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Sectarianism in Scotland

Discussion in 'Scotland/Alba' started by inflatable jesus, Jul 19, 2005.

  1. inflatable jesus

    inflatable jesus I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders

    The faith-schools thread on the general forum has got me to thinking recently about the issue of Sectarianism in Scotland. It's been over six months since Jack McConnell 'cracked down' on Sectarianism and held his wee summit with all the relevant bigots in charge of the bigotry.

    Now, as far as I can see (and I'm perfectly willing to be corrected) absolutely hee-haw has happenned as a result of that meeting. The Daily Record blamed it on Catholic schools, The catholics came up with some catchy wee soundbite about not teaching bigotry on the syllabus and everything just seemed to continue as before.

    So what I'm wondering is this:

    1) In your opinion, what's it going to take to stop catholics and protestants in this country to stop kicking the shit out of each other (and doing much worse) on a regular basis?

    2) Are faith schools the reason why Sectarianism is so prevalent?

    3) What are your experiences of it?

    4) Why is this a typically Scottish (and Northern Irish) problem?

    5) Who's going to win the SPL this year?
  2. Chorlton

    Chorlton CEO of Stupid

    do you mind if i have a stab at answering even though i am not scottish?

    tough.shit.jocko!

    1) Start by banning parades - i don't care about civil liberties - ban orange parades, ban republican parades, forget this bullshit about community groups and the like, just ban them fullstop.

    2) Of course not, no more so than the existance of two football clubs in glasgow is. It is however a scapegoat used by those that wish to attack catholiscm IMO. That said - i would abolish them as well.

    3) wee lad down the road from me called me a fenian fucker when i was was wee cause i thought wee joe miller was better than sally mccoist

    4) while not completely true sadly it is beginning to look that way

    5) Hibs
  3. flimsier

    flimsier Banned Banned

    Chorlton in first. Fuck me that's a surprise!
  4. cathal marcs

    cathal marcs Is it wicked not to care?

    1) In your opinion, what's it going to take to stop catholics and protestants in this country to stop kicking the shit out of each other (and doing much worse) on a regular basis?

    Education of what sectarianism is maybe. A question that is impossible to answer fully I think. Maybe a discussion into what sectarianism is. And a history that the establishment in Scotland maybe embaressed by but dnt want to admit such as mass discrimination and pogroms by the Church of Scotland i.e. "The menace of the Irish Race to our Scottish Nationality." "It accused the Irish Roman Catholic population of taking employment from native Scots, of being part of a papist conspiracy to subvert Presbyterian values, and of being the principal cause of drunkenness, crime and financial, imprudence," It isn't just both sides are as bad as each ther crap that the Daily record or the Sunday world spouts or that Celtic and Rangers are the root Evil of society all they do is moirror the society they were born into.

    How it has been used to divide and rule the working class. Many of the big industrialists just hapened to be the top dogs in industry also. So it led to a loyal class of workers who percieved they were getting something better than the taigs when in reality they were getting a shite job too scared to bagain for better wages as they may upset their Grandmaster not just their boss and should gratefully take their position in society of having a house with an outside toilet in Bridgeton and singinging praises to the glorious monarch.

    Thirdly what is sectarian. I would say the problems in ireland is that Britain is occupying it through an artificially created state that was imposed on the Irish people. Give full Economic, Political and Social rights to all and the need for unionism as an ideology to maintain nequalities will die down. Show that the Proestants for centuries have been taken for a ride by their fur coat unionist leaders and that their percieved better lace in society is a myth,(ever been on the shankhill).


    2) Are faith schools the reason why Sectarianism is so prevalent?

    No. They are found all over the world for god sake why are they an ssue in Scotland. Maybe adding salt to existing wounds? Dont agree wth them myself think Hoxha and Dderot ad the right idea :D

    3) What are your experiences of it?

    Dont want to discuss. its a personal question.

    4) Why is this a typically Scottish (and Northern Irish) problem?

    Is it. Is their not alternaties of it elsewhere. Netherlands and belgium. Catalonia, Basque Country against the Spanish state. Or in a more violent scale the former Yugoslavia.

    5) Who's going to win the SPL this year?

    Dunno its not sarted yet and I aint a fortune teller sadly.
  5. Ich bin ein Mod

    Ich bin ein Mod does his make up in his room

    Banning parades must be the first step. For how can any attempt to root out bigotry be successful when every summer these marches of hate are allowed to disrupt cities and towns. Loud noises and bright colours, is it any wonder the wee kids that are dragged along to these parades by their scum parents become indoctrinated?

    Again, whilst Catholic schools are not to blame, it does allow the Catholic Church a dispropotionate influence on Scottish society. Personally I'd like to see schools and religion completely seperate, perhaps phased in by having shared campuses (and not setting up artificial divides such as banning pupils from the two schools talking to each other)

    Not loads, but enough. Being beaten up at school for being a "micky tim bastard" by half the class one break with no action being taken is about the extent. Apart from not being allowed to wear my Celtic top (sponsored by CR Smith) at school whilst Rangers tops (sponsored by McEwan's Lager) were allowed. Damm Hun teacher!

    Don't know

    Dundee, after a reversal of the Livi decision
  6. neilh

    neilh └┴┬─├┼╔╩╣

    could see this thread, or similar ones, becoming long running.
    i'll post more tonight when i've got the time;
    but think that mebbe the parades issue might warrant a seperate thread.
  7. pogofish

    pogofish Testicle Hairstyle

    I don't know about the parades, I've always been in parts of Scotland where they are rare but there has been an annual one in Aberdeen for the last few years. Creditibly, when they march, there is invariably no reaction to them & they fuck-off for another year. where they are an incitement to violence or used to intimidate communities, banning them would be well in order IMO. I've little illusion about the real desires of many of the thugs who take part.

    At school however it was a different matter & I spent time at one school where I was labelled a catholic because of where I lived & got shit kicked out of me for it, regularly. The schools response was to either ignore it, find every excuse to justify taking no action against the kids concerned or manufactured reasons why I was "asking for it" Some of the teachers actively encouraged it as well & I was left in no doubt that to be catholic was to be a third-class citizen of a second-class country.

    My worst experience however was more recent. When accompanying a school fotball team to a match in Lanarkshire somewhere, we turned-up in a town (ie shithole sink estate) full of Union Jack bunting & blue-dyed lawns. In the end, we had to fight-off a fair number of adults intent on doing damage to our kids - because they were wearing evil green uniforms. Fucks sake!

    Anothe colleague at that time, transferred form a Lanarkshire school after his post became untenable in the eyes of the local orange lodge. He had run a trace your ancestors course which initially got much support & encouragement from them, until they got far enough back to show that many of their true-blue loyalists had a family background that was mainly immigrant Irish catholic.
  8. hibee

    hibee Banned Banned

  9. Ich bin ein Mod

    Ich bin ein Mod does his make up in his room

    Cathkin Park will never get a safety certificate in time
  10. inflatable jesus

    inflatable jesus I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders

    I remember being chased off the Third Lanark pitch a couple of times when I was wee by misty-eyed pensioners who saw my playing football there as some kind of desecration.

    Bastards.
  11. Dave Mullen

    Dave Mullen Bolt Ya Radge!

    The other week I popped up to Glasgow for my sister's wedding. We got to the wedding venue in a taxi driven by a fuckwit with a red hand of ulster tattoo. On the day there was a G8 protest in Glasgow with a lot of bridges closed. He started going on about how they all should be lifted and was also moning about the noise of their drums waking him up. I wonder how he would react if someone made a similar point about the orange walk when all their goons try and stop people wanting to cross the road. Or bawl out fuck the pope at the top of their voices.

    The same could be said about a large proportion of Celtic supporters who have accuse everyone who does something to upset them of being an Orange Bastard or go on about how wonderful it is to be a Tim while not having been near a church since the priest through water on their head.

    I was brainwashed as a catholic in my childhood and even supported celtic for a while.I've had the usual being called a Mickey Fenian etc. I've also been accused of being a proddy/orange bastard as well.
  12. geminisnake

    geminisnake a complex mass of conflicting ideas

    Can I just point out at this stage that sectarianism is mainly a south west coast problem?

    I'm not saying it doesn't happen in the east but there sure as hell isn't the amount of crap that goes on in the west.

    1) Shoot the lot of them ;)
    2) Schools don't really make a difference (ime, may well be different elsewhere)
    3) I've heard school kids calling the kids from St Thomas' fenians, etc :(
    I very much doubt these kids even know what they are saying but are presumably hearing it at home :mad:
    4) So not going into this little gem :eek: The (sectarian)trouble started several hundred years ago, but history shows the irish/scottish are fighters, what they fight about has just changed that's all.
    5) Who cares? :D
  13. steeplejack

    steeplejack Reluctant Hardliner

    The idea that it's merely a West of Scotland problem is entirely false and complacent IMO.

    I used to think that East Coasters weren't bothered, until I watched Old Firm games in various pubs in Fife and Angus.

    Then i pretty much realised it's an all-Scotland problem which requires all of us to do something about it.

    Hard to see what that something is, though.
  14. Chorlton

    Chorlton CEO of Stupid

    agreed but, further to that there is a belief that it is exclusive to football fans in the west of scotland. Anybody who reads my dull ramblings about this on the football forums will know that the main problem i have with any of these bullshit sectarianism initives is that the politicians and media look at the football and believe that it only exists in two fields in glasgow - that, in my experience is bollocks - and they have effectively killed the atmosphere at the football games because of it. Sectarianism does exist in scotland, and yes it can manifest itself at football games - but christ you have to understand the difference between rivalry and sectarianism - the manchester derby you hear stuff that would now have you arrested in scotland - that ain't right IMO. NBM may well have been set up with the best intentions on earth but they are going about it all wrong IMO

    There are other areas places outwith football grounds where sectarianism exists but nobody seems to be bothered to look for them, because IMO again that would mean facing up to a few home truths... the easy answer is to look at the tribal actions of abunch of football fans.

    • Have a proper deabte on schooling by all means but don't allow it to become something with which to attack catholics with
    • Ban all parades - fuck them - ban every parade going, ban republican marches, orange parades - hell, ban gay pride and sally army as well.
    • Have police and politicians declare membership of Lodges (masonic, AOH, Orange and dennis the menace fan club) for tranparency.

    • Ok i'm biased,i am a celtic fan - i am not denying we have some fucken rockets in our support - of course we do, absolute fucken cretins some of them *but* i do not honestly see how we can be compared to our mentally challenged knuckle dragging brethern on the other side of town - and this is one of my problems with NBM, that every critiscm of one must be followed by the other being critiscised to show an even handedness - now i realise some will disagree and some may have stories of celtic fans bein dicks - i accept that some are - my point is that i cannot see it to be comparable with the sporting wing of the BNP over there - like i say, i'm biased, but i really can't it
    • Define Sectarianism and know the difference between that and rivalry - anyone see that bullshit panorama program - they showed huns and examples of the huns sectarian songs - they were singing 'rule britannia' - now i dislike the bastards with a passion but i cannot see for the life of me how singing 'rule brittania' is in anyway shape or form sectarian - its this kind of lazy journalism, coupled with soundbites about how awful the whole thing is by no-nowts that is really grating..
    • make everybody watch 'restless natives' the bit where the celtic fan and the rangers fan run behind the bike with a saltire - its beautiful

  15. cathal marcs

    cathal marcs Is it wicked not to care?

    Im not sure if what you say is quite correct here is an extract from an interview with Seamus Costello shortly after the IRSM was formed:

    Q. What is the position about education in regard to clerical control?

    The education system in the 26 counties is a sectarian education system controlled in the main by a Catholic clergy. We are completely opposed to this. We want a secular system in both parts of the country.

    Q. How would you see the problem of school integration in the North?

    In principle we are in favour of an integrated secular education system. The difficulty about the present situation in the North is that if we do have an integrated education system, it means in effect that we have an education system which is under the control of the pro-imperialist section of the population. So, in the present conditions we would have to argue and oppose that development. The Catholic community in the North have controlled their own education system. The state has controlled the education of the Protestants or loyalists. While we disagree with the Catholic Church controlling the education system, Catholic education has tended to produce people who have some form of anti-imperialist attitudes and sentiments, and even politics. We think it is better to maintain that than to destroy it. When we have the destruction of the six-county state, we would have a national education system for the whole country which would be secularized.

    http://irsm.org/history/costello/seamus03.html

    As far as I am aware there s no major change into that outlook but I may be mistaken
  16. inflatable jesus

    inflatable jesus I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders

    Interesting replies so far. :)

    The banning parades idea intrinsically sounds like a great idea to me, but the more I think about it, the uneasier I am with it.

    I don't mean to sound like a hippy but I don't think that any useful solution can come out of executive legislatory action. I think that it's really got to come from people actually changing their minds about certain things.

    I guess what I mean is that we need proper debate about what it is, where it came from and what we can do about it.

    I don't want this stupid pretend debate with such narrow limits. I don't want arsehole politicians telling the papers they're going to 'crack down on bigotry' when everyone knows they can do fuck all and will do fuck all.

    I think Chorlton is absolutely correct when he talks about an unwillingness to deal with certain 'home truths'. I hadn't actually thought about it until cathal marcs brought it up the issue of education, but perhaps it might be nice if the history of religion and immigration in Scotland was actually covered within Scottish schools and not left to parents to tell their kids about.

    I have another question though:

    Do you think that poverty has a role in the history of religious conflict in Scotland and/or in it's continuance? If so what? If not why?
  17. cathal marcs

    cathal marcs Is it wicked not to care?

    On the issue of Parades im not into banning them but they ned to be cut.Cant mnd the exact stats but Orange Parades make up at least 80% of all arades in Scotland I think its higher and will get more accurate figures asap. Give them their respective 'bigone' in each city arly July but cut all the pain in the arse 'church parades' that piss off every one on a tuesday night n April etc.If you ban their parades they would bloody bring down as many civil liberties as they could with them.

    Secondl if there is enough people not wanting a parade through their area well they can stop the parade.


    In my view poverty has been a main player historically in competing for Jobs etc
  18. neilh

    neilh └┴┬─├┼╔╩╣

    right, here goes -

    schools - can't say i believe in seperate schools, but don't think it's the cause of the problem or as significant a factor as some make out. also, i think some folk don't think it's gonna happen, so say they want it to happen meaning it's a stick they can constantly use against the other side, but i think there would possibly be quite a few objections from non-catholics if the integration of schools ever seemed to be seriously going ahead.
    also, i'm not convinced how non-denominational non-catholic schools are; they're still meant to have hymns, a basically judaeochristian ethos/morality and don't look too fondly on atheism a times, as far as i've heard.

    parades - i don't go to either, and wouldn't weep to see both them disappear, but would be wary to see any government legislation curtailing this kinda thing; (judging from this year in glasgow, i think the mayday streetparty would possibly feel the effect of any such legislation for a start); also, i'm sure some folk involved would thrive in the position of "being denied their democratic right"; i do think communities having more say over them would be a better way.
    also, much as i recognise there are plenty of narrow minded sectarian bigots on both sides, i think there is a distinct difference between orange and republican marches if not always in attendees at least in what they're about. to me, the orange ones do seem to be based on sectarianism, and confusion about 17th century events and rulers, whereas the basis of republican parades seem to be political opposition to the british state and their role at present in ireland. when they go down my street (which is not nearly as often as the orange marches) you see them going by with their palestinian, basque and catalan flags; last year when the orange march went up govan road they left stickers up with union jacks with swasticas in the middle of them advertising some obscure hitlerist sect. yes, due to the demographics mebbe the vast majority of folk on republican marches are from a catholic upbringing, but i've met plenty protestants or athiests with republican views. and i do think it sets a bit of a scary precedent for a political march as such to be banned by the government/police. i think they'd do their own cause a lot more favours if as many of them didnt wear celtic tops to them though.

    personal experiences - went to a catholic school, saw plenty of bigotry from celtic fans; was one of the few guys not a celtic fan, so considered orange to a certain extent by folk who considered themselves much more irish despite never having seen the place. have been lifted for breach of the peace for wearing a donegal top (g.a.a)walking past an orange march - had been wearing it all day on a hot summers day and could not get where i was going without passing them, most of the folk in the crowd didn't react, were just rangers fans having a pissup and probably didn't even know what it was, then when just about past them, one of the guys wi the bowler hats pointed at us and said something to the cops, and before i knew it i was cuffed in the back of a polis car with 2 other cops who didn't know why i had been lifted as they thought it was some italian top or something, and who were pissed off at having to police an orange march as they thought they were a load of sectarian nonsense. the charges were dropped, though, they obviusly realised how ludicrous it was. also have been pulled up at work for wearing the same top because no old firm colours were allowed, when i pointed out it wasn even a football top and there were plenty folk wearing rugby or cricket tops, they said but it was like a celtic top, which pissed me off as i ain't a celtic fan. it does piss me off that stuff with any connection to ireland, even if not remotely sectarian or to do wi political stuff, is seen by loads of folk in scotland as sectarian. i tend to never wear that top now cos i can't be arsed wi the hassle, which is a shame as i like it.
    also, a good few nights each year i'm kept awake by the guy upstairs playing tapes of songs glorifying loyalist organisations killing folk, till 5 in the morning, so loud i can make out the words wi earplugs in; half it's well shite as well, sounds like jive bunny's orange megamix or something.
  19. cathal marcs

    cathal marcs Is it wicked not to care?

    Oddly enough the RA used to protect orange marchers in Donegal. More to show they would have nothing t fear in an Irish Republic. here are peacefull marches in Donegal every year.
  20. inflatable jesus

    inflatable jesus I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders

    Aye, I think the schools thing is just a wall that certain people put up to stop the debate from reaching as far as it should.

    I'd like to see Catholics and Protestants educated together. I'd like to see an end to religious influence on education altogether, and while it does have an effect of the issue, it is not the issue that we have to deal with.

    On the day that a new secular education bill is passed in Scotland, I would like to see Donald Findlay celebrating the day by reading a speech (that I will prepare) that praises the contribution that Irish immigrants and their decendents have made to this country and condemns the prejudice and xenephobia that they faced.

    Why?

    Because after all this time, I still get the impression that fuckers like him think I shouldn't be in Scotland. I still get the impression that they think their religion and their Protestant history makes them better than me. All I want is them to tell me honestly that it's not true.

    I want to see sectarianism talked about for what it is: An ugly xenephobia and it's historical legacy. Then we might get somewhere.
  21. The Boy

    The Boy YNKWFIGTTU

    Ok so that'e me just in from a shift that started at around 7pm last night, but I'm going to give this a shot. Apologies if it makes little sense or I lose the plot :) .

    As far as marches go, I'm one of those who would like to see them gotten rid of - both republican and loyalist/whatever. However, I don't think banning them through legislation is the way to go - someone has already mentioned the possibilty of thinks such as mayday etc being the victim of such legislation - and I think that it is wishful thinking to expect people to suddenly stop what they are doing.

    Tbh, I don't have any solid suggestions, although I do remember a few years back when the Parades Commision or whatever it's called was set up in Northern Ireland, there was a march that refused permission. The residents who wanted the march to go ahead started campaigning throughout the nearby Catholic community who were objecting to the march. Apparently by explaining why they were wanting to march etc they were able to come to sort of a compromise with the Catholic community. I dunno

    On the matter of Catholic schools, whilst I disagree with them in principle I don't really see what is to be gained by getting rid of them. 'Non-denominatory' schools, as has been poited out, still have a judaeochristian base. They still have (in my experience) religious services and the like, so you have to ask how secular they really are. I would like to see a totally secular schooling system but with a continued provision for Religious Studies. RS should not focus solely on Christian thought but should also look at other major religions.

    I'm rambling now so I'm gonna end with a positive re: experiences of bigotry. Last season I went to the pub with a crowd of friends to watch the final Old Firm game of the season - about ten of us altogether. All of these bar myself and one other who was a Hamilton fan were supporters of either Rangers or Celtic. I lost count of the number of people in the pub who expressed shock that a group of people like that could be drinking together watching an Old Firm match without it kicking off. I guess that kind of backs up what Chorlton was saying about the focus on football being misguided when trying to tackle religious bigotry.

    No idea if any of that made sense or if it was relevant, but there you go...
  22. starfish

    starfish Aloof but effective.

    I cant see why they cant integrate the schools unless the Catholic Church doesnt want to. At my school we had Prods, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists & a even a few Catholics. We were all taught together (except for Hebrew) & i dont remember there being massive divides between religions, we tended to get on. Church services were stopped in 1983 by our new Head so we were very secular in that respect. As i see it, religion has no place in state schools. If you want a religious education, fucking pay for it privately.

    Parades, a plague on both their houses. The Orange Parade used to go within 50 yards of where i used to live in Glasgow(along Victoria Road), dirty, drunken, tattooed, knuckle scrapers & the men were just as bad. The trail of shite they left behind them & the feeling of disgust i felt hasnt left me. Republican marches i have no experience of but i dont think they have any part to play in Scottish life.

    Own experiences. First was either at Kings Barns or Balcombe beach about 1976. Me & my sister were approached by a young girl who asked if we were both Cafflix because she wasnt allowed to play with Cafflix. My sister told her we were & we walked away. We arent.
    I got called a Hun bastard at the back of the Celtic end because i went to a prod school.

    Positives, like the boy, ive watched countless matches in the company of both Celtic & Rangers fans. Its hard not too when out of about 20-30 guys i used to hang around with its a 50-50 split. I know Rangers fans with Catholic wives & vice versa.

    Sectarianism is most definitley not only a Scottish/N Ireland problem. It occurs in many, many countries & on a far wider scale. It is nowhere near the scale of Hutu/Tutsi, Jew/Palestinian, Arab/African, Sunni/Shia sectarianism.

    Oh i dont know. Its hard isnt it. :confused:
  23. neilh

    neilh └┴┬─├┼╔╩╣

    yeah i meant to say this; sometimes it's similar to southern american states too. the world over, there seems to be disagreements cos of race and religion, and here doesn't seem any different.
  24. where to

    where to Well-Known Member

    ...except that almost nobody in our wee problem actually believes in the religion that they are getting all worked up over!!!

    tossers.

    i'd clamp down on rangers and celtic as institutions who exploit sectarianism to make money, and in the case of david murray, to divide the country. tory cunt that he is.

    how can it be acceptable for big busineses to go dealing with a company who scrap egg benedict cos its the name of the pope ffs. its a PR nightmare!! they are a sitting duck. if i could be arsed it wouldn't be difficult to hit them over that sort of issue imo.

    catholic schools. ban them. went to one, but whats the fucking point in them? same with mozzer, proddy, private etc etc. all kids should be taught together, common sense (to me ;-) ).

    experiences of abuse? a few jibes, spat on a couple of times going to school wearing the tie.
  25. inflatable jesus

    inflatable jesus I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders

    On the other hand though, there's loads of examples of disparate ethnic and religious groups managing to live together in relative peace. The whole catholic - proddy thing even seems like one of the ones that has been easiest for most societies to deal with.

    It seems to me that in all of those cases where there is a violent conflict along ethnic and religious lines, there's also a broader conflict that goes beyond race and religion. I would say that such conflicts are usually about power- and which social group gets to hold it.

    I would say that it's only when there are extreme differences is the allocation of wealth and power that you see these conflicts arising.

    Like the Jew/ Arab thing. I've lost count of the times I've seen that ugly racism come out from the Zionist hardliners: 'Arabs are animals, not human beings'; 'It's in an arab's nature to stab you in the back at the first opportunity he gets'; that sort of nonsense.

    Personally, I think that these racist stereotypes are only possible because there is such a substantial economic difference between Israelis and Palestinians. I think racist Israelis only see Palestinians working in low-paid jobs, living in camps and in the occupied territories as such they see them as less important.

    Even in Scotland these days, I still heard tinges of that same thing. I heard that Catholics smell bad, I heard that Catholics all live in slums. Basically, I'm still hearing the outdated legacy of a situation in which Catholics were seen as lesser people because they were poor. I would guess that the fact that the immigrants were (like my grandparents) largely simple country folks with little education and probably some odd habits, probably contributed to the xenephobia they faced.

    Here's another thing that you don't tend to hear when the subject of sectarianism comes up. I think that things are getting better. I can't say exactly how, but I'm less worried now about getting a kicking when I'm walking down the street for being a catholic. You could say that it's an irrational fear in the first place but it's not. It's happenned.

    I would say that the reason this is the case is because the economic differences between catholics and Protestants are being made up. I read somewhere that Catholics still tend to make less money than protestants. I don't expect that to last much longer.

    I would say that of the people that have been arrested for sectarian crimes in Scotland, very few of them were living in Bearsden and attending the opera when not at the game. I would say that if arseholes like McConnell, really wanted to do something about sectarianism, then they should do something about poverty and slum living. I would say it's that that leads to crime and violence, not football.

    I would say that having officially three of Europe's worst slums is Scotland's real shame.
  26. cathal marcs

    cathal marcs Is it wicked not to care?

    Excellent post inflateable jesu. You seem to grasp the economic and political nature of the problem. Oddly enough though when you mention Bearsden it may not be overtly sectarian or racists as say in a scheme where you are called a 'fenian cunt' or a 'paki bastard' or the like but there defintely is a more hidden sinister racism/dectarianism, 'what will they do to the house price if they move next door' etc.
  27. JWH

    JWH Fnord Fiesta XR3i

    Hi - sorry, I want to disagree with you there. I don't agree that the Yugoslav wars were the result of religious sectarianism, even if they had a religious dimension. In Bosnian/Croatian wars, religion was a signifier of nationality/ethnicity rather than a root cause.
  28. JWH

    JWH Fnord Fiesta XR3i

    3 out of how many?
  29. hibee

    hibee Banned Banned

    Just noticed this... the bit I've highlighted seems pretty unambiguous about the catholic w/c being more "advanced" in marxist terms, don't you think?
  30. Red Faction

    Red Faction Allez Les Rouges

    :eek:
    name them
    :eek:

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