Discussion in 'transport' started by cybertect, Sep 17, 2009.
Have to disagree with that, the road sense of many cyclists in London is shockingly bad.
hahahaha! no, sigmund fraud's never been on a bike
I meant mr. petrolhead Firestone.
The last fatality in Bristol was an elderly man. I also know of another man who was killed cycling down Park Street.
As you say Upchuck they may well be 'trained and professional and serious about their jobs...'
Despite this I still regularly get overtaken by lorries that are
far too close
pull in before they have fully got past me
overtake just before a junction
I've never felt my life at risk from another cyclist - but on several occasions I have from HGV's.
In my experience, truck drivers in the UK are much worse than other northern European countries. It's a regular thing to see truck drivers speeding on motorways here, driving side by side for miles, failing to give way when turning corners, etc. Rare to see any of these things in northern Europe.
Of course you have! They are much bigger than you. If I were an HGV driver I'd been really offended that it is implied time and again I am bad at my job and killing cyclists. I think it's a crock. Cyclists, as I said, need no training and licensing to get on the roads. HGV's and motorised vehicles belnong on the roads. Cyclists are merely guests. Y'all'd do well to remember that.
Obeying red lights on a bike does not place you in danger, unless you wait on the inside of traffic. Wait behind the traffic and you're fine.
*Gets the deckchair out*
I have to confess that I'm starting to think maybe cyclists really ought to be tested and plated - though the problems I witness daily are on a mixed-use path, not the roads.
Therein lies the problem
This might have something to do with the need for licensing and training then!
Regardless of if you were to be offended or not HGV's kill a lot of cyclists. The problem also seems to be particular to this country.
A far more effective way to make the roads safer would be to make all drivers who are able, and HGV drivers receive cycle training.
Cyclists and pedestrians don't need a license to use the roads, the guests are those who need licences to use them.
Okay then, you get a stack of freight, strap it to your back, and deliver it round London. Strap a concrete mixer to your handlebars and see how far you get.
Despite recognising some of what you said...i.e. I think its' certainly wrong to brand most HGV drivers as reckless or even criminals who actively TRY to injure cyclists...what you have written above is complete nonsense cyclists are no more guests on the road than a lorry or a car. Lorrys and cars pay tax to use the road becuase of the damage they do to it and the environment in general and because most of the amentity placed on the road - i.e. most fo the markings, junctions, lights etc which require building and maintaining are there for the benefit of the motorist...not the cyclist. Just because a motorist pays tax does not mean that they have anymore right to use the road than anyone else.
True that concreate mixers are difficult to replace efficiently, but freight could be moved just as efficiently by bicycle as currently by truck, if emissions, deaths, and noise are accounted for.
Ignoring the obvious trolling about who owns the roads, public space in a city is the property of the residents who live there. We need freight, we need an efficient transport system, but the first priority is that it is safe.
The Vision Zero policy in Sweden seems to me to be a sensible premise to begin from...
"Vision Zero states that the loss of human life and health is unacceptable and therefore the road transport system should be designed in a way that such events do not occur. This means that safety is a more important area than other issues in the road transport system (except for health-related environmental issues). Mobility therefore should follow from safety and cannot be obtained at the expense of safety."
The practical applications of the policy are extensive, and in general terms 20mph limits in cities are a standard starting point.
For freight, where vehcile size means that even slow speeds can be fatal, it requires careful consideration over routes, timings, freight consoldation centres, driver training, vehicle technology and size etc.
No it couldn't.
To suggest that freight could be moved by bicycle is so unutterably ridiculous to defy belief.
Modern western society is built around a distribution pattern based on the truck.
Think for one minute of the contents of a 40 tonne truck arriving at a Tesco store. It will be carrying everything from 50" televisions that take two men to lift them to time sensitive fresh produce.
Are we really going to transport those by bicycle? Actually... that's not ridiculous, it's positively moronic.
In terms of pollution I wouldn't be at all surprised if the amount of CO2 produced by a truck per tonne carried per mile travelled is substantially less than that produced by a cyclist.
As for your suggestion that there is some pressing need for driver training to cut down on deaths I suggest you actually speak to a few truck drivers and then maybe you'll realise just now safety concious the vast majority of them are and how seriously they take the welfare of other road users.
All through an HGV licence course you are reminded constantly that your over-riding responsibility is to the welfare of other road users. There's no leeway in an HGV test for 'minor' mistakes. You fuck up once no matter how slightly and you fail. When I took my test the first time pass rate was around 14% and the second and third time rate was even worse (or better depending on your point of view). This is recognition of the serious responsibility you take on when you get behind the wheel of such a potentially destructive thing as a 55' long 44 tonne 400hp vehicle.
I have an HGV licence and I don't need lessons on safety from a sandal wearing muesli-mucher particularly not one who thinks a distribution model based on the bicycle is anything other than laughably idiotic pie-in-the-sky nonsense.
I tell you what...
You give me the details of the transportation from point of manufacture or import to the front door of the consumer for the following items based largely on the bicycle and excluding the use of trucks at all points of the distribution chain...
2) Petrol and Diesel
4) Washing machines
5) Dog food
7) Letters and parcels
10) Just about everything else.
Well in Paris they take the problem a bit more seriously than here and only allow vans into the centre unless exceptional circumstances.
I should hope there is no leeway for minor mistakes, but perhaps re-tests are in order as I've said before that I felt my life to be at risk more than once from irresponsible driving from HGV's. Don't get me wrong, most of the time there is absolutely no problem and many cyclists put them selves at risk. But the number of deaths signal to me that there is a pressing problem - that I think is particular to the UK and not in many other European countries.
There are a fair few cyclists who would do well to observe the highway code. Running red lights, undertaking etc will put not only the cyclist but other road users in danger. In London this is an ever increasing problem as more people are encouraged to 'get on their bike'.... in many cases this will be the first time they have used a cycle since they were children.
FFS, how many Pashley riding, ipod wearing nincompoops, shooting lights and pedestrian crossings, do I have to look at whilst I cycle to work within the rules
It is easy to blame motorised traffic for cycle accidents, and some motorised vehicle drivers do have poor driving skills, but this , I believe, is now counterbalanced by an equal number of ignorant 'I ride a bike so I'm holier than you' cyclists who have little or no regard for basic traffic regulations and good practice.
The number of deaths actually caused by HGVs being?
If my experience is anything to go by there is a substantial number of people from pedestrians to car drivers who seem to have death wish.
I've lost count of the number of people who have tried to pass me on the inside when I've been making a turn including one fuckwit in a Porche who tried to overtake me when I was negotiating a roundabout with an abnormal load.
I was in London on Tuesday and bimbling around the West End I saw plenty of twats riding bikes on the path and generally acting like cunts. Some of their manoeuvres would've earned them a smack in the chops in Hull
A quick search reveals...
* Eight cyclists have died, directly as a result of a collision with
a lorry, on London streets alone this year (so far...) More in
* The majority of them were women.
* The majority, if not all, were experienced, fit, strong, law
I hear what you are saying - there are a lot of idiots. I recon if you cycled regularly you'll also understand my point view.
Still doesn't mean HGV's caused the accidents. IMO if you are cutting up the inside or riding next to an HGV you're just asking for trouble. Cyclists need to use their heads. Blaming HGV drivers, which is effectively what folk are doing, for the accidents is bloody disgraceful.
It won't and there is a genuine problem with dumbass HGV drivers too. But if you think cycling through a city on a main road without a helmet is a sensible approach to cycling then I despair.
Oh and I cycle to work 2-3 times a week to whoever now owes me a fiver
Now you say "The majority, if not all, were experienced, fit, strong, law abiding cyclists". Do you have any evidence for that or is that just an assumption? Isn't it possible that in a large if not majority of cases there is some form of Darwinism at work?
Undoubtedly there will be deaths caused as a result of truck drivers doing things they shouldn't be doing or not doing things they should've been but beyond a personal tragedy level is that a good reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater?
There's an argument for banning large trucks from city centres during rush-hour or even throughout the day but that leads to two problems... A substantially increased number of small vans which are often driven by less skilled drivers frequently on impossible schedules which encourage reckless driving and the problem of increased noise at night.
Something very few non truck drivers are aware of is the fact that as a condition of planning permission many commercial and retail developments are subject to restrictions on the hours during which they will accept delivery. The Tesco up the road from me for instance will not accept deliveries between the hours of 8pm and 8am.
Also as a consequence of planning and operators licence conditions many haulage firms have restricted operating hours.
Banning or restricting the use of trucks in towns sounds fine on the face of it until you look at the unintended consequences.
how the hell do we know they were law abiding? the vast majority of cyclists jump red lights, to varying degrees. some sit there for a while to check its safe first, others come flying through. it happens so much im supprised when i pull up at lights and there is a fellow cyclist sat at a red, and it makes me feel guilty when i crawl thru, so i often dont
You'd do well to remember that the roads were initially built for pedestrians, horses and carts. Motorised vehicles are guests just as much as cyclists. It's just that most bastards think being in control of a large mass of metal gives them the right to do what the fuck they like and bully into submission anyone who objects.
Get with the times old man! The roads are for traffic. Cyslists are there by choice and mix with the traffic. Slandering HGV drivers for 'killing' cyclists is my main gripe on this thread. Most cyclists kill themselves by making foolish, reckless manouvres, or being inexperienced when it comes to reading the roads and traffic on it.
Separate names with a comma.