View Full Version : F1 2005 Season Thread
God damn I just realied there's no F1 thread yet and it's the Melbourne GP on Sunday :rolleyes: :eek:
So, quick recap on what's happened in the closed season. Well, the usual - fights between teams and Bernie/Mad Max on who controls what and who gets money. Ferrari have already signed an agreement guarnateeign themselves $67m every season, but in so doing have angered Toyota and Honda who have joined Daimler, BMW and Renault in the GPWC. Seems like that one will run and run.
New regs on aerodynamics and egnies lasting for two races have come into force but not really slowed the cars that dramatically. Minardi may not even make the first GP because they don't have the cash to make the changes. And in the middle of it all we've got a new (old) team - Red Bull F1 who will have everyone's favourite loser DC and Klien driving form them. Klien is in the seat on a race-by-race basis with F3000 champ Luizzi ready to take his seat - give him 3 GPs and I reckon he'll be in.
Jordan have a new management team having been bought out and also have Toyota engines for this season. They also have 2 very promising drivers in Monteiro and the first Indian GP driver Karthikeyan.
Oh yes and there's a new GP in Turkey at yet another Tilke-designed snoreadrome.
So...who do people think will do well?
I think Ferrari might have scrap on their hands. Renault and McLaren both look like they'll be contenders for GP wins from the off.
Prediction - MS to be WDC from Raikkonen and Alonso. Renault to be constructers champions, from Ferrari, McLaren and BAR.
WDC: MS
WCC: Renault
Most GP wins: MS
Most poles: Montoya and MS
Most fast laps: Raikonnen
Most accidents: Sato ;)
Biggest losers: Williams, Toyota
Prediction - MS to be WDC from Raikkonen and Alonso. Renault to be constructers champions, from Ferrari, McLaren and BAR.
WDC: MS
WCC: Renault
Most GP wins: MS
Most poles: Montoya and MS
Most fast laps: Raikonnen
Most accidents: Sato ;)
Biggest losers: Williams, Toyota
This dosen't make much sense. I really can't see Schumacher winning, if Ferrari have such a bad car they lose the WCC.
I don't agree, the Ferrari is the best race car - bearing in mind an engine has to last 2 races and lack of Ferrari engines that have exploded over the last 4 years compared to BMW, Honda and Mercedes.
Problem is that Renault and Mclaren have 2 very strong drivers, so I can see them challenging in the constructers championship, because Ferrari will support MS, but Rubens will not score enough points.
denialworks4me
02-03-2005, 15:42
GO HONDA! Although it will be interesting to see if Sato can hold his engine for two races....
Short answer: testing would seem to indicate a big "no".
He's so quick when the car's working but I think he might struggle - BAR surprised everyone last season, but Renault are on the up, Sauber look pretty good, Williams have something to prove.
I'd love to see a Toyota-powered Jordan beat Ralf. I think Trulli might score a podium this season - probably not unitl Japan though!
Joyceboy
02-03-2005, 16:22
It seems to me that Schumacher could win it driving a go-kart whilst towing a caravan....
:)
denialworks4me
02-03-2005, 16:28
Short answer: testing would seem to indicate a big "no".
He's so quick when the car's working but I think he might struggle - BAR surprised everyone last season, but Renault are on the up, Sauber look pretty good, Williams have something to prove.
I'd love to see a Toyota-powered Jordan beat Ralf. I think Trulli might score a podium this season - probably not unitl Japan though!
Yes testing ......we'll wait for the actual race with the refined car....
Well I reckon McLaren will come through on both championships.
I reckon it'll be a battle between Renault and Ferrari for 2nd in the WCC.
I reckon Williams will struggle, but Heidfeld will give Webber a seriously hard time.
I reckon Toyota will lose it big time, with both Slowmaker and Trulli chucking their toys before Europe.
Jenson will be struggling as well, but a consistent third/fourth when others blow their motors.
Oh, and Massa will leave JV in the dust.
And just to round things off, I reckon Minardi will be refused permission by Ferrari to race in Melbourne and consequently a disgruntled Aussie fan will throw a full tinny (or two) at the red cars during the race, causing serious mayhem.
What happened to the "sport" part of racing? :mad:
What happened to the "sport" part of racing? :mad:
It has largely died out in F1.
If you want a race experience that is cheaper, freer, more fun, more sporting and run with the fans in mind, then I can suggest to you that you get over to France in June for the Le Mans 24 Hours.
Roll on June!
And Go Aston Martin!
GarfieldLeChat
03-03-2005, 06:29
Lemons is always good fun but it's a different kettle of fish to F1 and always has been ...
Has no one mentioned that the british gp isn' going to be championship racing this year... or is it now... i forget...
Yep it's a championship race for the next 5 years. There's a non-championship race scheduled for Brands Hatch I think, but that seems to have gone very quiet.
red rose
03-03-2005, 17:34
Looking very forward to this. I don't think that anyone will give ferrari too much of a challenge but things will be closer at the top. All the changes going on really piss me off. Its got to be the most scripted and controlled sport next to wwe wrestling.
Fingers crossed for an interesting title race :)
schumacher to win again.
no more then 25 overtakings in the whole season excluding lapping.
wont be too bothered if i miss any races, but i wont but too much of a dampener on the thread :D
GarfieldLeChat
04-03-2005, 01:40
Looking very forward to this. I don't think that anyone will give ferrari too much of a challenge but things will be closer at the top. All the changes going on really piss me off. Its got to be the most scripted and controlled sport next to wwe wrestling.
Fingers crossed for an interesting title race :)
the thing is that the easiest rule change they could make to make the sport intresting would be to just abandon fuel stops... if the only thing you could come in for was tyres and the car had to last the whole race it'd make for exciting racing again, rather than the processon which goes on now. Cars would have to be set up for the middle of the race so at the begining the car would be heavy and sluggish and by the end the car would be light and skitish it would also mean an end to the blistering lap after lap of new track record times if you had to save your fuel til the end or risk running out...
Meaning that overtaking would become a necessity again challenges would have to be factored in to runnign your car and it'd save costs in having to produce cars which have to accept refueling...
The easist thing would be to drop the $48m bond for entry so more teams coudl enter, share the money more equally and stop changing the rules every 8 months - it's cost more money this closed season that any other to implement Mad Max's "cost-saving" ideas.
ch750536
04-03-2005, 08:03
Anyone know a good FREE fantasy F1 site? Just tried 3 and they make you pay.
Interesting times from the first 2 sessions - Luizzi showing good form already on a track he's never seen before! Shame he span in the 2nd session. Minardi have been DQ's by the stewards but are launching an appeal.
Positions after first practice:
1 Vitantonio Liuzzi (Ita) Red Bull 1min 25.967secs
2 Pedro de la Rosa (Spa) McLaren + 0.513secs
3 Ricardo Zonta (Bra) Toyota + 1.298
4 Juan Pablo Montoya (Col) McLaren + 1.458
5 David Coulthard (GB) Red Bull + 1.606
6 Felipe Massa (Bra) Sauber + 2.004
7 Mark Webber (Aus) Williams + 2.302
8 Jarno Trulli (Ita) Toyota + 2.399
9 Jenson Button (GB) BAR + 2.665
10 Christian Klien (Aut) Red Bull + 2.867
11 Nick Heidfeld (Ger) Williams + 3.205
12 Rubens Barrichello (Bra) Ferrari + 3.260
13 Ralf Schumacher (Ger) Toyota + 3.318
14 Jacques Villeneuve (Can) Sauber + 3.365
15 Robert Doornbos (Bel) Jordan + 3.403
16 Takuma Sato (Jpn) BAR + 5.397
17 Tiago Monteiro (Por) Jordan + 6.381
18 Narain Karthikeyan (Ind) Jordan + 12.208
19 Kimi Raikkonen (Fin) McLaren no time
20 Michael Schumacher (Ger) Ferrari no time
21 Giancarlo Fisichella (Ita) Renault no time
22 Fernando Alonso (Spa) Renault no time
23 Patrick Freisacher (Aut) Minardi no time
24 Christijan Albers (Hol) Minardi no time
Positions after second practice:
1 Pedro de la Rosa (Spa) McLaren-Mercedes 1:25.376
2 Kimi Raikkonen (Fin) McLaren-Mercedes 1:25.676
3 Nick Heidfeld (Ger) Williams-BMW 1:25.940
4 Michael Schumacher (Ger) Ferrari 1:26.081
5 Juan Pablo Montoya (Col) McLaren-Mercedes 1:26.227
6 Felipe Massa (Bra) Sauber-Petronas 1:26.357
7 Fernando Alonso (Spa) Renault 1:26.562
8 Jenson Button (GB) BAR-Honda 1:26.611
9 Rubens Barrichello (Bra) Ferrari 1:26.639
10 Giancarlo Fisichella (Ita) Renault 1:26.667
11 Ricardo Zonta (Bra) Toyota 1:26.808
12 David Coulthard (GB) Red Bull Racing 1:27.017
13 Ralf Schumacher (Ger) Toyota 1:27.162
14 Jarno Trulli (Ita) Williams-BMW 1:27.195
15 Mark Webber (Aus) Williams-BMW 1:27.329
16 Jacques Villeneuve (Can) Sauber Petronas 1:27.513
17 Christian Klien (Aut) Red Bull Racing 1:27.544
18 Takuma Sato (Jpn) BAR-Honda 1:27.891
19 Narain Karthikeyan (Ind) Jordan 1:28.168
20 Robert Doornbos (Mon) Jordan 1:28.620
21 Vitantonio Liuzzi (Ita) Red Bull Racing 1:28.926
22 Tiago Monteiro (Por) Jordan 1:29.67123
23 Patrick Freisacher (Aut) Minardi no time
24 Christijan Albers (Hol) Minardi no time
Blimey, Webbo 2 secs off Nicks time!
Schumacher's not too far away from the front!
The BAR's are well split up.
And I see Jarno's driving a Williams in that 2nd session!
The McLarens seem to be performing well.
:D Hadn't soppted the Trulli mistake!
Well, this is Webber's home GP, according to himself he's as good as MS - time to let the driving do the talking! Biggest surpirse was the general pace of Red Bull with essentially last year's Jag buit with this years aero package. Luizzi made a mess of the 2nd session but it's pretty clear in testing that he's got the edge on Klien in terms of pace and racing if his F3000 is anythign to go by.
Looking good for McLaren - I often thought De La Rosa was underrated and his testing ability could be key this season. Disappointed by Villeneuve's times - i'm suer he won't like being beaten by Massa!!!
Still qualifying's a different matter and we all know how good MS, JPM and Kimi are over a single lap.
schumacher to win again.
no more then 25 overtakings in the whole season excluding lapping.
wont be too bothered if i miss any races, but i wont but too much of a dampener on the thread :D
Do you know how many overtakings there were in total last season? 307. That's excluding pit stops, lappings & the first lap.
http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=2u495fF24838vU3%40uni-berlin.de&rnum=1
Good point - problem is they never show it on TV because it's teams liek Jag and Jordan overtaking each other.
Seems as if Minardi have been backed by all the teams to take part in the qualifying session tomorrow and won a court order declaring the cars legal. Which is odd, becuase they're blatantly illegal by their own admission :confused:
Seems as if Minardi have been backed by all the teams to take part in the qualifying session tomorrow and won a court order declaring the cars legal. Which is odd, becuase they're blatantly illegal by their own admission :confused:
Really? How so? It's an honest question as my inteerst in F1 has waned slightly over the past couple of seasons and I know virtually nothing about the changes that have happened over the winter.
Seems as if Minardi have been backed by all the teams to take part in the qualifying session tomorrow and won a court order declaring the cars legal. Which is odd, becuase they're blatantly illegal by their own admission :confused:
Well, as I understand it, the court didn't actually declare the cars legal, they said that Minardi could qualify/race, overruling the stewards of the meeting, who had disqualified Minardi from qualifying and thus racing. (Quite justifiaby IMO...)
The Minardi cars are technically illegal, as Stoddy feely admits, but he claims Force Majeure because the FIA changed the rules too late for him to make the necessary changes.
(Other teams took a punt and invested money to make changes before the rules were finally agreed – Stoddy, and Minardi, say they didn't have the money to do the same!)
The problem, for both Ferrari and AFAIK, Red Bull, is that they are worried that their 2005 cars won't be as fast as Minardi's 2004 car, and may lose points. In Ferrari's case, it's the fact that the rules are in place and everyone should abide by them.
It's all bollocks and political smoke and mirrors anyway. The cars are illegal, so if they finish in the points, which I doubt, they will be appealed and almost certainly lose them. It's good PR for Stoddy and bad PR for the villans of the piece, Ferrari. Red Bull are just jumping on the band wagon.
Personally I don't think it would break anyone's balls to allow Minardi to race in what is effectively their "home" race. They won't score points anyway! Ferrari are acting like spoilt brats because the rest of the teams are against them and it's a bunfight F1 simply doesn't need. But there you go.... :rolleyes:
On the other hand, rules is rules and if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. The rules are the same for everybody, and why should Minardi be allowed to race, except for emotional reasons, if they don't meet the rules?
An update from that post of mine above....
Seems Stoddy has really stirred the FIA hornet's nest. The FIA are now suggesting, understandably, that Aussie judges shouldn't be making decisions that override the rules of the accepted world motor sports body. And, (wagging finger mode) if that's likely to happen then Australia may not get anymore world championship events – including rallying etc,.
Bernie has also weighed in with his 2 pence worth: Full story here! (http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=32213)
Meanwhile, F1 commercial rights holder Bernie Ecclestone has weighed in on the increasingly bitter dispute between Stoddart and the FIA, saying that he believes the Australian should quit the sport.
“Paul’s been a bit of a nuisance since day one, but we have protected him,” Ecclestone told The Sun. “Regretfully, there is now no place in Formula 1 for someone like him. If you can’t sustain running a team then you should get out.
“That’s precisely what dear old Eddie Jordan did, and that’s what Paul should be doing. This is an expensive game to be sitting in on and if you can’t afford the ante you shouldn’t take part in the school.”
Here is a good explanation of the Melbourne farce! (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns14368.html)
Wowbagger
05-03-2005, 23:49
The F1 grid! Is upside down! The F1 grid is upside down!
Well, I'll be watching in just over an hour. The question is, how long will it take me to fall asleep?
Red Faction
06-03-2005, 04:03
who would have predicted that?!?!
very interesting race
1.fisichella
2.barichello
3.alonso
4.coultard
hmm
very interesting indeed
Cracking race compared to last year's procession. R
Reckon the new rules re: one set of tyres for qualifying & race could be interesting. Although I'm sure they were saying on t'box that under certain circumstances, eg a badly worn tyre, it can be replaced. This does not, however, apply to punctures. Thought it would make more sense to give the stop-go-penalty to those who can't preserve their tyres rather than unfortunate peeps who get a puncture?
Red Faction
06-03-2005, 05:31
makes you wonder tho- michael schumacher- the greatest driver in the world
didnt get into the points zone at all
he was nowhere near dreaming of a podium place when he crashed out
and why did he crash out?
cos he forced heidfeld onto the verge- fool- he knew- or at least should have known what was going to happen
Monteiro seems to be already in the glorious path of Lamy and Matos Chaves - second, starting from last.
whopee.
I felt a biot sorry for the Jordan boys TBH - the car is a stinker and they've put two rookies in to detract from it.
I thought Albers was the most impressive rookie - his first qualy was a gutsy performance in a very poor car. I suspect he'll be on his way to Sauber at some point.
Good GP - very weird to see cars not having their tyres changed, but Fisi was in control of that race and the Renault is backing its testing times with great performance and looking after its tyres.
Thought Williams, Toyota, McLaren were all disappointing.
red rose
07-03-2005, 15:06
Not so much of the normal silliness there normally is at the first race what with reliability issues but the next grands prix will be an entirely different matter I reckon.
Interesting tactic by BAR at the end of the race
Favourite bit of the grands prix was the ITV reporter in the pits says "Yes James I'm down here at the BAR garage and the irony of being stuck behind jaques villeneuve and unable to pass him is not lost on them" :D
Red Faction
07-03-2005, 15:59
The danger of threatening to remove motorsport from Australia is a very risky move because the legal systems in civilised countries across the world would probably reach the same decision as the Supreme Court in Melbourne.
I dont understand how.
Minardi want to race, minardi are breaking the rules and are disqualified.
The court says they are breaking the rules, but should be alloed to take part all the same.
Its a ridiculous judgement- why would any other country have a judicial system that would make a decision like that??!!
Personally tho, if minardi arent doing any harm, if they are prepared to pay their ££ and they arent going to win anything, and the majority of the other teams dont have a problem with minardi, why bother excluding them?
Minnie_the_Minx
07-03-2005, 16:08
Why did the Grand Prix change from September (or October?) to March? Too wet or something?
Wowbagger
07-03-2005, 16:12
Good race, although the quafilying was just that. It'll be interesting to see how the new qualifying system works when it's got constant conditions.
Ich bin ein Mod
07-03-2005, 21:48
Why did the Grand Prix change from September (or October?) to March? Too wet or something?
Are you taling about the fact that the Aussie GP used to be the finale and is now the curtain raiser for the season? Dunno but it's been like that for years now.
Wowbagger
07-03-2005, 22:20
Didn't they change it at the same time they shifted it to Albert Park from Adelaide?
GarfieldLeChat
07-03-2005, 22:21
I dont understand how.
Minardi want to race, minardi are breaking the rules and are disqualified.
The court says they are breaking the rules, but should be alloed to take part all the same.
Its a ridiculous judgement- why would any other country have a judicial system that would make a decision like that??!!
Personally tho, if minardi arent doing any harm, if they are prepared to pay their ££ and they arent going to win anything, and the majority of the other teams dont have a problem with minardi, why bother excluding them?
as i understand it minardi (like ferrari) were given dispensation to race using last years car then they were told they were allowed to race then they were told they were then not then they went to the court...
There's a slight difference - Ferrari are using last year's chassis, but with the 05 engine and aero package. Minardi just wanted to run the 04 car, then amazingly managed to do the work in a night.
I used to like Paul Stoddart but he's becoming a bit of prick....but at least he's standing up to Max and Bernie. No matter what they think, F1 needs more private teams like Minardi and Sauber but eventually they'll be priced out of F1.
beesonthewhatnow
08-03-2005, 14:57
How to make F1 exciting again, by beesonthewhatnow
Scrap the new qualifing system, and bring back the old way where everyone was out on the track at the same time, with unlimited laps.
Scrap fuel stops, but allow tyre changes.
Reduce downforce. A lot.
Bring in a point for fastest lap.
Discuss :)
Okay Bees.
Qualifying: agreed
Fuel: I quite like the tactics involved with this. Keep 1 set of tyre for the race rule.
Downforce: No idea TBH - it doesn't seem to make much difference
Fastest Lap: Nope - a point for Pole is a better reward.
My 2p:
1) Scrap the $48m bond for joining F1.
2) Ban Tilke from designing, or god forbid changing, any more circuits.
3) Spa must always be on the calender!
4) Introduction of customer engines and chassis - Ferrari can carry on if they wish, but a new team should be able to join with a chassis from Dallara or whoever and their pick of engines - Toyota, Ford, Honda, BMW, Renault, Mercedes, plus others ie, Audi/VW. Selling the engines reduces overall cost and encourages them to make engines available (in theory...practice may be different)
5) Linked to #4 - the introduction of an engine championship - splitting constructors between chassis and engines - a la IRL/CART.
A good explanation of the weekends political shenanigans here! (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns14359.html)
beesonthewhatnow
09-03-2005, 10:59
Okay Bees.
Qualifying: agreed
Fuel: I quite like the tactics involved with this. Keep 1 set of tyre for the race rule.
Downforce: No idea TBH - it doesn't seem to make much difference
Fastest Lap: Nope - a point for Pole is a better reward.
But not allowing fuel stops will make for tactics - will drivers go flat out at the start, try and build up a good lead, or will they be more conservative and try to keep some for a flat out finish? Bringing back turbos would amplify this, but I can see form the safety point of view that this is a no no, the engines make stupid amounts of power as it is.
Downforce - cutting it a lot will bring back the days of slipstreaming and the ability to be nice and close in corners. You'd see loads more overtaking into corners that previously would have been impossible.
A point for fastest lap would encourage racing right until the end of the race, no more cruising around holding position for the last 10 laps.
kyser_soze
09-03-2005, 14:31
Well, my nomnation for underdog team of the year has to be RBR...having been tifosi all my life and seen the wanky behaviour of Ferrari fans in Belgium last year, I've decided to pick two teams to support this year - For me it's Renault of the front runners and RBR of the minnows.
red rose
20-03-2005, 16:29
That was an absolutely brilliant race, I hate to say it but not having ferrari tearing off into the distance does make it easier to pay attention to everything else going on on the track.
Driver of the race would have to be either heidfeld who admittedly got a bit lucky or raikkonen who was more than a bit unlucky.
Very satisfying to see everyone sweating and struggling in the heat and then seeing them interview michael at the end to see him looking comfortable and calmly and objectively and cool as a cucmber :cool:
Don't know how much more of james allen's utterly crap commentry I can stand though
I hate James Allen :mad: Brundle is class though.
I'm loving the RBR results - Klien has impressed me a lot, great composure for a young kid. Really can't see how Luizzi will get a drive - maybe whne Sauber kick JV out!
Once again Webber proved he has the pace but absolutely no race craft whatsoever...he shoudl have waited but didn't and went out.
Really can't see how Luizzi will get a drive - maybe whne Sauber kick JV out!
Luizzi would have to be better than Jacques, but I reckon Sauber are lining up Davidson for the rest of this season.....
Once again Webber proved he has the pace but absolutely no race craft whatsoever...he shoudl have waited but didn't and went out.
That's a bit hard doncha think? Fisi wasn't on the clean line, was driving way too fast, had screwed his tyres and had effectively lost the corner to Webber.... who was merely doing what he's paid to do, overtake when he can. I don't think you can blame Webber's racecraft for Fisi trying to copy Ralf Slomaker's similar stupidity ...
Nah Webber's done this before - get's annoyed and then makes a stupid mistake. He was still fuming after Ralf's lunge at the same corner.
If he'd taken his time he could have easily passed Fisi within a few laps, but was obviously feeling the pressure from a charging Heidfeld. The difference with the second accident was that Fisi was ahead into the braking zone (unlike Ralf who came from nowhere) and Webber squeezed him, Fisi locked up on the dirty side of the track. The Renault was going backwards in that race, and Webber clearly had the quicker car
Kimi showed him how it should be done - pressure the guy for a lap, keep your line and wait for the mistake. Webber just isn't used to the big race pressure - he had absolutly no expectations in Jaguar because everyone knew they were shite, but now he has a quick team mate in a car that although not a championship contender, is a potential race winner.
He needs to start proving he's as good as he says he is.
Wowbagger
21-03-2005, 13:19
Wow. There was more actual racing in there than I've seen in any of the past four seasons put together.
He needs to start proving he's as good as he says he is.
You don't like Webber then? ;)
Even though Fisi has just got a wrap across his knuckles from the stewards? I say again, Fisi would have lost the car and been on the beach, if Webber hadn't been there to act as a a doorstop!
Still, I agree that Webbo's probably feeling a bit under pressure from Nick. And TBH, I've always thought Nick was quicker than he's had the chance to show. Untill now that is. :D
I don't have a problem with Webber...but he's hardly set F1 alight. He's very average at the moment. Has huge potentia as h showed at Mercedes and then Minardi but at the moment I see nothign to suggest he could challenge MS, Fisi, Alonso, Kimi or even JPM.
denialworks4me
23-03-2005, 11:20
I think we may be jumping the gun here, ferrari are yet to bring their new car into race and Honda have obvisously brought theirs out to early... Will we see tese two teams claw back mid season, i think so, i hope so in the case of BAR
Can't see BAR doing anything for a good few GPs - the car doesn't handle well and tends to blow up. It's lakcing top speed comapred to Sauber and RBR.
Ferrari's new car will of course be quicker, but I think everyone has been surprisde by MS' lack of pace - even Rubens is outpacing him :eek: I mean, this is the guy everyone said was so good he could win in an aeverage car. Well, now he has one, and fighting down in 7th/8th suggests the car was a big part of the success.
I imagine Bridgestone have been getting a bollocking already, as Michelin seems to have done their homework on the new rules and the Renault's in particualr seem kind on the tyres over a full race distance.
I mean, this is the guy everyone said was so good he could win in an aeverage car. Well, now he has one, and fighting down in 7th/8th suggests the car was a big part of the success.
.... either that, or he's got nothing left to prove by struggling with a dog. If the new Ferrari is competitive, I think we'll see MS going for it again, although I hope that doesn't mean he'll continue to use his Hill/Villeneuve/Heidfeld trick when he's under pressure!
How to make F1 exciting again, by beesonthewhatnow
Scrap the new qualifing system, and bring back the old way where everyone was out on the track at the same time, with unlimited laps.
Scrap fuel stops, but allow tyre changes.
Reduce downforce. A lot.
Bring in a point for fastest lap.
Discuss :)
1. Fuck yes
2. Aka back to the early 90s. Not sure what this would really achieve except slowing down cars on the first half of the race.
3. The manufacturers will revolt as that means losing the rear wing & its associated advertising revenue...
4. A la NASCAR. Again, why?
My rules would be thus; Engine size limit 5 litres, superchargers, turbos & nitrous allowed, no minimum weight, no driver aids, ground effect & active suspension legalised. That would liven things up a bit.
kyser_soze
23-03-2005, 15:27
Good to see my underdog choice of supporting RBR is bearing fruit...
Webber is a tosser who shouldn't be driving for a top flight team. Apols but that's just how I feel.
beesonthewhatnow
23-03-2005, 16:17
1. Fuck yes
2. Aka back to the early 90s. Not sure what this would really achieve except slowing down cars on the first half of the race.
3. The manufacturers will revolt as that means losing the rear wing & its associated advertising revenue...
4. A la NASCAR. Again, why?
My rules would be thus; Engine size limit 5 litres, superchargers, turbos & nitrous allowed, no minimum weight, no driver aids, ground effect & active suspension legalised. That would liven things up a bit.
It'd kill a few drivers as well....
3 - Needn't lose the wing (although it would be smaller), you can lose downforce in other ways
4 - To encourage drivers to keep going for it right to the end, rather than cruising if they have no chance of gaining a place.
denialworks4me
23-03-2005, 16:23
Can't see BAR doing anything for a good few GPs - the car doesn't handle well and tends to blow up. It's lakcing top speed comapred to Sauber and RBR.
Ferrari's new car will of course be quicker, but I think everyone has been surprisde by MS' lack of pace - even Rubens is outpacing him :eek: I mean, this is the guy everyone said was so good he could win in an aeverage car. Well, now he has one, and fighting down in 7th/8th suggests the car was a big part of the success.
I imagine Bridgestone have been getting a bollocking already, as Michelin seems to have done their homework on the new rules and the Renault's in particualr seem kind on the tyres over a full race distance.
Honda have identyfied the engine problem, it was a oil leak which affected both engines, they applied the same 'fix' to both cars hence the fire. They have a fast car this year and aero package, they need to just work on the reliabilty. Im sure they will be mighty pissed seeing toyota take a podium which will push them for better results. I have faith in honda and they are bound to get it right. They have the budget, resources and more importantly the people to find a fix !
It'd kill a few drivers as well....
3 - Needn't lose the wing (although it would be smaller), you can lose downforce in other ways
4 - To encourage drivers to keep going for it right to the end, rather than cruising if they have no chance of gaining a place.
Killing drivers is a good thing, it stops one of 'em for dominating for a decade.
I don't think anyone is going to get a fastest lap at the end of the race with fucked tires and whilst knackered, but it could work.
Ich bin ein Mod
23-03-2005, 17:44
Killing drivers is a good thing, it stops one of 'em for dominating for a decade.
I don't think anyone is going to get a fastest lap at the end of the race with fucked tires and whilst knackered, but it could work.
1. I really hope you're kidding
2. Low fuel load
red rose
23-03-2005, 23:03
although I hope that doesn't mean he'll continue to use his Hill/Villeneuve/Heidfeld trick when he's under pressure!:rolleyes: australia was completely different to hill/villeneuve
Wowbagger
06-04-2005, 11:24
*pokes thread with stick*
kained&able
06-04-2005, 12:04
is montoya out of the next race as well or is he back now????
dave
beesonthewhatnow
06-04-2005, 12:07
So, thoughts on the new Ferrari?
Wasn't quite as good as people expected was it?
No, I think he's back pending a final check. Not really a problem if he isn't after De La Rosa's great drive in Bahrain. Despite Webber's best intentions to cause another accident he showed great skill considering he hasn't driven a competitive race for over 3 years.
I feel a bit sorry for Klien losing out for th next 3 races, but Luizzi on home soil and a track he won at last year is an interesting prospect.
My money would be on MS getting on the podium, unless the F2005 breaks again. I think they made the right move taking it to Bahrain, to get race mielage and it was qucik but frail. The 04 was quick but also bullet-proof.
As Mike Gacoigne said, they assumed they could just change a winning car to the new rules and carry on. That's proven to be their downfall.
Toyota on the other hand :eek: Respect to Trulli for some great drives in qually and the race - kinda shows Falvio the finger :D and shown that Ralf really isn't that good.
red rose
06-04-2005, 12:13
Even when ferrari sort out their reliability problems with the new car the renault will still be better.
Should be interesting to see how it goes over the next few races.
Ferrari to rule them all as the European season gets under way. Hopefully.
And then for the rest of the season.
Anyway, glad to see a thread got made - and isn't too quiet...
Agreed - I expect MS to be on the front row at Imola...Rubens i'm not so sure about, he's not really been on it so far.
I see RBR have got an exemption for Friday's, and Klien will drive the third car. I pleased for him, because it must be weird to drive 3 GP's then do nothing - at least he builds on his experience. On the other hand, RBR knew the rules before the did this stupid driver swap, so must have known it would cause problems.
I can't see how it helps either Luizzi or Klien, or the new team - stability is critical in F1. As much as I admire DC, I can't see RBR keeping him on as a race driver, it seems like Klien and Luizzi will get the race seats. Maybe he'll stay on as a tester?
Schumacher just drove so fast...so so fast...why oh why did qualifying go to fluff...:(
I'm fu**kin furious with ITV and their poxy advert breaks, you sit around for nearly 2 hours to watch the climax of a great race - 3 laps to go and the ads kick in, Magners cider - probably tastes like pish - howard bloody brown and his halifax wares - the stupid gits - cut back to the race 1 lap to go, I just find the whole experience so tedious with ITV now. Please please please BBC get the bloody contract back!
Wowbagger
24-04-2005, 13:48
Killdeathmaim.
I'm fu**kin furious with ITV and their poxy advert breaks, you sit around for nearly 2 hours to watch the climax of a great race - 3 laps to go and the ads kick in, Magners cider - probably tastes like pish - howard bloody brown and his halifax wares - the stupid gits - cut back to the race 1 lap to go, I just find the whole experience so tedious with ITV now. Please please please BBC get the bloody contract back!
Agreed. A case of 'Great Race and Poxy Coverage' Syndrome strikes again.
BBC always did it so much better.
You can tell they fucked up by then showing the last 3 laps in full later on. Bloddy joke that coverage.
Great race though...Alonso proving how classy he is, Kimi showed great pace early on, Trulli shopwing how poor Ralf S is...but Jenson...deary me, such promise and then forgets to overtake a back marker!
red rose
25-04-2005, 09:35
Only managed to see the highlights and man am I pissed off I missed this one.
Coverage wasn't toobad for the highlights (which are on ITV2 tonight if you have cable or sky) nad you get to see the last 7 or so laps in one go.
:cool:
beesonthewhatnow
25-04-2005, 10:17
For me that race just showed how far ahead driving wise MS is. Just think how much he could have won by if qualifying had gone better...
Those 10 or so laps where he was going 2 seconds a lap faster than the others were awesome, and his passing of JB was perfect - pile the pressure on, force a mistake, go though a gap that was barely there :)
There really is no other driver out there thats even close to his talent...
Wowbagger
25-04-2005, 13:26
Didn't actually win though, did he? Nice to know Alonso can cope with his mirrors being full of red.
beesonthewhatnow
25-04-2005, 13:38
Didn't actually win though, did he? Nice to know Alonso can cope with his mirrors being full of red.
5 more laps and MS would have passed him I reckon.
All credit to Alonso though, he got the win which at the end of the day is what matters....
Ferrari are at least kind of back on track. Imola is a very difficult track to overtake on, I doubt MS could have ever overtaken him straight up on the track.
Bridgestone tyres are still pants on a single lap.
Ralf got a penalty of 25 seconds for a dangerous pit stop (released into path of Heidfeld) and so finishes 11th instead of 8th. Heidfeld earns a point.
Button finished the race underweight (when fuel is removed from the car) but was allowed to classify by the stewards. FIA are appealling that one, due to be heard on May 4th.
You can tell they fucked up by then showing the last 3 laps in full later on. Bloddy joke that coverage.
Great race though...Alonso proving how classy he is, Kimi showed great pace early on, Trulli shopwing how poor Ralf S is...but Jenson...deary me, such promise and then forgets to overtake a back marker!
Button did get caught sleeping quite badly really...sadly, not early enough for MS to compound his raw speed advantage.
The McLaren is looking pretty nimble too...I have a feeling in future races, it'll be them and Ferrari duking it out with Renault close behind. BAR and Williams playing catch up...Toyota drifting a bit further back though Trulli will try and put up a fight. Red Bull Racing, for all their early shock, did rubbish. And Liuzzi completely showed up Coulthard and Klien. His fastest lap was about 1.5 seconds faster than old David's. He's definitely a future talent and I can see a big team like Ferrari (as they always were) taking interest in him.
Not quite sure about Sauber, JV managed to amazingly score some solid points - then again, Massa is still driving like a mad man...is collisions with Coulthard (two of them) may have explained why he was slower...
Basically, it's starting to look a bit more like how last season was without the extremes.
I'm very cynical about the whole BAR/Fuel/Imola shenanigans.
Basically I reckon the FIA are trying to pile shit on the manufacturers - in this case Honda, so that they can split the manufacturer teams and bring the teams into the FIA/Ecclestone fold with the new post 2008 concorede agreement.
This story on grandpix.com (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns14734.html) makes interesting reading. Court decision tomorrow.
Any other opinions?
Well, apparently BAR have been using a reserve fuel tank to make sure the car was on the weight limit. That nmeans it's been deisnged into the car, and that is breaking the rules.
If that is the case then they should be thrown out. Blatant cheating (not that it got them anywhere!) will always bee frowned upon. The precedent is when Toyota were found to be using illegal turbos on the Celica WRC car and were thrown out of that year's championship and banned for a further year.
If it's a case of being sneaky with the fuel, then strip them of the Imola result, and fine them. The FIA situation is still finely balanced, but I reckon all the teams will fall into line anyway, so long as the money is right.
So far, you have Ferrari and possbily Red Bull on one side, the rest on the other. More interest is the possible takeover of Sauber by BMW, because that will have a massive impact on Williams and even Button's ideas about joining them. BMW gets an up and coming team with it's own wind tunnel and aero team.
Well, apparently BAR have been using a reserve fuel tank to make sure the car was on the weight limit. That nmeans it's been deisnged into the car, and that is breaking the rules.
Well as I understand it, BAR Honda are not alone in having a reserve tank within the main tank, as Geoff Willis has said, the engine needs 6kgs of fuel to actually run at all. (pressurised fuel system)
Surely the question/s is/are (and it's a finely balanced one) does the 6kgs constitute part of the car's weight, do the regulations specifically mention the use of fuel as ballast or not, and what is the norm when it comes to weighing cars after events... i.e. with or without fuel.
Personally I can't see how BAR Honda or any of the team would take the risk of cheating - (albeit I accept the Toyota WRC precedent.) However I CAN see the FIA with Mosely as Pres, being vindictive.
I fully agree that if any team can be shown to have cheated they should be thrown out of the competition and fined a very large sum of money, but IMO it's the very fact that the FIA is not seen as being impartial that causes doubts about their motives.
Should be an interesting verdict later today.....
Further to the above on the BAR Honda vs. FIA controversy, here is another (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4515785.stm) interesting analysis of the situation from none other than Maurice Hamilton.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4514569.stm
beesonthewhatnow
05-05-2005, 12:44
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4514569.stm
Ouch, that's gonna hurt them, but I guess it could have been a lot worse...
So, they did have an extra tank...I think they've got off very lightly. It's blatant breaking of the rules, designed into the car for a performance advantage. I don't accept the "it's a complex system" argument - yeah, it is, but the other teams don't have a second tank.
I suspect they didn't ban them for the season because they don't want to piss Honda off and need their support for the new concorde agreement and didn't want the grid reduced.
I think BAR could have gone well at Monaco - gutting that they were off the pace running underweight. I suspect the Honda management are less than pleased, and Button is wishing the court had found in his favour a few months ago!
I'm Simes
05-05-2005, 13:00
Shame that Sato and Button couldn't race for drivers points and not claim any for the team rather than complete ban. Suppose they need to make an example of them though.
denialworks4me
05-05-2005, 17:18
interesting to see that BAR are stating they swill still race despite the ban, talk of taking thi to a judge by friday....... good luck to em....it will make for a less interesting race both of of em in fact with out sato and button
Wowbagger
05-05-2005, 17:30
Maybe they could race without the cars? Make 'em run. Literally.
red rose
08-05-2005, 13:24
*wimper*
Wowbagger
08-05-2005, 13:46
Excellent race from Kimi.
Wowbagger
08-05-2005, 23:35
Someone I know just came up with a wonderful idea for what BAR's punishment should have been.
Let them run, but replace all their big sponsor's lettering with "WE ARE A BUNCH OF CHEATS".
Or, a big arrow on the engine cover "sneaky tank used to be here". I saw Martin Brundle's analysis on ITV and his feelign was the tank itself wasn't illegal but leaving fuel in it was. As he said, with something so complex BAR really should have checked with the FIA technical committee to cover their backs.
Still, another very good GP - seems McLaren weren't that light on fuel at Imola judging by Kimi's pace. Shame JPM's fuel was never delivered :D . Another good race for Toyota.
Monaco will be very intersting now - the Renault shoudl be very quick and the McLaren, plus last year's winner in a decent car and MS having to go out 5th in the first qualification.
red rose
09-05-2005, 22:25
I put this on the "draw something interesting" thread in photography/graphics/art but no one there understood it so its going here instead, just a doodle I did based on a conversation with my dad
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/redrose1/f1cartoon.jpg
Wowbagger
09-05-2005, 22:38
Very good!
As I understand it, the issue is not that they had a surge tank, but that it was rather too large to be useful purely as a surge tank.
As I understand it, they didn't cheat at all. They're being made a scapegoat by Mosely for being a big manufacturer that wants transparency and fairness in F1 motorsport.
denialworks4me
10-05-2005, 09:41
As I understand it, they didn't cheat at all. They're being made a scapegoat by Mosely for being a big manufacturer that wants transparency and fairness in F1 motorsport.
WORD - wordie , they are trying to break the manufacturers up, they new about this system that honda had devised at imola , tho no word, as soon as they get a podium its a different story
WORD - wordie , they are trying to break the manufacturers up, they new about this system that honda had devised at imola , tho no word, as soon as they get a podium its a different story
Precisely! Exactly the WORD I was looking for! :D
I reckon Mosely's a creepy, conniving, control freak out to make as much money for himself as possible... (a bit like his father), but then that's just my opinion.
Wowbagger
10-05-2005, 16:18
As I understand it, they didn't cheat at all. They're being made a scapegoat by Mosely for being a big manufacturer that wants transparency and fairness in F1 motorsport.
I'm going on an explanation someone else posted up somewhere else without sourcing it, and am therefore quite prepared for the possibility that he's talking shite: however, assuming it's true, the situation suddenly doesn't look so good for BAR:
Okay now surge tanks are quite legal. What however apparently BAR had that was much different was the fact their tank was three times larger than normal, able to hold 11 litres instead of 4. Now, where as normally a surge tank prevents a misfire due to fuel starvation, it would appear that BAR's is excessive.
How a surge tank works is that a lift pump draws fuel out of the main tank, filling and pressuring the surge tank. The injector pumps draw fuel off the surge tank, with the return lines either going into the surge tank to prevent heated fuel returning to the main tank. The surge tank therefore should always be full for proper operation. With such a large surge tank, BAR's would NOT need to be full all the time and in fact can then be a secondry tank.
Now, BAR's defence was that at no time during the race did the tank go below 8 litres, so they could never have been underweight during the race. Now, this may be true, but the surge tank IS NOT supposed to be a secondary tank and the larger surge tank thence can be additional fuel reserve.
Follw the logic - Surge tanks arent counted in the capacity of the main tank, hence can be counted into the min weight of the car WHEN they are full. Increase the size of the surge tank, the car physically weighs the same, BUT there's more fuel onboard being measured so it's actually materially lighter. Where the FIA is coming from is that the surge tank is too big to be only be useful as a surge tank and that it can also be used as a fuel reserve so that the car can run less fuel in the main tank.
Thence, if the BAR goes the same distance as a Minardi in fuel consuption, say 120 litres for 30 laps, the BAR is always 5 kg's lighter and that's worth about 12 seconds for the race.
So the situation is BAR ran a oversized surge tank, the scrutineers were bombarded with data from BAR at the time of legality checking, which lead to confusion on the facts and BAR being allowed off. The FIA believed BAR's actions were illegal and a deliberate attempt to confuse the scruntineers and the decision was appealed.
I believe after the logic of the FIA is followed through, they have a very valid point and it seems to me BAR were trying to play word games with the rules, with pissed the FIA off.
It is also pointed out BAR last year were caught with movable ballast. Thence, the FIA also believed BAR had a proven history of cheating.
Also, the fact BAR are not appealing is interesting. It probably means they dont have a provable case and once you dig into the facts, then I can see where the FIA is coming from. Something definatly is not right and BAR were looking to try to diddy the system.
I'm going on an explanation someone else posted up somewhere else without sourcing it, and am therefore quite prepared for the possibility that he's talking shite: however, assuming it's true, the situation suddenly doesn't look so good for BAR:
Weeeelllll yeah, I sort of see where you're coming from but... IMO the arguement breaks down due to the following points - albeit I agree that BAR may have been sailing close to the wind. (Like every other team in F1 and Ferrari last year with their FIA legal-illegal-legal barge boards....)
1. Surge tanks are not new and there are no limits on size,
2. If BAR proved that they were not underweight throughout the race and the FIA accepted their data. Where's the problem?
3. Where the FIA is coming from is that the surge tank is too big to be only useful as a surge tank and that it can also be used as a fuel reserve so that the car can run less fuel in the main tank. But the surge tank holds pressurised fuel, within the main tank.... Where the FIA is coming from doesn't make sense! Fuel needed to run the car is fuel needed to run the car. Full stop.
The only time this may be of a possible advantage is in running a lighter car during qualifying, but even then, if the car is weighed at the start, (and it is) and it is weighed at the end, (as it was) and it is proved to have run at the regulation weight throughout the race, (as it was) why were BAR banned for two races and lost their points?
4. Thence, if the BAR goes the same distance as a Minardi in fuel consuption, say 120 litres for 30 laps, the BAR is always 5 kg's lighter and that's worth about 12 seconds for the race. Sorry. I don't see that. If the Minardi is 600kgs and the BAR is 600kgs and they both use the same amount of fuel per lap, then the difference in performance is down to something other than weight... or am I missing something even more blindingly obvious than that!
5. I believe after the logic of the FIA is followed through, they have a very valid point and it seems to me BAR were trying to play word games with the rules, with pissed the FIA off. Excuse me? Where in the rules does it say that a competitor can be banned from the competition, lose points and be forced to forfeit millions of dollars of investment because they are playing word games with the governing body of the sport?
Give me a break here. Shouldn't it be the role of the FIA to prove without a doubt, and also to be seen to be, not only that they are completely and totallly independent, but that all competitors will be treated equally? This they have patently failed to do for more years than I care to remember.... and I remember the Balestre era!
6. It is also pointed out BAR last year were caught with movable ballast. Thence, the FIA also believed BAR had a proven history of cheating. Oh, so they were found guilty of cheating and banned last year as well were they? I seem to have missed that!
Different case and not relevant!
Sorry, but I'll stick to my original opinion. Mosely is a cunt!
Well that's killed this thread then! :D
Wowbagger
11-05-2005, 22:13
Dead as death.
A statement from BAR....
Having investigated the matter fully, including making extensive enquiries of other teams, B•A•R Honda now accept that Formula One cars must always weigh more than 600kg when completely empty of fuel and that this applies even if the car's fuel system is such that some of the fuel in the car is unusable. Before making these enquiries it was the team's honest belief that fuel which could not be used during the race did not have to be removed before the car was weighed.
On this basis B•A•R Honda accept the decision of the FIA Court of Appeal as fair in the circumstances and recognise that the judges in this, as in other cases, are fully independent, being lawyers and professional judges of high standing who give their service on a voluntary basis.
B•A•R Honda want nothing more than to compete with other teams in the Formula One World Championship on an entirely fair and equal basis and look forward to rejoining the competition at the European Grand Prix.
I've marked what I think is the relevant sentence in bold!
Sounds like pressure was brought to bear for this comment to be made at this time.... Question is; who applied the pressure? Bernie E, The FIA in the form of Mosely, the other "breakaway" teams, Honda, British American Tobacco? Curiouser and curiouser.... :D
Good race. Kimi was awesome. Ralf was crap - as usual!
Questions:
1. Now that Nick has had two podiums this season and Webbo has got his first, what are the chances that Frank Williams will let Jenson Button stay where he is at BAR?
2. If BMW give Williams the elbow what are the chances that they pick up a supply of Honda engines?
3. How does the answer to question 2, affect the answer to question one?
I agree that as things stand it would be very tough to replace Nick...as I assume they'd want to keep Webber. However, williams did say they wanted Jenson and if BMW buy Sauber I suspect Nick would go there to replace Jacques "ridiculous move" Villeneuve.
On the Honda point...they have a history but Honda to all intents and purposes owns BAR, so can't see them pulling out of that. If BMW does leave Williams I can't see them continuing as a customer of Sauber!! Ford is one possibility, as is Toyota.
I'm so frustrated by the Bridgestone tyres being... so bad...
The Ferrari is fundamentally still a quick car but it just can't get up the grid to show it. Fastest laps of the race from Michael, then Kimi, Alonso, Fisi and Rubens.
Rubens and Ralf have had a moan at Schumacher being aggressive on the last lap. Ralf has implied Michael could have broken his neck of all things...
The championship is a two-horse race and Michael really doesn't seem in it.
denialworks4me
24-05-2005, 09:58
I'm so frustrated by the Bridgestone tyres being... so bad...
The Ferrari is fundamentally still a quick car but it just can't get up the grid to show it. Fastest laps of the race from Michael, then Kimi, Alonso, Fisi and Rubens.
Rubens and Ralf have had a moan at Schumacher being aggressive on the last lap. Ralf has implied Michael could have broken his neck of all things...
The championship is a two-horse race and Michael really doesn't seem in it.
and good is it to see the red cars up the back for once :)
Ferrari will pull it back, but for now I'd rather have other peiopel near the front - i'm glad things have worked for Nick and Trulli because they're decent drivers who needed a break.
It's not just a bridgestone problem - its clear the aero still isn't working as it did on previous models - Imola needs high speed stability and McLaren and Renault seems to have more than the red cars. Ferrari are probably writing the season off as damaqge limitation whiel working on the new V8...then normal service will be resumed.
But still, even on form MS might have trouble catching Kimi - he's on fire.
Best part of the Monaco GP: Red Bull mechanics helmets :D
Trulli? It didn't work out for him...
Red Bull mechanics helmets were classic... hell stormtroopers, Darth... :eek:
It's quite heavily related to Bridgestone...Imola was where Ferrari were doing the business - and if you look at fastest laptimes - Ferrari are still capable of doing the business. But over a single lap - the Bridgestone tyres are not getting any grip, they cool too easily, heat up again too slowly.
If you look at how other Bridgestone runners (Jordan Minardi) are doing this year compared to last... it's even further behind by margins of seconds further back than they were last year. Some of which is down to the tyres... the new drivers aren't that bad their cars aren't that much fundamentally slower - especially when you think of a track like Monaco where car differences are minimised.
denialworks4me
24-05-2005, 10:45
was it me or did jenson look coked up when in the box calling the race ?? Im looking forward to seeing BAR coming back and taking podiums. Tho id like to see kimi take the title... no chance for my team this year now :rolleyes:
Well done Nick Heidfeld.
Now win the bloody thing! :D
Hmm, Alonso tightens his grip...
Is it just me or are the new tyre regulations causing some fairly dangerous racing conditions? That was my initial feeling about seeing so many cars go flying off... it's not the first time either.
I'm not sure how I feel about the tyre situation being as it is.
Wowbagger
29-05-2005, 16:46
Anyone else think Kimi should have gone in?
...
No, me neither.
Anyone else think Kimi should have gone in?
...
No, me neither.
It made more exciting he stayed out - but then, letting drivers race cars on tyres that are prone to delaminate and all sorts is just getting dangerous.
It made more exciting he stayed out - but then, letting drivers race cars on tyres that are prone to delaminate and all sorts is just getting dangerous.
Woah there! I agree the tyres were in a dangerous condition but it was firstly, the driver's responsibility to look after his tyres given the regulations, and let's be honest Kimi didn't bother looking after his tyres did he?
Second, it was the responsibility of the team to call their driver in if their car was in any way dangerous, which it obviously was given the very scary vibrations Kimi was experiencing caused by his own impatence and/or inattention earleir in the race.
I don't think in this instance you can blame the regulators - and I'd be the first to do that if I thiought it was justified.
If Raikkonen had killed himself in this accident - and a similar failure may have been responsible for the death of Ayrton - would McLaren feel quite so self righteous (sp) about the regulations? I don't think so!
They chose to leave him out there in a dangerous car. My gripe is why didn't the meeting organisers black flag Kimi's McLaren which was in an obviously dangerous condition?
Congrats to Alonso and to Nick for getting the best out of a dull circuit.
Kimi needs to listen a little less to the hype and start concentrating.... both on and off the track!
red rose
30-05-2005, 16:00
To be honest I disagree with you about the regulators not being at fault. Every year they introduce new measures to try to slow the cars down, and I do believe thats all it used to be but every year now there are sillier and sillier rules introduced to try to make things more interesting. I think the new tyre rule is one of these rules, I think making the cars run all weekend on one set of tyres is dangerous and its been introduced to get people watching again.
Honestly everyone's been saying this season how there have been some great races, and there have. But it just seems so forced, and its not nearly as enjoyable as it used to be back in the late nineties when things didn't just happen because rules had been made to make sure things were interesting. Its like its gone from being a really good drama on the BBC to being a soap opera.
To be honest I disagree with you about the regulators not being at fault. Every year they introduce new measures to try to slow the cars down, and I do believe thats all it used to be but every year now there are sillier and sillier rules introduced to try to make things more interesting. I think the new tyre rule is one of these rules, I think making the cars run all weekend on one set of tyres is dangerous and its been introduced to get people watching again.
Honestly everyone's been saying this season how there have been some great races, and there have. But it just seems so forced, and its not nearly as enjoyable as it used to be back in the late nineties when things didn't just happen because rules had been made to make sure things were interesting. Its like its gone from being a really good drama on the BBC to being a soap opera.
I take your point and in truth I feel much as you do. A lot of the spontaneity and sporting challenge seems to have been thrown out with the bath water, but there have always been regulations that the teams have to abide by and although I can see how you might consider the current tyre regulation a mickey-mouse, knee-jerk restriction, it's the same mickey-mouse, knee-jerk restriction for everyone.
The fact remains that if Kimi had looked after his tyres better, he almost certainly would have won the race. McLaren admit they didn't call him in because he would have dropped to third - but they could and maybe should have done. If the tyre regulation is dangerous it's because the teams choose to gamble with it.
I can fault the FIA on the spirit of the regulation but not on the implementation.
With hindsight he shoudl have pitted - get maybe 4 points. But, he's a racer and wanted to win...but realyl shoudl have looked after the tyres better.
And well doen Nick for showing everyone that he's the racer we all knew he was! People questioned whether Webber woudl blow him away, but he's held his own - question is will Williams keep him?
I think it's apparent for quite a while that Nick is pretty good - I just expected Webber to be better. I think Williams will keep both of them at this rate.
Back to tyres, if you're going to force what I feel is a fairly strict and potentially iffy regulation (and we've seen cars running very worn tyres for quite a few races) then there should be some kind of controlled tyre to prevent accidents.
Having two manufacturers in the sport is probably quite money profitable for Bernie - but it's meant speeds have gone up a great deal and imposing a tough regulation on the tyres has meant they are taking more risks to gain performance and it's heading the way of getting safety troubling.
Anyone else think Kimi should have gone in?
...
No, me neither.
he probably should have pitted but hindsight is always 20/20
someone managed to record the conversation between kimi and the maclaren pit wall
> -- All right with car, Kimmi? Roger.
> -- F-fu-f-fu-ck-i-i-in-g-g-- vib-br-rr-at-t-t-t-ion!
> -- Wanna Stop, Kimmi?
> -- Wh-w-wh-h-h-a-t-t-t-t?
> -- Change tire?
> -- T-t-t-t-ti-r-r-r-r-r-ee -- sh-h-h-ho-o-t-t-t!
> -- Tire ok? Radio dooes not sound right. Roger that?
> -- Ye-es! N-o-o! Vi-i-ib-b-brrr....
> -- OK. Alonso closing in! Push, push...
> -- ...vibb-b-bra-at-ion...
> -- You're breaking up, Kimmi. Last lap soon. Push!
> -- ... susp-p-pens.. //BANG!// ..f-fuc.
Anyone been watching/reading Frank Williams and Patrick Head giving BMW a serious handbagging about their inability to perform at F1 levels of professionalism?
Pretty hefty and very unusual! I guess that's the end of that relationship then?
I can only guess that there will be a split at the end of the season and that Williams already have someone lined up to supply them with engines next year.
It does raise a couple of questions though. Dr Mario Tiswas is angling to set up his own BMW F1 team via a purchase of Sauber. If the BMW board don't buy the deal, then Dr Mario has just lost a load of credibility in the pitlane. If they do by Sauber it's gonna take them a few years to perform at Williams level. Pity really, BMW have a good history in F1 and it seems as if this teutonic ego-maniac is about to blow it. Munich needs to get itself sorted out I reckon.
The next question all this raises is what happens to Button next year? Depends on who the motor supplier is I reckon.
Pity we can add a poll retrospectively (or can we?) so that peeps could vote for what they think is the most likely power pack in the back of the Williams cars next year. Logic says Toyota, but my gut says Honda.... where there's Williams history.
What do you lot think?
Yeah - BMW and Williams were going to split. Rumoured ages ago.
The relationship just hasn't worked. BMW started off with the worst engines on the grid. Then the best... and are now just 'in the middle'?
Although Williams is now at the sharp end of the grid... how long will it last?
As it happens, I'm not even sure Williams want Button now. And they may take Honda engines? I doubt Toyota would supply them. I say this just by looking at the way are BAR going this year...
I suspect BMW will supply Sauber next season and buy them out the year after once the new rules have come in - next season will be a total lottery anyway with the V8s.
If thyat does happen I think quick Nick will be off to Sauber to replace JV, with Button and Webber at Williams...which TBH I don't think is a particularly strong line-up. Would Honda supply Williams when it owns BAR too? I'm not sure - there's history for sure, but Williams would want top sepc engines, and woudl Honda want to risk its own team being beaten by a customer?
Well, I can't see who else would do customer engines for Williams... now a new engine manufacturer coming into the mix. Maybe there will be a new one - since this has been 'going on' for a while and Williams must have covered their bases... must have right?
And I think Honda are looking for success - they'd dump BAR for Williams... hence my speculating Honda rather than any other current engine supplier.
True they could...but who woudl buy half of BAR?
I see Trevor Carlin has quit Jordan...not a good sign when someone that respected and knowledgeable walks away. No sign of an engine deal for next season - it's official Jordan are fucked :(
True they could...but who woudl buy half of BAR?
I see Trevor Carlin has quit Jordan...not a good sign when someone that respected and knowledgeable walks away. No sign of an engine deal for next season - it's official Jordan are fucked :(
Jordan have been fucked for ages... they're on the same ropes as Minardi - it was always going to happen what with how F1 has gone in the last 4 years or so ...
(or whenever it was that you saw Jackie Stewart jump ship at exactly the right moment...clever move that)
Who would buy half of BAR - good question... maybe BMW will buy someone else up ;)
I see the rumour on the pitlane is that Rubens might go to BAR if Jense goes elsewhere.... Rubens and Gil de Ferran being good mates...
Comments?
Oh, and I don't reckon Honda will sell their stake in BAR, but there's no reason for them not to suppyl Williams. They want to win. If it's in a Williams so be it. In a BAR than that's OK too!
Quetion is, what's gonna happen to little Nick... surely he won't go to Sauber BMW and sit out the rest of his career waiting for Dr Mario to get his act together??? :eek:
Hope he stays with Williams. Hope Ralf goes to Sauber BMW. Hope Kimi looks after his tyres this weekend!
I can see Rubens leaving... I think Ferrari want to start blooding a successor to Michael.
Fair point about Honda... Nick - who knows - is he on a one year contract?
Jenson has a light car...compared to Sato.
Rubens has no time for some reason...Michael starts from 2nd. The start of something great? Seven wins on the trot would be nice Michael...
Kimi pays another penalty in terms of qualifying by his non-stop last time.
Toyota don't look good.
Renault 3 and 4 look menacing.
Bridgestone tyres actually look reasonable when you consider the usual backmarkers compared to the slower Michellin runners.
Jenson has a light car...compared to Sato.
Rubens has no time for some reason...Michael starts from 2nd. The start of something great? Seven wins on the trot would be nice Michael...
Kimi pays another penalty in terms of qualifying by his non-stop last time.
Toyota don't look good.
Renault 3 and 4 look menacing.
Bridgestone tyres actually look reasonable when you consider the usual backmarkers compared to the slower Michellin runners.
Wow, what a topsy turvey world we live in.....
1. BUTTON BAR 1m15.217s
2. M.SCHUMACHER Ferrari 1m15.475s
3. ALONSO Renault 1m15.376s
4. FISICHELLA Renault 1m15.577s
5. MONTOYA McLaren 1m15.669s
6. SATO BAR 1m15.729s
7. RAIKKONEN McLaren 1m15.923s
8. VILLENEUVE Sauber 1m16.116s
9. TRULLI Toyota 1m16.201s
10. R.SCHUMACHER Toyota 1m16.362s
11. MASSA Sauber 1m16.661s
12. COULTHARD Red Bull 1m16.890s
13. HEIDFELD Williams 1m17.081s
14. WEBBER Williams 1m17.749s
15. ALBERS Minardi 1m18.214s
16. KLIEN Red Bull 1m18.249s
17. KARTHIKEYAN Jordan 1m18.664s
18. MONTEIRO Jordan 1m19.034s
19. FRIESACHER Minardi 1m19.574s
20. BARRICHELLO Ferrari no time
Look where Williams are? Look where Schumi is?Look where Jacques has ended up!
Could be a good race tomorrow! :D
You got Alonso's time wrong for some reason. And Button is not going to last.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see him in fifth by the end of the first lap - or just have to go into the pits. You don't get 5 tenths on your team mate without skimming out fuel. Lots of it.
And the BAR isn't that fundamentally quick...
You got Alonso's time wrong for some reason.
Oh yeah, sorry about that. It was a cut-n-paste from somewhere.... It'll be really interesting to see where Jense and Schumi end up at the end of the race.
Looking forward to the first corner! :eek:
Wowbagger
12-06-2005, 13:24
You took them off the ITV site, didn't you?
You took them off the ITV site, didn't you?
Very probable! :D
red rose
12-06-2005, 17:49
Jesus christ the speed of the Renaults off the grid was spectacular! Its a shame about Fisichella retiring, Im just praying Alonso can stay ahead of Montoya
red rose
12-06-2005, 17:54
Bollocks
Actually, the remarkable lack of speed from Button and Michael was just plain depressing.
And both Renaults are out... Mclaren one-two.
spitfire
12-06-2005, 17:58
Bollocks
Shame about the double retirement. Renault have been good so far.
Anyone for a McLaren 1-2?
I am. :)
Shame about the double retirement. Renault have been good so far.
Anyone for a McLaren 1-2?
I am. :)
Nah, they'll take each other out. Button will lose out to Michael and the day will be good :cool:
Yeah - right :rolleyes:
spitfire
12-06-2005, 18:06
Worryingly possible,
You were right about Button though, perhaps not quite as you expected but he's out. Silly bugger
Worryingly possible,
You were right about Button though, perhaps not quite as you expected but he's out. Silly bugger
it's Button. He's rubbish and overrated massively in the UK!
Stewards - stuff over both of the Mclarens! Please!
spitfire
12-06-2005, 18:11
That was a bit close, stop-go looks likely.
spitfire
12-06-2005, 18:15
Oh For Fucks Sake.
Idiots
That was a bit close, stop-go looks likely.
Montoya - dusted :cool:
Now let's hope Kimi has something tits-up happen to him!
AND RAIN!!!! RAIN!!!! ohhhh YES!
spitfire
12-06-2005, 18:18
and we're on soft tyres as well IIRC....
doh.
red rose
12-06-2005, 18:20
you cant see it, but Im dancing round the room
spitfire
12-06-2005, 18:22
you cant see it, but Im dancing round the room
I bet you are.
I've just poured myself a stiff drink. Schumi's getting a bit quick for my liking.
Nah, needs rain - quite serious rain - for Schumacher to nab him.
red rose
12-06-2005, 18:24
bah he's falling back now, I hve everything crossed for rain
The sky doesn't look too good for rain...
...and the sky seems reasonably bright. If not, getting brighter.
red rose
12-06-2005, 18:25
I know, bloody louise getting my hopes up
spitfire
12-06-2005, 18:26
The gaps staying constant (ish) 2.7 thereabouts, hopefully kimis just keeping him at bay
spitfire
12-06-2005, 18:28
Points for Red Bull. Which is nice.
red rose
12-06-2005, 18:30
Poor Sato, two retirements for one driver in one race is some acheivement.
red rose
12-06-2005, 18:36
Well that was pretty good.
spitfire
12-06-2005, 18:36
Woohoo!
Still been 8 races since Michael has won - longest non-winning streak since...1993 or 4?
And that 'bulldog' ad... so could have been better.
spitfire
12-06-2005, 18:44
What was the bulldog ad, I missed that.
It's good to see the ferrari team getting cut down to size a bit. I'm just hoping McLaren can get some consistency.
Still nice to see Red Bull getting some points as well.
It was an ad full of rugby players.
I still have some loose dream of Ferrari coming back and winning every single race. Then both titles...
Wowbagger
12-06-2005, 20:42
Great race. I'm not sure what more could have happened.
Great race. I'm not sure what more could have happened.
Rain. That's what. Last 12 laps in heavy rain would have minted it as a classic of the decade.
Right so here's a few post race thoughts for you!
Is it me or does Montoya seem to be a bit of a lazy bugger? When he's got his dander up he's right on the pace and ***king fast, but he does seem to lose it when things aren't going his way. Silly, silly mistake missing a red light, and not worth however many millions he's being paid - in fact really dumb driving JP. Get a grip! Please.
Alonso was a silly billy! Fancy his engineers watching him slam into the wall and right after that Ferdi comes on the radio and says, "Er... there's someting wrong wid de car..." What would you think... :eek: Yeah, same as me. "Plonker...."
Jacques seems to have blown it big time. Again! (Where's that big hook they have in theatres when they want someone to get off? Still the money must be good eh, Jacques?)
Jense didn't react very well to Schumi pressure did he? Not very premier league driving there Jense IMO.
Pity Nick lost his motor when he was in points collecting position. Still, I bet Patrick Head smiled when the BMW motor spewed it's innards all over the track... As did I! Stick that in your lederhosen Dr Mario..... and go and buy Sauber if you think you're big enough!
What else?
Rubens made a great statement for any team looking for a really experienced driver next year. From the pit lane up to third spot on the podium. Respect and a BAR contract for you my boy! Or double your money at Red Bull!
Massa did well. I've never really rated him but he held off Webber quite easily didn't he. Speaking of which, Mark, what were you doing outbraking yourself into that hairpin. Just so amateurish it was real Brand Hatch Formiula Ford stuff.
Come on Mark, either do the business or fuck off back to Oz. There's plenty of good guys waiting for your seat!
Next week Idianapolis, and I'd bet Kimi will rule again. That McLaren looks like the machine to have! Sorry the B, but I don't think we'll see Schumacher anywhere near a win this season. Michael that is. The racing driver Schumacer.
The taxi driver Schumacher was only obvious because of his anonimity throughout the entire race! In fact, if the whole GP in Montreal was replayed and all the footage of Ralf was cut from the video, would anyone have noticed? And how much is he being paid?
Please fuck off Ralf and allow a racing driver to have your Toyota seat....
Montoya messed up bad. If he had paid attention - joined up at the back he'd of dropped to 6th though. Maybe 5th.
Alonso - racing incidents do happen. It's the sort of thing that non-great drivers do. Alonso - he's good but not quite the stuff of 'legend' yet.
JV - what happened to him? I thought he got involved in some minor accident at the beginning and had to have a nose change. Again, hardly his fault.
Button - always known he was crap.
Webber - he is good. Nick is too.
Michael will win a race this season - he's just bound to. Law of averages. His record is 1 in 3. Which hasn't been close to done this season - but he always gets one somewhere.
Will Kimi do it again? Not too sure... I think if Schumacher had a decent start (ie. wasn't going to get stuffed by the way Button did the most slow crawling parade lap ever - which didn't help him either!) you'd of seen Michael keep it up with the best of them. Can't rule him out anyway...ever.
Montoya messed up bad. If he had paid attention - joined up at the back he'd of dropped to 6th though. Maybe 5th.
So! He was in one of the best cars. He should have chilled and used the mechanical advantage he had. Instead he blew it!
Alonso - racing incidents do happen. It's the sort of thing that non-great drivers do. Alonso - he's good but not quite the stuff of 'legend' yet.
I agree, but he's going for the championship and it's too early for nerves. Maybe he won't ever make the hall of fame.... if he keeps making mistakes like that!
JV - what happened to him? I thought he got involved in some minor accident at the beginning and had to have a nose change. Again, hardly his fault.
Excuse me? Driving into the back of the car in front of you is not the way to win a motor race - and he's old enough and ugly enough to know that. Massa, (Jacques teammate lest we forget) hasn't won a World Championship and he came in 4th!
Button - always known he was crap.
So where will he end up next year if you're right? And why do Honda rate him so highly?
Webber - he is good. Nick is too.
Nick yes. Webber? The jury's still out and it's taking longer than it should....
Michael will win a race this season - he's just bound to. Law of averages. His record is 1 in 3. Which hasn't been close to done this season - but he always gets one somewhere.
No chance! But I could be wrong. Kimi and McLaren are too good this year I reckon. And about time too!
Will Kimi do it again? Not too sure... I think if Schumacher had a decent start (ie. wasn't going to get stuffed by the way Button did the most slow crawling parade lap ever - which didn't help him either!) you'd of seen Michael keep it up with the best of them. Can't rule him out anyway...ever.
Schumi can't complain about the parade lap... he just got caught behind Jense at the start and had to back off and was chopped by Montoya at the second turn and had to back off again... Shit happens, but he's the man isn't he? Just lacking in the equipment department at the moment! (Especially tyres!)
But boy, those Renaults were quick off the line! The 4th car on the grid overtook the pole car before the first turn??? :eek: :eek: Give BMW some of that medicine! Please!
It's that Mclaren 'racing instinct' - don't stop just because you shou;d or a light says so - race! ;)
Alonso has the title 'to lose'. He has one hand on it. It's never too early for nerves when you're leading a GP!
I'm confused by Honda rating him highly. Maybe because they only have Sato to compare him against... Davidson was certainly up to speed with Button - if not faster - on Friday sessions in the past.
Last year, Michael and Ferrari were stunning. Utterly stunning. Same in 2002. But other people do win a race. Mclaren with Prost and Senna in 87 would be another example - that was the most dominant season in F1 ever. They didn't win the last race because they took each other out if I recall correctly!
And Schumacher can feel hard done by on the parade lap. It was very slow - just watching it, you felt it go slowly. Hurt his start a great deal.
Renault off the start - more a function of how slow Button and Schumacher were than anything else. An illusion of speed if you will.
And I apologise for being too lazy to a series of constructed quotes.
And I apologise for being too lazy to a series of constructed quotes.
No worries.... it's good to have someone to talk to about F1 even though I'm not a big Ferrari and/or Schumacher fan - albeit I do acknowledge their engineering and driving prowess! :D
My "fear" for Indy is the engines. Montreal followed by the Speedway?
Some are not going to last...
Great GP...some very silly mistakes by drivers, particulalry Alonso and Button. JPM's is slightly more forgiveable but was a combination of driver error and poor team communication.
TBH the biggest things was Trulli's luck escape...if that happened anywhere other that that section he'd had been fucked. Unlucky as well, because the Toyota had okay race pace.
I suspect MS will win about 2-3 GPs this season.
I'm surprised no-one else has actually posted a comment on this today.
The FIA have released some interesting proposals for the way forward for F1 in their view.
Grand Prix .com (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns15043.html)
and a more detailed and considered view HERE! (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns15044.html)
It would be interesting to hear other views on what the FIA have to say.
And before you start, here's my take.
I reckon they have a good point about the problem of manufacturers in F1.
The problem I see is that the FIA, and more specifically, Max Mosely, have allowed themselves to be seen to be in bed with Ferrari, and that's not a good starting position if what you want to do is generate impatiality.
This, at last seems to be sense, spoken from the position of a "governing" body with the benefit of the "sport" at heart. And about time too,.
So if anything I have to say has any influence on you Max, if you keep the sentiments of what you've released to the media, to heart, you have my full support.... and yes I di participate in your recent survey! And I say that as a fan of Formula One who watched Niki Lauda strongarm a Ferrari around Brands Hatch way before most Formula One fans were born!
Lets see Formula One racing returned to the days when it was a sport and not a marketing exercise! The manufacturers have a place in the sport, but are not more important than the sport itself! If they can't stand the heat, and there's evidence to suggest that some can't, get out of the kitchen and leave it to the sportsmen....
Now it's your turn. Please don't let the sport down! And although I never imagined I would ever say it, thank you Max!
Wowbagger
16-06-2005, 20:48
I like it a lot. Hopefully, it's going to turn out as more than just so many words.
I see Ralf Slowmaker is sitting out the USA GP again.... whilst I sympathise with him for the accident, I don't think he'll be missed in the race. Do you?
In fact it'll be intereting to see how Zonta does against Trulli....
Well, I strongly support the race tomorrow being just six cars...
Well, I strongly support the race tomorrow being just six cars...
Actually so do I.... but it won't happen!
jacobs steel
19-06-2005, 18:04
Actually so do I.... but it won't happen!
:eek: :eek:
travellerlife
19-06-2005, 18:06
It happened. what a farce.
spitfire
19-06-2005, 18:09
FFS
Complete fuckwittery. :mad:
red rose
19-06-2005, 18:16
Completely mental
What a farce this is. Michelin will no doubt be getting their contract terminated soon. It's a shame as it's been quite a good season so far. :(
red rose
19-06-2005, 18:21
I doubt michelin's contract will be terminated. This one mistake, although providing a completely insane result isn't enough to warrant them being hounded out of formula one. They're still generally a much better tyre than the bridgestone.
They had no way of knowing this would happen to their tyres here and the fact that there are only six cars out there is as much the fault of the FIA refusing to compromise and it is michelin.
travellerlife
19-06-2005, 18:21
The season has been pretty good so far, at least it has not been predictable. Too many ego`s not enough common sense. it is a problem with heat build up on the outer edge of the tyres due to the banked track, fair enough Michelin messed up, but why they could not come to a solution to allow the cars to race. If I had paid to see the race i would be pretty peeved off.
spitfire
19-06-2005, 18:21
I wonder how much of a big deal it is for the Michelin teams to switch tyres to Bridgestone on a permanent basis, how much hassle would it be?
Does anyone know what the tech issues are?
red rose
19-06-2005, 18:26
No idea what the technical issues are, but like I said I think its very unlikely that will happen anyway.
Most of the teams seem to be backing Michelin and not the FIA
Dead Cat Bounce
19-06-2005, 18:32
After many years of supporting F1 , it's good night from this unhappy punter.
Here's hoping Justin Wilson converts his first pole position in the Cart series.
I doubt michelin's contract will be terminated. This one mistake, although providing a completely insane result isn't enough to warrant them being hounded out of formula one. They're still generally a much better tyre than the bridgestone.
They had no way of knowing this would happen to their tyres here and the fact that there are only six cars out there is as much the fault of the FIA refusing to compromise and it is michelin.
I was being a bit hysterical when I used the word 'terminated'. However, I do think that Michelin can as good as say goodbye to any further involvement in F1. The new rules that have been proposed for 2008 (someone posted a link in a previous post) suggest that the FIA etc are wanting to move back to a single tyre manufacurer.
Add this to Bernie Ecclestone's comment to Martin Brundle on the grid and I imagine that there will be some worried peeps at Michelin.
Buddy Bradley
19-06-2005, 18:41
I wonder how much of a big deal it is for the Michelin teams to switch tyres to Bridgestone on a permanent basis, how much hassle would it be?
Does anyone know what the tech issues are?
A shedload of testing, I would think - they would have so much data on their cars' performances on Michelin tyres, they would have to go right back to square one if they switched to Bridgestones.
I don't think it's an option really - there are no other tyre manufacturers in the game (Pirelli is the only one that comes to mind, but presumably they don't make a competitive F1 tyre?), so Michelin will not be bowing out of F1 anytime soon.
This race is a pile of shite, though. :( You can't blame the fans for throwing stuff on the track - some of them have come from other countries, they've probably paid close to a grand to attend the event.
red rose
19-06-2005, 18:46
I was being a bit hysterical when I used the word 'terminated'. However, I do think that Michelin can as good as say goodbye to any further involvement in F1. The new rules that have been proposed for 2008 (someone posted a link in a previous post) suggest that the FIA etc are wanting to move back to a single tyre manufacurer.
Add this to Bernie Ecclestone's comment to Martin Brundle on the grid and I imagine that there will be some worried peeps at Michelin.Even if they are moving towards a single maunfacturer I very much doubt this will sway things sufficiently in bridgestone's favour. Its clear this season they are the inferior tyre, its quite likely that the only reason they havent had the exact same problem here as michelin is because bridgestone race in the indy500 and so had some data on the wear the new surface creates on their tyres and so had some forewarning.
Its very obvious ferrari have suffered because of their tyre manufacturer this season and the only other teams on the bridgestone are consistently last. There's no way this on its own will be enough to cause michelin to leave formula one.
And there is no excuse for throwing stuff onto the track, its not the fault of the drivers who are racing and throwing stuff on to the track is very dangerous and an extremely stupid and shitty thing to do, no different than throwing stuff at football players.
i_hate_beckham
19-06-2005, 18:52
I'm loving it that Minardi are picking up excellent points. :cool: :cool:
i_hate_beckham
19-06-2005, 18:55
And there is no excuse for throwing stuff onto the track, its not the fault of the drivers who are racing and throwing stuff on to the track is very dangerous and an extremely stupid and shitty thing to do, no different than throwing stuff at football players.
But this is America land of throwing things on to sporting fields, tracks, pitches and rings when not happy. Its practically a part of their culture.
Its very obvious ferrari have suffered because of their tyre manufacturer this season and the only other teams on the bridgestone are consistently last. There's no way this on its own will be enough to cause michelin to leave formula one.
I disagree with this but it's not really all that important as we'll find out soon enough when and if they revert to a single tyre manufacturer - something to keep an eye out for I guess.
It is good to see the Minardis scoring points though, I've always had a soft spot for them :)
Well stone the crows. I never thought they'd be so stupid as to go this far. What arrogance! :(
i_hate_beckham
19-06-2005, 21:44
It will have killed the sport in the USA now.
leftistangel
19-06-2005, 22:03
But this is America land of throwing things on to sporting fields, tracks, pitches and rings when not happy. Its practically a part of their culture.
Same thing would have happened here regarding the plastic bottles. I thought they were remarkably restrained by U.S standards considering most of them had shed hundred of hard-earned dollars and travelled many miles to watch that.
Ich bin ein Mod
19-06-2005, 22:04
Yep, there go a few years of carefully building it back up
spitfire
19-06-2005, 22:26
Same thing would have happened here regarding the plastic bottles. I thought they were remarkably restrained by U.S standards considering most of them had shed hundred of hard-earned dollars and travelled many miles to watch that.
I agree, I think they must have just been dumbfounded at the idiocy and incompetence. I thought they were going to kick off at one point but the moment must have passed. Oh yeah, and their coppers have guns.
leftistangel
20-06-2005, 00:52
Actually I'm even more glad this was a total disaster after Bernie Ecclestone's sexist comments (http://msn.foxsports.com/motor/story/3701634) on women race drivers before the 'race'. And boy, could F1 do with someone like Danica Patrick.
I'm so glad ITV have Martin Brundle - the only man who seemed to make sense. And Coulthard too....ridiculous situation.
Michelin are likely to get the book thrown at them, but it's the teams who've suffered. There was a safety issue, which was so serious, Michelin said they could guarantee the tyres would last.
The FIA did nothing, when it coudl have helped out. Ferrari blocked the chicane idea. Nobody came out of this looking good.
denialworks4me
20-06-2005, 08:27
Actually I'm even more glad this was a total disaster after Bernie Ecclestone's sexist comments (http://msn.foxsports.com/motor/story/3701634) on women race drivers before the 'race'. And boy, could F1 do with someone like Danica Patrick.
The mans a fucken pig, he has one goal in mind, building his fortune at the expense of the sport. A sad day for the spectators, just shows how close the FIA and ferrari are, and how un sporting they are :mad:
Even though the whole thing was a farce - the race seemed to pass by quite quickly! I really enjoyed hearing the Ferrari pit radio for the first time - especially the comments about how well their tyres were holding up!
Can I just say... on Ferrari blocking track alterations - why should Ferrari have to have a comprimised tyre to suit the other runners? Bridgestone made them a tyre that suited the track conditions and so comprimised on performance.
If you're going to throw something new into the track - as I said elsewhere - Bridgestone runners should get to remake the compound of tyre and test it to find out which one they want. I doubt the FIA would have taken it either - they were not going to look 'weak' to the demands of a tyre maker who make a stupid mistake. And it was stupid - they would have had PILES of data on which to develop the compound and construction.
Bridgestone/Michellin - Michellin has been the top tyre this year for performance - it's quite easily judged by how the Minardis and Jordans are doing in relation to the other back of the gridders.
Will Michellin be out of the sport? Unlikely - they want to be in and they'll pay for it. Bridgestone have said they have no interest in doing the control tyre because they see F1 spending as being related to research and development in tyre technology. Michellin - I think - are the same.
Maybe Goodyear will come back...
The mans a fucken pig, he has one goal in mind, building his fortune at the expense of the sport.
He was being incredibly insensitive - but F1 isn't some kind of light hearted physical experience. Women can do it for sure - they've had tests in modern F1 cars... but it's a demanding physical experience around many of the tracks.
F1 drivers are extremely physically fit - Michael Schumacher being a very good example of that. Equally, even Coulthard or Webber.
A sad day for the spectators, just shows how close the FIA and ferrari are, and how un sporting they are :mad:
Knows nothing :p
Ferrari are well within their right to do as they did - because the Concorde agreement that all teams signed up to made it very clear that all team principles must agree to such an action.
In the past, ferrari have opted to do things that didn't 'make sense' from the competitive point of view like letting cars race when they didn't make (in the past) the 107% requirement and so forth...
Same thing would have happened here regarding the plastic bottles. I thought they were remarkably restrained by U.S standards considering most of them had shed hundred of hard-earned dollars and travelled many miles to watch that.
Actually, I doubt it... on most tracks they keep spectators quite far away from the track apart from a few places for safety.
And endangering the lives of people is a stupid stupid thing to do.
Michelin are likely to get the book thrown at them
Has action been started against them? :confused:
The other alternatives - changing tyres and being penalised, or worse, driving slowly were stupid suggestions, but typical of the FIA. Best thing would have been to let them ship over new tyres and run the race but the FIA is so picky over its interpretation of its rules that no one is clear what the alternative would be.
The FIA as just as guilty as Michelin over this and prove they have no idea have to run a spectator sport.
Bridgestone have more data because they run on Ovals every year, including the Indy. They re-surfaced it from last year, so Michelin had no data whatsoever on the surface. They made the wrong choice and should be penalised but it's the FIAs stupid tyre rules that made this situation under the banner of "reducing performance".
They could have kept tyres ae they were and introduced standard components as they now want to in 2008...but I seem to remember a certain red team blocked every idea on that front.
Stupid idea to have F1 on a part Oval anyway...there's so many amazing tracks in the US - Elkhart Lake, Laguna Seca, Road America....why not use one of them? Bring back the Mexican GP if they want something close to the US!
The other alternatives - changing tyres and being penalised, or worse, driving slowly were stupid suggestions, but typical of the FIA. Best thing would have been to let them ship over new tyres and run the race but the FIA is so picky over its interpretation of its rules that no one is clear what the alternative would be.
The FIA as just as guilty as Michelin over this and prove they have no idea have to run a spectator sport.
Bridgestone have more data because they run on Ovals every year, including the Indy. They re-surfaced it from last year, so Michelin had no data whatsoever on the surface. They made the wrong choice and should be penalised but it's the FIAs stupid tyre rules that made this situation under the banner of "reducing performance".
They could have kept tyres ae they were and introduced standard components as they now want to in 2008...but I seem to remember a certain red team blocked every idea on that front.
Stupid idea to have F1 on a part Oval anyway...there's so many amazing tracks in the US - Elkhart Lake, Laguna Seca, Road America....why not use one of them? Bring back the Mexican GP if they want something close to the US!
The Indianapolis Motor Speedway is like Wimbledon to American sports fans. If Americans know anything other than NASCAR its this track.
It was probably the only chance for F1 to catch on in the states. And they blew it completely on Sunday, which I find very sad. The only way to save it now would be to offer tickets back at full refund or let ticket holders exchange their tickets for freebies in 2006. Fat chance of that.
Those tracks you mentioned are great, but none of them could afford Bernie's $15 million fee for straging an event. Only Indianapolis could pull it off.
And F1 threw it all away
Wowbagger
21-06-2005, 02:17
It was probably the only chance for F1 to catch on in the states. And they blew it completely on Sunday, which I find very sad. The only way to save it now would be to offer tickets back at full refund or let ticket holders exchange their tickets for freebies in 2006. Fat chance of that.
I'd find it a lot more likely had ChampCars not beaten them to it: all tickets for the US Grand Prix will also be valid for the 'Grand Prix of Cleveland' next Sunday.
i_hate_beckham
21-06-2005, 02:57
The Indianapolis Motor Speedway is like Wimbledon to American sports fans.
It redundant and forgotten for 50 weeks of the year except for two weeks in summer when 1000's of men tune in to watch young ladies in short skirts grunting?
Some interesting points that came up during interviews:
On the chicane - some drivers reckon they would have had problems even with the chicane.
All drivers could have gone through the pits every lap to avoid turn 13 and avoid the situation of needing to pit for tyres every 10 laps (also an alternative).
News:
The FIA is thinking of doing a one tyre supplier only situation in 2008 to drop speeds. If Michelin wanted it - they don't look too likely to get it.
The Guardian says Michelin may be forced to withdraw having been told not to sacrifice safety for performance after Kim's failure two weeks ago.
MS claims he could smell the volume of beer on the track that was being thrown. Pretty bold claim.
Rubens drove onto the grass after the second stop saying he was trying to hold a lead he realised he couldn't hold onto.
True, but the fact none of these were accepted by the FIA shows how poor the governing body is. Jackie Stewart on the news last night was absolutely right, it's become a game of politics in which the sport has become secondary.
Moseley has to go, Bernie can fuck off to Monaco, and get some people in charge, like Stewart who can get the sport sorted out.TBH, as much as I love F1, I can't help but think some of the manufacturers starting their own series might not be such a bad thing.
Paul Stoddart admitted he didn't want to run but was forced to because Jordan went back on their promise to withdraw. It's an absolute shambles. I don't blame Ferrari completely, but their stance of "we'll do what we want" is utlimately damaging...and if they don't like the rule chnages they can go back to sportscars and use the technology in ALMS for their roadcars.
As for Indianapolis, it is very high profile, but the Detroit GP attracted plenty of crowds back in the 80s. The contract is up after next year, so it'll be interesting to see if they bother.
Frank Williams has laid the blame on Mosley/FIA and said Ferrari should take no blame!
They were totally innocent in this affair entirely," he told Reuters. "They had no reason not to race."
Absolutely...Ferrari had little to do with the FIA's inaction on the matter. But, other reports suggest they vetoed the plans to be put forward to the FIA!
I imagine Honda, Toyota, BMW and Merc are less than pleased with the publicity in the US, which is theri biggest market...therothers might tow the FIA line but those 4 seem likely to demand major changes beyond the 2008 proposals.
As far as I can tell there's tow distinct camps:
Ferrari and Red Bull (Ferrari have already signed a new agreement and RBR will do whatever Ferrari say or face having no engines).
BMW (Sauber), Williams, McLaren Mercedes, BAR Honda, Toyota, Renault and Minardi.
Dunno about Jordan...but that's 2 major teams, one owned by a drinks company and another by a low-volume car producer who's parent company is in dire financial trouble against 5 huge manufacturers/engine suppliers and an established F1 team.
Eventually the larger group will sway opinion, because otherwsie they'll walk away with all their know how and technology and start up their own series.
Christ, even Nigel Mansell is talkign sense now :eek:
"You cannot blame Michelin. I thought it was very brave of them to declare their concern over the integrity of their product and advise the teams.
"You cannot really blame the teams, who had to react to the advice they were given and not risk the safety of their drivers. I had some spectacular tyre failures during my career.
"One robbed me of a world title and yet I did not criticise the Goodyear company who supplied us in those days.
"You cannot disregard warnings about tyres. When the safety of drivers and, possibly, supporters comes into question, you don't mess about.
"You do whatever is necessary in order to race. A compromise had to be found."
I'd find it a lot more likely had ChampCars not beaten them to it: all tickets for the US Grand Prix will also be valid for the 'Grand Prix of Cleveland' next Sunday.
Champ Cars is done. No sponsors, paid drivers and F1 rejects. Most of the cars are field fillers paid for by the three men who are propping up the league and losing money by the day.
The sponsors and good drivers like Kanaan, Hornish, Wheldon, Castroneves and Franchitti are in the Indy Racing League.
It redundant and forgotten for 50 weeks of the year except for two weeks in summer when 1000's of men tune in to watch young ladies in short skirts grunting?
Two weeks out of the year? Kinda like Wimbledon....
Its a great facility. Biggest permanent seating structure in the world. The 500 is great, in my opinion of course.
I will keep a look out for those grunting women next year at the track ;)
Not very surprising news that BMW is supplying Sauber from next season onwards and will be to all intents and pruposes BMW's team from 2007.
Still, 2 very competitive seats will be up for grabs...I suspect JV will be let go, and they'll find someone to replace Massa - one of either Heidfeld, Luizzi or Klien.
I'd say it would be Heidfeld and Massa at Sauber, sorry, BMW next year. I never used to rate him but Massa's grown-up a lot this last year or two. He's just learnt how to stay out of trouble and has put in some sterling performances.
Agreed, he and Klien have impressed me with their tempraments after gaining reputations for throwing it off the road.
Wonder if Ralf will try and get a drive there after being shown up all season by Trulli :D :D
F1 wants Michelin to now compensate the fans. Max Mosely really went after them.
What about this from Mosley:
“Why should the Bridgestone teams suddenly find they had gone all the way to America to run in a non-Championship race,” Mosley added. “It would be like saying there could be no medals in the Olympic rowing because some countries had brought the wrong boats.”
Ouch!
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050622/SPORTS01/50622008
Ich bin ein Mod
25-06-2005, 16:03
For once, some sense from Mosley.
Michelin steps up to the plate and offers a full refund to ticket holders. Nice move on their part.
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050628/SPORTS01/50628009
Agreed...today's the hearing - Michelin have already complained, and rightly so, IMO about Moseley sending faxes to the media slating Michelin, when he wasn't even at the event or privy to any of the team's conversations with the race director!
So...in all probably a hefty fine for Michelin - I can't see how the FIA can possibly ban or fine the teams, but you never know.
Agreed...today's the hearing - Michelin have already complained, and rightly so, IMO about Moseley sending faxes to the media slating Michelin, when he wasn't even at the event or privy to any of the team's conversations with the race director!
So...in all probably a hefty fine for Michelin - I can't see how the FIA can possibly ban or fine the teams, but you never know.
I think we'll see some 'suspended sentences'. FIA aren't usually 'weak' and like to be a strong and brutal regulator. The teams may still get a bit of 'bringing the sport into disrepute'.
Be interesting to hear the results later...
Well that was worth the wait...looks liek we'll have to wait until September! I still don't see how it's the team's fault - they don't supply the tyres, Michelin does.
All this talk of "hard line" seems like smoke and mirrors - the FIA knows the future of F1 is in the balance - Sauber won't exist by the time the concorde agreement is up, so BMW has gained more power. Some teams don't want to use Bridgestone, so it has to be careful with Michelin.
I'm sure Mad Max wanted to dock points, but he just knew if that happened it would have spelt the end of F1 as we know it...although at the moment that might not be such a bad thing.
September it is. All seven involved teams found guilty of two charges. I think they'll be alright really - just some big fines (but on top of costs already associated with the action - that could get quite high).
The FIA is still pushing ahead with a control tyre for 2008... and I have a funny feeling Michelin won't be getting the deal... so some teams will be stuck on non-Michelin tyres.
Only six teams are appealing the two guilty verdicts. Not sure which one isn't.
Meanwhile, Audi might well be doing the engines for Williams next year as BMW are going to bugger off. Can be quite sure that Williams will be rubbish for the rest of the season as they and BMW try and hide all sorts from each other over new advancements.
Red Bull aren't for the moment...said they'd "wait and see" before making a decision...or whatever Ferrari tell them more likely.
Audi...that would be interesting - they've been so succesful in sports cars that F1 does seem a logical step. I'm guessing they're interested because it's moving to V8 engine next season. Also increases the chances of Quick Nick staying put :)
Also rumours that Williams will sign the new concorde agreement and might move to Bridgestone! I think if that's he case I think next season will be a bit of a "learning curve". But isAudi did come on board I reckon they'd be up near the front pretty soon.
If Williams move to Bridgestone - that would be interesting. Lately Bridgestone have been THE Ferrari tyre supplier... pretty much making tyres built for their car.
Williams with Audi engines and Bridgestone tyres? That would be interesting....
I can't see them getting into bed with Ferrari, Bernie and Max somehow though. But then, I didn't think they'd pull into the pits at Indianapolis! :eek:
The title race: now unofficially over.
Yep...Alonso is just looking too good and McLaren need Kimi to win nearly every race, with JPM taking second in most of them. Possible given McLaren's speed, but highly unlikely.
Still, I think the remaining few GPs will be pretty exciting - I had tipped MS to win another, but i'm not too sure now. Will Honda give JB the horses to win at Suzuka, or will Toyota pump up Jarno's engine for home glory?
Still Hungary next - not sure i'll bother watching that one!!
Well... Hungary hasn't been known for it's thrilling races... unless it's been pelting it down with rain maybe...
The McLarens are spanking the Renaults (and everyone) for speed. They're just very unreliable... unlike (Alonso's rather than Fisi's) Renault.
Yeah but Hungary is a Renault circuit if ever there was one - it'll be between Alonsom, Kimi and JPM, with Fisi trailing behind, Button near him and MS struggling into the top 6.
Ich bin ein Mod
27-07-2005, 12:06
Well... Hungary hasn't been known for it's thrilling races... unless it's been pelting it down with rain maybe...
The McLarens are spanking the Renaults (and everyone) for speed. They're just very unreliable... unlike (Alonso's rather than Fisi's) Renault.
When was the last time it rained for the Hungary GP just out of interest? Off the top of my head I can't remember a wet Hungary
(awaits being told it pelted down last year or something)
It must have been a while because I can't remembeer either - it rained a lot during Friday sessions last year but cleared up by qualification.
Seems like it will be the same this year:
Friday
A lot of cloud around today. There will be some periods of sunshine, but this is likely to spark off a good number of showers across the area. These could turn out to be rather heavy, possibly thundery in the afternoon. Light to moderate breezes. It will feel hot and sticky, with top temperatures of 30C / 88F. Fifty per cent risk of precipitation.
Saturday
A better day on the cards, with some good periods of sunshine during the morning. Patchy convective cloud building late morning, and into the afternoon.There is just a small risk this could build enough to produce a well-scattered rain shower, but the risk is very low. It will feel much cooler compared to Friday, as we see a north-westerly air flow set in across the area and it will be much windier too. Top temperatures restricted to 25C / 77F. Twenty per cent risk of precipitation.
Sunday
Perhaps the best day of the whole weekend as high pressure settles in across the country. A lot of dry, calm and bright conditions lasting for much of the day. Good spells of sunshine, intermixed with variable amounts of convective cloud in the afternoon. Very light breezes resulting in slightly warmer temperatures at 27C / 79F. Zero per cent risk of precipitation.
So that's Ferrari buggered then...
Seems Jenson has had a chnage of heart and realised that a Honda-backed team is a better bet than a team with no engine! Frank still thinks he's got a valid contract (ie the 75% clause)...looks like it'll be heading to the contract board again :rolleyes:
I hope JB has fired his adviser because he's not looking good with this fiasco. And if Heidfeld does go to BMW, Williams will need to fill a seat - maybe they'll give Nick Rosberg a break, or even Davidson.
Yeah but Hungary is a Renault circuit if ever there was one - it'll be between Alonsom, Kimi and JPM, with Fisi trailing behind, Button near him and MS struggling into the top 6.
Ha! :p
(that may change tomorrow though)
Dead Cat Bounce
30-07-2005, 20:55
Montoya vs Schumacher into the first corner will be fun , the Ferrari is going to be quick due to the light fuel load but Montoya won't give an inch.
Something tells me there will be tears come 13:00 tomorrow.
My money is on JPM to come out of it and win the race. :)
Fuel will play a part - but it's all about the tyres. Renault are on the hard Michelin's Toyota, McLaren and the rest on soft. 3 stopping work for MS before but I don't think the car will look after its tyres sufficiently if he pushes that hard again.
I expect JPM to win with Michael finishing third or fourth so long as there isn't a repeat of last weekend's problems. The first corner should be interesting- Kimi, Alonso and Button will all be desperate to get past Trulli. Renault could be in trouble come the last 5 laps, just like Monaco.
Dead Cat Bounce
30-07-2005, 21:26
Tyres will play a part but I just can't see how Bridgestone / Ferrari have made this leap from also rans to pole postion material without having an empty fuel tank on Saturday.
MS will run away for the first ten laps but after that it'll be game over.
Actually, Bridgestone might have the tyre to do the job. Last year they had a scorching race because Bridgestone had some fantastic compound that slaughtered everyone.
I'm hoping for something similar. Hoping.
Dead Cat Bounce
30-07-2005, 21:56
After watching the GP2 series today I'm hoping that well see some thing similar at the F1 meeting , ie , overtaking and racing.
Something tells me that it'll be nothing like that. :(
Not a bad race there, Poor old Jaun though, looked as though he would of won that one, still annoying me that none of the cars can overtake with these stupid new rules, although you cant really overtake anyway at hungary, is it just me or is that mark brundell guy a really shit commentator? was also a bit tight of ron not to talk. maybe ferrari are starting to get there form back a bit, it does look that it is mainly the tyres that are the problem and the cars pretty much ok.
Ich bin ein Mod
31-07-2005, 18:02
Blundell's commentating almost makes his driving look good
Dead Cat Bounce
31-07-2005, 19:20
Well , MS did way better than I thought he would so credit for that.
As for the commentators they're both as bad as each other , I turn off the sound at the start when James Allen screams at the top of his voice , "Ready , Ready! READY!!! GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!"
Reminds me of Alan Partridge.
Well , MS did way better than I thought he would so credit for that.
As for the commentators they're both as bad as each other , I turn off the sound at the start when James Allen screams at the top of his voice , "Ready , Ready! READY!!! GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!"
Reminds me of Alan Partridge.
:D lol! Oh for the days of murray... is the commentary on the radio any better? could just try turning the tv to mute and switching 5live on.
Dead Cat Bounce
31-07-2005, 20:48
The radio reception around here is so bad I'll probably pick up some pirate station instead of Radio 5.
Might have a stab at recording my own commentary and podcast it or something , can't be as bad as the fools that did it today.
Any idea why Brundell didn't turn up today?
Martin always seem to miss a race around this time of year. Is he doing Le Mans prep?
Blundell's commentating almost makes his driving look good
That is a class comment :cool:
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