Discussion in 'football' started by newme, Jun 8, 2011.
You'd have to jump up a bit first...
he's not very tall himself.
anyway my point was more about the double standard over the defensive and offensive dark arts in Britain. Man handling players is seen as clever or part and parcel whilst a tricky winger going to ground a tad easy is a cheating bastard.
Yes, there is a very inconsistent approach by referees, but that's also true across Europe.
No I mean in the media reaction, in the wider culture.
At the risk of ripping the arse out of it, physical force is seen as fair enough even when it passes into the illegal, whilst sneakier forms of gaining an advantage are decried and this mirrors the tendency towards anti intellectualism in the british game.
Diving or making the most of contact isn't looked down upon so much in other parts of Europe.
Man United of course being the intellectual wing of trickery?
Eh, what, United defenders are as capable of shirt pulling and man handling as any others (Vidic is a master of these dark arts) but they don't get called cheaters for it, unlike players who go to ground easy or with no contact.
This really isn't a partisan issue.
If you've been watching games recently commentators are making an issue of the shirt pulling and how it should be a foul. The only person making a twat of himself has been Jamie Redknapp.
Yeah I know there has been a kick up with shirt pulling and bear hugs at set pieces but like you say this is recent and even then it's treated as an issue with the reffing of the game, the players doing it aren't pilloried in the same way a player going down easy is, rather it's accepted that players will push their luck on such matters.
Facts are that Vidic can hold onto a players shirt and his honour is not questioned but Nani get's a tap on the ankle, goes over, wins a penalty or free kick and he's a cheat ruining the game. For me both are chancing their arm on the limits of the game in order to gain an advantage.
i think you know where the attitude comes from surely..'it's a mans game', or so they say right?
Pulling shirts, holding on and so on are all part of the physical battle between players, but falling over from a faint tap on the ankle is a bit pathetic, especially if it's accompanied by so much writhing around on the ground.
like most people I think both should be punished, but personally I have to say that given the choice I'd rather not see too much diving. I think it's the difference between trying to get away with something that the ref doesn't see as opposed to actually trying to con the ref. the second is just a bit more... unpalatable?
That's my point it comes from a more macho perspective. As a short arse ponce used to being kicked and pushed up and down the pitch as a 14 year old I'm prone to side with the sneaky ball player than the lumbering fuck, afterall if he's going to cheat using his size I'll cheat using my wit. I think the British and Irish focus on physicality has held it's football back, with players like Scholes and Young nearly slipping through the net at youth level where big and strong dominates.
Defend new intellectualism in the British game , foward with sneakier forms of advantage
I'm not so sure there's a particular amount of wit needed to dive and feign injury, but I take your point and agree its perhaps the natural reaction to counter the more physical styles of cheating - ultimately you'll probably agree there would be no place for either in the game, but the fact that diving is more acceptable on the continent (if that is anything more than a well recited myth from the 70s, I don't know) isn't for me a pointer in the way the game should be going or a reflection of anti intellectualism.
I like football to be physical game, because it is a contact sport and would hate to see that side of the game taken away, but it's so hard to balance players who tackle hard and fairly against the ones who set out to injure and bully smaller players - especially at youth levels as you say.
I suppose I've been on both sides over the years, I've had players dive against me when I've not even touched them, and I've had players kick me up in the air if I managed to get past them ( a rare occurrence!) if im honest as long as I wasn't injured then I'd take the free kick and get on with it, and got a lot more annoyed by the diving, but maybe that's just me.
It looked like we got lucky with that goal, the way the game is going now the slightest of touch's are being penalised, Wigan can't complain to much though because their players are also going down as well as soon as they feel any kind of touch.
The bhoy done good.
"Sometimes you get the breaks and sometimes you don't. Today we didn't get the breaks. I thought Phil Dowd had a disappointing night." Slur alex
After being robbed by Chelsea and the officials at the weekend, you can't begrudge them that victory. (And I hate Dave Whelan.)
First defeat at the DW stadium eh? Well Brucie old boy isn't in charge anymore to let his old boss have his usual 6 points.
I just saw the handball penalty claim, and I have to say it's a pretty good example of a big team not getting a big decision.
Can't see what role Chelsea players had in that at all.
Ivanovic's foul on Maloney in the lead up to Mata's winning goal.
robust contact but no foul.
No offence, but I've never liked Chelsea so I'll always think the worst of them . . . so I consider it more than a "robust" challenge.
After the abuse heaped on Young where are the plaudits for Welbeck not going down after clearly being pulled back in the area?
And why is it that no one seem to be interested in naming and shaming the defender that deliberately cheated to deny him a chance at goal either.
Indeed match reports fail to mention the incident at all.
How very odd?
Bound to be tense at this stage of the season but I watched the game in a pub full of Utd supporters ( all the City ones had gone to their home game) and the general view was that Utd were poor with only one shot that the Wigan keeper had to save and that Wigan were better and deserved to win.
FA Cup and Champs league over the next seven days for those of us still in those competitions
It's a conspiracy...
Thank goodness for the inate decency of Manchester United on show as Fergie was his usual avuncular self in criticising the decision to deny Wigan a perfectly good goal...
How very odd....
it is interesting, and i think is kind of the point Revol was making.
My take is that in those instances the ire Is directed more at the ref for failing to spot it whereas with a dive the player more is at fault for trying to deceive the ref.
Don't you all know it's the Abu Dhabi dollar coming into play? We bought an expensive team. That doesn't seem to have worked so we're just buying referees now.
There has be no'ire' in press that I noticed directed at either ref or linesman for the failure to spot either the inescapable handball or the equally blatant tug back in the area. Had it been the other way round of course...?
Also note the take by the now banned QPR player is describing his stiff arm push on Young as 'a coming togther'. LOL.
i was think from personal point of view really, but as far as the general public view it... no sympathy for the devil I suppose!
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