have to continue watching that space."

I agree. any merger would definately take time, and might not happen at all. There are ways in which the parties could work together hypothetically. You could have some form of electoral alliance where for example FW, the Greens and RESPECT stand under one name for assembly elections, Lets take 'Red Green and Radical' just as an example. Each party gets mentioned on the election material (so nobody forfeits their 'brand' name) So no one party is seen to gain at the expense of the other. The other alternative is a non aggression pact (not standing against each other). It is interesting to note however the the Left Party in Germany sorted itself out very quickly with a merger of the PDS and WASG organisations. So who knows? I'm all smileys me :)

[socialistcelt]

chilango said -
"a) you missed out 'republican/nationalist/seperatist' vote. Would you include them as the FW project tried?

b) the green vote already has a credible Party. how would you present an alternative to the Green Party to these voters?

c) 'anti-war' vote? is there such athing? how sustainable is it?"

To the first point I would say a probable yes as long as it was not made a point of principle for any formation. The problem here is that CG turn it into a point of principle whenever they decide to leave; which kind of rules them out of any genuine left unity unless they change their spots....

To your second point - you are quite right! RESPECT did approach the Greens to run a united electoral campaign - but they refused to entertain the idea. That was when RESPECT was first set up. The Greens also thought they would get an MP in Brighton to add to their MEP. This did not materialise, and RESPECT came out the stronger in the General Election. Hopefully this might open the door to some sort of electoral agreements in the future.

To your 3rd point - there is definately an anti-war vote. Unfortunately (and undeservedly) I think the Lib Dems have been the main beneficiaries of this. Their claims to be to the left of New Labour must surely decline now that they are running a number of councils around the UK in coalition with the Tories....

socialistcelt said
" I do not think any of the parties are ready for any kind of merge. I think they may try to work together but only if each of them feel they can come out on top, that's politics. How far left would each party have to go if they did merge? what would their policies be and how many changes would they be willing to make? who would be their leader/s? It would be very interesting to know if any of these parties have thought about it, but I probably already know the answer to that as will you. I think in a couple of years its a real possibility so I guess we will have to continue watching that space."

I agree. any merger would definately take time, and might not happen at all. There are ways in which the parties could work together hypothetically. You could have some form of electoral alliance where for example FW, the Greens and RESPECT stand under one name for assembly elections, Lets take 'Red Green and Radical' just as an example. Each party gets mentioned on the election material (so nobody forfeits their 'brand' name) So no one party is seen to gain at the expense of the other. The other alternative is a non aggression pact (not standing against each other). It is interesting to note however the the Left Party in Germany sorted itself out very quickly with a merger of the PDS and WASG organisations. So who knows? I'm all smileys me :)

Oh excellent, it looks like you and me can have some grand debates. But right now, after a long day at being controversial I am off to the planet zzzz.
Hope to catch up tomorrow maybe.. :)

[lewislewis]

They did indeed.
A tiny number of votes rather than a miniscule number of votes.
A real acheivement :rolleyes:

yeah...hence the clearly visible 'LOL' after the sentence.

As for the Left Party in Germany, they don't organise as a sect like all the left groups in the UK, they consist mainly of the Democratic Socialists who used to be the ruling Communist Party in East Germany and are now a mainstream 'left-of-centre' party.

[lewislewis]

The pertinent point is how does the left find the best way of uniting a core socialist/green/anti-war vote, and turn it into the sort of results the Left Party acheived in Germany?

By getting serious and not sitting on the sidelines maybe?

[niclas]

Looks like I've missed all the fun...

Leaving aside the "we know where you live" stuff, perhaps Clare - who describes herself elsewhere as a political analyst - would like to return to the original thread.

Let's analyse why Cllr Dave Bithell resigned from FW, why the party's general election candidate in Wrexham won't be renewing her membership along with many other good activists, why the website still isn't up and running after five months, why the FW National Council decided to change the party's name unconstitutionally without reference to the membership and why FW stood a candidate in a constituency where they had no members, i.e. the marginal seat of Cardiff North.

Questions of interest to the average political analyst, I'd imagine.

Perhaps that's why there was a need for personal attacks and attempts at "outing" - in order to try to distract attention from the original story. It's obviously not enough that someone loses their job, is it Clare?

[socialistcelt]

Looks like I've missed all the fun...

Leaving aside the "we know where you live" stuff, perhaps Clare - who describes herself elsewhere as a political analyst - would like to return to the original thread.

Let's analyse why Cllr Dave Bithell resigned from FW, why the party's general election candidate in Wrexham won't be renewing her membership along with many other good activists, why the website still isn't up and running after five months, why the FW National Council decided to change the party's name unconstitutionally without reference to the membership and why FW stood a candidate in a constituency where they had no members, i.e. the marginal seat of Cardiff North.

Questions of interest to the average political analyst, I'd imagine.

Perhaps that's why there was a need for personal attacks and attempts at "outing" - in order to try to distract attention from the original story. It's obviously not enough that someone loses their job, is it Clare?

Oh do move on. Get a life.

[nwnm]

"By getting serious and not sitting on the sidelines maybe?" I'd take this more seriously if you weren't sitting in your armchair old son....

Hey niclas maybe socialistcelt might want to analyse why CG voted themselves 'out of existance' to join FW. Maybe if you have a relaunch you can call yourselves 'Dinosaur Junior', (Just don't go into the music bizz). Extinction suits you :D

[osterberg]

By getting serious and not sitting on the sidelines maybe?
So you'll be joining RESPECT then? ;)

[osterberg]

Looks like I've missed all the fun...

Leaving aside the "we know where you live" stuff, perhaps Clare - who describes herself elsewhere as a political analyst - would like to return to the original thread.

Let's analyse why Cllr Dave Bithell resigned from FW, why the party's general election candidate in Wrexham won't be renewing her membership along with many other good activists, why the website still isn't up and running after five months, why the FW National Council decided to change the party's name unconstitutionally without reference to the membership and why FW stood a candidate in a constituency where they had no members, i.e. the marginal seat of Cardiff North.

Questions of interest to the average political analyst, I'd imagine.

Perhaps that's why there was a need for personal attacks and attempts at "outing" - in order to try to distract attention from the original story. It's obviously not enough that someone loses their job, is it Clare?
Perhaps these are questions you should ask John Marek.
It seems he used FW as his own vehicle for his own ends.
He bankrolled it so he called the shots and did what he liked with it.
Perhaps these 'good activists' of which you speak should join RESPECT if they want a viable left alternative to New Labour.
It might not be perfect but at least there are some working class voters who have actually heard of it unlike FW.
And I know your going to slag it off and whinge about some conference resolution that was passed or something incredibly stupid that Galloway said.
And you'll moan about it being an 'SWP' front.
The way to change all that is to join it.Unlike the Labour Party , Respect does listen to its membership who they rely on for activity and funding (sneer if you must :) ).
And if you think there's too many SWP members join and recruit non-SWP members to swamp them with.I'm sure the swappies won't object.
Seriously though,Respect is the only realistic left alternative to New Labour that we've got.
Sometimes you have to play with the hand your dealt.
And its better than 'sitting on the sidelines'. :)

[Karac]

Nah
"Also it seems to me that Respect in Wales isn't worth arguing about as it doesn't really exist here.
It's a small narrow organisation mainly comprised of the SWP with Galloway as its figurehead which targets muslim communities in the English Midlands and the East-End of London who are angry(quite rightly)about the war.
It has very little appeal to the working class in the rest of the UK.Especially not in Wales." ;)

[osterberg]

Nah
"Also it seems to me that Respect in Wales isn't worth arguing about as it doesn't really exist here.
It's a small narrow organisation mainly comprised of the SWP with Galloway as its figurehead which targets muslim communities in the English Midlands and the East-End of London who are angry(quite rightly)about the war.
It has very little appeal to the working class in the rest of the UK.Especially not in Wales." ;)
Hey,I changed my mind. :D
I'm always doing that.Sorry :)

[boblot79]

I know someone who is in FW, Im gonna ask him what's going on. This seems to be a hot topic.

[jannerboyuk]

I know someone who is in FW, Im gonna ask him what's going on. This seems to be a hot topic.
Surprised that Weekly Worker has not covered it yet. Curious.

[nwnm]

"Surprised that Weekly Worker has not covered it yet. Curious." Yeah - then at least we'd know exactly what wasn't happenning in FW :D

[jannerboyuk]

"Surprised that Weekly Worker has not covered it yet. Curious." Yeah - then at least we'd know exactly what wasn't happenning in FW :D
As opposed to that bastion of fearless truth Socialist Worker :rolleyes: .

[nwnm]

Lets see, Socialist Worker - The paper that 'broke' the Fallujah story, Launched the Defend Scargill Campaign when he was being whitch hunted by the Cook Report and Maxwell's Daily Mirror, Campaigned to get South African Trade Unionist Moses Mayekiso released from prison under Apartheid, and more recently has been raising support for the Gate Gourmet strike.

Weekly Worker - famous for putting pictures and writing articles about SWP members on its front page and naming names of anybody who happen to be at a political meeting they attend in their articles. This has led to one SWP member in a 'politically sensitive' job in London getting sacked to my knowledge. If this paper didn't exist MI5 would have to invent it. Maybe they should merge with 'Red Watch'

[jannerboyuk]

Lets see, Socialist Worker - The paper that 'broke' the Fallujah story, Launched the Defend Scargill Campaign when he was being whitch hunted by the Cook Report and Maxwell's Daily Mirror, Campaigned to get South African Trade Unionist Moses Mayekiso released from prison under Apartheid, and more recently has been raising support for the Gate Gourmet strike.

Weekly Worker - famous for putting pictures and writing articles about SWP members on its front page and naming names of anybody who happen to be at a political meeting they attend in their articles. This has led to one SWP member in a 'politically sensitive' job in London getting sacked to my knowledge. If this paper didn't exist MI5 would have to invent it. Maybe they should merge with 'Red Watch'
Ahh the faith of the true believer - such a wonder to behold! Warms the cockles of my heart it does.

[nwnm]

"Ahh the faith of the true believer - such a wonder to behold! Warms the cockles of my heart it does."

God bless yer guv'nor - I'll doff me cap t'yer!

[boblot79]

[QUOTE=jannerboyuk]Surprised that Weekly Worker has not covered it yet. Curious.[/QUOTE

Wat has that got to do with me asking my mate. I don't know, you seem to be the person in the know, you tell everybody...Why..or better still seeing that the only conversation that this story is taking place is here, then does that not tell you something???
By the way, my mate said there is no truth in it and it was started by some sad tossers who couldn't get their own way.If you know something different then tell all otherwise shut the fuck up you sad twat!!! :mad:

[osterberg]

[QUOTE=jannerboyuk]Surprised that Weekly Worker has not covered it yet. Curious.[/QUOTE

Wat has that got to do with me asking my mate. I don't know, you seem to be the person in the know, you tell everybody...Why..or better still seeing that the only conversation that this story is taking place is here, then does that not tell you something???
By the way, my mate said there is no truth in it and it was started by some sad tossers who couldn't get their own way.If you know something different then tell all otherwise shut the fuck up you sad twat!!! :mad:
It is true that Seren don't say where they get thier info from.It would be nice to know.

[jannerboyuk]

[QUOTE=jannerboyuk]Surprised that Weekly Worker has not covered it yet. Curious.[/QUOTE

Wat has that got to do with me asking my mate. I don't know, you seem to be the person in the know, you tell everybody...Why..or better still seeing that the only conversation that this story is taking place is here, then does that not tell you something???
By the way, my mate said there is no truth in it and it was started by some sad tossers who couldn't get their own way.If you know something different then tell all otherwise shut the fuck up you sad twat!!! :mad:
Wow there schizo - you carry on having your conversation with your 'mate' and leave me out of it. Must be fun inside your head if a little noisy.

[nwnm]

"It is true that Seren don't say where they get thier info from.It would be nice to know."

I think Mr jones interviewed himself :confused:

Meanwhile back in the real world around around 350 people came to hear George Galloway speak this afternoon in Swansea University. There are now 130 members of RESPECT Students at Swansea.....

[jannerboyuk]

"It is true that Seren don't say where they get thier info from.It would be nice to know."

I think Mr jones interviewed himself :confused:

Meanwhile back in the real world around around 350 people came to hear George Galloway speak this afternoon in Swansea University. There are now 130 members of RESPECT Students at Swansea.....
There's lovely! You'll be shocked to hear that i'm actually going to pay the £14 to see 'Gorgeous' George (now who used to call him that? Hmm...i'm sure it was a compliment at the time :D ) in Cardiff. Is the real world a nice place? I try not to go there too often.

[nwnm]

"Is the real world a nice place? " Not this side of the revolution - but it does have its moments of fun and frivolity (I say this whilst blasting out "When the Revolution comes" by The Last Poets. The neighbours lurve me :D )

[boblot79]

[QUOTE=boblot79]
Wow there schizo - you carry on having your conversation with your 'mate' and leave me out of it. Must be fun inside your head if a little noisy.

"you have the brain of a two headed-man eating fish haddock from Aberdeen. It doesn't exist"
:D :D

[jannerboyuk]

This message is hidden because boblot79 is on your ignore list.

[boblot79]

OTE=jannerboyuk]This message is hidden because boblot79 is on your ignore list.[/QUOTE]
:eek: :confused: :D

[jannerboyuk]

This message is hidden because boblot79 is on your ignore list.

[osterberg]

Ah! Mature adult behaviour. :p

[boblot79]

Does that mean jannerboyuk is not coming out to play with me any more??? :rolleyes: :)

[nwnm]

does this mean that none of us get to read what jannerboyuk is saying?

[osterberg]

does this mean that none of us get to read what jannerboyuk is saying?

What a terrible loss. :(

[boblot79]

What a terrible loss. :(

I feel it too. He's a sad toss..I mean he's a sad loss.. :cool:

[LilMissHissyFit]

Why would you need him on your ignore list? :confused:

The only person on mine was someone who sent me a PM getting very personal about my kids in a pretty unsavoury way.

Just interested like, you know to know your motivations Jannerboy?

[Col_Buendia]

Yeah.... what LMHF said. Isn't the point of having someone on ignore that you *don't* respond to their posts, rather than posting "This message is hidden because...", which in all fairness, is a reply?