Brady's, Brixton: history, chat and plans [Archive]

IntoStella

07-09-2005, 12:14

I'd say reopening the pub as an arts-based community bar could be a winner.

Cooltan had already proved the demand for live theatre/performance art/poetry/gigs whatever and - thinking selfishly for a moment - it would be the ideal home for Offline!

There's a ton of talent in Brixton but far too few live venues. Despite its huge theatrical history, there's nothing here at all now AFAIK - an upstairs theatre at Brady's could be a real asset to the community.

As for costing, it might be an idea to talk to the previous squatters who did a great job of sorting the venue out. They did a great job but everything was done on a shoestring in a very ad hoc way.

I think this needs to be done properly, like the Raleigh Hall work. Proper surveys, feasibility studies, HLF grant applications etc.

One thing that I think should be prioritised is getting the clock tower listed. I seem to recall we have discussed this here before. If there is enough weight of local support/feeling then it should be a goer?

We also need to find out what the council is actually intending to do with it. This is never very easy with Lambeth but anything on paper should hopefully be accessible by putting in a Freedom of Information request.

Where's Rabbie? He knows all about this sort of thing.

I think the editor is pretty much right about the community bar/venue idea as a useful and realistic objective but then, of course, you've got to find out what the community really wants.

But first things first. The council may not want to co-operate at all. Depends what their plans are. We'd have to know what we were actually taking on (by getting access for a start) before setting out any realistic aims. I don't know how bad a state of disrepair it's in these days.

It is a tricky one and no mistaking.

Sorry if all this sounds overly pessimistic. It's not that I don't want to see it happen -- I passionately want to see it happen. It's just not a quick stroll in the park, that's all.

Are the talented and motivated peple of u75 up to making something happen?

IntoStella

07-09-2005, 12:16

"You can ring the Listed Buildings Information Service on 020 7208 8221 who will fax you a copy of the listing for one particular building after a three day delay. You can see lists covering your local area and obtain copies of individual entries at your local council planning department, County Council offices and most local reference libraries. The full English national list is kept by English Heritage at the National Monuments Record, Kemble Drive, Swindon SN2 2GZ."

www.heritage.co.uk I went to the planning office with AK last year to look it up and it's not listed.

kea

07-09-2005, 12:18

fair enough, just addressing citydream's questions. perhaps the first thing to do is set out what's known about it / the situation / its condition / owners / etc?

IntoStella

07-09-2005, 12:22

fair enough, just addressing citydream's questions. I wasn't being argumentative :D.

You'd be forgiven for assuming the clocktower at least was listed -- I think a lot of people do -- but it isn't. It should be. I'm sure we discussed this before with our resident Lambeth experts. Rabbie? Bob? Pooka? I can't remember. Senile. perhaps the first thing to do is set out what's known about it / the situation / its condition / owners / etc?Quite. It's a bit like finding the end of a ball of wool but far from impossible.

kea

07-09-2005, 12:24

no, i know, i was just trying to make the point that citydreams is commendably enthusiastic but perhaps needs to be brought 'up to speed' (to use management consultant speak :o ) on the current situation. (as do others who are interested, presumably - not singling them out in particular!)

flameacademy

07-09-2005, 12:24

i think you can get some of that info from The Land Regsitry - online - but costs a fiver or something...

flameacademy

07-09-2005, 12:25

Here you go

http://www.landregisteronline.gov.uk/

IntoStella

07-09-2005, 12:26

i think you can get some of that info from The Land Regsitry - online - but costs a fiver or something...
Am I right in thinking LR can do free land registry searches? I hate to admit it but I don't even have a credit/debit card. :o

If it's only 2 quid I'll reimburse somebody for doing it. In full! :D

kea

07-09-2005, 12:27

i remember him having done so in the past i think .... (i read a lot of his threads even tho i have nothing to contribute to them!!)

citydreams

07-09-2005, 12:28

citydreams

07-09-2005, 12:29

Here you go

http://www.landregisteronline.gov.uk/

Ok.. I'll give it a whirl

citydreams

07-09-2005, 12:34

:eek:

TITLE NUMBER : TGL187911
B PROPRIETORSHIP REGISTER
This register specifies the class of title and identifies the owner. It
contains any entries that affect the right of disposal.
TITLE ABSOLUTE
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 (26.04.2001) PROPRIETOR: =THE MAYOR AND BURGESSES OF THE LONDON
BOROUGH OF +LAMBETH+= of Lambeth Town Hall, Brixton, London SW2 1RW.

citydreams

07-09-2005, 12:37

IntoStella

07-09-2005, 12:40

From Brixton Central newsletter, October 2004 (unpublished)

Regeneration charity aims to save landmark

Bradys bar in Atlantic Road was loved for decades as a thriving, friendly community pub. It had an impressive reputation as a live music venue: legend has it Jimi Hendrix played there in the ’60s.
Now owned by the council, it stands empty and rotting.
Lambeth now plans to pull down this beautiful Victorian building, whose six-sided clocktower is a Brixton landmark, and build flats on the site.
A group of central Brixton residents wants to save Bradys and reopen it as a much-needed community centre and venue. It is forming a charity to attract National Lottery funding into the neighbourhood.

Vaudeville tradition
Central Brixton resident _____ _______ said: “Brixton used to have six theatres and a famous vaudeville tradition. One of my neighbours ‘trod the boards’ for 50 years.
“Yet the area has no theatre, no major community centre, no arts centre and no music school.
If local people don’t get together to provide these facilities, no-one else will.
“Large sums of lottery funding should be flowing into Brixton, which is one of the poorest neighbourhoods in Britain.”
The aim of the new charity is to avoid the mistakes made by the Brixton Challenge initiative and to establish a major charity that remains firmly under the control of local people.Ohhhh, the irony. Never mind. A year has passed and I'm raring to give it another go.

citydreams

07-09-2005, 12:42

well. I've double checked and this is supposed to be for Brady's. I can see the public house on the plans.

citydreams

07-09-2005, 12:43

Lambeth now plans to pull down this beautiful Victorian building, whose six-sided clocktower is a Brixton landmark, and build flats on the site.

Not a chance! :)

IntoStella

07-09-2005, 12:44

shit. I don't know if I've got the wrong records :(
the above is for 22 to 26 (even) Atlantic Road, land to the rear of
18 to 36 (even) Electric Avenue, and land on the
east side of Electric Lane, Brixton Yeah, that's the one.

So we know it is still definitely owned (freehold) by the council. Good. Now we need to know what their intentions are. AFAIK they want to pull it down and build new flats, but I don't have documentary proof of that.

lang rabbie

07-09-2005, 12:46

What happened to the owners?

I have a sneaking suspicion that it may be owned by Lambeth, with a housing association having an option on the site.

IIRC the (very sketchy) plans were determibed by the need to leave space for the proposed lifts/escalators to new platforms on the high level railway - now dropped by TfL.

These plans, which are the latest info from Lambeth council, make no provision for Bradys as a venue. They will involve demolishing the gig room.

"Bradys/Phase 2 -

The project comprises a mixed retail and residential development of 90,000
sq ft into the currently poor quality back area behind Brixton underground
station. The proposal includes the development of a multi-modal transport
interchange: road, rail, and underground. The Council has acquired the land
and properteis necessary to undertake the project and a development partner
has obtained planning consent. The Council has engaged with London
Undergound on the commencement of the development now that the station
improvements have reached conclusion. It is intended to incorporate the
Brady's public house into the new development as a leisure/retail
destination, retaining the facade".

"leisure/retail" in English is a shop or a small bar. It will be of no significance IMO. Perhaps some of you should also make your views known on this and save it as a venue before the demolition team move in. It would be good to save more than the facade.

Edited to add: ;) post now superfluous - that's what happens when work gets in the way of composing something on U75

IntoStella

07-09-2005, 12:48

I have a sneaking suspicion that it may be owned by Lambeth, with a housing association having an option on the site.
Any idea which HA?

kea

07-09-2005, 13:14

if you can tell me which HA, i can phone them in my 'official capacity' and ask what they want to do with it; might jolt them along or reveal something.

citydreams

07-09-2005, 13:17

A. Guinness Trust Group
020 7582 6474 Rupert House
225 Kennington Rd
London, SE11 6SU
0.2 mi N - Directions

B. Kennington Park House
020 7582 9522 Kennington Park Place
London, SE11 4JT
0.3 mi SE - Directions

C. Presentation
0845 8800110 47-49 Durham St
London, SE11 5JA
0.4 mi SW - Directions

D. Vine Housing Co-op
020 7793 7564 37 Bonnington Square
London, SW8 1TF
0.5 mi SW - Directions
References: housingcorp.gov.uk - 5 more »

E. Broadway Manor Place
020 7703 6898 140 Manor Place
London, SE17 3BH
0.5 mi E - Directions
References: broadwaylondon.org - 1 more »

F. Eaves Housing For Women
020 7735 2062 Lincoln House 1-3 Brixton Rd
London, SW9 6DE
0.6 mi S - Directions

G. Peabody Trust
020 7021 4000 45 Westminster Bridge Rd
London, SE1 7JB
0.6 mi N - Directions
References: peabody.org.uk - 87 more »

H. Central & Cecil Housing Trust
020 7922 5300 Cecil House
266 Waterloo Rd
London, SE1 8RQ
0.7 mi N - Directions
References: ccht.org.uk - 34 more »

I. Anchor Trust
020 7582 3184 Bernard Sunley House
21 South Island Place
London, SW9 0DY
0.8 mi S - Directions

J. Harding Housing Association
020 7735 2218 Ashton House Chryssell Rd
London, SW9 6NE
0.8 mi S - Directions

;)

kea

07-09-2005, 13:18

that's a lot of housing associations. which one relates to brady's?

edit: oh i see, you've just searched for those with offices near brixton. you do know that many housing associations operate across the city and indeed across the country, don't you? hence it's quite possible it's none of the above.

gaijingirl

07-09-2005, 14:01

I would definitely be interested in getting involved in this.

Bob

07-09-2005, 14:02

I wasn't being argumentative :D.

You'd be forgiven for assuming the clocktower at least was listed -- I think a lot of people do -- but it isn't. It should be. I'm sure we discussed this before with our resident Lambeth experts. Rabbie? Bob? Pooka? I can't remember. Senile. Quite. It's a bit like finding the end of a ball of wool but far from impossible.

I'm touched I'm considered an expert! :) I can't remember anything beyond what's already been mentioned on this thread. I have dropped an email to somebody I might know at Lambeth who might know. It's a crying shame that the building isn't being used for something decent. I'd be quite happy if it were private sector as long it's something interesting like a live music venue or theatre. Just please not a bland block of flats or boring chain store :rolleyes:

An FOI request would work but iirc my first one (submitted January) on what property Lambeth owns on CH lane was lost. :rolleyes: :mad:

IntoStella

07-09-2005, 14:22

An FOI request would work but iirc my first one (submitted January) on what property Lambeth owns on CH lane was lost. :rolleyes: :mad:
Is there any end to Lambeth's bloody cheek? Do they honestly expect you to believe that?

Note to self: make sure any FoI requests are sent recorded delivery.

Thanks for asking your friend.

editor

07-09-2005, 14:49

Bob

07-09-2005, 15:03

Is there any end to Lambeth's bloody cheek? Do they honestly expect you to believe that?

Note to self: make sure any FoI requests are sent recorded delivery.

Thanks for asking your friend.

Lost in the sense of they never bothered replying.... let alone saying sorry for not replying - I just haven't got round to resubmitting it!

A pleasure. :)

Bob

07-09-2005, 15:04

Of course, the even bigger disgrace is Cooltan.

Oh yes - far better to kick out the squatters who had created a thriving, much-loved and wel used community arts centre and replace them with a rotting crack den of an eyesore for the best part of a decade.

:(

To be fair the developers have been busy trying to get it demolished! :rolleyes:

Hopefully they won't appeal to John Prescott (or whoever the planning inspector above Lameth is - Kea?). If they do we can expect a) even more delays, b) Prescott to approve the 12 storey stuff on the grounds that he loves big buildings... :mad:

editor

07-09-2005, 15:06

Bob

07-09-2005, 15:10

Wasn't the Cooltan replacement turned down on grounds of it being of poor construction?
Not sure if Brixton needs a big 12 storey building built on the cheap.

Couldn't see much wrong with the original building when it was first evicted, come to think of it.

Poor construction plus about 10 other reasons to do with it being not in tune with the character of the area... I think they're appealing to the council - though tbh I've slightly lost track.

Incidentally I'm trying to get that rubbish strewn bit in front cleared up. Strangely the council can force the private owners to do this...

Giles

07-09-2005, 15:41

Did the council compulsorily-purchase it with a view to doing something big and probably awful with the site? Or what?

How did it end up being bought and then left closed by Lambeth? Does anyone know who owned it before the council did? A brewery? The landlord?

It seems wrong to me that they can use the taxpayer's money to buy a place like this and then just sit on it for years.

What a waste.

Giles..

citydreams

07-09-2005, 15:47

Giles

07-09-2005, 16:18

There wasn't much information on the title documents from the land-registry. Where it should have said the purchase price was "Price Stated : Not Available"

There had been an ammendment to the lease on one of the properties covered in this title on the 16th Feb this year.

If anyone wants a copy to peruse and make sense of then PM me your addy and I'll wing them across.

I think the Land Registry only started keeping price information quite recently (last year or two). There was a flurry of articles in the papers about it, because it meant that nosey people could find out what their neighbours house just got sold for.

Giles..

lang rabbie

07-09-2005, 16:21

It seems Swan Hill Properties were to have been Lambeth's development partner

Proctor and Matthews Architects would have been the architects (http://www.archsearch.co.uk/QHRS9g9Bb1r=N95S3RVUysw/practices/273/2.html?&returnURL=&imageID=#)

The design extends the urban morphology of Brixton - the distinctive network of streets, arcades and alleyways - by introducing a new pedestrian link at ground level, which bisects the site from Electric Lane to Atlantic Road. This forms an `interchange' connection between the London Underground Station to the west and the overland railway station to the North-East. The proposed route provides a continuation of the Brixton Arcade across Electric Lane, into a new space at the centre of the scheme (and marked by the `circus `of residential apartments above) and discharging onto Atlantic Road at the foot of the railway platform stairs and entrance into the station.

Brixton Central Site - site plan (http://www.archsearch.co.uk/shared/showLarge.html?id=8105&mime=image/jpg)

Brixton Central Site - Perspective (http://www.archsearch.co.uk/shared/showLarge.html?id=8104&mime=image/jpg)

IntoStella

07-09-2005, 16:27

Giles

07-09-2005, 17:00

So have all these plans been completely scuppered now?

I hope so. Why not just do up the pub and venue?

You could probably make a few flats out of the upper floors (it was a hotel previously after all).

Giles..

citydreams

07-09-2005, 17:44

Dubversion

07-09-2005, 17:51

the best person to ask for recent years would be twisted, who used to run the Twisted AM lounge down there. i saw dozens of bands over the years, most of whom i can't bloody remember :)

definitely The Cardiacs, definitely Alabama 3 and various incarnations..

as for the distant past, i really don't know

citydreams

07-09-2005, 18:16

Just been going over an old Brady thread (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-76857.html). It's got some great links to community projects such as Shoreditch Our Way (http://www.shoreditchourway.org.uk/ShOW_menu.htm
) and the Community Gateway Association (http://cch.coop/docs/cch-gateway.pdf)

This is the stripped down version which I think could be expanded on, carefully. . .

(a) The first and main Object of the Charity is to promote urban regeneration by bringing neglected properties back into use primarily in Lambeth but not excluding deprived neighbourhoods elsewhere in South London.

(b) The second Object of the Charity is to encourage community utilisation and control of land and property and to facilitate the use thereof in the interests of social welfare and with the object of improving the condition of life of the local community.

(c) The third Object of the Charity is to support businesses in the social enterprise sector or local groups whose structure incorporates the principles of co-operation and community or social inclusion and ownership.

(d) The fourth Object of the Charity is to use any such other means to use property to promote regeneration and local sustainable economic development as may from time to time be determined subject to the prior consent of the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales.

Did a charity ever get set up?

nice photo :) (http://www.urban75.org/brixton/photos/images/132.jpg)

Bob

08-09-2005, 08:53

This is proving to be a bit of voyage of discovery.

The plans for the site apparently were shorlisted for the Property Week Retail Property Awards in 2000 for high density development - as far as I can see these are the abandoned plans.

Random bit of trivia: The property adviser for Lambeth was somebody who disciplined his Kings Charles Spaniels by biting them on the ears.

But nothing else in the public domain at all I can find. However my contact at the council is turning up interesting stuff so I should be able to report more in the next 24 hours... :)

lang rabbie

08-09-2005, 09:09

The plans for the site apparently were shorlisted for the Property Week Retail Property Awards in 2000 for high density development - as far as I can see these are the abandoned plans.

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/intradoc/groups/public/documents/pressrelease/002936.htm

No, that was Phase 1 - also developed in "partnership" with Swan Hill. It's the building containing the Sainsbury's Local, WH Smith, Argos and Carphone Warehouse and the desolate Sainsbury's stockroom occupying the glazed first floor.

IntoStella

08-09-2005, 09:10

Just been going over an old Brady thread (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-76857.html). It's got some great links to community projects such as Shoreditch Our Way (http://www.shoreditchourway.org.uk/ShOW_menu.htm
) and the Community Gateway Association (http://cch.coop/docs/cch-gateway.pdf)

Did a charity ever get set up?

nice photo :) (http://www.urban75.org/brixton/photos/images/132.jpg)Yes. I was a founder member. Unfortunately it got taken over by fuckwits, one of whom threw me out of my home last Christmas because I didn't agree with their anti-democratic, self serving and extremely dodgy schemes. The poster you quote is one of them. You live and learn.

Incidentally, the charity was originally anna key's idea and he did all the legwork towards setting it up. I only wish we had been more careful who we invited to be involved in it. There was an excellent steering committee in the early days but they too got told to fuck off, depite their expertise and commitment.

It was all quite an unvelievable state of affairs, really.

Bob

08-09-2005, 09:11

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/intradoc/groups/public/documents/pressrelease/002936.htm

No, that was Phase 1 - also developed in "partnership" with Swan Hill. It's the building containing the Sainsbury's Local, WH Smith, Argos and Carphone Warehouse and the desolate Sainsbury's stockroom occupying the glazed first floor.

Is the agreement with Swan Hill anywhere on the website?

Brixton Hatter

08-09-2005, 13:14

Apols if someone has posted this already, but if you go to the Lambeth Planning Database (http://planning.lambeth.gov.uk/publicaccess/dc/dcapplication/application_searchform.asp) and enter the application number 00/00237/FUL you can view the planning application - which was approved in 2001 - to demolish the building except from the Brady's frontage.

WHatever happens, they may have to get their skates on - interestingly, the planning permission runs out on 09/10/2006.

citydreams

08-09-2005, 13:24

If there was a new planning application on this property, say for flats, would we be able to find that out from the planning office on acre lane?

citydreams

08-09-2005, 13:31

I've trawled through the planning.lambeth.gov.uk as far back as jul-2003 and can't see any planning request for the change in lease that was made in Jan this year :confused:

lang rabbie

08-09-2005, 14:18

IIRC the (very sketchy) plans were determined by the need to leave space for the proposed lifts/escalators to new platforms on the high level railway - now dropped by TfL.

Actually, I may have got this the wrong way around :o - the previous council had signed up to the Swan Hill scheme, which got full planning consent, but apparently doesn't include any provision for a link to the high level railway.

Then, when the East London Line extension got switched from the Peckham-Streatham-Wimbledon route to Peckham-Clapham Junction via LJ and Brixton, Lambeth started lobbying to get the high level platforms funded as part of the project - it was probably a very sketchy drawing for that which I saw.
I assume that the "Central Site" scheme was put on hold until TfL's full needs had been identified.

Since then TfL has refused to fund the high level platforms as part of ELL phase II, because they claim the engineering costs would be so high.

pooka

08-09-2005, 14:21

Perhaps the upper floors could be used for the drug rehab that the Brighton Tce residents are up in arms about?

lang rabbie

08-09-2005, 14:32

Perhaps the upper floors could be used for the drug rehab that the Brighton Tce residents are up in arms about?

Unforunately, the PCT (health trust) seem to be have ruled out any site that doesn't have space for a ground floor reception as not complying with the Disability Discrimination Act.

pooka

08-09-2005, 14:34

There's some sense in that, I guess.

IntoStella

08-09-2005, 14:35

Perhaps the upper floors could be used for the drug rehab that the Brighton Tce residents are up in arms about? Perhaps residents in Brighton Terrace shouldn't be such NIMBYs. ;)

I mostly agree with the editor (rather than AK, shock horror), that the orignal vision set out last year was perhaps too all-encompassing and insufficiently focused, including as it did a music school, rehab facilities, careers training, theatre space and gawd alone knows what else. But I think it is too early to be prescriptive about what the space should be. That should be a matter of public consultation.

editor

08-09-2005, 14:42

But I think it is too early to be prescriptive about what the space should be. That should be a matter of public consultation.I'm a complete stranger to these things, but wouldn't it be better to mine the collective knowledge of long term Brixtonites to forge an exciting, fired-with-enthusiasm, cohesive, working plan of what the place might be and then present that to the community for their feedback rather than starting from a blank sheet?

Or is that just my impatient get on with it punk rock nature rearing its head? ;)

oryx

08-09-2005, 14:51

Just to say this is a really interesting & worthwhile thread. I used to go to Brady's a lot in the mid-late 90s & it was a fantastic venue, with that great big room in the middle. Lots of happy memories of good nights including being served once at 7.30 a.m. (should that be :D , :o , or :eek: ?) - how did they manage those hours?!

I just hope it can be turned into a decent venue again as it's being left to rot is shameful.

memespring

08-09-2005, 14:57

Why doesnt soemone set something up on Pledgebank.com to lobby the council to do something with it?

Bob

08-09-2005, 14:58

Why doesnt soemone set something up on Pledgebank.com to lobby the council to do something with it?

Hang on 24 hours & I should have a definitive answer about where the council is about this... I'm going somewhere tonight where I should be able to find out. :)

<Bob dons his disguise>

IntoStella

08-09-2005, 15:10

I'm a complete stranger to these things, but wouldn't it be better to mine the collective knowledge of long term Brixtonites to forge an exciting, fired-with-enthusiasm, cohesive, working plan of what the place might be and then present that to the community for their feedback rather than starting from a blank sheet?Or is that just my impatient get on with it punk rock nature rearing its head? ;) What's the difference between "min[ing] the collective knowledge of long term Brixtonites" and local public consultation? :confused:

More specifically than 'something like Cooltan', what would you like to see?

IntoStella

08-09-2005, 15:14

Why doesnt soemone set something up on Pledgebank.com to lobby the council to do something with it?
I hadn't even heard of it before. I'll have a butcher's.

Bob -- nice one. Cheers.

http://www.uncleodiescollectibles.com/img_lib/Guy%20Williams%20Zorro%2087%202-4-5.jpg

Bob gets ready to go out

IntoStella

08-09-2005, 15:16

editor

08-09-2005, 15:25

What's the difference between "min[ing] the collective knowledge of long term Brixtonites" and local public consultation? :confused:

More specifically than 'something like Cooltan', what would you like to see?Maybe I don't know the correct terms, but "local public consultation" sounds like starting with a blank sheet and then going around with a clipboard asking people questions about what they may like. That sounds like it might take forever.

My preference would be to to get a small team of people on-board with hands on experience and/or tons of enthusiasm, thrash out a realistic, workable, achievable plan that we agree on, designate roles and then present the idea to the target audience for their opinion/feedback (and amend/rip up plans if necessary)

But that's how I like to work in teams, so maybe my approach is incompatible with how you like to do things.

Seeing as you asked, my ideal would be to have a community venue that offers things like live performance/theatre/kids space and daytime cafe with a bar in the evening.

I'd like there to be rehearsal space/workshop space/cheap rooms for hire to community projects. Fuck, I've got a ton of ideas, some of them good, some of them no doubt crap and/or impractical.

But I would say Cooltan is as good a template to work from as any. It certainly proved a good reference point for my Offline nights!

memespring

08-09-2005, 15:34

I hadn't even heard of it before. I'll have a butcher's.

Its a great site - I used it to get people to write to Kate Hoey about the countryside alliance job: http://www.pledgebank.com/katehoey

You can read their letters here to prove it worked: http://www.katehoey.co.uk/2005/08/pledge_success.html

IntoStella

08-09-2005, 15:38

Maybe I don't know the correct terms, but "local public consultation" sounds like starting with a blank sheet and then going around with a clipboard asking people questions about what they may like. That sounds like it might take forever.

My preference would be to to get a small team of people on-board with hands on experience and/or tons of enthusiasm, thrash out a realistic, workable, achievable plan that we agree on, designate roles and then present the idea to the target audience for their opinion/feedback (and amend/rip up plans if necessary)

But that's how I like to work in teams, so maybe my approach is incompatible with how you like to do things.

Seeing as you asked, my ideal would be to have a community venue that offers things like live performance/theatre/kids space and daytime cafe with a bar in the evening.

I'd like there to be rehearsal space/workshop space/cheap rooms for hire to community projects. Fuck, I've got a ton of ideas, some of them good, some of them no doubt crap and/or impractical.

But I would say Cooltan is as good a template to work from as any. It certainly proved a good reference point for my Offline nights!Sounds good. Glad to see you're so enthusiastic about it.

Bob

08-09-2005, 22:50

I'm back, out of my cloak and have news, 90% good (IMHO) :)

The story requires remembering some key things:
1. In 2002 council control went from Labour to Lib Dem
2. In 2006 there will be council elections
3. Everything relating to the tube is very complicated and isn't just to do with Transport for London, but also the private companies that run the tube.
4. The council has £500m or so of debt so in most circumstances just does whatever raises most cash / costs least whoever is in control.
5. This is written by a lib dem who has talked to lib dems, so if you're paranoid you may not believe me.

1. The past

Right back in 1999 or so a plan was hatched by the then Labour council with the tube to combine Bradys with the site next door that is the outlet for stale air from the tube plus a small yard round it. It is this yard (+Bradys) that the plans relate to.

At various stages the tube have thought they'll need different bits of space depending on things like where escalators are so this has held up everything.

While the council own the land the pre 2002 council sold the exclusive rights to develop the site (including the tube bit in some way I don't understand) to Swan Hill for about five years.

While the tube was being redeveloped (still not quite finished) the private company couldn't start building since half the potential site was being used.

2. The future.
The exclusive rights expire soon - possibly at the end of this year (I haven't clarified this yet)

Once the rights expire the council can do what it likes with Bradys.

The council will basically have three options:

1. Give it over to something completely non profit (Very unlikely given the councils debts)

2. Sell the site but subject to the ground floor (or ground and first) being given over to a pub / theatre etc. with the rest open to other uses -probably flats.

3. Sell the site with no restrictions.

3. Good news / bad news
Good news is:
The relevant responsible Executive member (councillor) Andrew Sawdon used to drink at Bradys and wants to see it back as a pub
Anyone who isn't in charge of Lambeths budget would want something that is either 1 or 2 in some combination

Bad news is:
option 3 would bring in a bit more money - so other councillors may force this regardless of what party is in power.

Conclusion:

A campaign for the pub being returned in some sort would probably be successful.

The closer to 2 it is the more likely success will be IMHO - though I can understand lobbying for 1.

The electoral cycle is quite good for getting commitments from all the parties on this.

So I think we should have a campaign that as the bottom line is lobbying for Bradys back as a pub. :cool:

citydreams

08-09-2005, 22:54

While the council own the land the pre 2002 council sold the exclusive rights to develop the site (including the tube bit in some way I don't understand) to Swan Hill for about five years.

they've got on their website that the project cost £6.5m, which isn't bad seeming as they've not done anything.

I wonder whether there is a bind on the type of development that Swan Hill can do

Bob

08-09-2005, 22:56

they've got on their website that the project cost £6.5m, which isn't bad seeming as they've not done anything.

I wonder whether there is a bind on the type of development that Swan Hill can do

I think that's what it would cost if the development happened not just for them doing the plans.

Development they can do would be subject to their own plans I'd guess.

citydreams

08-09-2005, 22:59

but if they paid an option to develop that land it must be according an agreed definition.. well, maybe not must, but hopefully

Bob

08-09-2005, 23:00

but if they paid an option to develop that land it must be according an agreed definition.. well, maybe not must, but hopefully

Dunno. The important thing is that soon the land is free, free do you hear? :)

citydreams

08-09-2005, 23:01

could asking for info on the deal through FOI scare the council into doing something quick sharp?

Bob

08-09-2005, 23:04

could asking for info on the deal through FOI scare the council into doing something quick sharp?

You could try. Or I could (as the resident FOI nerd). The problem is that contracts are reasonably well protected through FOI - especiallly for things that haven't happened. You define the request and I'll manage it if you like!

kea

09-09-2005, 08:23

sounds positive :) so the suggestions about a housing association being involved were baseless, then?

Bob

09-09-2005, 09:43

sounds positive :) so the suggestions about a housing association being involved were baseless, then?

Yup. Incidentally in terms of speed of stuff being sorted out option 2 is the one that will get the pub back into use quickest. The council could sell it to a pub owner who would sort it out very quickly.

IntoStella

09-09-2005, 11:33

Nice, work, Bob. Hmmmm. Plenty of food for thought there. Sawdon seems all right. For a lib dem, anyway.

citydreams

14-09-2005, 09:54

Bob

14-09-2005, 09:57

I'll be there. Hopefully should have found out a definitive answer on the date that the exclusive rights expire by then.

Mrs Magpie

14-09-2005, 10:52

Nice, work, Bob. Hmmmm. Plenty of food for thought there. Sawdon seems all right. For a lib dem, anyway.I've known him for nearly 25 years. He's got some really valuable youth projects off the ground in that time, which are all still thriving. The best thing about him is that he'll only say he'll do things if he actually can. You know exactly where you are with Andrew Sawdon.

Bob

14-09-2005, 10:55

I've known him for nearly 25 years. He's got some really valuable youth projects off the ground in that time, which are all still thriving. The best thing about him is that he'll only say he'll do things if he actually can. You know exactly where you are with Andrew Sawdon.

More proof that you know everyone. :)

Bob

14-09-2005, 11:16

Food for thought for everyone. Once we know a bit more we probably need a fairly simple petition along these lines - comments welcome. I've intentionally made it so that a wide variety of people will be happy to sign it and it is likely to be supported by all three parties on the council. In other words this is designed to build consensus - which is why it doesn't & shouldn't have a lot in it.

We the undersigned call on the council to:

1. Make sure that Brady’s is brought rapidly back into use.
2. Not link any development plans to the neighbouring site, which is likely to cause significant delays.
3. Protect the main use of Brady’s as a pub or for entertainment purposes such as a theatre through conditions in the lease as well as through planning permission.

citydreams

14-09-2005, 11:26

..would love to add a condition tying the use of one of the rooms as a community space.

The SLP made mention of the new Weir Link Project - a Lambeth backed £2million community centre in Clapham. Going to look it up and see if they can offer any support.

linerider

14-09-2005, 11:35

citydreams

14-09-2005, 11:42

but then, how is it possible to know what is feasible without getting a proper evaluation done? and why would the council bother doing that when it can just sell the land off as a commercial interest?

IntoStella

14-09-2005, 11:57

So, all those in favour of doing more than sitting on our arses while this building rots,
we're planning on meeting up for a drink or two on

the evening of Wednesday, September 28th at a location yet to be decided Oooh, you're so masterful. :D

If the Albert is too loud, what about the Trin? Dull on a Friday night but good for political machinations.

IntoStella

14-09-2005, 12:04

one thing that hasn't been talked about much is the state of the place.even when it was last squated it was in an appalling state of repair.the electrics,gas and water would have to be completly redone,but worse still is the state of the floors/ceilings,there is a very good chance that the place would have to be completly gutted and rebuilt which would cost a lot of money.
i love bradys and would love to see it back,but to talk about what should be done with the place without taking cost into account is a waste of time.This is the chicken and egg aspect of projects like this but it is not insurmountable.

Basically you have got to know what work needs to be done and how much it will cost (as well as what you intend to do with the place) before you can realistically apply for grants, ie Heritage Lottery Fund and various EC regeneration grants, to pay for it. Nobody is suggesting we find the money ourselves. We couldn't. There is still masses of regeneration money around, but the only way to proceed with any prospect of long term success is to do everything by the book in terms of surveys, feasibility studies, etc. Grants are available to pay for these as well.

BCA spent about 5 million quid of HLF money just on a feasibility study for Raleigh Hall. It may seem crazy but that is how it is done. A project as big as Brady's has got to be carried out and funded properly.

lang rabbie

14-09-2005, 12:06

The SLP made mention of the new Weir Link Project - a Lambeth backed £2million community centre in Clapham. Going to look it up and see if they can offer any support.

Revamp for rats' haven? (http://icsouthlondon.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200southlondonheadlines/tm_objectid=15842523%26method=full%26siteid=50100-name_page.html)

Although they can tell you how they set up the project, I suspect they would be in competition for the same funds - Lambeth hasn't actually stumped up much cash so far for the project.

It's a former estate hall that has been derelict for a decade. The project has only been kept going by the persistence of a local vicar, and the fact that in one of the most marginal wards in the borough, split between Labour and the Lib Dems, it has backing of all the local councillors.

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure Lambeth housing would have demolished it by now and transferred the site to a housing association for new social housing, probably without any new facilties for the estate.

citydreams

14-09-2005, 12:12

Revamp for rats' haven? (http://icsouthlondon.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200southlondonheadlines/tm_objectid=15842523%26method=full%26siteid=50100-name_page.html)

A council spokesman said it had no "firm plans" for the land.

"Once a proposal has been submitted we will consider leasing the land to the group but at this stage there is no commitment from us."

Shocking! No commitment for a community centre? I really am naive.

lang rabbie

14-09-2005, 12:13

BCA spent about 5 million quid of HLF money just on a feasibility study for Raleigh Hall.

:confused:

Project Details
Project: Raleigh Hall development for Black Cultural Archives
Applicant: Black Cultural Archives
Programme: Project Planning Grants
Location: London
Region: London
Amount awarded: £29,000
Description: The conversion and extension of Raleigh Hall, a derilict Grade II listed Georgian building in Brixton. Black Cultural Archives will operate the building as a home for its historical archive and library collection and as a centre for visitors.

I think that English Heritage gave Lambeth an earlier grant to make the Raleigh Hall building watertight, but that was a six figure sum at most.

Edited to add: AFAIK, BCA also got £344,000 from the HLF back in 1999 under their guise as "National Museum & Archives of Black History & Culture" for improved conservation/storage facilities for their collection.

IntoStella

14-09-2005, 12:19

:confused:

I think that English Heritage gave Lambeth an earlier grant to make the Raleigh Hall building watertight, but that was a six figure sum at most.

Edited to add: AFAIK, BCA also got £344,000 from the HLF back in 1999 under their guise as "National Museum & Archives of Black History & Culture" for improved conservation/storage facilities for their collection.
I was sure that figure was quoted at the BAF meeting about this time last year. But maybe that was a projected figure of funds still to be applied for.

citydreams

14-09-2005, 12:20

Oooh, you're so masterful. :D

but I'm putty in your hands. The Trinity it is then :)

Bob

14-09-2005, 12:22

Lang Rabbie? Can we tempt the guru of all things council along? ;)

gaijingirl

14-09-2005, 12:29

but I'm putty in your hands. The Trinity it is then :)

I'll come... let us know nearer what time to be there!

linerider

14-09-2005, 12:30

This is the chicken and egg aspect of projects like this but it is not insurmountable.

Basically you have got to know what work needs to be done and how much it will cost (as well as what you intend to do with the place) before you can realistically apply for grants, ie Heritage Lottery Fund and various EC regeneration grants, to pay for it. Nobody is suggesting we find the money ourselves. We couldn't. There is still masses of regeneration money around, but the only way to proceed with any prospect of long term success is to do everything by the book in terms of surveys, feasibility studies, etc. Grants are available to pay for these as well.

BCA spent about 5 million quid of HLF money just on a feasibility study for Raleigh Hall. It may seem crazy but that is how it is done. A project as big as Brady's has got to be carried out and funded properly.
I agree that we have to do something and will gladly get involved,i like alot of other people believe that bradys is a brixton institution and should be returned to being a community resource.
i worked at bradys for it's last 6 years as a pub and have been involved every time it's been squated.

IntoStella

14-09-2005, 12:43

I agree that we have to do something and will gladly get involved,i like alot of other people believe that bradys is a brixton institution and should be returned to being a community resource.
i worked at bradys for it's last 6 years as a pub and have been involved every time it's been squated.
Excellent. :cool:

lang rabbie

14-09-2005, 12:44

I was sure that figure was quoted at the BAF meeting about this time last year. But maybe that was a projected figure of funds still to be applied for.

I suspect the HLF have earmarked £5million for the BCA in Raleigh Hall scheme, subject to BCA putting together a plausible business plan. HLF (and other heritage bodies) are desperate to be seen to be doing something in London for black heritage in the run up to 2007 - bicentenary of the abolition of the slave trade.

There is a danger that BCA's (IMHO desperately dull) proposals for their museum will be sexed up to claim to provide "community facilities", and you'd need to have a strong argument why HLF should support plans only a few hundred yards away.

lang rabbie

14-09-2005, 12:52

Lang Rabbie? Can we tempt the guru of all things council along? ;)

Sorry, I'm chairing a meeting that evening.

I'm involved in too many other open space and community projects in the SW2/SW12/SW16 fringes already.

Happy to shout support from the sidelines. My suggestion (for what it is worth) is to try and get the pub - including the former music room - listed (if no one has tried this already)

Brixton Hatter

14-09-2005, 13:09

So, all those in favour of doing more than sitting on our arses while this building rots,
we're planning on meeting up for a drink or two on

the evening of Wednesday, September 28th at a location yet to be decided
I would be very happy to help out - keep me posted. :)

IntoStella

14-09-2005, 16:40

but I'm putty in your hands.
I should be so lucky. :D

IntoStella

14-09-2005, 16:45

It might be a long (cheap) shot, but could we obtain a list of famous artists that have played at Brady's?

I know Hendrix was known to be a regular, and, well, the Hendrix family have just won their case against Purple Haze Records ltd link (http://www.jimihendrix.org/news/news,uklit2.html) and may be up for extending his memorial after Jimi's Woodstock CD is released.
Sadly, it seems the Hendrix Brady's rumours were somewhat exaggerated. There was a thread that mentioned this as well. Wasn't it rabbie or newbie perhaps who exploded that particular myth?

Hendrix may have gone to Brady's but he wasn't, AFAIK, a regular and apparently he never played there.

editor

14-09-2005, 16:57

Hendrix may have gone to Brady's but he wasn't, AFAIK, a regular and apparently he never played there.He definitely did play a Brady's, but not, as far as I know, the Railway Hotel, at least not as a full blown band gig.

02-19-67: Brady's Club, London
http://www.nii.net/~obie/jimi_hendrix_live.htm

Mrs Magpie

14-09-2005, 17:05

10-05-66:
Jimi, Mitch, and Noel play together for the first time in London. Have Mercy, Green Onions, Everybody Needs Somebody My Mum was at that gig, which I think was in the Ealing Blues Club. The building is still there....

IntoStella

14-09-2005, 18:10

He definitely did play a Brady's, but not, as far as I know, the Railway Hotel, at least not as a full blown band gig.

02-19-67: Brady's Club, London
http://www.nii.net/~obie/jimi_hendrix_live.htm
Didn't somebody post up a flyer for that gig before? It had an address on it that was, IIRC, substantially different from 'our' Brady's.

Bob

15-09-2005, 09:34

My Mum was at that gig, which I think was in the Ealing Blues Club. The building is still there....

Now that's impressive. The best I can do is that my Dad was asked to take part in a police identity parade in 1960s Brixton. An old lady who had been mugged very nervously said she didn't want to point out the mugger due to fear of being hit. When she eventually did point out the mugger she confidently said she was sure it was my Dad. Needless to say he is (and was) a mild mannered accountant. :D

Bob

15-09-2005, 09:38

Also just heard that I should have an answer on when the exclusive rights expire soon.

citydreams

26-09-2005, 11:44

Hi, Just a reminder that we're meeting at The Trinity this wednesday
all welcome
drinks at 7:30, to start meeting at 8pm

Zinedine*

27-09-2005, 22:16

Hi, Just a reminder that we're meeting at The Trinity this wednesday
all welcome
drinks at 7:30, to start meeting at 8pm

good luck with the meeting. I cannot attend this one, but will certainly be at any further meeting/help with action. I used to work in a planning department,(unfortuanatly not lambeth) so I can get advice from people there, if needed.

editor

28-09-2005, 00:30

memespring

28-09-2005, 08:31

Hi, Just a reminder that we're meeting at The Trinity this wednesday
all welcome
drinks at 7:30, to start meeting at 8pm

I'm meeting with someone about the crack mailing list in the Trinity earlier, but I might join you when we're done if thats OK?

Zinedine*

28-09-2005, 08:33

I'm afraid I can't make it either.

One odd thing. I was talking to an old Brixtonite - someone who really knows his stuff about this kind of thing - and he swore blind that the clock tower of Brady's was categorically, 100% listed.

In fact, he said that he was with the officials that listed it at the time because they were listing his property at the time.

I know people have researched this and found nothing, but could it be that the listing has been lost?

maybe, but If memory serves me correct, when something is listed the records are placed in the Land Charges department, Legal, as well as Planning (but this mayb edifferent at different authorities. But saying that, the authority I worked for were pretty slack with their records. If someone had been researching the site (which obviously they have been) it would be quite possible to lose the records.

The best thing would be to try and find out a date of the listing and check local newspapers. Also find out which planning officers and councillors were responsible for listing it and see if any are still around. Best way would be to research the persons property you mentioned, which I think can be done for free at the council offices.

Although, there is always the possibility that the council 'lost' the records on purpose.

I will talk to an old colleague and find out if there is any other way to check if a building has been listed.

editor

28-09-2005, 08:35

I will talk to an old colleague and find out if there is any other way to check if a building has been listed.Cool. This guy really was emphatic that the clock tower was listed and was expressing surprise that campaigners hadn't used this as leverage for getting the building back into use.

IntoStella

28-09-2005, 09:19

One odd thing. I was talking to an old Brixtonite - someone who really knows his stuff about this kind of thing - and he swore blind that the clock tower of Brady's was categorically, 100% listed.
Once and for all, we went to the planning office last year and looked at the records. It is not listed, no matter what some bloke in a pub might think. There are a lot of, shall we say 'fantasists' around.

IntoStella

28-09-2005, 09:22

This always happens when anybody tries to organise anything in Brixton. A load of misinformation creeps in, hares get set running, everyone runs around like headless chickens and nothing whatsoever gets done.

If it's going to be just another talking shop I have other things to do.

IntoStella

28-09-2005, 09:24

Although, there is always the possibility that the council 'lost' the records on purpose.Oh honestly. Come on!

editor

28-09-2005, 09:28

It is not listed, no matter what some bloke in a pub might think. There are a lot of, shall we say 'fantasists' around."Some 'fantasist' bloke in a pub", eh? You think that's what I'm on about?

<editor's enthusiasm for getting involved seeps away>

I'm not interested in getting involved in an atmosphere of sneering put downs, so I'll leave you to it.

Zinedine*

28-09-2005, 09:34

Cool. This guy really was emphatic that the clock tower was listed and was expressing surprise that campaigners hadn't used this as leverage for getting the building back into use.

Ive sent an e-mail to the Principle Planning Officer at the Local Authority I used to work in. I will post his reply when I get it

London_Calling

28-09-2005, 09:42

About Listed Buildings - (http://www.heritage.co.uk/apavilions/glstb.html#n) where

Where to see the Lists

1.14 You can inspect the statutory lists for England free of charge at: The National Monuments Record in Swindon or at the office of the relevant County or District Council (in London, at the office of the appropriate London Borough Council).

Zinedine*

28-09-2005, 09:50

Oh honestly. Come on!
I worked in Planning for ages, Ive seen worse go on. I wouldnt put anything past them. A planning officer gets a very low wage compared with other people with similar qualifications- sometimes they top up there wage doing things that are less than honest.

Losing something is nothing compared to other stuff I have witnessed.

corporate whore

28-09-2005, 10:05

Hello - these people may be able to provide some help for yer worthy cause..

http://www.communitypubs.org/

IntoStella

28-09-2005, 10:16

"Some 'fantasist' bloke in a pub", eh? You think that's what I'm on about?

<editor's enthusiasm for getting involved seeps away>

I'm not interested in getting involved in an atmosphere of sneering put downs, so I'll leave you to it. Enough of the emotional blackmail already. :rolleyes:

I have seen this happen far, far too many times. Instead of finding out how to go about getting the building listed, which it isn't, now we're wasting time going in circles.

:rolleyes:

IntoStella

28-09-2005, 10:21

lang rabbie

28-09-2005, 10:24

Although, there is always the possibility that the council 'lost' the records on purpose.

Local councils don't list buildings - central Government does. Until last year the listing process was the responsibility of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (successor to Department of National Heritage), with English Heritage acting as their official adviser.

English Heritage now maintain the list as well and process applications for new listings.

HOWEVER, most applications to list buildings are channelled through the local council's conservation officers.

It would not surprise me if Lambeth's conservation team got as far as putting together an application to list the Railway Hotel. Indeed they probably compiled a detailed dossier on it. (I have a sneaking suspicion of having seen some mention of ongoing work in the Conservation team's annual report.)

Were they then stopped by their bosses in the council's "Regeneration" directorate, fearful that if the pub was listed, the need to keep the whole building would stymie the plans for "Brixton Central Site Phase II" ?

Conservation officers are a long way down the bureaucratic food chain. I'm not sure whether the order would have come from the then Labour administration - who were so keen on their commercial partnership to bring chain shopping to Brixton - or (more likely) from a senior officer in the Regeneration directorate.

citydreams

28-09-2005, 10:25

Hello - these people may be able to provide some help for yer worthy cause..

http://www.communitypubs.org/

Thank you :)

twisted

28-09-2005, 10:58

"Some 'fantasist' bloke in a pub", eh? You think that's what I'm on about?

<editor's enthusiasm for getting involved seeps away>

I'm not interested in getting involved in an atmosphere of sneering put downs, so I'll leave you to it.

I've always been led to bellieve that too as it's a FIVE-faced clock which apparently is very rare.
AFAIK that can't be taken down but any other part of the building (eg where the gigs were) can be ripped to shreds. In fact that bit was added later.

Anyone else ever crawled through the ventilator shafts btw? There must be a million mice there by now and their dung is probably what keeps the building together.

Zinedine*

28-09-2005, 11:07

I got the reply back from the Planning bloke and he said much the same as Lang Rabbie I.E. English Heritage will have the records. He also said that it's very unlikely that any records the L.A. hold on the listing would be lost. Especially, If there was recent planning permission. A large company would have got solicitors and specialists to research the site thoroughly in order to prevent any problems in the future.

His view is that it is not listed, but there is a good case for getting it listed. He will send me some relevant literature through the post on this process, which I can pass on to whoever needs it.

IntoStella

28-09-2005, 11:16

His view is that it is not listed, but there is a good case for getting it listed. He will send me some relevant literature through the post on this process, which I can pass on to whoever needs it. Glad we have cleared that up. :)

The only way it would already be listed is if an organised (ha!) pressure group of residents etc had made sure that it happened and that is EXTREMELY unlikely. I have certainly never heard of any such thing having occurred. It was a pub, then it was shut, then it was a squat and now it's empty again. No one has tried to list it in that time. The council wouldn't have done it off its own back for the reasons rabbie explains.

editor

28-09-2005, 11:21

It would not surprise me if Lambeth's conservation team got as far as putting together an application to list the Railway Hotel. Indeed they probably compiled a detailed dossier on it. (I have a sneaking suspicion of having seen some mention of ongoing work in the Conservation team's annual report.)

Were they then stopped by their bosses in the council's "Regeneration" directorate, fearful that if the pub was listed, the need to keep the whole building would stymie the plans for "Brixton Central Site Phase II" ? This is exactly was what the guy I was talking to was going on about.

PM me and I'll tell you who he is if you like. He certainly seemed to have a very good knowledge of goings on the area and may be able to shed light on a few things.

memespring

28-09-2005, 11:21

Glad we have cleared that up. :)

The only way it would already be listed is if an organised (ha!) pressure group of residents etc had made sure that it happened and that is EXTREMELY unlikely. I have certainly never heard of any such thing having occurred. It was a pub, then it was shut, then it was a squat and now it's empty again. No one has tried to list it in that time. The council wouldn't have done it off its own back for the reasons rabbie explains.

You might be able to get the Electric Avenue Residents Group and Electric Mansions Tennants Group to support it getting listed.

Although I think there is some apprehension about what Brady's might reopen 'as' because of noise and people pissing up Electric Lane.

IntoStella

28-09-2005, 11:25

This is exactly was what the guy I was talking to was going on about. You said this local oracle told you it was already listed. That isn't what rabbie said, is it? :confused:

I agree with rabbie that the council might well have lost an application for listing down the back of a filing cabinet, which is why it would most probably only happen if local people kept up the pressure, but that is not the same as losing existing records of an actual listing, which would be absolutely stupid even by Lambeth standards.

editor

28-09-2005, 11:30

Enough of the emotional blackmail already. :rolleyes:
It's got nothing to do with "emotional blackmail".

I'm just not prepared to put up with your sneering put downs. It's not constructive, it's distracting and frankly, it pisses me off.

And already you're posting up the 'rolleyes' emoticons!

I can't work with people like that, and seeing as this has happened at a very early stage, I'll leave you to it because prolonged personal squabbles aren't going to help the fight to re-open Bradys.

I wish you - and others - the best of luck and will be happy to help promote any fund raisers etc at a later date if required.

IntoStella

28-09-2005, 11:30

You might be able to get the Electric Avenue Residents Group and Electric Mansions Tennants Group to support it getting listed.

Although I think there is some apprehension about what Brady's might reopen 'as' because of noise and people pissing up Electric Lane. Good points. Local residents would have to be reassured that any plans for the site would make things better for them, if anything, not worse. Better in the sense that more law abiding citizens around late at night, and more 'community atmosphere', helps to prevent crime, for example.

editor

28-09-2005, 11:33

"this local oracle"Why try and belittle me in this manner? What are you trying to prove?

Oh well. No matter. I'm out of here.

IntoStella

28-09-2005, 11:34

It's got nothing to do with "emotional blackmail".

I'm just not prepared to put up with your sneering put downs. It's not constructive, it's distracting and frankly, it pisses me off. And the 'rolleyes' emoticons are already out!

I can't work with people like that, and seeing as this has happened at a very early stage, I'll leave you to it because prolonged personal squabbles aren't going to help the fight to re-open Bradys.

I wish you - and others - the best of luck and will be happy to help promote any fund raisers etc at a later date. Sorry, is this a campaign to reopen Brady's or to nurture your eggshell ego? I already told you we had checked the records and that the building, including the clocktower, is not listed. Spreading misinformation is not helpful to anybody. Whatever this bloke said, it was not the same as what Rabbie said. Rabbie did not say the building was already listed.

IntoStella

28-09-2005, 11:34

Why try and belittle me in this manner? What are you trying to prove?

Oh well. No matter. I'm out of here.
Get over yourself.

IntoStella

28-09-2005, 11:38

"Some 'fantasist' bloke in a pub", eh?
By the way, that is not what I said. You go absolutely spare if people misquote you. Why not apply your own expectations to yourself?

IntoStella

29-09-2005, 12:15

The meeting was extremely useful and encouraging. We were even briefly graced with the presence of cllr Sawdon.

And I found out just how far bob is in league with the devil.
;) ;)

Mr Retro

30-09-2005, 10:36

Bradys is in Ferndale Ward isin't it?

Cllr Paul McGlone helped us in our appeal against the duke of edinburgh. He is a very nice guy (staying with us until 1am last night) and I reckon he would be supportive of your campagn and a good person to have on your side.

Bob

30-09-2005, 10:46

<anorak> Coldharbour ward. Boundary is Brixton road.

Brixton Hatter

13-10-2005, 09:10

Community groups should be given the right to buy disused or derelict council property to build parks, children’s playgrounds, youth centres and food cooperatives, David Milliband, the local government minister said yesterday. The Guardian writes that Mr Milliband claimed there was as much as £10 billion worth of unused or under-used council land in England and the development of such land by the community would not only help regeneration but “help generate trust amongst residents and so establish norms of decent behaviour and respect”.

Even the Government want a community centre at Brady's!

lang rabbie

13-10-2005, 10:00

Even the Government want a community centre at Brady's!

It was a very bizarre speech not all of which may be similarly popular with some regular posters...

Give community groups right to buy derelict land, says minister (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/localgovernment/story/0,9061,1590923,00.html)

Mr Miliband also said he wanted to change the balance between social housing and owner occupation in Britain's poorest neighbourhoods from the current 80/20 ratio to 50/50.
:rolleyes:

Yesterday's Financial Times had a clearer indication of what might be proposed.

The government will look at promoting local authorities' powers to dispose of assets below "best value" at a discount of up to £2m to bodies that serve the local community.

"Community right to buy" is being studied by a working group on neigh- bourhoods, comprising central and local government and voluntary organisations. It is due to report before January.

50 Foot Queenie

16-10-2005, 10:32

It was a very bizarre speech not all of which may be similarly popular with some regular posters...

Give community groups right to buy derelict land, says minister (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/localgovernment/story/0,9061,1590923,00.html)

Yesterday's Financial Times had a clearer indication of what might be proposed.

This is my first post, so if this doesn't quite work, please forgive me.

First, I should out myself as working for central government, in fact for ODPM (and therefore indirectly for Mr Milliband). But I would love to see Bradys, and in fact the whole surrounding area, be brought back into use. When swimming in the Recreation Centre, you get a great view of the clock tower, and it is a crying shame it's in the state it's in.

Local authorities are obliged by law to dispose of any land they own at full market value - if they wish to sell at an undervalue, they must get the consent of the Secretary of State (ie Big John). The government though have given a general consent to all local authorities enabling them to dispose of land at an undervalue provided that the undervalue is less than £2million. That figure was set in order to give power back to local authorities to decide on disposals at an undervalue (the most usual reason for selling at an undervalue is of course to further some community purpose), because local authorities should be accountable to the local community for decisions like this.

All David Milliband said about the Community Right to Buy was that they have it in Scotland, and that the government will look at this as an option. If they decide that they do want to introduce such a right, in order to bring it forward, legislation would be needed. And I can tell you that there aren't any bills in the immediate offing for ODPM. So it's likely to be at least 2-3 years before any such right would be in existence - there has to be all the policy exploration first, then a bill takes about a year to go through, and then you have to implement the bill after it's passed to make it work. So it's probably not worth getting too excited about this as any kind of option for Brady's.

So, the upshot of all this is that power for disposing of the site at an undervalue lies solely with the council, and the government have got nothing to do with it - lobbying should focus on the Council. That doesn't mean that it isn't worth getting the local MP on board, even though Keith would have no actual power to make the council do anything, if he was behind the project surely that would help? I don't know how helpful or active he is locally though...

Bob

16-10-2005, 11:01

Welcome to the boards. :)

Have a cracksquirrel. Or hobnob - the option's yours. :D

IntoStella

17-10-2005, 16:55

I have finally got around to making, as promised, a pledge at pledgebank.com to get off the ground the campaign to list Brady's clocktower and bring the building back into community use.

It's at:

www.pledgebank.com/bradys

Please sign up for the sake of this beautiful, much loved and much-neglected Brixton landmark. You don't have to be a local resident. :)

List Brady's thread here (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=3679392)

playghirl

22-09-2006, 08:45

I heard a rumour that Sean ( previous Queen owner) and Seamus ( wINDMILL)
ARE planning on buying Bradys and reopening. Has anyone heard these rumours?

gabi

22-09-2006, 08:47

Well I heard another rumour that the windmills getting sold so possibly.

Mrs Magpie

22-09-2006, 08:49

No, I thought the council had earmarked it for the luxury flats route with shops in the basement....anyway, there are threads about it knocking about...I'll see if there are any amongst the thousands of threads accidentally shunted to the mods forum, and if there are, I'll shunt them back into this forum.....

gaijingirl

22-09-2006, 08:51

oooh... that's a bit exciting!

Mrs Magpie

22-09-2006, 08:52

Well I heard another rumour that the windmills getting sold so possibly.Well, all the Lambeth Council owned council estate pubs leases came up for renewal last year or the year before (Hero of Switzerland, Robin Hood & Little John, Windmill etc) but as far as I know the existing landlords renewed the leases.

DJWrongspeed

22-09-2006, 09:05

whatever, it's a bloomin disgrace that Bradys has been closed so long, given the tube fukup it could have quite happily run as a venue for years. :mad:

editor

22-09-2006, 09:15

I heard a rumour that Sean ( previous Queen owner) and Seamus ( wINDMILL)
ARE planning on buying Bradys and reopening. Has anyone heard these rumours?I've heard nothing I'm afraid, but if I had the money I'd buy the venue tomorrow. It could be a *great* local music/entertainment venue.

Mrs Magpie

22-09-2006, 09:18

btw, couldn't find any Brady's posts in the mods forum

aurora green

22-09-2006, 09:19

Yeah, It's a brilliant venue, and indeed a disgrace it's been left idle for so very long. I really really hope that it re-opens as a venue, and isn't developed into more bloody flats.

editor

22-09-2006, 09:24

Yeah, It's a brilliant venue, and indeed a disgrace it's been left idle for so very long. I really really hope that it re-opens as a venue, and isn't developed into more bloody flats.I can't see who'd want to live in a building that contains a built in railway bridge!

editor

22-09-2006, 09:26

Incidentally, in my fantasy ideal venues for Offline, number one was Cooltan, with Brady's at number two!

Crispy

22-09-2006, 09:27

Just how much money would be needed?
*hair brained schemes run amok in crispy's brain*

playghirl

22-09-2006, 09:27

cheers..... mind you I do not think I could cope with that lifestyle again!!!!!:D

aurora green

22-09-2006, 09:28

Bradys would be so perfect for offline!

Dubversion

22-09-2006, 09:29

Bradys would be so perfect for offline!

if seamus let me in :D

Mrs Magpie

22-09-2006, 09:29

editor

22-09-2006, 09:33

I've had a bit of a rummage in the dustier corners of this forum and found these...

www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=165223
www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=135755
www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=130010I've merged one of the older threads into this one (I haven't bothered with the Pledgebank one as that now seems a bit of a cul-de-sac)

Crispy

22-09-2006, 09:48

Seriously though, how much money would it take to buy/lease brady's?

Giles

22-09-2006, 10:04

The freehold would be a million or two, I suspect, maybe more. That's if the council would sell it, and I bet they wouldn't - they would always have half an eye on "future plans" for the area and wouldn't let it go.

It needs a lot spending on it, and you would need to make some use of the residential above, if only to help with the mortgage payments on your 2 million pound loan......

Leasing it: don't know.

I would love to own that place - it would make a brilliant venue.

Giles..

Crispy

22-09-2006, 10:12

http://www.netsoc.ucd.ie/~danj/Crews/Troi.jpg
I sense anger. Anger and frustration over a problem that will not let itself be solved.

linerider

22-09-2006, 11:34

I heard a rumour that Sean ( previous Queen owner) and Seamus ( wINDMILL)
ARE planning on buying Bradys and reopening. Has anyone heard these rumours?
Isn't Seamus involved in buying a place in Streatham at least that's what his wife told me and boy was she unhappy about it.

playghirl

24-09-2006, 13:26

I heard last night he did buy The Bedford..... up in sTREATHAM

memespring

24-09-2006, 16:14

Just how much money would be needed?
*hair brained schemes run amok in crispy's brain*

Convincing the council is probably more important than the money (someone told me they threw £million at the dogstar once? could well be bollocks though).

The lottery bid and market tidy up seems to have focused their attention on this side of town recently. Plus all the parties seem to be shiying away from the "cafe culture" stuff recently since they pretty much accepted it has caused alot of unwelcome problems (drug touirism etc). So maybe they could be talked round if there was a decent hairbrained scheme?

editor

24-09-2006, 16:22

. So maybe they could be talked round if there was a decent hairbrained scheme?I've got a decent hairbrained scheme and know lots of people who would want to get involved. Who do I write to?!

bluestreak

25-09-2006, 11:43

harebrainedschemes@lambeth.gov.uk

Crispy

25-09-2006, 11:52

harebrainedschemes@lambeth.gov.uk
I think that resolves to bottomlesspitofdespair@lambeth.gov.uk (much like benefits@lambeth.gov.uk or planning@lambeth.gov.uk)

bluestreak

25-09-2006, 12:04

oh, i disagree. hasn't it been conclusively shown that they'll hand out cash to hare-brained schemes, unlike benefits?

playghirl

14-10-2006, 19:05

Well who knows... it is a waiting game I guess.

Fenian

21-10-2006, 16:50

cheers..... mind you I do not think I could cope with that lifestyle again!!!!!:D
;)

editor

05-11-2006, 15:27

Just an update to say that there are some quite advanced proposals to reopen Brady's being sorted out.

I might be helping them out, but can't say too much right now - but it's looking good!

More details later!

Crispy

05-11-2006, 15:33

Good news!

DJWrongspeed

05-11-2006, 17:36

looks hopeful, it's a tragic waste of a building to leave it to rot for soooo long?:mad:

dogmatique

05-11-2006, 20:21

Never before has a much loved building been in such dire need of some love and attention, and a PAINT JOB! Before it falls irreperably into disrepair...

Good luck with the plans!

Giles

06-11-2006, 10:48

Let's hope something finally happens! I remember being shown round the place when it was squatted, and being amazed at the size of it - and sad that such a great venue was being left to rot.

Giles..

editor

06-11-2006, 10:53

Mind you, the disgrace of Brady's being left to rot is nowhere near as bad as the outrageous fate of Cooltan: once a hugely popular and thriving community resource, it's been left to slowly fall apart for ten years for no good reason.

Crispy

06-11-2006, 10:58

Is the structure still sound at Brady's? The one thing that would doom any project would be a bad surveyor's report saying "basicly, you need to tear it down" - I don't see any trees in gutters or collapsed roofs, but those sort of things could scupper any plans...

William of Walworth

06-11-2006, 21:05

editor

14-11-2006, 12:38

More info:

A presentation will be made to the Brixton Town Centre Forum on Monday 20th November at 7pm in the Karibu Centre (formally the Abeng Centre), Gresham Road opposite Brixton Police Station.

Here we will set out our proposals to restore the Railway Hotel (Brady's) as a community Venue and Arts Centre.

http://www.abcbrixton.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=34

citydreams

14-11-2006, 12:43

ah, the Brixton Urban Movement is back! Up the BUM!

Thanks for the link :)

zenie

14-11-2006, 12:43

Looks good :)

Crispy

14-11-2006, 12:47

Good effort!

I'm by no means a fully-qualified expert, but I would be willing to give my time as an architectural technician if it's needed. I know building regs etc. fairly well and can probably bend the ear of everal others in my office.

Brixton Hatter

17-11-2006, 14:28

Looks good. A decent collection of local groups have put this together. You can download the 3-page proposal by clicking here (http://www.abcbrixton.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=5)

The proposal calls for a wide public consultation and talks about all the potential benefits, but points out that any "redevelopment would need to dovetail into [Lambeth's] existing regeneration scheme." I'm sure this could be a sticking point with Lambeth... but you never know.

They say a priority is getting the building listed [what would the implications of that be?] and that a community arts centre would be an appropriate use. A social enterprise business model could make the centre viable.

Gramsci

18-11-2006, 17:23

Convincing the council is probably more important than the money (someone told me they threw £million at the dogstar once? could well be bollocks though).

The lottery bid and market tidy up seems to have focused their attention on this side of town recently. Plus all the parties seem to be shiying away from the "cafe culture" stuff recently since they pretty much accepted it has caused alot of unwelcome problems (drug touirism etc). So maybe they could be talked round if there was a decent hairbrained scheme?

They did throw £££ at the the Dogstar.Not so mch Cafe Culture thats the problem(nothing wrong with the Lounge) as that in the hands of New Labour "entrepreneurs" like Dogstar Larry CC was transformed into noisy late night clubs which were dead in the daytime.

Gramsci

18-11-2006, 17:40

More info:

Ill be there for other reasons.The Council will be also making a presentation about the new administrations plans for central Brixton and the remaining Council owned assets in central Brixton.I assume this means the Rec,housing and land in central Brixton.

William of Walworth

18-11-2006, 21:23

Looks good. A decent collection of local groups have put this together. You can download the 3-page proposal by clicking here (http://www.abcbrixton.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=5)

An interesting proposal, indeed ... :confused:

What do I get? This :

PDF-1.6
%âãÏÓ
43 0 obj <</Linearized 1/L 95799/O 45/E 59167/N 3/T 94897/H [ 556 239]>>
endobj

xref
43 13
0000000016 00000 n
0000000795 00000 n
0000000895 00000 n
0000001054 00000 n
0000001205 00000 n
0000001607 00000 n
0000001834 00000 n
0000001910 00000 n
0000001984 00000 n
0000002488 00000 n
0000002522 00000 n
0000005190 00000 n
0000000556 00000 n
trailer
<</Size 56/Prev 94888/Root 44 0 R/Info 42 0 R/ID[<35E126B80ACD11DB875D000D93B4C582><5BA78B9E0ACD11DB875D000D93B4C582>]>>
startxref

Erm .... :p

lang rabbie

18-11-2006, 21:54

An interesting proposal, indeed ... :confused:

What do I get? This :

Erm .... :p

Thankfully, no problem for me now on my laptop, but I bet my old steam-powered home PC couldn't have coped with anything like this produced in QuarkXpress6 and the published in Adobe 7.0 format (This looks like nu-media professional overkill given that nothing in the document layout couldn't have been done in MS Word!)

Plain text follows as a public service to those still struggling ...

OUTLINE PROPOSAL

To find a new sustainable use for “The Railway Hotel”, an otherwise redundant heritage building in Brixton Town Centre.

The Railway Hotel is a valuable asset to Brixton, contributing to its historic identity and beauty. ABC Brixton would like to explore the possibility of developing a community-led, social enterprise solution for its re-use. We believe that the regeneration of this historic building could not only improve the quality of the town’s built environment but also provide facilities to address some of the social and economic needs of our community.

1. BACKGROUND

2. INITIAL TASKS

2.1 Researching historical and architectural importance
This is the key to making a case to both the owner and grant funding bodies about the significance of the building. The six-sided clock tower is especially interesting, being one of only two examples in Europe. At present, The Railway Hotel is not listed; achieving listed status would be a priority.

2.2 Researching possible new uses and economic viability

A community arts centre seems an appropriate use considering the historic and inherent creative community surrounding the building. The cultural industries moreover are recognised as known drivers of wider economic growth and successful regeneration; in the context of a community/leisure facility this may represent the best way to achieve economic viability. A social enterprise business model could ensure this viability and keep social benefits intact.

2.3 Conducting a feasibility assessment

This would establish the building’s market value, its condition and the cost of its refurbishment.

2.4 Forming a partnership

To implement the project. This would include:
- ABC Brixton
- representatives of local community groups
- historical/amenity groups such as The Brixton Society
- a representative of Lambeth Council regeneration department
- specialist heritage organisations such as The Prince’s Regeneration Trust
- a conservation architect
- local business people
- an accountant
- a lawyer

3. A SHARED GOVERNANCE STANDARD

It is proposed that a governance standard be applied to the project based on the five freedoms as set out by Nobel laureate economist Amartya Sen. This will:
- enable a process of engagement that supports the ongoing opportunities and rights for individuals, the community and for stakeholders.
- assure an inclusive and manageable consultation process.
- provide a means to identify obstructions to individuals and stakeholders and to the project itself. These obstructions can then be prioritised and overturned.
In practice this means that every step of the way in the process of restoring the Railway Hotel opportunities are re-discovered for including the community, not just in consultation but practically increasing their capabilities, knowledgebase and skill.

4. ABOUT ABC

ABC Brixton Ltd. is a charitable community regeneration company formed in 2004 by residents of Loughborough Park and central Brixton. It is a company limited by guarantee.

For further information, email: info@abcbrixton.org

lang rabbie

18-11-2006, 22:02

editor

20-11-2006, 18:43

I won't be able to make this tonight because I've got a bastardo deadline to meet, but if anyone who's going fancies writing a short report for the site, that would be grand.

Crispy

20-11-2006, 19:17

Arsebiscuits, I could have gone.
Bit late now :(

linerider

20-11-2006, 19:37

I'm not on line at the moment(at least not at home) but will get involved soon.LONG LIVE BRADYS:cool:

citydreams

20-11-2006, 22:30

I won't be able to make this tonight because I've got a bastardo deadline to meet, but if anyone who's going fancies writing a short report for the site, that would be grand.

An application for listing Bradys has been made with English Heritage and a request made for Lambeth council to prevent any sell-off of the site for 20 months. This depsite an obvious interest from the owner of the Fridge nightclub, who made a passionate plea to the Brixton Town Centre Forum that rested soley on his 20 years of experience.

It also seems that the LDA have an expressed an interest in the site, but no details were forthcoming at the meeting.

ABC Brixton's proposal was the epitome of social inclusion. Social enterprise, incubation and community interest companies were the main watchwords. I felt it was delivered with real conviction.

Were ABC Brixton to win the support of the council we can expect a restaurant/bar on the ground floor with space set aside for music and theatre.
The first floor would be centered around youth and art projects, with Brockwell park based Whippersnappers already lined up as part of the ABC partnership.
Business space could be rented by the hour on the second floor.
A more expansive description can be found in the proposal (http://www.abcbrixton.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=6) on the ABC Brixton website.

While no mention was made of the exact size of the piles of money that would be needed to redevelop Bradys, we were left with the impression that money is available either through an agreement with the Prince’s Regeneration Trust
or via Blacks Ltd., operators of a private members club in Soho, who have formed a partnership with ABC Brixton.

The next steps are centered around a meeting with representatives of Lambeth Council to agree a Feasibility Study Brief and arrangements for funding in January 2007.

Not related to Brady's, but my favourite quip of the night was "..why do we always feel life we're banging our head against a wall.. that Lambeth council won't even build".

Gramsci

02-12-2006, 14:09

I do wish them well.

Railway Hotel Initial Partnership (http://www.abcbrixton.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=82&Itemid=34)

But my mind is already boggling if some of the personalities involved with some of those organisations have to work together as a partnership.

Thats a good point.Its one of my reservations of this proposal.As there is "private" involvement I can see it just ending up in the end as a bar/nightclub with supercial "community use".As business people are more savvy for the main chance.

Gramsci

02-12-2006, 14:18

I went to the Brixton Town Centre Forum meeting.It was well attended for a forum meeting.Among the topics discussed was ABCs proposals.Someone from ABC presented the proposals which have already been outlined on this thread.Here are a few points from the meeting:

1)There are 3 parties interested in Bradys.The businessman who started the Fridge said he could offer the money now for Bradys as a "commercial venture".The LDA have expressed an interest in using Bradys for a mixed use scheme.And ABC have their own proposal.

2)Shane(Green Party) asked how much the Council were spending on security per year on Bradys.(No officer there to give an answer).

3)The Electric Avenue residents thought ABCs proposals were a good idea but had concerns about noise from live music etc.

Gramsci

02-12-2006, 14:47

Just thought that people might want summary of other topics discussed.

1)There was someone from the Brighton Terrace drugs rehab centre.This still seems to be causing concern.Though the discussion went off on a tangent about general drug use in Brixton.Seems to me the centre has unfortunately become a focus for a lot of drugs issues that are not its fault.As much as some of the residents say they want drug users to be helped I got the distinct impression that a lot of people just wanted them cleared off Brixton no questions asked.
Know that New Labour are back in power there is more emphasis on "ASBOs" and what a local businessman called "socialising programmes".All very 1984:rolleyes: to me.New Labour come out with a hard line on Law and Order as they say this is what peoples real concerns are.However this encourages people to be unsympathetic to drug rehabilitation-as I saw at the meeting.To her credit the local Labour councillor present did support the Brighton Terrace scheme.However I dont think what New Labour call "Triangulation" works.

2)Now that Labour run the Council again the regeneration plans for Brixton are being relooked at.Two officers said that:

a)There had been enough consultation already.Previous consultation would be "built on" through for example "visualisations":rolleyes: (is this Scientology).They would look back over previous consultation and also also get Arup to update an extend there East Brixton proposals to the whole of Brixton.The consultation on Brixton Central sq would provide officers with a "model" for community participation.(But IMO that consultation was crap-whatever your views on a new sq).

b)The regeneration plan would use a "Holistic" approach.That sounds like Council speak to me:rolleyes:.There would be a detailed delivery plan-overall structure and individual projects.

c)By March 2007 there would be detailed proposals for the Council to agree on.

d)Various people said that consultation was not really involving residents.I agree.Seems to me from what the officers said that the Council will produce overall plan then consult us on minor details.

e)The officers gave no specific details on what would happen to specific assets.After questioning the local Councillor present revealed that the Rec long term future is still not secure.This was a surprise to me as at the last election the Labour group supported keeping the Rec,against the Lib/Dems who looked like they might demolish it to sell the land and build a smaller one nearby.