View Full Version : welsh to appear in all uk passports - d'you agree?
Pickman's model
27-01-2005, 12:14
WELSH is to appear on all UK passports, culture minister Alun Pugh said last night.
The move follows discussions between Assembly ministers and the Home Office.
The Home Office previously agreed to allow the language to be used on the first page of passports issued in Wales.
But now Welsh will take its place alongside other EU languages on all passports issued in the UK.
http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/regionalnews/tm_objectid=15121875&method=full&siteid=50142&headline=welsh-on-all-uk-passports-name_page.html
what d'you reckon? good idea or crap one?
what d'you reckon? good idea or crap one?
Good.
Yossarian
27-01-2005, 12:21
I think it's a good idea, can't really see why anybody would have much of a problem with it.
layabout
27-01-2005, 12:23
http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/regionalnews/tm_objectid=15121875&method=full&siteid=50142&headline=welsh-on-all-uk-passports-name_page.html
what d'you reckon? good idea or crap one?
Crap. English should be the official language of Europe. No other language should be on the passports.
Oh yeah, we should have those big black leather passports back. They were good for slapping jumped up foreign officials with.
Don't really care what they print inside a passport. One way or another I could not care.
Can't see what all the fuss is about :confused:
Pickman's model
27-01-2005, 12:25
Crap. English should be the official language of Europe. No other language should be on the passports.
Oh yeah, we should have those big black leather passports back. They were good for slapping jumped up foreign officials with.yeh. and we should get those big white fivers back, when the pound was a real currency we used them etc etc etc ad nauseam.
Cornish not on the poll?
:mad:
Donna Ferentes
27-01-2005, 12:27
I think we should all speak Latin.
DrRingDing
27-01-2005, 12:28
I think we should all speak Latin.
Ponce!
;)
DrRingDing
27-01-2005, 12:28
I wanna know when Fen Lingo is gunna be recognised Boi!
i am not really that arsed
if they intorduced diff passports for the diff areas i may be but this is neither here nor there for me.
unless traveling to patagonia its not going to make much difference
I think we should all speak Latin.
Typically extreme, Justin. Medieval french would surely suffice.
Crap. English should be the official language of Europe. No other language should be on the passports.
Oh yeah, we should have those big black leather passports back. They were good for slapping jumped up foreign officials with.
On second thoughts...
Thumper Browne
27-01-2005, 12:33
I've already written the Welsh in on mine, in biro! :D
i think its a load of wank
the only reason it matters what country is written on your passport is when you go outside of the EU and why are they gonna give a fuck wether your english/welsh/from slough etc
why is it always the welsh and not the scottish who demand all these 'rights'? could it be that the welsh are more worried about their national identity cos they never got one when it mattered hundreds of years ago?
or am i missing something?
I think we should all speak Latin.
CUM SCRIPTURA DIVINA MULTIPLICITER EXPONI POSSIT, QUOD NULLI
EXPOSITIONI ALIQUIS ITA PRAECISE INHAEREAT QUOD, SI CERTA RATIONE
CONSTITERIT HOC ESSE FALSUM, QUOD ALIQUIS SENSUM SCRIPTURAE ESSE
ASSERERE PRAESUMAT: NE SCRIPTURA EX HOC AB INFIDELIBUS
DERIDEATUR, ET NE EIS VIA CREDENDI PRAECLUDATUR.
i think its a load of wank
the only reason it matters what country is written on your passport is when you go outside of the EU and why are they gonna give a fuck wether your english/welsh/from slough etc
why is it always the welsh and not the scottish who demand all these 'rights'? could it be that the welsh are more worried about their national identity cos they never got one when it mattered hundreds of years ago?
or am i missing something?
sits back with popcorn and beer and waits for ern...
sits back with popcorn and beer and waits for ern...
Sits next to pingu - puts feet up.....
Typically extreme, Justin. Medieval french would surely suffice.
Je le veult :)
I'm surprised at Layabout though, calling for the EU to impose a language on its citizens - and a mongrel language contaminated with Romanche that probably has hidden Catholic leanings, at that.
Frisian is cool though... Ynstellings (http://www.google.co.uk/preferences?hl=fy)
CUM SCRIPTURA DIVINA MULTIPLICITER EXPONI POSSIT, QUOD NULLI
EXPOSITIONI ALIQUIS ITA PRAECISE INHAEREAT QUOD, SI CERTA RATIONE
CONSTITERIT HOC ESSE FALSUM, QUOD ALIQUIS SENSUM SCRIPTURAE ESSE
ASSERERE PRAESUMAT: NE SCRIPTURA EX HOC AB INFIDELIBUS
DERIDEATUR, ET NE EIS VIA CREDENDI PRAECLUDATUR.
I have no idea what that means but it looks like the work of an ancient Roman AOL user.
Pickman's model
27-01-2005, 12:45
i think tobyjug's been at the zoider.
i think tobyjug's been at the zoider.
I think he's a Spingo man :)
i think its a load of wank
the only reason it matters what country is written on your passport is when you go outside of the EU and why are they gonna give a fuck wether your english/welsh/from slough etc
why is it always the welsh and not the scottish who demand all these 'rights'? could it be that the welsh are more worried about their national identity cos they never got one when it mattered hundreds of years ago?
or am i missing something?
No, I'd say you've hit the mark fairly well.
Imagine if instead of spending money on putting the road signs in Welsh and English, they were just in England and the money saved went into the NHS.
...
layabout
27-01-2005, 12:46
Je le veult :)
I'm surprised at Layabout though, calling for the EU to impose a language on its citizens - and a mongrel language contaminated with Romanche that probably has hidden Catholic leanings, at that.
Frisian is cool though... Ynstellings (http://www.google.co.uk/preferences?hl=fy)
I was told by a Dutchman Frisian is very much related to English, more than any other European language. Dunno if it's true or not.
I was told by a Dutchman Frisian is very much related to English, more than any other European language. Dunno if it's true or not.
Is that what cows speak?
Gavin Bl
27-01-2005, 12:47
the welsh are more worried about their national identity cos they never got one when it mattered hundreds of years ago?
Not so much 'never got' as 'taken off us'.
(calmly walks away ............
...........
...........
.....and screams silently into cushion)
I think it's great. Now that I live in Wales I am pro all things Welsh. :)
I was told by a Dutchman Frisian is very much related to English, more than any other European language. Dunno if it's true or not.
It's historically the nearest language to English but it missed out on all the Norman input into the vocabulary so it's still quite different.
Yossarian
27-01-2005, 12:49
the only reason it matters what country is written on your passport is when you go outside of the EU and why are they gonna give a fuck wether your english/welsh/from slough etc
The only bit of the passport that actually means anything is the page with your photo and nationality and that machine-readable bit in it - the rest is just decoration. There's no need for any language at all to be on the first page any more than there's any need for a lion and unicorn to be in the front.
I think he's a Spingo man :)
True. My wife is the rough cider pisshead.
A modern meaning would be beliefs are only set in tablets of stone until proven otherwise.
No, I'd say you've hit the mark fairly well.
Imagine if instead of spending money on putting the road signs in Welsh and English, they were just in England and the money saved went into the NHS.
...
*stokes up the BBQ and gets tranq gun ready for ern*
actually if this isnt tounge in cheek i find it a bit offensive. maybe we should just not bother with the english bits instead (would save on the green paint too)
I think if you're seriously bothered that your near-dead language (whether it be cornish, frisian or welsh) is not on your passport you ought to get a life. Stop obsessing over politics, get a girlfriend/boyfriend, go to the movies, listen to some music, read some philosophy, ANYTHING...
I just don't get it. I don't go around dredging up my saxon roots and demanding variations of german (again, dead languages/cultures) to be artificially reanimated by the state because they lost out in the dog-eat-dog of linguistic adoption.
"Good is what men like"
-Hobbes
(ie, let the linguistic market decide)
*stokes up the BBQ and gets tranq gun ready for ern*
actually if this isnt tounge in cheek i find it a bit offensive. maybe we should just not bother with the english bits instead (would save on the green paint too)
Why do you find it quite offensive? I find it offensive that someone decided to spend extra money on putting Welsh on road signs. To me that is a waste of money.
But this is getting away from the point. As someone else already mentioned, it really matters very little what languages are on a passport as the the photo part and barcode are the most important parts.
G
I think if you're seriously bothered that your near-dead language (whether it be cornish, frisian or welsh) is not on your passport you ought to get a life. Stop obsessing over politics, get a girlfriend/boyfriend, go to the movies, listen to some music, read some philosophy, ANYTHING...
I just don't get it. I don't go around dredging up my saxon roots and demanding variations of german (again, dead languages/cultures) to be artificially reanimated by the state because they lost out in the dog-eat-dog of linguistic adoption.
Bravo to that man there.
Hocus Eye.
27-01-2005, 12:55
CUM SCRIPTURA DIVINA MULTIPLICITER EXPONI POSSIT, QUOD NULLI
EXPOSITIONI ALIQUIS ITA PRAECISE INHAEREAT QUOD, SI CERTA RATIONE
CONSTITERIT HOC ESSE FALSUM, QUOD ALIQUIS SENSUM SCRIPTURAE ESSE
ASSERERE PRAESUMAT: NE SCRIPTURA EX HOC AB INFIDELIBUS
DERIDEATUR, ET NE EIS VIA CREDENDI PRAECLUDATUR.
How dare you sir! You are a cad and a bounder!
Hoc
The Welsh do like to bang on about being Welsh, Pingu
"We've got out own language you know? We must have it on our passport"
Not so much 'never got' as 'taken off us'.
just like every other province of the united kingdom?
I just don't get it. I don't go around dredging up my saxon roots and demanding variations of german
Because you're the incomer :)
Why do you find it quite offensive? I find it offensive that someone decided to spend extra money on putting Welsh on road signs. To me that is a waste of money.
But this is getting away from the point. As someone else already mentioned, it really matters very little what languages are on a passport as the the photo part and barcode are the most important parts.
G
i find it offensive because what you are saying is that the language of the country in which the signs are should not be there. Like it or not there are a lot of Welsh speakers in Wales and their numbers are actually growing.
maybe you should tell the french or the germans that they should not have the road signs in their language too. after all the english have beaten them in various wars too
I am not that hung up about this and do agree that having welsh on a passport will mean very little but maybe part of the problem some welsh people have with some english people is a lack of understanding on the part of the English when it comes to what offends Welsh People.
anyhow i need to get comfy again for when ern spots this.. marshmellow anyone?
Because you're the incomer :)
Well I think it's all a psychological-political mania, induced by the grim blankness of modern, atomic life. People feel alienated from 'the system' so they start creating imagined pasts where 'people like us' lived in a situated, communitarian utopia before 'they' (ie, the culture that they are fully a part of and yet despair of) took it all away.
If you don't like your life, improve it. Don't go creating confucianistic imagined utopias and blaming it all on the system. That's losers talk.
i dont understand whats offensive either about not being arsed about welsh
we have to speak english where i come from, but its actually helped me travel more than a few hundred miles from where i was born so it aint that bad
I think if you're seriously bothered that your near-dead language
In what sense do you consider Welsh to be a dead language? :confused:
Sod the squash and squelsh! ....I want cor blimey cocknee riming slang broot back on passports!
why d0n\'7 7h3y pu7 13375p34k 0n 0ur p455p0r75. 7h3r3\'5 pr08481y m0r3 p30p13 7h47 u53 '7, 4nd 7h3y\'r3 c3r74'n1y m0r3 'mp0r74n7 7h4n 7h3 fuck'n6 w315h
why d0n\'7 7h3y pu7 13375p34k 0n 0ur p455p0r75. 7h3r3\'5 pr08481y m0r3 p30p13 7h47 u53 '7, 4nd 7h3y\'r3 c3r74'n1y m0r3 'mp0r74n7 7h4n 7h3 fuck'n6 w315h
Cos the days of passports are numbered?
Well I think it's all a psychological-political mania, induced by the grim blankness of modern, atomic life. People feel alienated from 'the system' so they start creating imagined pasts where 'people like us' lived in a situated, communitarian utopia before 'they' (ie, the culture that they are fully a part of and yet despair of) took it all away.
If you don't like your life, improve it. Don't go creating confucianistic imagined utopias and blaming it all on the system. That's losers talk.
I do like my life - it's fucking fab. But I'd aslo like for my culture not to be wiped out entirely. The Cornish culture certainly isn't some imagined utopia - it's very real. I haven't blamed anything on any system - are you quite well?
Anyway - my original post was pretty tongue in cheek. I doubt that having an option for cornish language on passports would be of much use and actually doesn't interest me. Seeing English Heritage signs on Cornish historical sites though - that's a different thing entirely. :)
1 where does it say that the Welsh demanded it :confused:
2 the road signs are not in Welsh in england are they :mad: only in Wales
and you're quite welcome to stay your side of the bridge
3 ninjaboy, uralian, gerardm and specially layabout fuckoff with your vitriol :mad:
simple question at start of the thread, no need for this shit again :rolleyes:
personally don't care, would rather have a big hard red dragon on the front mind :D
ernestolynch
27-01-2005, 13:05
I'm not that riled about racist cunts like Uralian, gerardm, and ninjaboy - I'm sure they're all having a great laugh over on Stormfont.
shagged toffee
27-01-2005, 13:07
I'm not that riled about racist cunts like Uralian, gerardm, and ninjaboy - I'm sure they're all having a great laugh over on Stormfont.
What about?
kyser_soze
27-01-2005, 13:09
If you're from Wales fine, but on all UK passports? Don't really see the point meself...
TBH I'm more insulted by having to pay £5 to get into Wales in the first place and yet it's free to get back into civilisation...
I'm not that riled about racist cunts like Uralian, gerardm, and ninjaboy - I'm sure they're all having a great laugh over on Stormfont.
Because I consider Welsh to be a waste of time as a language I am a 'racist cunt'.
Grow up. And if you have to resort to using the c-word then you are somewhat shallow and lacking in real argument.
why d0n\'7 7h3y pu7 13375p34k 0n 0ur p455p0r75. 7h3r3\'5 pr08481y m0r3 p30p13 7h47 u53 '7, 4nd 7h3y\'r3 c3r74'n1y m0r3 'mp0r74n7 7h4n 7h3 fuck'n6 w315h
Hahaha.
:rolleyes:
thought u had a functioning brain kaiser
Because I consider Welsh to be a waste of time as a language I am a 'racist cunt'.
Grow up. And if you have to resort to using the c-word then you are somewhat shallow and lacking in real argument.
roflmao - the 'c' word! Are you for real?
What about?
Probably 'Paki' and 'Jewboy' jokes
i find it offensive because what you are saying is that the language of the country in which the signs are should not be there. Like it or not there are a lot of Welsh speakers in Wales and their numbers are actually growing.
maybe you should tell the french or the germans that they should not have the road signs in their language too. after all the english have beaten them in various wars too
I will stand to be correct but it seems that Welsh is not even an official language of Wales. According to the EU it is classed as a 'Regional or Minority Language'. Yes it is used by government bodies as a language but that does not make it an official language.
Someone feel free to correct me.
I'm not that riled about racist cunts like Uralian, gerardm, and ninjaboy - I'm sure they're all having a great laugh over on Stormfont.
still dont underdstand how i'm being racist :(
i just think that its a bit poncey
places keep their identity by people doing amazing stuff and reflecting their surroundings, not by putting signposts up
I think if its that important to people then by all means let them put dragons and welsh language wherever they like, it just a bit odd to me coming from the north east of england which has a strong identity without any need for all the paraphenalia.....
roflmao - the 'c' word! Are you for real?
I swear all the time but I hate the word cunt. I think it is disgusting and pretty much the lowest of the low.
It even pains me to type it.
G
Originally Posted by gerardm
Because I consider Welsh to be a waste of time as a language I am a 'racist cunt'.
why do u consider Welsh to be a waste of time, why does it bother you :confused:
grow the fuck up child :mad:
still dont underdstand how i'm being racist :(
i just think that its a bit poncey
places keep their identity by people doing amazing stuff and reflecting their surroundings, not by putting signposts up
I think if its that important to people then by all means let them put dragons and welsh language wherever they like, it just a bit odd to me coming from the north east of england which has a strong identity without any need for all the paraphenalia.....
But if someone wanted to come and put all your signs in welsh how would you feel?
still dont underdstand how i'm being racist :(
i just think that its a bit poncey
places keep their identity by people doing amazing stuff and reflecting their surroundings, not by putting signposts up
I think if its that important to people then by all means let them put dragons and welsh language wherever they like, it just a bit odd to me coming from the north east of england which has a strong identity without any need for all the paraphenalia.....
Its not 'paraphenalia' its people Language FFS :mad:
kyser_soze
27-01-2005, 13:16
:rolleyes:
thought u had a functioning brain kaiser
Thought you had a sense of humour.
I take a ton of shit coming from Essex but don't scream about it...Jesus...
G
Have a hobnob and a sit down - you'll be fine. :)
Cunt is pretty much a common currency round here - how do you cope?
lol
:D
I will stand to be correct but it seems that Welsh is not even an official language of Wales. According to the EU it is classed as a 'Regional or Minority Language'. Yes it is used by government bodies as a language but that does not make it an official language.
Someone feel free to correct me.
Looking into this further, the UK has no official language. The EU recognises languages for officialdom; English is one of them, Welsh is not.
Interesting.
G
But if someone wanted to come and put all your signs in welsh how would you feel?
well i wouldnt understand them, but welsh people speak english and the welsh signs have only been up about 10 years no?
I swear all the time but I hate the word cunt. I think it is disgusting and pretty much the lowest of the low.
It even pains me to type it.
G
Well if you dont want to be called a Cunt dont act like one :rolleyes:
Have a hobnob and a sit down - you'll be fine. :)
Cunt is pretty much a common currency round here - how do you cope?
lol
:D
chocolate hobnob if you have any.
whilst witnessing someone else being called a cunt is bad, it's somewhat worse when you are being called one yourself.
either way, it's a horrible word.
Looking into this further, the UK has no official language. The EU recognises languages for officialdom; English is one of them, Welsh is not.
Interesting.
G
I cvould do with some input from Ground Elder or somoene on this but I think our MP for West Cornwall has got the EU to recognise Cornish as an official language. I may be completely wrong - it's rare but it happens :D
I'm right. They do recognise it as an official minority language
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3503716
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 13:19
Looking into this further, the UK has no official language. The EU recognises languages for officialdom; English is one of them, Welsh is not.
Interesting.
G
Unfortunately for you, Welsh and English are official languages of government in Wales, and have been since the Welsh Language Acts of 1967 and 1993. They are of equal status- which is why acts of government relating to wales are produced bilingually.
Who was it who said this place had got progressively more right wing recently?
:(
well i wouldnt understand them, but welsh people speak english and the welsh signs have only been up about 10 years no?
Welsh people do indeed speak english but it's not their national language.
well i wouldnt understand them, but welsh people speak english and the welsh signs have only been up about 10 years no?
The signs have been bilingual for as long as I remember (I'm 32).
Around 500,000 people speak Cymraeg fluently, many more have some knowledge of the language. Its a living breathing language, and in some areas of the country the majority language.
It was only at the start of the 20th Century that it became the minority language, after campaigns to stamp it out by London, fortunately it survived and is now growing again.
10 years!!!
you having a giraffe?
I think if its that important to people then by all means let them put dragons and welsh language wherever they like, it just a bit odd to me coming from the north east of england which has a strong identity without any need for all the paraphenalia.....
put some whippets on your fukin signs for all i care
<gets SoH back> see KS ;)
oh and gerardm - see you next tuesday, better?
CUNT :mad:
kyser_soze
27-01-2005, 13:21
Who was it who said this place had got progressively more right wing recently?
Someone on the opposite side to those who say it's a 'left wing' place...both usually get jumped on because it's a 'no-wing' place...
And taking the piss out of Wales isn't right wing...
why is it always the welsh and not the scottish who demand all these 'rights'? could it be that the welsh are more worried about their national identity cos they never got one when it mattered hundreds of years ago?What the fuck are you on about?
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 13:23
I cvould do with some input from Ground Elder or somoene on this but I think our MP for West Cornwall has got the EU to recognise Cornish as an official language. I may be completely wrong - it's rare but it happens :D
Kernewek is recognised at the level below Welsh and has been by both the UK government and the EU, since 2002. Both levels of governmetn recognise it as an official minority language- something which the UK governemnt is bound to defend and recognise, although not to the extent of conducting governemnt business relevant to Cornwall bilingually, which includes road signs.
Kernewek is recognised at the level below Welsh and has been by both the UK government and the EU, since 2002. Both levels of governmetn recognise it as an official minority language- something which the UK governemnt is bound to defend and recognise, although not to the extent of conducting governemnt business relevant to Cornwall bilingually, which includes road signs.
Thank you kindly :D
Imagine if instead of spending money on putting the road signs in Welsh and English, they were just in England and the money saved went into the NHS....Piss weak troll.
I mean fair play and all that, but as someone from a part of england with a strong identity and pride, despite speaking english and not having a flag a passport, signposts etc it just seems a bit sad to me
and without wanting to offend the nationalists, is nationalism not a bit conservative really?
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 13:26
I mean fair play and all that, but as someone from a part of england with a strong identity and pride, despite speaking english and not having a flag a passport, signposts etc it just seems a bit sad to me
and without wanting to offend the nationalists, is nationalism not a bit conservative really?
ethnic nationalism of BNP- yes
civic nationalism of Plaid/SNP/MK/SDLP- no
regional identity of Geordies- no
Piss weak troll.
I'm not trolling. Why do people always pull that one out of the bag when they disgaree with something said?
as someone from a part of england with a strong identity and pride, despite speaking english and not having a flag a passport, signposts etc it just seems a bit sad to me
where's that jealous smiley :confused:
didn't you have a resounding NO vote recently? shame
maybe you could start another campaign, you'd get my support, when ya grow up
But if someone wanted to come and put all your signs in welsh how would you feel?
Great. How cool would the Tube map look? Pont yr Llundain, Ty Fawr...
I think if you're seriously bothered that your near-dead language (whether it be cornish, frisian or welsh) is not on your passport you ought to get a life. Please explain how a growing language (2001 census statistics show a 2.3% rise) spoken by over 20% of the population is 'near dead'?
What the fuck are you on about?
well the scottish dont seem to be take nationalism as seriously as the welsh, but scotland has an identity easily recognisable around the world despite not having an official language or 'special' passports
Because I consider Welsh to be a waste of time as a language I am a 'racist cunt'.Why's it a waste of time?
I'm not trolling. Why do people always pull that one out of the bag when they disgaree with something said?
coz your point is not a point is it cummon?
how much difference do you think that would really make, an extra line of text?
start a campaign on the excess of traffic cones or something/anything would be more constructive :rolleyes:
well the scottish dont seem to be take nationalism as seriously as the welsh,What are you basing that wild claim on?
Not history or fact, that's for sure.
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 13:32
well the scottish dont seem to be take nationalism as seriously as the welsh, but scotland has an identity easily recognisable around the world despite not having an official language or 'special' passports
Sheer ignorance again.
Scottish Gaelic is recognised as an official language the same as Welsh.
Why not try doing some research before posting?
Why's it a waste of time?
Primarily because the % of people who JUST speak Welsh is tiny. Whilst I am not representative, I know a wide age range of Welsh speakers and they do not know anyone who just speaks Welsh.
That is why the langauge is totally different to German, French etc and why having road signs, official correspondance etc is a total waste of time and money.
G
where's that jealous smiley :confused:
didn't you have a resounding NO vote recently? shame
maybe you could start another campaign, you'd get my support, when ya grow up
actually i couldnt give a fuck about a regional assembly, with regards to
newcaslte i am bothered about
1) The football team
2) Getting the fuck out
wheres the 'missed the fuckin point' smiley :)
ethnic nationalism of BNP- yes
civic nationalism of Plaid/SNP/MK/SDLP- no
regional identity of Geordies- no
Read lenin lately?
well i wouldnt understand them, but welsh people speak english and the welsh signs have only been up about 10 years no?Your ignorance astounds me.
There's been signs written in Welsh for centuries, because that's the language the majority of the population spoke for many hundreds of years.
Don't you know any history?
out of interest
should signs in urdu, chinese or other languages sometimes found within various communities in the UK also be removed and replaced with ones in english only?
i know the lcomparison is a loose one but if anyone suggested taking down the signs in soho with chinese writing on on the basis that its not the official language of the country they are in then I am guessing there would be various cries of racism etc etc. why is it different for welsh?
Primarily because the % of people who JUST speak Welsh is tiny. Completely wrong.
Full census figures published on Thursday reveal that more than 20% of people in Wales now speak Welsh. Figures revealed that 20.5% - more than one in five - of the population are Welsh speakers. This compares with 18.5% of Welsh speakers in the 1991 census.
In addition, more than 28% able to understand Welsh.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2755217.stm
Sheer ignorance again.
Why not try doing some research before posting?
um, don't know sir
I know about scottish national identity from scottish films, books and bands
funnily enough i was completely unaware of the EU's official list of official languages being completely unaffected by it.
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 13:37
Primarily because the % of people who JUST speak Welsh is tiny. Whilst I am not representative, I know a wide age range of Welsh speakers and they do not know anyone who just speaks Welsh.
That is why the langauge is totally different to German, French etc and why having road signs, official correspondance etc is a total waste of time and money.
G
Approx 20 % of the population of Wales speaks Welsh- between 400,000 and 500,000 people.
In North and parts of West Wales- the Lleyn peninsula, Ceredigion, Gwynedd- the language is spoken as a living means of communication. The highest number of speakers, if memory serves, is is Caernarfon, where 80% plus have Welsh as a first language.
Do you live in wales? Do you know anything about the language other than a few daily mail style prejudices?
Doesn;t look that way, to be honest. hence editor's "piss weak troll".
I'm not trolling. Why do people always pull that one out of the bag when they disgaree with something said?I was assuming that someone posting up such ignorant and offensive material could only be a troll.
Or thick as shit.
Maybe it's the latter.
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 13:40
Read lenin lately?
No.
Have you?
Or one of Nairn, Hechter, Gellner, or indeed a whole body of writing realting to differing catgories of regional/national/supranational identity & the diverse range of its political expression?
Your ignorance astounds me.
There's been signs written in Welsh for centuries, because that's the language the majority of the population spoke for many hundreds of years.
Don't you know any history?
sorry boss...
we dont get taught welsh history up here (dern it!)
i dont understand why i'm expected to research your country just to have an opinion about it
well the scottish dont seem to be take nationalism as seriously as the welsh, Say goodbye to your piss weak argument:
"In fact, those living in Wales are more likely to consider themselves as British (35%) than Scotland, (27%) but less likely than those in England (48%)."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2755217.stm
If you don't want to appear so terminally clueless in the future you may want to research and compare the voting figures for the Scottish and Welsh assemblies.
Approx 20 % of the population of Wales speaks Welsh- between 400,000 and 500,000 people.
In North and parts of West Wales- the Lleyn peninsula, Ceredigion, Gwynedd- the language is spoken as a living means of communication. The highest number of speakers, if memory serves, is is Caernarfon, where 80% plus have Welsh as a first language.
Do you live in wales? Do you know anything about the language other than a few daily mail style prejudices?
Doesn;t look that way, to be honest. hence editor's "piss weak troll".
Right, give me a % then, as a total population of Wales. How many people either JUST speak Welsh or Welsh as a primary language to the point that their English is weak?
Because so far you and editor haven't give me that.
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 13:42
um, don't know sir
I know about scottish national identity from scottish films, books and bands
funnily enough i was completely unaware of the EU's official list of official languages being completely unaffected by it.
Why are you clogging up this thread with your ill informed drivel then?
I know, I'll go off to some gaming threads in the technology forum and intervene with helpful remarks like "what's a mouse" and "has anyone seen that new game, Pac-Man"....
:rolleyes:
I was assuming that someone posting up such ignorant and offensive material could only be a troll.
Or thick as shit.
Maybe it's the latter.
I find the attitude of Welsh assholes who burn holiday homes ignorant and offensive. Or maybe they are thick as shit too.
G
Sasaferrato
27-01-2005, 13:43
i think its a load of wank
the only reason it matters what country is written on your passport is when you go outside of the EU and why are they gonna give a fuck wether your english/welsh/from slough etc
why is it always the welsh and not the scottish who demand all these 'rights'? could it be that the welsh are more worried about their national identity cos they never got one when it mattered hundreds of years ago?
or am i missing something?
We don't, or at least I don't. The amount of money spent promoting the linguistic irrelevancies of Welsh and Gaelic is a disgrace. Let's try and get our young people to learn to speak English properly, never mind redundant curiousities like Welsh and Gaelic.
Either Welsh and Gaelic are live languages in which case they don't need stste funding, or, they are dead and let's bury the fucking things.
I suspect that there are enough enthusiasts ensure the survival of both.
i dont understand why i'm expected to research your country just to have an opinion about itIf you want to show people how ignorant you are, that's certainly a good way to go about it.
ernestolynch
27-01-2005, 13:43
Right, give me a % then, as a total population of Wales. How many people either JUST speak Welsh or Welsh as a primary language to the point that their English is weak?
Because so far you and editor haven't give me that.
Fuck off back to Stormfront you racist prick. Would you agree with the Germans removing all French roadsigns in ww2?
Oh aye - of course you would - 88, 14 and God Save the Queen eh?
General Ludd
27-01-2005, 13:44
the welsh are more worried about their national identity cos they never got one when it mattered hundreds of years ago?
Not so much 'never got' as 'taken off us'.
Given that nationalism (and the 'nation') is a modern phenomenem - late 18th Century/early 19th Century in Europe - it'd have been very tricky for a national identity to have been 'taken away' or 'never taken off' hundreds of years ago. It's like saying there were no major mergers between banks in 1086, the concept has no meaning in that time period. Welsh nationalism and national identity didn't emerge until the mid 19th century (which isn't do doubt that Welsh national identity isn't a real thing, just that like all nationalisms it is something modern and so appeals to ancient history make no sense and have no relevance).
(For the really bored or boring: at the end of the 18th Century the United Kingdom was thought of as 3 kingdoms, Wales being a principality of England, whilst at the end of the 19th Century the United Kingdom had become 4 nations.)
but welsh people speak english and the welsh signs have only been up about 10 years no?
Some older people where I live do not speak english, only Welsh.
Welsh is the first language round here for the majority.
Sasaferrato
27-01-2005, 13:45
Right, give me a % then, as a total population of Wales. How many people either JUST speak Welsh or Welsh as a primary language to the point that their English is weak?
Because so far you and editor haven't give me that.
I doubt if there is a single person left in Scotland who speaks only Gaelic, I should imagine that Wales is just the same.
Pickman's model
27-01-2005, 13:45
i dont understand why i'm expected to research your country just to have an opinion about it
a whip is for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the back of fools.
I find the attitude of Welsh assholes who burn holiday homes ignorant and offensive.Perhaps you might remind me when the holiday home burning campaign was taking place in Wales and then explain its relevance to this debate?
yeah well you're opinion ain't gonna stand up if it aon't informed eh!! :mad:
and i get a slap if i talk to the elders in my village in english :eek:
I find the attitude of Welsh assholes who burn holiday homes ignorant and offensive. Or maybe they are thick as shit too.
G
I think you should come here and say that. :mad:
Fuck off back to Stormfront you racist prick. Would you agree with the Germans removing all French roadsigns in ww2?
Oh aye - of course you would - 88, 14 and God Save the Queen eh?
Oh please. I can't think of a person who needs less saving than the friggin' Queen.
Shame you didn't say Nazis because we would have hit the Internet debate holy grail.
General Ludd
27-01-2005, 13:46
Would you agree with the Germans removing all French roadsigns in ww2?
There is a difference between making all signs in a language not understood by the local population (German signs in France) and making signs in just one of the languages understood by the local population (English signs in Wales).
ernestolynch
27-01-2005, 13:47
I find the attitude of Welsh assholes who burn holiday homes ignorant and offensive. Or maybe they are thick as shit too.
G
Ah-ha - 'assholes' - you're either an American Fascist troll, or some fat-necked bald Saxon inbred with eyes like piss'oles in the snow, and a predeliction for fucking Thai children....
Right, give me a % then, as a total population of Wales. How many people either JUST speak Welsh or Welsh as a primary language to the point that their English is weak?How does the ability of a Welsh speaker to speak other languages advance your 'argument'?
Pickman's model
27-01-2005, 13:47
I find the attitude of Welsh assholes who burn holiday homes ignorant and offensive. Or maybe they are thick as shit too.
G
it's said that it is better to keep quiet and have people believe you a fool, than open yr mouth and prove it.
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 13:48
We don't, or at least I don't. The amount of money spent promoting the linguistic irrelevancies of Welsh and Gaelic is a disgrace. Let's try and get our young people to learn to speak English properly, never mind redundant curiousities like Welsh and Gaelic.
Either Welsh and Gaelic are live languages in which case they don't need stste funding, or, they are dead and let's bury the fucking things.
I suspect that there are enough enthusiasts ensure the survival of both.
So, people who speak a language on a daily basis shouldn;t receive funding in order to help them speak it better?
Only "the Queen's English" is fit for state funding?
I doubt even Michael Forsyth or Gerald Warner would agree with you, you Tory unionist arse.
PS do you know how little is actually given to gaelic up here? facts? Figuyres? or is this yet another over-reaction to a scare story in the Edinburgh evening News? The fact that it receives less than chicken feed from central government is contributing largely to its contemporary decline.
Still, your contempt for such rich and diverse cultures is duly noted.
:rolleyes:
Sheer ignorance again.
Scottish Gaelic is recognised as an official language the same as Welsh.
Why not try doing some research before posting?
But they don't force kids to learn it in schools and brainwash them into a learning a dead language as part of their national identity*. They don't insist that the BBC do subtitles in Gaelic. Have stations dedicated to a dead language that a small percentage speak.
Reminds me of the Basque provinces in Spain....
*OK They don't go to quite those lengths!
Perhaps you might remind me when the holiday home burning campaign was taking place in Wales and then explain its relevance to this debate?
It was a filppant comment design to elicit a response. Whilst it was a few years back, there have rumblings it may be on the up again. I really hope not as, IMHO, whose assholes give the rest of Wales an extremely bad name.
G
..., and a predeliction for fucking Thai children....Line. Stepped over.
Please don't do it again.
ernestolynch
27-01-2005, 13:48
There is a difference between making all signs in a language not understood by the local population (German signs in France) and making signs in just one of the languages understood by the local population (English signs in Wales).
No there isn't. The French could learn the Kraut tongue in a few weeks.
ernestolynch
27-01-2005, 13:49
Line. Stepped over.
Please don't do it again.
Soz - just commenting on a popular English pastime.
Pickman's model
27-01-2005, 13:49
No there isn't. The French could learn the Kraut tongue in a few weeks.but they still refuse to speak english. :confused:
Ah-ha - 'assholes' - you're either an American Fascist troll, or some fat-necked bald Saxon inbred with eyes like piss'oles in the snow, and a predeliction for fucking Thai children....
What the fuck? I call people assholes who burn holiday homes that belong to English people and you call me a Fascist?
I feel there is no point in continuing talking to you anymore.
In Bloom
27-01-2005, 13:51
stations dedicated to a dead language that a small percentage speak.
20% is a small percentage of the population is it? :rolleyes:
ernestolynch
27-01-2005, 13:51
Well this thread seems to have unearthed all the lilywhite Britnat posters who joined en-masse from Stormfront a few months back...
It was a filppant comment design to elicit a response. Whilst it was a few years back, there have rumblings it may be on the up again. I really hope not as, IMHO, whose assholes give the rest of Wales an extremely bad nameSo a tiny minority of people who took part in a minor campaign decades ago are still somehow giving Wales a 'bad name' because you detect some mysterious " rumblings" that it may happen again?
As a troll it's very, very weak and as an argument, it's positively embarrassing
It was a filppant comment design to elicit a response. Whilst it was a few years back, there have rumblings it may be on the up again. I really hope not as, IMHO, whose assholes give the rest of Wales an extremely bad name.
G
I Still can't believe people remember that, and go on about it - it was YEARS ago , and wasn't it only two or three cottages?
ernestolynch
27-01-2005, 13:52
but they still refuse to speak english. :confused:
It's a fucking outrage - how dare they, pesky Frogs, what what?
Pickman's model
27-01-2005, 13:53
Well this thread seems to have unearthed all the lilywhite Britnat posters who joined en-masse from Stormfront a few months back... :o one does one's best.
:p
Funky_monks
27-01-2005, 13:53
I doubt if there is a single person left in Scotland who speaks only Gaelic, I should imagine that Wales is just the same.
Well you imagine wrong then. When I was in hospital in Aberystwyth, a fair ammount of the old folks in there had real difficulty understanding the menu as it was only in English, and they'd often order the wrong thing if the nurses werent around to translate for them.
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 13:54
But they don't force kids to learn it in schools and brainwash them into a learning a dead language as part of their national identity*. They don't insist that the BBC do subtitles in Gaelic. Have stations dedicated to a dead language that a small percentage speak.
Reminds me of the Basque provinces in Spain....
*OK They don't go to quite those lengths!
Actually, there is gaelic television on STV up here- just the same as S4C in Wales, only less extensive. plans are well advanced for a gaelic satellite channel, too.
I'm not sure what yr definition of a 'dead language', is, but I;d like to see the results of you going out in caernarfon on a friday night and telling the locals their language is dead.
I'll come and visit you in hospital afterwards.
We don't, or at least I don't. The amount of money spent promoting the linguistic irrelevancies of Welsh and Gaelic is a disgrace. Let's try and get our young people to learn to speak English properly, never mind redundant curiousities like Welsh and Gaelic.
Either Welsh and Gaelic are live languages in which case they don't need stste funding, or, they are dead and let's bury the fucking things.
I suspect that there are enough enthusiasts ensure the survival of both.
What? How much money does it actually cost to run off a few extra pamphlets and put an extra line on all the road signs? Do you actually have a figure for this or are you just presuming? There are people for whom Welsh is a first language. Neither Welsh nor Haelic are 'dead' languages though they've both come close. Every time a language dies we lose another thread of human culture. (Welsh and Gaelic are particularly interesting languages because of their Verb - Subject - Object word order which according to some linguists is the 'default' order of human language). My university actually pays people to stay in far flung corners of the world trying to record dying languages (google soas and endangered language program) precisely because languages are incredibly good records of people's cultures as well as being of central imprtance to people's cultural identity. Quite frankly, to so much as mention the fact that it costs a couple of extra quid to write street signs in 2 languages while billions are being spent slaughtering Iraqis is not just extremely reactionary but idiotic.
20% is a small percentage of the population is it? :rolleyes:
20% of us speak Welsh? Perhaps in a survey taking in Welsh town in Wales, on St. David's Day ;)
In Bloom
27-01-2005, 13:56
20% of us speak Welsh? Perhaps in a survey taking in Welsh town in Wales, on St. David's Day ;)
Christ, how many fucking times :rolleyes:
Census shows Welsh language rise (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2755217.stm)
Full census figures published on Thursday reveal that more than 20% of people in Wales now speak Welsh. Figures revealed that 20.5% - more than one in five - of the population are Welsh speakers. This compares with 18.5% of Welsh speakers in the 1991 census.
In addition, more than 28% able to understand Welsh.
Actually, there is gaelic television on STV up here- just the same as S4C in Wales, only less extensive. plans are well advanced for a gaelic satellite channel, too.
I'm not sure what yr definition of a 'dead language', is, but I;d like to see the results of you going out in caernarfon on a friday night and telling the locals their language is dead.
I'll come and visit you in hospital afterwards.
Well if I went into any place on a Friday night and insulted anyone about what they hold close to their heart, I'd get a kicking. What's your point - because Welsh speaking muppets would kick my head in the language is alive n well? :)
Sasaferrato
27-01-2005, 13:57
So, people who speak a language on a daily basis shouldn;t receive funding in order to help them speak it better?
Only "the Queen's English" is fit for state funding?
I doubt even Michael Forsyth or Gerald Warner would agree with you, you Tory unionist arse.
PS do you know how little is actually given to gaelic up here? facts? Figuyres? or is this yet another over-reaction to a scare story in the Edinburgh evening News? The fact that it receives less than chicken feed from central government is contributing largely to its contemporary decline.
Still, your contempt for such rich and diverse cultures is duly noted.
:rolleyes:
Fuck off you fucking rude and patronising cunt.
The Gaelic college on Islay was given £1.5m in startup funds last year, my wife comes from there. I was brought up from the ages of three to fourteen in Harris, North Uist and South Uist . Have you even vistited these places.
It would seem to be you who has fuck all idea on the subject.
From SE website
The 2001 Census recorded 65,674 people aged three or over as being able to speak, read, or write Gaelic - 1.3 per cent of the Scottish population.
The Executive provides £8.5m a year for Gaelic broadcasting. Grant is paid to the Gaelic Media Service (GMS).
Gaelic is the only language of teaching (other than English) for which the Executive provides specific funding. Specific grants have been increased to £3.034m over the past 5 years. In addition, £0.4m is allocated to Gaelic-medium pre-school education.
But they don't force kids to learn it in schools and brainwash them into a learning a dead language as part of their national identity*. They don't insist that the BBC do subtitles in Gaelic. Have stations dedicated to a dead language that a small percentage speak.You are aware, of course, that children taught throught the medium of Welsh have tended to do better in the curriculum and to show slightly higher performance in tests and examinations?
And that there is growing evidence that bilinguals tend to find it easier to learn a third language?
And that growing numbers of English speaking parents are sending their children to Welsh schools?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/schoolgate/aboutschool/content/inwelsh.shtml
And how can you argue against these benefits?
One of the advantages of being bilingual is having access to two cultures - two different worlds of experience. With a language comes idiom and sayings, folk stories and history, poetry, literature and music, both traditional and contemporary.
Reading and writing in two languages means a bilingual person can enjoy literature in both original languages. This can create a deeper understanding of different traditions and ways of thinking and behaving. The pleasures of reading novels, poetry and magazines and the enjoyment of writing to friends and family are all doubled for bilingual people.
The Gaelic college on Islay was given £1.5m in startup funds last year, my wife comes from there. I was brought up from the ages of three to fourteen in Harris, North Uist and South Uist . Have you even vistited these places.
That's really not a lot of money to open a college on. How many students do they have?
Christ, how many fucking times :rolleyes:
Yeah I seen the stats. Very nice they are too, 20% of the people that have completed the survey (in Wales) speak Welsh. Well fucking hell, knock me down with a feather. What's next? 20% of people from Newcastle use geordie words in their dialect :eek:
Pickman's model
27-01-2005, 14:00
That's really not a lot of money to open a college on. How many students do they have?norralot. at a guess.
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 14:01
Fuck off you fucking rude and patronising cunt.
The Gaelic college on Islay was given £1.5m in startup funds last year, my wife comes from there. I was brought up from the ages of three to fourteen in Harris, North Uist and South Uist . Have you even vistited these places.
It would seem to be you who has fuck all idea on the subject.
A whole £1.5 million!!!!!
It's chickenfeed in governemnt spending terms. Less than chickenfeed, in fact.
What exactly is your problem with funsing a college, anyway? Somewhere I know far more about- being professionally linked to there- than you ever will.
Wanker. back to your Daily mail and Fox news.
:rolleyes:
In Bloom
27-01-2005, 14:02
Yeah I seen the stats. Very nice they are too, 20% of the people that have completed the survey (in Wales) speak Welsh. Well fucking hell, knock me down with a feather. :eek:
You mean the national census that was sent out to everyone? Lets not forget that this was during foot and mouth, so the more rural areas of Wales (where Welsh is likely more common) were cut off.
You are aware, of course, that children taught throught the medium of Welsh have tended to do better in the curriculum and to show slightly higher performance in tests and examinations?
And that there is growing evidence that bilinguals tend to find it easier to learn a third language?
And that growing numbers of English speaking parents are sending their children to Welsh schools?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/schoolgate/aboutschool/content/inwelsh.shtml
And how can you argue against these benefits?
Exactly, given that children in Wales are more likely to have access to a proper second language environment than children learning French in England, it makes educational, and quite possibly economic sense for them to learn Welsh rather than the French or German that they'll have forgotten by the time their eightenn and is more likely to male them able to deal with other foreign languages than stale classes running through French verb conjugations.
Yeah I seen the stats. Very nice they are too, 20% of the people that have completed the survey (in Wales) speak Welsh. So the figure could be higher. Or lower. Or exactly right.
But the school figures show a definite increase.
i just dont understand if wales is so important to people, that they consider it 'endangered'
what i was saying was that i'm just a normal dude. wouldnt consider myself ignorant at all, but i didnt know that scottish was a language but i knew scotland has a culture. not cos of a government campaign but cos of the good scottish films i've seen (funded by filmfour and the EU more than scotland btw) and books i've read
the welsh national identity seems to be on a par with the bagpipe brigade from scotland
personally i dont believe in nationalism at all, i am not proud of my english language or passport, it has been useful, and i recognise i am lucky to be born in a priveledged part of the world. but my identity comes from real life
if all else fails, go to wales
peace
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 14:04
You mean the national census that was sent out to everyone? Lets not forget that this was during foot and mouth, so the more rural areas of Wales (where Welsh is likely more common) were cut off.
In Bloom-don't feed the troll.
Pickman's model
27-01-2005, 14:05
That's really not a lot of money to open a college on. How many students do they have?
Ionad Chaluim Chille Ile employs 4 people full-time and services up to 12 full-time students and four post-graduate research students annually
General Ludd
27-01-2005, 14:05
You mean the national census that was sent out to everyone? Lets not forget that this was during foot and mouth, so the more rural areas of Wales (where Welsh is likely more common) were cut off.
The census wasn't affected by foot and mouth, people in foot and mouth affected areas were posted the forms and allowed to post them back without having to have an Enumerator come round.
layabout
27-01-2005, 14:06
I swear all the time but I hate the word cunt. I think it is disgusting and pretty much the lowest of the low.
It even pains me to type it.
G
Yes but cunt is an English word, not Welsh, so I can't see what you are moaning about. Daft twat.
Yes but cunt is an English word, not Welsh, so I can't see what you are moaning about. Daft twat.
Seriously, what the hell are you going on about?
Sasaferrato
27-01-2005, 14:08
That's really not a lot of money to open a college on. How many students do they have?
Seven.
Pickman's model
27-01-2005, 14:08
I swear all the time but I hate the word cunt. I think it is disgusting and pretty much the lowest of the low.
It even pains me to type it.
Gyou are a poxy jackeen.
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 14:08
Ionad Chaluim Chille Ile employs 4 people full-time and services up to 12 full-time students and four post-graduate research students annually
...and in time will become a vitally important component of the cultural & intellectual life of the Islands- a focus for those wishing to study in Gaelic that it's lacked since the C18th.
General Ludd
27-01-2005, 14:09
Ionad Chaluim Chille Ile employs 4 people full-time and services up to 12 full-time students and four post-graduate research students annually
That is a huge amount of money then. IIRC the standard funding is around £8000pa per higher education student.
i didnt know that scottish was a language but i knew scotland has a culture.
It's not. Gaelic is a language but there is no Scottish as a language.
you are a poxy jackeen.
This really is becoming too painful for words.
You are aware, of course, that children taught throught the medium of Welsh have tended to do better in the curriculum and to show slightly higher performance in tests and examinations?
And that there is growing evidence that bilinguals tend to find it easier to learn a third language?
And that growing numbers of English speaking parents are sending their children to Welsh schools?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/schoolgate/aboutschool/content/inwelsh.shtml
And how can you argue against these benefits?
I Personally just think that the language has no real use outside of Wales I can see why it would be easier to learn a third language if you already know two. But would it not be better to teach kids a widespread European language first, and Welsh third? Ability to speak German or Spanish is a damn site more useful imo.
I think there's a difference between holding onto your heritage and being ensuring the survival of it, and using it as a measure of difference. To deliberately alienate the Welsh from the English and vice versa. Both parties are guilty of it.
Seven.
That's less than half what Pickman's claiming. Do you have a source? Doesn't seem particularly unreasonable, one and a half mill is a mere speck in terms of government funding and it's nice to see money spent on education rather than bombs.
Pickman's model
27-01-2005, 14:12
what's so bloody painful about typing the word 'cunt'?
dropping a stone on yr foot's painful - but typing a word?
ninjaboyi am not proud of my english language or passport
nutshell
goodbye :D
i think its a load of wank
the only reason it matters what country is written on your passport is when you go outside of the EU and why are they gonna give a fuck wether your english/welsh/from slough etc
why is it always the welsh and not the scottish who demand all these 'rights'? could it be that the welsh are more worried about their national identity cos they never got one when it mattered hundreds of years ago?
or am i missing something?
You're missing something. A brain!
Pickman's model
27-01-2005, 14:13
That's less than half what Pickman's claiming. Do you have a source? Doesn't seem particularly unreasonable, one and a half mill is a mere speck in terms of government funding and it's nice to see money spent on education rather than bombs.:o
my source is a paper from 2000. i fear sasaferrato's probably nearer the mark.
Sasaferrato
27-01-2005, 14:13
A whole £1.5 million!!!!!
It's chickenfeed in governemnt spending terms. Less than chickenfeed, in fact.
What exactly is your problem with funsing a college, anyway? Somewhere I know far more about- being professionally linked to there- than you ever will.
Wanker. back to your Daily mail and Fox news.
:rolleyes:
Thick cunt. I was a fairly fluent speaker of Gaelic in my youth. Can still follow a conversation, can you?
1.9% of Scots speak Gaelic.
The expenditure is a wonderful " Jobs for the boys " environment, a total and absolute waste of money.
That is a huge amount of money then. IIRC the standard funding is around £8000pa per higher education student.
Remember the money was an endowment, not one year's funding
It's not. Gaelic is a language but there is no Scottish as a language.
Well there are at least two distinct Scottish dialects of English as well as Scottish Gaelic which has some level of cross intelligibilty with but is distinct from Irish Gaelic. But there isn't a language called 'Scottish' no, probably because 'Scottish' is an English word.
Sasaferrato
27-01-2005, 14:14
:o
my source is a paper from 2000. i fear sasaferrato's probably nearer the mark.
My figure is from the Scottish Executive web site, and is if anything on the high side.
Could someone please translate into Welsh:
« Le vrai problème, c'est que les pauvres Anglophones ont peur q'on discute leurs faiblesses et le fragilité de leurs identités. Et ils ont raison. »
:)
what's so bloody painful about typing the word 'cunt'?
dropping a stone on yr foot's painful - but typing a word?
Mainly because I don't like the word and consider it to be highly offensive. Therefore I don't like typing it in the same way I don't like saying it.
G
Pickman's model
27-01-2005, 14:15
:eek:
Sasaferrato
27-01-2005, 14:16
That's less than half what Pickman's claiming. Do you have a source? Doesn't seem particularly unreasonable, one and a half mill is a mere speck in terms of government funding and it's nice to see money spent on education rather than bombs.
I can give you the phone number of the head teacher, he lives beside my sister in law. My wife will be on Islay week after next, I will get her to confirm the figure.
But when asked what do I think about Welsh appearing on UK Passports.....
I could not give a shit :D
Could have French, Chinese or Klingon inside my passport.
The Home Office previously agreed to allow the language to be used on the first page of passports issued in Wales.
But now Welsh will take its place alongside other EU languages on all passports issued in the UK.Include Welsh for passports issued in Wales, or if requested. Include Scottish, Irish, Cornish, Punjabi and whatever else in this as well. But to include Welsh as the only non-English language for everyone is inconsistent, tokenistic, exclusivist and for most people just plain irrelevant.
GS(v)
Could someone please translate into Welsh:
« Le vrai problème, c'est que les pauvres Anglophones ont peur q'on discute leurs faiblesses et le fragilité de leurs identités. Et ils ont raison. »
:)
I think that's a pretty fair summary of why English people don't like people speaking in other languages. :D
I Personally just think that the language has no real use outside of Wales I can see why it would be easier to learn a third language if you already know two. But would it not be better to teach kids a widespread European language first, and Welsh third? Ability to speak German or Spanish is a damn site more useful imo.So you see no advantage at all in a child growing up in an environment where they learn the thousand-year old language and culture of their home country as well as English?
Or being able to speak to their grandparents in their native tongue?
Welsh isn't some arcane, minor footnote in British history - it's the language of the original Britons and substantially pre-dates English!
Until the English set about trying to destroy the language in the 1850s, the majority of the country spoke the language and it played a living, breathing part in everyday life and culture. Why shouldn't people try to preserve their culture?
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 14:18
Thick cunt. I was a fairly fluent speaker of Gaelic in my youth. Can still follow a conversation, can you?
1.9% of Scots speak Gaelic.
The expenditure is a wonderful " Jobs for the boys " environment, a total and absolute waste of money.
Alas for you, Her Majesty's Scottish Executive disagrees.
Long may you swivel on it, Tory boy.
kyser_soze
27-01-2005, 14:18
Jeez...that £1.5 mil could've been spent teaching Essex and Kent people to speak decent English, not that god awful Estuary effort...:p
Personally I'd like to see Scotland and Wales become competely self governing so they can do what the fuck they want with their languages...
I can give you the phone number of the head teacher, he lives beside my sister in law. My wife will be on Islay week after next, I will get her to confirm the figure.
Why don't you raise it with him yourself then rather than whinging at us about it? I've already pointed out that it's an endowment for setting up a college, not the annual budget.
Include Welsh for passports issued in Wales, or if requested. Include Scottish, Irish, Cornish, Punjabi and whatever else in this as well. But to include Welsh as the only non-English language for everyone is inconsistent, tokenistic, exclusivist and for most people just plain irrelevant.
GS(v)
But who gives a shit what language is used, as long as the passport serves its purposes the text means nothing to me.
WTF Does it say anyway?
Pickman's model
27-01-2005, 14:20
So you see no advantage at all in a child growing up in an environment where they learn the thousand-year old language and culture of their home country as well as English?
i thought welsh was somewhat older than a thousand years.
Sasaferrato
27-01-2005, 14:20
I Personally just think that the language has no real use outside of Wales I can see why it would be easier to learn a third language if you already know two. But would it not be better to teach kids a widespread European language first, and Welsh third? Ability to speak German or Spanish is a damn site more useful imo.
I think there's a difference between holding onto your heritage and being ensuring the survival of it, and using it as a measure of difference. To deliberately alienate the Welsh from the English and vice versa. Both parties are guilty of it.
We don't speak Olde English now, we still fund it at university level, albeit on a smallish scale. All that is required is that a language is kept going, and learning resources are available for those that are interested.
Glasgow has the worst housing stock in Britain, the £8.5m that is spent on gaelic broadcasting would be better spent there.
You can get a Welsh version of Windows XP, by the way!
'Dying language' my fucking arse.
Yossarian
27-01-2005, 14:20
Include Welsh for passports issued in Wales, or if requested. Include Scottish, Irish, Cornish, Punjabi and whatever else in this as well. But to include Welsh as the only non-English language for everyone is inconsistent, tokenistic, exclusivist and for most people just plain irrelevant.
GS(v)
Isn't there Greek, French, German, Irish, Dutch, Danish, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and more on there already? What's the big deal about having another one?
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 14:20
Jeez...that £1.5 mil could've been spent teaching Essex and Kent people to speak decent English, not that god awful Estuary effort...:p
Personally I'd like to see Scotland and Wales become competely self governing so they can do what the fuck they want with their languages...
Hear Hear!
Pickman's model
27-01-2005, 14:21
We don't speak Olde English nowwe drink it! :D :D
General Ludd
27-01-2005, 14:22
i thought welsh was somewhat older than a thousand years.
Depends when you want to start counting:
The earliest extant sources of a language identifiable as Welsh go back to about the 6th century, and the language of this period is known as Early Welsh. Very little of this language remains. The next main period, somewhat better attested, is Old Welsh (9th to 11th centuries); this was the language of the laws of Hywel Dda, as well as some poetry from both Wales and Scotland. As Anglo-Saxon colonisation of Great Britain proceeded, the Celtic-speakers in Wales were split off from those in northern England, speaking Cumbrian, and those in the south-west, speaking what would become Cornish, and so the languages diverged.
Middle Welsh (or Cymraeg Canol) is the label attached to the Welsh of the 12th to 14th centuries, of which much more remains than for any earlier period. This is the language of nearly all surviving early manuscripts of the Mabinogion, although the tales themselves are certainly much older. Middle Welsh is reasonably intelligible, albeit with some work, to a modern-day Welsh speaker.
Modern Welsh can be divided into two periods. The first, Early Modern Welsh ran from the 14th century to roughly the end of the 16th century, and was the language used by Dafydd ap Gwilym. Late Modern Welsh began with the publication of William Morgan's translation of the Bible in 1588. Like its English counterpart, the King James Version, this proved to have a strong stabilising effect on the language, and indeed the language today still bears the same Late Modern label as Morgan's language. Of course, many minor changes have occurred since then.
WTF Does it say anyway?
"Please feel free to laugh at this Sachsen git in your own language" :)
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 14:22
We don't speak Olde English now, we still fund it at university level, albeit on a smallish scale. All that is required is that a language is kept going, and learning resources are available for those that are interested.
Glasgow has the worst housing stock in Britain, the £8.5m that is spent on gaelic broadcasting would be better spent there.
What, hand over £8.5 million to the private company entursted with 'looking after' what was Glasgow's housing, following the backroom deal between Brown and Glasgow cooncil a couple of years back?
Dream on.
Sasaferrato
27-01-2005, 14:23
Why don't you raise it with him yourself then rather than whinging at us about it? I've already pointed out that it's an endowment for setting up a college, not the annual budget.
The annual budget is ( I cannot confirm this, hearsay only ) £11,000.00 per pupil per annum.
I was responding to a halfwit who said that funding for Gaelic is peanuts, it is in excess of £10m a year. Somewhat large peanuts.
We don't speak Olde English now, we still fund it at university level, albeit on a smallish scale. All that is required is that a language is kept going, and learning resources are available for those that are interested.
There's a substantial difference between studying a dead language and providing facilities for study in a living one so that's a rather disengenuous argument.
Glasgow has the worst housing stock in Britain, the £8.5m that is spent on gaelic broadcasting would be better spent there.
We could do bothn if we weren't spending billions blowing up Iraq? Why pick on Gaelic broadcasting? Surely all broadcasting is of less vital importance than housing.
Sasaferrato
27-01-2005, 14:26
What, hand over £8.5 million to the private company entursted with 'looking after' what was Glasgow's housing, following the backroom deal between Brown and Glasgow cooncil a couple of years back?
Dream on.
Yes indeed. A disgrace. Still doesn't justify £8.5m per annum on Gaelic broadcasting though, that works out at £914.00 per Gaelic speaker per annum.
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 14:26
The annual budget is ( I cannot confirm this, hearsay only ) £11,000.00 per pupil per annum.
I was responding to a halfwit who said that funding for Gaelic is peanuts, it is in excess of £10m a year. Somewhat large peanuts.
How much is the annual Scottish executive budget, Sasaferrato?
I'd be grateful if you didn't project yr own personal shortcomings (halfwittery) onto me.
The annual budget is ( I cannot confirm this, hearsay only ) £11,000.00 per pupil per annum.
So about 30% more than average, I don't see aproblem with that in terms of promoting study of a minority subject.
I was responding to a halfwit who said that funding for Gaelic is peanuts, it is in excess of £10m a year. Somewhat large peanuts.
The size of the peanut is only considered of any relevance in proportion to the size of the elephant iyswim.
Yossarian
27-01-2005, 14:27
What's £10m - £2 for everybody in Scotland? Since language is an intrinsic part of culture and national identity, I'm surprised that anybody would begrudge a couple of quid to try and hang onto the remnants of it...
i just noticed how vicious the welsh can be, just check the amount of little sly digs in the pro wales posting
maybe we should just put a big wall up....
So you see no advantage at all in a child growing up in an environment where they learn the thousand-year old language and culture of their home country as well as English?
Culture and language yes, but making it a second langauge can't have much practical value in the realworld outside of Wales, surely?
Welsh isn't some arcane, minor footnote in British history - it's the language of the original Britons and substantially pre-dates English!
Until the English set about trying to destroy the language in the 1850s, the majority of the country spoke the language and it played a living, breathing part in everyday life and culture. Why shouldn't people try to preserve their culture?
Like I said in my post you're replying to I have no objection to people wishing to preserve and indulge in their own culture and heritage, I just object to it being used as a mark of difference - a device used to segregate each other.
Sasaferrato
27-01-2005, 14:28
How much is the annual Scottish executive budget, Sasaferrato?
I'd be grateful if you didn't project yr own personal shortcomings (halfwittery) onto me.
As you will have observed, you were offensive to me first. I always respond.
Projected for 04-05 about 22Bn.
General Ludd
27-01-2005, 14:29
Why pick on Gaelic broadcasting?Because this a thread on minority languages? (The funding doesn't bother me but you're argument here is rubbish and I'm a contrary bastard)
sly digs?!?! wtf :eek:
you're just overtly offensive, wait til ern finishes his lesson :mad:
Sasaferrato
27-01-2005, 14:30
Alas for you, Her Majesty's Scottish Executive disagrees.
Long may you swivel on it, Tory boy.
Fuck off and die Marxist/Leninist/Maoist fuckwit.
Obviously your board name does not reflect you IQ, you should be pimplejack.
i just noticed how vicious the welsh can be, just check the amount of little sly digs in the pro wales posting
maybe we should just put a big wall up....
Fucking right with English fuckwits like yourself mouthing off about things you've no understanding of :rolleyes:
Personally im against passports full-stop.
But if we need them then they should be in Welsh and issued from Cardiff. :D
Whats really interesting in some of the vitriolic responses from some very ill-informed cretins is the obvious deep seated hatred towards the Welsh amongst some English people.
I bet these people imagine themselves as right-on "we are the World" trendies.
But as soon as some uppity Welshman demands his right he gets stamped on.
A lot of English nationalists especially those on the left dont even realise they are nationalists because its subconciously reinforced for them day in day out.
They say things like "i am a free citizen of the World-but fuck me those Welsh bastards are wasting money on lessons for their kids thats going too far!"
Because this a thread on minority languages? (The funding doesn't bother me but you're argument here is rubbish and I'm a contrary bastard)
Where is it rubbish? I'm objecting to the constant whine of reactionaries like Sass about how much money is spent on social projects that they consider of no importance when they're really not comparing like with like.
Culture and language yes, but making it a second langauge can't have much practical value in the realworld outside of Wales, surely?
The real world? Fuck me I must be in the Matrix.
Depends when you want to start counting:
The earliest extant sources of a language identifiable as Welsh go back to about the 6th century, and the language of this period is known as Early Welsh. Very little of this language remains. The next main period, somewhat better attested, is Old Welsh (9th to 11th centuries); this was the language of the laws of Hywel Dda, as well as some poetry from both Wales and Scotland. As Anglo-Saxon colonisation of Great Britain proceeded, the Celtic-speakers in Wales were split off from those in northern England, speaking Cumbrian, and those in the south-west, speaking what would become Cornish, and so the languages diverged
Good post General Ludd, just finished reading it over on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh) myself ;)
Sasaferrato
27-01-2005, 14:34
Where is it rubbish? I'm objecting to the constant whine of reactionaries like Sass about how much money is spent on social projects that they consider of no importance when they're really not comparing like with like.
Eh? Wasted money is wasted money.
There is no point whatsoever in educating children solely in Gaelic.
I don't expect you to pay for my hobbies, why should we pay for theirs?
Karac Personally im against passports full-stop.
But if we need them then they should be in Welsh and issued from Cardiff.
Whats really interesting in some of the vitriolic responses from some very ill-informed cretins is the
obvious deep seated hatred towards the Welsh amongst some English people.
I bet these people imagine themselves as right-on "we are the World" trendies.
But as soon as some uppity Welshman demands his right he gets stamped on.
A lot of English nationalists especially those on the left dont even realise they are nationalists because its subconciously reinforced for them
day in day out.
They say things like "i am a free citizen of the World-but fuck me those Welsh bastards are wasting money on lessons for their kids thats going too far!"
applause and thanks
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 14:35
As you will have observed, you were offensive to me first. I always respond.
Projected for 04-05 about 22Bn.
Let's do a sum then....£10 million from £22 billion? As a percentage of govt. spending?
CHICKENFEED.
Yet, apparently, all our fiscal problems will be solved if we let Gaelic die by itself.
Honestly! The 'entertainment' budget for the Scottish parliament will dwarf the budget for Gaelic. The executive is already projecting £650 m efficiency savings by 2007-8 (though given labour's fondness for Enron accounting that remains to be seen).
I was offensive to you as the notion that we should just let galeic die is profundly and deeply offensive to me. It's cultural vanadlaism akin to building a Tesco's on the site of a levelled Arbroath Abbey, or dynamiting Edinburgh Castle and replacing it with a private helicopter pad for Jack McConnell.
Yossarian
27-01-2005, 14:36
is the obvious deep seated hatred towards the Welsh amongst some English people.
'Deep-seated hatred'? I've heard people take the piss out of the Welsh a bit but I've never heard anything genuinely hateful. I don't think the majority of people in England really give a fuck one way or another.
kyser_soze
27-01-2005, 14:37
'Deep-seated hatred'? I've heard people take the piss out of the Welsh a bit but I've never heard anything genuinely hateful. I don't think the majority of people in England really give a fuck one way or another.
Possibly even more insulting - indifference in the face of Welsh Nationalism
'We want to speak our native language and you can't stop us!!!'
'Yeah, whatever'
Whats really interesting in some of the vitriolic responses from some very ill-informed cretins is the obvious deep seated hatred towards the Welsh amongst some English people.Yep. I'm picking up that loud and clear.
The level of ignorance displayed by some people in this thread is both astonishing and depressing.
Whats really interesting in some of the vitriolic responses from some very ill-informed cretins is the obvious deep seated hatred towards the Welsh amongst some English people.
It is curious isn't it.
And what makes it so fascinating is that it is all one way traffic.
You just don't see any obvious deep seated hatred towards the English amongst some Welsh people, do you?
Bizarre!
And I am from Mars.
tarannau
27-01-2005, 14:37
Include Welsh for passports issued in Wales, or if requested. Include Scottish, Irish, Cornish, Punjabi and whatever else in this as well. But to include Welsh as the only non-English language for everyone is inconsistent, tokenistic, exclusivist and for most people just plain irrelevant.
GS(v)
I't's not really a problem though is it. Despite my knuckle-dragging Sarf London roots, I still get a bilingual cheque book as a legacy of living a few years in Wales and having an outwardly Taff-friendly name.
All it adds up to are a few extra words and the branding legend that is 'Banc Lloyds Bank' Hardly the end of the world is it...
Sasaferrato
27-01-2005, 14:38
Personally im against passports full-stop.
But if we need them then they should be in Welsh and issued from Cardiff. :D
Whats really interesting in some of the vitriolic responses from some very ill-informed cretins is the obvious deep seated hatred towards the Welsh amongst some English people.
I bet these people imagine themselves as right-on "we are the World" trendies.
But as soon as some uppity Welshman demands his right he gets stamped on.
A lot of English nationalists especially those on the left dont even realise they are nationalists because its subconciously reinforced for them day in day out.
They say things like "i am a free citizen of the World-but fuck me those Welsh bastards are wasting money on lessons for their kids thats going too far!"
Education for its own sake is fine, I have no problem with that, however, to educate children in languages that are understood in two minute parts of the country, ( population not geographical size ), is ludicrous.
steeplejack
27-01-2005, 14:38
Fuck off and die Marxist/Leninist/Maoist fuckwit.
Obviously your board name does not reflect you IQ, you should be pimplejack.
Watch out Sass, you'll get your beef windsor all down the front of your shirt.
Also, I'm a 'none of the above' in your little gallery of political caricatures I'm afraid. There's no need to reinforce your status as a 'halfwit'.
:D :D :rolleyes:
Personally im against passports full-stop.
But if we need them then they should be in Welsh and issued from Cardiff. :D
Whats really interesting in some of the vitriolic responses from some very ill-informed cretins is the obvious deep seated hatred towards the Welsh amongst some English people.
I bet these people imagine themselves as right-on "we are the World" trendies.
But as soon as some uppity Welshman demands his right he gets stamped on.
A lot of English nationalists especially those on the left dont even realise they are nationalists because its subconciously reinforced for them day in day out.
They say things like "i am a free citizen of the World-but fuck me those Welsh bastards are wasting money on lessons for their kids thats going too far!"
Spot on Brawd! After 20 years in England I'm still astonished by the hysterical reaction of many Saes to any mention Welsh culture or the Welsh nation. Something to do with 'having lost an Empire and not yet found a role' I think.
'Deep-seated hatred'? I've heard people take the piss out of the Welsh a bit but I've never heard anything genuinely hateful. Take a look through this thread for some examples.
I'd say dismissing a thousand year old culture as 'irrelevent' is pretty insulting myself.
General Ludd
27-01-2005, 14:39
Where is it rubbish? I'm objecting to the constant whine of reactionaries like Sass about how much money is spent on social projects that they consider of no importance when they're really not comparing like with like.
Constant whine? As far as I know Sas has only complained about it on this thread which is precisely on minority languages so it seems a bit bizarre to accuse him of 'picking on Gaelic broadcasting' - it'd be stupid and off-topic for him to complain about any other form of funding on this thread. There are lots of arguments for funding of Gaelic broadcasting but 'the amount of money isn't really that big so you shouldn't be bothered one way or the other' isn't one of them.
goldenecitrone
27-01-2005, 14:39
Personally, I don't see what all the fuss is about. She can appear in my passport any day of the week.
http://www.zxcproductions.com/web/RW/rw_pic_010.jpg
'Deep-seated hatred'? I've heard people take the piss out of the Welsh a bit but I've never heard anything genuinely hateful. I don't think the majority of people in England really give a fuck one way or another.
Yeah thats why i said "some".
Education for its own sake is fine, I have no problem with that, however, to educate children in languages that are understood in two minute parts of the country, is ludicrous.Regardless of the clear advantages to the child (that I've patiently listed previously)?!
So why's that then?
excess of £10m a year. Somewhat large peanuts.
And it'll buy you about the front two metres of one Eurofighter.
Eh? Wasted money is wasted money.
That's not true. Money spent doing something that's a bit worthwhile is less wasted than money that's spent doing something not at all worthwhile.
There is no point whatsoever in educating children solely in Gaelic.
Well, I'm sure they're not being isolated from the English language entuirely and there are huge advantages to bilingual education (see mine and editor's posts above.
I don't expect you to pay for my hobbies, why should we pay for theirs?
Damn right, let's withdraw all government funding for sport, music and any cultural activities that don't provide immediate economic advantages immediately. And let's spend the moeny on more bombs.
Load of Anti-English rascism on these boards.. dates back to.. ho-hum.. 2002.
'Deep-seated hatred'? I've heard people take the piss out of the Welsh a bit but I've never heard anything genuinely hateful. I don't think the majority of people in England really give a fuck one way or another.
Would you feel the same way about people taking the piss out of Jews or Asians or the Irish?
Constant whine? As far as I know Sas has only complained about it on this thread which is precisely on minority languages so it seems a bit bizarre to accuse him of 'picking on Gaelic broadcasting' - it'd be stupid and off-topic for him to complain about any other form of funding on this thread. There are lots of arguments for funding of Gaelic broadcasting but 'the amount of money isn't really that big so you shouldn't be bothered one way or the other' isn't one of them.
Without derailing the thread this is certainly not the first time Sass has complained about govern