View Full Version : Brian Paddick in Stockwell
fat hamster
24-07-2005, 19:17
Link here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4711989.stm) to BBC report about Brian Paddick's meeting with community representatives in Stockwell today.
Comments?
Pickman's model
24-07-2005, 19:18
i wonder which "latin american leaders" were there.
Pickman's model
24-07-2005, 19:22
it warms the cockles of my heart to learn that the cops who killed the poor man are being cared for.
i would prefer to read, though, that they had been suspended from duty pending an investigation.
Rocket Romano
24-07-2005, 19:23
oops
HarrisonSlade
24-07-2005, 19:23
When he says that he can't guarantee a similar tragedy won't happen again, is the Deputy Assistant Comissioner telling us that he has no control over the people he is supposed to be in charge of? Or is he telling us that air tight security in London goes against everybody but the MET?
Pickman's model
24-07-2005, 19:24
When he says that he can't guarantee a similar tragedy won't happen again, is the Duputy Assistant Comissioner telling us that he has no control over the people he is supposed to be in charge of? Or is he telling us that air tight security in London goes against everybody but the MET?or both?
i would prefer to read, though, that they had been suspended from duty pending an investigation.
I kind of assumed he already was !
Isn't it normal practice to suspend someone who's involved in a shooting until that investigation happens ?? Whatever about the moral position of having an officer out and about who "may" have committed a serious crime, I'd think the Met would be shit scared of having even more bad publicity and keep the guy on ice for a while.
Having said that, these are post-Kratos days. Perhaps you get a gold star now, who bloody knows what's in the guidelines now :(
Isn't it normal practice to suspend someone who's involved in a shooting until
No it isn't. They will be put on other duties.
it warms the cockles of my heart to learn that the cops who killed the poor man are being cared for.
i would prefer to read, though, that they had been suspended from duty pending an investigation.
I can't help thinking we need as many cops on the ground as possible, especially given the depth of intel briefings these lot must have had.
In normal times, definitely - suspension - but these ain't normal times.
We are effectively at war.
The meeting took place after Stockwell MP Kate Hoey had asked police to reassure members of the local community that a similar incident would not happen again
Wa-hey Kate Hoey has done something (vaguely) useful instead of just chairing the Countryside Alliance.
detective-boy
24-07-2005, 21:05
Isn't it normal practice to suspend someone who's involved in a shooting until that investigation happens ??
As has already been noted, not always.
What does happen is that an initial review is carried out and if there are any issues which appear of concern then a decision about removal from specific duties (e.g. firearms) or from duty as a whole is considered.
Police officers are people to, and they have the same rights as anyone else. If treated unlawfully they may sue their employer themselves (as happened in the recent racist comment case where three officers received damages for the way they were treated during an investigation). Although the impact of suspension / non-suspension on the public or any part of the public is taken into account, it is by no means the only aspect.
In relation to something like firearms or driving, the psychological state of someone involved in such an incident often means that they are unfit for the duty for a significant period in any event.
Donna Ferentes
24-07-2005, 21:06
I'm not sure that suspension on full pay would be in any way unlawful.
Stobart Stopper
24-07-2005, 21:21
No it isn't. They will be put on other duties.
I hope not, I should imagine they are in a safe house somewhere, away from the lynch mob, oops sorry, I meant the media.
Of the officers involved in the shooting, Mr Paddick said: "Clearly those police officers are being cared for. They've been visited by senior officers which they were very grateful for.
"We will give them all the support we can."
Awww....
Bless.
Donna Ferentes
24-07-2005, 21:23
the lynch mob, oops sorry, I meant the media.Really? The media are behaving like a lynch mob? We must be viewing different media.
Stobart Stopper
24-07-2005, 21:25
Really? The media are behaving like a lynch mob? We must be viewing different media.
The Sun must be itching to get their hands on the names of these officers, and the Guardian.
A couple of weeks ago people were kissking Brian Paddicks ass on these boards - telling him what a fine bunch of men the police were. Now we're back to them all being cunts.
Donna Ferentes
24-07-2005, 21:26
The Sun must be itching to get their hands on the names of these officers, and the Guardian.I somehow doubt that either paper will be calling for them to be strung up. Even metaphorically.
Stobart Stopper
24-07-2005, 21:27
A couple of weeks ago people were kissking Brian Paddicks ass on these boards - telling him what a fine bunch of men the police were. Now we're back to them all being cunts.
I did say this would happen, can't remember which thread it was though.
crimethInc
24-07-2005, 21:28
wrap them up in cotton wool
Bernie Gunther
24-07-2005, 21:28
I don't think it's appropriate to lynch individual cops, they should get a fair trial where they can explain why it was necessary to shoot a harmless Brazilian. Let's remember though, whose decisions led us into this awful mess.
Where is Tony anyway? What foul pack of lies will he tell us this time when he finally emerges from his hiding place? What smarmy lies will ooze from him?
Stobart Stopper
24-07-2005, 21:31
Where is Tony anyway? What foul pack of lies will he tell us this time when he finally emerges from his hiding place? What smarmy lies will ooze from him?
He always hides away when something like this happens. All of it is his fault,IMO, just like that cop who was stabbed to death in Manchester. Now he can't face the music.
treelover
24-07-2005, 21:34
yeah, Blair is usualy omnipresent at times at national crisis, but has suddenly become invisible this last few days, perhaps the shooting of a innocent foreign national isn't one. Indeed, the other Blair, the Met Commissoner who uptil now, hadnt put a foot wrong, did apologise for the action, but defended his men(as he must do) and says it may happen again
btw polls on the sattelite channels, etc, are all showing majorities in favour of shoot to kill,
detective-boy
24-07-2005, 23:07
I'm not sure that suspension on full pay would be in any way unlawful.
The process could be challenged at an Employment Tribunal in certain circumstances. Automatic suspension is also frowned upon as good HR practice (by HR professionals, not police management). There is also the need to consider other unintended consequences, e.g. armed officers refusing to carry firearms if not supported by management when doing the job they were paid to do. Getting that "support" right is a very hard line to tread (see comments elsewhere about Brian Paddicks comments about the support for the officers).
treelover
24-07-2005, 23:15
What rubbish, the deaths are terrible, but it demeans what other generations went through to call some terrorists cells a war, are you playing the State's game, PK?
perspective dear boy, perspective
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/
'We are effectively at war.'
When he says that he can't guarantee a similar tragedy won't happen again, is the Deputy Assistant Comissioner telling us that he has no control over the people he is supposed to be in charge of? Or is he telling us that air tight security in London goes against everybody but the MET?
No - they're saying there's no guarantees anymore. Not that there ever have been any.
bristle-krs
24-07-2005, 23:41
I hope not, I should imagine they are in a safe house somewhere, away from the lynch mob, oops sorry, I meant the media.
interesting. how do you square this and other comments on this thread with the likes of these of yours from friday and saturday?
Dickhead chat show host on BBC LDN immediately assumes the police have fucked up.
This thread is depressing me. At the moment nobody really knows what happened at Stockwell this morning so whats the point in all this speculation and laying the blame on the Police?
Because it's trendy, makes people look hard.
you were one of those who seemed perfecly willing to take the initial police/'authorities' narrative at face value, yet now you seem to be transferring responsibility onto 'the meejah' for, quite naturally, wanting to know more.
whatever your opinion of the news media, it wasn't hacks pumping 5(?) bullets into that chap's head.
there were serious questions raised on friday. those questions remained unanswered. the news media have a role in getting accurate answers to them.
HarrisonSlade
24-07-2005, 23:52
No - they're saying there's no guarantees anymore. Not that there ever have been any.So you are saying that Brian Paddick has no control over the people who is supposed to be in charge of. Well, that's anarchy for ya.
The process could be challenged at an Employment Tribunal in certain circumstances. Automatic suspension is also frowned upon as good HR practice (by HR professionals, not police management). There is also the need to consider other unintended consequences, e.g. armed officers refusing to carry firearms if not supported by management when doing the job they were paid to do. Getting that "support" right is a very hard line to tread (see comments elsewhere about Brian Paddicks comments about the support for the officers).
Suspension on full pay whilst an act of potential gross misconduct is investigated is entirely HR (further, accepted) best practice - and required to avoid the challenge that you mention. And how much more potentially "gross misconduct" is this? We won't know until it's investigated. Until then s/he (still don't know gender etc, facts missing) together with those involved should be suspended pending the outcome of the investigation. And employment related "fairness" will also hinge around speed and thoroughness of investigation, right to respond, statutory and contractual rights etc.
I don't presume to comment on the other considerations you've mentioned, which of course are major ones. You know how the police etc work and your postings have been helpful to point lots of things out. But I will comment on the HR/Tribunal stuff!!
october_lost
25-07-2005, 00:51
The issue of the Brazilian getting shot was posted on a local board, and some had the credibility to say that just because the guy behaved inapropriately (i.e. he paniced) he deserved to get shot :eek: well I never, apologists for police brutality. I think the cops responsible albiet have a hard task to follow, should be called to task for shooting the said fellow, and like Bernie Gunther said, were in this shit because of Tony Blair, domestic terrorism is the price we pay for foreign imperialism it seems....
What rubbish, the deaths are terrible, but it demeans what other generations went through to call some terrorists cells a war, are you playing the State's game, PK?
perspective dear boy, perspective
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/
'We are effectively at war.'
Roughly 8,500 troops are presently in Iraq, 1,100 in Afghanistan.
No, it's not World War Two, but we are still at war.
Do you ever watch the news treelover?
:confused:
Pickman's model
25-07-2005, 08:56
I can't help thinking we need as many cops on the ground as possible
http://www.londonclasswar.org/images/cops2_big.jpg
:confused:
Roughly 8,500 troops are presently in Iraq, 1,100 in Afghanistan.
No, it's not World War Two, but we are still at war.
Do you ever watch the news treelover?
:confused:
Apparently the war in Iraq ended on May 1st 2003 :confused:
bristle-krs
25-07-2005, 09:14
Apparently the war in Iraq ended on May 1st 2003 :confused:
who won?
kropotkin
25-07-2005, 09:25
who won?
Freedom and Democracy
detective-boy
26-07-2005, 00:04
Suspension on full pay whilst an act of potential gross misconduct is investigated is entirely HR (further, accepted) best practice - and required to avoid the challenge that you mention. And how much more potentially "gross misconduct" is this?
I'm sure you have more knowledge on the ins and outs (the police service is notoriously bad at most HR stuff!).
But describing my experience of application in the police context, your question is effectively where the difficulties have arisen - where the approach (and it has been more than simply the act of suspension but some of the investigative steps taken) has been tantamount to deciding gross misconduct from the outset. I'm not aware of it reaching the stage where suspension cannot be carried out but it is behind the care they take before making the decision.
in the police context ... more than simply the act of suspension but some of the investigative steps taken ... has been tantamount to deciding gross misconduct from the outset
Ah. That'll be down to Russell, Jones and Walker getting creative again, won't it? (Police Federation solicitors.)
detective-boy
26-07-2005, 02:10
Ah. That'll be down to Russell, Jones and Walker getting creative again, won't it? (Police Federation solicitors.)
Are you sure you're not a detective with investigative skills like that ;) :D
invisibleplanet
26-07-2005, 06:18
who won?
Freedom and Democracy
That really is too much.
I certainly hadn't overheard the police one week after the 7/7 bombings inside the Bloomsbury CSI line, talking amongst each other about the breathing difficulties they had experienced as they continued picked bits of people's flesh from the tube tunnels and how stomach-wrenching the smell was.
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