View Full Version : crack use in central brixton
Leighsw2
11-09-2005, 18:12
hi, I'm new to these forums. I've had a read around them and I'm aware the issue has arisen before, but just wanted to ask the question, "are people concerned about crack cocaine use in the Rushcroft, Coldharbour, Saltoun, Effra area?" I hope i'm not being oversensitive but, after living in this area for 8 years, just off Coldharbour, I can't remember it being so bad in terms of users openly consuming crack and heroine, often in broad daylight, down our street. :eek:
Am I over-reacting or do others perceive a similar rise in this problem? And what can we do about it? Or is it time to leave Brixton and live somewhere else? (hope not!) Ideas please!
DrRingDing
11-09-2005, 18:19
If yer can't beat 'em join 'em
It comes and goes in waves, but it's been pretty bad around Coldharbour/Moorlands for years, with the situation noticeably worsening in the last three years.
It hasn't seemed as bad in the last couple of months though: maybe they've moved on or maybe I'm just managing to avoid them (I don't walk down Somerleyton Road any more after being belted by two crack heads in a random attack last year)
It comes and goes in waves, but it's been pretty bad around Coldharbour/Moorlands for years, with the situation noticeably worsening in the last three years.
It hasn't seemed as bad in the last couple of months though: maybe they've moved on or maybe I'm just managing to avoid them (I don't walk down Somerleyton Road any more after being belted by two crack heads in a random attack last year)
I think that when the police crack down a bit in the centre of Brixton people drift out to the sides of Brixton - including some to further down bit of Coldharbour lane. Hence when it gets bad right in the centre it probably gets slightly better further out - round Somerlyton / Coldharbour area now seems a bit better than a few months back.
IntoStella
12-09-2005, 12:17
I live in Rushcroft rd and yes, it has got a lot worse lately (and it was bad before), possibly because a lot of the shenanigans that used to go on in Tate gardens have been displaced. I'm sorry to say people generally just put up with it, myself included, but it is wearing me down. I cannot get a good night's sleep without wearing earplugs and it is stressful having all these fucking goons wandering about in the street all the time. If I complained I would literally be on the phone to the cops five times a night and that would do no good. We (the residents) could kick up a fuss but then the problem would only get displaced again, probably to the next steeet (Saltoun), so what's the point? :(
Brixton Hatter
12-09-2005, 13:24
I think it's worse in the side streets since the police did that Operation Whatchamicallit....and now the Community Cop Shop is open, I doubt it will return to Coldharbour...it'll just stay in the backstreets.
I seem to remember someone saying that the uniformed cops won't get involved in drug use/drug dealing....cos that's the job of the Brixton Drug Squad (which consists of 3 people according to a local copper I met last summer). I guess that's why it openly goes on.......and why dealers can sell openly outside Woolworths with no fear of getting busted.
i live in rushcroft road too. and it has become a bloody nightmare recently...
but i have been complaining so much already i don't want to start today again. what we (the residents) should really do is hang out outside our doors more often in the evenings and have a chat with each other...kind of reclaim the streets tactic...
i will move soon though for me i have lived around here for a real long time ...and i am not the best sleeper even without noise.
top_biller
12-09-2005, 13:37
I live on Rushcroft Road as well and agree with every word Intostella (and Choc) says. I've come home from work to find three crack heads packing pipes in the lobby to our flats, I've seen them hitting pipes at 7.30am sitting on the low wall that runs down the blocks. The bit adjacent to the library is like crackhead central, those three fire exit recessed doors are often completely full with users whilst a queue forms on the other side of the street.
It's worse during the summer but the noise at night is horrendous. I had to go and sleep on the sofa last week cause of some screetching bitch with her cackling laughter. I've come very close to opening my window and telling them to shut the fuck up but I imagine it would have the opposite effect. Its totally blatant as well and I've never seen a single police officer walking down Rushcroft (maybe once or twice in a year and a bit) or checking out the top of the road (except for a bust there a few weeks ago). It would be a turkey shoot if they got their arses in gear.
There's about five traffic wardens patrolling up and down it at any one time though. Great priorities. I'm so fed up with it I'm actively trying to move a bit further out away from CHL.
I live on Rushcroft Road as well and agree with every word Intostella (and Choc) says. I've come home from work to find three crack heads packing pipes in the lobby to our flats, I've seen them hitting pipes at 7.30am sitting on the low wall that runs down the blocks. The bit adjacent to the library is like crackhead central, those three fire exit recessed doors are often completely full with users whilst a queue forms on the other side of the street.
It's worse during the summer but the noise at night is horrendous. I had to go and sleep on the sofa last week cause of some screetching bitch with her cackling laughter. I've come very close to opening my window and telling them to shut the fuck up but I imagine it would have the opposite effect. Its totally blatant as well and I've never seen a single police officer walking down Rushcroft (maybe once or twice in a year and a bit) or checking out the top of the road (except for a bust there a few weeks ago). It would be a turkey shoot if they got their arses in gear.
There's about five traffic wardens patrolling up and down it at any one time though. Great priorities. I'm so fed up with it I'm actively trying to move a bit further out away from CHL.
all agreed...damn shame isn't it.
btw i also sleep sometimes in our sitting room or flatmates room if she isn't around....feels like a holiday innit :rolleyes: :mad: ;)
Is the problem users or dealers or both?
mainly users and using. they smoke everywhere. i don't think there is so much dealing going on (as yet)..
i passed by the aptly named the beat on saturday noon-ish and its was shut. what the bloody point? :rolleyes: :mad:
After a gig at the Academy recently, I had to step over some glaze-eyed guys smoking on the steps going up to the south-bound platform at Brixton station. All three of them were puffing away at glass pipes and there was an acrid smell in the air. Unbelievable.
They didn't even seem to notice me. :eek: :eek: :eek:
Brixton train station is a long favoured haunt for crack smoking and junkies - the tracks above are absolutely littered with filthy needles.
i've written on an old thread that we've seen some junkies around water lane recently... probably refugees from CHL.
Seems to be a lot of crack heads down near Jamm. Daytime anyway.
Though the strangest crack related sight was seeing someone smoking a crack pipe in a fried chicken shop in Seven sisters.
Though the strangest crack related sight was seeing someone smoking a crack pipe in a fried chicken shop in Seven sisters.
multi-tasking.
Though the strangest crack related sight was seeing someone smoking a crack pipe in a fried chicken shop in Seven sisters.
Few weeks ago a bloke lit up next to me on the northern line tube platform at Stockwell, 10am on a Sunday morning!
linerider
12-09-2005, 15:33
Is the problem users or dealers or both?
the dealers moved from outside the albert to in front of the ritzy,this seems to have caused alot more using on rushcroft rd,and alot more muggings on roads like saltoun,which because of being treelined it can't have cameras.
Dave Mullen
12-09-2005, 16:34
I was accosted by a load of them last week outside the back of the Ritzy.
I understand there was talk of a petition to do something about the problem.
A few years ago there was talk of designing crime out of areas with the police and businesses working together to make it less easy for low level nuisance crimes such as street drinking (The aggressive kind not just a couple of hold boys having a couple of tinnies) and higher level crimes such as smoking crack and dealing. I think it was in one of the boroughs north of the Thames it would be useful to find out what happened in this project and if we could lobby Lambeth/Local businesses and the Police to work to solving this problem.
Without more money put into drug treatment services, mental health, education and housing nothing will change. "Designing" out crime will only displace it somewhere else.
IntoStella
12-09-2005, 17:58
I understand there was talk of a petition to do something about the problem.
You're quite right. I haven't seen it yet, though.
IntoStella
12-09-2005, 18:02
I've come very close to opening my window and telling them to shut the fuck up Hello neighbour :cool:
Not done it myself (though SORELY tempted lately) but people who have in Rushcroft have got a lot of abuse. I think you're right -- it would just make things worse.
What really disturbs me is when you hear screaming -- is it really a woman being attacked or just some crack fuelled row?
PS I really recommend earplugs -- try the wax ones called Muffles from Boots. At least then you can sleep in your own bed. :rolleyes:
Dave Mullen
12-09-2005, 18:16
Without more money put into drug treatment services, mental health, education and housing nothing will change. "Designing" out crime will only displace it somewhere else.
I agree. I wasn't trying to imply that that was the only solution. Govt policy lately (I think) has been to evict drug users and dealers from their flats which only displaces the problem onto the streets.
Stobart Stopper
12-09-2005, 19:48
You lot should move east to Redbridge if the crackheads are getting to you.All you get here is chavs burning down your shed. The odd punch up on a Friday night down the Maypole. Nice forest up the road, Sarfend is only 40 minutes away. You can even leave your car unlocked all night around here.
Without more money put into drug treatment services, mental health, education and housing nothing will change. "Designing" out crime will only displace it somewhere else.
But wouldn't displacing it away from residential streets where people are trying to sleep be a slight improvement?
Johnny Canuck2
13-09-2005, 05:04
After a gig at the Academy recently, I had to step over some glaze-eyed guys smoking on the steps going up to the south-bound platform at Brixton station. All three of them were puffing away at glass pipes and there was an acrid smell in the air. Unbelievable.
They didn't even seem to notice me. :eek: :eek: :eek:
That's interesting. Around here, the crackheads seem to be constantly moving. I don't think I've ever seen one still.
Mrs Magpie
13-09-2005, 07:15
There have always been drug users at rock bottom in my adulthood, the reason they are on the streets now is lack of squats. When I first came to Brixton the council block I was living in was well over half unoccupied. There were loads of squatters then, mostly absolutely fine, but there were also plenty of nihilist addicts too.
But wouldn't displacing it away from residential streets where people are trying to sleep be a slight improvement?
Displace it to where exactly?
top_biller
13-09-2005, 11:06
Hello neighbour :cool:
Not done it myself (though SORELY tempted lately) but people who have in Rushcroft have got a lot of abuse. I think you're right -- it would just make things worse.
What really disturbs me is when you hear screaming -- is it really a woman being attacked or just some crack fuelled row?
PS I really recommend earplugs -- try the wax ones called Muffles from Boots. At least then you can sleep in your own bed. :rolleyes:
Hello there. I sometimes hope that if one person told them to shut up and go home, a few more might open their windows and give them a torrent as well. Strength in numbers and all that. Doubt it though. Alternatively, I've got a great line of sight if I could get my hands on a high calibre telescopic sniper rifle. ;) :D
Agree about the screaming. I usually assume an argument over the last rock. I remember a few months back being woken about 4 by someone shouting for someone to call the police cause he was getting mugged. Duly did and no-one came. Seen some strange goings on in that road.
Last night was relatively quiet. Still the same hive of activity up by the library though. I've thought about getting plugs but worried I might sleep blissfully through my alarm.... :rolleyes:
linerider
13-09-2005, 12:08
Displace it to where exactly?
how about coldharbour lane?,there's a bit of space outside house of bottles
:rolleyes:
Red Faction
13-09-2005, 12:40
I've come very close to opening my window and telling them to shut the fuck up but I imagine it would have the opposite effect.
you need a bb gun or sumthin like that
otherwise they'll just ignore u
gaijingirl
13-09-2005, 13:16
Hmmm... I'm not sure that shooting any kind of gun BB or otherwise at crackheads out of one's window is the wisest move.. :D
memespring
13-09-2005, 14:38
There is a major problem at the moment and it's getting worse.
If I set up an email list to comeup with ideas with how to deal with it, would anyone be interested in signing up? We could get a couple of police on it and let them know the scale of the problem. Much more effective than a petition.
I live just of the market and generally and me and my neighbours have to evict about 4 crackheads each weekend from the alley at the back of our flats. (Generally followed by a volley of abuse and threats, leaving a nice selection of turds and paraphernalia behind them). And thats only the ones we catch.
The thing I dont understand is why the police are unable to deal with it. The same people are smoking and dealing in the same places.
The thing I dont understand is why the police are unable to deal with it. The same people are smoking and dealing in the same places.
I've wondered much the same.
I've wondered much the same.
I think it takes a fair amount of resources to catch people - and the users typically aren't worth catching since they won't be sent to jail for drug use (and neither should they be) - because you need to film people selling repeatedly to get a conviction. This does happen - for instance when they do one of the periodic crackdowns on CHL - but a side effect is displacement into the neighbouring areas... :(
It's a pity someone can't just go out and shoot a whole load of them. Then they wouldn't be "displaced" to go and shit on someone else's doorstep.
It's a pity someone can't just go out and shoot a whole load of them. Then they wouldn't be "displaced" to go and shit on someone else's doorstep.
Very constructive.
On a happier note I've just realised that if I got a vegetable box delivered then it would sit in my garden. Where the crackheads would eat them. Win win - if they don't I eat more healthily. If they eat my vegetables I feel good about improving their health.
<smug>
memespring
13-09-2005, 15:30
It's a pity someone can't just go out and shoot a whole load of them. Then they wouldn't be "displaced" to go and shit on someone else's doorstep.
Bit of a Daily Mail solution! I dont think being a crackhead is a path many people take out of choice.
Displacement is an issue, but not an argument to do nothing. It should be about making fast lowcost changes wherever there is a problem. e.g. If soemone boarded up the doorways into Brady's people wouldnt be able to deal there anymore.
top_biller
13-09-2005, 16:24
Bit of a Daily Mail solution! I dont think being a crackhead is a path many people take out of choice.
Displacement is an issue, but not an argument to do nothing. It should be about making fast lowcost changes wherever there is a problem. e.g. If soemone boarded up the doorways into Brady's people wouldnt be able to deal there anymore.
...or put the library/Ritzy fire exit doors flush with the wall. WHY THE RECESS? WHY? I'd love to get hold of the architect who designed that feature and ask if he envisaged it as a handy toke spot cum urinal.
Then put some some low spikes on the wall that runs down each block (I've always liked the jagged bits of glass you see cemented in, that would mess with the high). Nothing too harsh, just so you can't sit down.
Harpoon turrets on the roof and its job done.
...or put the library/Ritzy fire exit doors flush with the wall. WHY THE RECESS? WHY? I'd love to get hold of the architect who designed that feature and ask if he envisaged it as a handy toke spot cum urinal.
Then put some some low spikes on the wall that runs down each block (I've always liked the jagged bits of glass you see cemented in, that would mess with the high). Nothing too harsh, just so you can't sit down.
Harpoon turrets on the roof and its job done.
You could probably simply lobby the Ritzy directly to change the configuration of their doors - it probably wouldn't cost much and I suspect they are the sort of company that would value the opinions of their neighbours.
memespring
13-09-2005, 16:35
You could probably simply lobby the Ritzy directly to change the configuration of their doors - it probably wouldn't cost much and I suspect they are the sort of company that would value the opinions of their neighbours.
Thats sort of why I suggested a mailing list - if you have 50 + people lobbying the ritzy you'd probably get further than doing it on your own.
Thats sort of why I suggested a mailing list - if you have 50 + people lobbying the ritzy you'd probably get further than doing it on your own.
Good point. I nominate you to run it! I'll pm you my email. :)
memespring
13-09-2005, 16:46
Good point. I nominate you to run it! I'll pm you my email. :)
I'll run it if we can get 25 people to sign up including a policeman and a councillor. Sign up here people :)
http://www.pledgebank.com/brixton
...or put the library/Ritzy fire exit doors flush with the wall. WHY THE RECESS? WHY?
Because fire exit doors can never open directly onto a pavement, the door swings could easily hit someone or, more seriously, be blocked by something. It's the law!
As a result, buildings everywhere have fire exits that are also fantastic for pissing/smoking/shooting up in.
EDIT : Unless the pavement's really wide - then you can get away with it
Because fire exit doors can never open directly onto a pavement, the door swings could easily hit someone or, more seriously, be blocked by something. It's the law!
As a result, buildings everywhere have fire exits that are also fantastic for pissing/smoking/shooting up in.
EDIT : Unless the pavement's really wide - then you can get away with it
I bet there are solutions though... can't obviously see what they are. Have signed the pledge incidentally.
It's a pity someone can't just go out and shoot a whole load of them. Then they wouldn't be "displaced" to go and shit on someone else's doorstep.
You're such a cunt. Why doesn't someone shoot you?
Johnny Canuck2
13-09-2005, 18:10
I've always wondered: these people are so obviously poor and down and out. How can they afford so damn much crack?
How much change can one person steal out of parked cars in a day?
I've always wondered: these people are so obviously poor and down and out. How can they afford so damn much crack?
How much change can one person steal out of parked cars in a day?
*Steeples fingers*
*Peers over half-moon spectacles*
If only ve coult harness zis energy!
Stobart Stopper
13-09-2005, 18:27
It's a pity someone can't just go out and shoot a whole load of them. Then they wouldn't be "displaced" to go and shit on someone else's doorstep.
They were there before the yuppies.
detective-boy
13-09-2005, 19:05
I bet there are solutions though... can't obviously see what they are. Have signed the pledge incidentally.
The answer is metal grille gates or similar which have to be locked "open" during performance but which can otherwise be locked shut, barring access to the recess. Whilst this still leaves the recess accessible for some of the time, it reduces it significantly and restricts it to times when, by definition, there is activity at the venue and staff who could be tasked to monitor / move on anyone using the recessed areas inappropriately.
Johnny Canuck2
13-09-2005, 19:07
The answer is metal grille gates or similar which have to be locked "open" during performance but which can otherwise be locked shut, barring access to the recess. Whilst this still leaves the recess accessible for some of the time, it reduces it significantly and restricts it to times when, by definition, there is activity at the venue and staff who could be tasked to monitor / move on anyone using the recessed areas inappropriately.
The problem with this solution is that lazy staff sometimes neglect or forget to unlock the grilles at the relevant times, leading to large numbers of deaths in the event of fires, etc.
detective-boy
13-09-2005, 19:11
The thing I dont understand is why the police are unable to deal with it. The same people are smoking and dealing in the same places.
Because the police do not have the answer. They only thing they can do is enforce the law - arrest, charge, bail, see imprisoned for a short time, then round and round and round again. The criminal law only treats the symptom (and does that poorly!).
They cannot do anything to reduce demand by education, to provide support to people trying to give up drugs, to provide health related interventions where necessary, etc. Other agencies (health, social services, education, charities, etc.) have roles to play but they are notoriously underesourced and even ten years after the introduction of the Crime and Disorder Act 1994, which was clearly intended to legally oblige them to assist the police in reducing crime, and often still reluctant to play their part. There is also a strong thread of reluctance to try anything which may be considered "soft on drugs" by central government. They constantly use enforcement as their only response despite clear evidence that it does not work.
You can say "What are the police doing about it?" until you are blue in the face - it will not, and cannot, make any significant difference.
phildwyer
13-09-2005, 19:15
Because the police do not have the answer. They only thing they can do is enforce the law - arrest, charge, bail, see imprisoned for a short time, then round and round and round again. The criminal law only treats the symptom (and does that poorly!).
They cannot do anything to reduce demand by education, to provide support to people trying to give up drugs, to provide health related interventions where necessary, etc. Other agencies (health, social services, education, charities, etc.) have roles to play but they are notoriously underesourced and even ten years after the introduction of the Crime and Disorder Act 1994, which was clearly intended to legally oblige them to assist the police in reducing crime, and often still reluctant to play their part. There is also a strong thread of reluctance to try anything which may be considered "soft on drugs" by central government. They constantly use enforcement as their only response despite clear evidence that it does not work.
You can say "What are the police doing about it?" until you are blue in the face - it will not, and cannot, make any significant difference.
It worked in New York, quite dramatically so.
memespring
13-09-2005, 19:37
Because the police do not have the answer. They only thing they can do is enforce the law - arrest, charge, bail, see imprisoned for a short time, then round and round and round again. The criminal law only treats the symptom (and does that poorly!).
They cannot do anything to reduce demand by education, to provide support to people trying to give up drugs, to provide health related interventions where necessary, etc. Other agencies (health, social services, education, charities, etc.) have roles to play but they are notoriously underesourced and even ten years after the introduction of the Crime and Disorder Act 1994, which was clearly intended to legally oblige them to assist the police in reducing crime, and often still reluctant to play their part. There is also a strong thread of reluctance to try anything which may be considered "soft on drugs" by central government. They constantly use enforcement as their only response despite clear evidence that it does not work.
You can say "What are the police doing about it?" until you are blue in the face - it will not, and cannot, make any significant difference.
All valid, especially about the other agencies being under resourced - believe me I wasnt suggesting arresting people as a solution in itself, that doesnt resolve the problem or do any good for those arrested. (Although it is frustraiting seeing the same people dealing/smoking/breaking into yards in the same place week in week out)
It just there seem to be alot of little things they and the other agencies could do that would add up to an improvement. Especially if they engage with people (and vise versa hence the mailing list idea).
Johnny Canuck2
13-09-2005, 19:39
It worked in New York, quite dramatically so.
What: no crackheads in New York?
phildwyer
13-09-2005, 19:41
What: no crackheads in New York?
Far, far fewer than 15 years ago. The whole atmosphere of the city changed dramatically between 92 and 96--the first 4 years of the Giuliani administration. I've never seen such a transformation. And it was aggressive policing wot done it.
memespring
13-09-2005, 19:43
And it was aggressive policing wot done it.
I dont think aggressive policing has a very good history in Brixton. :)
phildwyer
13-09-2005, 19:49
I dont think aggressive policing has a very good history in Brixton. :)
Well, it has to be *very* aggressive, as it was in New York. Not that I'm advocating it for either place--far from it--but it does work.
Johnny Canuck2
13-09-2005, 20:11
Far, far fewer than 15 years ago. The whole atmosphere of the city changed dramatically between 92 and 96--the first 4 years of the Giuliani administration. I've never seen such a transformation. And it was aggressive policing wot done it.
There was an area in this city that was straight out of Breughel. The cops finally went in there in force, and before you knew it, the streets were relatively empty. No open crack smoking on every doorstep, etc.
But what happened, is that they fanned out into other parts of the city. What used to be a fairly concentrated problem, is now spread throughout the downtown core and surrounding neighborhoods.
detective-boy
13-09-2005, 20:43
But what happened, is that they fanned out into other parts of the city. What used to be a fairly concentrated problem, is now spread throughout the downtown core and surrounding neighborhoods.
That is my point. Aggressive policing does not actually solve the problem - it may move it around, drive it underground or whatever but it does not actually solve it. A more regular police presence on the street will undoubtedly reduce the more obvious manifestations but without every other agency working together with a "joined-up" approach it will not solve the problem.
And "aggressive policing" has other, unwanted side-effects, not least of which is further dividing police and public.
electicavenue
13-09-2005, 20:45
but without every other agency working together with a "joined-up" approach it will not solve the problem.
The question then is who is it down to to do the joining up?
Johnny Canuck2
13-09-2005, 20:47
That is my point. Aggressive policing does not actually solve the problem - it may move it around, drive it underground or whatever but it does not actually solve it. A more regular police presence on the street will undoubtedly reduce the more obvious manifestations but without every other agency working together with a "joined-up" approach it will not solve the problem.
And "aggressive policing" has other, unwanted side-effects, not least of which is further dividing police and public.
I agree, but I can also recall a time when drug use was widespread, but it wasn't done on the streets, in plain sight of passersby, and you didn't get the feeling that the cops had conceded the streets to the criminals.
It's a huge societal problem, and perhaps it shouldn't be forced indoors and out of sight, but the apprehension of lawlessness that random and wholesale drug sales and use on the streets, can't be a good thing either.
detective-boy
13-09-2005, 20:58
The question then is who is it down to to do the joining up?
The only body with power over all the relevant agencies is central government. They passed the Crime and Disorder Act, they should ensure that it is applied.
detective-boy
13-09-2005, 21:00
... but the apprehension of lawlessness that random and wholesale drug sales and use on the streets, can't be a good thing either.
That is very true. One part of the New York approach which I support entirely is the "Broken Windows" theory which postulates that if you leave a broken window (for instance) then it is only a matter of time before more appear. The visible presence of drug dealers / users on the streets has a similar effect.
My point is not that it should not be addressed, nor that anyone but the police should do it, but that on it's own it cannot and will not work and eventually the police will give up, both individually and as an organisation. I believe that may be happening now.
Mrs Magpie
13-09-2005, 21:18
Also in New York, Guiliani didn't have the CPS to contend with. As I understand it, three undercover cops have to be wired up, buy drugs off street dealers on three different occasions for the CPS to even consider a prosecution, and if the dealer gets sent down, the many-headed hyrda-ness of the drugs trade means someone else just takes the gaoled dealer's place........
memespring
13-09-2005, 21:32
The only body with power over all the relevant agencies is central government. They passed the Crime and Disorder Act, they should ensure that it is applied.
Maby if I tell Kate Hoey that its foxes selling the crack she might be interested?
Bit of a Daily Mail solution! I dont think being a crackhead is a path many people take out of choice.
Displacement is an issue, but not an argument to do nothing. It should be about making fast lowcost changes wherever there is a problem. e.g. If soemone boarded up the doorways into Brady's people wouldnt be able to deal there anymore.
I don't think people start off thinking "I want to become a fucked-up addict". But once they are, they are just human rats that manage to inflict all kinds of harm on everyone around them, in terms of violent robberies, other theft and crime, general disgusting behaviour, making whole areas unsafe and unpleasant to live in. They are just one big negative. OK, in the real world, mass shooting is out of the question, but maybe they should just round them all up and take them to some sort of camp somewhere and leave them there, crackless, until they sort themselves out.
Giles..
Giles..
detective-boy
14-09-2005, 07:06
As I understand it, three undercover cops have to be wired up, buy drugs off street dealers on three different occasions for the CPS to even consider a prosecution, and if the dealer gets sent down, the many-headed hyrda-ness of the drugs trade means someone else just takes the gaoled dealer's place........
There is no actual legal requirement for this level of evidence, but the experience of the police is that for them to be pretty sure of a conviction two test purchases, followed by a third one with immediate arrest is advisable. The main problem is that even after all that the chances are they will be back on the streets within less than 12 months, the majority even sooner than that.
The laws of supply and demand make it inevitable that someone else follows them. Many street level dealers are themselves addicts, dealing to fund their own habit and it is a relatively easy way of doing so. The others are motivated by the fact that there are HUGE amounts of money to be made by dealing, compared to any legitimate employment available to them. Operation Welwyn in Kings Cross when I was there twelve years ago ran for over a year. Each phase took a couple of months and led to the arrest and conviction of something like 30 or 40 busy dealers. Every time they were replaced within days and, by the end of the third phase those arrested on the first phase were beginning to reappear. Hundreds of thousands - probably millions - of pounds worth of police, CPS, Court and prison time and resources had absolutely no real lasting effect as far as the public in the area were concerned.
Again going back to my original point, the police can, and do carry out lots of operations against street level drug dealing and use but alone they cannot have any lasting effect.
phildwyer
14-09-2005, 08:36
Operation Welwyn in Kings Cross when I was there twelve years ago ran for over a year. Each phase took a couple of months and led to the arrest and conviction of something like 30 or 40 busy dealers. Every time they were replaced within days and, by the end of the third phase those arrested on the first phase were beginning to reappear. Hundreds of thousands - probably millions - of pounds worth of police, CPS, Court and prison time and resources had absolutely no real lasting effect as far as the public in the area were concerned.
Huh? I stay in King's Cross when I'm in London, and I can tell you without a shadow of doubt that the area is *much* less skanky now than it was 10 or 15 years ago. Almost a Giuliani-style transformation, in fact. What caused that if it wasn't the policing?
don't quote me on this but here are some answers i seem to recall being given here at the ritzy to some of the issues raised in this thread.
- i believe there used to be grilles or there was talk of having grilles (is that the right spelling?) but there were objections from neighbours saying that they were too loud when being shut / put up after closing time (which is around 2am at the weekends.
- having ritzy staff move on / deal with crack takers is not really ideal. sorry, but if the police aren't dealing with it we can't really expect our staff to go and move on or engage with people in that state on a regular basis.
if you want i will get some more info on this from the ritzy.
post any questions here...
ed
IntoStella
14-09-2005, 09:22
don't quote me on this but here are some answers i seem to recall being given here at the ritzy to some of the issues raised in this thread.
- i believe there used to be grilles or there was talk of having grilles (is that the right spelling?) but there were objections from neighbours saying that they were too loud when being shut / put up after closing time (which is around 2am at the weekends.
- having ritzy staff move on / deal with crack takers is not really ideal. sorry, but if the police aren't dealing with it we can't really expect our staff to go and move on or engage with people in that state on a regular basis.
if you want i will get some more info on this from the ritzy.
post any questions here...
edThe noise of grillles being closed would be nothing compared with the crackheads yelling all night.
The biggest noise the ritzy makes is when the bar chucks its bottles out a 6 o'clock in the morning, which wakes me without fail. :mad:
I was told the reason there are no grilles is because it's against the fire regs. What if people were inside and there was a fire but someone had forgotten to unlock the grilles?
poster342002
14-09-2005, 09:23
They were there before the yuppies.
And ordinary, non-crack using, non-drug dealing Brixtoners were there before them. Not that I agree with what Giles said, mind.
And "aggressive policing" has other, unwanted side-effects, not least of which is further dividing police and public.
Didn't the crack down (sorry, couldn't thing of a more appropriate word) on the cocaine and crack dealing in the 80's by Reagan lead to higher gang tensions? And a massively increased murder rate in places like DC?
Back to Brixton though, I live further up CHL, near to Loughborough Junction station, and whilst there's nothing like the activity you poor lot have to put up with in Central Brixton, there certainly seems to be more crackheads further up the road since Operation Sleaford.
don't quote me on this but here are some answers i seem to recall being given here at the ritzy to some of the issues raised in this thread.
- i believe there used to be grilles or there was talk of having grilles (is that the right spelling?) but there were objections from neighbours saying that they were too loud when being shut / put up after closing time (which is around 2am at the weekends.
- having ritzy staff move on / deal with crack takers is not really ideal. sorry, but if the police aren't dealing with it we can't really expect our staff to go and move on or engage with people in that state on a regular basis.
if you want i will get some more info on this from the ritzy.
post any questions here...
ed
But Ritzy staff won't need to move on crack takers - all they'll have to do is simply close the grilles. Occasionally they might find somebody smoking crack there but if staff are feeling nervous they can simply come back in five minutes (or call the police).
I don't think people start off thinking "I want to become a fucked-up addict". But once they are, they are just human rats that manage to inflict all kinds of harm on everyone around them, in terms of violent robberies, other theft and crime, general disgusting behaviour, making whole areas unsafe and unpleasant to live in. They are just one big negative. OK, in the real world, mass shooting is out of the question, but maybe they should just round them all up and take them to some sort of camp somewhere and leave them there, crackless, until they sort themselves out.
Giles..
Giles..
You're a nasty piece of work. I hope we never meet.
You're a nasty piece of work. I hope we never meet.
Hopefully, he'll get a karma slap, spouting that kind of nonsense, and develop some sort of addiction, and then be left somewhere dire to "sort himself out"
Mrs Magpie
14-09-2005, 11:37
He's already got his karma slap. He's a property developer.
urbanspaceman
14-09-2005, 11:53
Val Shawcross (GLA member for Lambeth and Southwark) is interested in the drug dealing problem in central Brixton. Here's a message she sent last month:
"I spoke to police Supt David Zin Zan this week and he tells me that a
special operation has now begun in your immediate area to target dealers
and this is involving plain clothes police. There have been 8 arrests
this week. I would be very grateful if you would feed back to me if you
perceive there to be any changes in the area?
This is obviously an especially difficult time for the Met but they are
committing resources now and in the future to clamping down on dealers
and I am sure they appreciate community support.
Please let me know how things are outside your house in the evenings.
As you know I am due to meet the Borough Commander shortly and I would
like to be up to date on how things are."
I would be happy to compile and pass on other Urbanites' experiences. Please PM me or post publically (saying if you do/do not want the mesage passed on to VS). It would be very useful to know the street location and also your impressions of changes in the size and nature of these activities over time.
memespring
14-09-2005, 12:01
Val Shawcross (GLA member for Lambeth and Southwark) is interested in the drug dealing problem in central Brixton. Here's a message she sent last month:
Does anyone know her? If not I'll fax her and see if I can convince her to signup to the mailing list pledge (http://www.pledgebank.com/brixton)
couple of responses:
intostella - i will check if the bottles go out at 6am and if so see if that can't be changed. to be honest i have only ever seem them carried out in the daytime but i am not here all the time.
ritzy staff - in one of the posts it was suggested that staff get involved. was just responding to that. we have a meeting tomorrow. will bring up the issue there and post any responses i get.
ed
gaijingirl
14-09-2005, 12:57
Sorry to "dumb down" a serious post.. but what a bloody great name!!!
[QUOTE=urbanspaceman]" police Supt David Zin Zan QUOTE]
linerider
14-09-2005, 13:13
I don't think people start off thinking "I want to become a fucked-up addict". But once they are, they are just human rats that manage to inflict all kinds of harm on everyone around them, in terms of violent robberies, other theft and crime, general disgusting behaviour, making whole areas unsafe and unpleasant to live in. They are just one big negative. OK, in the real world, mass shooting is out of the question, but maybe they should just round them all up and take them to some sort of camp somewhere and leave them there, crackless, until they sort themselves out.
Giles..
Giles..
rounding people up and taking them to camps-what an original idea.
maybe we could call it the ultimate answer or even the final solution
what a wanker
top_biller
14-09-2005, 13:15
And "aggressive policing" has other, unwanted side-effects, not least of which is further dividing police and public.
I think it actually only divides police and the criminal. Or police and those members of the public that resent civilised order. Although I understand your point of course, I doubt you'd see me and Intostella picketing Brixton police station because we were continually having to cross the road to get out of the way of yet another crack arrest.
I'd go with the three strikes and you're out rule. Obviously that has consequences for the penal system but the law is there for a reason. Get some decent sentencing guidelines to the judiciary, plough a fraction of the defence budget into prison building (I'm thinking the Dome as good starting point) with capital punishment mandatory for a fourth offence, thereby negating the "offender replacement" theory for at least fifteen or so years.
I am, of course, joking with my last point.
I appreciate there are health and safety guidelines for the fire escapes, but there must be a solution.
I leave you to ponder the image of a stampede of cinema goers fleeing a false fire alarm at the Ritzy only to crush six crack heads as the three heavy doors are swung open.
gaijingirl
14-09-2005, 13:30
I leave you to ponder the image of a stampede of cinema goers fleeing a false fire alarm at the Ritzy only to crush six crack heads as the three heavy doors are swung open. :D Whilst discussing the finer points of the latest Dogme release... :D
Mrs Magpie
14-09-2005, 13:33
I think it actually only divides police and the criminal.I disagree. I'm not a criminal but I've been on the sharp end of aggressive policing. It can permeate into all levels of contact with the public. Because I can appreciate the bigger picture it hasn't stopped me being a witness etc, but it easily could have.
top_biller
14-09-2005, 13:43
I disagree. I'm not a criminal but I've been on the sharp end of aggressive policing. It can permeate into all levels of contact with the public. Because I can appreciate the bigger picture it hasn't stopped me being a witness etc, but it easily could have.
Obviously without knowing the circumstances, I can't comment, but from personal experience i.e having never had any detrimental experience with the police and talking in terms of the subject matter on this thread, crack use in central Brixton and in particular on my road, I'd have no problem with some more attention being paid to those individuals who are perpetrating the incidents that we're all complaining about.
Mrs Magpie
14-09-2005, 13:59
In reply to top biller
Having my door and door frame smashed out of the wall during an armed raid where they'd actually run past the flat they were meant to be raiding and did our place over by accident. Big apologies afterwards, but they traumatised one of my kids badly.
Being accused of being difficult and obstructive and lying after a murder happened in my block by saying I wasn't actually in Brixton when it happened, which was true and proveable.
Being aggressively stopped and searched on my way to work and called a dyke.
Being threatened with arrest and sworn at when I proffered myself as a witness after a nasty assault (I was a bystander and didn't know any of those involved).
All these incidents have happened to me in Brixton.
Mrs Magpie
14-09-2005, 14:00
btw, I'm not anti-police, and realise all these incidents were caused by individuals who probably shouldn't be working with the public and do not represent the police as a whole.
linerider
14-09-2005, 14:03
i'm not in favour of aggessive policing,but more visable policing might be a start.
i was walking down rushcroft the other morning at about 2am and dispite being over 6ft and over 20 stone,i felt quite intimidated with a big group of crackheads in the ritzy fire escapes and about 8-10 more on the other side of the road.
lets face it,the problem isn't going to go away overnight,but maybe it could be moved/pushed somewhere non residential.
top_biller
14-09-2005, 14:18
In reply to top biller
Having my door and door frame smashed out of the wall during an armed raid where they'd actually run past the flat they were meant to be raiding and did our place over by accident. Big apologies afterwards, but they traumatised one of my kids badly.
Being accused of being difficult and obstructive and lying after a murder happened in my block by saying I wasn't actually in Brixton when it happened, which was true and proveable.
Being aggressively stopped and searched on my way to work and called a dyke.
Being threatened with arrest and sworn at when I proffered myself as a witness after a nasty assault (I was a bystander and didn't know any of those involved).
All these incidents have happened to me in Brixton.
Clearly all of those incidents (with the possible exception of the armed raid damage as it was an accident) are totally unnaceptable and also constitute serious breaches of the PACE guidelines. I can understand your position. I hope you reported the individuals concerned.
lets face it,the problem isn't going to go away overnight,but maybe it could be moved/pushed somewhere non residential.
but it was in a non-residential area before! or at least less residential... it's only when the crackdown happened on CHL/trinity gardens that they've moved elsewhere.
detective-boy
14-09-2005, 14:28
Huh? I stay in King's Cross when I'm in London, and I can tell you without a shadow of doubt that the area is *much* less skanky now than it was 10 or 15 years ago. Almost a Giuliani-style transformation, in fact. What caused that if it wasn't the policing?
It's a long time since I worked there but I am aware of local drug user support initiatives which were introduced and, probably more significantly, the closure / redevelopment of many of the seedy hotels in the roads round the back opposite the station which had attracted prostitutes and all their associated hangers on. There has been significant spending on street lighting, CCTV and various other initiatives by the two local authorities (Camden and Islington) and by the railway bodies responsible for Kings Cross and St Pancras Stations.
Yes the police have been involved. No, policing alone has not made the difference you have noted.
linerider
14-09-2005, 14:31
but it was in a non-residential area before! or at least less residential... it's only when the crackdown happened on CHL/trinity gardens that they've moved elsewhere.
this is the problem with drug policy in general,no-one ever seems to notice that every time the police target one area it moves to somewhere else.:rolleyes:
detective-boy
14-09-2005, 14:36
I think it actually only divides police and the criminal. Or police and those members of the public that resent civilised order.
In practice "aggressive policing" means that less serious "criminals" are treated more harshly (cf. the criticism of the street drinkers being "harrassed" on other threads), hence alienating them and it also means that more police activity based on suspicion is carried out (stop / searches, etc.) which inevitably involves innocent people being inconvenienced, hence alienating them.
As "criminals" don't wear badges there is no way of ensuring that only they receive the impact of any additional policing.
Mrs Magpie
14-09-2005, 14:46
tbh, I think any atttempt at sorting out the drugs trade is doomed to be a failure unless drugs come under some sort of state control, eg, legalised drugs available free through clinics in exchange for attending life skills training or something. I reckon it would pay for itself just through the reduction of related crime.
memespring
14-09-2005, 15:19
tbh, I think any atttempt at sorting out the drugs trade is doomed to be a failure unless drugs come under some sort of state control, eg, legalised drugs available free through clinics in exchange for attending life skills training or something. I reckon it would pay for itself just through the reduction of related crime.
Talkingof clinics, whats the current status of the (badly needed) proposed drug treatment centre? Last thing I heard there was Nimbi pressure to move it well out of Brixton (and therefore well away from those needing treatment)
The only people who score by the libraray/market/chl are already so fucked up, reasoning shouting etc wont work. If you really dont care who sees you having a hit, knowing the residents are fucked off will make No difference
Moving them on essentially means they move back the Stockweel Pk estate- where they still go to score- its an interesting exercise to sit on wall almost anywhere in there, teams of limping geezers go to stair wells, hang about for five mins, then re-appear in big hurry. It seems than none of our posters live there, I'm sure there would be a lot more said about that if there were
All of the proffessional type dealers, either freelance or part of some gang, have mobiles, all can travel anywhere in the area, even some of the street Yardies will do that
This is a highly organised, violent industry
It almost entirely, in Brixton at least, run by Jamaicans
The majority of their "runners" are Spanish/Portuguese with the occaisonal Italian and white British
Personally, I'd take out the runners first
These are the guys the dealers can
A Bully
B Keep sweet with the odd freebie/credit
The runner picks up the drugs, holds them for a brief time, then hands them to the buyer - at that time he/she is vulnerable. They may not get locked up for it for long, BUT, after a number of times they can be
A Locked up
B reffered for treatment
More than anything else it makes the dealers HAVE to deal with a nuber of people they are less sure of, ie under cover cops which may actually mean some of them get locked up. Keep that kind of thing up for long enough you will actually take out the strret dealers
It still doesn't deal with you mobile delivery guys, but there are crack/smack mobile delivery servs all over london- for that you need GCHQ motiroring all calls with sophisticated pattern recognition software - something most of us would be up in arms against - I mean all kinds of things might come out, eh>
The cops are reluctant to deal with this as they know many of these guys are armed and dont give a fuck - not any easy enemy to face, BUT, yer runners are not
Its a chain, you have to focus on the weakest link
"Talkingof clinics, whats the current status of the (badly needed) proposed drug treatment centre? Last thing I heard there was Nimbi pressure to move it well out of Brixton (and therefore well away from those needing treatment"
Yep, getting leaflets thru the door as I write
Odd really, would you rather have the used spike swapped for new ones inside a building, or thown down by your front door?
phildwyer
14-09-2005, 15:29
It's a long time since I worked there but I am aware of local drug user support initiatives which were introduced and, probably more significantly, the closure / redevelopment of many of the seedy hotels in the roads round the back opposite the station which had attracted prostitutes and all their associated hangers on. There has been significant spending on street lighting, CCTV and various other initiatives by the two local authorities (Camden and Islington) and by the railway bodies responsible for Kings Cross and St Pancras Stations.
Yes the police have been involved. No, policing alone has not made the difference you have noted.
I suppose the British Library and the new Eurostar Terminal have made a big difference in King's Cross too. But I also recall a 24-hour police substation with a big one-way mirror like they have in customs halls being there for some months. I suppose none of these are about to happen in Brixton though.
tarannau
14-09-2005, 15:41
Obviously without knowing the circumstances, I can't comment, but from personal experience i.e having never had any detrimental experience with the police and talking in terms of the subject matter on this thread, crack use in central Brixton and in particular on my road, I'd have no problem with some more attention being paid to those individuals who are perpetrating the incidents that we're all complaining about.
Total agreement with Mrs Magpie I'm afraid. I haven't any criminal convictions either but, like a hell of a lot of folks in Brixton, have grown up with a healthy distrust of the police based on their actions. I'll spare you the Ms M style list of police 'transgressions' for the moment, but rest assured I'm far from unusual in my grievances - I know plenty of people who have experienced far worse treatment than me at their hands (and consequently have a far worse opinion of the police than I do)
Strangely enough, I reckon the police have made some progress in improving community relations of late, largely through using their discretion and listening more to others. Giving a green light for officers to be less tolerant and enforce the letter of the law with even more vigour seems a recipe for disaster in my book.
OT but Detective Boy's posting on this thread has reminded me of how much U75 has improved my perception of the police. Like Mrs M I had had a few unpleasant experiences in the past with the police - people like Detective Boy remind me there are good guys in the police too.
Mrs Magpie
14-09-2005, 16:19
Your post will make the ACAB contingent wail and gnash their teeth, Bob!
Mrs Magpie
14-09-2005, 16:19
btw, DB is no longer in the Met, but iirc, he trains them!
Your post will make the ACAB contingent wail and gnash their teeth, Bob!
ACAB? :confused:
Mrs Magpie
14-09-2005, 16:25
An acronym for All Coppers Are Bastards
ACAB? :confused:
Have it tattoed across your knuckles if you want to ensure a good kicking everytime you get nicked ;)
Mrs Magpie
14-09-2005, 16:27
Something I've seen tattooed on knuckles as a variation of the LOVE HATE theme.
< edited to add for Belushi >
SNAP!
An acronym for All Coppers Are Bastards
:)
top_biller
14-09-2005, 16:49
[QUOTE=tarannau]Total agreement with Mrs Magpie I'm afraid. I haven't any criminal convictions either but, like a hell of a lot of folks in Brixton, have grown up with a healthy distrust of the police based on their actions. I'll spare you the Ms M style list of police 'transgressions' for the moment, but rest assured I'm far from unusual in my grievances - I know plenty of people who have experienced far worse treatment than me at their hands (and consequently have a far worse opinion of the police than I do)
QUOTE]
Fair enough. I'm not blinkered to the situation. But having not experienced any police actions to give rise to an adverse opinion, I don't have one. I feel re-assured when I see a police patrol passing by. The only contact with police in the last 12 months was having witnessed a particularly violent racist assault on a guy on Lordship Lane in Dulwich shortly after the bombings. The police were efficient, friendly and genuine. They've even kept me informed by post of the progress of the prosecution.
So its each to their own I suppose, I imagine for every positive experience there's a negative one.
top_biller
14-09-2005, 17:00
In practice "aggressive policing" means that less serious "criminals" are treated more harshly (cf. the criticism of the street drinkers being "harrassed" on other threads), hence alienating them and it also means that more police activity based on suspicion is carried out (stop / searches, etc.) which inevitably involves innocent people being inconvenienced, hence alienating them.
As "criminals" don't wear badges there is no way of ensuring that only they receive the impact of any additional policing.
Understood. But surely there is more suspicion on a group of people congregating outside a well known crack spot at the top of Rushcroft than there is on a group chatting outside a property, say, on Helix road. Surely without the police acting on suspicion of crime, a huge amount of crime would go undetected. I get searched every time I board a flight despite the chances of me being a terrorist are extremely minimal, however its in the interests of prevention. I really don't mind a preventative approach.
I absolutely defer to your experience and am quite prepared to accept that there are flaws in my argument, but surely police are experienced enough to make a value judgement on who arouses suspicion and who doesn't.
Mrs Magpie
14-09-2005, 17:02
I've had positive experiences too top biller, and as I say I'm not anti-police, any more than a bloke slapping my arse would make me rabidly anti-men.
detective-boy
14-09-2005, 17:04
I absolutely defer to your experience and am quite prepared to accept that there are flaws in my argument, but surely police are experienced enough to make a value judgement on who arouses suspicion and who doesn't.
They do, but a very large number of people take the view "I haven't done anything, how dare you suspect me of something". The concept of "suspicion" seems to evade them!
And sadly the attitude of too many coppers does little to improve the situation! :(
tarannau
14-09-2005, 17:28
I absolutely defer to your experience and am quite prepared to accept that there are flaws in my argument, but surely police are experienced enough to make a value judgement on who arouses suspicion and who doesn't.
I think you're being a bit optimistic about the police there. It's not exactly the most diverse of organisations - indeed you could argue that the police's 'value judgements' have been found to be institutionally racist, even recently.
Bitter experience of the SUS laws, coupled with the continued disproportionate number of ethnic minorities citizens stopped seem to suggest that we've some way to go before we can trust the force at face value.
Not all police are bastards by any means, but to credit the bulk of force with the sensitivity and experience to effectively action zero tolerance policies would be a step too far imo.
Because the police do not have the answer. They only thing they can do is enforce the law - arrest, charge, bail, see imprisoned for a short time, then round and round and round again. The criminal law only treats the symptom (and does that poorly!).Isn't the penalty for breaching an ASBO up to 5 years in jail?
IntoStella
15-09-2005, 09:01
Fuck me, it was Non-Stop Crackhead Party last night. Couldn't find my earplugs and barely slept a wink.
Was fantasising about constructing a catapult and pelting them with cat shit.
:(
thestraightman
15-09-2005, 10:54
Im sure its not just the crack, go to Ulan batar and they'll be areas full of drunks where you have to watch yourself at night. City living is like being at a long party, you'll get some casualties who'll get clonted and piss on your Sofa :mad: Brixton would't be Brixton withouth the occasional accident, c'mon now, you could live on Clapham High Street. You can't have the sex without the violence, just look at Bruce willis.
memespring
15-09-2005, 12:15
I had a thought about displacement of dealing earlier.
Town centres are probably the favoured patch for dealers for the same reasons that, if Starbucks opened in brixton (god forbid!!) they would choose the town centre over the outskirts of town. More people to sell to, transport links, exposure to potentual new users etc.
If that is the case you could make an argument for focusing on displacement from the 'best' dealing locations, as it would make it less convenient (albeit only slightly) to buy drugs.
Not sure I'd want crack dealers intentionally displaced to me though.
poster342002
15-09-2005, 12:29
Fuck me, it was Non-Stop Crackhead Party last night. Couldn't find my earplugs and barely slept a wink.
I've often noticed that incidents of antisocial behaviour of all types always seems to go through the roof whenever the weather warms up by as little as 2 degrees oC. :mad: :(
William of Walworth
15-09-2005, 14:38
I've often noticed that incidents of antisocial behaviour of all types always seems to go through the roof whenever the weather warms up by as little as 2 degrees oC. :mad: :(
But you don't like summer anyway, so you're biased ...
Problems from crack and crackheads -- all down to the fact that we had a halfway decent weather for parts of this summer!!! :p
top_biller
16-09-2005, 00:16
Eerily quiet on Rushcroft.
One good thing about ne'er-do-wells is that they never carry a sensible sweater.
I'll run it if we can get 25 people to sign up including a policeman and a councillor. Sign up here people :)
http://www.pledgebank.com/brixton
Just to point out that the councillor responsible for community safety Darren Saunders has signed the pledge. Sign up if you haven't - 7 people have so far - we need 18 more...
hammerntongues
16-09-2005, 09:51
Eerily quiet on Rushcroft.
One good thing about ne'er-do-wells is that they never carry a sensible sweater.
it was worth reading the entire thread for this :D
sorry guys it sounds really shitty , I shall never complain again when the birds outside my window wake me up in the morning.
detective-boy
17-09-2005, 10:45
Isn't the penalty for breaching an ASBO up to 5 years in jail?
Yep ... but "up to" are the most important words, you'd really have to be going some to get more than a few months.
maybe someone can explain this to me... if u have an ASBO to stay away from a particular bldg... how do they enforce it? is there a policeman always standing/ keeping guard?
Presumably the people who were pissed off with you in the first place and complained to the council/police will do so again.
citydreams
17-09-2005, 15:13
Just to point out that the councillor responsible for community safety Darren Saunders has signed the pledge. Sign up if you haven't - 7 people have so far - we need 18 more...
Just done.
detective-boy
17-09-2005, 15:33
maybe someone can explain this to me... if u have an ASBO to stay away from a particular bldg... how do they enforce it? is there a policeman always standing/ keeping guard?
No. The details are circulated (locally, to affected areas or nationally depending on the nature of the order) using local intelligence systems or police national computer.
If the subject is stopped and spoken to (and gives the right name or is known) and is in breach then it should come to light (but the communication process is less that 100% effective! :( )
Usually it comes to light by the affected victim(s) or their neighbours reporting any breach and the police either responding immediately or with a slower time investigation.
so it's kind of pointless, really... the victim has to strike again for the police to intervene.
top_biller
18-09-2005, 09:42
Having had my lie in ruined by someone repeatedly shouting "Do you want a drink?" at the top of their voice for 15 minutes I just peered out the window to see some woman dealing to, then smoking a crack pipe with, the aggressive "Gimme five pee, gimme five pee" bloke from the the top of CHL. Those five pee's soon add up by the look of it.
"Easy like Sunday morning......"
BrixiSteve
19-09-2005, 11:06
I was told the reason there are no grilles is because it's against the fire regs. What if people were inside and there was a fire but someone had forgotten to unlock the grilles?
Surly the thing is not to forget.....! I have worked front of house in many theatres and there is usually a 'fireman' on duty all day, right untill the last member of staff has left. His job was to unchain all the fire exits before the public enter. After the show, once all the public areas had been checked and found to be empty, all the chains went on again.
I do think it's important to have a person who's sole duty is fire safety though. Before moving to London I worked as a tour guide in a statley home in Wales. One day, half way through a tour the fire alarm went off, I was in a rather ioslated part of the house with about 40 members of the public. However, I knew the layout of this house very well and so didn't have too much fear in me as I lead them to the nearest exit....... well, when I got there it was locked.....! I was so fucking angry and more than a little anxious. Anyway, thankfully it was a false alarm. Made me think though....! :eek:
IntoStella
19-09-2005, 11:22
I do think it's important to have a person who's sole duty is fire safety though. I suspect you've go to the heart of the problem there. The Ritzy presumably doesn't employ a full time fire officer because it considers it too expensive, so residents suffer because of its fire escape arrangement.
top_biller
19-09-2005, 12:40
Did you enjoy last night's Rushcroft entertainment Intostella?
I enjoyed another night on the sofa.
IntoStella
19-09-2005, 12:44
Did you enjoy last night's Rushcroft entertainment Intostella?
I enjoyed another night on the sofa. Mufflers, matey. They work a treat.
In fact the (totally fucking bonkers amount of) noise last night was enough to cut through Boots' best earplugs and I was in any case awoken at about 2.30, when one of them fell out. Getting back to sleep was not easy.
IntoStella
21-09-2005, 09:44
Good news at last.
Thought it was quiet last night; came out to find a huge great Met mobile surveillance unit at the end of the street, bristling with cameras.
Can we keep it? Oh pleeeeeeeeease? The minute they take it away the problem will return.
BTW Tony from HoB tells me there is a meeting between local businesses, residents and the police scheduled for September 27. Hope top biller, memespring and others will come. I will post up more info on this as and when.
It is critical that we make the full force of our dissatisfaction known.
memespring
21-09-2005, 10:41
BTW Tony from HoB tells me there is a meeting between local businesses, residents and the police scheduled for September 27. Hope top biller, memespring and others will come. I will post up more info on this as and when.
I'll come (Ive given up drinking for the month and need some non pub related things to do in the evening). I can probably rustle up a couple of others too.
We've taken to a sort of evening sentry duty in Electric Alley this week to stop people trying to break in. It seems like a couple of people are trying to set it up as their dealing HQ.
Sorry if it seems like I only complain on this forum - I do like Brixton Really :)
IntoStella
21-09-2005, 10:47
I'll come (Ive given up drinking for the month and need some non pub related things to do in the evening). I can probably rustle up a couple of others too.
We've taken to a sort of evening sentry duty in Electric Alley this week to stop people trying to break in. It seems like a couple of people are trying to set it up as their dealing HQ.
Sorry if it seems like I only complain on this forum - I do like Brixton Really :) Don't worry. Things have been absolutely billy bonkers lately and I am not surprised people feel the need to guard their property. God knows the police haven't been doing much. Please do come and tell the meeting that you and your neighbours are having to resort to these extreme measures.
memespring
21-09-2005, 10:58
Don't worry. Things have been absolutely billy bonkers lately and I am not surprised people feel the need to guard their property. God knows the police haven't been doing much. Please do come and tell the meeting that you and your neighbours are having to resort to these extreme measures.
Its not really protecting property so much as trying to reclaim the space for the people who live there rather than those who want to use it to sell/take crack.
People breaking into the flats hasnt been an issue for a long time. Generally (although not always) the crackheads are amiable - one even said to a neighbor "Dont worry we wont hurt you love, your local"
How much it would take to tip it so breakins did start though is another question.
top_biller
21-09-2005, 11:22
I'll come down, let me know the details. Passed a couple of police walking down Rushcroft this morning, which is a first.
As for the Met surveillance, they'd have to pick the night that I was so drunk I'd have slept through anything. Sheesh.
IntoStella
21-09-2005, 12:06
I'll come down, let me know the details. Passed a couple of police walking down Rushcroft this morning, which is a first.
As for the Met surveillance, they'd have to pick the night that I was so drunk I'd have slept through anything. Sheesh.
Me too. :o. In fact before I went out this morning I was thinking: 'was it quiet last night or was I just blotto?' A bit of both, I think. :o
I really hope the police unit is going to be around for a while. There was all kinds of crack paraphernalia aound our front door yesterday.
urbanspaceman
21-09-2005, 14:56
I've been in correspondence with Superintendent David Zinzan, who is responsible for Brixton. Below is his response which I received today, after writing to him about the situation in Tate Gardens/Rushcroft Road/Windrush Square, and inter alia, recommending that he read this very thread.
If anyone who lives in the area in question would like to PM me, I'll be happy to let you know when the meeting he mentions is scheduled to happen, so that you can come along too.
===========================================
Dear Mr ---,
I am also concerned with the increase in dealer activity in Rushcroft Road.. The success we have had in crack houses and other operations has, I believe, led to a displacement to this particular area. I agree that a long-term solution needs to be found. Starting on the 26th September I have altered my Town Centre Team's hours to make them work night duty for a two week period. This will result in a noticeable difference and officers will be targeting dealers and those who are anti-social. The Town Centre is a 24/7 environment and staff do work unsocial hours to deal with the many events that occur at the Mass and the Academy. I accept that ideally I would have a large number of officers in the Town Centre 24 hours a day. However I also have to Police the rest of Brixton and respond to the many incidents that are reported each day. We are targeting dealers and have recently concluded operations in the Stockwell Park Estate, Brixton Market and Coldharbour Lane. A major operation targeting Class A dealers within Brixton area is currently being conducted.
I know all of the above will be of little consolation to you as a concerned resident. I want to reassure you that we do take your issues seriously. Overall crime within Brixton is falling. There have been steady reductions in burglary, robbery and motor vehicle crime over the past 3 years. We are targeting terrorism, domestic violence and assaults. 3 Safer neighbourhood community teams have been created and more are to follow in the next 12 months.
I have copied this to my Chief Inspector Operations, who I will ask to contact you to arrange a face to face meeting.
memespring
21-09-2005, 15:01
A gentle nudge about this too : http://www.pledgebank.com/brixton
Half way there so far. It could prove a usefull way of keeping track of the situation.
top_biller
22-09-2005, 08:42
That mobile surveillance unit is making all the difference - another quiet night. Hope it stays!
memespring
22-09-2005, 08:44
Four or five people tried to barge their way into the yard this morning as my girlfriend tried to leave for work.
She managed to stop them, but by the time I left (15 minutes later) a group of people (assuming the same ones) had broken through the gate and were sitting at the end of the alley smoking crack.
I phoned Lambeth police but got that tone of voice that said "sorry mate, were arent interested in this one." :mad:
Four or five people tried to barge their way into the yard this morning as my girlfriend tried to leave for work.
She managed to stop them, but by the time I left (15 minutes later) a group of people (assuming the same ones) had broken through the gate and were sitting at the end of the alley smoking crack.
It wasn't Kate Moss and Pete Doherty by any chance, was it? ;)
Giles..
IntoStella
22-09-2005, 10:18
That mobile surveillance unit is making all the difference - another quiet night. Hope it stays!
You're kidding. :eek:
I had to call the cops at 10 past six this morning after a violent altercation broke out -- smashing glass, screaming, etc. The operator said another call had already been put in. I wondered if it was you. Obviously not! :D. Pissed again? :p :D
But it was blissfully quiet up until then, admittedly.
IntoStella
22-09-2005, 12:13
I phoned Lambeth police but got that tone of voice that said "sorry mate, were arent interested in this one." :mad:
That is absolutely unacceptable and if that is the case then they urgently need a rocket up their arse.
:mad:
Have you considered writing to the SLP about it? I think it would be well worthwhile.
top_biller
22-09-2005, 12:48
You're kidding. :eek:
I had to call the cops at 10 past six this morning after a violent altercation broke out -- smashing glass, screaming, etc. The operator said another call had already been put in. I wondered if it was you. Obviously not! :D. Pissed again? :p :D
But it was blissfully quiet up until then, admittedly.
Really?? I did vaguely hear something whilst half-asleep this morning, to be honest, I was so enjoying my first proper kip for ages I'd have slept through anything. :D
memespring
22-09-2005, 12:52
SLP about it?
Who they?
(To be fair I dont know if they did come out or not in teh end. I'd be suprised though.)
urbanspaceman
22-09-2005, 12:56
That is absolutely unacceptable and if that is the case then they urgently need a rocket up their arse.
:mad:
Have you considered writing to the SLP about it? I think it would be well worthwhile.
The reporter at the SLP who covers this area is Greg Truscott. Addresses are:
newsdesk@slp.co.uk
or
crime@slp.co.uk
or try letter writing (in my experience the chances of being published are quite good):
letters@slp.co.uk
It seems that stories or letters in the local press are something that the local government and the police are quite sensitive to.
[QUOTE=urbanspaceman]We are targeting dealers and have recently concluded operations in the Stockwell Park Estate, Brixton Market and Coldharbour Lane. A major operation targeting Class A dealers within Brixton area is currently being conducted.[QUOTE]
My reading of this is that they have finished an operation in the market to target dealers etc. Am I missing something because things have gone bonkers crazy in the last 2 weeks and they are everywhere!? Things down Electric Alley have gone mental recently and we now seem to have skagheads as well as our lovely little cracky mates!
Hi everyone by the way - memespring pointed me in the direction of this thread :)
[QUOTE=urbanspaceman]We are targeting dealers and have recently concluded operations in the Stockwell Park Estate, Brixton Market and Coldharbour Lane. A major operation targeting Class A dealers within Brixton area is currently being conducted.[QUOTE]
My reading of this is that they have finished an operation in the market to target dealers etc. Am I missing something because things have gone bonkers crazy in the last 2 weeks and they are everywhere!? Things down Electric Alley have gone mental recently and we now seem to have skagheads as well as our lovely little cracky mates!
Hi everyone by the way - memespring pointed me in the direction of this thread :)
Welcome. :)
buffalosid
23-09-2005, 12:35
sounds so lovely in brixton , really trendy and dangerous. i can really understand why you would chose to live there. what a lovely place to bring up children, im sure you all sleep soundly at night.
in my opinion anyone who chooses to live in a area known for crackheads and violent street robberies only has themselves to blame when they get beat up/robbed.
oh and for the record i lived in St Pauls/Easton the Bristol equiv of Brixton but moved away after a nasty hammer attack was followed up by being burgled at gun point.
so in short if you dont like the crime dont live move there and dont live there.
so in short if you dont like the crime dont live move there and dont live there.It's not as black and white as that. People have ties to where they live and can't just up and leave and why should they anyway?
They have a right to live where they want without being mugged, etc.
sounds so lovely in brixton , really trendy and dangerous. i can really understand why you would chose to live there. what a lovely place to bring up children, im sure you all sleep soundly at night.
in my opinion anyone who chooses to live in a area known for crackheads and violent street robberies only has themselves to blame when they get beat up/robbed.
oh and for the record i lived in St Pauls/Easton the Bristol equiv of Brixton but moved away after a nasty hammer attack was followed up by being burgled at gun point.
so in short if you dont like the crime dont live move there and dont live there.
What an intelligent and insightful post.
*applause*
memespring
23-09-2005, 12:51
so in short if you dont like the crime dont live move there and dont live there.
I couldent disagree more. If you dont like the crime, you take precautions or try and do something about it.
By your logic, if crime moved into your area, you'd move straight out?
I live in Brixon because the positives far outway the negatives (and no being 'trendy' isnt one of them)
christonabike
23-09-2005, 12:51
And not everyone lives in central Brixton, it'd be right full up if we did
Twelve years on, never been mugged
buffalosid, you've stuck yer oar in when you know nothing
:)
top_biller
23-09-2005, 12:52
sounds so lovely in brixton , really trendy and dangerous. i can really understand why you would chose to live there. what a lovely place to bring up children, im sure you all sleep soundly at night.
in my opinion anyone who chooses to live in a area known for crackheads and violent street robberies only has themselves to blame when they get beat up/robbed.
oh and for the record i lived in St Pauls/Easton the Bristol equiv of Brixton but moved away after a nasty hammer attack was followed up by being burgled at gun point.
so in short if you dont like the crime dont live move there and dont live there.
What a cowardly way to approach life. Yes, yes, before you say it, you're allegedly a fire fighter. I've read your other posts and they all seem to bear the same level of malcontent and ignorance as this one.
Now perhaps you'll leave us to discuss our community issues without being forced to wade through your unhelpful drivel.
sounds so lovely in brixton , really trendy and dangerous. i can really understand why you would chose to live there. what a lovely place to bring up children, im sure you all sleep soundly at night.
in my opinion anyone who chooses to live in a area known for crackheads and violent street robberies only has themselves to blame when they get beat up/robbed.
oh and for the record i lived in St Pauls/Easton the Bristol equiv of Brixton but moved away after a nasty hammer attack was followed up by being burgled at gun point.
so in short if you dont like the crime dont live move there and dont live there.
Do you know what mate - you're absolutely right. Can't believe I didn't think of it before. When I get home tonight I'm going to start packing and move to Hampstead!:rolleyes:
That is the worst sort of unhelpful claptrap I've ever heard in my life. You may not have noticed that this is in the Brixton section. If you've got something helpful or incisive to say - fab! If you haven't, go off to the Bristol section and be a miserable West Country grouch there.
Muppet! :mad:
tarannau
23-09-2005, 13:35
sounds so lovely in brixton , really trendy and dangerous. i can really understand why you would chose to live there...
....oh and for the record i lived in St Pauls/Easton the Bristol equiv of Brixton but moved away after a nasty hammer attack was followed up by being burgled at gun point....so in short if you dont like the crime dont live move there and dont live there.
Poor quality wind-up merchant. Must try harder.
FWIW I was born around here and, after over 30 years, have never had a peep of real trouble in Brixton.
Know St Pauls well too. It's a whole lot more fragmented, divided and unloved than Brixton ever will be. Even so, your experiences sound remarkable...
Poor quality wind-up merchant. Must try harder.
Snap.
I was so relieved to get back to Brixton yesterday after five days in Blackpool. :D
top_biller
23-09-2005, 14:07
Poor quality wind-up merchant. Must try harder....
That's what I thought, until I read his/her other posts. I fear he/she quite possibly is that unintelligent.
A gentle nudge about this too : http://www.pledgebank.com/brixton
Half way there so far. It could prove a useful way of keeping track of the situation.
Almost 2/3 of the way there now. Probably worth doing a separate thread to publicise it - I'm sure there are plenty of Brixtonites who read the forum but haven't waded through this thread.
IntoStella
23-09-2005, 14:42
Details of memespring's pledge page have been emailed to a lot of people in our community in Rushcroft rd so hopefully that will up the signatory count.
Buffalosid: note the word 'community'. Look it up in the dictionary if you don't know what it means. I am part of a wonderful one that I would not give up for the world, let alone a few nuisance crackheasds.
IntoStella
23-09-2005, 14:44
Snap.
I was so relieved to get back to Brixton yesterday after five days in Blackpool. :D No shit! Stuck in Blackpol with a load of lib dems. *Shudder*. :eek:
:D
memespring
23-09-2005, 14:48
Details of memespring's pledge page have been emailed to a lot of people in our community in Rushcroft rd so hopefully that will up the signatory count.
Thanks. Does anyone know anyone in Electric Mansions who might want to sign up? I met the woman in charge of the tennents association the other week, but havnt seen her since to mention this.
I'm going to give the police some praise where it's due!
We called them yesterday when the same load of crackheads broke into the alley first thing - and they turned up mob-handed in about 10 minutes. Unfortunately the horrible little scrotes had gone by then, but it was reassuring after memespring's problems on Thursday.
Then this morning at 7.45 we got a buzz from the gate (although I wasn't very happy to be woken up ;) ). It was the police asking to be let in as the buggers were in there again - and they caught them (*applause*). They'd dumped the drugs by the time the police got down to them, but they chucked them all out, and managed to nick a couple of them for skipping bail.
The best thing is though that they've parked a police car outside the gate! We're going to have a crack-head free Saturday. Bliss :)
Maybe they'll let us keep it permanently....
Leighsw2
26-09-2005, 18:35
Many thanks to all who responded to my original message that got this thread going. I was worried that I might be over-reacting to stuff I’ve seen recently on Rushcroft Rd, but clearly I’m not alone! Also very pleased to see messages from other people on Rushcroft - I’ve lived here for 8 years and don't know the neighbours - clearly that needs to change. So what can we do about our problem? Here’s my ideas/suggestions:
time to mobilise - residents on Saltoun have been getting stroppy lately about the drug problem and I reckon those of us in Rushcroft should do the same. Saltoun have been invited to a meeting with police in early October at 'the beat' community police office on CHL. I’m hoping we can have a meeting at the same venue also in October. It’s an opportunity for Rushcroft residents to get together and talk with/lobby the local community police team and consider the practical steps we can take to tackle the crack problem. Let me know if you’re interested in attending. And memespring’s pledgepage is a great idea to create a local ‘community of interest’ around this issue, so I urge everyone to sign-up to it.
The Ritzy alcoves - isn't this the number-one problem on Rushcroft Rd? Those three alcoves are basically functioning as outdoor crack houses! Clearly, the current situation is no good for Rushcroft residents nor is it safe for Ritzy customers. I’m not interested in a blame game against the Ritzy, but some pertinent questions - (1) gates are fitted to each of the three alcoves. Why are these not closed when the Ritzy is closed? (2) I’m aware of fire regulations, but do these really stipulate that the alcoves must be five feet deep (and therefore perfect for crack smoking)? (3) Is the middle alcove even an emergency exit? It appears to be an entrance to office space.
Displacement – a problem? yes. An excuse for giving up? no. As residents and tax payers we have a right to expect that serious criminality and anti-social behaviour will be tackled. The fact that it may move elsewhere simply means that the effort to deal with it has to be mobile and responsive as well. I’m aware that there’s no simple “enforcement” solution to drugs, but wherever did the crackheads get the idea that they’re allowed to smoke crack in broad daylight only a stones throw away from Lambeth Town Hall? Like most people in this thread I’m opposed to aggressive policing, but I’m all in favour of high profile, visible policing. So – bring back regular foot-patrols please!
CCTV – not a panacea for all ills, but, as other posters have noted, the recent appearance of the mobile CCTV van next to Windrush Square did seem to make some difference last week. should we be pressing for more comprehensive, up front CCTV coverage of the area?
dealers v. users – I was interested in Supt Zinzan’s letter to Urbanspaceman that talked about the “increase in dealer activity in Rushcroft Road”. For me, dealers aren’t the problem – they’ve always been here for all the years I’ve been in Brixton and have never given me any hassle (why should they? they’re in the business of trying to sell something). The problem as far as I’m concerned is the appearance out of the woodwork in the last 12 months of very scary crack-using individuals who I don’t previously remember seeing hanging around. These are individuals with a £5-600 a week habit to maintain which, for the majority, means robbing people. I’m concerned that the police are taking a laissez faire approach to crack users (which may explain the poor response rate to 999 calls).
mending the broken windows – Detective-boy was right to mention the ‘broken windows’ hypothesis (that underpins so-called ‘zero-tolerance policing’). It’s about maintaining standards – if you let the small things go (the ‘broken windows’) then it gets harder and harder to hold the line against ever more extreme forms of anti-social behaviour. Before you know it, the whole area’s gone to hell. I reckon crack is a hugely symbolic issue for Brixton – if people are brazenly smoking crack cocaine in the street by day and night, apparently with impunity, then how can we say the area isn’t trapped in a downward spiral? Set against this powerful image, claims about falling crime statistics appear unbelievable.
Well, I’d better end this, very long, post. But thanks once again to those who joined the thread and let’s hope we can act as a community to get the crackheads out of our area!
memespring
26-09-2005, 22:13
The Ritzy alcoves
Might be nice if these (http://www.memespring.co.uk/i/lab/cracksign.png) started appearing in the alcoves (and other crack-aways)
IntoStella
27-09-2005, 11:10
Might be nice if these (http://www.memespring.co.uk/i/lab/cracksign.png) started appearing in the alcoves (and other crack-aways)
Brilliant!
lang rabbie
27-09-2005, 11:17
Is there enough space to install halogen floodlights (with armoured glass covers) as downlighters in the ceiling of each alcove?
Motion triggered downlighters would be good (or sprinklers for that matter)
top_biller
27-09-2005, 11:23
Is there enough space to install halogen floodlights (with armoured glass covers) as downlighters in the ceiling of each alcove?
I had that thought too, but upon checking they're already pretty well lit which doesn't seem to alleviate the problem. Obviously Halogens would be better though.
IntoStella
27-09-2005, 12:17
Motion triggered downlighters would be good (or sprinklers for that matter)
Sprinklers would be very satisfying indeed. :cool:
poster342002
28-09-2005, 09:06
dealers v. users For me, dealers aren’t the problem – they’ve always been here for all the years I’ve been in Brixton and have never given me any hassle (why should they? they’re in the business of trying to sell something).
Maybe - but a lot of the dealers that seemed to arrive from 1999 onwards are pretty obnoxious, imo, and may be contributing to the drug problems you set out in your (excellent, it must be said) post.
A lot of the dealing nowadays is not of the discreet kind - it consists of blokes lurching out of doorways and hanging around the bus stops going "skunk skunk skunk" in your face as you walk past. This, for me, has become a total and unwelcome pain in the arse when I'm trying to get home from the station. I doubt anyone who's lived in the area for any length of time finds this a pleasant phenomenon (particularly anyone trying to raise a family in the aea).
Personally, I have just about had it with the brazen dealing and using of drugs in the area. I've lived here for years and I've never known it to be as "in-your-face" as it's become in recent years. It's demoralising and grinds you down. It feels like the "power" of local criminals to do what they like is being waved in our faces in a sort of smug "what you going to do about it?" way.
Personally, I think both the dealers and users need to be tackled. It's gone on long enough now.
Rant over.
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