Norway: Oslo bomb and island shooting spree kills over 70 people

I think the study of psychopathy historically was seen as a branch of criminal psychology and most cases studies of psychopaths are criminal psychopaths. I think if you combine a certain personality type with abuse then you get a criminal psychopath. Breivik on the other hand doesn't seem to have had much abuse as a child nor did he have any run ins with the law (as far as I am aware) - so he's not necessarily typical of the literature on the subject.

Having said that I don't think he is a psychopath. He doesn't seem to be particularly dishonest or duplicitous or glib or controlling or manipulative. Just very, very cold and somewhat grandiose.

reading into it a bit more...I think you are right.

The problem is one of class again. Most of the criminals that end up in jail for violent crimes are working class, therefore our definition of what a sociopath is comes from that and most examples of sociopathy are viewed through that lens. Would David Cameron be classed as a sociopath? Based on how he behaves, the fact that he has no problem with lying (for example lying to voters faces and using his disabled kid to get people to vote for him) to a point most people would consider quite base and unacceptable, his use of putdowns, the fact that he seems to take pleasure in people's discomfort (calling the BBC cuts "delicious" etc) the fact that he is superficial, a parasitc lifestyle (lol) a grandiose ego, has evidence of a conduct disorder in his youth such as smashing up toilets with the Bullingdon lot, superficial charm, etc,i would say that he would meet the medical definition of a psychopath, but he has not ended up in jail and not (been caught) doing any violent offence. I don't know whether he suffered abuse as a child, probably not. Could it be that we are basing our medical knowledge on a sample of people who've actually been diagnosed as psychopaths and not actually looking at the full picture?

Lens on backwards.

Cameron's not a psychopath, Blair on the other hand...Did read somewhere a lot of bosses r actual sociopaths tho.

Sorry should have been more clear. Most of the ones THAT ARE CAUGHT and THAT PEOPLE THINK DID IT, also most of the ones THAT ARE INVESTIGATED. The ruling class making/implementing the law etc.

It's like the bullingdon toilet thing, anyone else doing that would have been put in jail and got a serious criminal record but he ended up becoming prime minister.

What makes you think that? I think it's the other way round (tho blair's got to be pretty close). My impression of Blair was that he was a religious gobshite with a massive ego, he genuinely did believe that iraq had to be invaded as it was God's will etc.

Reverse what you said above.

Gotcha. Our definition of what a sociopath is comes from examining small sample of people who are mostly working class, or thought to be (because of the ruling class making the law, helping create the conditions that make people turn to crime and have shit upbringings etc) so most of the criminals caught (not necessarily most of those who did it) end up being working class, because of assumptions within the legal system about who's "respectable" etc as well, the process ends up carrying on. So when we look at sociopaths and what a sociopath or a psychopath is it ends up being a biased definition of it ...

And also there's the fact that some laws are, in themselves, sociopathic ... but the people who made them arent ever gonna be in court

Recent studies point to psychopaths being over-represented in banking, the stock exchange, etc: maybe 4-5 % where it's about 1 % of the general population. You're right that those who end up in jail tend, like most people who end up in jail, to have had a difficult life of one kind or another. If - as appears likely - there is a genetic component to psychopathy, those with that component who are born into extreme privilege are more likely to end up in a boardroom than a prison cell.

That said, I'm not sure about Cameron. There are other ways to distance yourself emotionally from the consequences of your decisions.

I think there is much truth in what frogwoman says about class - if you look at the Hare pyschopathy checklist there are traits under the "socially deviant lifestyle" heading which are more characteristic of a working class delinquent than a middle class delinquent. But I also think researchers are aware of this bias. Robert Hare of the checklist fame co-wrote a book called Snakes in Suits about corporate psychopaths which you might find interesting.

I'm not sure about David Cameron or Tony Blair being psychopaths - they might have some of the features, but I think the disorder is more profound than that. I think it would be difficult for a psychopath to get to the top in politics these days - they are under too much scrutiny and given that they are impulsive and have little sense of consequences of their actions, they will slip up. Think Jeffery Archer.

It doesn't really matter whether they could get ahead in politics (I disagree that they could not) - corporate psychopaths don't need to do their own dirty work when they have easily pocketable politicians to control:

I'm not sure about "psychopaths rising to key senior positions" causing the banking crisis. I'm willing to believe many of them were psychopaths but the structural and institutional pressures that job puts on people forces them to act like psychopaths. So you get actual psychopaths and people willing to act like psychopaths at the top. That doesn't excuse them - nobody with a living soul would want to take that job in the first place but I think claiming that the crisis was "caused" by this lets the system itself off the hook. It's a bit like conspiracy theories in that respect - bad stuff happens cos there are evil people at the top - get rid of the evil people and we can have utopia under the current system.

(Not saying that's what you actually think, but it's how this kind of stuff can be used)

Aye. Conspiracy theories are for people who refuse to think about systems, and insist on individual sin as explanation for everything.

The bank is a "corporate psychopath" -we can see this in its Articles of Association and company law.

That is why it would hire individual psychopaths.

Google "ponerology" and you'll find a load stuff which is more than a bit like conspiracy theorising.

i agree absolutely, the point i was sort of trying to get to (in a clumsy way, sorry butchers etc) was that because most of the researchers will have come from middle class backgrounds etc, and because of the processes by which they were able to get there, (NOT because of some conspiracy) they will frequently see crime as a working class thing, and the overwhelming majority of people in prison come from the working class or lumpen class and often people will be unwilling to give them any leeway and will assume the worst of their behaviour. whereas someone middle class who ends up in jail will often but not always be someone "whose life took a wrong turn" or something even if for a long time they've exhibited the traits of psychopathy.

im not saying that DC is a psychopath, but someone with his personality from a different background would probably have been labelled one and they certainly wouldn't have got to be the prime minister in the end

Like in the Penny Red thread, where that right wing journo says he disagrees with everything she says but she's a "nice middle class girl" so she should get away with her hackery?

I haven't really given it much thought but I think I probably agree with you. My post was meant as a comment on the article YMU posted, guess I should have quoted it really.

I think the understanding of psychopathy has increased greatly over the last couple of decades or so. It isn't seen as a trait purely to do with criminals - working class or otherwise. It's understood to correlate to certain cognitive traits to do with failure to emotionally process words and other's behaviour and being indifferent to punishment. As I say, there is some serious literature on corporate psychopaths.

totally Yeah, I know there's some decent literature about. Ive got a lot of time for Robert Hare.

There was a documentary with Noam Chomsky and Michael Moore in it about corporations, as artificial persons, are effectively psychopaths. I'll see if I can find it on the internets.

Edit: here it is, ignore the reference to NWO in the title - it was clearly posted by a loonspud but it's not a loonspud video.

I can see how that could be - acting without emotional judgement (the bottom line/ share price, or whatever is all that matters, and if that means folk losing their jobs, or lives, then so be it), and consequently not able to recognise the emotional effect on others.

At risk of going Godwin's, it is the process by which good people end up doing bad things, isn't it? You make decisions at work that are for the good of the company, following the logic of profit, which have real bad consequences for people, and which are the kind of decision you'd never make in any other context.

Yeah, I completely agree with that.

My general take on political systems and organisational structures is that if they rely on decent people being in charge they are doomed to fail.

Last survivor witness testimony today. Of that day, there were still a few more to go during the week.

His mam reckons he's mental. Guardian.

Poor woman.

Although religious, It was about Blair's "mission" and his "legacy" to the world. The messianic fool, who should have heeded French President Chirac's words. Still, in public at least, Blair trots out that he did good.

Interesting - the psychs who declared Breivik insane did so largely on the basis that he felt he had a personal mission to re-order the world based on a self-appointed authority.

Blair had Campbell saying "we don't do god" in his ear.

Verdict due within the hour, insane or criminal.