Discussion in 'world politics, current affairs and news' started by danny la rouge, May 31, 2010.
its better than blowing up a tube train
go for it then.
cant, george galloway's in the fucking way
So, 'the largest bloc' on the march were chanting 'death to israel', but not all of the largest bloc and not for very long?
How many people were chanting it and for how long?
You need to rein that imagination in, Froggy
I don't see how duration is a factor.
A free Palestine is a better aspiration than an existing racist state. I don't know why you hate the idea so
I'm trying to gain a picture of what happened, from Smokedout's point of view, and how that tallies with that of others who were there
aye - dont wanna give em ideas
It is because if it's of short duration it's probably because people around are telling them to pack it in.
A Jewish Israeli friend of mine is married to a Palestinian. They cannot live together in Israel. He cannot go with her and their daughter to see the grandparents in Israel.
This is what the slogan is about - freedom of movement and an equal right to live and work in the whole of historic Palestine. Most Palestinians favour a one state solution, but know pragmatically that only a two state solution is on the table and most will support this, including Hamas, if it is the best offer on the table. But whilst Palestine would vote for a single secular democratic state, Israelis tend to see the one state solution as meaning genocide, one way or the other and the idea has only recently started to gain ground there.
and the phrase palestine will be free, from the river to the sea, you really don't see how that could encourage such a fear?
spion,what i saw was a more dominant and virulant and more importantly organised anti-israeili (not israel) and possibly hamas supporting faction than i have seen before
and that, as a supporter of the aims of the march, there was a short period where i felt ashamed to be where i was, it was fucking horrible in fact
^^ this. I have little problem with the "river to the sea" slogan tbh, and it's quite ironic to see supposed anti-zionists raising it as something "objectionable".
eta: just seen your post smokedout, aye good point about encouraging the fear, although it's hardly the only one to do so - and there did seem to be a few more twats on the demo than there usually was, like that cunt kicking off at the hamburger stall. i hope they arrested some of them. im glad i didn't see that shit ...
how about israel will be free, from the river to the sea?
this might get me some flak on here but i don't agree with the two state solution as i don't think it's practical in the long term, and i thought the slogan was about the one state solution.
it's a bit politically naive and I see the point about various connotations it could have but honestly? it definitely doesn't have the same connotations as people cheering for hamas and shouting "shame on you" at the army and other islamist bollocks.
yep right,i see what you mean, but i don't think it's what it's intended to be. it could be taken that way by israelis and others under the circumstances though ...
fwiw i tihnk you're probably right about a larger proportion of pro-hamas supporters on the demo than in previous years, and i think in part this has something to do with the political situation of britain , the polarisation that is taking place between some sections of the muslim community and others in the uk - not to excuse it, but to me its an extra reason to keep going to things like this to show that not everyone who agrees with this stuff is like this ...
but the same people doing that were also the ones leading the from the river etc chant, which is considered anti-semitic by a lot of people probably because its easily perceived as a chant calling for the end to israel
thats slightly different from a call for a one state, secular solution
i agree most of the people chanting it were politically naive, i dont believe the ones who started it were though
sorry missed your posts
i'm not sure it is enough just to keep going, im not really sure what impact it makes anyway, im not sure apathy helps much either, but thats how saturday left me feeling
i felt a bit shit and dirty because i didnt confront it, in my defence, sober and alone as i was i didnt fancy taking on what seemed a pretty strong posse
what concerned me most is that most of the more seemingly 'moderate' people around didnt even seem to notice
take your point mate. i have no idea how much impact demos make, probably very little to be honest what i mean is it isn't a reason not to stop doing things for palestinian activism etc, (or any other kind) , just because people like this are wishing to highjack it. Its tough tho innit
I'd assumed that "river to the sea" slogan was the Social Workers... naff enough rhyme/scansion...
I've been poking around. The great majority of references to it appear to be outraged Zionists.
Like this member of Avigdor Lieberman's right wing Yisrael Beiteinu party.
Logically, of course, the answer is: "you have a problem with being free?" Logic, however...
Wasnt there some live footage on the morning just before they jammed it , Im sure I saw them boarding and hearing guns live , has it not surfaced , I think I was watching Aljazeera was this it ?
As an ideal, obviously a one state outcome would be preferable. However, it has long been my belief - and it is indeed the belief of the "international community", ie the political elites - that the two state solution is much more achievable. In pragmatic terms, I'd rather see a swift, unsatisfactory outcome, than condemn the Palestinians (and, yes, the Israelis) to decades more of the current situation, for the sake of holding out for a more "ideologically pure", but unachievable goal. This view was reinforced whenever I have spoken to Palestinians about it.
However, a glance at a map shows you immediate problems with the two state solution: the West Bank and Gaza are isolated from each other. So, for a two state solution to work (for Palestinians to have freedom of movement "from the River to the Sea") you'd need a vastly changed mindset in Israel. This has more recently caused me to question the two state solution: if such fundamental mindset changing is required in Israel (or, in the Israeli political elite) for the two state solution to work, why settle for second best? Why not go for a secular, democratic unitary state, in which Palestinians and Israelis feel equally empowered?
I haven't settled on supporting the unitary state option as the only goal worth supporting. But I do think working on the Israeli mindset is the only way any change will come.
a) Israel is free
b) Israel is specifically jewish as an idea
c) Palestine is not restricted to one ethnic group. There are and have historically been muslim, christian and jewish Palestinians
A copper-jacketed lead sandwich.
A little insight into Israeli opinion on the matter (likely to raise your blood pressure):
So now you are reduced to simply posting unadulterated Israeli propaganda on the site. Have a look around, maybe you can tell us about the luxury swimming pools etc.
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