Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed

Would it be fair to characterise the situation like this? : Paeodophilia is a crime committed within all races and cultures, but the particular form that the crime takes often differs along cultural/societal lines. Institutional paedophilia (for example in the catholic church), or sex tourism (Garry Glitter types going to Thailand, etc) is primarily a white phenomena, whereas street-grooming gangs are primarily Asian.

Furthermore, the make-up of the victims is shaped by the cultural and social situations that are existent at the time and place. So given that the pool of vulnerable women available to this grooming gang was mostly white, white girls were disproportionately victimised as a result. Similarly, if we take paedo-tourism, the crime can be seen as being relatively powerful white men taking advantage of vulnerable Asian women in their home country.

I certainly believe that an understanding of the social and cultural dynamics is neccessary to tackle the problem, but a narrative needs to be formed in the mainstream that is balanced, non-divisive, and productive. If this narrative is not formed, then the far-right will take advantage of this issue to push their agenda.

Also, I would like to say that explanation is not the same as justification. Explanation is a good thing as it can help resolve an ongoing situation; justification amounts to moral cowardice. Sticking our heads in the sand is also not an option.

Surely there would have to be some actual evidence that Nick Griffin actually knew anything at all for this inane comment to make a difference?

Otherwise anyone could ruin any trial at any time, by simply "tweeting" some completely ignorant comment that they "knew the person would be found guilty". Or not guilty. Or anything?

Giles..

Is there a CIF article? The Guardian doesn't let comments on news articles

Good article.

Also, butchers, mind if I DM you about something you might well be able to help me with (or at least point me in the right direction?)

Good, nicely balanced, post. Especially that (bolded) bit.

That should go down well in Heywood

No worries at all, but I'm away with only a crap phone till Saturday...

What do you suggest then?

You are the one characterising not me mate

I've no idea what that means. What do you suggest should be the approach to debating an issue that is tied up to all sorts of cultural and social dynamics in very subtle and sensitive ways? How do you propose that this issue should be addressed in Heywood? How should the debate be framed?

TBF, you didn't have to type further than that.

Stoat Boy in "I'm an utter wanker" non-shocker.

I reckon it boils down to a similar set of reasons as for stuff like Kincora and other care institution/care leaver scandals - a mixture of opportunity and the fact that the perpetrators could be fairly sure the authorities would have a hard job getting a handle on it because of the various "sensitivities" around who the defendants were/are.

I haven't read through all the pages, so apols if someone else has made the point. Who is it who grooms and recruits vulnerable young women into the porn/sex industry, because there's plenty in it? Who is it who prints images of women in school uniforms on the front covers of our trashier newspapers. Who is it that sells thongs and other inappropriate clothing for little girls. Who organises beauty pageants for little girls, in which they are dressed up like mini women and sexualised beyond belief? I haven't expressed myself terrribly well, but what I'm trying to say, like other posters have, its endemic, societal and not confined to any one particular ethnic group. A lot of it is more subtle, more pervasive and hugely detrimental to how girls and young women see themselves.

Isn't it fair to say, though, that the majority of British Pakistanis have their origins in the Mirpur region, so that the majority of groomers deriving their heritage from there would be a foregone conclusion?

You really are a self-righteous sack of shit. You assume that if only these victims had come from a "strong family background", they'd have likely been okay? Their "strong family background" could have been why they ended up in care in the first place, you cock.

Because social care is so massively underfunded, even for childrens' services, which get the "cream" of social care funding alongside the elderly, that protecting them is almost impossible, especially if protecting them means preventing them from doing stuff.

Why is it underfunded? Because people care more about paying less Council Tax, than about a relative handful of teenage girls having physical and mental scars for the rest of their lives, or at least aren't aware that their Council Tax staying at the same level for 3 years running translates to reduced local services even outwith "austerity" cuts.

He's not even being disingenuous.

This is interesting. I don't recall anyone saying that Gary Glitter's abuse of young brown girls was racially motivated.

The strange calculus the CPS use to decide whether witnesses are credible means that at the least hundreds of abuse cases, on children, the elderly and people with learning disabilities aren't prosecuted because the case isn't an "easy win".

This is an astonishing thing. Its quiet but its happening.

I "liked" this post, but I don't like it. It's true, though.

Yep, made me think of Kincora, too.

`

As far as it goes, you have a point. However, one could look at "modern" British history and point out that 150 years ago, the grooming of underage females for sex was a pursuit of the British middle- and upper-classes, and that sex with underage girls was legally permissible, so we shouldn't make any hard and fast "rules" about such things based on what is a changing and fluid social and cultural background. I'd also say that we may not have the whole story w/r/t these perverts. We don't know, and probably never will, if these men committed such crimes against members of their own communities.

They'll attempt to do that whether there's a cohesive narrative or not, but I take your point.

Nope, in fact while he was still able to attract and groom teenage girls over here, he didn't bother going abroad. Being able to go to Thailand just made his predatory behaviour that much more "invisible" to people in the UK.

Don't worry, I got why you "liked" it.
Yep, it's true and it's something very few people in the media (honourable exceptions being Private Eye and a couple of "campaigning" journos on the broadsheets). I knew kids in care in the 70s who had the same with the DPP. I remember Edie mentioning kids she knew reporting stuff, and the CPS dropping action because the kids were in care and/or substance abusers and/or had criminal records. I can also remember a scandal at a south London school for children with what was back then referred to as "mental handicaps" where members of staff were reported over and over down the years, and nothing was done. That's frankly the tip of a massive iceberg, especially as we've a bit more insight nowadays into how institutional dynamics can actually attact predatory abusers.

A CPS drone once asked me "isn't it better that we prosecute a rape case where we've got the possibility of locking some scumbag away, rather than risk the judge throwing the case out because the victim can't follow the to and fro of cross-examination?".
This was after they'd supposedly changed a lot of the predicates in the late '90s to make it easier for "vulnerable" people to testify.

Size of the problem is a very relevant point in the debate about attitudes to women in some asian cultures. The theory is, in this debate, that there is a cultural element to that. I dont dispute that there is a debate to be had about cultural attitudes but is that a separate issue to criminality? What I'm saying if this is cultural then why arent the majority of asians involved in these activities? The danger is the lines between criminality start to become blurred with cultural issues. I dont doubt there are asians that view women along the lines of the 'virgin and whore' and there'll be some who think women are subservient-but for some reason these men took that one step further. So it may (or may not be) one end of a spectrum or it may (or not be) sheer criminality.

The way you take this away from the right is by flagging up the wider issues-you dont play into or feed into their agenda. To conclude. There is a debate about societal attitudes in some cultural attitudes within Islam to women. But it needs to be sensible and reasoned and not hysterical. As we are debating now within this very thread.

I also think you'll find the views of serial sexual abusers is one of their victims being worthless per se and its not unique to Pakistani offenders like this.

How is this about Islam other than how the actions of religious adherents are framed and categorised within a cultural setting...? There is definitely an importance of asking questions about power relations and exploitation of women in xyz religion, but in this case, whilst it's awkward and definitely not what keith vaz etc want to hear, the abuse of these girls was coming from a specific social grouping and some/various cultural attitudes within it.

It's definitely not unique to Pakistani origin communities etc, far from it, but when like reported in this article about the campaigner on this issue, Mohammed Shafiq that "This gang was the talk of the town among the taxi drivers. People were appalled because it’s nothing to do with faith, nothing to do with Islam" you've got some serious conversations which aren't being had because people don't want to air dirty laundry in public etc. It seems a bit naive to pretend that this hasn't happened at times within the Pakistani origin UK community, especially when people are worried about racial tensions and the BNP/far right stirring stuff up. That's much less to do with Islam and much more to do with specific cultural contexts though. Hrmm it's late I don't feel i'm explaining myself very well tbh.

That is a load of rubbish. Has it not occured to you that you only know about white people committing these crimes because of what you see on the news. Even within the Catholic church paedophilia is also practiced by Africans, similarly the sex tourists in south Asia are not all white

BBC news now referring to these men as the Rochdale 9.....made me shiver...those that know me and Ayatollah will understand....