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SWP Expel leading members in Respect

Discussion in 'UK politics, current affairs and news' started by Fisher_Gate, Oct 14, 2007.

  1. barney_pig

    barney_pig Po-cha-na-quar-hip

    crick report on newsnight at long last the much awaited galloway public attack on the swp,,, but what is this? no galloway?? no instead there is some goateed trot "crossing the class line and taking our movements arguments into the bourgeoius press"
  2. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    **sorry, missed the posts above the one above**
  3. barney_pig

    barney_pig Po-cha-na-quar-hip

    just remebering the reaction from some on here when fisher was interviewed by crick a short while ago. I wonder If these same people will be condemning rees.
  4. barney_pig

    barney_pig Po-cha-na-quar-hip

    (((butchers)))
  5. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Give us a kiss barney
  6. JimPage

    JimPage New Member

    Well, todays the day. May sanity reign at all of the events- may people take stock of the train crash of the last few weeks and come to their senses.
  7. Das Uberdog

    Das Uberdog remembers the alamo

    Err, I know it's no use trying to get you to comprehend simple discussion, but for all those who may have had their perception of this argument skewed by your irrelevant comments, Fisher_Gate actually accused us beforehand of not recruiting from the LABOUR MOVEMENT, which I (rather brilliantly I might add) claimed was overwhelmingly over 40 and emotionally tied up in Labour and post-Soviet Union politics. This you simply deny - which I again will use as evidence you have zero experience with the 'Labour Movement' today.

    And as for why the SWP isn't recruiting hundreds of thousands of millions of radicalised workers, well - are you seriously stupid enough not to come up with your own reasons (apart from your non-arguments about the SWP only appealing to students) - like the general demise of the Labour movement and the collapse of Socialism as a mainstream ideology amongst the working classes? Of course you are. Douchebag, anyone?

    And no-one's fucking told me why it's so fucking bad to be recruiting students either? I'm guessing it's just because you're all anti-Enlightenment Proley populists. Fair do's - just don't try and pass yourselves off as serious Marxists in future. Marxism isn't just about recruiting workers at all costs: There's nothing at all anti-academic about Marxism - how many worker's were there in the original Bolshevik minority faction? The point of the vanguard is to be there when things do start to happen.

    In all, there is currently no serious revolutionary current to speak of running through any vein of British society - be it in popular culture, working class organisation, youth sub-cultures or anything else you'd like to name. Why on earth would anybody be recruiting millions of worker's in this period? Are they? If not, how come the SWP is getting Flak for being successful in recruiting at least a certain section of society? Oh yeah, it's because you're all wankers. Sorry, I forget who I'm talking to sometimes.
  8. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    And the LABOUR MOVEMENT is not full of stalinists and USSR supporters. Don't be so daft. And don't now try and smuggle in 'labour supporting' now that you've realised just how daft your original characterisation was. Even this attempt at a get-out only helps to show how poor your performance is though - an initiative aimed specifically at people who have traditionally supported labour but might now be open to a more broad-left perspective has recruited no one from this 'layer' - and this in the model ward.

    The only people that you've recruited are students - that's what your 'brutally' honest post says. It actually says a lot more then that, but you're unable to see it or too tied up in desperate defensive group-thought to see that right now or entertain the failings that this highlights but which are transparently clear to everyrone else.

    Your argument as to why you've been unable to recruit a single person aside from a handlful of students is not really up to much, and directly contradicts the CC's version of events in what they argue is a model ward, a beacon to the left, an example of how well we all could do if only we adopted the same approach. 6 students. Brilliant. No ones asked you to recruit millions. One maybe. As a start like.

    I'll not mention the perspective that the SWP adopted in their arguments for building RESPECT - a unique historic opportunity to break the w/c from Labour blah blah - all now overturned and morphed into - 'of course we can't recruit or retain anyone, it would be madness to think that we could'. Marvelous stuff.

    And how desperate you must be to play this state of affairs, a state of affairs that you've made, as an anti-student position. The idiocy of arguinhg that any criticism of a model ward that can only recruit students is anti-student witchunting - great stuff. Absolute nonsense, but it does show that you're prepared to ape the CC during this troubling period. Hope you enjoy the next few months internal HUAC sessions.
  9. Fisher_Gate

    Fisher_Gate Well-Known Member

    On seeing misinformed outbursts like this, I recommend reaching for the classics. Try this one for measure:
    http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1910/xx/intell.htm
    (remember though when it was written "Social Democracy" meant revolutionary marxism).

    Even the mistaken notion of student "red bases" in the sixties was better than this load of apolitical drivel.
  10. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Oh yeah, forgot to say Death to the Aufklarung!
  11. Das Uberdog

    Das Uberdog remembers the alamo

    What the fuck would you refer to as the 'Labour Movement' today butch-boy? Where the fuck is it? What are your suggestions as to how we 'recruit from it'? Go get fucked; what my post actually says is that we actually do have one new non-student member, if you read it properly - but as far as I'm concerned that's irrelevant to the extreme. What the fuck makes having 'some workers' in the party so fantastically brilliant? Fuck all, if they're shit!

    As for smartarse; well done on returning to your general bullshitting tactic - when you can't beat 'em, patronise 'em! I'll have you know I've already read the pamphlet you referred to, and probably more than you have done yourself. I'll also point out how ludicrously irrelevant it is, and how blatantly obvious it is you've picked it out simply because it addresses a parralel issue to the one we're discussing; where did I say the socialist movement should rely upon the 'intelligentsia' and not the workers? Am I saying that the focus of the revolutionary party should be to win the intelligentsia to socialism? No! I'm not! And your pathetic excuse for an argument is rather embarrassing for anyone who has the patience to take it to pieces and analyse it properly. What I've actually said is that there is nothing un-academic about Marxism, that if we're to take the example of the Bolshevik faction in Russia the founding aim wasn't simply to create a party which was more popular with the workers, it was to create a party which was actually striving towards socialism proper. Indeed, in Trotsky's pamphlet you linked to, Trotsky says nothing about the negative effects of having a student-based organisation or movement (though they are negative) but talks completely of the practical class-based issues which prevent such a movement from being. Retard. Go grow a brain and learn to distinguish between recognising familiar words in text and analysing their meaning, then perhaps you'll be able to link your argument into 'smarter people than yourself's' work accurately.
  12. urbanrevolt

    urbanrevolt New Member

    I don't think there's anything to be gained from general insult-'go get fucked!', 'your pathetic excuse', 'go grow a brain,' etc.

    However, if das uberdog is claiming that the labour movement is extremely weak s/he's got a point- however, it is not accurate to say there is no labour movement worth relating to at all. There is an extremly fragile and weak labour movement- for example trades councils or rank and file initiatives- it is not entirely true to say they're all old- or past it. It is true to say they are very small- Bolton gets between 10 and 20- mainly in forties and fifteis some like mysefl in 30s. Similar in Manchester. A recent rank and file teachers meeting had about 20 people at it- still mainly over 30 but a couple younger.

    It is an extremly fragile base from which to build but it is still very important to nurture these networks, relate them to emerging and important struggles such as the mental health workers' strike and not necessarily see them as only useful for recruiting. It is essential work to begin to rebuild the working class organisation and capacity to fight. None of this is counterposed to recruiting younger people- both to united front struggles and to political organisations- in workplaces, colleges, universities. However, it is fairly key to at least attempt to have an implantation amongst th eorganised working class however much we recognise the need to rebuild rank and file networks of militants.
  13. durruti02

    durruti02 love and rage!

    while i do not entirely disagree with what you say, :D is not maybe the problem the alienated way of differrentiating between party and class and between cadre and non cadre and particularly also of recruiting to a programme instead of trying to create networks based on a whole series of issues instead of those that dogma decrees? ( sorry off topic ) :)
  14. barney_pig

    barney_pig Po-cha-na-quar-hip

    have you ever considered shutting yer mouth and giving your arse a chance?
  15. cutandsplice

    cutandsplice putting things together

    Probably not.
  16. ResistanceMP3

    ResistanceMP3 www.ResistanceMP3.org.uk

    that was a long post Butch
  17. Das Uberdog

    Das Uberdog remembers the alamo

    I'm not sure what that means - I don't talk out of my arse? I mean, I know I don't - but for God's sake get your insults straight man!
  18. treelover

    treelover For the 'Good Old Cause'

    don't usually use silly words like this, but DU comprehensively Pwned by BA:D
  19. Das Uberdog

    Das Uberdog remembers the alamo

    Let's break this down into manageable chunks, treeluvva.

    The only point of contention here is over whether or not the 'Labour Movement' is dominated by post-Stalinists and Old Labourites. The 'Labour Movement' has yet to be defined;- butchers claims that it isn't dominated by said bunch, I've said it is. You're free to have an opinion on this but it's hardly pwnage material.

    This dispute came from the point that butchers made, that it is horrendously bad for a Revvo Party not to be recruiting the 'Leaders' of the 'Labour Movement (as yet undefined) left, right and centre. I argued against this, and Fisher_Gate frankly embarrassed himself with his poor use of Trotsky in an attempt to claim that there was something innately unrevolutionary about a Party which recruited from the 'intelligentsia'.

    Now I'm sorry to have to humiliate you publically by trying to extend your obviously linear understanding of this discussion, but it would appear that the major point of contention is still an issue and yet to be resolved! I know, I know - you were going to side with butchers whatever the hell happened. I mean, I am in the SWP after all! But tbh, in future I think you should remain quiet about your views in future... I mean, unless you've fully thought them through. It's... embarassing for me to have to do this.
  20. cockneyrebel

    cockneyrebel New Member

    It is. But probably not for the reasons you're thinking.
  21. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    And this where the essential dishonesty of hooverbag kicks in again. I didn't mention 'leaders', i didn't specify leaders, I, in fact, said the exact opposite - normal members, not 'leaders'. And how many have you managed to get? None. In the model ward. None. Great stuff. I wonder why, when you see the above series of posts.
  22. Timbo

    Timbo New Member

    Ok I've been reading this thread since it started with a mixture of bemusement and interest since it started.

    Just one question for any SWP members really. What lessons have the SWP learnt from this saga? Will they re evaluate at the way they operate or organise as a result of all this? Or it will be a case as business as usual?
  23. Das Uberdog

    Das Uberdog remembers the alamo

    Well, Ok - 'active people' then. Argument still stands.
  24. ResistanceMP3

    ResistanceMP3 www.ResistanceMP3.org.uk

    what do u think they should learn?
  25. KeyboardJockey

    KeyboardJockey Clowns to the Left of me

    I've been following this thread and if it wasn't so sad that the main left organisations and their supporters are splitting like amoeba and turning more against each other it would be pure comedy. All this whilst the bnp can afford the finances and the manpower to put up 800 odd council candidates and have 50 councilors.

    While ordinary people have their livelihoods taken away from them by outsourcing and cheap labour and removal and privatisation of serivces the main left orgs continue to indulge in pointless intellectual wanking of the worst kind.

    If we end up with more fash as councillors or as MP's the blame would have to be shared by the mainstream polticians and thei business chums who benefit from cheap labour and outsourcing and the disgusting activities of what passes for the left in this country.

    There is now NO genunie grass roots left (in the broadest sense) active in this country it is all intellectuall wanking that has no relevance to the man on the street. No wonder people vote bnp as at least they are giving the appearance of being on their side.

    I don't think you could have a cable street style confrontation now as the backing in terms of those prepared to put themselves in the fireing line wouldn't be there. Sadly a modern day Mosley would have much more support than in the past.
  26. urbanrevolt

    urbanrevolt New Member

    It may be part of the problem. (And btw I don't think this is nearly as off topic as most of the recent contributions :) )

    We should create networks of militants over a whole series of issues- repsonding to working class needs as much as looking for issues- though I also think some issues are definitely worth fighting over- issues around freedom, equality, the right to organise etc. We should also definitely be for creating links and networks between the issues- e.g. rank and file networoks in and across the unions to take up all sorts of issues not just job related ones- e.g. strikes over pay and conditins yes but also international solidarity, homophobia, racism.

    In other word, I agree we should respond to stuggles but also I think should take up issues according to our beliefs about what's right (what you might call 'dogma' but I think if socialists are open to discussion, genuinely open minded and prepared to listen as well then it's not dogma)

    Also there's nothing worng with trying to recruit to a revolutinary organisation/ group/ party but it should be seen as in addition to all the other activities. In other words may be broach the subject on the lines we have a meeting about this we're socialists and if people ge tinto serious discussions mya be suggest why not become a member or supporter or write for us- but not to be obsessvie about it or undertake work to recruit (that's what puts a lot of people off th eleft and the SWP in particular I think and the way sometimes they can try to run campaigns for themselves- keeping contact lists etc- not always but I've known it more than once). The party/ revolutoinary organisation should be a resource for th movement of working class emancipation not the other way round.

    Keyboard jockey- I sympathise. There are some prepared to put temselves in the firing line and that is necessary though much of the left including the SWP are quite mabivalen on no platform. We also need though to get stuck into local campigns, build a working class base, be serious about politics and serious about confronting racist and facsit thugs like the bNP and the populist racism of the tabloids and the government from which they thrive.
  27. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    How about a revluation of the relationship between the CC and orodinary members for starters? Any lessons you think can be learnt from this fiasco? Surely there must be something?
  28. Timbo

    Timbo New Member


    Ok.... seeing as you asked.

    How about resisting in future the temptation to exagerate trends and membership figures? As many others have commented no one really believes the claimed figure of nearly 6000 members. Why are the membership so wildly exagerated - what purpose does it serve other than to give a false picture of the level of support the SWP has? As it begs the question , if they cant be relied on to give a truthful estimation of their membership what else are they fibbing or exagerating about?

    I think people would not be critical of the SWP, if Respect project had not been so hyped up in the first place. Its only a very short while that socialist Worker was making out that Respect had the potential to be a serious opposition around which the left could rally. Now to a casual observer that now looks open to question , to put it mildly. Maybe the SWP still thinks that is the case however. In which case as I asked earlier is it still a case of business as usual?

    Maybe the SWP could also try to learn that there is no short cut. My personal opinion is that the SWP saw Respect as an opportunity to get recruits on the back of the Iraq war protests, and therefore were more than happy to compromise on a number of areas as an acceptable price to pay for this. When this didnt happen (as it rarely does) , tensions rose in the SWP, which helped to lead to the current spilt in Respect.

    Finally they could try and learn to work with what remains of the left in an open and pluralistic manner. Which means taking a long hard look at their organisational practices.

    As others have said this whole episode would be funny were it not the fact that the longer the left cant get together and quarrel, all the while ordinary people who are disillusioned with new labour, and who are instinctively on the left have no political home to go, and public spilits like this just repel the majority of people. meanwhile the popular belief that currently the left couldnt agree on what to have for breakfast (to quote Zeppo in another thread) continue to be held by most people.
  29. urbanrevolt

    urbanrevolt New Member

    I definitely think Timbo is right there are no short cuts and that we should work together in an open, democratic manner agreeing where we can and not forcing premature agreement where we can't but uniting in action.

    By the way, I'm never quite sure what 'pluralistic' means. I presume you mean relate to people from a wide range of points of view- recognising that we disagree on some things and can work together on others. I agree with that but I think we should also be open about our political differences- not as a barrier to joint work but neither papering over the divisions and pretending they don't exist.
  30. treelover

    treelover For the 'Good Old Cause'

    Do you really believe that, KJ?
    I get your point about Cable Street though, the numbers certainly wouldn't be the same.


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