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Neighborhood Watch Shooting in Florida (Treyvon Martin)

Discussion in 'world politics, current affairs and news' started by Yuwipi Woman, Mar 20, 2012.

  1. Yuwipi Woman

    Yuwipi Woman Whack-A-Mole Queen

    This story about the killing of Treyvon Martin has really been filling up the news here this week. It's a bit suprising, usually the news media only puts out an effort is the victim is young, female, and blonde.

    It seems pretty clear that in most states he'd be charged with at least manslaughter, but instead with Florida's laws killing this kid was perfectly legal with the claim that it was self defense. "Self defense" evidently consists of getting out of your car against the orders of a police dispatcher, running after a kid walking on a public sidewalk, and shooting him while he screamed for help.

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...shooting-death-of-florida-teen-trayvon-martin
  2. 8ball

    8ball Rusty Spoons...

    Weird one - looks almost like the kid got freaked by being followed by an apparent weirdo, confronted him, then got shot by him.

    Good old Jeb Bush - now you can actually hunt your 'self defense' victims down. :facepalm:
    stuff_it and Red Storm like this.
  3. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Any idea what "These @!$%#s. They always get away." the sweary stuff was? Racial?
  4. weepiper

    weepiper eb slootly non verbal

    Only in America could 'walking around' while it's raining be considered threatening behaviour :(
    manny-p, frogwoman and lighterthief like this.
  5. binka

    binka !!!!!!!!!

    i was reading about this last week and just couldnt get my head around the fact that the police refused to arrest zimmerman saying [paraphrasing] 'he claims it was self defence and we have nothing to prove it wasnt'
  6. binka

    binka !!!!!!!!!

    i thought that but google shows others reporting it as 'a******s'
  7. Yuwipi Woman

    Yuwipi Woman Whack-A-Mole Queen

    No telling for sure without the edited version. It was either "fuckers" or something of about that length. There were several other calls to 911 and you could hear the kid screaming for help in the background.
  8. Yuwipi Woman

    Yuwipi Woman Whack-A-Mole Queen

    I'm reminded of a line from Emo Phillps.

    "We had a black out last week."

    "It's ok though, the cops came and made him get back in the car."

    I guess walking while black is threatening behavior some places.
    weltweit and frogwoman like this.
  9. Yuwipi Woman

    Yuwipi Woman Whack-A-Mole Queen

    Yeh, the "Stand Your Ground" law in Florida seems to be a license for murder:

    Source: same as above.
  10. JHE

    JHE Horrified to have made 10,000 posts

    The dead teenager is black. Unless the killer is also black, this will be seen as a racist killing.
  11. Red Storm

    Red Storm M14

    I wonder what would have happened if the black lad shot this Zimmerman, with a legal weapon etc?

    Would that have justifiable homicide?
  12. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    He's not black - Zimmerman i mean. Which i why i was wondering if he had said something racial.
  13. Yuwipi Woman

    Yuwipi Woman Whack-A-Mole Queen

    I find that more frightening than some random guy shooting someone just out walking. That shows an institutionally ingrained policy of declaring something self defense when you have compelling evidence otherwise:

    * The 911 call where he disregarded more than one direct order by the dispatcher.

    * The victim was armed only with a bag of Skittles and iced tea.

    * The other 911 calls with the victim screaming for help in the background.

    * The 49 previous calls by Zimmerman to 911 to report people walking around the neighborhood, most of them black.

    * The victim had a completely legitimate reason to be where he was at the time he was. (He was visiting his father's girlfriend who lived there.)
  14. agricola

    agricola atomic materialist

    Which is another reason why the repeated attempts over here to "improve" self-defence law (despite it already providing a clear defence for people who use force, including deadly force, in defence of themselves / someone else) should be rigorously opposed.
  15. scifisam

    scifisam feck! arse! girls! drink!

    I've been following this too. It sounds like there really isn't much they can do - they can't disprove his claim and that's all it needs.

    But it also sounds like the police perhaps don't want to do much: they never drug- and alcohol-tested him, which is usual after a homicide, they stated that his record was squeaky-clean when he has a previous arrest for assaulting a police officer - an expunged offence, so he's clean, but not squeaky-clean - and stated that they did not believe he set out to kill anyone that night, which is a bit of a comprehensive statement to make in public.
  16. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Every single thing you need about this case here - transcripts, recordings, everything...
  17. Yuwipi Woman

    Yuwipi Woman Whack-A-Mole Queen

    If I were on the jury the prosecutor could sell me manslaughter based on the evidence from the 911 tapes. It seems pretty clear from them that Zimmerman was the aggressor.
  18. scifisam

    scifisam feck! arse! girls! drink!

    You almost certainly wouldn't get 12 jurors who'd vote that way, though. Not that it was manslaughter beyond a reasonable doubt. Unless there's new evidence to come, of course.
  19. Yuwipi Woman

    Yuwipi Woman Whack-A-Mole Queen

    I hope we get to see these theories tested in court.
    spring-peeper likes this.
  20. ymu

    ymu Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet

    It's hard to see how he could prove self-defence when there is evidence that he was the aggressor.
  21. agricola

    agricola atomic materialist

    I disagree - if this ever got to court, Zimmermann would have to come up with a self-defence argument that would defeat a considerable amount of evidence (the 911 tapes, the apparent fact that Martin wasnt actually doing anything illegal or even suspicious, various witnesses that appear to exist and the apparent fact that Zimmermann initiated the whole incident) showing that this wasnt a justified use of self-defence, even under Florida law.
  22. scifisam

    scifisam feck! arse! girls! drink!

    Just because he initiated the incident doesn't mean it can't be self-defence - if he claims he confronted Martin non-violently and Martin then hit him (they definitely did fight and the killer was injured), and he believed Martin had a gun (there's a comment about Martin's hand being in his waistband and him 'going for something'), then it's still self-defence.

    The law in Florida specifically does not say that he has to take the opportunity to leave the fight if he has the opportunity to - 'that stand your ground' law says that staying to fight is fine.

    I mean, I don't think it was really self-defence, but getting a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt, with no contradictory physical evidence (so far) and the defendant sitting there talking about how scared he was and how much he regrets the incident? On a jury that the defence will have had a hand in selecting, in a state that loves guns? A guilty verdict seems very unlikely.
  23. Yuwipi Woman

    Yuwipi Woman Whack-A-Mole Queen

    If I were Zimmerman's lawyer I'd be scared of putting him on the stand. It looks like his mental health wasn't the best. For instance, he tried and failed to become a police officer. There's some reports that he failed the mental health test. In addition, he's got a previous run-in with the police where he was arrested for fighting with an officer, but the charges weren't prosecuted. I wouldn't bet on him standing up to sustained questioning.

    There's also an inherent bias against anyone charged with a crime. There's a lot of people who'll say that you wouldn't be there if there wasn't a reason for it. I'm betting that you'll find more of that type in the jury pool in a state that loves guns.

    In addition, there were at least 4 calls to 911, some of which recorded the incident. That's a lot of witnesses to overcome if he tells a different story than they do.
  24. scifisam

    scifisam feck! arse! girls! drink!

    The 911 calls aren't very detailed, though - there's really not much for his statement to contradict.They don't record the incident - there are no sounds of fighting or anything like that, and two of them just heard a shot or shots (they contradict each other), not seeing anything at all. One call also seems to say that Martin was standing over Zimmerman.

    I agree about the bias against anyone being charged with a crime. There's also a bias against young black men, though.

    The expunged arrest report wouldn't be admissable in court, would it? And TBH, it doesn't sound that bad anyway - he put a hand on an officer when his friend was being arrested for underage drinking.

    The things he said, the multiple phone calls he made, complaints about Zimmerman by his neighbours and him following Martin and him being so much bigger than Martin all make me think it wasn't self-defence, but a unanimous guilty verdict? Can't see it. A civil trial might be one way to go, though - I'm sure the family will get plenty of offers of funding for it.
  25. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    If they called 911 they presumably have visual evidence they could offer.
  26. xes

    xes F.O.A.D

    http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/george-zimmerman-call-to-sanford-police/vGZq9/

    this has the call, at 2:22-23 he says "fucking coon"

    sounds pretty racially motivated to me.

    Also, Zimmerman doesn't sound like he's a very nice person.
    http://loop21.com/life/trayvon-martins-neighbors-zimmerman-agressive-history

    let's hope the police decide to charge the cunt, and I hope he gets the death penatly.
    another link with more calls
    http://www.theroot.com/buzz/911-calls-released-trayvon-martin-killing/?gt1=38002
    frogwoman likes this.
  27. xes

    xes F.O.A.D

  28. Yuwipi Woman

    Yuwipi Woman Whack-A-Mole Queen

    Hadn't heard that particular call before.

    As far as the death penalty, I don't think that'll be on the table. They can't prove first degree murder, unless they've far more evidence that he went out that night specifically to kill someone. I don't think they have that. I still think they could make manslaughter.
  29. xes

    xes F.O.A.D

    maybe someone in the area could be "threatened" by him and blow his head off. :)
  30. Yuwipi Woman

    Yuwipi Woman Whack-A-Mole Queen

    It depends on what argument the prosecutor makes if the prior run-in with the police is allowed.

    The bias could work both ways. Zimmerman is hispanic and that might work against him as much as Martin's race might work against him.

    The long history of 911 calls is public record and would probably make it in for intent. The prosecutor would probably try to make the case that Zimmerman was a vigilante looking for a fight.

    You forgot the 911 call where Martin is clearly begging for help in the background before the gunshot.

    I agree that Zimmerman is probably toast when it comes to a civil trial for damages.

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